Re: Jason Bourne is the being for whom his being is an issue

1

And the movies in question were...?


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 08-18-07 1:34 PM
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I can't remember.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 08-18-07 1:36 PM
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3

Now that's a funny comment.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 08-18-07 1:37 PM
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#3 was obviously the new Tommy Lee Jones movie, "In the Valley of Elah," or whatever. That man sure has some lines on his face.


Posted by: arthegall | Link to this comment | 08-18-07 2:02 PM
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I'm guessing #2 might be the Jake Gyllenhaal movie, "Rendition?"


Posted by: arthegall | Link to this comment | 08-18-07 2:03 PM
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Or #3 could be "The Kingdom."


Posted by: arthegall | Link to this comment | 08-18-07 2:04 PM
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#3 was "The Kingdom", yeah. #2 involved vigilante violence after our lily-livered criminal justice system was forced to let someone go because his rights had been violated in the course of the investigation or trial or some other pansy reason like that.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 08-18-07 3:21 PM
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Was it the one with Kevin Bacon? Where he goes all vigilante on his son's killer, or something?


Posted by: arthegall | Link to this comment | 08-18-07 3:25 PM
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"Death Sentence"

Tag line: "Protect what's yours."

omFg.


Posted by: arthegall | Link to this comment | 08-18-07 3:26 PM
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10

beowulf rocks, but probably not the Beowulf movie.

It is bitter for an old man
to see his son go riding high
on the gallows. Then he may tell
a true sorrow-song
while his son swings,
a joy to the ravens --

and old and wise and sad,
he cannot help him at all.

Always, each morning
he remembers well
his son's passing.
He does not care to wait
for another guardian of heirlooms
to grow in his homestead,
when the first has had
such a deadly fill of violent deeds.

Miserable, he looks upon
his son's dwelling -- deserted
winehall, windswept bedding....

emptied of joy. The rider sleeps,
warrior in the grave. No harp music,
no games in the courtyard,
as there had been.

Then he goes to his bed
and sings his cares over, alone,
for the other. All seems too open,
the fields and the house.....

2444-2462.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 08-18-07 3:30 PM
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vigilante violence after our lily-livered criminal justice system was forced to let someone go because his rights had been violated in the course of the investigation or trial or some other pansy reason like that

Hardly anything new and hardly a call for fascism, though, is it?


Posted by: Hamilton—Lovecraft | Link to this comment | 08-18-07 3:33 PM
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It is bitter for an old man to see his son go riding high on the gallows. Then he may tell a true sorrow-song while his son swings, a joy to the ravens --

Reminds me of one of my favorite metafilter comments, oddly enough:

I once stood up to give him my seat on the tube at Tottenham Court Road. We got chatting and he gave me a handful of little labels - the kind where you get 500 printed up with your name and address. Except these ones bore funny little poems of his. He wore a daffodil tucked into the band of his hat and told me that it's terrible to grow old.

What translation are you quoting, Emerson?


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 08-18-07 3:36 PM
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Hardly anything new and hardly a call for fascism, though, is it?

I think you misunderstand. w-lfs-n is calling for fascism as the only viable response to these movies.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 08-18-07 3:38 PM
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14

Hamilton, you proto nazi, you.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 08-18-07 3:40 PM
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Chickering, which I have adapted. His was the most useful single book I found -- it includes the text and a LOT of helpful notes.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 08-18-07 3:50 PM
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On the other hand we have _Shooter_ which was the most aggressively anti-US govt movie I have yet seen.
There've been plenty of movies that deal with corruption in the US govt, start with at least _Day of the Condor_ in the early 70s. But this is the first I have seen that ends not with handing the matter over to the authorities (there always remain some decent authorities, because the corruption is always a matter of a few bad apples), but which has that route, attempting to follow the law, fail, meaning that our hero has to take matters into his own hands killing high-up members of the US govt.

Of course it still didn't claim that the president knew, it still didn't claim that the corruption was part of the entire system rather than limited (though it came close to that), and it didn't have our hero killing the US president. Still, on its way to that point.
Which raises the issue of how the Secret Service would react if someone were to make a commercial movie that presented killing the president as a decent honorable act rather than as a terrible crime/tragedy.


Posted by: Maynard Handley | Link to this comment | 08-18-07 3:51 PM
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which I have adapted.

Shoulda guessed.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 08-18-07 3:52 PM
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Speaking of helpful notes, I'm reading a 1971 translation of Natsume Soseki's Light and Darkness—which includes a footnote explaining what rock-paper-scissors is.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 08-18-07 3:54 PM
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Only very slightly, though. I formatted half-lines as lines, mostly.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 08-18-07 3:56 PM
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for another guardian of heirlooms

How sad that when I read this line I think of tomatoes.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 08-18-07 3:57 PM
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One factor in Beowulf is that swords and other weapons and armor counted as heirlooms, like jewelry (and both were made by blacksmiths and sometimes called by the same name). The best swords had their stories: someone might inherit the sword which his father had gotten by killing X, who in turn had gotten it by killing Y. The better a sword a man had, the more he was a target, and a poor fighter with a famous sword was essentially dead meat.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 08-18-07 4:09 PM
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How can it possibly be sad to think of tomatoes? Damn, but the green Zebras from the farmers' market have been fabulous.

Where he goes all vigilante on his son's killer, or something?

As sentimentally fond as I am of many aspects of '70's culture, this is a theme I'd rather not see come back, although Bush may certainly have set the economic stage for it.


Posted by: cerebrocrat | Link to this comment | 08-18-07 4:10 PM
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I can tell you I'd be very reluctant to go into battle armed with Zebra tomatoes. Victor Davis Hanson would laugh at me, for one thing.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 08-18-07 4:11 PM
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24

Someday I should really reread The Master of Hestviken, which my dad pushed upon me in my youth and whose middle volumes I found slow going in that unripe state.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 08-18-07 4:12 PM
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Which raises the issue of how the Secret Service would react if someone were to make a commercial movie that presented killing the president as a decent honorable act rather than as a terrible crime/tragedy.

I frankly don't remember if the president is eventually killed in this Clint Eastwood movie, but it is definitely put forward as the right thing to do. In the book it's based on the president actually gets the death penalty for his crimes.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 08-18-07 4:22 PM
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24: You really should vine ripen volumes.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 08-18-07 4:28 PM
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I was the unripe one, Cala, and I think it's for the best that I was removed from the only vine to which I've ever been attached as soon as I was. Any other way of proceeding would have been extremely inconvenient for my mother, for example.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 08-18-07 4:29 PM
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Isn't there a scene in Absolute Power where the president opens the door to someone with a envelope opener or something like that? It's towards the end of the movie, obviously.


Posted by: Klug | Link to this comment | 08-18-07 4:30 PM
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29

We could have grafted you to allow you time to flower.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 08-18-07 4:39 PM
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30

The hard right is starting to abandon Bush because of immigration and military failure. Paranoid fantasies about killing Presidents will soon become OK again. But it's not something to celebrate.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 08-18-07 4:40 PM
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14: I chust vant ze trains to run on time, eez zat zo wrong?


Posted by: Hamilton—Lovecraft | Link to this comment | 08-18-07 5:03 PM
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32

What the fuck kind of accent is that?


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 08-18-07 5:04 PM
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33

What's wrong is your completely incompetent German accent.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 08-18-07 5:05 PM
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34

Fucking w-lfs-n.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 08-18-07 5:06 PM
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35

Guardian of Heirlooms is the organic food romantic comdedy / zombie psychedelic horror crossover hit of the summer!


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 08-18-07 5:07 PM
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36

I chust vant to talk in zis silly aggzent, eez zat zo wrong?


Posted by: Hamilton—Lovecraft | Link to this comment | 08-18-07 5:10 PM
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37

I think that the "z" for "th" is French, but the "ch" for "j" and the "v" for "w" is good German (used by Desbladet!)


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 08-18-07 5:15 PM
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38

And what's with the "eez"? Anyway, the trains ran on time (not really) in Italy.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 08-18-07 5:16 PM
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39

I chust vant to mek jou vaste ass much time on zis queschun ass possible, eez zat zo wrong?


Posted by: Hamilton—Lovecraft | Link to this comment | 08-18-07 5:19 PM
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40

Maybe he's Swiss.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 08-18-07 5:25 PM
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41

re: 40

He's clearly British. In the great tradition of British actors with years of Shakespearean training playing generic baddies in a weird Mittel-European accent.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08-18-07 5:29 PM
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42

Alsatian.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 08-18-07 5:46 PM
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43

That's a dog.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 08-18-07 5:54 PM
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44

Lorraine.

(That's a quiche.)


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 08-18-07 5:57 PM
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45

41 gets it right except for the British part.


Posted by: Hamilton—Lovecraft | Link to this comment | 08-18-07 6:00 PM
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46

#2 involved vigilante violence after our lily-livered criminal justice system was forced to let someone go because his rights had been violated in the course of the investigation or trial or some other pansy reason like that

I saw this and another preview for a movie in which Jodie Foster goes anti-hero to take down teh crime. Why this spate of movies, when the crime rate is down?


Posted by: Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 08-18-07 9:26 PM
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The latest Jason Bourne movie is solidly anti-facist, at least in the 5-6 minutes of the movie that aren't devoted to chase scenes, gunfights, martial arts, establishing shots of cool world capitals, etc.

How sad that when I read this line I think of tomatoes.

This is why we need to engage in perpetual war against the entire rest of the world, because our young men are getting soft in peacetime.


Posted by: marcus | Link to this comment | 08-18-07 9:27 PM
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48

46. Established crowd-pleasing formula.


Posted by: Hamilton—Lovecraft | Link to this comment | 08-18-07 10:38 PM
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Because this thread is kind of about movies, and other people have indirectly mentioned Bush, and alluded to Nazis, I don't consider this comment off-topic: I just came from seeing No End in Sight, and I'm so angry I want to harm someone.


Posted by: cerebrocrat | Link to this comment | 08-18-07 11:31 PM
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50

I just watched Reservoir Dogs. Verdict: Meh. It was okay, but I now realize why so many people can't stand Tarantino.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 08-19-07 12:52 AM
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51

50.1: What the fuck is wrong with you?
50.2: What the fuck is wrong with you???


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 08-19-07 12:58 AM
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52

Surely you would agree that Pulp Fiction is much better in every conceivable way.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 08-19-07 12:58 AM
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53

Well, most. Pulp Fiction is kind of iconic. But a lot of the innovative bits of PF were nascent if not present in RD. The dialog, in particular (Mr. Tarantino's signature), was a straight shot from True Romance->Reservoir Dogs->Pulp Fiction.


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 08-19-07 1:15 AM
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54

Yeah, I see that, but in comparison to PF RD just seems kind of unsatisfying. The repartee scenes definitely foreshadow PF, but they're clunkier and seem to drag on and on. Likewise the violence: similar, but not as elegant or stylized (and it takes up a much greater portion of the total screen time). I think if I had seen RD first I would have liked it better, but having seen PF I just kept comparing everything about RD to it and finding it wanting.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 08-19-07 1:19 AM
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55

Also, note my criticism in 51.1. If it's taken you this long to watch a classic like Reservoir Dogs, your commitment to other long overdue milestones is in question.


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 08-19-07 1:20 AM
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56

You're not going to want to hear what other iconic movies I haven't seen, then. I don't watch a lot of movies.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 08-19-07 1:21 AM
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54: Well, I suppose it's like when I saw Citizen Kane. Decent movie I suppose, but it doesn't have anything that hasn't been done better, later.

Re:RD: I'm disappointed by McCain's tanking. After the MCA 2006 vote, I came up w/ the cleverest idea for a youtube ad: Video of McCain trying to pass off his "centrist" views to R primary voters, interspersed with "Stuck in the Middle With You."


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 08-19-07 1:28 AM
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I suspected that I wouldn't like Pulp Fiction, but I wasn't expecting boredom to be the reason.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 08-19-07 1:30 AM
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Yeah, I had a similar reaction to Citizen Kane, though I still liked it a lot. One thing that amazes me about CK is how few people I meet have seen it. (The question does actually arise rather often in my life.)


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 08-19-07 1:37 AM
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Boredom? Really? PF was kind of the epitome of 90s American film. You can't get bored by PF, and then find Men in Black really exciting.


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 08-19-07 1:44 AM
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56: So why the reluctance to see movies? Good movies are good, and bad movies are transitory. You don't need to study a good movie, or stress over it; no one's asking you to write a paper on it.


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 08-19-07 1:49 AM
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blah blah tarantino sucks blah citizen kane sucks blahdie blah

What the fucking fuck is fucking wrong with you fucking fuckers?


Posted by: cerebrocrat | Link to this comment | 08-19-07 1:53 AM
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Did I find Men in Black really exciting? I don't think I've seen it all at once - just parts between commercials on tv.

Citizen Kane may be most profitably watched for the Simpsons references.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 08-19-07 1:55 AM
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64

And I do like Citizen Kane, but there's a kind of coldness and distance to many of the scenes that keeps me from really liking it on a regular personal enjoyment fun level.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 08-19-07 2:05 AM
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Teo: You should watch movies, if only for the sake of your sex drive. Chicks dig fellows who can expose them to shit they didn't know they liked before. When I was your age, Koyaanisqatsi was a favorite, as were Zentropa and The Big Sleep. I'm sure these are well out of date, but a filmic literacy is more easily displayed than the regular kind. The UC Theater was so kind to me.


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 08-19-07 2:18 AM
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I saw Reservoir Dogs after Pulp Fiction and while I really like the latter -- in fact I generally like all of Tarantino's work, film-snobbery bedamned -- I didn't enjoy the former much at all. Friends who saw Reservoir Dogs when it was a small art-house hit and before it broke through into the main stream seem to retain a lot of affection for it, though.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08-19-07 2:20 AM
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I agree with 64 and 66.

As for why I don't watch more movies, it's mainly because they take up so much time, time in which I could be (but usually am not) doing any number of other things. I don't like the passivity of sitting there for two hours with no control over what I'm seeing.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 08-19-07 12:28 PM
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68

Citizen Kane would be worth seeing solely for the purpose of understanding more jokes in classic episodes of The Simpsons. There are other good reasons to see it, too.


Posted by: Tom | Link to this comment | 08-19-07 2:32 PM
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I know a number of people who flat out don't like Citizen Kane, which I find sort of incomprehensible, although it's one of those movies which really requires at least a passing familiarity with film history to properly appreciate. (Kind of like The Outlaw Josey Wales or The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance, as distinct from The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly or Fort Apache.)

65 - You know the UC is closed now? Along with the Fine Arts and I think one of the other revival houses. Also, I hear that the PFA's film schedule kind of blows at this point.


Posted by: snarkout | Link to this comment | 08-19-07 2:54 PM
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70

Uh, ttaM, Tarantino is the height of film snobbery. If you want to stick it to film snobs, you have to advocate Michael Bay.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 08-19-07 2:55 PM
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"Pulp Fiction" was a great movie that gave birth to a lot of annoying film conventions in later, lesser, imitators.

Citizen Kane suffers on video, it really helps to see it on the big screen. I know everybody says this about everything, but still. I always found it a very enjoyable movie in its own right, even apart from the film-school mythology that has since encrusted it.

Depressing how hard it is to find good rep houses now...score for Cleveland!


Posted by: marcus | Link to this comment | 08-19-07 3:57 PM
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re: 70

Where I'm from film snobs are all into obscure Japanese directors or 80 year old French guys who last made a film in 1956.

"Oh, Pulp Ficton, it's nothing but a second rate rip-off of Nojosawa's Island of the Noh-Women", etc.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08-19-07 4:03 PM
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73

Well, there's film snobs and then there's film snobs.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 08-19-07 4:12 PM
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74

You know the UC is closed now? Along with the Fine Arts and I think one of the other revival houses.

Yeah, I think the only real rep theater in the Bay Area at this point is the Red Vic. The Parkway and Cerrito occasionally show older films, but that's about it for the East Bay. And the Act I & II closed a while back.


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 08-19-07 4:21 PM
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75

Also, the Bourne Ultimatum is terribly environmentally friendly. Bourne zips around all over Europe - Moscow, Berlin, London, Madrid, Tangiers - and I don't think he takes a single flight. He does it all by high-speed electric train and the occasional ferry. Also, the bad guys drive SUVs.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 08-20-07 4:08 AM
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re: 73

My ex girlfriend was a film major.* That may have set the bar quite high on film snobbery.

* I'm actually traducing her, she wasn't a really bad film snob, but she was able almost always able to trump you when it came to spotting film references.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08-20-07 5:43 AM
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75 -- how do you think Bourne gets to New York, at the end? Unless he's putting his personal crusade on hold to take a cruise across the Atlantic...


Posted by: arthegall | Link to this comment | 08-20-07 5:44 AM
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