Oooo, don't get me started on the idiocy of the bar exam.
What? You graduated from Yale Law school spending six figures and three years of your life in the process but you can't pass this ridiculous test that is totally irrelevant to any law practice you might ever engage in? No license for you!
I remember my own bar exam experience with dread -- I didn't sleep between the two days.
Somehow, I passed. You will, too.
Yeah! Best of luck! And then you can start to use your powers for good!
P.S. to le blanc: Wings Around the World down on 35th was quite delicious, especially their Lemon Honey Pepper wings. I do recommend it. Now I need to throw a huge party so I can order their 1000 wings for $450 and finally get all 30+ flavors.
You will survive. Poor Charley is even taking it.
Good luck, test takers.
oh, what a stupid test that was. Good luck.
I hope you people do not have to sit next to a bunch of pregnant women!
Today's some kind of regularly-scheduled exam day? How often do they happen?
In retrospect, we probably should have organized an Unfogged Bar Review thread for these brave souls.
Ah well, maybe once everyone has passed, someone can organize an Unfogged Bar Review.
Good luck all!
Merde, y'all.
I hope you people do not have to sit next to a bunch of pregnant women!
Do they pack you tightly all on to the same bench or something?
It sucks, but you'll pass.
I don't know, I kind of think the fact that they'll pass isn't all that bad.
It sucks, but you'll pass.
The bar exam is like kidney stones.
11: it's a very close question.
10: When I took it, all the pregnant women were in the same row near the bathrooms. With one very nervous looking guy who couldn't figure out what was going on.
14:
Did you talk about gas, menstruation and poop in front of the guy?
Nah, it was the bar exam. No one chats.
I don't believe you. I think LB and her pregnant gang was talking trash (or poop) to intimidate people.
16: Yeah. I spent the whole time feeling like I was going to throw up.
Yeah! Good luck at the bar tonight, guys!
Did you talk about gas, menstruation and poop in front of the guy?
LB is about action, not talk. Apparently, NCP was sitting nearby.
Sure, you'll all pass the bar. But then you'll have to be lawyers, that's the real kicker.
Of course, you should all rise to power as quickly as possible so that you can vie to hire me as your high-powered assistant when I finally move out East.
No, really, good luck.
20: Dude. If I'd been trying to pass the New York bar exam, I would have actually thrown up. The North Carolina bar exam is somewhat less difficult (or so I'm told), so I got away with just feeling like I was going to throw up.
I remember the bar review course as being kind of entertaining: well-practiced canned lectures on legal topics.
The day itself was a long, hot experience of wrist pain and "Oh right, that..."
I don't remember anything but this one question on a statute I'd never heard of that I did two hours worth of contentless blathering in response to. And running into this nice conservative Mormon guy whose name I can't remember who I'd argued with in a con law seminar. He walked with me to get lunch in what was clearly a discreet attempt to make sure there was someone there if I went into labor unexpectedly or something, which, while unnecessary, was very decent of him.
The one essay I remember on the bar was about the freaking battle of the forms, completely ridiculous.
25: I similarly have vivid memories of a question on a subject I had never previously encountered. Rather than two hours of blathering, though, I just answered (correctly!) something like, "I have abslutely no idea." I nevertheless passed, which should be consolation for all the test-takers -- if likely a little less reassuring for any of my clients...
so I got away with just feeling like I was going to throw up.
Exams fill me with fear and trembling. Just imagining taking a Bar exam makes me feel like throwing up. Bucket!
What sticks with me are the mnemics, images intended to let you remember. Of course they work too well, and I'll never forget them: a plate of linguini admitted to refresh the witness' recollection; a will written on the side of a cow.
Serious Question. How do you guys function when you're that anxious? I've been working on mindfulness techniques, but when I'm so anxious I want to puke, my work goes from good/very good to total crap.
26: I'd love to know if that was the right thing to do, or if I got any credit at all for the contentless essay I wrote. Not that it matters, given that we both passed.
29: In my case, just lucky -- the sort of nervous I get on exams seems to help rather than hinder. I'd bet having exams affect you that way is a serious, but completely pointless and counterproductive, factor determining who's academically successful.
29: For many people, this is exactly what benzodiazepines (Valium & friends) are good for.
Looks like I picked the wrong week to stop using benzodiazepines.
I'm the same as LB. Once or twice it's gotten so bad that it clearly hindered--the experimental logic games section of the LSAT was traumatic. But usually I think it helps. Probably not a coincidence that I got my best grades in law school the semesters that terrified me most.
Yes, I am also the same as LB. I write better under intense exam conditions than I do otherwise. I concentrate better in exam conditions than at pretty much any other time.
Unfortunately you can't sit a 3 hour exam for a doctorate.
34: I have vivid memories of the "logic" section of the LSAT. I remember getting about halfway through and just wanting to write, "You know what, if A can't sit next to D and C has to sit next to A and E will only sit on the end, then maybe the lot of them should just go home and come back when they are ready to cooperate." I think the point of this section is not truly to test your logical reasoning skills, but to test your ability to feign tolerance for a bunch of people making ridiculous demands. This latter skill being truly relevant to practice.
35: True, but that aptitude comes in handy for comprehensive exams (though you'll probably not get away with 3 hours, I guess)
After the bar, I didn't go back to Roanoke for 4 years.
36: Although silly as they seemed at the time, they make sense as something to test on in retrospect. Statutory and contractual interpretation often use the same sort of reasoning process, or at least it feels the same to me.
35: Yeah, I was kind of sad after the bar exam, because it was the last test that was ever likely to make a difference in my life. One unfair advantage, now obsolete.
re: 38
Yeah. Lots of time spent learning predicate calculus, and then they ask you about stuff like that.
Good luck w/d and leblanc!
OT -- We are going to discuss this, right?
Oh man, I love those logic puzzles. The "analytic" section on the GRE was pure fun to me.
40.2: Similarly, I was sad after the GREs were over; standardized tests were always my main unfair advantage in this world.
I got a perfect score on the analytic GRE section, missed one question on the math, and pretty much bombed the verbal. That any English PhD school would take me was a miracle.
44: Say, me too, exactly! Well, my verbal score was decent, but it was certainly not up to the level of my other scores. Why, indeed, one might ask in the face of such scores, did I not apply to linguistics or cognitive science programs in the first place, since I could have done roughly the same crazy interdisciplinary no-one-will-hire-me stuff in those settings as well? (Answer: because I majored in English, duh. Plus this way I got to read more novels and call it work.)
42: I never know what to say about articles like that. It's a trend piece about a couple of dozen very rich couples --what's it supposed to mean?
My undergraduate logic exam, which was a requirement for honours philosophy, I forgot it was due [we'd had the paper for weeks]. Walked into the department to see everyone handing their completed exams in. Grabbed the paper, ran out of the room, sat down and did it in about 20 minutes and rushed back.
98 or 99%, I think. Something like that. I bet if I'd done it properly, over a few hours, I'd have done worse.
Other people in your program used to set fire to your car on occasion, didn't they? If you were wondering why, I have some thoughts.
a couple of dozen very rich couples. Miss Miller, in the comments, begs to differ.
I agree, that article is really odd. Like many trend pieces it was more an exercise in clever writing than anything else.
oh, and I forgot --- good luck to all those sitting today!
46: Yeah, I have some acquaintances who fit a lot of what the article talks about, but they're all upper-middle-class twits. If they want to ruin their own lives by not having as many sexual partners, throwing lavish weddings, and living in Park Slope, so be it.
Good luck to all affected. Comfort yourselves that when you pass you at least won't have to wear a horsehair wig to plead in open court.
I spent the whole time feeling like I was going to throw up.
I'll never forget going to the bathroom during the lunch break of the first day, and hearing some poor guy violently puking his guts out in one of the stalls.
I wonder though, whether it was really the thought of becoming a lawyer that was making him sick.
Good luck, guys! I remember so VERY little about the actual exam except for the woman next to me, who always seemed to finish each section early. This began to freak me out. On the second day, I was really freaked out. Who was this genius who so confidently completed each test so quickly and easily?
Finally, on Thursday - the final day - right before the last section, we were chatting, waiting to begin, and she helpfully informed me that this bar exam was much harder than February's. Ka-ZING!
If it's not just rich people, then I suppose I fit the pattern -- married at 26, first kid at 27, second at 29, unthrilling job, and I cook some. I'm not getting this as 'New Victorianism' rather than, oh, life works out that way sometimes.
After the bar, I didn't go back to Roanoke for 4 years.
CROATOAN
49: From Miller's comments:
THAT, my friends, is liberation and feminism at it's best.
I think she was meant for Sifu.
Dissertation Bear says articles like "The New Vics" are more interested in coining a phrase (like Brooks's "Bobos") by saying "Isn't this what you see everywhere?" despite giving no evidence that it really exists. But it's a clever enough coinage that it's likely to catch on, as bobos did, as a twee self-deprecating descriptor among people who are too lazy to come up with a way to describe their own lives.
That said, I've already spilled a lot of blog-ink on young people obsessed with "success" and the avoidance of fun and parties. Among my friends, there are certainly those who pair off at 22 and stay that way, quietly lamenting how boring they've become. But they find the alternative--dating, parties, self-sufficiency--really frightening and depressing.
I guess it seems like the lifestyle one chooses has less to do with age and more to do with politics. If you're queer, radical, or poor, you're not invited to the heteronormative playpen. If you're not, there's apparently no more shame in embracing it. The couples represented seem mostly driven by fear of the alternative, rather than desire for the lifestyle.
...which is to say I think this is different from LB's situation, that life works out that way sometimes. These are people who are looking at their single friends' drama, panicking, and saying "Oh my God, could there be anything worse than being single at 30? I'd better hole up with someone and never emerge." My friends in this situation are early-mid-life-crises-in-waiting.
That said, it's a dumb, mean, shallow, narrow-minded article.
New Good-Catholic-Girlism. Liz also wore white at her wedding and was amazed at what she was expected to do on her wedding night. But when the stork brought Newt she was happy.
The giant mass of feathers I wore was white, and both I and the ghost of Mad Anthony Wayne were somewhat surprised. No storks, though.
58: It does seem as though some of the article was driven by distaste for the insufficiently fun. Which seems cruel, given that non-fun people probably already feel bad about not being fun.
That phrase "The New Victorians" comes from Neal Stephenson's The Diamond Age.
59: Gotta say, there's something stupid in the air this week--I was just thinking that I'd already read three really stupid pieces and it's only Tuesday.
Honestly, this whole "New Victorians" trope has been written about, with variations, at least once in the sixties and once in the early eighties. And if you read the fascinating and pop The Long Week-End you too can learn about Victorian nostalgia in pop culture as early as the 1920s!
Shorter version: [Group] are all like this now, and they used to be all like that. Media controversy: "Are there exceptions to this ringing indictment?" Popular participation:
"But wait, I'm an exception!" Popular debate: "Being an exception is stupid! No, it's not!" Ev psych: "People have finally realized that they should be like this and not like that! Hooray! Now utopia will arrive!"
The "New Victorians" article is from July 10th.
I couldn't tell what the rhetorical bent of it was. It also got plenty of digs in on us faux-bohemians, pathetically taking over bars till the wee hours at 27 years old! and still struggling with money! and single!!!
Okay, you know what's getting me about the stupidness of the article? It sets up twenty-something-reasonably-affluent-artsy-fun-people-in-NY as a norm, and then comments on the fact that some people deviate from that norm as a trend. And of course cool downtown fun people can't possibly be any kind of a broad population norm, it's a lifestyle that's about not settling down like ordinary people do. So the New Victorianism being identified, really, is "Some people I'd expect to be hip and fun have strangely chosen to be boring and ordinary instead."
Ordinary does too much work in that last comment.
Right, LB. They differ from the different by being a lot like the bulk of the people I graduated high school with in Kansas. (Tonks, if you're reading, you are excluded by virtue of the LB "it just happened this way" exclusion.)
Right. That angle burns me a little, because NY is a real place where people grow up and live, not just a bohemian playground. The bohemian playground aspect of it is great fun, but there's nothing out of place about just living here because this is where you live, rather than spending ten or fifteen years being exciting and fun here as a young adult and then moving someplace where your kids can have a backyard and go to school in a system you're comfortable with.
Yeah, that article sure is trying too hard. A symptom is the frequency with which it uses lines like "how much more New Vic can you get?" I don't know, article, why don't you tell me? That particular example is dingbattily commenting on the fact that some couple moved to Philadelphia. Yeah, boy, moving to Philadelphia is the very essence of Victorian behavior.
Edwardian? Two weeks in Philadelphia.
One wonders if the author has any ideas about the actual nineteenth century whatsoever. I suppose the excuses for the appellation are (a) "Victorians were boring and conventional, right?" and (b) "Park Slope baby names are awfully Victorian sounding, aren't they?"
Having kids is so old-fashioned.
40: I had the same feeling.
42: oh, whatever. I guess I qualify in spades: ivy league schools, married first boyfriend at 23 in fancy wedding, most of our friends married, not much life, very good cooks & food snobs, thinking about kids, upper middle class, blah blah blah.
I don't think it's being deeply conventional or boring or priggish or judgmental. Maybe excessively cautious, but that's not quite the same thing.
57: I think she was meant for Sifu.
Huh?
The two of you are apostrophe-using soulmates. </Standpipe's blog>
Hah I skipped right past it. You're right! She's a dream! I'll just have to unleash her from the bonds of her sufffocating conservatism.
"Hey baby, I know you like bad grammar, now why don't you try a little of the harder stuff?"
oh, whatever. I guess I qualify in spades: ivy league schools, married first boyfriend at 23 in fancy wedding, most of our friends married, not much life, very good cooks & food snobs, thinking about kids, upper middle class, blah blah blah.
I think I need a vacation. I read this post and think "oh, one day, you and your friends will be mine, my pretties, you will be mine." (Professionally, of course.)
Statistics are with you Will, if nothing else.
Is RFTS starting a pushback for the modernity and complexity of the "Victorians?" It's always been my view, my wife and I concentrated on the period, but a kind of wooden 18C yay! 19C boo! schtick has always been part of this blog while I've been here.
Statistics are with you Will, if nothing else.
Possibly not. Don't divorce rates vary hugely by education and other factors?
We 18cists outnumber the 19cists here. 18c yay!
Don't divorce rates vary hugely by education and other factors?
If you have sex with someone other than your spouse, you are more likely to get a divorce.
why, the 23 year old thing? Most of our friends are both a little older than us & married later. Grad school makes families, it seems.
Don't divorce rates vary hugely by education and other factors?
If you have sex with someone other than your spouse, and your spouse learns of it, your likelihood of divorce skyrockets.
Any support would be welcome. JM extends into Romanticism, but if RFTS goes mid-century she'll be the first. ac's been gone for awhile, and wasn't a professional.
You change a lot from 23 to 33. You are starting your adult lives and professional lives. That causes a lot of change.
Too few people continue to work on their relationship. Or they simply end up having different goals, interests, and desires after ten years.
I read this post and think "oh, one day, you and your friends will be mine, my pretties, you will be mine."
When I was 25 or so, most my friends started to get married. By the time I was 28, they were all divorced or heading to it (one exception, okay--and they're still going strong.)
I read a lot of Trollope, but not professionally.
I'm sorry, I do more early 20th century, but I do slop back to the 1860s sometimes and am fond of 19th century weirdos. Concentrating on the early 20th century of course has its own ways of making me cast a skeptical eye on simplistic views of the "Victorians," since the modernists are responsible for popularizing many such simplifications.
Hmmm...
I hope that being engaged from age 23 to age 27 (probably) means that when we do get married it will be divorce-free.
93: It's a weird feeling being the couple that's lasted. Our friends have largely been through one divorce; the solid marriages we know are mostly second marriages. It's not everyone, but it's a lot.
I hope that being engaged from age 23 to age 27 (probably) means that when we do get married it will be divorce-free.
If you and your spouse can both avoid stress, depression, boredom, having sex with other people, and you work really, really hard at the relationship, you should be fine. No worries in fact.
In all seriousness, I am very much in favor of marriage at a young age. Please do not wait until you are older.
I realize the conversation's drifted, but let me add to all the goodluck benedictions the proviso that if you don't pass, you can take it again. In fact, if you don't pass the second time, you can take it again. And if you don't pass a third time, you can still be the mayor of Los Angeles. You're God's children any which way.
I was on a plane next to someone when I regretted my decision to open conversation. I managed to avoid talking to him for the rest of the flight by saying, "Ooh, you're studying for the LSAT? Let's have me try the practice tests to see how I do!" I rather enjoyed the logic puzzles. (IAN [and never hoped to be] AL). Plus it bought me 20-minute respites followed only my test-checking interaction.
I love the presentation of 'having sex with other people' as a neutral hazard of marriage. "This hole is a par 4. If you can keep your tee shot on the fairway, and avoid slicing into the extramarital sex partners on the left, you should be on the green in 2."
Oh wait, also avoid running groups, triathlons, internet chat rooms, church groups, drugs, political campaigns, and blogs.
100: why do you say this, out of curiousity?
95: Welcome, friend. How many times have you watched Topsy Turvy?
I'm not a Victorian specialist, but I love the 19th and early 20th. And amen about the modernists, themselves wonderful objects of study.
why do you say this, out of curiousity?
So I can send my kids to college.
What really makes your chances of divorce skyrocket is getting married.
I read a lot of Trollope, but not professionally.
It's so weird to read Trollope after reading a lot of Balzac. I'm always thinking, "not bad, but dude, where's the sex?"
Not in literature, but I started out doing 18th century stuff. Unfortunately I couldn't stop regressing back further and further to where it all started, and ended up with the Romans.
So the New Victorianism being identified, really, is "Some people I'd expect to be hip and fun have strangely chosen to be boring and ordinary instead."
What's weird is how much the article seems to buy into the idea that someone's interesting life is over once he or she marries, and it's all casseroles and glass grapes here on out.
Um. Married, not so much, but kids are really going to up the casserole level in your life. They're interesting in themselves, but differently interesting, in a way that makes the sort of life privileged in the article very tricky to pull off.
I understand the reasoning, certainly....we just celebrated our 5 year anniversary & had basically live together for three years before we got married. Our goals really have actually changed very little, but trying to start two careers at once is extremely stressful--and having a relatively clear idea of what you want to do actually makes that worse. The field I'm in, it makes absolutely no sense for me to live where I do.
And yet, I still think it was the best decision I ever made.
I know what the statistics say. But the statistics also supposedly say you shouldn't live together first, & that I flatly do not buy.
Not that I own any glass grapes.
What's weird is how much the article seems to buy into the idea that someone's interesting life is over once he or she marries, and it's all casseroles and glass grapes here on out.
Newly married?
LB nails it. Kids take tremendous amounts of your time. They slow you down. (Going somewhere requires lots of advanced planning and packing, and their short little legs cannot keep up.)
Don't get me wrong. Kids are the best thing in the entire world. They enrich your life dramatically. But, you start living for your kids' needs.
Or that there's anything wrong with casseroles. Seriously, though, most of my friends who married a few years ago between 23 and 26 are just now thinking about kids, and they still have their own interests and hobbies and likes.
I mean, they're not sleeping with other people, but when did that get to be the standard of a successful twentysomething? Sometimes people who are single don't have sex!
87 - That's the kind of casual speculation that gives the Internet a bad name, will. I would like to see some numbers on that. Or video, if you have that.
Ha ha! I now have a friend who's getting married. He told me and a solid core of our friends yesterday that he's marrying her next week, but he didn't say more than that. We suspect the bride has green card issues. However, her wealthy father is hosting a wedding party early next year in central Mexico, and I'm so totally going to that.
I've been married three and a half days. Thus making me an expert.
I haven't sprouted any chintz!
I mean, they're not sleeping with other people
Correction: They havent told you that they are sleeping with other people.
What? Wait, we missed it? Or did everyone else know and I just wasn't paying attention?
Congratulations! Yay, Calashivbunny! (Hurls rice, ties sneakers to car.)
119: Dude, you're really starting to depress me.
Congratulations! I hope it went better than you feared.
It was a lot of fun. I should throw big parties and wear floofy dresses more often. My mother pretty much went nuts the day before the wedding, but has returned to the mostly sane woman she was before we got engaged.
Or video, if you have that.
I actually do. It is shocking what people will tape.
Congratulations Cala. I wish you much happiness. There truly is nothing better than having someone who is committed to you and has your back. I really mean that.
Congratulations, Cala. Sorry about the honeymoon in Bethlehem, PA.
Nice one Cala. A good move, on the whole. Glad the party went well.
Congrats, Cala! Yay, floofy dresses!
This is one of the sillier sentences:
"The current obsession with food preparation--I absolutely must have that Le Creuset casserole!--is totally New Victorian."
See--now I would've said that obsession--I absolutely must have that Cuisinart food processor!--is totally 1980's Yuppie. But I suppose there isn't much point to disagreeing with an article the sole purpose of which is to monger a new trend. If nothing else, maybe Tom Wolfe can squeeze a few thousand pages out of these "new Vics."
"Too few people continue to work on their relationship. Or they simply end up having different goals, interests, and desires after ten years."
speaking of boring people though, getting to the point where you're basically the same person takes most of the fun out of relationships, no?
Also, i decided not to take the bar, this summer. Good lukc to the rest of you though.
The thing that really distinguishes the New Vics from the Old Kind is they've got penicillan and indoor plumbing and PS3.
And now that you're past the floofy dress-with-a-bodice, you can start lifting again. And post pictures so we can all see how great you looked in the dress.
Yay Cala + Shivbunny! When can we expect to learn the important details, live what last name you went with, how violent the war over photo arrangements turned out, etc.?
Even though I fully recognize the importance of devoting time and attention to being a good person to your partner, and to a zillion other things required to maintain a happy relationship, there is something that always really rubs me the wrong way about characterizing this necessity in terms of "working on your relationship."
138: It does sounds sort of like a chore when put like that, like brushing your teeth, doesn't it.
Not if you're working on your relationship . . . with the calabat! Congrats and much future happiness to you.
I agree with RFTS. It's all in the category of "be loving towards the person you love," but saying "working on your relationship" makes it sound like "and stop slacking on your dissertation. We can see you commenting on Unfogged instead of working."
I dunno, it feels like work. It's not the easy thing or the lazy thing or the relaxing thing to do, but it's the important one, and ultimately the fulfilling one. Isn't that what work is, allegedly?
Didn't you hear will say we should all be avoiding blogs?
It seems chore-like, as Cala says, and also, oh, I don't know, distastefully pop-psych-ish or something. Plus I have a dislike for the idea that what you work on is "the relationship" or "the marriage". It seems much more true and amenable to me to talk about it in terms of paying attention to what you do, how you live, what you and your partner care about and need, and so on.
Marriage takes work. Not just love. To take out the word "work" implies it is all sugar and spice. And it is not. It takes actual hard work. Unpleasant work sometimes.
Argh the important and fulfilling thing, not one. My grasp of the language is at a seriously low ebb this morning.
144: I thought you were single. Seriously, I think if you're doing it right, it mostly shouldn't feel like work. Occasionally something isn't going right, and straightening it out is work, but if being loving and attentive is 'work', something's going wrong.
Sifu, Will -> marriage = work.
LB, rfts -> marriage = not much work.
I smell gender overgeneralizations!
I know there's work. I think I'm just objecting to the floofy phrasing (next we will leverage our affection) rather than the idea that it isn't all sugar and spice and green cards.
Seriously, I think if you're doing it right, it mostly shouldn't feel like work. Occasionally something isn't going right, and straightening it out is work, but if being loving and attentive is 'work', something's going wrong.
I have a problem with that. Your marriage isnt a failure if it isn't total fun. Something isn't wrong with your marriage simply because you have to struggle to resolve issues. Marriage is a mental, financial, social, sexual, educational partnership.
Loving and attentive does not do it justice. We fail people if we teach them that marriage issues are just love and attention.
I thought you were single
Yes, well, I'll work harder next time. Right, no, it shouldn't feel like work all the time. Just occasionally. But it does take (occasional) work to make a long term relationship work.
Sifu, Will -> marriage = work.
LB, rfts -> marriage = not much work.
I smell gender overgeneralizations!
You just sit there and look pretty. Let us menfolk do the heavy lifting.
Congratulations, Cala. Did you save a piece of cake for the Unfoggetariat?
I agree with RTFS in 138. What especially rubs me the wrong way are priests who bring up, during the wedding-Mass homily, the necessity of working on relationships. Excuse me, Father Jerkface, we're trying to have some happiness here.
I knew that Jesus McQ was a sissy-girl.
Hmmm. Maybe it would help if, rather than frame it as a distinction between "love" and "work," fram it as a distinction between love as mushy, amorphous noun and proactive, concrete noun. Thus, it doesn't have to be the drudgery many of us associate with the word "work," but it does have to be something involving more effort than just generally feeling mushy.
(Says the chick in the middle of a divorce...)
I agree with LB in 149 and also think there is something wrong with 147. I don't think anything in life is sugar and spice all the time. What I object to is (a) the idea that "marriage" or "a relationship" is a product that you "work on" rather than an ongoing and variable state of affairs, comprised of any number of individual and joint actions that are sometimes easy and sometimes not easy to pull off, and (b) the idea that successfully maintaining this product somehow necessarily a lot more work than being a decent or happy person over a long period of time would otherwise be.
Now parenting, I'm positive that's hard work.
You should love your work, too!
That's the problem. All of you have unfulfilling careers.
But it does take (occasional) work to make a long term relationship work.
Only on the man's part. The woman just needs to stay the way she is and the man will continue to love her without any work on her part. Or so I overgeneralize from our responses here.
Yay Cala! That's great news. Felicitations. You passed that bar (Sorta ObThread).
total fun ≠ 'mostly shouldn't feel like work'
I don't think we're substantively disagreeing much; just that if doing what you have to do to keep your marriage going is a dreary grind, something's gone wrong. But I may, as someone who dislikes her job, be overreacting to the word 'work'.
Heh. Tweety-pwned.
Hey, a partner here just emailed me a Spackerman blog-post on Gonzales and waterboarding. Small world.
the idea that successfully maintaining this product somehow necessarily a lot more work than being a decent or happy person over a long period of time would otherwise be
That's not what I'm trying to imply. Being single and dating is rather a lot of work, too. If you want intimate relationships in your life you have to put active thinking and effort into learning about the people you form those relationships with, no matter how long you've known them. Would be the summary.
If we changed "work" to "making a conscious effort to be good to your spouse", would people still disagree?
No disagreement here. That's pretty much what I was thinking with 'loving and attentive'.
an ongoing and variable state of affairs, comprised of any number of individual and joint actions that are sometimes easy and sometimes not easy to pull off,
In other words, "work."
successfully maintaining this product somehow necessarily a lot more work than being a decent or happy person over a long period of time would otherwise be.
Now parenting, I'm positive that's hard work.
1. I know tons of decent or happy people who are divorced.
2. So a marriage with kids, involves work?
I realize that there's something weird and persnickety about the precise kinds of phrasing I object to. I'm perfectly happy to agree with assertions that you are going to have to work hard at all kinds of things if you want your marriage/long term relationship to work, and I'm also very happy to agree that relationships need tending.
If we changed "work" to "making a conscious effort to be good to your spouse", would people still disagree?
Can I add, "even when your spouse is being a pain in the ass or self-destructive"?
If we changed "work" to "making a conscious effort to be good to your spouse", would people still disagree?
I think that's why officiants often like to emphasize the "marriage is hard work" line -- because alot of people assume that if you are a basically good person, being good to your spouse shouldn't require "conscious effort." That is, it should happen instinctively. Maybe that's true if you're a really, really good person, but for most of us I think not. Just warning us all that marriage is work, though, is perhaps less helpful than giving us some clue about what that "work" is and how to do it.
If we changed "work" to "making a conscious effort to be good to your spouse", would people still disagree?
I think that's why officiants often like to emphasize the "marriage is hard work" line -- because alot of people assume that if you are a basically good person, being good to your spouse shouldn't require "conscious effort." That is, it should happen instinctively. Maybe that's true if you're a really, really good person, but for most of us I think not. Just warning us all that marriage is work, though, is perhaps less helpful than giving us some clue about what that "work" is and how to do it.
RFTS:
I like the word tending. It is evocative of gardening. You till, eradicate, plant your seeds, fertilize, scare off varmits, spray pesticides, and lovingly gather your veggies.
People interested in the 19thC should read Sources of the Self.
I like the word tending. It is evocative of gardening. You till, eradicate, plant your seeds, fertilize, scare off varmits, spray pesticides, and lovingly gather your veggies.
Wow! I was about to write almost the exact same thing. Except for the pesticides.
Mmm. I'm restraining myself from typing in big chunks of 'Two Tramps In Mud Time' here, because it would be hokey.
"Working on your relationship" or "Relationships are work" makes it sound as if relationships entail a whole bunch of effortful tedium that's unrewarding in itself, but necessary for the relationship to stay alive. And the thing is, if the 'work' you're doing to care for and support your partner isn't rewarding in itself, that's already a problem.
I'm fine with either "making a conscious effort to be good to your spouse" or "being loving and attentive", but think you need to add to the end of either one "often even (and perhaps especially) when you don't feel like". Which can be hard. "Work" doesn't seem incorrect.
177 was to 168 -- I didn't see anything after that.
175: It's been awhile. Why does he say the Victorians are our "contemporaries"? It's partly the Romantic stuff, but I don't remember what else.
Work includes the work you have to do on yourself to keep the other person interested and attracted.
I think that's why officiants often like to emphasize the "marriage is hard work" line -- because alot of people assume that if you are a basically good person, being good to your spouse shouldn't require "conscious effort." That is, it should happen instinctively.
I agree with Di. So many people act like their marriage will work bc they are a good person and their spouse is a good person. "she/he isn't the type to get divorced" as if those who do are just cutting and running.
It sounds too much like Bush/Rush/Hannity.
officiants often like to emphasize the "marriage is hard work" line
My objection to this is really just that it's better brought up at another time and not included in the ceremony. It's a buzzkill. </sissy-girl>
177: the idea that work can be "play for mortal stakes" would seem to contradict the connotation of drudgery the word has for you, no?
178: Here, I'm out of the realm of stuff I'm certain of, and am mostly just saying things, but I'd think that if "even when you don't feel like it" describes a large part of the time (or 'too large' a part of the time, with no objective standards for 'too large') something has to change there -- you have to make the situation change somehow so that being good to your spouse makes you happy. If it doesn't, I don't believe most people could keep up the 'work' necessary to do it, and I'm not sure it would be a good thing to do if you could.
Oh, and I missed it if you brought it up before, DK, but I'm sorry to hear about your divorce. Best of luck.
Work includes the work you have to do on yourself to keep the other person interested and attracted.
Now, this is a formulation I loathe. It sounds like "the work you must do to gain/retain your partner's approval." Yuck.
183: What I was thinking of was 'when love and need are one' -- while I may be overreacting to 'work', I think will is dismissing 'love' as useless sentimentality rather than as a force underlying action.
You don't understand -- on the veldt, primitive man needed to hunt down the marriage bison, while primitive woman waited in her tree for marriage steaks to be delivered to her.
187: Will is, of course, right to do so. I leave it to mcmanus to locate marriage and its attendent commitments in a materialist critique, with special attention to "love" as the opium of the spouses.
188: The tragedy, of course, was that the tree was not located on the veldt, and so the marital steaks never arrived. And thus the difficulties in communication between the sexes were written into our very DNA.
I think will is dismissing 'love' as useless sentimentality rather than as a force underlying action.
No. Love is the motivator and the reward. But you cannot use the word love as if your relationship will work out simply if you love your spouse.
Work is an easy, simple word. If you ladies prefer to write a long paragraph instead of saying the word "work," more power to you.
My objection to this is really just that it's better brought up at another time and not included in the ceremony. It's a buzzkill
I'll go along with that. Not just because it's a buzz kill, but if you don't emphasize the point before the ceremony, it's a little late. I mean, really, if you didn't understand that part of the committment before you got up in your floofy dress/tux, are you going to call a time out to give it due thought?
Clearly, in the absence of Buck and Snark, I'm all set to be married to LB.
If you cook, I'll do all the dishes.
The absence of buck and snark are important to the success of a marriage.
I mean, really, if you didn't understand that part of the committment before you got up in your floofy dress/tux, are you going to call a time out to give it due thought?
The marriage ceremony isn't just about the bride and the groom. The celebrant is speaking to everyone in the room. It is supposed to help re-charge married people in the room.
194: Yay! You know, doing dishes is hard work.
Snuck and bark, on the other hand, describes how the dog reacts to the arrival of guests. I'm not sure exactly how this is relevant, but it seems like the sort of thing that should be acknowledged.
Work is an easy, simple word. If you ladies prefer to write a long paragraph instead of saying the word "work," more power to you.
Wait, you're making the point that making a marriage work requires thoughtful effort, then you want to weasel out with an "easy, simple word?" Bah.
Now, this is a formulation I loathe.
A lot of people get bored or decide they can do better. I don't like it either, but it happens.
I'm fine with either "making a conscious effort to be good to your spouse" or "being loving and attentive", but think you need to add to the end of either one "often even (and perhaps especially) when you don't feel like". Which can be hard.
This, including especially cases where the reason that you don't feel like it is that your spouse is cranky, unpleasant, and in the wrong.
The absence of buck and snark are important to the success of a marriage.
A good marriage can survive the presence of one or the other, but surely not both.
A lot of people get bored or decide they can do better. I don't like it either, but it happens.
Sure, but if the stupid schmuck decides he "can do better" because I'm not bending over backwards to be attractive to him, then I'm happy to help him carry his bags to the door.
I should have added that the commitment issue is already incorporated in (most) vows. Better/worse, richer/poorer, &c. Thereto I plighted my troth.
A good marriage can survive the presence of one or the other, but surely not both.
At least not in Virginia.
Based on this thread, my wife called me this morning to tell me that Unfogged has too many lawyers.
ACK!
This is good. Never wise to make promises you're not going to keep.
203: I'm just trying to get at what people are talking about when they say stuff like "We're at different places in our lives right now."
Congratulations Cala.
it's all casseroles and glass grapes
Glass grapes! I'm stealing this.
210: you think they mean "I'm at an attractive place and you're at an unattractive place"? Maybe sometimes, but I don't think that's the typical undercurrent.
209: Sniffed the caladad afterwards: "Oh, the honor and obey thing is a Protestant thing."
I love tuna casserole. It's a last-meal food.
The serious hits to a marriage come out of left field - long term unemployment; serious illness or disability; unforeseen bankruptcy; death of a child... You can't train for these sort of thing, there are no practice pitches. Most people who get as far as far as getting married have learned how to give and take in relationships, run a joint bank account and compromise on sex, that's the easy bit. Staying strong for each other when the whole edifice falls down round your ears is slightly harder.
217: hmm... I'm not so sure. A lot of divorces may follow these sorts of "serious hits", but an awful lot don't.
I'm just trying to get at what people are talking about when they say stuff like "We're at different places in our lives right now."
Well, now, I can't speak for everyone. But I suspect people who explain their divorce thus are really saying something like, "Oh, you really don't want/need to know the details about why we're getting divorced, so here's a nice little neutral-sounding nugget so we can move on to a different topic."
210: No, but I didn't have in mind just physical attraction. There's boredom, differences in career outcomes, etc.
One possibly noteworthy bar exam comment: I swore after I took the first one that I'd never do it again, panicked a bit while studying for the second one because I only had three weeks to prepare and it had been four years since I took a test, and then just absolutely cruised through the thing. That second bar was probably one of the best exams I ever wrote, and I'm another of those assholes with a knack for test-taking. My wife, who's not a great exam-taker, was pregnant, and studied even less than I did, also cruised. So if anyone finds themself similarly situated and is reluctant to relocate for fear of having to take the bar again, it's not necessarily a big deal.
Unless you're Kath/leen Su/llivan, of course.
Most people who get as far as far as getting married have learned how to give and take in relationships, run a joint bank account and compromise on sex, that's the easy bit.
I think you may be overestimating alot of people who get married. And underestimating how hard some of these compromises really are.
Did Kath/leen Su/llivan fail the bar on relocating? That's hilarious.
217: I kind of doubt that. That doesn't describe the circumstances around the divorce of my parents, my mom's prior divorce, uncle #1's three divorces, aunt's divorce, uncle #2's (other side) two divorces, or grandparents' divorce.
The serious hits to a marriage come out of left field - long term unemployment; serious illness or disability; unforeseen bankruptcy; death of a child... You can't train for these sort of thing, there are no practice pitches.
Agreed. Add to it a child's legal trouble, a child's educational problems, health problems of parents, etc
209: Sniffed the caladad afterwards: "Oh, the honor and obey thing is a Protestant thing."
Excellent. We didn't have the 'honor and obey' bit either. We used some Catholic counterpart of the BCP vows; not the Use of York, but something like that.
'With this ring I thee wed, with my body I thee worship, and with all my worldly goods I thee endow' is a lovely thing to say to someone. And an even lovelier thing to mean, but, you know, work.
I think OFE is right that a hit like that can take down a marriage that would have survived and looked healthy without it. But plenty of marriages fall apart without any such external reason.
How's Moped?
Cute as a button. A fussy, constantly pooping button.
My goodness! You people impress me by being even more pessimistic about marriage than I am, except maybe for LB. Of course, in my set it is considered a bit sell-out to get actually married since teh gays can't--which doesn't mean that no one gets married; it just means that people feel guilty about it.
231: I am insanely optimistic about marriage. Well, mine, at any rate.
When everyone's passed the bar, will they come back here and start commenting??
231: In my set likewise, which is why we tended to get married in our late 30s when we started worrying about pensions and insurance and that sort of shit. So people tended to have done their "starter marriages", without actually troubling the state or the church.
When everyone's passed the bar, will they come back here and start commenting??
No, they'll go to a bar. Get a grip.
Those logic puzzles make me cry.
I will hear no more from you, then, mister, about my illogic, because I fucking love logic puzzles.
'With this ring I thee wed, with my body I thee worship, and with all my worldly goods I thee endow'
This is truly gorgeous.
235: Indeed, I certainly hope so. The bar across the street from my mother's law school contained a jukebox which included "I Fought the Law and the Law Won," a popular post-exam selection.
I think 217 is somewhat off the mark. These sort of `hits' are the sorts of things that it seems many marriages don't survive ... even if otherwise there is every reason to believe the couple would stay together. But there are a lot of divorces of people who just drift apart, etc. At least, that's been my (outsiders) experience.
217 rings very true at least to someone whose marriage has survived it.
The serious hits to a marriage come out of left field - long term unemployment; serious illness or disability; unforeseen bankruptcy; death of a child... You can't train for these sort of things, there are no practice pitches.
You know, in some ways you can train for these things. Maybe not in the sense of going through a test run of major tragedy. But the skills that can help a marriage through the hardest times are surely close kin to the skills you develop through the more mundane moments in life. That's the "work" you should be doing -- learing to communicate respectfully, to listen empathically, to plan and proceed cooperatively. The major tragedies test these skills in ways none of us ever wants to be tested. The marriages that survive such tests are extraordinary indeed.
Congratulations, Cala.
Now, nobody better ask me how long a registered sex offender has before he gets his probation revoked after being evicted and wandering around homeless.
registered sex offender In which state?
Congrats Charley. That must have been weird to take a bar exam again.
Thanks people earlier in this thread and in w-lfs-n's radio thread last night.
3: I slept poorly last night (something like 4:00-6:20), but I think I'll sleep fine tonight.
Good luck, bar warriors. Just look around the room and tell yourself, "5 out of 6 will passl" That sixth guy in the row probably didn't take the Conviser course.
Charley, How old are you and why are you taking a bar exam?
32
29: For many people, this is exactly what benzodiazepines (Valium & friends) are good for.
I've used benzos. Clonazepam and lorazepam are my drugs of choice, but they don't work all on their own, and they can put you to sleep.
Sometimes tests stress me out. Other times studying for a test makes me anxious. I can occasionally be terrified by the telephone. Planning for a big project like writing a paper can make me so anxious that I'm paralyzed. Other times, I'm worry free. When I'm really anxious, words swim, and I can't read. Let's not talk aboiut writing coherent sentences in organized paragraphs.
Serious question: Has anyone taken the California Bar exam? I'm told that they watch you when you go into the bathroom. Would something like a benzo be banned. Food certainly is. Are other states like this?
We must have a pretty good California contingent around here, but I'm not one of them. I do have a law school friend who got disbarred in California for pretty much the best reason ever, but it would be a lot funnier if he weren't a friend, not to mention the impact on his ex-wife and daughter.
How come the states that let you waive in are mostly places where no one would want to live?
Oh, and Congratulations Cala. I don't know anything about healthy marriages, only bad ones. I wonder what DominEditrix would say. She didn't think of parenting as work. I once remembered Tom Hansk saying something about his relationship with Rita Wilson. He thought that people who described marriage as work must no be very happily married. I guess that his first marriage was really difficult, so his second seems like a breeze.
247 -- BG, I'll be 49 in October. I find myself in the courts of Maryland nearly every year, maybe 3 times every five years, always pro hac. (I'm admitted in Montana and DC). I live in Maryland, and although I don't currently plan to drop my DC office for one in Maryland (as readers of my little blog know, Plan A is stay in DC, Plan B is back to Montana), I've got ties enough to Maryland that this made sense, on paper, back in the spring when I decided to do it.
The Maryland out-of-state attorney exam can't really be compared to that of the new grads: half a day, open book, but then the questions are a lot tougher. (I'll post a couple on my blog tomorrow -- I left them in the car, and I'm not going to pay the valets to bring up the car so I can fetch them).
A friend of mine took the Georgia Bar, but then he followed his wife to Massachsuetts for her residency, so he took the bar here. He hasn't practiced long enough to be waived in, so he's now taking the VT bar, since they moved. (There seems to be a special Northern New England deal. Ordinarily you need to have practiced 5 years before you can get waived in, but NH, VT and Maine will waive people in after three years of practice in one of those states.) I think that my friend should check his multi-state score and try to get admitted to the DC bar.
Actually, when I bothered to go and look, I learned that Washington now has reciprocity with a bunch of states, so maybe I'm in better shape than I thought if I ever move again. But I'm not sure whether reciprocity works if I'm admitted there but haven't practiced there in several years.
And...holy shit! I withdraw 248.2. Looks like reciprocity and similar stuff has gotten a whole lot more common since last time I looked. If I'm reading (skimming) the rules correctly, looks like I could get admitted in a whole bunch of places without taking anything more than the MPRE (and, in most places, paying a pretty impressive application fee).
223: I think you may be overestimating a lot of people who get married. And underestimating how hard some of these compromises really are.
Yes. Some sexual differences can be compromised away. If it's just a question of preferred frequency, you can try to split the difference somehow, or have the higher-desire partner fill in with solo activities. If one of you wants to do something that the other is neutral about, you may be able to get an agreement to do this activity some of the time, either because the neutral partner just wants his/her partner to be happy, or in exchange for something else.
But if one of you really wants something that the other finds repulsive, I don't see how compromise is possible. Even an agreement of "I'll forget about asking for A and B if you'll agree to do C" seems impossible under such circumstances, for how can you truly enjoy an activity knowing someone you love must endure it through gritted teeth?
Sometimes you just have to learn to live with irreconcilable differences - or not. Or live with the differences for a time, while hoping that you can somehow find a way to grow back together instead of apart.
None of this is easy. And I can assure you that just because two of you enjoyed something together at one time is no guarantee that you always will.
When it comes to the bar exam, just remember: If at first you don't succeed, try, try, try, try, try, try, try, try, try, try, try, try, try again.
250: Some decoration for her new office?
And I can assure you that just because two of you enjoyed something together at one time is no guarantee that you always will.
Absolutely. I used to enjoy voting for Catherine with the rest of Unfogged. But, then, after a couple of times, I grew tired of it. Everyone else seemed to keep enjoying it, but, for me, I started to crave something different. Dana Priest's articles about the treatment of veterans made me feel things that I hadn't felt while voting for Catherine. Soon, I was scrolling past Catherine to go vote for Dana.
Sure Catherine is hot and seems very nice, but, sadly, our day has passed.
I do have a law school friend who got disbarred in California for pretty much the best reason ever
Tantalizing, that.
102 is hilarious.
Also, congratulations, Cala!
I've been married three and a half days.
How the hell did I miss this?? Congratulations, Cala!
I missed it too: congrats to you and your new husband. And, of course, to your mother.
How the hell did I miss this??
You were probably busy rigging a beauty contest or something.
Glass grapes, hee.
Add another congrats to the list, Cala.
Yay, Cala! Congratulations!
I'd have liked to know the date in advance (as we did with NCProsecutor), but I'm a little concerned that Cala is already commenting here within 3 days of her wedding.
I'm a little concerned that Cala is already commenting here within 3 days of her wedding.
Obviously, she just couldn't bear to miss all the optimistic wisdom we've all had to offer on the joys of marriage.
Er, um, it's not just weary drudgery doomed to eventual bitterness and despair. Keep your eye on the glass grapes!
259: E-mail me if you're curious. Facts were distinctive enough that I'm squeamish about posting.
Did anyone ever summarize all of this?
1. If you are a good and decent person, you will have a long and happy marriage.
2. Love is all you need to overcome any marital difficulty. If your marriage is faltering, clearly you lack the capacity to love sufficiently.
3. Marriage is not work. It is happy, happy, fun, fun play time.
If your marriage is faltering, clearly you lack the capacity to love sufficiently.
This is slightly unfair, Will. It could just as easily mean you are unworthy of love.
Also, don't forget:
4. If your marriage is faltering (or could be made to falter), and especially if substantial material assets are involved, Will stands at the ready to offer his professional advice!
Absolutely Di, absolutely.
How could I forget being unworthy of love?
Crap, how'd I miss that a wedding happened? Congratulations, Cala! Many happy years.
Whoa! Thanks, all. Haven't even looked at this website for like 4 days. It was grueling hell, but it's over now, and I'm hungover.
So when do you find out if you pass?
It usually takes them until November.