I like the intonation on "everywhere like such as."

Oh, that poor girl. Really, I wouldn't take that as evidence that she's an idiot, just lost it under pressure. Why South Africa, I wonder. Iraq is obvious, but heading straight for South Africa in answer to a question about not being able to find the US on a map seems odd.

She placed third overall.

I should just never watch these things. I end up feeling so unkind, and painfully embarrassed for the people. I always hope it's a hoax.

For our children!

I would take it as evidence that she is a pretty dim bulb who lost it under pressure, but I'm not very nice. The Iraq. Everywhere like such as.

2: Maybe it's some memory of the apartheid issue in the 80's (passed on via family?). If you rarely think about other countries, the little snippets you do know can gain unjustified prominence.

Her answers during the swimsuit competition were more cogent. She feels ill-at-ease when fully clothed. Give her a break, you monsters.

So much for teaching them well and letting them lead the way.

Its like a serious bummer, man, when U.S. Americans hafta go to war just to learn geography.

Also note that she PERSONALLY believes all this stuff. So if you thought she was speaking on behalf of someone else, the joke's on you, sucker.

10: The worst bit is that we've got the war, and still not the geography knowledge. (Parents looking to have somewhat less embarrassing children: the geography games (moving shapes around maps) on this page aren't bad. I've engaged in a certain amount of bribery to encourage my children to learn where Nebraska and Ecuador, among other places, are.)

On the other hand, she's obviously smarter than her YouTube commenters and George W. Bush will never look that cute in an evening gown.

It's the bemused contempt behind the video that makes it so lovely. And, non-haters, don't kid yourselves: she's great looking, and I bet her life is going to be an order of magnitude better than yours. Partly because when the situations are reversed--and they will be--she won't waste time on sympathy.

just lost it under pressure

The thing is, though, if you watch it with the sound turned off (and ignore the subtitles) it doesn't look as though she lost it at all. I've seen (and made, come to think of it) plenty of people go to bits in front of an audience and normally the verbal incoherence is accompanied by a lot of nonverbal fluster, tics, arm-waving, mad looking around, and embarrassed smiling, etc ad nauseam. But she doesn't do any of that. Given the shite she's saying, her face and gestures remain almost perfectly composed by comparison -- perhaps because they have been frozen in place. (To quote Clive James, perhaps a team of cosmetic dentists managed to cap not just her teeth but her entire head.)

Indeed. She's pretty! Why does she need to, like, know stuff?

15: Well, she's surely been trained since toddlerhood to retain grace under pressure.

When it said "with subtitles" I thought it was going to be mocking her accent. Mais non. She doesn't really have one--that too has been trained out of her.

14: Oh, come now, SCMT. I'm perpetually down on myself about my looks and even I don't actually believe that looking like a heavily-made-up Barbie is going to make this girl's life an order of magnitude better than mine. Honestly, you make me want to do one of those "100 things I'm thankful for" lists.

I'm also curious about how the situation will be reversed--when I'm stumble-bumming my way around trying to give a cohert speech on eyelash curlers and the proper way to choose a swimsuit? I admit, that will almost certainly be a pathetic spectacle, especially if I have to give a talk while wearing an evening gown.

I would say definitely, Frowner, her life will only be 3 to 5 times better than yours, not 10. SCMT is an ignorant motherfucker. Don't trouble your head about his misconceptions and foolishness.

I read the comments here before watching the clip. I expected that she failed some geography quiz, not that her syntax was mangled in delivering a bullshit answer about educational resources.

Could she find South Africa, or the Iraq on a map? Probably not both, but speaking as someone who's always been exceptionally good at geography, I think people without the knack can pickup enough to be commonsensical when it's important, but just don't know this stuff off the tops of their heads like I do. I hate beauty contests and America's top whatevers with a passion.

I bet attractive women have it really hard in some ways. I don't envy her. Even really intelligent attractive women? I don't envy them. It's very hard to be taken seriously as a woman as it is.

18.2: Yeah, but you'd at least have the common sense to say "I have no idea."

18.1: Yeah, Tim's being a misogynist pig. Ignore him. She'll end up as a playboy centerfold and with luck marry a guy who is equally dumb and struck by her beauty and won't treat her like shit. Whoo doggie, what a great life.

I bet her life is going to be an order of magnitude better than yours.

No doubt Nancy Thurmond and Rita Jenrette can give her some valuable advice here (like, if you're gonna have sex on the capitol steps, like, take a pillow. Ew. Or: mum's the word on your husband's illegitimate biracial children, especially if he's a powerful white Dixiecrat.).

So B, Frowner, have you heard the Miranda Lambert song yet?

The what now?

CD I gave you. Hmph.

I have no idea why the word "misogynist" is used in 22.

Even really intelligent attractive women? I don't envy them. It's very hard to be taken seriously as a woman as it is.

Yes. But they always have something to fall back on.

See, John, you overestimate my ability to remember names, or indeed, to even bother to look them up. This is why I know nothing about music: I listen to it, but I never know who or what I'm listening to, because I never bother to find out.

I'm the same way in art museums. It's kind of awful, actually. Anyway, which track are we talking about here?

Why would someone ask a teenage beauty contest her opinion on the general lack of education in America? It's funny that her answer was so terrible, but what percent of American teens could give a decent answer to that question? My uneducated guess would be something like 0.001% of them. It just strikes me as a really stupid question to ask.

Without viewing the link or reading the comments, let me guess:

It's the Ms. America contestant, isn't it?

Sometimes the web, it is so boring. You can do better, Apo!

(Unless I'm wrong, in which case, um, sorry?)

It is to weep.

And call me a prude, Andrea-Dworkin-like, but I do blame the pornocracy. Under whatever other regime, on what other planet that anyone can name, would such an inarticulate spokesperson have even been called to our attention as a potential spokesperson for just about anything under the sun in the first place?

I want to not pile on with the misogny, but then again, frankly, I'm just fucking appalled.

"I'm giving up on love because love's given up on me." First track of one CD. Completely unlike all the others.

Under whatever other regime, on what other planet that anyone can name, would such an inarticulate spokesperson have even been called to our attention as a potential spokesperson for just about anything under the sun in the first place?

All of them? Any culture with celebrities, anyway.

Why would someone ask a teenage beauty contest her opinion on the general lack of education in America?

Well, why not?

33 gets it right.

spokesperson

Spokesperson? Who views these pagent-winners as automatically* legitimate spokespeople, rather than entertainment? A few morons I'm sure, but I'd be saddened and depressed if it was more than that.

*Certainly some have performed well and become something like serious spokespeople.

Now I feel like an asshole. Really, it's only because I've seen it everywhere tonight, and, well, I am an asshole.

Hugs?

33: Any culture with celebrities, anyway.

How often do you hear a celebrity this inarticulate? It's not just that she's unclear, or that what she says is a bad response. I honestly have no idea what sort of thoughts are going through her head. Is she trying to suggest that Americans should know more geography in order to know about nations that we should help? Did she just hear the word "geography" and start talking about the first countries that came to mind, without even parsing the question? I really can't tell. Most celebrities are fairly good at communicating, even if the ideas they're communicating aren't very interesting or coherent.

Well, why not?

Because just because a teen shares the same nationality as 50,000,000 other teens, that (surprisingly) doesn't actually give them magical insight on the conditions and environments all of these other teens live in.

Emerson, I don't even believe you. And anyway, your cynicism is so always and already and etc, that I have to dismiss it on (pre)-theoretical grounds, if you know what I mean, or even if you don't.

I disagree with the use of the word "spokesperson' anyway. Generally spokespeople in our society have to be both attractive and articulate, not just attractive.

38. It's equivocating to just keep using the phrase "most celebrities". Compare likes to likes. "Most celebrities" I see are older, and talking about easy stuff, like their new movies.

she's great looking, and I bet her life is going to be an order of magnitude better than yours

Yeah, like what's-her-name who married the rich old guy who died, and then her son od'd while she was having a baby, and then she died and there was the big custody case? Great life.

Hey, it was a song title. Top country hit. The world is coming around to my POV.

I normally agree with 4, but she sounds so much like a robot failing the Turing test that I can't even empathize. Her ludicrousness is just so far from fazing her. I feel more sorry for the people that have to humor her - what is that guy holding the microphone thinking? Do they all have to studiously avoid mentioning her true cyborg nature, lest it cause a program error and she fly into a murderous rage?

#39. That's true, but if we concede that beauty pageants are something akin to professional wrestling, does it really matter what questions get asked? Or how?

Her ludicrousness is just so far from fazing her.

I think that if you think about this, you'll find that you can't actually know this.

I feel more sorry for the people that have to humor her - what is that guy holding the microphone thinking?

I don't know, maybe "this job is easy!" Or maybe you're right, and he does *really* want to dump on her on stage, and embarass her in front of a huge audience, just in case a couple drooling morons didn't actually realize on their own that her answer was incoherent.

I really did think the "turing test" snark was hilarious!

46. Is having importance a precondition to the possibility of being stupid?

Anna Nicole Smith was a stripper and a Playboy model, not a pageant queen. There's quite a class differential.

I don't even want to watch this video. I hate seeing people forced to do something out of their element.

I was befuddled by the controversy over the beauty queens who were "disgraced" by getting drunk and making out with each other in bars or getting videotaped topless or whatever. With people who buy into the SexyScript to the degree that it becomes their entire career, what the hell do you expect? What do you even want? A sexy girl is a girl who gets rewarded, at least in the short term, for acting slutty and available, and gets rewarded for little else. You can either have that, or women who act like immobile statues. The whole idea of a beauty queen as any sort of role model is a paradox.

You can either have that, or women who act like immobile statues.

This is supposed to be the two types of acceptable beauty queens, not the two types of acceptable women in general.

42: fair enough, though really I think this is a pretty singular example compared to any group. Generalizations about 'culture' or 'pornocracy' being responsible for this seem to me to fall flat, when I can't think of any time that I've seen a person speak so completely incoherently without looking confused and exhibiting some awareness of the incoherence. Toadmonster's comparison is apt.

I feel like an asshole for mocking her, but the words she produces just seem strangely fascinating. Like the language of a stroke victim, or of certain internet crackpots who don't realize they're crazy.

A sexy girl is a girl who gets rewarded, at least in the short term, for acting slutty and available, and gets rewarded for little else.

I never get rewarded for acting slutty and available. For this, I am annoyed in the short term, but glad in the long term.

36 and 41: I honour your innocence. And more (or perhaps less) than honour, I even envy you your innocence.

Far be it from me to schill for Faux News, but have you tuned into that network lately? Spokesperson. Heh.

53, you're not a girl, you're a woman. I mean in high school or around age 19, among her peers.

Actually, that's not what I mean. I was talking about people who have careers like Jillian Barberie's. I am being completely incoherent. Never mind.

It just sickens me to see hypocrisy like Donald Trump's bemoaning of the slutty behavior of his beauty queens.

But it's kind of what I meant in 21. If I could please le Patriarchy by being a giant sexbot and get rewarded for it, I don't think I'd be a very good person. Even some of the highly intelligent beautiful people I know get tripped up by this temptation a lot. It's so much easier to assume that you do well because of some combination of hot bod and hot brain that you tend to rely on the bod where the brain would do the trick.

#48. Not at all. But "having importance" is a precondition to the possibility of there being a significant difference between one silly question and another.

I was befuddled by the controversy over the beauty queens who were "disgraced" by getting drunk and making out with each other in bars or getting videotaped topless or whatever. With people who buy into the SexyScript to the degree that it becomes their entire career, what the hell do you expect? What do you even want?

Something more complex, and therefore possibly more titilating, than just a cheesecake model. People in this thread seem to be parsing the whole pageant thing as of a lower social class than it really is - at least a lot of it, anyway, there has been creep. But pageants are really pretty middle class, the same way that real debutantes (again: creep) are upper class, and the rules of proper sexual behavior and decorum are different for both, AND different for... well, your average Anna Nicole Smith wannabe. Why do you think there are all those college scholarships attached to the damn things? Middle class hypocrisy is basically the name of the game.

If I could please le Patriarchy by being a giant sexbot and get rewarded for it, I don't think I'd be a very good person.

What if you created great art or something on the side? Used it to fund your hobbies or your true passion?

Like Lee Miller for example.

I am just all bitter because a superfoxy chick made out with me at a bar on Friday, and it ended in disaster, and, at the time, I was all "She likes me! She thinks I'm gorgeous!" and then "Wah! But she doesn't respect me!" In retrospect, I'm like, "Of course she didn't respect you. That's what happens when random people at bars make out with chicks they don't know." Lesson learned!

Wait, apo posted this? And she's from SC?

Apostropher: objectively North-Carolinist.

Anna Nicole Smith was a stripper and a Playboy model, not a pageant queen. There's quite a class differential.

I don't see your point, quite. Upper middle-class girls don't take pills, marry for money, or get abused? Anna Nicole was doomed to an unhappy ending because she was a bad poor girl?

All I meant was that, contrary to what somebody upthread asserted, great looks aren't a ticket to a great life, unless they're accompanied by a certain minimum of intelligence, or at least some cunning.

My judgement has been forever informed by the scene in Broadcast News where the brilliant writer producer completely fails as an anchor. Extemporaneous speaking is obviously not as easy as it looks, failure is not correlated to low intelligence, and I will never ever speak live on-camera.

And, well, she was a blonde.

Extemporaneous speaking is obviously not as easy as it looks, failure is not correlated to low intelligence

Oh, some kinds of failure are. For instance, "they don't have maps," or "a chicken is a bird and a cow is an animal".

I don't see your point, quite. Upper middle-class girls don't take pills, marry for money, or get abused? Anna Nicole was doomed to an unhappy ending because she was a bad poor girl?

Pageants are trophy-wife training for (mostly) middle-class girls who are (mostly) already on the way to success. Thus the grades and the scholarships and the pretense of dressing them up in evening gowns and asking them Very Serious Questions. So yes, bad shit happens to these young women sometimes, especially on the lower end of the pageant scene where, but it's really kind of silly to compare it to the situation of ANS, who was abandoned by her father really early and was a high school drop out. From what I know of pageants at the level Miss South Carolina here was competing at (knowledge courtesy of my insane cousin), it's not enough just to actually be in school, there's at least a cursory nod towards decent grades as well.

Just... they aren't really comparable situations, and Tim's point about her probably having at least a decent life is pretty much right on. We all smirk about the "pageant mom" thing, but it's a very different kind of family dysfunction than Anna Nicole.

the words she produces just seem strangely fascinating. Like the language of a stroke victim

This was what captured me. It's like a random phrase generator.

I get lots of papers from freshmen than come out sounding like this woman, but usually they speak more coherently, so I encourage them to read their papers out loud to themselves and ask if they make sense. Once in a blue moon, you get someone who reads a sentence like that aloud and says, "So?"

It's fucking disturbing how much time post-secondary institutions have to spend teaching remedial reading and writing skills.

Oh sweet jeebus. (1) I was a little irritated by the condescension in the comments--or the condescension in the forbearance--so I said she was going to have a better life than everyone else because of her attractiveness. (2) The very attractive, male and female, do benefit from their looks. Their world is just different from that in which everyone else lives. How is this news? (3) Who knows what was going on with her? Maybe she was nervous, maybe she was drunk, maybe she's a moron. In any case, she'll be fine. And the video is funny.

70 is right.

69: Writing skills can't be measured quantitatively; the ability to judge writing skills can't be measured quantitatively either; so they are ignored when it comes to making standards for schools.

My HS English teacher hated pageants but somehow got sucked into teaching girls how to prepare for them because she was so appalled by the way People My Age spoke, with their "like"s and "um"s. Her training began with making the girls read the complete works of Jane Austen. Aloud. She refused to teach anyone until they did that because she felt that was the only way to gauge their true dedication to change (and wanting to actually learn how to speak, as opposed to learning how to win a pageant) and because she thought that Jane Austen was the best training for proper speech.

Did it work?

What would have been a good answer to the question? That would have been appropriate to the occasion, that is?

I was a little irritated by the condescension

I know what you mean.

"Don't ask me, what do I know?"

The whole idea of a beauty queen as any sort of role model is a paradox.

Not at all. As Rocky's kind of saying, the pageant thing is *supposed* to be about ideal womahood: oh sure, there's the swimsuit competition, but there's also the evening gown, and the "talent" and the ridiculously vapid questions about Important Issues like Education Today and How Can We Save the Children. And of course the women are *supposed* to come up with vapid answers that are completely free of content but make everyone feel good about caring so much. And the prettiness is supposed to be wholesome prettiness. Yes, they're supposed to be sexy, but again, in that wholesome way where if you actually pose for Playboy before your pageant career is over, you get drummed out of the biz.

I'm not thinking this woman is going to have a great life; I don't see how one *could* have a great life with the values and lack of critical thinking pretty much necessary for having a pageant career.

And though I see Rocky's point in re. class distinctions, I also think that arguably grooming your daughter for pageantry is not entirely unlike molesting her. But it's true that generally pageant winners are respectable in ways that strippers aren't.

She'll end up as a playboy centerfold and with luck marry a guy who is equally dumb and struck by her beauty and won't treat her like shit. Whoo doggie, what a great life.

What's supposed to be wrong with it?

That's a pretty huge "arguably" there, B.

In Ogged's absence, I'll be the one to suggest people not take that bait.

I'm not thinking this woman is going to have a great life; I don't see how one *could* have a great life with the values and lack of critical thinking pretty much necessary for having a pageant career.

Diane Sawyer was born Lila Diana Sawyer on December 22, 1945 in Glasgow, Kentucky. Soon after her birth, her family moved to Louisville, where her father, Erbon Powers "Tom" Sawyer, rose to local prominence as a politician and community leader. E.P. "Tom" Sawyer State Park, located in the Frey's Hill area of Louisville, is named in his honor. In 1963, she won the "America's Junior Miss" scholarship pageant as a representative from the State of Kentucky

I agree with 77, and it seems to agree with the point to which it responds "Not at all."

I have also been hanging around the blogosphere for too long and am no longer as impressed and entertained by the glib articulate well-reasoned bullshit that passes for wisdom. I am close to concluding that the vast majority is some kind of aestheticism pretending to be about ethics or politics or even reality. Style points, hit-counts, trackbacks. Credibility and respect of like-minded peers. Lawyers, philosophers, economists.

O'Pollahan and Boot influence policy...aw never mind. Why is this thread a metaphor for the leftish blogosphere?

Still trolling, I suppose.

In Ogged's absence, I'll be the one to suggest people not take that bait.

Word. Troll!

Wait, that is, I agree with the first paragraph of 77.

71: Writing skills can't be measured quantitatively

The really basic ones can.

I have to go to bed (should have hours ago) and catch a plane. If anyone tries to encite a tiresome gender war while I'm gone, blow the whistle on them and give them a time out.

79: Not bait at all. Teaching one's little girl that being pretty and complaint and vapid is the height of femininity seems to me to be a form of abuse. That's all I meant.

That should be "incite". Sorry, I'm wearing an evening dress.

Arguably, trolling a beauty pageant thread is not entirely unlike molesting a child.

86: How about inciting a tiresome grammar war?

Crap, pwned.

My children will comment on unfogged from a young age, with Dr. w-lfs-n correcting their grammar, he, tenured, comfortably numb and high on homemade absinthe.

That's my education plan, so far.

complaint [....] is the height of femininity

SEXIST!

Complaint works for both genders. It's nagging that's the height of femininity.

That's my education plan, so far.

Be sure to include maps.

66 and 70 have it right, she could perfectly well be heading for a good life. Especially if she gets the right husband. I'm not sure that video demonstrates she isn't intelligent. There are lots of forms of intelligence. Maybe she has some feel for how idiotic the whole farce is, and she just sort of gave up on generating fake words to answer the fake question in the fake competition. The smirk on her face seemed to show some gut-level awareness that the whole thing was bullshit. That's a form of intelligence, right?

I've noticed that smart people are rather quick to get negative about beautiful people. But I haven't particularly noticed that smart people are kinder, warmer, more generous, or happier than beautiful people. (I haven't noticed that they are less so either, exactly, it just varies a lot).

Be sure to include maps.

Well, yeah, duh: Map.

#50: I hate seeing people forced to do something out of their element.

But this is her element. She's a pageant contestant and questions like this are part of the pageant procedure. Besides, how hard would it be to just blather something empty and political like:

"Americans can't find America on a map because our nation's schools are failing to teach geography well, just as they are failing to teach other subjects well. I believe that children are our future, and we must make sure our children receive a better education than the one too many of them are receiving today. As Miss Whatever This Pageant Is Called, I pledge to use the power of my title to promote sound teaching and a love of knowledge in our teachers, schools, and children."

There you go. If she can't spew banalities on command, maybe she doesn't deserve to be Miss Something Or Other.

Her element should not involve talking. That's not part of the competition, she's not graded on it, it's just a pointless formality that beauty queens have to go through, like big-name college athletes having to get grades in classes.

How much time did you spend on the pageant circuit, GB?

99: that's kind of what I was getting at in 96...she's calling them on their bullshit. It's a subversive act! Subversion!

Bah, pageants are inane and putting your daughters or yourself on them is inane. I'm sorry, but it just is.

98 fails, because it is offensive to teachers. The trick is to deliver pabulum that is offensive to absolutely nobody, yet appears substantive and idealistic. And GB had more time than the contestant.

I agree with 102, but think it's just as true if you swap out "pageants" for "opera".

At least if you learn opera, you have to learn a little bit of German, French, and Italian.

And also crack the cartilidge in your sternum.

C'mon, opera singers make pretty music.

107: People say that about Joni Mitchell and the Beach Boys too, but that's inane. I'm sorry, but it just is.

We may be reaching the limits of the "it just is" method of art-criticism-by-assertion. We'll just have to chalk it up to subjective differences in taste.

I don't think you understand how the trolling process operates, marcus.

#101: It would have been kind of awesome if she had explicitly called the questioner on his bullshit and said something like, "Why do you think it's important for a beauty pageant contestant to have an opinion on the state of America's educational system?"

Changing the subject, you'd almost think David Malki lurks here.

Come on, going from child molestation to inanity in two steps was pretty impressive. I look forward to seeing this technique applied in other areas.

I don't think you understand how the trolling process operates, marcus.

Bitch has beaten me into submission. It's like I'm a comity machine now.

Bitch has beaten me into submission.

That's when she steals your fish.

I interviewed for a job over the weekend, one that would represent a considerable advance in my field. (Currently, I do freelance/contract work. Howdy, y'all.) The person who interviewed me (and would be my immediate boss) is certified by reliable sources to be truly one of the most wicked employers/persons working in this capacity throughout all of New York City. During the interview, the employer tested my direct knowledge of the subject matter that is my expertise, with questions progressing from insultingly basic to impossibly insider-y. My knowledge failed eventually, and I gave a real "everywhere like such as" answer. And when I caved, the interviewer berated me, in fact, spoke to me as if I were something between a dog and a pitiable project. I can't even say whether the interview went well, so unprecedentedly bad was this interaction, although the interviewer did commission me to [do what it is I do] for the company, as a sort of test for continued consideration. In addition, the interviewer spoke in ominously direct terms about the manifold failures or persons who previously occupied the position.

This person's reputation is awful and, it seems, warranted. So: Am I foolish to seek employment with the organization, knowing that (if turnover rates are any indication) I might be employed there for no more than 6 months? Mind you, Mineshaft, that the job would require me to relocate: to a city that is not significantly more expansive than the one I live in now but nevertheless asks a move of me when I can ill afford it. The job is semi-prestigious in an exceedingly small field, with little promise of advancement internally, but it's a fine line on the CV; further, it would serve as an introduction to a location with many more career opportunities than I currently have at my disposal locally. I am single, but I'd be leaving a social network that is very dear to me at a time when it is especially dear to me, if that makes sense.

Essentially, I'm asking: Is it possible to suffer out a period of, say, no more than 2 years, and probably considerably less than that, under a heinous employer, in particular if it comes at a time that involves a lot of social turnover? Hoping not to have gray hair before my time.

I'm not sure that video demonstrates she isn't intelligent. There are lots of forms of intelligence.

For real? If she were just inarticulate that would be one thing, but that stuff about Iraq is just...actively and really quite deplorably stupid.

As a woman, I'd like to register my objection to the various and sundry mealy-mouthed denials of the obvious that I have read in this thread, all of which seem to suggest that many people basically don't much expect to find much intelligence in a woman, but are too uncomfortable to say so. Well, excepting those "other forms" of intelligence that don't really count as intelligence, I guess. Fer fuck's sake, people, she's as dumb as a post, and if it were a vapid and stupid and inarticulate young man up on that podium you would not hesitate to say so.

I think I saw a movie about this with Anne Hathaway.

Bitch ate all the popcorn,

It's possible, but it sucks. And relocating away from an important social network is pretty awful, especially if you don't know if you'll be able to come back. And especially if you're relocating to a really stressful job with an asshole employer. I wouldn't take the job. If you want to move up in your field, there will be other, less heinous, opportunities.

117: Brava.

Wow, James. That sounds tough. I don't think I could make the move for something that promised to be (a) incredibly unsupportive, (b) potentially short-term, and (c) fairly lonely at a bad time for such a thing. If you need to move to get something better on your CV, at least move for a job that will make you happy.

I am guaranteed to have to make an unwanted move at some point in the future for the sake of my career, but without knowing that at least the job would be happier, leaving would not be possible.

The big question is, are there other options? Are you currently employed in some semi-satisfying way?

I mean, like, regular/dependable freelance?

Yeesh. How far of a relocation? Close enough for weekend visits? I wouldn't take the job, but that's mostly because if a boss ever spoke to me like that, the odds are about 50/50 that I'd throw a stapler at her head tell her to go fuck herself.

I have some impulse control issues in situations like that.

One advantage to doing freelance work is that I can take a bit of it with me; and whether or not this new job worked out after I took it, I'd be guaranteed to secure new opportunities in the new location. Presuming I weren't let go immediately after I signed, I'd be able to step back into contract work fairly gracefully.

To address (c): I would have friends, some who even frequent this very network, in the new city. I worry that if (a) leads to (b) I will feel the greatly exacerbated effects of (c).

122: Pays rent, currently. Some of the work, I couldn't do if I left this city, though some of the work could span cities. And new city is rife with opportunities in this field: It is the center of this field.

123: Close enough for weekend visits, yes. I would expect to make them.

I wouldn't take the job, but that's mostly because if a boss ever spoke to me like that, the odds are about 50/50 that I'd throw a stapler at her head tell her to go fuck herself.

I have some impulse control issues in situations like that.

Yeah, me too.

Having friends makes it easier. I guess it all depends on how psychologically capable you are of making the transition. Some hostile work environments are sort of stimulating and yield good references, if nothing else.

123: The weird thing is that, nearly as soon as I sat down to this interview, I thought, "Oh, this is my father, basically." I felt like I could game it. This person has (it seems) the same temperament as my father, and I know how to deal with it.

Comment from a friend when I told her this: "Oh, that's a totally healthy working relationship!"

Yes, yes, but how's the money?

I don't know but I have reason to think that it's very good.

So the "ill afford it" is emotional? Or just, like, you'd have to borrow to float until the checks clear?

If I moved, I'd probably have to do it on credit card, and I'd hate to have the paycheck pulled from under me after I racked up a big debt.

I have some impulse control issues in situations like that.

Yes, me too. It's one of the side-effects of having a gigantic chip on the shoulder. I respond quite badly* to people showing that kind of contemptuous disrespect.

* not 'badly' by any sane and reasonable standard. But 'badly' by the standards of our compliant, craven business/service culture.

And the other question is, do you have reason to believe that you'd be more successful, in your employer's terms, than your ill-fated predecessors? On one hand, they may have hired people who didn't know how to play some game that you could play better, but on the other, they may have a tendency to offer jobs to people they know they'll be unhappy with. Knowing which of those two situations you'll fit into would be helpful.

133: IME, it is possible that being sort of an arrogant asshole in these situations can help. I used to work for a woman who famously stomped everyone around her into meek submission. Since I wasn't in her field, I wasn't afraid of her, and we worked out a nice relationship based on me calling her out when she was condescending and her snarling a little at me behind my back.

I think I can do better than my predecessors, because I think I'm good at what I do, but also, because there are two avenues to doing what I do. Some people come to my field by way of appreciation, and I kind of did; some people come to my field because they take up the work first and the subject later, and though I definitely didn't come to it this way, I learned a great deal about the work living in the city I do, etc.

So this interviewer quizzed me, in the way that you might dream about in a particularly stressful dream. The questions on the subject matter were very tough. The question on the work/technical/trade side, however, were incredibly softball. This leads me to believe that the interviewer has not hired many people who take the trade aspect as seriously as I do, if I may humbly and ill-informedly so claim.

re: 135

It's certainly helped me in the past in a few situations. I wouldn't say I'm an arrogant asshole but I'm definitely self-confident and not afraid of confrontation. That's OK in some working environments, but in some of the service industries it really wouldn't be.

My wife takes shit from customers every week that I just couldn't. I can't see any scenario in which people talked to me the way they talked to her that didn't end in real confrontation. Of course, the irony is that they probably wouldn't talk to me that way, with those kinds of evil fucks preferring to pick on people who won't fight back.

So, how about you move, take the job, draw up a one-year lease, and do it just to know that you did it. If you lose the job, give yourself the gift of the rest of the year to scramble for freelance or other work. If it's a total disaster after six months, you sublet your new place, head back to Hometown with tail tucked, and crash on your loving friends' couches until you make ends meet. It sounds like you hate the prospect of doing it because it's a pain in the ass, but your ego wants you to try. Your ego won't leave you alone unless you do.

And debt sucks, but you'll at least get a few Big Fancy paychecks before things have a chance to go to shit, which they probably won't for at least a little while. Live cheaply, don't spend much of it, and pack the rest in your jowls for harder times.

pack the rest in your jowls for harder times.

Teh wisdom of hamsternomics.

138: This sounds about right: manifest destiny. It is a huge pain in the ass—especially as there may be some degree of professional attention regarding the fact I'm moving (the work is by nature location focuses), which increases the risk. I'd hate to take that gamble and then fail, which, I realize, distinguishes me from most people.

I have no business giving anyone professional advice. It's 3:30am and my first day of classes is tomorrow, and I'm up having anxiety attacks about my left big toe, which I've hidden from myself under gauzy bandages, lest I learn whether a drunken stub resulted in nail loss. But moving from one place where you have friends to another place where you have friends, in a career that has the potential to blossom in interesting ways, despite some thorn-in-your-side superiors, sounds like an interesting and not-totally-netless trapeze move.

I am going to go hypnotize myself into a fitful slumber.

Wait--last idea:

Why not move to the new city into a one-month sublet? This is a good idea in most cities anyway, as it will give you time to look for an apartment you actually want, instead of the first thing that comes along. It also means you have a month to figure out whether the new job is going to make you blow your brains out, or if you need to look for something else, or whatever. Plus, you won't spend all that money bringing all your stuff there in a UHaul until you know you're settled and you've brought in a check or two.

That is, of course, supposing someone will hold onto your stuff for you. Nevermind. That probably wouldn't work.

Gonzalez just resigned

Is this a step forward?

Breaking: Steely Dan finally got to Owen Wilson.

Don't mess with the Dan. You can take their music or leave it, but you have to realize that they control the karma.

OT: Shouldn't we have a going away thread for Gonzales?

How about a combined Owen Wilson / Gonzales thread?

How about Owen Wilson for AG? Got to be better than whoever Bush would pick otherwise, and it would take his mind off his problems.

Gonzales: Do you think they'll pursue him for perjury now that he's no longer protected, or is this him getting out of the way of big trouble?

Wilson: Damn, that's sad. Isn't that pretty much exactly how Luke Wilson's character tried to kill himself in The Royal Tanenbaums? Cutting plus pills? Maybe there were no pills. I've always thought that was a way-too-compelling scene in the middle of that movie.

I always kind of wonder with celebrity stories -- do we know it happened at all?

148: What, you mean like Andy Card on the White House lawn with a backpack calling, "Bacaa, bacaa!"?

117: untrue, and it is very easy to substitute a smirking frat boy up there for her. I don't think you understand what I meant by "different forms of intelligence". It's closer to McManus Somebody asked her to be slick, glib, and meaningless, and she responded by simply being meaningless. I'll save my deploring for something else.

Why not move to the new city into a one-month sublet?

No, this is a good idea. I always wish I'd done it but never do. You can stick your stuff in storage. Only problem is that you move twice, or one and a half times.

do pageant-winners grow up to be bedswervers? or, more likely perhaps, pageant losers?

(actually I just wanted to use my new word of the day in a sentences a few times - and it is a bonafide word in the english language. bedswervers!)

do pageant-winners grow up to be bedswervers?

no but many of them become dykeloupers and dubskelpers.

all passersby should click the fat englishman's link.
it is too good to miss.

ah, family.

It's the unique Google for dubskelpers.

John, I wouldn't be surprised if it was the unique written source.

Bedswerver is great.

So, OneFatEnglishman, are you descended from this lot?

Nothing so interesting in my background, alas. The only entertaining rumour in our family as that my grandfather was the illegitimate son of the Duke of Marlborough. But that was wishful thinking.

My parents thought I was gay for smoking Illegitimate Son Of The Duke Of Marlborough cigarettes, by Yves St. Laurent.

Looks like it should be the logo on the unfogged Tshirt.

"Another Proud Dubskelper from Unfogged.com"

All the dubskelper URLs are up for grabs.

There's a Musician "Dub Skelper". "Skelper" seems to be an ordinary Dutch word. "Doup skelper" was used by Robert Burns, definitiion: "doup" = bottom.
"doup-skelper" = bottom-smacker

Kind Sir, I've read your paper through,
And faith, to me, 'twas really new!
How guessed ye, Sir, what maist I wanted?
This mony a day I've grain'd and gaunted,
To ken what French mischief was brewin;
Or what the drumlie Dutch were doin;
That vile doup-skelper, Emperor Joseph,
If Venus yet had got his nose off;
Or how the collieshangie works
Atween the Russians and the Turks,
Or if the Swede, before he halt,
Would play anither Charles the twalt;
If Denmark, any body spak o't;
Or Poland, wha had now the tack o't:
How cut-throat Prussian blades were hingin;
How libbet Italy was singin;

I think that "grabass" is the colloquial translation.

DUB SKELPER "Dub Skelper" CD album (LYT Records) 1998

This is the definitive Dub Skelper album.
Loch Leven Castle, Whisky, Whisky, Big Man, Black December, Reason for Livin, Tascam Reel, Wild Wave, Stirlin' Brig, Killie Fjord, Tartan Disnae land, Stephens Awa, Parcel O' Rogues, Wild rose, Exile Song, Gut Scraper, Mirror Machine

Dyke-loupers would be something like "wall jumpers".

"Dub Skelper" is a band, not a person, a spinoff of Nyah Fearties, a Scottish punk band compar4ed favorable to the Pogues.

hee hee. Follow up on Miz South Carolina's logical path.

Shame on heebie for mocking the young and heavily make-uped.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZABeQ5vkpXM

FOLLOW-UP:

Lauren Caitlin Upton, Miss South Carolina Teen USA, whose mangled response to a pageant question has become an Internet sensation, will have a second chance to answer it on Tuesday morning's Today show.

"I didn't do anything wrong," she told South Carolina's The State newspaper. "I wasn't expecting [the question]. I lost my train of thought."

She added she "completely misunderstood" the question, which she'll get a second stab at on Today.