Re: No Fucking Way

1

Who?


Posted by: Becks | Link to this comment | 08- 4-07 5:31 PM
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But Lance is clean?


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 08- 4-07 5:40 PM
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Whenever someone does does something unprecedented like this, you have to think performance enhancing drugs.

Lance cheats... like a champion.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 08- 4-07 5:47 PM
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Cancer gives people superhuman capabilities; I understand that now.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 4-07 5:47 PM
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Lance: one testicle. Dara: one functioning uterus.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 08- 4-07 5:52 PM
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I was actually serious when I proposed drug-open competitions. Let's see what the human maximum performances are. If they die -- everyone dies sometime. Look at Lyle Alzado.

Can't rule out that Dara was using the pregnancy hormones to her advantage.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 08- 4-07 5:54 PM
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Seriously though, Torres is forty, and I just watched her on the streaming broadcast of the Nationals, and she's more built than about two-thirds of the men. She hasn't swum competitively in years, and just broke her own record from seven years ago. And, she trains less than almost all the other swimmers:

Torres swims only five days each week, and she rarely stays in the water for more than a few hours.

There's just no way. She's volunteering to take extra drug tests, but she hasn't been competing, and if she doped to get big and stopped a while back, tests now wouldn't detect that. I kind of hate myself for saying this, because I think people can do amazing things without doping, but not this amazing thing.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 4-07 5:55 PM
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I kind of hate myself for saying this, because I think people can do amazing things without doping, but not this amazing thing.

It seems, somehow, unfair to believe in unicorns but not in leprechauns.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 08- 4-07 5:57 PM
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Good for her.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 08- 4-07 5:58 PM
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I forgot how much she would beat Ogged by.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 08- 4-07 5:59 PM
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"forgot to ask"


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 08- 4-07 5:59 PM
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Sounds like the same story (iron will, new training, expert coaches, etc) that Michelle De Bruin was peddling ten years ago. And she was only 27 then -- she's still younger today than Torres is.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 08- 4-07 6:01 PM
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12: Ah, but Torres had the benefit of floridated water.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 08- 4-07 6:04 PM
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Right. As if no other swimmer in the world has figured out efficient training methods, and these methods are so incredible that they let a forty-year-old train relatively lightly and beat people 10-15 years younger.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 4-07 6:05 PM
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I guess the closest legitimate achievement along these lines is Steve Redgrave.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 08- 4-07 6:06 PM
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I guess the closest legitimate achievement along these lines is Steve Redgrave.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 08- 4-07 6:06 PM
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I guess I should stop saying "I guess", too.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 08- 4-07 6:06 PM
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Is this right at the credibility line for you, ogged, or at the outer edge? (I guess I'm asking whether you really think Armstrong was clean.)


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 08- 4-07 6:08 PM
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Fucking Irish. Always making an American look bad. Please ignore my "I guess" as well.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 08- 4-07 6:10 PM
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Ogged would be a champion by now if he weren't clean.

His kidneys couldn't take the beating he was giving them. Aldahydes and esters and other degradation products rammed their way through the fine capillaries of his kidneys until they finally screamed "enough"! Real swimmers learn to ignore their renal capillaries.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 08- 4-07 6:11 PM
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"They" = "the fine capillaries of his kidneys", not "aldahydes and esters and other degradation products". Degradation products do not scream.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 08- 4-07 6:12 PM
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Frank Ramsey was doped to the gills. That's why he passed on so early in life.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 08- 4-07 6:13 PM
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I guess I'm asking whether you really think Armstrong was clean.

I refuse to answer this question directly, but I'm giving you a meaningful look.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 4-07 6:16 PM
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Note that Torres's supposed "see through top" here isn't really see-through. Cheater.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 08- 4-07 6:20 PM
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Hasn't swimming mostly been free of doping? And how dumb would you have to be at age forty to dope and come back and expect not to get caught?


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 08- 4-07 6:23 PM
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It hasn't. Almost the entire Chinese women's team was doping in the mid 90's, as was Irishwoman Michelle Smith-DeBruin. There hasn't been much suspicion of doping otherwise, however. And Torres likely won't be caught, because she could have stopped doping well before she started competing again.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 4-07 6:29 PM
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Oh, I lied, Inge DeBruin is also widely suspected of doping; also never tested positive.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 4-07 6:29 PM
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Oh, and Amy Van Dyken was suspected too, I think, also never tested positive, far as I know.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 4-07 6:35 PM
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Maybe if women weren't such cheaters, there would less sexism in the world today.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 4-07 6:36 PM
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I heard once about a powerlifting circuit that allowed doping, but I can't find any reference to it googling around.

Right now, any sport that allowed doping would wind up with a death rate close to the Roman gladiatorial circus. And, like the Roman circus, would still have people lining up to compete. (I saw a special on TLC where they said the average lifespan of a gladiator was 5 matches, but the still had people selling themselves into slavery to be gladiators. This is my second inadequately sourced factoid.)

Forcing doping underground is improving the quality of the drugs. As a bioethicist in favor of all forms of human enhancement, I support the ban on doping as a way to spur technology development.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 08- 4-07 6:43 PM
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28: Seriously? Damn. I had a huge crush on her during the Olympics. It felt like a natural crush, but who can tell these days? (I did, in fact, crush on her because of her shoulders.)


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 08- 4-07 6:44 PM
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"They still had people..."

Note also I have no idea what period of Roman history I am talking about.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 08- 4-07 6:44 PM
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Right now, any sport that allowed doping would wind up with a death rate close to the Roman gladiatorial circus.

There are other advantages, too.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 08- 4-07 6:45 PM
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Sorrows of Ancient Rome


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 08- 4-07 6:47 PM
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Seriously? Damn.

Yeah, she was called to testify in some part of the Balco case, is buddies with Romanowski, etc. She's also married to some NFL player.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 4-07 6:48 PM
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, is buddies with Romanowski

There's a crush-killer. Such great freckles, though.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 08- 4-07 6:50 PM
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Maybe if women weren't such cheaters, there would less sexism in the world today.

ogged must be freezing, trying to kindle an argument like that. I dunno. If Torres is doping, she's certainly laying it all out there having her blood saved for when they discover how to test for growth hormone. Or at least she knows how to work the press.

Didn't the guy that broke the four-minute mile train for something like an hour, max, a day while being a doctor? Some people are freaks.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 08- 4-07 6:54 PM
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while being a doctor?

Seriously? You're not seeing the obvious answer?


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 08- 4-07 6:56 PM
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Steroids aren't magic.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 08- 4-07 7:02 PM
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Poor, naive Cala. Next you'll be claiming that unicorns don't exist.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 08- 4-07 7:03 PM
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Didn't the guy that broke the four-minute mile train for something like an hour, max, a day while being a doctor? Some people are freaks.

That was mostly a technique thing. The standard approach to middle distance running back then was to cruise for the first 3 laps, then kick into high gear on the last lap. Roger Bannister figured out that it's more efficient to have as close to a uniform time as possible on all 4 laps.


Posted by: Matt F | Link to this comment | 08- 4-07 7:09 PM
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Bannister ran quite a while ago and his times were passed relatively quickly by people who did more serious and intense training. Still, sub-4 on that kind of track on his kind of training is pretty impressive.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 08- 4-07 7:09 PM
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Also: drugs.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 08- 4-07 7:10 PM
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In track, Florence Griffith-Joyner had a similar pattern though at a much younger age. She was a very, very good runner, took some time off (I think about a year) and came back basically untouchable, and with an incredibly chiseled body. She still holds the 100M & 200M world records (from '88) and in both events the gap between her and #2 is greater than the gap between #2 and #10. (Michael Johnson has the same dominance in the 200.)

I remember seeing a reporter say to Evelyn Ashford at the Olympics in reference to FloJo, "She's something else isn't she.", Ashford smiled, rolled her eyes and said: "She sure is."

We report, you decide.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 08- 4-07 7:25 PM
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Bannister vs. Landy: first mile race with 2 sub 4 runners.

Daniel Komen runs sub-4 pace for nearly 2 miles.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 08- 4-07 7:25 PM
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Those are great, eb. So great to hear Bannister addressed as "doctor," and Landy was very gracious.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 4-07 7:43 PM
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Torres, eh?

Ogged's a racist.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 08- 4-07 9:07 PM
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Baseball's barely a sport, and I hate it, but I'm coming to like Barry Bonds, if only because various media personalities are such little bitches.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 08- 4-07 9:32 PM
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Yes, well, we all know why Barry Bonds isn't a little bitch anymore, don't we?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 08- 4-07 9:34 PM
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She's also married to some NFL player.

NFL sure, but he's a punter. That's like half a football player, really.


Posted by: arthegall | Link to this comment | 08- 4-07 9:37 PM
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His reluctance to tie Mr. Aaron is hinting at a conscience. I'm sure he'll beat the hell out of it sooner rather than later, but for his father's sake I'm relishing the moment.


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 08- 4-07 9:39 PM
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He just tied it. End relishing now.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 08- 4-07 9:43 PM
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I'm trying to figure out what expression this is.


Posted by: feldspar | Link to this comment | 08- 4-07 10:24 PM
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Clearly a "nyah."


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 4-07 10:25 PM
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As you get older, you do not need to train as much. Besides, she is swimming the freaking 50 and the 100. Sprinters do not actually train anyway.

You also missed the part about her out of the water workouts. Swimming is only partially about the generation of power.

Plus, I would not talk trash to her face.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 08- 5-07 10:00 AM
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Look up Dennis Baker, Laura Val, Graham Johnston for a partial list of how fast you can swim as you age.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 08- 5-07 10:03 AM
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Of course it's possible to swim fast when you're old, as I've noted here before. The question is whether it's possible to swim faster than the very best young swimmers, and for everyone except Dara Torres, the answer is "no."


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 5-07 10:11 AM
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What is old is constantly being redefined. The difficultly in aging is recovering from injury. Look at Roger Clemons. Look at that Eithopia considered the greatest distance runner of all time.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 08- 5-07 10:15 AM
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. Look at Roger Clemons.

Probably not the best example.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 08- 5-07 10:18 AM
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You keep telling yourself that, oldster. Basketball players don't "lose a step" because of injury, but because older bodies are less explosive than younger bodies.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 5-07 10:18 AM
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I think that sports medicine and better training methods have changed the meaning of aging. Gordy Howe was a NHL starter at age 51. My guess is that without top medical care he wouldn't be able to do that. Kareem was competitive at 42, and Nolan Ryan at 46.

Yay Torres!


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 08- 5-07 10:24 AM
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Define older bodies and define younger bodies.

Then, go back and read how they were defined 20 years ago.

Swimming is more about effeciency than it is power. An old body can become more effecient than a younger body.

An example: I am older, shorter, and fatter than you. I don't train. You do. But, I would still kick your butt up and down the pool in any race because I know how to swim better than you. I am not more powerful than you. Just more effecient.

Now, when you combined that with someone who is still in darn good physical condition, you start to understand how an old body might beat a younger body.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 08- 5-07 10:24 AM
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I see the old folks are invested in this one. First, John, those examples aren't apposite because none of them relied on pure explosiveness the way Torres does, swimming sprints. And Will, of course technique matters a lot, but Torres was already a world class swimmer seven years ago and she's beating her own old times, and that's after many years spent not swimming; she wasn't holed up somewhere perfecting her craft.

in any race

This is going to be you defining "any" to exclude breaststroke, isn't it?


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 5-07 10:29 AM
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I'm pro-Wiki, but this part is very odd:

As a young boy, [Nolan Ryan] enjoyed throwing objects at any target. His father thought that baseball was a better usage for his arm, therefore he encouraged Nolan to play the game.
The youngest of six children, Nolan was given many possessions. The Ryans didn't have extra money for spending but his father picked up what he needed--a new Nocona glove. That glove became major possession for Nolan, as he treasured and kept it for most of his childhood.
Ryan joined Little League Baseball when he was nine. Within years, he pitched the first no-hitter of his life. Ryan played many positions to achieve all-star status. He was always proud of his team and uniform.

Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 08- 5-07 10:32 AM
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Ryan was a fastball pitcher.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 08- 5-07 10:32 AM
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Yeah, sorry, I missed the Nolan Ryan part. It's a good example. But I'd be curious about how hard Ryan was throwing at forty compared to how hard he was throwing at 25.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 5-07 10:34 AM
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Are you suggesting that Torres couldnt have learned how to swim better? Or that swimming techniques and training techniques havent improved in the last 7 years?

Most world class swimmers that I know believe that they could have swam faster than their best times. There is a tremendous amount of unrealized potential. Torres could have very well swam much faster 7 years ago if different factors had come together. A different coach. A different taper. A different stretching method. A different eating method.

breaststroke is included in "any race."


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 08- 5-07 10:36 AM
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Sure, she could have swum faster if she'd trained differently then, which is different from saying that it's understandable that she can swim faster now, when she's forty.

Dude, we so need to race. When are you coming to California?


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 5-07 10:39 AM
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Remember, I'm pro-doping. I also think that there should be a breeding program specialized for specific events. I think that athletes should be allowed to amputate useless body parts, and substitute titanium structures for the antiquated, inefficient organic body parts. Women should be allowed to have bioengineered testicles implanted.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 08- 5-07 10:42 AM
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It isn't predictable that she is going to swim faster now. But it is also not unbelievable.

I haven't been to California since I saw the Dead at Ventura County Fairgrounds in 1988 (or was it 87?).

I'll meet you in Oregon when Jesus McQueen gives his Unfogged wine tour.

meet s/b beat


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 08- 5-07 10:42 AM
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She has asked US head coach Mark Schubert to organise extra drug testing, including blood testing, so she can answer the doubters.

In reading a little bit about this topic, I found this gem of a quote. I actually laughed out loud. Schubert is hardly an objective Torres person.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 08- 5-07 2:51 PM
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What do you mean?

(Although, to note again, she could have stopped doping a while back before she started competing and have nothing to fear at this point.)


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 5-07 2:52 PM
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(Although, to note again, she could have stopped doping a while back before she started competing and have nothing to fear at this point.)

How sure are you of this? I thought you needed to continue to use the drugs to keep the effects of the drugs.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 08- 5-07 3:02 PM
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At this link is a lengthy 3-part discussion on this subject. The conclusion - certainly drug-aided. One of the data points was Mark Spitz who tried a comeback for 1992 concentrating only on the 100M butterfly, got to 58 sec - his best was 54.27. Spitz did acknowledge that there was much better dry land training than when he swam, but it could not overcome the age factor.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 08- 5-07 3:03 PM
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Yeah, I've read that, but it was so poorly written that I didn't link to it.

How sure are you of this?

Pretty sure. You have to keep doing the drugs if they're endurance-aiding, but you can do drugs to build strength and keep the gains for quite a while after you stop. The best Chinese female swimmers would disappear from international competition for months before a big meet (so they weren't tested) and then show up and swim unbelievable times.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 5-07 3:07 PM
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Schubert used to coach her. They were close.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 08- 5-07 3:14 PM
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Ohhhhhh.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 5-07 3:15 PM
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Nevermind that cheater, Dara Torres. Let's talk about me. You know what's wrong with my breaststroke, Will? I forget to breathe. I come out of the water, open my mouth, but don't inhale, and go back down. I get basically one breath in 50 yards, and that's at the turn, when I'm specifically thinking "breathe!" I'm pretty sure this has something to do with the fact that I absolutely can't swim more than fifty breast. Any tips, other than "breathe more often'?


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 5-07 3:18 PM
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I have mixed feelings about it. It wouldnt shock me either way.

There have been countless swimmers who were not amazingly strong. Athletic potential is shockingly undertapped.

On the other hand, I wouldn't say it was surprising if someone choses to cheat.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 08- 5-07 3:21 PM
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You are too nervous. You don't feel that you belong in a pool. Deep seated inferiority complexes are hard to overcome.

Relax. Zen and the art of swimming. Fast hands. Fast feat. Stretch your glide. Breaststroke is an explosive stroke.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 08- 5-07 3:23 PM
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You little bitch.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 5-07 3:24 PM
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Yeah, I've read that, but it was so poorly written that I didn't link to it.

It was a bit hard to follow. It does have a good set of links though.

On your breathing problems - I would start with concentrating on making sure you exhale into the water - in my experience that is easier to force yourself to do than inhale, but then leads "naturally" to the latter.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 08- 5-07 3:25 PM
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I've got the exhaling down, I think. I can hear it, so it's part of my stroke--lunge, whirrrrr, pull....


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 5-07 3:27 PM
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Have you tried snapping your hips?


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 08- 5-07 3:32 PM
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I tried snapping my fingers. It didn't help much.

Unfogged Swim Meet! Events should be exclusively non-swimming. 50m explication.


Posted by: TJ | Link to this comment | 08- 5-07 5:11 PM
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Fast feat.

Type more slowly, will. Press down on the E key. MMMM. E key. Now again. Down and up. Oooh, yeah, E key. Smoooooove.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 08- 5-07 6:23 PM
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Look at that Eithopia considered the greatest distance runner of all time

If you mean Gebreselassie, he's not as fast as he was when he was younger, younger people run the events in which he won gold medals and for which he set world records faster, and he's switched to longer road races where stamina matters more than sheer speed. He's also still in his 30s. It's true that he and Paul Tergat are running faster marathons than most people ran when they were younger, but back then he and Tergat specialized at shorter distances. I think it's fairly unusual for the top 10k runners to move into the marathon, but maybe people only notice these guys because they've been so successful.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 08- 5-07 7:29 PM
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You guys got will wrong. It's "Fast feat. Stretch Your Glide", clearly a collaborative musical effort.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 08- 5-07 7:43 PM
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88: the hip snappinest single of the summer!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 08- 5-07 7:48 PM
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69 (not a euphemism): Women should be allowed to have bioengineered testicles implanted.

Everything old is new again.

Goat Gland Brinkley


Posted by: Dr Paisley | Link to this comment | 08- 6-07 9:35 PM
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