Re: Go Back! I'll Be Waiting!

1

For all that I revel in poetic justice, etc., I remain uncomfortable with outing.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 7:39 AM
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I understand your discomfort, but if you go to a protest and hold a "Go back in the closet" sign, you really are asking for it. Also, I'm pretty convinced that the outing campaigns of the 80s and 90s moved gay rights forward faster than anything else possibly could have.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 8:03 AM
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The kid's postion is consistent.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 8:08 AM
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I am basically with Apo on this one.

Hiding the gayness is bad, bad, bad.

They get lead down a path of getting married and having families. But, eventually, they cannot represss it.

My gf's ex-hubby was gay. Knew it before they got married, but couldnt hold it in. Not a nice thing to do to someone.

I've done a bunch of divorces like that. If you are gay, DONT MARRY A WOMAN!!!!!!


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 8:13 AM
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If you are gay, DONT MARRY A WOMAN!!!!!!

Unless, of course, you are a woman.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 8:18 AM
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There isn't really too much new and insightful to say on this one, but hey, at least he's getting all this sorted out good and early. A lot of these kids who are fascists with themselves turn out all right in the end--their hurtful politics are partly founded on the desire to hurt and punish themselves, and once they get that under control a bit, they calm down. You see the same thing with certain left types; although the politics aren't usually as poisonous, there's that same desire to destroy all the parts of yourself that you see as weak--that is, human and ordinary. I think that if this kid is telling people that he's gay at age 18, there's some hope for him.


Posted by: Frowner | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 8:19 AM
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5:

Exactly.

Wait, actually, I am basically anti-marriage anyway. So I'll amend it to "Don't get married!"


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 8:21 AM
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In fact, to continue: if you click the link here, there's a link to this kid's MySpace page--friends with guns and lots of stupidity. I know left wing kids like that (or rather I knew them when they were younger and now they're different). Not so hateful, but just as rigid and self-punishing.


Posted by: Frowner | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 8:21 AM
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"their hurtful politics are partly founded on the desire to hurt and punish themselves,"

With this and the abortion thread, Unfogged is becoming the blog of hair shirts and stones in the shoes.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 8:22 AM
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I'm quibbling here, probably, but it occurs to me that when we talk of these things "embarassing" the Republicans, it just sort reinforces the idea that being gay is something to be embarassed by. I mean, I know, I know you don't mean that, that you are talking about how they should be embarassed by their hypocrisy. But my guess is that's not how the people who hold these views see it. They're just embarassed that some 18 year-old homosexual hoodwinked them or that it's been revealed that they have had friendly contact with a homosexual.

It seems right, though, to focus on the sad part. Because it is truly sad, in a way that doesn't lend itself well to the "he asked for it by holding the sign" approach. The sad thing is that the cultural environment these movements have created/reinforce made this young man so ashamed of who he was that he felt compelled to hide that -- to the extent of holding up a very literal sign of his self-loathing. Not at all unlike the girl in the abortion thread below who went out to protest the day after her own abortion. If they don't do these things, after all, what will the people they're surrounded with think of them. And especially for kids that age, that's huge.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 8:23 AM
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Wouldn't want my sister to marry one.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 8:23 AM
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"They're just embarassed that some 18 year-old homosexual hoodwinked them or that it's been revealed that they have had friendly contact with a homosexual."

It is still very interesting how homosexuality is viewed.

Our friends had a huge party against Virginia's horrible anti-gay marriage amendment.

My gf and I were almost the only heterosexual couple there. Since we were frequently separated at the party, people would ask who I was with at the party. I could feel myself almost get defensive when I said "my gf."


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 8:30 AM
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11 -- a gay man, or a Republican?


Posted by: Clownaesthesiologist | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 8:32 AM
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I wanna hit you with the GAYBOMB GAYBOMB GAYBOMB.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 8:35 AM
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It's high time people stopped being embarrassed by being homosexual or being with homosexuals.
Case in point -- "don't ask don't tell."

It's telling that the GOP prez candidates think the policy is working and should continue, while the Dem prez candidates all say gays should serve openly in the Army (like they do in European and Israeli Armies).

Fact is, most people under 30 aren't embarrassed by being homosexual or being with homosexuals (Republicans excepted), while many older people are, like most of our generals. Our young soldiers don't give two hoots about the issue. Neither should this young man. Where does his self-hatred spring from?


Posted by: Adam Ash | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 8:43 AM
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Where does his self-hatred spring from?

His religion and his parents would be my first two guesses.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 8:47 AM
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"and by virtue of either breathing or having their skin exposed to this chemical, the notion was that soliders would become gay," explained Hammond.

Green M&Ms. There. I've just saved millions of dollars. Credit it to my taxes.


Posted by: Populuxe | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 8:49 AM
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14: Apo, did you catch the great Freudian slip typo in that one: "The notion was that a chemical that would probably be pleasant in the human body in low quantities could be identified, and by virtue of either breathing or having their skin exposed to this chemical, the notion was that soliders would become gay," explained Hammond. [Emphasis added.]


Posted by: minneapolitan | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 8:50 AM
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Unless there's information that I'm missing, I'm not sure where the sense that the guy is afflicted with self-hatred comes from. David Brock has talked (or written) about the fact that he, Ingram, and Coulter would take one public position on cultural matters and live another in the 80s.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 8:52 AM
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I know I'm serious-ing up the thread to no real purpose when it clearly cries out for wit and punning, but:

15: Amongst the great self-haters and -punishers I've met, the specific mechanism for hating and punishing was less important than the act itself; that is, if this young fellow weren't gay (and if my psychologizing is correct) he'd be inflicting pain on himself through some other kind of rigidity and foolishness. In fact, you might argue that (again, if I am correct) he's fortunate to be gay so that he'll get kicked out of nasty fascist circles; they probably wouldn't have any serious problem with him if he were just secretly crushingly depressed and unhappy, or drank too much, or sabotaged his every friendship and relationship.


Posted by: Frowner | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 8:56 AM
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If someone's career, rise to power or other claim to fame is based on hypocritical homophobia and the closet then I am 100% in favor of outing them for political gain. They asked for it. It is that simple. They. Asked. For. It. They - he, rather, this kid - he has chosen consciously to try to make my and my boyfriend's lives worse for his own gain. Outing such people is self-defense, pure and simple, and I'd do it just as fast as I'd punch any one of them in the mouth if they stepped foot on my land.

That he's 18 doesn't make this sad or tragic, it's one of the few rays of hope. The kid has time to get his psyche together in a way that will help him avoid ruining other people's lives while denying himself one of his own.


Posted by: Robust McManlyPants | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 8:56 AM
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Outing such people is self-defense,

I guess, for me, it comes down to a question of how powerful the person is. At eighteen, he can only just vote on these policies, after all.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 8:58 AM
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Sorry about the violent fantasy there, but people like this - and objections to outing them, frankly - get my back up in a rare way. It brings out the archetypal hillbilly in me.


Posted by: Robust McManlyPants | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 8:59 AM
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20: I'm just theorizing...it's perfectly possible that this guy is just a ruthless sociopath who thinks that he should be as gay as he wants while using homosexuality to punish others.

The only thing that really suggests personal unease is the deep-seated folly of telling your ideologically-nasty friends that you're gay. If this guy is really just a party-disciplined wing-bot, I'd expect a bit more smarts, but being really conflicted at 18 makes the whole thing make a lot more sense.

I mean, I was really conflicted at 18, and I wasn't even a closeted right-winger.


Posted by: Frowner | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 9:00 AM
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At eighteen, he can only just vote on these policies, after all.

And be the webmaster for a Republican presidential candidate and be called "a rising star" and go to marches waving signs that read GO BACK IN THE CLOSET. I completely understand if you disagree but any one of those is enough for me to move him from the category of "it's their pathetic business" to "acceptable target."


Posted by: Robust McManlyPants | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 9:01 AM
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Tim, hmm, I don't know. I can sort of understand the idea of taking one position in public and another in private -- run-of-the-mill hypocrisy. Like lecturing your kids about the dangers of smoking, then sneaking out back for a cigarette.

But when the public position is one that isn't merely contrary to your private actions, but deeply hateful of them, I can't imagine sustaining that hateful position without some hidden sense of self-loathing underlying it. Part of that, perhaps, is my inability to imagine how anyone could take any openly hateful position without being motivated by some genuine hatred.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 9:02 AM
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I totally support outing people like this, honestly, for their good as well as the good of society as a whole. It's not a pleasant, easy-going thing to do to someone, but how are they better-served by heading off into life as a closeted fascist?


Posted by: Frowner | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 9:03 AM
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Robust is gay!

It had to be said.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 9:04 AM
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If the gay bomb gets you, you get discharged.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 9:04 AM
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Pants's back's up....mmm, tasty.

Yeah, I can understand why you'd feel that way. It's hard, from the outside, I think, to make sense of outing because we lack some critical context--maybe about community standards, maybe about other things. But outing really depends on the outsiders to have any effect, which somehow implicates us in the decision. I can't tell how much of my discomfort is a function of being a necessary part of a process in which I don't feel I understand all of the issues well enough to make a decision.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 9:05 AM
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If this guy is really just a party-disciplined wing-bot, I'd expect a bit more smarts, but being really conflicted at 18 makes the whole thing make a lot more sense.

Coulter and Ingraham knew Brock was gay. Hard to believe there are more ideologically nasty people than those two.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 9:06 AM
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32

I favor outing such people. Also, tickling.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 9:07 AM
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33

Brock is gay? Huh. That makes his narrative all the wierder.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 9:13 AM
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Frowner, I see where you're coming from, but it still doesn't sit right with me. I have a hard time believing that publically humiliating a conflicted kid is going to positively affect him or his interactions with the world. It may well be the right political response to his public political positions, but I still feel sorry for the guy.

I guess I'm just feeling all soft and empathetic today. I didn't necessarily have my head on straight at 18.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 9:19 AM
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31: I can definitely (try to) understand that it looks nasty and hateful from the outside. I can't hypothesize an analogous situation off the top of my head that would put me on the outside of a similar decision - not because they don't exist but because I'm insufficiently imaginative. From the inside, though, it all becomes terribly personal for me. Someone who is gay and goes to gay pride marches to wave anti-gay signs and is building a career as an anti-queer political operative is someone I perceive as directly menacing my family, my home, my life. Whether that perception is accurate or inflated or insufficient is something I simply don't have the tools to judge. The part of me that would do anything to protect Rah is incapable of making those assessments in any rational way.

In ancient, angrier and more substance-abusive days I was so full of hate and rage that I would gleefully sign up to be a volunteer "peace keeper" for NC Pride marches and that part of me - in the minority but noisome - would hope against hope that some hater would try to start something so I could channel a lot of anger and frustration into the flow of their blood. That part of me is much smaller now, tiny, but it's still there and when I think of the leadership of the anti-queer mob, the movers and shakers, the "rising stars," that part of me makes a grab for the wheel.


Posted by: Robust McManlyPants | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 9:24 AM
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Crap, 31 s/b 30.


Posted by: Robust McManlyPants | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 9:24 AM
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37

Anything that helps this kid face up to the truth, is good.
He's still 18, he needs teachable moments like this. Outing him is doing him a favor, besides being a form of self-defense against his nastiness.


Posted by: Adam Ash | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 9:25 AM
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my inability to imagine how anyone could take any openly hateful position without being motivated by some genuine hatred.

I'm pretty sure that Coulter is exactly this type, one who takes hateful positions, but is not motivated at all by hate. She's simply a sociopathic fame-seeker: Brock's reports confirm this.

There may be an additional wrinkle to her, in that now she has said so many ridiculous things that she has simply lost track of the very idea of truth. Still her dominant emotion is embodied by the little glow she gets when people applaud her laugh lines, not any burning hatred of anyone.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 9:25 AM
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there's a link to this kid's MySpace page--friends with guns and lots of stupidity.

Lots of stupidity? He has poor taste in books, music, movies, etc., but not taste which is particularly surprising for someone of his age and political profile. What struck you in particular as stupid?


Posted by: washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 9:33 AM
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Di Kotimy is feeling soft and empathetic?!??! Don't you people see that she is lying?!??!!?

She is an insurance defense lawyer!! Mean and nasty is what she is!!!


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 9:35 AM
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Lots of stupidity? He has poor taste in books, music, movies, etc., but not taste which is particularly surprising for someone of his age and political profile. What struck you in particular as stupid?

The contents of his friends' comments, I imagine.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 9:36 AM
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Funny, Ive been a right-winger (when much younger) and now a left-winger out of smug sense of superiority and lazy noblesse oblige.


Posted by: yoyo | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 9:36 AM
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Di, I'm actually thinking about a situation I'm familiar with--I know someone who did a really bad thing and was called out about it and lost all their friends. And that was what it took for this person to get a grip and to change. (I'm being deliriously unspecific since the intertubes are so big.) This was likewise a person who--I think--was pretty unhappy about some stuff, couldn't articulate it and didn't have a sympathetic support structure. So I know that being outed is in many ways a lousy thing to have happen. I feel pretty sorry for the kid, because being a byword on the internet is going to suck, and being revealed to all as a hypocrite in a really personal way is also going to be pretty terrible. But what is the alternative? A life of being closeted, being conflicted and doing your best to do terrible harm to others.


Posted by: Frowner | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 9:39 AM
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Coulter and Ingraham knew Brock was gay.

One of my college friends ran our campus' College Republican organization. He left the party when he came out of the closet, but before that he spent a summer working for Jack Kemp and having all the gay sex he wanted with one of his fellow pollsters. So, yeah. Unless it has changed a lot since then, my impression is that the Party doesn't care too much what their members do as long as they keep it quiet and/or are willing to look the other way at the official hate.


Posted by: Populuxe | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 9:40 AM
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We throw around this term "sociopathic" a lot. At this point does it just mean bad people?


Posted by: text | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 9:43 AM
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39: Oh, I didn't even look at the movies and music. I think his political taste is really crude, even for being 18, though. And the comments and the pictures, again, were fairly dumb even for 18--the guy with the gun, the general air of smugness and vanity.

I emphasize, though, that I am sympathetic to this fellow, the little I know of him. And honestly, I have a long history of off-kilter friendships with highly-ideological young conservatives. They remind me of me, character-wise though not politics-wise, and we usually hit it off very well.


Posted by: Frowner | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 9:44 AM
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gay sex he wanted with one of his fellow pollsters

Are all pollsters gay? My anecdotal evidence says: yes!


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 9:44 AM
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48

Is "polester" too easy?


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 9:46 AM
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what about polestorers?


Posted by: yoyo | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 9:48 AM
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My anecdotal evidence says: yes!

So does mine! It must be true!


Posted by: Populuxe | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 9:49 AM
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Screw "I'm okay with outing in this situation"--what, honestly, is the real problem with outing people, full stop? Fine, they'll lose their homophobic friends. Big whoop. It could upset their homophobic family members, uh huh, and? If they're married and have kids that's gonna be hard on the spouse and sprogs, but y'know, I honestly think this is the kind of thing that people can process and live with. It's not as if quitting your job or whatever and having to move to a major urban center is the worst fucking fate in the world.

I mean, sure: if someone's living an innocuously miserable closeted life, they're pitiable, and I'm not particularly interested in meddling with people's private lives. But honestly, you gotta figure that in the long run getting outed has gotta be better for them than not.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 9:51 AM
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All of his exapades followed the same pattern. First plastered, then pollstered. Until the wee, wee hours of the morning.


Posted by: Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 9:51 AM
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53

well i tend to be against telling other people how to live their life, even if it looks pretty fucked up from my own perspective, especially if i don't know the particulars of their person


Posted by: yoyo | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 9:53 AM
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54

B, are there any other life-altering choices you'd like to make for people?


Posted by: Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 9:53 AM
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Oh now, Will, it is from the depths of my empathy that I am an insurance defense lawyer. I am so damned empathetic that I can even feel for the poor, malgned insurance companies who are just constantly getting taken advantage of by nasty old injured people and their lawyers.

Also, I'm not actually a very good insurance defense lawyer.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 9:54 AM
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51 - I can imagine a situation in which a person is not closeted to his or her friends, but doesn't want his or her family or, in particular, employers to know, in which case outing generally strikes me as the height of dickishness.


Posted by: snarkout | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 9:55 AM
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Whoa, it's one thing to say that you're in favor of outing as political self-defense, but this "you're doing him a favor" rhetoric is a little scary. Generally we think people are best situated to make choices for themselves, so even if we think that so-and-so would be better off his parents knew he were gay, we don't go and tell them; that's just simple good sense.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 9:55 AM
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BitchPHd:

Since your lifestyle is not necessarily the norm, would you want people telling your family and friends?


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 9:55 AM
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51: B, to paraphrase, well, you: The question is, do you trust gay people to decide for themselves when and if to be out?


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 9:56 AM
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Wait, wait, is this that provocation thing we're supposed to ignore?


Posted by: Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 9:57 AM
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I agree with 56. If the person isn't doing any harm to the gay rights cause, and he isn't hurting other people by pretending to love them, and he doesn't like being the center of attention, then don't make him the center of attention.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 9:58 AM
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I think the lifeguard should know how old Ogged actually is.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 9:58 AM
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Frowner made a similar point.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 9:58 AM
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I'll do B the respect of assuming she's trolling.


Posted by: Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 9:59 AM
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We throw around this term "sociopathic" a lot. At this point does it just mean bad people?

I try to use it in the technical sense of having a pathological inability to feel empathy, leading one to treat all relationships as an opportunity to game people for personal profit.

I would not say that empathy is either necessary or sufficient for being a moral person. Some very Kantian souls might manage to be moral out of a pure sense of duty, and certainly many manage to feel great compassion while still being wretched. Nevertheless empathy is the root of most moral behavior in most people.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 10:01 AM
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D00dz, I said sure: if someone's living an innocuously miserable closeted life, they're pitiable, and I'm not particularly interested in meddling with people's private lives by way of signalling that I'm not going around outing people and that yes, on the "don't mess with people's private lives" front, it's not something I'd recommend. All I'm saying is that other than that I don't get why outing is So Very Awful. Aren't you the same folks that recommended that SEK tell his friend that her husband was a cheating dog?

Anyway, to answer Will's question which I knew would come up, obviously I'd prefer people not do that, primarily b/c my mother in law would be terribly upset and pesty, my dad would be pesty, and my mom would pretend to be all cool with it and pesty. But all the various siblings have either been told or found out and y'know, it really wasn't so bad.

If someone were doing it just to be mean, then well that would be mean. In the long run it probably wouldn't be a huge deal--all the 'rents have to die sometime. If there were a big political campaign to recognize the rights of open relationship types to, say, get health insurance for their second partners or somesuch, and someone outed me because as a Big Internet Celebrity doing so might help the cause, I couldn't have blame them.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 10:02 AM
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Frowner made a similar point.

It differed, if not in kind, then by an appreciable degree. I took Frowner to be considering the case where the closeted person is doing harm to more people than just him/herself.


Posted by: Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 10:02 AM
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I'm not really trolling, just throwing in with McManly and Apo and saying, to boot, that being an out gay man or lesbian doesn't seem like such a terrible fate.

Y'all can ignore me, though, b/c I'ma take a long nap and get caught up on my sleep.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 10:04 AM
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Aren't you the same folks that recommended that SEK tell his friend that her husband was a cheating dog?

Nobody took that decision out of his hands, though.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 10:04 AM
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Aren't you the same folks that recommended that SEK tell his friend that her husband was a cheating dog?

We should take the analogy ban seriously.


Posted by: Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 10:06 AM
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Brock is gay

Crap, 4 was posted too late to help him I guess.


Posted by: Clownaesthesiologist | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 10:07 AM
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Generally I think that if one chooses to live a life of misery, well, that's their choice. Someone who is closeted and married and had kids and is not actively working to make life worse for anyone else, just enduring their own self-imposed hell, isn't my business. When they choose to join the front lines on the other side it's another story.


Posted by: Robust McManlyPants | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 10:08 AM
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That said, I think B raises an interesting point and that universal outing is probably the natural answer to the concern that outing people for being hypocrites furthers the cause of homophobia by appropriating it as a tool of humiliation and I appreciate her stance in favor of being out as Not Hellish. It isn't. The transition periods can be freaky, no doubt, and it's that forced transition that makes me shy away from universal outing.

Also, I heard that the closeted spouse down the street totally hangs out around trolleys.


Posted by: Robust McManlyPants | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 10:12 AM
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67: Well, I'm not in favor of running around looking for closeted gay people in order to out them. On a political level, I feel that we just can't as a society countenance someone making a political career off of hatred for a group/practice/belief while secretly being a member of that group/sharing that practice/believing that thing. This just breeds cynicism and reinforces the belief that political positions should just be tools to advance yourself.

On a personal level, I think that if you're telling people at age 18 that you're gay, you probably want, on some level, to be out. Maybe not to everyone all at once (which is where this is a tough thing) but eventually. I wouldn't out someone who wasn't a political figure and who asked me not to, though.


Posted by: Frowner | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 10:12 AM
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"I try to use it in the technical sense of having a pathological inability to feel empathy"

Then I would think that it shouldn't be used very often. Even Ann Coulter, a person I don't admire very much, may have deep wells of empathy, for all I know. It's a pretty horrific state to be in, to lack empathy, and I'm not sure we should accuse it of anyone without actually having spoken to her.


Posted by: text | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 10:22 AM
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Gore Vidal actually wrote a play/movie about this subject, a long time ago (1964?) called The Best Man. Armed with information about his sleazy opponent's homosexuality, Henry Fonda decides not to use it. This is supposed to be a moral decision, and I always found it persuasive.

This said, times have changed.

B, of course cannot possibly be serious; down that road lies the treatment of people as things, rather than ends in themselves. But I'll leave that to the philosophers.


Posted by: slolernr | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 10:27 AM
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53 is best read as a response to the thread a few evenings back.


Posted by: Clownaesthesiologist | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 10:28 AM
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75: It is a strong word, no doubt. But also an excellent explanation for how someone could espouse a hateful positions without feeling actual hatred. (Although, I suppose if you are the object of the mistreatment, it matters little whether the person so treating you actively hates you or just doesn't give a shit how you feel.)


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 10:29 AM
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I'm not sure why the relevant question here is whether outing the kid is defensible in terms of the kid himself, or the good of society in general -- the latter of which is a somewhat interesting question -- rather than in terms of its speculated effect on Tom Tancredo's presidential run.

Badly written, that.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 10:29 AM
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I heard that the closeted spouse down the street totally hangs out around trolleys

Is "trolleys" some kind of "street" lingo, or does it mean "trolleys"?


Posted by: slolernr | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 10:29 AM
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I'm not sure why the relevant question here is whether outing the kid is defensible in terms of the kid himself

For the same reason that you ought to ask whether the cost of anything is worth the potential benefits.


Posted by: slolernr | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 10:31 AM
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re: 78

Plus, lots of studies suggest that there really are quite a lot of sociopaths around. So, public figures who behave like sociopaths? There's a non-negligible chance that they actually are sociopaths.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 10:32 AM
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76 - wasn't there a movie made from that, which replaced gayness with Jewishness? It might have been Gentlemen's Agreement, or something more controversial.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 10:34 AM
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80 -- I think it's some kind of "ethicist" lingo.


Posted by: Clownaesthesiologist | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 10:34 AM
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Sure, but is our ability to recognize the public figures as such non-negligible? What is the standard we're applying? I don't think all contradictory or hypocritical people should be labeled psychopaths or sociopaths. We all contradict ourselves, to some degree.


Posted by: text | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 10:37 AM
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I'd be surprised if it were Gentlemen's Agreement, in which Peck pretends to be Jewish and encounters anti-Semitism. Pretending to out himself.

But I may not remember. It was shown us at church camp, so it must be forty years.


Posted by: I don't pay | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 10:39 AM
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85 - this may be a situation in which people should use "I statements" and whatever those other things are that family therapists recommend.

e.g. "Ann Coulter behaves sociopathically", not "Ann Coulter is a sociopath". After all the conservative movement demands that someone fill her role, and it's impossible to find someone who actually believes what she claims to believe while also being slick and media-friendly enough to fit in on talk shows, so there she is, saying sociopathic things.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 10:41 AM
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re: 85

Yeah, however, having read more than a few articles on sociopathy, I'm certain I've met some, and I'm also certain I've observed some in public life. Have I got a few false positives? Probably. Some false negatives? Certainly.

It doesn't mean the term is entirely without value.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 10:42 AM
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The movie version of The Best Man is called The Best Man.


Posted by: slolernr | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 10:42 AM
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Do I contradict myself? Very well then, I contradict myself. I am large (IYKWIM), I contain multitudes of the same thing.


Posted by: Walt Whitman | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 10:42 AM
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But the movie The Best Man doesn't replace gayness with Jewishness as the stigmatized aspect of the guy.

I guess I'm thinking of a movie with a different plot anyway.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 10:45 AM
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87 & 88 both sound about right to me.


Posted by: text | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 10:47 AM
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Half of all unfogged commenters: sociopaths!


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 10:48 AM
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re: outings and their effect on the rest of the family

I think that this thread underestimates the effect of outing someone (and the consequences) on the family & kids of that person. I have a few friends whose fathers came out after being married for several years (though voluntarily), and in one case the pressure of being out was too much and he killed himself. A father's suicide is a lot to for a young child to bear.

This (suicide) happened decades ago, but I think that the atmosphere in a conservative community might be not so far from (large urban centre) Canada 20+ yrs ago. And suicide is a not-unforeseeable consequence to being outed, especially if that brings the rest of your life crashing down.

That said, I favour outing if the person is actively working to harm queer people and/or their families. But B's dismissive handwave towards the family & kids is a bit much.


Posted by: parodie | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 10:49 AM
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For the same reason that you ought to ask whether the cost of anything is worth the potential benefits.

Understood, and it's an open question. Are we as loathe to 'out' hypocritical intellectual positions on the part of influential public figures? It may cost them their jobs, after all, with attendant disruption in their personal lives. And we do it all the time.

No, I'm not dismissing the moral burden involved in outing this kid, but I'm with McManly Pants here.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 10:50 AM
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93 -- which half?


Posted by: Clownaesthesiologist | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 10:51 AM
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uh, loath? Rather than "loathe"?


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 10:53 AM
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Are we as loathe to 'out' hypocritical intellectual positions on the part of influential public figures?

Like what? We're almost certainly in bad analogy territory here. There's something specifically intimate about sexuality that doesn't apply to your opinions about the labor theory of value, or whatever.

I agree, it's an open question, and generally I'm in favor of fighting a bit dirtier and being a little less high-minded. Honestly, if Tancredo himself were secretly gay (or in his case, an immigrant) I'd say it's fair game. I'm not as certain about the staff, especially staff only just this side of being a minor. I'd like to keep the question a live one.

God, I hate being the reasonable one. Someone say something outrageous I can agree with.


Posted by: slolernr | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 10:55 AM
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Someone say something outrageous I can agree with.

Rafael Nadal is totally hott.


Posted by: Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 10:57 AM
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I'm old, SB. I don't know who that is.


Posted by: slolernr | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 10:59 AM
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Rafael Nadal is totally hott.

So wrong!


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 10:59 AM
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He's one of the stars of the new caveman sit-com.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 11:00 AM
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Wouldn't it be awesome if it turned out Tancredo were only an American by virtue of birthright citizenship?


Posted by: slolernr | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 11:00 AM
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There's a new caveman sitcom?


Posted by: slolernr | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 11:00 AM
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Like a good Frenchman, ogged hates Spaniards. Ho hum.


Posted by: Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 11:02 AM
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There's a new caveman sitcom?

Have you seen those Geico caveman ads?


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 11:03 AM
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I think that this thread underestimates the effect of outing someone (and the consequences) on the family & kids of that person.

Interestingly, my brother doesn't out himself to our extended family for his own sake, but for the sake of others in the family. My mother's relations with her brother and his family would be demolished, and this would be a very bad thing to do to her. She knows he's gay, but would really rather others not know.

Shame is an evil, powerful, corrosive thing.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 11:03 AM
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Shame is an evil, powerful, corrosive thing.

But it also has major upside.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 11:05 AM
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I thought Geico had a lizard.


Posted by: slolernr | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 11:06 AM
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108: She mentioned the corrosion.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 11:06 AM
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But it also has major upside.

ogged wins this one hands down.


Posted by: slolernr | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 11:07 AM
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Geico has, like, thirty goddamn mascots.


Posted by: Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 11:07 AM
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Geico:other insurance companies::lizards:cavemen?


Posted by: slolernr | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 11:08 AM
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Geico has a gecko, and cavemen. They were both created 6,000 years ago.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 11:12 AM
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Along with the insurance companies, naturally.


Posted by: slolernr | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 11:15 AM
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Geico has a *gecko*

Surely it is also accurate to say that Geico has a lizard?


Posted by: Clownaesthesiologist | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 11:17 AM
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"But it also has major upside."

Blackmail?

Better results in a divorce?


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 11:22 AM
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Bah, Bah, Bah!

In the commune, of course, everyone is honest (and clever, and cries sometimes), and says things like, "Honey, this is deeply troubling, but I can't live like this, we need to talk, clear the path, you see, and it will be all be alright, really, so don't be afraid, because I'm just me, always just me, and you're just you."

See.

ahem.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 11:24 AM
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114 - Geico has repudiated young-earth creationism in favor of the irreducible collision premium argument presented in Dawin's Black Box.


Posted by: snarkout | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 11:25 AM
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Parsimon gets in the commune if she wants. She can be our Communication Facilitator, unless she wants another job.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 11:27 AM
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Bah, Bah, Bah!

From Geico's newest mascot, the emphysemic sheep.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 11:33 AM
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120 -- Can I get in? I will entertain you guys with funny clown shows, even after you ask me politely to stop.


Posted by: Clownaesthesiologist | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 11:39 AM
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That's what they're worried about.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 11:41 AM
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Clown:

Like others, I am scared of Clowns.

What else can you do?


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 11:44 AM
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99 I read this initially as "Ralph Nader is hott."


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 11:55 AM
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82: When my sister first read about sociopaths when she returned to school after her divorce, point after point reminded her of her ex-husband. She hasn't changed her mind after 18 years either.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 11:58 AM
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Yeah. It's the tendency to find these qualities in one's ex that causes me to suspect the diagnoses.


Posted by: text | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 12:00 PM
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Thanks for making that explicit, Ben.


Posted by: Clownaesthesiologist | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 12:01 PM
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Geico's caveman ad campaign is really funny. Actually.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 12:09 PM
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127 But some exes ARE sociopaths.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 12:09 PM
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yours?


Posted by: text | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 12:13 PM
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Of course.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 12:14 PM
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hope he's nobody I know.


Posted by: text | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 12:24 PM
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Di is sooooo wrong. All ex's are sociopaths.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 12:31 PM
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all my exes = are sociopathic = live in texas


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 12:37 PM
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The second assertion in 134 is in conflict with the first.


Posted by: Clownaesthesiologist | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 12:37 PM
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134: What kind of divorce lawyer are you anyway, Will? Obviously, 50% of all exes are sociopaths. The remaining 50% are mere, innocent victims.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 12:40 PM
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137:

Shhhhh. Nobody thinks of themselves as an ex, just a victim.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 12:41 PM
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All exes are sociopaths, but there are no exes. Everything is permitted.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 12:43 PM
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I am scared of Clowns. What else can you do?

Anaesthesia, obviously.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 12:44 PM
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140: A Clown administering anaesthesia. Nothing scary about that.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 12:46 PM
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140:

Isnt she that Russian Princess? She was hot in that disney movie.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 12:47 PM
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there are no exes

Everything in exes is opposed to nature.


Posted by: slolernr | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 12:50 PM
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Nothing scary about that

Not at all.


Posted by: Clownaesthesiologist | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 12:51 PM
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143: Amen, brother. Amen.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 12:51 PM
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My sister is a mental health professional and can make a pretty good case. The gun to her head is one piece of evidence. Kidnapping the kids is another. The fake suicide is another. His involvement with organized crime is another.

Sure, I know that all of you have wanted to do all of these things many times -- but did you follow through?

The clincher may have been the time he ranted on and on to my sister about some bad guy, Rush Limbaugh style, when he himself had done exactly the same thing that the bad guy had done -- to my sister. This shows a lack of empathy and self-awareness, and puts him in the sociopath pigeonhole rather than in the normal bad guy pigeonhole.

But maybe in some cultures these behaviors are normal, so my sister should examine herself for insensitivity.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 12:53 PM
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Way to go John. How are the rest of us going to bitch about our own ex now? "Pathological refusal to put the toilet seat down" just sounds so trivial next to gun to head, kidnapped kids, organized crime...


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 12:57 PM
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ok, John. my bad.


Posted by: text | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 1:04 PM
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The climactic moment from Vidal's play. Russell is the good guy, Cantwell the closeted bad guy. They're deadlocked for their party's presidential nomination. Russell could out Cantwell. He chooses instead to throw his delegates to a dark horse so that neither of them gets the nomination.

CANTWELL (slowly): I don't understand you.
RUSSELL: I know you don't. Because you have no sense of responsibility toward anybody or anything and that is a tragedy in a man and it is a disaster in a President! You said you were religious. Well, I'm not. But I believe profoundly in this life and what we do to one another and how this monstrous "I," the self, must become "we" and draw the line at murder in the games we play with one another, and try to be good even when there is no one to force us to be good.
(CANTWELL rises. He speaks carefully, without rancor)
CANTWELL: You don't understand me. You don't understand politics. You don't understand this country and the way it is and the way we are. You are a fool.
(CANTWELL goes, shutting the corridor door after him. RUSSELL shakes his head)
RUSSELL: We're not the way Joe [Cantwell] thinks we are. At least not yet.

Posted by: slolernr | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 1:22 PM
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The bad guy is named "Cantwell"?


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 1:24 PM
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funny how apt that speech is.


Posted by: text | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 1:28 PM
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149: So it's a farce?


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 1:29 PM
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Feel sorta bad for the kid, since being 'webmaster' isn't exactly a high-profile position and I'm pretty sure he wasn't prepared for any sort of scrutiny.

On the other hand, just how many of these crazy rightwing homophobes are gay?


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 1:52 PM
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107: I did the same thing for the sake of my mother for a while after I first came out, and it seriously and permanently (or at least so far) strained our relationship.

Outing people for sheer meanness is mean, of course, but I don't think I fall too far from B on this one. The kind of discomfort people often express when this subject comes up is an empathic response to a shame that shouldn't be there to begin with. I certainly think it's both deserved and sure to be beneficial in the end where this 18 yr old kid is concerned.

Fwiw, even when I was a closeted little wingnut myself, I had the decency to identify as libertarian precisely because I couldn't stand the personal authoritarianism of social conservatives re. sexuality, abortion, drugs, etc.


Posted by: cerebrocrat | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 1:56 PM
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118: And then they say "I think that it would be better for both of us if......"


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 1:59 PM
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When did this commune idea crop up? I feel I've missed something.

Re. outing, it seems like the consensus is that it's okay if someone is being a hypocrite. Which I interpret as meaning, it's okay if someone is a Bad Person. The punitive instinct bothers me, personally, more than my saying "what's so damn bad about being out?"

And yeah, I know there are people like Parsimon's family or the guy who shot himself or whoever, and that shit is fucked up. But part of why it happens is because people think that being gay/out is bad, y'see. I vote we stop enabling that shit.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 2:07 PM
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What do we mean by "out", btw? The mom-who-knows-but-let's-not-talk-about-it doesn't strike me as meaning that someone's closeted; discretion is not the same as hiding. Being out doesn't *have* to mean waving the rainbow flag at the family reunion.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 2:10 PM
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I think it's more being a hypocrite and a big target. The preacher dudes with their daily hellfire and gaystone speeches seem to be one thing, but a low-level staffer seems petty.

And while ideally, outing people wouldn't be a bad thing, that's not the world we live in. Plus, I don't think it's right to say "We're just outing him; it's not our fault society thinks that's bad." Because presumably, the only reason whoever outed this kid bothered is that it would cause him some public shame and embarass the campaign; if we truly didn't care about sexual orientation, we wouldn't out the kid. (Do we care about the sex lives of 18-year-old straight staffers? What about their abortion histories?)


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 2:14 PM
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Will is collecting people for his commune. I gather it's half The Most Dangerous Game, half The Island of Dr. Moreau, and half that joke where the farmer makes you shove your favorite fruit from his orchard up your ass.

"Why are you laughing so hard?" asked the farmer as the second guy stuck a banana up his butt.
"Jeff likes pineapples!"

Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 2:15 PM
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On the other hand, just how many of these crazy rightwing homophobes are gay?

Yup.


Posted by: DaveL | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 2:25 PM
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158: I'm okay with outing anti-choice spokespeople who have had abortions, and with outing sexually active people who participate in punishing women (and men) for sexual activity.

21 gets it. Once you think about from the position of someone who's being attacked, I think it's hard to knock at as uncivil. If the campaign doesn't want to be embarrassed, it can recover by disavowing homophobia, not the staffer. The kid is probably ready for some new friends, and there are probably some new friends who will take him in.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 2:26 PM
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If you really liked pineapples, wouldn't you just lie in that situation?


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 2:27 PM
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162 -- my memory of the joke indicates that each of the guys was separated from his buddies at the time he was asked his favorite fruit, and thus did not know what would be the upshot of indicating his preference.


Posted by: Clownaesthesiologist | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 2:34 PM
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I, personally, think people should talk more openly about their damn abortions, too.

That said, I reiterate: I do not actually talk about other people's abortions openly, nor their gayness unless they're out. Nonetheless.

159: Ok, thanks.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 2:35 PM
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The kid is probably ready for some new friends, and there are probably some new friends who will take him in.

I sure as hell hope so, but he's probably just going to be told that it's a big sin and all we're all sinners so as long as he represses it, he can marry a girl and have a nice life.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 2:39 PM
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In the commune, we talk openly about abortions (which would be free, by the way). But, since we have free birth control, there shouldn't be much involuntary pregnancy.

My favorite fruit is a blackberry.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 2:39 PM
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162: Not if you really liked pineapples.

(Clownae gaets it right.)


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 2:40 PM
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How many men are in this commune of yours, Will? B/c from what I've seen so far, it's you and a bunch of women.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 2:43 PM
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Wrongshore is in. He is ALL man and fertile too!

So is Jesus McQueen.

cerebrocrat can come if he asks bc you always need someone who knows about brains.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 2:45 PM
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165: It is true. He has the right to go back in the closet. It will suck, as it did before he was outed.

Outing people does bring with it an obligation to make out-of-the-closet more comfortable. But no part of fighting homophobia requires making the closet more comfortable.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 2:46 PM
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I'm not always sure who is a guy and who is a girl on this site.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 2:47 PM
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Three straight guys, Cerebrocrat (lucky him), and how many chicks?


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 2:49 PM
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169: Entertainment at the commune will consist of will and me playing nightly games of gay chicken. And laying fertile gay chicken eggs.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 2:49 PM
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We're all gradually becoming Standpipe.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 2:50 PM
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Standpipe is the singularity.


Posted by: slolernr | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 2:51 PM
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BitchPhd:

We are an inclusive commune. we don't keep track of those things.

Redfoxtail is definitely in, if she brings her recipes. Heebie is out. I dont remember the rest.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 2:53 PM
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Oh parsimon is our Communication Facilitator.

Jesus will be making wine.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 2:56 PM
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Better get on board fast. Within a generation it will just be time-shares and people named Standpipe.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 2:58 PM
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e kid is probably ready for some new friends, and there are probably some new friends who will take him in.

I'm always suspicious of answers that end in "Yes, it looks like a harm, but really I'm helping." Maybe you're right, but it's not clear to me that such is necessarily true.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 2:58 PM
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Hm, if Heebie's out, I dunno. Plus, you need more guys.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 2:59 PM
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Heebie's being out was contingent on something or other, though I can't remember what.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 3:01 PM
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Communists.


Posted by: slolernr | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 3:01 PM
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ists s/b ards


Posted by: Clownaesthesiologist | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 3:02 PM
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Hm, if Heebie's out, I dunno.

Homophobe.


Posted by: Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 3:02 PM
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Heebie can bring the booty, but sh has to leave her cats and collectibles at home.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 3:02 PM
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Oh, no cats? Fuck that then. My pussy goes wherever I go.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 3:05 PM
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Since I'm a team of cats that combine to form a robot warrior, my blazing sword and I will have to pass. Y'all can defend your own goddamn universe.


Posted by: Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 3:06 PM
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My dog is an awesome dog.


Posted by: Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 3:07 PM
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Armsmasher is in, so I guess someone needs to bring some art.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 3:08 PM
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No cats? Fuck that.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 3:09 PM
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188 - Can He create a hairball so big that even He can't shed it?


Posted by: Becks | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 3:09 PM
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What hath dog brought?


Posted by: Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 3:09 PM
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Your commune will be full of people with dog-smelling hands, won't it?


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 3:10 PM
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When did will become David Koresh? Even the Branch Davidians must have been harder to sucker than this.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 3:11 PM
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194:

Are Redfoxtail and Parsimon under 15? Plus, my hair wont grow that long, unless it comes from my ears or back.

Redfoxtail!!! You cannot bail on me. This commune is based on me eating really good food and drinking really good wine.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 3:13 PM
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This commune is based on me eating really good food and drinking really good wine.

And dogs. Welcome to Drooltopia.


Posted by: Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 3:15 PM
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I miss Voltron.


Posted by: mrh | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 3:23 PM
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I miss you too, mrh.


Posted by: Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 3:31 PM
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cerebrocrat can come if he asks bc you always need someone who knows about brains.

I think chronically implanted pleasure-center stimulators would really make this commune. Under other circumstances, I'd assure everyone that the hair grows back, but since it's a commune, I think the shaved look works.

Someone said there was going to be wine at this commune, right?


Posted by: cerebrocrat | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 3:35 PM
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30 goddamn ascots.


Posted by: Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 3:41 PM
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You won't be wearing those, will you?


Posted by: slolernr | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 3:42 PM
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Commune, commune, commune! Well I never wanted to be in your dumb stupid commune anyway, so there. See if I care!

[stomp stomp stomp, slams door of bedroom, plays Arcade Fire loudly]


Posted by: strasmangelo jones | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 3:42 PM
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Kind of late on that one, SB.


Posted by: Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 3:46 PM
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You won't be wearing those, will you?

Not all at once, no.


Posted by: Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 3:47 PM
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Kind of late on that one, SB.

Ingrate.


Posted by: Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 3:48 PM
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I had to go do something for a couple of hours and I lost my train of thought. Next time I'll have my wax done in the morning.


Posted by: Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 3:51 PM
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Just seems like you're riding the coattails of this thread.


Posted by: Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 3:52 PM
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That's an unseemly accusation, friend.


Posted by: Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 3:55 PM
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I think chronically implanted pleasure-center stimulators would really make this commune.

That didn't work in the Michael Crichton novel, are you guys trying it again 30 years later?


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 4:08 PM
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If it fits. . . .


Posted by: Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 4:11 PM
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Look, I was here from the beginning. I don't know what you're trying to pull, but I won't be taken in.


Posted by: Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 4:20 PM
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If anyone still cares: the movie in which "anti-gay" in the source material became "anti-semitic' is probably Crossfire. (If you really want to go back, one of Hitchcock's first films, Blackmail, replaces the source's secret gay person with a secret...wait for it..."half-caste".)


Posted by: DonBoy | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 4:23 PM
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I can be the commune enforcer.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 4:23 PM
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Fine, whatever suits you.


Posted by: Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 4:24 PM
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209: What Michael Crichton novel is that? (Not that there's any chance in hell I'll read it.)


Posted by: cerebrocrat | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 6:02 PM
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cerebrocrat:

Absolutly there will be wine.

Stras:
Do you have anything to bring to the commune? The bar isnt set too high: Like to drink wine? Will you eat redtailfox's food? Argue with BitchPhd?

Cala:

What will you be enforcing? Bed time?


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 6:06 PM
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"The Terminal Man"

I liked it. I think all of Crichton's science-based books were good, until that "Lost World" nonsense came out. "Sphere" was much better than the movie. "Congo" was much, much better than the movie. "The Great Train Robbery" was fascinating history-wise, too.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 6:09 PM
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216: Dude, I'm not coming unless I can bring my cat and have a free pass from Parsimon to be as frivolous as I like.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 6:10 PM
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I'll eat redfox's food and her tasty dudgeon.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 6:10 PM
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B's dudgeon is tastier, but it's harassment to say so. Mmmmmm, dudgeon.

No offense to RFTS.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 6:20 PM
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195 - Some "commune", plutocratic leech!


Posted by: snarkout | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 6:22 PM
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Dudgeon is the spice of Grice.

Hm, that's not quite right. Dudgeon is the spice of strife!


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 6:25 PM
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My dudgeon brings all the boys to the yard.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 6:26 PM
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a free pass from Parsimon to be as frivolous as I like

Dood, I'm teh Communication Facilitator. Did you forget already?


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 6:32 PM
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I wanted to join the commune and start a band, but w-lfs-n would just make fun of us. And that hurts me heart.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 6:33 PM
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I'll be in your band, Stan. We can get B to play tamborine and look pretty, and Emerson can produce us.


Posted by: Clownaesthesiologist | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 6:51 PM
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Way back, Cerebrocrat's 154:

I did the same thing for the sake of my mother for a while after I first came out, and it seriously and permanently (or at least so far) strained our relationship.

This lingers enough that I want to reply; this stuff cuts close to the bone, or whatever the phrase is.

My mom has now, I think, more or less accepted my brother's sexuality. What once registered quite painfully (for her) as shameful is now a simple fact of life. That's partly due to my brother's and my doggedness. Neither of us, her baby children! is conventional. I'm less so than my brother, so I've been training her.

but here's the oddity: it's actually been the extended family's disgusting homophobia that finally turned my mother's gaze. One of my cousins spent a few nights in jail, for example, for gay-bashing some guy he thought was coming on to him in a bar.

Now my mother, brother and I are in complicity among the extended family: at thanksgiving we listen to their ignorance, we fall silent, we sometimes leave sooner than anticipated. This is about as open as it's going to get.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 6:59 PM
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223: My dudgeon, it's higher than yours.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 7:03 PM
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Re: 83 - you're thinking of Crossfire, in which a Jewish soldier is murdered. In the original novel he was gay, but explicitly gay characters weren't allowed under the Hays Code. Gentlemen's Agreement, in which Gregory Peck goes undercover as a Jew to expose antisemitism, came out around the same time. Neither has anything to do with The Best Man, which was fifteen years later, and hence able to discuss homosexuality - though as far as I remember the word isn't used, just "degenerate".


Posted by: Basil Valentine | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 7:20 PM
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229 - The Hayes Code sure fucked some shit up. (Although witness Kim Newman's counterfactual). I was literally shocked the first time I whatever movie it is that has Clara Bow doing a nude scene.


Posted by: snarkout | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 7:31 PM
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I was literally shocked the first time I whatever movie it is that has Clara Bow doing a nude scene.

Treating "whatever movie it is that has Clara Bow doing a nude scene" as a verb is quite pleasant, really.


Posted by: Beefo Meaty | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 7:35 PM
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I can has grammar?


Posted by: snarkout | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 7:37 PM
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Clara Bow doing a nude scene

Call Her Savage?


Posted by: Clownaesthesiologist | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 7:40 PM
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Lurid-but-fascinating tale of wild half-breed Texas heiress has everything in it, including whippings, prostitution, extra-marital affairs, a neglected baby, and singing homosexuals.

Is it possible to make a movie sound more awesome than that?


Posted by: Beefo Meaty | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 7:42 PM
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Is it possible to make a movie sound more awesome than that

I would argue, yes.


Posted by: Clownaesthesiologist | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 7:43 PM
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Oh wait never mind, I totally elid over the verb "sound" in your 234.


Posted by: Clownaesthesiologist | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 7:44 PM
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Yes, pre-Code movies are like a glimpse of a whole different film history that might have been. It's amazing to think that there were films made in the twenties and early thirties that couldn't have been released at any time in the next twenty-odd years. I once read a book written in the forties that explained that, while regrettable, the Code was necessary because Hollywood was run by Jews who didn't appreciate Christian values. The theme of "Hollywood vs America" isn't a new one.


Posted by: Basil Valentine | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 7:46 PM
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218:

ok, since there is a no-cat policy, we need to find a new commune agitator.

Emerson?


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 7:46 PM
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Stanley and I have already got dibs on him.


Posted by: Clownaesthesiologist | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 7:47 PM
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Our band will be Fogless Legless, and our first record will be "Come Back To The Closet, Jimmy Dean, Jimmy Dead".


Posted by: Clownaesthesiologist | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 7:51 PM
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So now ogged to trying to lobby to be the commune survivalist/fresh water guru.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 8:07 PM
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Is this a celibate commune?


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 8:13 PM
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Stras: Do you have anything to bring to the commune?

I can bitch. Failing that, I can also whine.


Posted by: strasmangelo jones | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 8:25 PM
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At the unfogged commune necessary tasks will be color-coded but few people will do them. After almost everyone drifts back into the world, more or less, someone will write a fictionalized account of the experience, The Blogthedale Romance.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 8:25 PM
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you can be.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 8:26 PM
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strasmangelo:

Excellent! You can have BitchPhd's spot.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 8:27 PM
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At the unfogged commune necessary tasks will be color-coded

RACIST.


Posted by: DS | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 8:28 PM
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eb can be our Anne Frank.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 8:29 PM
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We're gonna need like thirty goddamn wireless routers.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 8:31 PM
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245: Yes! I can be! Thank you, will.


Posted by: Clownaesthesiologist | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 8:31 PM
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Sorry, the announcements will be printed using fonts of color. The tasks will be left not performed in a nondiscriminatory fashion. Unfogged is an equal-opportunity non-employer.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 8:32 PM
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Unfogged: your one-stop shop for cock jokes, intellectual snobbery, and sartori.


Posted by: Clownaesthesiologist | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 8:34 PM
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Are you planning on a lot of dogs? (Bad.)

Will there be plenty of rabbits, squirrels, and chipmunks? (Good.)


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 8:34 PM
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Um, "satori".


Posted by: Clownaesthesiologist | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 8:34 PM
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redfox:

Not lots of dogs. I will bring monkeys, minature donkeys, and pygmie goats.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 8:36 PM
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Dogs but no cats? Where is this commune, in HELL?


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 8:37 PM
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Ogged is a cat person?! hahahahahaha That fits perfectly.

We'll need an amp for Stanley.


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 8:38 PM
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216: You mistake the calabat for something other than a means of enforcing whatever I want to enforce.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 8:39 PM
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257: I am my own amplifier, stranger.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 8:40 PM
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251: Now that's better.

I note, however, that I have seen no mention of afros, spliffs or horn sections at this commune. This lack of blaxploitation may yet cripple the entire project.


Posted by: DS | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 8:40 PM
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This is just the divorce lawyer trying to set up his business for life, right?


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 8:40 PM
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261:

Are you kidding?!??! There will be no marriage in the commune.

259:

yea, but I meant for your music.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 8:42 PM
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Dogs but no cats? Where is this commune, in HELL?

Who ARE you?


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 8:42 PM
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248: You mean Hawthorne?


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 8:42 PM
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Jesus Christ, SCMT, don't tell me you like dogs.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 8:43 PM
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263: a blogger, clearly.


Posted by: Beefo Meaty | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 8:44 PM
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Stanley is a Charlottesville guy?

Durty Nellies or C&O?


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 8:44 PM
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This lack of blaxploitation may yet cripple the entire project.

Are you volunteering to be blaxploited?


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 8:45 PM
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267: Michael's Bistro.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 8:45 PM
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264:

No, I meant that you stay in the attic, but record all of the bullshit happening, and then sadly die shortly before becoming famous.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 8:46 PM
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I'm not a pet person, but... between cats and dogs? How is this even a question? Cats on convenience grounds, maybe. And I could totally see picking a pet on convenience.

I'm working very hard to come up with a justification for cats over dogs, and, excluding some expression of an abiding hatred of humanity, I just don't see it.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 8:47 PM
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Dogs but no cats? Where is this commune, in HELL?

Word. Even if someone brought some kind of magical dog that did something useful like kill mice, the damn thing would still be running around crapping everywhere and rubbing it's stink on everyone.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 8:48 PM
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If we're going to use the dogs for target practice, I'm ok with dogs. Dogs are are like needy, hairy, slobbering children.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 8:49 PM
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269:

Havent tried it yet.

I mainly avoid the Corner, although I did go to Little Johns and the White Spot a couple of weeks ago.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 8:49 PM
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See, but that's a convenience argument. I can see that. It doesn't mean you necessarily a serial killer, though, obviously, that remains a possibility. But isn't the commune supposed to be an idealized place.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 8:50 PM
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268: Well, I do happen to have my old "Dolemite" costume from last Halloween sitting around. True, most communes would frown on pimpwear, but this one strikes me as having more vision.


Posted by: DS | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 8:50 PM
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275:

Exactly. Which means, no cats.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 8:51 PM
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What kind of dork hates an entire species?


Posted by: Beefo Meaty | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 8:52 PM
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Dogs are are like needy, hairy, slobbering children.

At least kids outgrow that. The life cycle of a dog is basically slobbery child to incontinent old fart.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 8:53 PM
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I am absolutely in favor of the Tower of Power at the commune.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 8:53 PM
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Did we vote to put Will in charge? I nominate Unf for Grand Poobah of the Commune. We can pray to Bob, and await his return.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 8:53 PM
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Sorry, I think I'm going to have to retire to a different idealized place, one that is more ideal.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 8:53 PM
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mosquito-lover.


Posted by: Clownaesthesiologist | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 8:53 PM
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273 - But you like children.


Posted by: Becks | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 8:53 PM
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283 -> 278


Posted by: Clownaesthesiologist | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 8:54 PM
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And why are we moving to a commune now? The house Ogged and I are buying isn't good enough for you now?


Posted by: Becks | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 8:54 PM
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274: I recommend it. The Bistro sits above the Corner in a lofty perch and avoids the usual Corner riff-raff. It also boasts a robust and rotating menu of good microbrews and Belgian beers, but unpretentiously. I'm fond of saying it's "where everybody knows you're lame."


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 8:54 PM
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So no one else finds the idea that this "commune" could have someone who experiences something like what Anne Frank experienced disturbing? I think I'd emigrate if it weren't easier simply not to join.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 8:55 PM
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283: I'm sure there are some delightful mosquitos out there somewhere far away from me.


Posted by: Beefo Meaty | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 8:57 PM
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I like lynx. We used to breed Siberian lynx and persian lynx. They were cool.

But once they get big, VERY cool to hold, but very scary.

House cats = evil


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 8:57 PM
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But you like children.

Vice versa, isn't it? Foomp!


Posted by: Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 8:58 PM
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I like lynx. We used to breed Siberian lynx and persian lynx. They were cool.

But once they get big, VERY cool to hold, but very scary.

House cats = evil


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 8:58 PM
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Will the commune feature a menagerie?


Posted by: Clownaesthesiologist | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 9:00 PM
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Stanley:

Is it above Little Johns? If so, I used to go to that location a lot in a previous incarnation. I'll check it out. I'm up there a lot in the fall and summer.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 9:01 PM
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273 - But you like children.

Sure, back when you were still Ms. 2005 he liked children.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 9:01 PM
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Ogged:

The commune is an idealized place. Why on earth would I be in charge? That would be foolish.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 9:02 PM
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294: Yep.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 9:02 PM
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I note, however, that I have seen no mention of afros

I could provide that.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 9:04 PM
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Becks:

Is the house in Costa Rica?


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 9:04 PM
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I had a cat years ago. The first time this boy came over to hit on me, the cat decided the boy should be bit. Never bit anyone before or since, but the boy wound up being a borderline stalker for like a month and a half after being turned down.

The first time my ex-husband met this cat, the cat vomitted all over him. The ex, of course, turned out to be a sociopath like 50-100% of all exes.

I am firmly convinced of the virtue of cats.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 9:04 PM
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I am convinced of the virtue of that cat.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 9:08 PM
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What is the commune's position on headwear?


Posted by: Clownaesthesiologist | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 9:09 PM
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280: Excellent, I'll bring my crew. Oh, and we'll need a few things.


Posted by: DS | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 9:11 PM
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I would have put the condoms on the list, then the corn on the cob, and then the fried chicken. Just to make 'em wonder.


Posted by: Becks | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 9:13 PM
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272 ...the damn thing would still be running around crapping everywhere and rubbing it's stink on everyone.

Cats don't run, true, and they don't crap just anywhere, and they don't deign to acknowledge the presence of everyone in the room, but when their terds stick to their ass-fur they figure humans are the perfect patsies to sort it out for them.

Near as I can tell, they're right about 50% of the time.


Posted by: ahab | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 9:15 PM
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I'm got no problem with Heads. I'll bring about 350 Gigs of high quality Grateful Dead concerts.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 9:16 PM
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Some preservatives make foods last longer than others.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 9:16 PM
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Have we talked about location yet?


Posted by: Clownaesthesiologist | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 9:17 PM
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306: yeesh, this is going south in a hurry.


Posted by: Beefo Meaty | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 9:19 PM
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Or is that what all the "Banff" stuff was about?


Posted by: Clownaesthesiologist | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 9:19 PM
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BANFF!


Posted by: Beefo Meaty | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 9:20 PM
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What does a Deadhead say when he runs out of acid at a show?


Posted by: DS | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 9:20 PM
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311 -> 312


Posted by: Clownaesthesiologist | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 9:21 PM
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sifu:

Of course it is. What fun is a commune without a flaming, hate blow-up?


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 9:22 PM
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The premise of 312 seems a little faulty to me -- acid is not something you would "run out" of in the way that you might "run out" of smokes -- unless the Head in question is selling acid, then it would make sense.


Posted by: Clownaesthesiologist | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 9:23 PM
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Actually, it's: "Fuck. This band sucks!" But that works too.


Posted by: DS | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 9:23 PM
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Bunffogged. Cat-ass-wipe solution. Use with care.


Posted by: ahab | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 9:24 PM
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Hey for those of you who are not reflexively anti-Jerry, this is a really, really good concert.


Posted by: Clownaesthesiologist | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 9:26 PM
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The premise of 312 seems a little faulty to me

Right, it s/b "stuck at a show with no acid."


Posted by: DS | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 9:27 PM
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Cats don't run, true, and they don't crap just anywhere, and they don't deign to acknowledge the presence of everyone in the room, but when their terds stick to their ass-fur they figure humans are the perfect patsies to sort it out for them.

I only have ever had short haired cats, so no turds in fur. And IME cats tend to be aloof for two main reasons.

1. They've been raised by people who do stupid shit to make them wary of being touched, i.e. "no matter how I chuck this cat it always lands on it's feet."

2. People who roughhouse a cat like it's a dog, i.e. "guys who also don't know how to touch a woman."


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 10:09 PM
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no matter how I chuck this cat it always lands on it's feet

You're not supposed to do that?

Oh.


Posted by: DS | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 10:44 PM
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gswift: no matter how I chuck this cat it always lands on it's feet

DS: You're not supposed to do that?

Nah. Usually you type "its" for the possessive, but hey, it's just a blog.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 10:47 PM
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I have two monitors here, so I'm looking at multiple things and commenting on the fly. Punctuation might get a bit sketchy.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 10:50 PM
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Dood, I'm teh Communication Facilitator.

That's what I'm worried about!!

I had a long haired cat who did not get turds stuck in her fur. You people are crazy.

320.2 gets it *exactly* right.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 10:51 PM
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Plus, for every cat that gets poop stuck in its fur? There are twenty dogs that will happily come along and eat that poop and then lick your face. No. Thank. You.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 10:54 PM
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323: No hate, just joshin'. My work started to give us two monitors for awhile, then switched to these huge 27" LCDs. You should push for that (unless it's two separate computers).


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 10:54 PM
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27''? That sounds nuts. But then again, I'm really used to a pair of 19'''s now. We have a lot of windows up simultaneously. The two monitors is nice to compare sources of data, but I imagine the same thing could be done on one big one.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 10:59 PM
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Commune idea abandoned. We will all live in B's backyard, surviving off avocados and water sucked through a Life Straw™ from the koi pond. We may have to babysit from time to time, but that's fine. We'll play Hair Cuttery™, a game that will teach young PK the financial wherewithal to one day run a salon in which hair is cut.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 11:00 PM
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Actually as we were leaving for dinner tonight, Mr. B. said, "we should have an unfogged meetup here at the house."

"No one would show up," I said.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 11:05 PM
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The cat people have decreed.


Posted by: ahab | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 11:05 PM
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We should retain Ogged's "dogs as target practice" idea.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 11:05 PM
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No, I draw the line at shooting dogs. Also, gswift, if you even *think* about stomping mice, we'll feed you to the fishes.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 11:09 PM
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Mice are small, and can be thrown in the manner of clay pigeons.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 11:13 PM
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parsimon (227): my situation was different, favorably, from your brother's. In my case, my mother's fears about the family reactions were exaggerated. The family members were mostly much more ready to hear the news from me than she was ready to face them afterward. The problem that has lingered is that she asked me to compromise my relationships with all those other people in order to spare her pride, and so all the bragging she'd ever done about how great our relationship was rang hollow: if, deep down, she didn't think my sexuality were shameful, then her ego wouldn't be threatened by the judgements others made about it.

It's reassuring that, over time, presented with the choice of your extended family's homophobia vs. loyalty to the rather less hateful option of you and your brother, your mother has sided with her children. But that it was ever a contest is something that your brother must surely have noticed and been affected by. When someone's got your back, they've got your back, and when your own mama ain't got your back... in my experience, that alone seems to leave a mark on everyone, no matter the circumstances.


Posted by: cerebrocrat | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 11:35 PM
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242: Apparently so (see 172) unless I can facilitate some opportunistic switching.


Posted by: cerebrocrat | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 11:39 PM
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278: This is really the only reasonable response to the inevitable dogs vs. cats wars. I'll never understand it... don't like dogs/cats? Don't have one. Then again, I note that cats are much more often the objects of violent/eliminationist fantasies. With Ogged as the counterexample (thanks a lot, btw), how often do you hear cat people casually talk about tormenting/killing dogs? I think we can draw our own conclusions about who the good guys are are on that one.

Can't we have a nice fight about what kind of wine we're going to bring to the commune?


Posted by: cerebrocrat | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 11:46 PM
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I hate playing catch-up after everybody else has gone to bed.


Posted by: cerebrocrat | Link to this comment | 06-12-07 11:48 PM
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Keep at it, you're almost there!


Posted by: Beefo Meaty | Link to this comment | 06-13-07 12:00 AM
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what kind of wine we're going to bring to the commune

It depends on what breed of cat we're serving on a given night.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 06-13-07 12:14 AM
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Can't we have a nice fight about what kind of wine we're going to bring to the commune?

I think the only appropriate answer to that question is 'all the wine'. Or, at least, 'lots' ...


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 06-13-07 12:16 AM
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What goes with long-haired balinese?


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 06-13-07 12:17 AM
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341: Lunch or dinner?


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 06-13-07 12:19 AM
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Don't be ridiculous. Who serves long-haired balinese for dinner?


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 06-13-07 12:20 AM
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336 is completely right. There's room for both dog and cat on any civilized table, provided we manage the meat supplies practically and humanely.


Posted by: DS | Link to this comment | 06-13-07 12:24 AM
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Don't be ridiculous. Who serves long-haired balinese for dinner?

Of course. I should have known you too wise for my ruse.

I suggest a fine viognier, chilled, but only elegantly so. Served on the veranda, in glasses adorned with the diamonds of people we don't care about.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 06-13-07 12:27 AM
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I suggest a fine viognier, chilled, but only elegantly so

I do hate a flash-chilled wine.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 06-13-07 12:31 AM
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Comity.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 06-13-07 12:33 AM
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Gewürztraminer, with balinese, surely.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 06-13-07 12:34 AM
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Oh, piss on food-pairing. On the other hand, since cats are probably mostly dark meat, and with all that killin'-cats talk from the doggy crowd, maybe it would be prudent to have a few extra cases of a soft-but-sturdy Italian red on hand.


Posted by: cerebrocrat | Link to this comment | 06-13-07 12:37 AM
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All of you are crass, making these recommendations without knowing the age and preparation of the feline.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 06-13-07 12:39 AM
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349: piss goes nicely with hard tack, leather belts, and long pig.


Posted by: Beefo Meaty | Link to this comment | 06-13-07 12:42 AM
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And for dessert, s


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 06-13-07 12:44 AM
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(ifu)


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 06-13-07 12:44 AM
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[sorry, getting used to the new computer]


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 06-13-07 12:44 AM
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Apparently Soju is recommended as a pairing with Mungmungtang.


Posted by: Beefo Meaty | Link to this comment | 06-13-07 12:45 AM
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Reading between the lines, you might accompany your stewed dog with a nice Pinot Noir, although the recipe author apparently recommends cheap beer.


Posted by: Beefo Meaty | Link to this comment | 06-13-07 12:50 AM
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Dog soup goes with a lager. Nothing too malty. And a glass of ice water, stolen from the Himalayan people, through the strategic use of straws. LifeStraws®.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 06-13-07 12:53 AM
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Cat eating apparently has a long and proud history (probably best not to scroll down if you're squeamish).

Also, if you put "cat meat recipe" into Google and click "I'm feeling lucky" you will quickly realize the lie in that statement. NSF decent human beings, or W.


Posted by: Beefo Meaty | Link to this comment | 06-13-07 12:58 AM
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On the occasion of putting one of our cats to sleep last week*, I was reminded of Seamus Heaney's "The Early Purges". I was sentimental enough to resist the temptation to use any part of her, even if her delightfully soft fur would have made an excellent hat. Faced with cooking a cat not my own, I imagine long braising would best, and either a lighter red or a big white would suit it nicely.

*By which I mean having the vet do it, in the same way that most people who say "we built a house" mean "we hired a contractor to build a house."


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 06-13-07 1:13 AM
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There is, incidentally, an extended dog barbecue in Jet Li's first movie, "Shaolin Temple", that gets played for laughs.


Posted by: Beefo Meaty | Link to this comment | 06-13-07 1:31 AM
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On the other hand, in Japan dogs are respected auto designers.


Posted by: Beefo Meaty | Link to this comment | 06-13-07 1:37 AM
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Wikipædia informs me that both dog meat and cat meat are haram. Too bad.


Posted by: Beefo Meaty | Link to this comment | 06-13-07 1:44 AM
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In Indonesia, the consumption of dog meat is usually associated with the Minahasa, a Christian ethnic group in northern Sulawesi, who consider dog meat to be a festive dish and usually reserve it for special occasions like weddings and Christmas.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 06-13-07 5:15 AM
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I'm sorry to hear about your cat, Jesus.


Posted by: Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 06-13-07 5:45 AM
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As it says in the Bible, the wave-function is certain to collapse sooner or later.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 06-13-07 7:04 AM
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Jesus H., you're going to be sitting around hating cats and blasting Grateful Dead bootlegs all goddamn night? I'm going to buy property across the street and acquire a firearm so I can take pot-shots at you in the dark. It won't be anything personal, it'll be for the sake of future generations.


Posted by: Robust McManlyPants | Link to this comment | 06-13-07 7:38 AM
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Robust:

We won't be hating cats bc there will not be any cats.

As far as music, Tower of Power aka DS & Stanley will be playing.

As far as future generations, reproduction is strictly prohibited in this commune. Free Birth control/abortions for the heterosexual. Homosexuality and anti-relationships for the others.


This commune is about wine and good eatin'.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 06-13-07 7:55 AM
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a soft-but-sturdy Italian red on hand

I'd recommend Vino Nobile de Montepulciano. Tenuta St. Agnese, in particular, offers fantastic bang for the buck.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 06-13-07 7:55 AM
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Apo:

Is that similar to Rosso Piceno - Saladini Pilastri?

I just got a case of that. mmmmm good.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 06-13-07 8:00 AM
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Tenuta St. Agnese, in particular, offers fantastic bang for the buck

As does our own LB.


Posted by: Clownaesthesiologist | Link to this comment | 06-13-07 8:02 AM
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I am completely befuddled by 370. Are you referencing the prices offered at her children's brothel, or what?


Posted by: Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 06-13-07 8:17 AM
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364: Thanks for the condolences. She was 14 and ill, so it was expected, but sad nonetheless. Our other cat, her littermate, is also not long for this world, so we get to do it all again soon.

Our vet charges $100 to euthanize a cat. I hate to pay it, but my DIY ethic goes only so far.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 06-13-07 8:41 AM
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Don't be a wuss. Trash bag and an exhaust pipe.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 06-13-07 8:45 AM
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Are you referencing the prices offered at her children's brothel

No, just her husband's handle. Low-hanging fruit, y'know.


Posted by: Clownaesthesiologist | Link to this comment | 06-13-07 8:47 AM
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Oh! I'm an idiot. That was pretty funny, actually.


Posted by: Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 06-13-07 8:49 AM
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You'd think I could at least take out a hit on him. Some enterprising young neighborhood thug would probably be happy to do it for ten bucks.

Incidentally, the head of Doc Watson's first banjo was made from the family cat.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 06-13-07 8:51 AM
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376 to 373, obvs.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 06-13-07 8:51 AM
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