Re: Self-Regard

1

Indeed.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 8:45 AM
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You were there, of course, but from the description alone I would think the motivation was something like, "Am I cut too? Do I look ok? Yes?"

I'm suggesting he guy next to him was part of the story.


Posted by: I don't pay | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 8:47 AM
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Or maybe "This is so great, I look much better than I did last year." If he's comparing himself to his own baseline, the superhero next to him isn't relevant.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 8:50 AM
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"Am I cut too? Do I look ok? Yes?"

You'll have to trust me that the look on his face was pure self-love.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 8:51 AM
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I don't think it's just American guys, but I've certainly seen that and various close cousins before. Some people find it oddly charming, I think. That's basically Will Farrell's schtick.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 8:52 AM
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I know that guy. He was a quadruple amputee, and then through sheer force of will he grew his arms and legs back. It's a very inspiring story, and your shallow response sickens me.


Posted by: Adam Kotsko | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 8:53 AM
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He was a quadruple amputee, and then through sheer force of will he grew his arms and legs back.

The part that warmed my heart was his fundraising effort for blind albino orphans. "Each inch I grow, I'll donate $10,000 for these souls more deserving than I." What a champ.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 9:00 AM
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he grew his arms and legs back


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 9:01 AM
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I modeled for an artist for the first time last night. (Yes, nude.) Upon looking at the not-yet-completed drawing, I thought, "Damn, I look pretty good."

Am I vain? I suppose so, but I can accept that.


Posted by: zadfrack | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 9:02 AM
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Am I vain? I suppose so, but I can accept that.

Big of you.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 9:02 AM
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Big of you.

IYKWIM


Posted by: Matt F | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 9:06 AM
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zadfrack is going to be crushed when the drawing is finished and there's a big "Note: Artist's conception" in the corner.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 9:07 AM
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MANDOM!


Posted by: NCProsecutor | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 9:08 AM
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Artist: It's a boy!
Zadfrack: And what a boy!
Artist: Zadfrack, that's the umbilical cord.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 9:12 AM
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I'm going to disagree with what Ogged seems to be implying. Sure, "posing" like that in a public place shows a deficiency in social awareness. In that, mockable.

But pride, even vanity, in one's own body is, in man or woman, a positive thing. It beats the hell out of its opposite. Among other things, it gives rise to that vaunted, elusive "confidence."

We have to watch the excesses of every virtue, but I think of physical self-satisfaction as a good.


Posted by: I don't pay | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 9:14 AM
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I think of physical self-satisfaction as a good

What you do in the privacy of your own home is none of our business, IDP.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 9:18 AM
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Which of the two guys was you, Ogged?


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 9:20 AM
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... but I think of physical self-satisfaction as a good.

"I feel like I'm watching an episode of Heroes."


Posted by: arthegall | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 9:20 AM
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It is funny, however, when a man is posing with weights in front of the gym mirror and he has less weight than the woman next to him. N.B. don't pose with 15lb.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 9:26 AM
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"I feel like I'm watching an episode of Heroes."

I'm not exactly an X-games guy, but I saw that last night. I have no idea how he walked away. I also saw the dude wipe out on the double backflip on the motorcycle. Those guys are amazing.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 9:28 AM
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I have no idea how he walked away

Landing just right, I guess. Though landing just right from that height should earn you a black belt in judo right on the spot.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 9:32 AM
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Yeah, and he hit a part of the ramp that still had a bit of an angle, which I think might have helped. A little. The slo-mo at the end is terrifying.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 9:34 AM
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"I feel like I'm watching an episode of Heroes."

Holy shit, man.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 9:35 AM
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The shoes thing is definitely kind of weird. I still don't understand why that happened.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 9:36 AM
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19: Some of my proudest moments at the gym were along the lines of "Former Texas Governor Ann Richards used the lat pulldown machine before me. Now I get to add more than 100 lbs. of resistance and feel like a real man. [Sob.] I am a lost little boy. Will you help me?"


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 9:38 AM
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I still don't understand why that happened.

His heels hit the ground first.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 9:38 AM
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Yeah, and he hit a part of the ramp that still had a bit of an angle, which I think might have helped. A little.

Also looks like he took part of the shock with his legs on impact.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 9:39 AM
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I'm with Mr. Selflove on this one. Ogged's argument is the converse of the one neocon "feminists" use: Why are you so worried about Carhart etc... when there are women in Repressistan we could be liberating? Hypocrisy! Similarly, Mr. Selflove can be proud of his own damn body because he's the one responsible for maintaining it. Whatever Mr. Evenmorecut does with his body is his business.


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 9:45 AM
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I'm with Mr. Selflove

Bias.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 9:49 AM
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The slo-mo at the end is terrifying.

Gross understatement.

OTOH, I wish I could make my shoes fly off like that when I plop down on the couch at the end of the day.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 9:56 AM
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only an American male

Only in America would we think that the behavior of some guy at the gym tells us something about our national character.


Posted by: DaveB | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 9:59 AM
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re: the the vid in 18

He could be quite injured and still walking away.* Adrenalin does amazing things.

I was once present at the scene of a motorbike crash; a friend crashed into the back of a parked car doing about 50mph, and by sheer chance, a couple of us happened to be just round the corner when it happened. We saw him go past, and a minute or so later someone who'd seen the crash ran to get us, and we all ran to the scene.

He was standing up talking to us for a few minutes before the ambulance arrived. It later transpired he'd broken one of his legs in 6 places. He'd actually gone through the car -- in the rear window and out the front -- and had hit the car hard enough to have moved it several feet. Despite that, he was standing on both legs carrying out a conversation.

* although I presume the medics wouldn't have let him get up if they'd suspected broken bones.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 10:00 AM
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He could be quite injured and still walking away.

Yeah, I've been looking at the news stories, expecting to read about a broken pelvis and some cracked ribs, but nothing yet...


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 10:02 AM
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although I presume the medics wouldn't have let him get up if they'd suspected broken bones

Thought the same thing. The first aid I learned emphasized non-movement until checked.


Posted by: I don't pay | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 10:03 AM
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Then again, I walked off a 'cliff' (only about 15 - 20ft high, though) once while drunk and trying navigate home through a forest in total darkness.* I saw what I thought were some low ferns. Ah-hah, the path lies this way. Of course they weren't low ferns, they were the tops of pine trees. The first I knew of it was when I went into free-fall. Got up without a scratch.

* we used to drunkenly celebrate mid-summer in a hilltop ruined broch when we were in our teens. Specifically - http://www.rcahms.gov.uk/pls/portal/newcanmore.newcandig_p_coll_details?p_arcnumlink=450981
although it usually looks more like http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/435344


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 10:15 AM
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It seems to me that men exhibit irrational self-confidence* more than women, and that physical vanity is just one manifestation of this general phenomenon. Does anyone else have this sense?

*self-confidence greater than the facts justify.


Posted by: baa | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 10:17 AM
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once while drunk [...] I went into free-fall. Got up without a scratch.

Well, being drunk is famously the best way of surviving a fall - without a conscious effort to control your body, the impact energy dissipates along lines of least resistance, which include (relatively) flexy things like tendons and ligaments.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 10:21 AM
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re: 37

Yeah. No pain, no bruising even.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 10:24 AM
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Only in America would we think that the behavior of some guy at the gym tells us something about our national character.

Ogged's clearly just angling for a spot as an NYT columnist.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 10:28 AM
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36: Or maybe, at least as far as looks go, it's rational self-confidence. After all, while it's nice to have earth-shattering personal beauty, earth-shattering personal beauty doesn't mean that you'll be much happier than anyone else, and lacking phenomenal good looks doesn't actually cause you to be miserable. Good relationships, a satisfying level of fitness, a fairly good amount of sex with people you find attractive--those things are attainable almost regardless of looks. (I was exceedingly startled to realize this, but I can testify, as a distinctly below-par-looking person, that it's true.) And in fact, the more you worry about the adequacy of your looks the less likely you are to wring any advantage from them--vid my two most beautiful female friends, the one dating a string of real assholes and the other almost unable to get a date with anyone she liked at all; not to mention my handsome, built male friend and his string of women-with-whom-he-had-nothing-in-common, culminating in the one who did not want him to pursue painting because it took up too much space.


Posted by: Frowner | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 10:30 AM
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self-confidence greater than the facts justify

As regarding people's sense of their own appearance, this is pernicious, holding people to standards usually unduly critical. Every reader of these threads appreciates the damage that treating women's appearance as if it could be evaluated objectively causes; nobody should be judged by such standards.

On preview, also what Frowner said.


Posted by: I don't pay | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 10:35 AM
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I have no idea how he walked away

I saw that last night and first thing I said was "He's dead."


Posted by: Ugh | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 10:46 AM
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36--
yeah, i'll sign on to all of those sentiments, and go frowner.

but i'm thinking those thoughts are not the thoughts of the guy that ogged watched preening in front of the mirror.

flexing this tricep helps me to remember the importance of good relationships and the irrelevance of good looks.


Posted by: kid bitzer | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 10:55 AM
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40: I do think that remarkably good-looking people are at a disadvantage insofar as they are pretty much limited to other remarkably good-looking people. There are some great people in that group, but it still tends to be disproportionately filled with vain assholes -- i.e., people who have little going for them except good looks.


Posted by: Adam Kotsko | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 10:55 AM
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I do think that remarkably good-looking people are at a disadvantage

Just keep telling yourself that, Kotsko.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 11:03 AM
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t still tends to be disproportionately filled with vain assholes -- i.e., people who have little going for them except good looks.

I'm not really sure that's true, it's a stereotype much like the one that good looking people are often dumb. Sure, some really really great looking people have probably been pandered to their entire lives, but in my experience the really good looking people I know (and I know a few) aren't really much more likely to be arseholes than anyone else.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 11:06 AM
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So that's why I can't get laid!


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 11:06 AM
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I agree that there can be "higher rationality" in never doubting yourself. You see this a lot with doctors who make snap decisions and never waver. This can be a real, objective success factor. No one wants a vacillating surgeon. Similarly, you meet many entrepreneurs who are 100% confident that they will succeed. Objectively, this is crazy, but it helps them do what they do.


Posted by: baa | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 11:12 AM
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it's a stereotype much like the one that good looking people are often dumb

But surely this is one of the most useful stereotypes in existence? If a given person is really,really attractive, what are the odds that they're also really, really smart? I recognize the fallacy here, but this fallacy is all that stands between assuming beautiful people are dumb, and weeding out the smart ones and gutting them from crotch to sternum.


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 11:16 AM
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If a given person is really,really attractive, what are the odds that they're also really, really smart?

Actually, as has been remarked (on this site, somewhere, on some previous thread) quite a lot higher than pure chance. Ditto athletic ability, etc.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 11:17 AM
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and gutting them from crotch to sternum.

This is more fearsome when you don't misread it as "from crotch to scrotum".


Posted by: Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 11:18 AM
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The feminist argument has gone too far when we start defending gym rats, people.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 11:19 AM
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48: Probably a good place to note the difference between "it's good for them" and "it's good for the rest of us."


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 11:21 AM
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The feminist argument has gone too far when we start defending gym rats, people

We'll try to remember that when we start doing it.


Posted by: I don't pay | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 11:22 AM
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I don't know why you people are going on and on about the fall in the video in 18 -- I was clearly only posting it because the kids waving their shirts at the very beginning provide a clear parallel to the self-regarding gym man. Start 'em young, that's what the X-games are all about.

Also, Ogged: I'm not exactly an X-games guy, but I saw that last night.

You mean, while you were just flipping through the channels, you 'happened' to settle on some skateboarding? And watched a few jumps, maybe? They are some of the best athletes in the world, or so I hear.


Posted by: arthegall | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 11:23 AM
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I do think that remarkably good-looking people are at a disadvantage insofar as they are pretty much limited to other remarkably good-looking people. There are some great people in that group, but it still tends to be disproportionately filled with vain assholes

Remarkably wealthy people are also at a disadvantage in that they are pretty much limited to living in neighborhoods with other remarkably wealthy people.

Remarkably intelligent people are also at a disadvantage in that they are pretty much limited to working with other remarkably intelligent people.

We are using a very curious definition of "disadvantage", aren't we?


Posted by: Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 11:29 AM
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I'd also dispute the 'pretty much limited to other remarkably good-looking people' claim. I know lots of couples where there's a fair sized disparity in 'looks' between the two people.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 11:31 AM
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Start 'em young

Great, I don't get it.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 11:33 AM
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57: Right. They tend to have the same dating options as anyone else, plus a whole lot of others. That they tend to choose from among those (attractive) others doesn't mean they're "limited", and it's hard to call it a "disadvantage."


Posted by: Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 11:34 AM
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Are you going through Kotsko's ouvre claim by claim, ttaM? Because we still need a compelling response to the claim that all of society's ills can be laid at the feet of Tim Burke. Harder to refute than I'd have thought.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 11:35 AM
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49: I recognize the fallacy here, but this fallacy is all that stands between assuming beautiful people are dumb, and weeding out the smart ones and gutting them from crotch to sternum.

I've reread this numerous times, and I still can't figure out what it means, who is in danger of being gutted, and why.

Maybe the fact that I don't get it means I'm one of the dumb ones. Does that mean I should be wary of people with filet knives, or am I safe?


Posted by: My Alter Ego | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 11:36 AM
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Actually, as has been remarked (on this site, somewhere, on some previous thread) quite a lot higher than pure chance. Ditto athletic ability, etc.

I suspect that part of this is that often what we think of as beauty is largely expensive grooming and being fit and so much of what measures intelligence (standardized test scores, universities) is influenced by income, too. So you have an expensively groomed person who's been educated and goes to the gym. Chances are, they'd have to work at it to be ugly.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 11:37 AM
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Does that mean I should be wary of people with filet knives, or am I safe?

I think it means that you're great looking. Feel free to have copious amounts of sex or wear lycra.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 11:38 AM
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59: It started on the veldt eons ago and now there are no poor or ugly people.


Posted by: Biohazard | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 11:39 AM
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I do think that remarkably good-looking people are at a disadvantage insofar as they are pretty much limited to other remarkably good-looking people

Not limited in that regard, as others have noted.

They can, though, be limited in this regard: people they date may well fall for them rather more easily than they otherwise would.

Let me try that again: I have a young, very attractive female friend who finds herself repeatedly, desperately shouting out after a month or three of a relationship: Stop it! Why does everybody keep falling in love with me??

She's never had to try very hard for people to be taken with her; her relationship-building skills are therefore a little lacking. And she has trouble extricating herself if she'd like to, because her men tend to be willing to compromise endlessly rather than standing on their own two feet and risking (gasp) her leaving them.

And she leaves them rather easily because it's just never been hard at all for her to find someone else.

Ugh, ultimately. When her looks eventually fade, she'll find herself bewildered.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 11:44 AM
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60: Tim Burke has finally decided to stop being reasonable now. Soon the Fontana Labs-SCMT axis of "come on, guys, let's not be so alarmist" will fall as well.

That's the thing about the blogosphere -- sooner or later, everyone comes around to agreeing with me. That's why my blog is called The Weblog.


Posted by: Adam Kotsko | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 11:45 AM
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The first I knew of it was when I went into free-fall. Got up without a scratch.

Once, while drunk, I fell down my front steps and landed face-down on the walkway. Got up without a scratch.

No, wait; got up with my face and arm cut and bruised and a fat lip, tasting blood and gravel. Now I remember.


Posted by: JL | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 11:48 AM
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You bastards. Every time I fall when drunk I somehow end up in the hospital with a concussion. I fell/jumped off a porch when drunk and pretty much broke my ass.


Posted by: Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 11:51 AM
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I think 65 is unfair to good-looking people. We *all* tend to be mostly limited to other people in our social class, and looks are one rough factor in determining people's peer groups. And believe it or not, even beautiful people can have the same kinds of relationship issues as everyone else. I wouldn't be surprised, actually, if sweet-natured beautiful women got driven into shyness by being stared at all the time, or (as maybe your friend), if sweet-natured beautiful women did find men deciding they were "in love" pretty quickly and found the implied responsibilities thereof something they really did not want to deal with.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 11:53 AM
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Is it clear that being good-looking is immediately comparable to being unusually intelligent or being wealthy?


Posted by: Adam Kotsko | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 11:58 AM
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I think 65 is unfair to good-looking people.

Not saying that the scenario I described will be the case for all good-looking people. It's more likely for them, though, and not necessarily through any fault of their own.

Of course beautiful people can have the same types of relationship issues we all do (can).


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 11:59 AM
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69--
well, right, but this:
"looks are one rough factor in determining people's peer groups"

is surely a salient, noteworthy feature, no?

i mean--that appearance has the same kinds of effects as wealth, intelligence, social class, etc., in both expanding and narrowing one's social opportunities.

though i suspect that the effect is magnified for women, minimized for men.

'each teaming mother, anxious for her race,
craves for her young the blessing of a face.
yet Vane could tell what ills from beauty spring,
and Sedley cursed the face that pleased a king."

forgive me, dr. j, if i got some of that wrong. vane and sedley were two mistresses of restoration monarchs, can't recall which. bummer having a name like vane, and being a looker, too, huh?


Posted by: kid bitzer | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 12:00 PM
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Is it clear that being good-looking is immediately comparable to being unusually intelligent or being wealthy?

For women? Yes, that is generally assumed--because for women, looks are a material asset. Supposedly.

For guys? Less so; depends on other factors. For educated upper middle class type guys, yes, looks are an asset; for "slackers" (including the poor), they aren't. Socially speaking.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 12:01 PM
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Remarkably intelligent people are also at a disadvantage in that they are pretty much limited to working with other remarkably intelligent people.

This could be true:

http://www.gnxp.com/blog/2007/04/intercourse-and-intelligence.php


Posted by: joeo | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 12:01 PM
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Tim Burke has finally decided to stop being reasonable now. Soon the Fontana Labs-SCMT axis of "come on, guys, let's not be so alarmist" will fall as well.

"Burke" sounds like a Norman name; surrender was to be expected. It will not all be so easy, Kotsko.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 12:02 PM
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When her looks eventually fade, she'll find herself bewildered.

Or...


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 12:02 PM
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It's more likely for them, though, and not necessarily through any fault of their own.

Agreed, for sure.

72: Of course it's noteworthy. But we're a looks-conscious society, and as was pointed out upthread, part of what counts as "attractive" is a certain projection of the ability to afford time and money to achieve a certain look (as well as the cultural capital to be aware of which looks are "classy" and which aren't).


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 12:03 PM
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also--
on appearance and mating choices,
i seem to recall a study from some years ago
that claimed that couples who were roughly matched
in attractiveness were more likely to last longer.
gross disparities in looks led to earlier break-ups.

and it was a reputable source, too--
people, or us, or something like that.

to whatever extent that's plausible (and it has not held up in my own case, thank god and my forgiving wife), it will limit something, i.e. not the choice of initial mates, but the choice of steady, long-term sustainable mates.


Posted by: kid bitzer | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 12:04 PM
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all of society's ills can be laid at the feet of Tim Burke

When will his reign of terror cease? When, O Tim Burke, do you mean to cease abusing our patience? How long is that madness of yours still to mock us?


Posted by: baa | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 12:04 PM
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For women? Yes, that is generally assumed--because for women, looks are a material asset.

B, you are or are not a free trader?


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 12:05 PM
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Not following the link in 74 because I hate those people (sorry, JE), but I'm sure that the argument is something about how on the veldt people who were better at coming up with evopsych rationalizations that they were the intellectually superior group were more likely to bore their prey into a trance, thereby being able to eat without having to run the risk of actually hunting.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 12:06 PM
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Tim, you failed to quote that entire paragraph.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 12:06 PM
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For educated upper middle class type guys, yes, looks are an asset; for "slackers" (including the poor), they aren't.

What about educated upper middle class slackers?


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 12:07 PM
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JoeO, that link is fantastic. Favorite datum:

"The chart for Wellesley displayed below shows that 0% of studio art majors were virgins, but 72% of biology majors were virgins, and 83% of biochem and math majors were virgins..."

I think this implies that theatre majors have negative virginity.


Posted by: baa | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 12:07 PM
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a guy who was much bigger, more cut, and more naturally well-proportioned [...] was clearly superior in relevant ways

I get the feeling ogged wasn't comparing the same body parts on the two gentlemen in question.


Posted by: Todd | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 12:08 PM
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re: 70

Being good looking is much commoner than either extreme intelligence or wealth.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 12:08 PM
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78: I like it when you comment in free verse.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 12:09 PM
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86--

that's a joke, right? pick how many standard deviations out you want to go, and you can always get equivalent rarities.


Posted by: kid bitzer | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 12:10 PM
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So, everyone -- in my controversial comment, I was saying that social pressures tend to push people toward people with their same attractiveness level. Attractiveness may well correlate with other desirable qualities such as intelligence or wealth, but there is no evidence that these types of qualities correlate strongly with the types of qualities that make for a healthy and enduring relationship.


Posted by: Adam Kotsko | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 12:10 PM
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I think this implies that theatre majors have negative virginity.

Only if you add Fallujah to the analysis. Therefore, the Lancet study is disproven!


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 12:11 PM
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87--
hadn't noticed that.
"that claimed that couples who were roughly matched"
is actually pretty good blank, for that matter.

maybe it was the early johnsonian echo that made me do it.


Posted by: kid bitzer | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 12:11 PM
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What the fuck are you people even talking about now? Being beautiful is a breeze, the guy at the gym was a tool, and skateboarders are, apparently, badass. The end!

Oh, and Tim Burke is the oppressor.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 12:13 PM
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I think this implies that theatre majors have negative virginity.

They're born without virginity.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 12:15 PM
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skateboarders are, apparently, badass


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 12:15 PM
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a healthy and enduring relationship.

That sounds interesting. What is it?


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 12:15 PM
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I wish the data from the link in 74 had been available to me back when I was deciding what to major in. Sign me up for studio art!


Posted by: My Alter Ego | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 12:15 PM
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Apo: heroic.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 12:16 PM
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and skateboarders are, apparently, badass

Genuinely hurtful.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 12:18 PM
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re: 88

No, it's not a joke. Obviously, if you are just picking standard deviations, then the equivalence holds.

However, what I had in mind was how we actually use the English words in conversation which obviously don't correspond across category to similarly calibrated deviations. If we used 'smart' to consistently mean 'top 5%' and 'good-looking' in similar way, then the equivalence would hold. But it doesn't seem to me that we do. There are all kinds of asymmetries in how we apply those superlatives across different categories.

Perhaps my threshold for 'good looking' is low but I'd much more readily apply it to a much higher percentage of people than I would 'really smart', say.*

* I realise this might be, of course, because I'm, by most standards, fairly smart, so the % of people who strike me as 'really smart' is low. But I'd still argue that the general claim seems right.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 12:19 PM
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ttaM, my instinct would be to say just the opposite: there are lots of very smart people, but relatively few very good-looking ones. But there are many more people I find attractive than I find genuinely good-looking, so maybe you're using "good-looking" in the way I use "attractive."


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 12:22 PM
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99--
yeah,
i guess that clicks with my own intuition.
fairly smart, so stingy of calling others 'smart'.
godawful ugly, so everyone looks good to me.

as a claim of general usage, we'd have to ask the general user.


Posted by: kid bitzer | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 12:22 PM
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Being good looking is much commoner than either extreme intelligence or wealth.

I fear that this will lead to one of those threads, but: I'm actually not sure there's such a thing as "extreme" beauty in the way that there are extremes of the others. The ultra wealthy are, literally, 50,000X wealthier than median. This week's Jessica Biel is, like 100X hotter than median, 10X hotter than someone who's pretty cute, and no more than 2X hotter than the hottest girl in your extended social circle (scientists excepted).

I don't think that whatever "advantage" we're talking about track linearily like that - is being 10X hotter than median as big a leg up as earning $400k? - but I do think that wealth tracks very differently. This is because of Republicans.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 12:23 PM
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I agree with ogged in #100.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 12:24 PM
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100--
semi-comity: i am using 'looks good to me', which is closer to 'attractive' than to 'classically elegant' or whatever.


Posted by: kid bitzer | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 12:25 PM
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ttaM, my instinct would be to say just the opposite: there are lots of very smart people, but relatively few very good-looking ones. But there are many more people I find attractive than I find genuinely good-looking, so maybe you're using "good-looking" in the way I use "attractive."

C'mon, people, this is useless without examples. So everyone's on the same page, we'll need to keep examples within the Mineshaft.

You first, O.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 12:27 PM
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For example, I am smart and beautiful.

Who wants to go next?


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 12:28 PM
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"I'm actually not sure there's such a thing as "extreme" beauty in the way that there are extremes of the others"

Yeah, I think that may be true and may also partly explain what I was calling the asymmetry in the application of the terms.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 12:29 PM
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More seriously, I think ogged may be overestimating the number of "very smart" people out there, or else using a pretty low standard.

Furthermore, given that "really smart" has to include everything from computer scientists to essayists, I think it would be pretty artificial to compare that pool to the number of people who look like Cary Grant or Marlene Dietrich.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 12:29 PM
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re: 106

And if we establish that I am, say, 2x smarter and more attractive than you, that gives us a way of calibrating our scale.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 12:30 PM
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I disagree with Timbot in 103.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 12:30 PM
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78, 87, and 101
make me wonder
what unfogged would be like
if all of us started to format our comments
as if they were free verse poems.

i imagine it would get tiresome
pretty fast,
but
when it did,
to breathe new life into the joke,
we could end each comment with
fuck you, clown.


Posted by: My Alter Ego | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 12:30 PM
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I am also smart and beautiful.

This may not turn out to be a very useful exercise.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 12:31 PM
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For example, I am smart and beautiful.

OK, so we've established the low end of the scale. Does anyone here not make it in?


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 12:31 PM
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In support of the experience described in 100, it strikes me that people are much more likely to be grouped, over time, on the basis of intelligence or wealth than attractiveness. So if you match a certain set of intelligence measurement criteria, as you've moved through The (or Burke's) System, you run into more and more people who have similarly met such criteria.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 12:31 PM
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I am often stupid and not that attractive if it helps.


Posted by: CJB | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 12:31 PM
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the number of people who look like Cary Grant or Marlene Dietrich

That's not the measuring stick, though. It's the number of people who look as good as the cute girl in HR.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 12:31 PM
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re: 116

Yes. Exactly.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 12:32 PM
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My mother says I'm smart and handsome.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 12:32 PM
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And with a fine head of red hair, too.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 12:33 PM
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I disagree with apo in 110.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 12:33 PM
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118: Funny, she says the same thing about me.


Posted by: My Alter Ego | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 12:33 PM
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That's not the measuring stick, though. It's the number of people who look as good as the cute girl in HR.

Gawd, with that attitude, I bet you let everyone measure your stick.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 12:33 PM
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102 seems right to me,
with wealth being the most easily metered, and the most uniform,
looks being hard to meter and subject to very low inter-rater reliability,
smarts somewhere in between.
(i.e., both that any particular kind of smarts, e.g. math whiz, is hard to quantify, and that one can be a math whiz and not so smart at music or languages or whatever.)

about the structure of the top end:
i agree that the best-looking people are not exceptionally better looking than the average people, not e.g. 50k times.
smarts i'm not so sure about. bach was a fucking genius. not just a better piano-player than you or me. not just better than the best kid in your high school, or the best piano-player alive. he was so fucking smart that he made brahms cry.

ditto for johnny von neumann.
in that regard, i do think there may be something like a 50k difference in smarts.


Posted by: kid bitzer | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 12:33 PM
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116, 117: I would agree, but it seems ogged has in mind an "objective" standard of beauty separate from individual opinion. At least, that's the only sense I can make of 100.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 12:35 PM
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111--
what, what.
you guys never use the return key?


Posted by: kid bitzer | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 12:35 PM
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111--
and if the last line of 111 was addressed to me, then fuck you too, with no return key.


Posted by: kid bitzer | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 12:36 PM
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ogged has in mind an "objective" standard of beauty separate from individual opinion

Sure. The classically beautiful with great bone structure, great skin, big eyes, nice lips, etc. You know, Christy Turlington. But there are lots and lots of people who aren't Christy Turlington who almost all of us would say are very cute.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 12:37 PM
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126: It's not. It's an old joke.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 12:37 PM
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you guys never use the return key?

No. Why would we?


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 12:37 PM
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61:
All I meant was that being really smart and/or really attractive is in itself a rather arbitrary sort of state to be in. I mean, sure, it helps if you listen to Heidegger while you work out, but you have to have be born a certain way to achieve maximum effect. To be born smart and pretty just makes the injustice of it all particularly manifest, so pretending that beautiful people are ditzy and smart people are nerdy is a fiction useful for keeping the plebes in line.


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 12:38 PM
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128--
fair enough. that's what 'if's are for.


Posted by: kid bitzer | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 12:38 PM
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if the last line of 111 was addressed to me

You were here for that, weren't you?


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 12:39 PM
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But there are lots and lots of people who aren't Christy Turlington who almost all of us would say are very cute.

So why set up such a distinction between them and Christy?


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 12:39 PM
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Extreme beauty is the pageant portion of the X-Games.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 12:40 PM
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What does it mean to be 'twice as smart' as someone, though? I'm reasonably bright -- I run into people who know a whole lot more than I do all the time, but much less often someone who I think is fundamentally a lot smarter than I am. (As smart, all the time, but not a lot of people I feel significantly inferior to.)

The smartest person I've ever met was a guy at MIT who I was in a bunch of classes with, who might as well have been from another planet. Hardly communicated verbally (that makes him sound nonfunctional, which he wasn't. Very pleasant, just not wordy at all.) but could effortlessly do things in math and physics classes that I couldn't get near. Never, in the time I was in classes with him, did I ever figure out anything first and be in the position of explaining it to him.

So, lots smarter than I am, but I have no idea at all how you'd quantify the difference -- the question "Was Kelly as much smarter than I am as Jessica Biel is prettier?" doesn't make any sense.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 12:40 PM
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Because most people instinctively recognize such a difference?


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 12:40 PM
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>>the number of people who look like Cary Grant or Marlene Dietrich

That's not the measuring stick, though. It's the number of people who look as good as the cute girl in HR.

But Ogged was talking about "very smart." If he was calling the guy in software who put the office NCAA pool into Excel as "very smart" and the cute girl in HR "very good-looking," then I'm not sure where his 100 comes from.

Anyway, I was trying to suggest that, just as there are different intelligences, there are different attractivenesses (ack), and it would be ridiculous to lump all smart people into one group, then compare the size of that group with the subset of attractive people who are "classically beautiful" or whatever.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 12:40 PM
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132--
nope, hard at work on a job.


Posted by: kid bitzer | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 12:40 PM
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67.68: Am I the only one that's ever fallen off a porch completely sober?


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 12:40 PM
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I'm not sure where his 100 comes from

That's okay, neither does he.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 12:41 PM
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I've walked into a 5' off-the-ground tree limb cold sober. Smarted like a bitch.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 12:42 PM
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126:

no,

it wasn't addressed to you

or rather
directed at you.

it was merely a reference
to what i consider
one of the greatest threads of all time,
the one where we speculated
and tested the theory
that any great poem
can be made even better
by the simple addition of
fuck you, clown.


Posted by: My Alter Ego | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 12:42 PM
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I do think JRoth, LB and others are right that it's hard to have an apples/apples comparison between intelligence and looks.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 12:42 PM
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142,
pwned by 132,
gasps,
with its dying breath
fuck you, clown.


Posted by: My Alter Ego | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 12:44 PM
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Because most people instinctively recognize such a difference?

Do they, though? It's not even clear that most people in this thread do.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 12:45 PM
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Smarted like a bitch.

Sycophant.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 12:45 PM
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I'm really getting some hostile vibes here.


Posted by: clown | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 12:45 PM
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Do they, though? It's not even clear that most people in this thread do.

Apo clearly does, as does ttaM and (I'd bet) ogged. I'm not sure who you see on the other side.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 12:47 PM
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142--
thanks for the explanation.
if i were in the business of writing poems, i'd give it a try.
i'm just trying to format my thoughts in a little box, is all.

135--
so kelly at mit, who caught on to stuff a lot quicker?
okay--keep in mind that what he was *learning* easily was actually *thought up* by somebody.
and that person was in that regard smarter than him.

and the guy who came up with the theorem that kelly learned quickly and you learned slowly--he would probably be the first to tell you that he was nothing compared to erdos. and erdos lived in awe of euler. and euler couldn't fathom the brilliance of archimedes. and so on up the chain.

it's like--i'm maybe one standard deviation out from the mean, and everything to the right of me is lost in a fog; it's hard for me to tell how much smarter smart gets.
but i can see a few people out at the two sd mark, and they tell me that there are some people out at the three sd mark. and i have read reports from people out at the three sd mark that they worship people out at the four sd mark.

and even though it's all foggy out there to me, cause i'm not smart enough to tell even what those differences would be like, i'm inclined to think they can.


Posted by: kid bitzer | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 12:48 PM
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there--
no return key, and 149 sprawls all over like a spilled custard.

take it away; it has no theme.


Posted by: kid bitzer | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 12:50 PM
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>>Because most people instinctively recognize such a difference?
Do they, though? It's not even clear that most people in this thread do.

I'm quite poor at judging the relative intelligence of others, partly because mere social interaction only reveals a couple of types of intelligence (mostly verbal, but also analytical and knowledge-based). So I don't know if someone in a technical - or artistic - field is a fucking genius in that field. All I know is that talking to her is like talking to a goddamn brick wall. But also, you have to interact a lot, or have one really serious conversation, to get a feel for fine gradations in intelligence - is that just surface wit, or is the wit evidence of serious thinking beneath?

Whereas a camera phone and 24 hours at HotOrNot definitively answers the attractiveness questions.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 12:51 PM
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I'm not sure who you see on the other side.

We may not be on the same page here; I see you and ogged on one side, with apo and ttaM on the other.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 12:51 PM
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I'm neither smarter nor better looking than the guy at the gym.

He reminds me of my own combination of laziness and vanity. I like looking good, but I don't have the patience to primp. So I have low standards that are easy for me to meet, and I spend a lot of time checking myself out in the mirror, thinking, "Could be worse!"

Of course, he goes to the gym, so who am I to call him lazy?


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 12:53 PM
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re: 152

See, you're sorting by attractiveness AND smartness, right there!


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 12:54 PM
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141: Thanks for admitting to that LB. I was sore for quite a while after my fall, but years later it's the stupidity that still stings.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 12:56 PM
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I am intelligent but sort of goofy looking.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 12:57 PM
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146: It's not flattery if it's true.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 12:57 PM
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You didn't look particularly goofy in the wedding photos you put on flickr, Cala.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 12:59 PM
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Are smart people better at assessing their own attractiveness?


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 1:00 PM
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Yeah, Cala, you're cute, shut up.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 1:00 PM
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That's depressed people, eb.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 1:00 PM
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158--

ah--now we're getting into the gender asymmetry of self-regard.
i didn't see the photos, but i'm guessing that cala turns out to be
quite nice-looking, and a victim of downward self-assessment bias.

which is more common among women.

meanwhile, the genuinely goofy-looking guy looks in the mirror and think's he's a god.


Posted by: kid bitzer | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 1:01 PM
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158: Lots of makeup.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 1:01 PM
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Shivbunny's dad is a wringer for the long-time boss of my (former) unit, my mentor. Did a double take when I saw him.


Posted by: I don't pay | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 1:02 PM
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the gender asymmetry of self-regard

Which baa noted way back at 36. Surely true.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 1:03 PM
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165--
sorry: getting *back* to.


Posted by: kid bitzer | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 1:04 PM
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I actually am goofy-looking, for reals, though sometimes in a cute way, and a fair amount smarter than the mean, though not nearly as smart as I would like.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 1:04 PM
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164: ringer.

165: Maybe on average, but nothing essential about it.


Posted by: I don't pay | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 1:04 PM
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re: 162

That's definitely true. I look at myself in the mirror and think, 'could really do with losing 30lbs, but otherwise, not bad', my wife, who is (by *any* reasonable standard) better looking than me, looks at herself and thinks 'arrrggggh, I look terrible'.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 1:05 PM
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163: Lots of makeup my cellulite-pocked ass.

I hereby declare an absolute moratorium on the women here playing the "I'm fat," "I'm ugly" cards. Every single woman from Unfogged I've met is perfectly good looking, and ya'll need to just fucking own up to it.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 1:06 PM
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the long-time boss of my (former) unit, my mentor

I'm so sorry to hear that you were bobbitted, Idp. Shoulda listened to Emerson about those mail-order brides.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 1:06 PM
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Except in the manner of 167 and 169. It's acceptable to say "I'm goofy looking but cute" or "I'm fat, but I look damn good."


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 1:07 PM
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Hey, you worry about your ass, I worry about my face.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 1:09 PM
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I worry about B's ass in my face.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 1:11 PM
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174--
pwned by petrucchio.


Posted by: kid bitzer | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 1:12 PM
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Nah, you're a cutey-pie, Cala.


Posted by: Chopper | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 1:12 PM
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Are all three bridesmaids your sisters, Cala?


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 1:13 PM
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The point is I don't worry about my ass. My ass is a fucking fine ass, and cellulite is goddamn normal.

I'm sort of joking, but sort of serious. I sometimes feel like it's completely unacceptable to say "I look good and I'm smarter than average," but dammit, I *do* look good and I'm smarter than average, and ime that holds true for everyone here. It annoys me to end up feeling like I'm being a vain cow around the deformed and hideous, only to find out that y'all aren't deformed and hideous.

Plus it's just healthier, dammit, not to feel so insecure all the damn time.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 1:13 PM
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174: And well you should, my friend. Well you should.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 1:14 PM
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Those are nice wedding pictures, although not enough closeups of you - you look great from a distance, but I wouldn't try to recognize you on the street from them.

Your sisters (much more visible) are gorgeous and look like a ridiculous amount of fun.

(And Shivbunny's dad appears to be Zonker Harris in middle age.)


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 1:14 PM
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B, are you coming to MN any time soon? Then you can decide for yourself whether I'm deformed and hideous. Actually I have a skirt that I stencilled some years ago which reads "I will grow to be a monster".


Posted by: Frowner | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 1:15 PM
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Wait, just how does one see these pictures? Do I have to sign anything in blood?


Posted by: Frowner | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 1:16 PM
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Bobbit's unit was reattached; mine was moved to another city.

It's acceptable to say "I'm goofy looking but cute" or "I'm fat, but I look damn good—because it's hard-won self-respect for women. Many guys, not all, appear to have never questioned their own awesomeness.


Posted by: I don't pay | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 1:17 PM
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One joins Flickr and emails ogged or 'Smasher to be invited to join the photo group.

(Is it wrong that a year after I joined, I've put up exactly two pictures? I suck.)


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 1:17 PM
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All Unfogged commenters are above-average.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 1:18 PM
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180: They're mostly from my camera, and my sisters were alternately giddy and hyper the entire day. Especially the youngest who was the first to head down the aisle and freaked out five minutes beforehand because she didn't know how fast to walk or where to hold the flowers and it just had occurred to her that heading down first meant she wouldn't be able to take cues from the other two. (Yup, all three are my sisters.) So we practiced walking in the church basement. It was very cute.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 1:19 PM
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One joins Flickr and emails ogged or 'Smasher to be invited to join the photo group.

Those are instructions to join the group, but I don't think Cala's pictures (or most of everyone else's) are restricted to group members.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 1:19 PM
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I admit that I don't actually look like this.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 1:19 PM
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Mildly OT, but has anyone ever won a thread so thoroughly as Felix did in the FYC? Total genius.


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 1:22 PM
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re: 188

That's right. The Frappr photos are still live it seems [linked by ogged below your comment].


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 1:22 PM
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181: Yes, I'll be in town next week. We will get together and I will smack you for playing the girl game of "oh, I'm so hideous." And then I'll FORCE YOU TO ORDER DESSERT AND LIKE IT dammit.

185: Well, we skew youngish and middle- to upper-middle class, so we probably *are* above average, on balance. Add to that that we're mostly American, and all from industrialized countries. We surely all have straightish whiteish teeth, clean hair and bodies, access to cosmetics for minor skin flaws and the like, and the ability to pick clothes that fit and are reasonably suitable to our body types and general peer group.

I realize that for women in particular, performing modesty--and comparing oneself constantly to models--is drilled into us from childhood on. And I realize that I'm lucky to have somehow escaped internalizing a lot of the bullshit "I'm not good enough in the looks department." stuff. And that I'm also a bitch. But it *drives me up a wall* that so many women feel like they constantly have to put themselves down when *there's no fucking reason for them to do so.*


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 1:25 PM
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It's ironic that B is so funny looking.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 1:28 PM
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Hey, I like the way I look, and if you don't, Ogged, well then it's a good thing I'm not sleeping with you. So, nyah.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 1:30 PM
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I am either smart OR beautiful, but I don't know which.

Also, 65: I think I dated that woman.


Posted by: Cyrus | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 1:30 PM
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We surely all have straightish whiteish teeth

Some of us are British ...

[getting the joke in first]


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 1:32 PM
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195: Hence the "ish."


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 1:33 PM
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ability to pick clothes that fit and are reasonably suitable

O RLY?


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 1:37 PM
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Hence the "ish."

I figured that was for the smokers, rather than the Brits.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 1:42 PM
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re: 198

Arrgh. Doubly damned.*

* although I've sort of stopped. A couple of packs in the past 8 months.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 1:46 PM
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Surprisingly, the internet doesn't have the photo of Katherine Hepburn skateboarding in the 1970's wearing a sailor hat.


Posted by: joeo | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 1:46 PM
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Surprisingly, the internet doesn't have the photo of Katherine Hepburn skateboarding in the 1970's wearing a sailor hat.

Apparently it's from her book "Me" which you can "search inside," at Amazon, so the internet does have it, but I ain't gonna look for it.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 1:53 PM
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I realize that for women in particular, performing modesty--and comparing oneself constantly to models--is drilled into us from childhood on. And I realize that I'm lucky to have somehow escaped internalizing a lot of the bullshit "I'm not good enough in the looks department"

I'm constantly startled by how pervasive this is, how tenuous the self-confidence.

What do we know about patterns of women's self-criticism, of their senses of their own prettiness, before mass circulation magazines with photo images in the 20th C?


Posted by: I don't pay | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 1:55 PM
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202: IA recommended this book.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 2:00 PM
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What IA was suggesting in that link was exactly my question, and I had the same hunch. Not sure if the second link is a book on the right level, though.


Posted by: I don't pay | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 2:05 PM
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What do we know about patterns of women's self-criticism, of their senses of their own prettiness, before mass circulation magazines with photo images in the 20th C?

It wasn't looks-focused. Women's self-examination in the late 18th/19th centuries seems to have been focused on spirituality, acceptance, humility--all that kind of conduct-manual thing.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 2:15 PM
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I'm not sure what you mean by "on the right level" but since I haven't read the book, I can't add anything either way.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 2:19 PM
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re: 205

Although, interestingly, the responses were quite similar. Eating disorders, self-harm, etc.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 2:22 PM
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so nobody has made the connection between
the asymmetrical self-regard issue and
the asymmetrical negotiating strategies thread
from the other day?

the question is: what penalty do women pay, both in dealing with men and with women, for representing their own attractiveness accurately, to themselves or others?

and what advantages do men gain, both with women and with men, for erring on the side of over-confidence in their self-assessments?

seems to me there are many similarities to the negotiation thread.


Posted by: kid bitzer | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 2:48 PM
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Of course the situation is slightly complicated by the fact that it's not actually over-confidence in self-assessment that's 'punished', it's publicly exhibiting that over-confidence.

The public role people perform and their inner beliefs may be quite different. Smart kids are often familiar with concealing the fact that they are smarter than their peers. They certainly don't admit to other kids that they believe themselves to be much smarter than their peer group. This generally holds true of adults, also.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 3:11 PM
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Women are punished so harshly for thinking they're attractive that it's almost rational to assume you're ugly, depending on how much you fear the punishment. There are a lot of men out there who are highly invested in lowering women's self esteem (presumably to increase the odds that they'll be able to find women who hate themselves enough to sleep with them) and those men are merciless to women who acknowledge their own hotness in any way, and will verbally tear them apart.
Also, that thing where guys fall in love with you incredibly easily: is that a looks thing then? Damn, I thought it was my natural charisma. My self-regard is wounded.


Posted by: Sredni Vashtar | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 5:35 PM
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210: Best pseud ever.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 5:41 PM
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209--
sure, but the public projection can feed back into genuine self-doubt.
plus, on the veldt...and so now it's genetic. (hey presto).

210--
that's the kind of thing i'm talking about.
don't know if it's true or not.
any women want to speak to trying it both ways,
i.e. feeling better about yourself and acting that way
vs. feeling all oh i'm such a slapper don't look at me way?

all mysterious to me. but then i was mystified by
the results of that psych study on negotiating, too.


Posted by: kid bitzer | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 5:42 PM
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211--
care to splain? didn't get.
(tho always happy to laugh along at jokes i didn't get.)


Posted by: kid bitzer | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 5:44 PM
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Women are punished so harshly for thinking they're attractive

This seems insanely false. Part of what almost all guys find attractive is some confidence, a way of carrying oneself, etc.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 5:46 PM
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I dunno, ogged. Confidence is sexy, but it's not uncommon to hear snipey comments if a woman thinks she's more attractive than she is. "Who does she think she is, she doesn't have the legs for that miniskirt?" "Fat girls shouldn't wear bikinis", that sort of thing.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 5:57 PM
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Sure, I'm all for making it a more precise claim, but to say without qualification that women are "punished so harshly" just for "thinking they're attractive" seems plainly false.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 6:01 PM
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Mmmm... if I were to say of my sister "She's gorgeous, and she knows it" I think most people would take that as that she was gorgeous and probably a little manipulative.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 6:06 PM
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I think you're described your sister as a little manipulative, haven't you? Might not your choice of specific words reflect that?


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 6:09 PM
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If I were to say a "guy was handsome and he knows it" that would have the same connotation though. That kind of phrase has a well known meaning that isn't gender related.


Posted by: CJB | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 6:10 PM
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I can't believe it took 106 comments for anyone to claim they are attractive. And then it was ogged, who doesn't mean it.


Posted by: slolernr | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 6:11 PM
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220: Well, you weren't around.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 6:12 PM
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I meant it when I said it.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 6:13 PM
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I think you're described your sister as a little manipulative, haven't you?

I believe the actual phrasing she's used is "batshit insane" or similar.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 6:13 PM
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I would not be certain whether I meant it if I were to say I was attractive.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 6:14 PM
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220: Well, you weren't around.

"urbane and witty" ≠ "egomaniacal"


Posted by: slolernr | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 6:15 PM
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If I were to say eb was attractive I would mean it.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 6:16 PM
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it's funny how a lot of men falsely believe
that they are more urbane and witty than they are.


Posted by: kid bitzer | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 6:16 PM
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Dude, it wasn't me.


Posted by: slolernr | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 6:17 PM
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She is a little manipulative, and it's totally because she's figured out that old men are putty when an 18-year-old smiles at them. But the phrase 'and she knows it' connotes manipulation, like being pretty is something of which she should be innocently ignorant. (You can get this with 'smarter than you and knows it', too.)


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 6:17 PM
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223: Different sister. And I think that might have been 'batshit conservative.' Batshit insane is the cat (and wine-dark was the sea.)


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 6:18 PM
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And furthermore, if I were staring at myself in the mirror while standing next to Cary Grant, I would not be humming, "I feel witty, oh so witty."


Posted by: slolernr | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 6:18 PM
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Whereas I might be thinking, "ew, he's kind of dead now."


Posted by: slolernr | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 6:19 PM
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Different sister.

It's so hard to keep them straight.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 6:19 PM
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did someone speak?
sorry--i was just staring into a blog
and thinking how incredibly awesome
my witty urbanity is.
flex that wit....
tense that urb....


Posted by: kid bitzer | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 6:20 PM
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Probably because I've only seen one movie with him in it, I associate Cary Grant with crop dusters and Mt. Rushmore.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 6:23 PM
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cary grant--
probably the most beautiful embodiment of masculine self-possession ever seen on film.
what all other guys delude themselves about?
he's it.
and a sizable degree of self-regard is part of his persona.

hitchcock i think had the right insight:
with someone this in control of the world,
someone for whom the entire world is an endless oyster,
the best thing to do is to knock him off kilter.


Posted by: kid bitzer | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 6:26 PM
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Huh, I see that I've seen two movies with him in it. I guess I didn't find the other one memorable.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 6:27 PM
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Sure, I'm all for making it a more precise claim, but to say without qualification that women are "punished so harshly" just for "thinking they're attractive" seems plainly false.

Sure, but I can't think what the exact qualifications are. Being "objectively" super-attractive gets you some kind of exemption but how many women are really that? I just watched Big Brother (UK) and a woman on there just got booed to the rafters for being fattish and giving a lapdance-- last year's winner was male and resembled a hobbit and his entire repertoire of dialogue was "Aye, at the end of the day I know ah'm a good-looking canny lad, like. Textbook."-- and he won!
OK, maybe the moral of this story is that watching Big Brother is a bad idea, but I can't help thinking that it also sheds light on the reasons why so many women hate their own bodies--it's just not socially acceptable not to.

211: Thanks!
213: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/People/rgs/sk-vashtar.html


Posted by: Sredni Vashtar | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 6:28 PM
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238.3
thank you.
saki.
cool.


Posted by: kid bitzer | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 6:31 PM
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229:

Fit But you Know It


Posted by: Sredni Vashtar | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 6:31 PM
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Happy people are generally fine, but the ones who clap their hands are manipulative.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 6:34 PM
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hands or no hands, their face will surely show it.


Posted by: kid bitzer | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 6:36 PM
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I certainly would not be considered objectively attractive enough to stand out in a crowd.

But I essentially like the way I look. I've checked myself out on the mirror. There are plenty of areas where I could improve, but why hate on the way you look?

Is that an Ogged thing?


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 6:48 PM
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Yeah, I think you need to lose some weight, Will. I can see that "family belly" from here.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 7:00 PM
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My two kids really put a crimp in my workouts. The little bastards.

My not-so-little OCD girl makes me go on death marches, but still the belly remains.

Was that you checking me checking myself out in the mirror?


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 7:04 PM
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Late to the ball as usual.
1. I wish I was getting drunk in a ruined broch RIGHT NOW!

2. It's interesting that there's been more and clearer parsing of the concept of "attractive" (on this thread and others) than of the concept of "intelligent". Guy I went to HS with, looked like a hobbit, had the sweetest disposition you could imagine, and was a math/geography savant. Offered a merit-based full ride at MIT, but turned it down so he could go to school closer to home. Saw him on the bus 5 years ago -- I was sure they'd have him buried in the deepest bunker in Langley, but no, he said, he was liasing between local govts. and the fed. govt. on transportation issues, and he really loved the personal interaction aspect, couldn't imagine being tied down to a bunch of number crunching. Is he smarter than me? Certainly, when it comes to hard sciences, but I'm more envious of the fact that he's been smart enough to carve out a place for himself that he really enjoys and which benefits him and other people.

3. BPhD -- come on, I'm not a goon, or a woman, but you have to admit after meeting me that there are LOTS of people everywhere I go who are miles better looking than me.

4. Beauty/work etc. One thing that was eye-opening for me was my experience as a hiring manager. A couple of the women I hired were quite attractive by anyone's estimation. One of them was, alas, cursed with stereotypical "dumb blonde" looks -- tall, leggy, chesty, tiny, doll-like facial features, perfect flowy blond hair. Everytime she came in, her whole body language was about "don't look at me, I'm not just my body". I got the impression from talking to her that her life was an endless round of being given special favors because of her looks and resenting herself and others for it.
The other woman was a dark-complexioned dancer who "knew she was gorgeous" and used that to her greatest advantage in every interaction. When she came in for her interview she was wearing a skirt smaller than a bandanna. I hired her only at the urging of male colleagues, and felt pretty stupid about it later, when it became clear that she really did expect the world to fall at her feet everyday because of her looks.


Posted by: minneapolitan | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 7:04 PM
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243: I like the way I look. It just seems that no one else does. I think I look like adonis in geek clothing, but even my mom says, "Oh honey, you would be so handsome if only you " etc... .


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 7:13 PM
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Wait, were Cala wedding photos posted? are they super secret or is there a link? I'll confess to being sappy about wedding photos.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 7:16 PM
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247--

ah--good to identify a method of intergenerational transmission.
men start with a positive self-regard from doting mothers.
women start in arrears from their mothers' projections of their own insecurities.
i think it helped that my mother always winced when she looked at me.


Posted by: kid bitzer | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 7:16 PM
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good for you foolishmortal. people should be happy with how they look.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 7:17 PM
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kid is a guy? I fail at remembering gender.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 7:19 PM
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yeah, me too.


Posted by: kid bitzer | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 7:24 PM
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i had always thought, e.g., that minneapolitan was a woman.


Posted by: kid bitzer | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 7:25 PM
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so many women hate their own bodies--it's just not socially acceptable not to.

True, but it's also generally the case, I think, that women are harder on women who say they're attractive than some men are.

Other men, aka assholes, love nothing better than cutting down haughty bitches to size. Or trying to. Whereas we haughty bitches love watching them fail.

246.3: You're fat, but you're better looking than I think you think you are. Whether or not there are people who are look better than you has no bearing on whether you yourself are attractive.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 7:29 PM
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Whether or not there are people who are look better than you has no bearing on whether you yourself are attractive.

B speaks the truth. People should take this to heart.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 7:31 PM
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You're fat

B is also a big meanie.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 7:31 PM
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256: B. is tired of "fat" being a pejorative, rather than merely a description. Anyway, Minneapolitan knows he's fat. There are plenty of good-looking fat people; "fat" isn't (and damn well shouldn't be) a synonym for "ugly."

The fact that Ogged thinks it is shows that he's the meanie, not me. So there.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 7:34 PM
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Ogged is apparently emaciated. He is showing his own prejudice against people who are not thin by assuming that fat means ugly.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 7:36 PM
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Apparently I speak the ungrammatical truth.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 7:37 PM
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258: No, he's just a tall thin guy.

I'm just all about the love today, people.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 7:37 PM
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I wonder, given that attractiveness is traditionally such an asset for women, that proclaiming it doesn't often come across like bragging about income or something would be for men.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 7:39 PM
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261: Probably. But fuck that shit. Men should also be able to acknowledge (for instance) that they're doing just fine; it's irritating when a guy who you know makes six figures pretends that he's barely scraping by, for instance.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 7:40 PM
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I think the test (for women) is whether a woman who acknowledges or even takes pride in her own looks tends to cut down other women. If you use your looks (or money) as a way of putting down other people who aren't so lucky, then that sucks; but there's something equally sucky, if more subtle, about saying you're poor/unattractive when you're not, you know?


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 7:43 PM
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*Plus* of course (making up for lost commenting time, obvs.), while good looks are an asset for women in a lot of ways, there's something to be said for decoupling the looks/worth thing by acknowledging one's looks simply *as* such, if that makes sense.

Of course, in my case, I'm both attractive and better than everyone else, but that's just pure luck.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 7:45 PM
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Of course, in my case, I'm both attractive and better than everyone else, but that's just pure luck.

i thought you were blonde?



Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 7:47 PM
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Attractive, superior, and blond. Plus I know the difference between "blond" (adjective) and "blonde" (noun, f.)

Really, you should know better, will.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 7:48 PM
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I type and hit post. I rarely edit to correct. I make mistakes all the time in first drafts. That is what editing is for. [softball]


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 7:52 PM
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pure luck... Hardly.


Posted by: froz gobo | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 8:01 PM
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hitchcock i think had the right insight:
with someone this in control of the world,

Except I think Grant himself had it first -- he took advantage of his good looks, and everyone's inevitable envy, to learn expert pratfalls.

eb, you should try His Girl Friday, The Philadelphia Story (which of course benefits from both Katharine Hepburn and Jimmy Stewart), or (maybe unconventional choice) The Awful Truth.


Posted by: slolernr | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 8:09 PM
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I like Minneapolitan's remarks up at 146. Just saying.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 8:17 PM
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269: And To Catch a Thief and The Bachelor and the Bobbysoxer. But especially His Girl Friday.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 8:18 PM
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Speaking of Katharine Hepburn, has anybody here heard Katharine Hepburn's Voice? They put on a really good show last night.


Posted by: Michael Vanderwheel, B.A. | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 8:18 PM
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In my mind, To Catch a Thief is the ur-James Bond. I've never seen The Bachelor and the Bobbysoxer. Bringing up Baby (more Hepburn) is also good.


Posted by: slolernr | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 8:20 PM
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Holiday is a great Cary Grant movie.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 8:21 PM
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I'm unlikely to watch To Catch a Thief, having attempted it before. I don't actually like the movies I've seen Grant in, and didn't particularly care for the character he played, but The Philadelphia Story is on my "to watch" list. I'll look up the other two.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 8:21 PM
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character s/b characters


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 8:22 PM
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I like The Philadelphia Story.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 8:23 PM
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Everyone should watch Holiday. It's one of my very favorite romantic comedies of that era.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 8:23 PM
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Freaktastic Cary Grant shower scene in Charade. Must-see!


Posted by: Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 8:23 PM
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All my recommendations were comedies, so very different from TCaT and NbNW.


Posted by: slolernr | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 8:24 PM
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Never saw Charade or Holiday. Guy made a lot of movies, evidently.


Posted by: slolernr | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 8:24 PM
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Freaktastic Cary Grant shower scene in Charade


Posted by: Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 8:24 PM
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I've never seen The Bachelor and the Bobbysoxer.

Dude. Myrna Loy. I think that's the movie in which he does the "I know a man with the Power..." bit, which I thought I saw you reference once.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 8:25 PM
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Freaktastic Cary Grant shower scene in Charade

There's a deeper joke there somewhere, but I don't get it.


Posted by: slolernr | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 8:26 PM
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Shoot. The clip ends just when it starts getting good.


Posted by: Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 8:26 PM
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Doo, de-doo doo.


Posted by: Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 8:27 PM
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I know a man with the Power

I know that bit, but had no idea it was from there. Possibly it's also from somewhere else?


Posted by: slolernr | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 8:27 PM
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Shoot. The clip ends just when it starts getting good.

What was the punchline?


Posted by: slolernr | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 8:28 PM
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Cary Grant is great in Arsenic and Old Lace. I love that movie.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 8:28 PM
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289: You just like poisoning people. And cats.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 8:29 PM
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I also have a particular fondness for batty old women.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 8:31 PM
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250: No, not good for me. If you've been raised in a hippie parent/punk peer environment, you think you look awesome and fuck those who think otherwise, etc., which works pretty good right through high school, but after that, the schtick wears off pretty damn quick. Hard to lose it though.


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 8:31 PM
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I can't explain it, and suppose I shouldn't even mention it so no one will agree, but I find Grant irritating even in that short Charade clip.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 8:32 PM
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so s/b since

I should start using preview again.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 8:33 PM
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Arsenic and Old Lace indeed also excellent.

Dude. Myrna Loy

You know what else, dude? Veronica Lake, Katharine Hepburn, Lauren Bacall. Rita Hayworth. Different class of women in movies in those days.


Posted by: slolernr | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 8:34 PM
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I find Grant irritating

You know what else you wouldn't like? The cartoons in The New Yorker.


Posted by: slolernr | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 8:35 PM
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I can't imagine not liking To Catch a Thief. Or, I can--it's not really a good movie; it's hardly a movie at all--but only if you're some sort of monster who can't appreciate a postcard from somewhere elegant and beautiful.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 8:35 PM
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somewhere elegant and beautiful

AKA Grace Kelly.


Posted by: slolernr | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 8:36 PM
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Years of Hidden Valley Ranch commercials killed whatever boner I might have had for Lauren Bacall.


Posted by: Michael Vanderwheel, B.A. | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 8:36 PM
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somewhere elegant and beautiful.

But I thought the movie was set in southeastern France.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 8:36 PM
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I should start using preview again.

Nah. Like, my 270 should have said "246" rather than "146" but who cares?


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 8:37 PM
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Maybe that was too harsh; all indications - that is, pictures I've seen - are that outside of the resort areas that part of France is beautiful.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 8:38 PM
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but who cares?

The site cares; let's maintain some quality, people.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 8:42 PM
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I think I look all right now, but my Freshman year of highschool I was pretty scrawny (85 lbs 5'). I gained 10 pounds that summer and was 95 pounds for two years and looked quite a bit better. I didn't get any kind of chest until Senior year when I weighed 105. It grew bigger (a bit too big) in college.

The New Yorkers always seemed so sophisticated, and there were a couple who looked like models. I don't think I looked very good for most of highschool, because I didn't know how to dress and felt gawky and uncomfortable.


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 8:42 PM
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298: Love, love, love Kelly. She is astonishingly beautiful, especially in that movie. (She's also in a remake of Philly Story w/, IIRC, Sinatra (and someone else. obv.).) But in Thief, I prefer the French woman; I could watch the scene out on the floating platform all day. So bitchy, so delightful.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 8:43 PM
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I even like one of Grant's weaker, light movies. It may have been his last. He's not the romantic lead but the matchmaker in Walk, don't Run.


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 8:47 PM
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The cartoons in The New Yorker

My sister tells me that some of the illustrations - not the stand alone cartoons - tell a continuous story in each issue.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 8:47 PM
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Preview would have shown me where my italics tags went wrong.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 8:48 PM
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Your sister is right.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 8:54 PM
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303:

The site cares; let's maintain some quality, people.

Sorry. I'm abashed.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 8:55 PM
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The site is unforgiving and bans you.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 8:59 PM
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Thus, Cary Grant is established as the Official Actor of Unfogged.

Oh, Unfogged! or ogged, or LB, or Bitch, or Becks or whatever your name is! We'll have lots of children, and name them all after you!


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 9:32 PM
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kid bitzer wrote in 149:

and the guy who came up with the theorem that kelly learned quickly and you learned slowly--he would probably be the first to tell you that he was nothing compared to erdos. and erdos lived in awe of euler. and euler couldn't fathom the brilliance of archimedes. and so on up the chain.

Here's an interesting discussion topic, which might make its own thread. If you could be as smart as anyone--either living or dead--who would that person be? What do you appreciate about his/her type of intelligence?

I think I'd like to be as smart as Frank Ramsey, because he was so very good at so many things. His contributions to economics were seminal, and tehy were basically his weekend activities. He was good at classics, interested in politics and philosophy generally, but he was essentially a math specialist who made important contributions to logic. Economists love him now, but most of them would never have made the effort to translate Wittgenstein. Who knows what Ramsey would have accomplished if he'd lived past 26.


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 9:34 PM
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If it's not obvious from the poor writing, 313 was I.


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 9:36 PM
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I don't get the Grace Kelly boner at all. She's very pretty, yes, but she's so cool she seems like she's made of cardboard. Why guys go gaga over her when there are other very pretty women with actual personalities, I do not understand.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 9:38 PM
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315: Well, she was a princess, after all.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 9:41 PM
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313: Spinoza, maybe? Newton and Plato/Socrates are right out, because their intelligence is not particularly separable from my perspective.


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 9:47 PM
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313: eh, I can't get behind "smart" as a relevant characteristic. I would like to be 50% Niels Bohr and 50% Buckaroo Banzai, sure, but to say that you want one piece of somebody's intellect and not the other pieces implies that you know the categories into which intellect can be subdivided, which makes me hesitant.

In other news, being on vacation at the beach makes keeping up with unfogged threads damnably hard. Why must you test me so, Buzzard's Bay?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 9:49 PM
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I think I'd like to be as smart as Frank Ramsey, because he was so very good at so many things. ... Who knows what Ramsey would have accomplished if he'd lived past 26.

Indeed. An excellent choice. Also because of his character, as this suggests.



Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 9:49 PM
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Only an idiot would want to be smarter.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 9:50 PM
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Really, the only way to keep up with Unfogged is to work a 9–5 white-collar job, never go anywhere and have no friends. Anything else just gets in the way.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 9:51 PM
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I am happy with my current smartness, but I wish I had more mental discipline.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 9:52 PM
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315: You say "personality" like it was necessarily a good thing.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 9:52 PM
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Personality is a gateway drug to relationships.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 9:54 PM
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323: Don't worry, John, I don't judge you for owning a Real Doll.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 9:54 PM
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I am happy with my disciples, but wish I had more mental smartening.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 9:56 PM
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I'm mental, but have smart disciples. In five hundred years I will be worshipped as a God.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 9:59 PM
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I need to get me some disciples.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 10:06 PM
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You know, it's not all it's cracked up to be. Although I imagine you'd attract a better class of disciples than I have.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 10:07 PM
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Don't disciples just get you wrong and hog power in your name after you're dead?

Intelligence, disciples.... What's wrong with you people? You should be wishing to win the lottery and lose your ambition.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 10:19 PM
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330: You should be wishing to win the lottery and lose your ambition.

One out of two ain't bad.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 10:20 PM
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I'm pretty sure that a kajillion dollar windfall would not make me lose my ambition. But I'd be willing to try it and find out.


Posted by: slolernr | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 10:31 PM
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Winning the lottery is my ambition. But I've been too lazy to actually go buy lottery tickets, so I'm not making much progress.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 10:33 PM
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What ambition?


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 10:35 PM
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Ambition, neurosis, fear; ymmv.


Posted by: slolernr | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 10:37 PM
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There was a man who was so disturbed by the size of his own ambition and so displeased with his own disciples that he determined to get rid of both. The method he hit upon was to run away from them. So he got up and ran. But every time he put his foot down he wanted to put his ambition even farther behind, while his disciples kept up with him without slightest difficulty. He attributed his failure to the fact that he was not running fast enough. So he ran faster & faster, without stopping until he dropped dead. He failed to realize that if he merely lurked on unfogged, his ambition would vanish and if he sat down and started commenting, there would be no more disciples.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 10:42 PM
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I, on the other hand, have been working tirelessly towards the moment when I find a winning lottery ticket discarded on the sidewalk.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 10:43 PM
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That & sign really gives away the cut and paste portion of the post.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 10:46 PM
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Only an idiot would want to be smarter.

Than they are, I take it.

I would wish to be as smart as Wittgenstein, or Cavell. I have a craving in that direction.

But now I have a cat who's just smashed a dish onto the kitchen floor. Thanks.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 11:06 PM
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Feynman, maybe. I wouldn't want to give up my ability to get laser-focused on random trivial-to-most concepts, though, even in exchange for being able to do more with my smarts.


Posted by: Hamilton Lovecraft | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 11:06 PM
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'Awesome' has, I think, only appeared ONCE in this discussion, and, for ONCE, it was used appropriately! Thanks Ogged!


Posted by: Herr Torquewrench | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 11:22 PM
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339: I would wish to be as smart as Wittgenstein... now I have a cat who's just smashed a dish onto the kitchen floor

Schrödinger would have been a better choice.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 11:23 PM
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341: thrice, coach, excluding yours.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 11:24 PM
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I want to be as smart as Warren Buffett. I could hire lots of people to be smart in all the other ways for me.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 11:29 PM
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Schrödinger would have been a better choice.

Good try, Sifu.

Are you not going to BRC this year?


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 11:38 PM
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There is no try.

Re: me 'n BRC: it is up in the air. Rest assured, I will keep unfogged informed.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 11:40 PM
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Rest assured, I will keep unfogged informed

ha. (Really, I just didn't expect you to be around much these weeks.)


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 11:43 PM
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BRC?
And what should be the proper use of awesome be anyway? I reserve "awful" for puns that are both, but I can't think of an "awesome" equivalent.


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 11:47 PM
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348: I think Herr is making the Izzardian distinction between calling, say, the universe "awesome" (in the sense of inspiring awe) vs. saying something such as, "Man, this hot dog is awesome!!!1!!!1!"

No idea about BRC.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 08- 3-07 11:57 PM
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Yeah, I've been looking at the news stories, expecting to read about a broken pelvis and some cracked ribs, but nothing yet...

Injuries:

Brown spent Thursday night in a local hospital, where he was treated for a bleeding liver, two sprained wrists, a bruised lung, and whiplash to his back and neck.

Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 08- 4-07 12:11 AM
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I can't post a comment without a mistake today.

correct link


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 08- 4-07 12:12 AM
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Of course he is, and of course he is correct. But my question is this: is there such a thing that is both awesome and awesome?


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 08- 4-07 12:21 AM
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352 to 349


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 08- 4-07 12:22 AM
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Frank Ramsey is a damn fine choice. Plus he had the best middle name, evar.

re: Cary Grant -- his status as icon of suave urbanity is near universal, it seems. The Wu Ming/Luther Blisset* guys' novel 54 is pretty much a paean to Grant's cool.

* if you read one Italian anarchist authorial collective, read that one!**

** I love the whole Luther Blissett concept, tbh.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08- 4-07 12:25 AM
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And I mean both, of course, in my designations of puns. Tweety's the other day, involving Argentinian ants, was one. I think Frowner made the list a while ago, with St. Bunnyface. In both cases, the puns were abominations made text; in both cases I was struck dumb with adoration. Well, maybe not dumb, and certainly not adoration, but close enough.


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 08- 4-07 12:34 AM
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And, again, 355 to 349. (There's something vaguely disconcerting seeing my handle displayed so frequently next to the text "Self-Regard")


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 08- 4-07 12:40 AM
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I'm happy with my Vice Lords, but I wish they had more political discipline.

Also, B, you forgot balding. And bespectacled.

Parsimon, why does everyone get to have a cat except me? I just woke from a dream that cats were biting my pinkie fingers though, so maybe that was prophetic.


Posted by: minneapolitan | Link to this comment | 08- 4-07 7:13 AM
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Speaking of falling about five stories, from Minneapolis it seems that being in a car helps. Several bridge sections fell straight down and landed almost flat with the cars rightside up, and apparently the tires, shocks, springs, and seats absorbed a lot of the fall.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 08- 4-07 7:24 AM
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Huh. Also, I bet the sections weren't really 'falling' -- they were crushing the supports under them as they fell, that probably slowed them down.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08- 4-07 8:18 AM
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I'm not sure if smartness gets at what I tend to most admire in intellectual figures, all of whom, obviously, must be smart if they are to be such. I tend to appreciate more a wide frame of reference, what I take to be good judgment, and for lack of a better phrase, a largeness of spirit. I suppose this has something to do with the fact that I'm mostly engaged by history of various kinds. Gibbon comes to mind, but I sometimes wonder if I don't prefer the Gibbon of Arnaldo Momigliano and Peter Brown to the actual one (not that I don't love me some Decline and Fall.)

Anyway, I don't know that I wish to be as smart as him, and I'm sure there are other people who were smarter, but these days the person who's caught my attention is the late John Michael Montias. Bored after a distinguished career as an economist when his subject area (the economy of the Soviet Union) began to fade, he turned around and changed the direction of art history to pass the time. It really burns some people up.


Posted by: JL | Link to this comment | 08- 4-07 9:15 AM
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Parsimon, why does everyone get to have a cat except me? I just woke from a dream that cats were biting my pinkie fingers though, so maybe that was prophetic.

"Get" to have a cat? Unless you're allergic or living in an apartment that doesn't allow pets, it's not very hard to get a cat.

Most don't bite pinkie fingers; mine do paw my nose and lips in the morning to wake me up. I believe they consider the locus of my being to be my mouth.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 08- 4-07 10:50 AM
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Bespectacled is unattractive? Puhleeze. And you men are way too hung up on your hairlines: no one cares.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 08- 4-07 10:57 AM
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Hair on the head, generally a nice thing, is scarcer among older men, therefore desirable. It's Econ 101, B.


Posted by: slolernr | Link to this comment | 08- 4-07 11:05 AM
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361: It's both, actually, but when I am allowed to have a pet at some point in the future, it's gonna be a cat, and I'm going to clean more and take pseudo-Clar/tin regularly.


Posted by: minneapolitan | Link to this comment | 08- 4-07 12:04 PM
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Bah, slol. Receeding hairlines are something men fret about because they think it shows age, much the same way women fret about little wrinkles around the eyes. Neither impedes attractiveness one whit, and in fact both can make someone *more* attractive by giving a kind of character to the face. Anyway, think of all the hotties who shave their heads.

The only bad way to go bald is if you develop the bald top while retaining hair in a band from ear to ear and in a little spot at the top of the head. If that happens, just shave it off and be done with it already.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 08- 4-07 12:19 PM
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Oh, I do feel sorry for light-haired guys who go the 'evenly thinning all over' route. Receding is fine, honestly bald is fine, but being able to see scalp through a fine cloud of hair is not a good look. B. is right -- if that's what's happening to you, shave your head. (Crewcut, whatever.)


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08- 4-07 12:25 PM
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365: You mean like this?


Posted by: OneFatEnglishman | Link to this comment | 08- 4-07 12:26 PM
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They say that bald men have more testosterone and are more virile.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 08- 4-07 12:29 PM
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Actually 367 would be fine without the combover. I'd shave the little tuft up front, though.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 08- 4-07 12:29 PM
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apo, Keynes was a pretty good investor too, though. Plus then you get to be intellectually important, and, you know, create macroeconomics.


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 08- 4-07 6:47 PM
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357,361,364: Everyone else has had more pets than you? - I do sometimes get that feeling.


Posted by: Tom Scudder | Link to this comment | 08- 4-07 9:45 PM
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369. I linked 367 because B was going on the other day about how hot soccer players are. When that was taken he was one of the top dozen midfielders in the world. In his old age he apologised for the comb over.


Posted by: OneFatEnglishman | Link to this comment | 08- 5-07 2:21 AM
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re: 372

Yeah, one of the greatest players, ever, on lots of people's counts.

I have to admit, I've stopped worrying about the fact I am balding/receding, but for a long time, it really pissed me off. It's a fairly natural thing for men to worry about. I ahve the wrinkles at the corners of the eyes too. I'd like to stay looking 30 forever but it seems it's not going to happen.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08- 5-07 5:11 AM
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I know the feeling. I still look fine, but I don't look 25.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08- 5-07 6:51 AM
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371: Sadly, there are lots of people who've had less sex AND less pets than me, may God have mercy on their souls.


Posted by: minneapolitan | Link to this comment | 08- 5-07 7:16 AM
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371: I love that one bunny's number is 3.5


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 08- 5-07 7:30 AM
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I love the keyboard player with the zero and the bag over his head.


Posted by: Tom Scudder | Link to this comment | 08- 5-07 11:13 AM
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