Re: Creeptastic

1

Today, Ogged will be telling us about good and bad touch.

So I'm gathering that if she were flirting, this would not make you happy? Pity.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 2:40 PM
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She must be totally hott, otherwise you wouldn't be cockblocking yourself like this.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 2:41 PM
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She's around fifty-five, maybe sixty.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 2:41 PM
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Yeah, she's interested in you. Some women get nervous and handsy around attractive people. Be firm and take a clear step away from her next time, or she'll (totally unconsciously!) up the ante.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 2:42 PM
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What's your top age, around 52?


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 2:43 PM
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Yeah, I finished the conversation walking away. Crazy oldsters.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 2:44 PM
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Shoes tell all. What has she chosen for footwear?


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 2:45 PM
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What has she chosen for footwear?

Hell if I know. I think yesterday she was wearing something in a leopard print. No one does that anymore, do they?


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 2:45 PM
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This sounds like a time for the exaggerated twitchy shrug and "Whoops, you startled me" the next time she touches you, then. Should get the point across.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 2:47 PM
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I think yesterday she was wearing something in a leopard print. No one does that anymore, do they?

The crazy middle-aged secretary at my office who's always hitting on me wears the occasional leopard print piece of clothing. She also has snakeskin boots that she pairs with rather short mini-skirts.


Posted by: Matt F | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 2:48 PM
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Next time, invite her out for coffee!


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 2:48 PM
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If that's true, nobody told the indigenous population of Amsterdam.


Posted by: Martin Wisse | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 2:48 PM
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Shit, I worked with her too, 15 years ago when she looked OK and I was not especially choosy, and I was still scared and slightly repelled.


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 2:49 PM
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I was looking for cute clothes yesterday afternoon and wandered into Express. Everything was leopard and tiger print, which to me looks like something a 60-year-old would wear.

While I'm at it, I will also complain that I found nothing to wear to my high school reunion next month. Even Tokio 7, the vintage-designer collector I like to go to, was full of nothing but the most old-ladyish Von Furstenbergs and some gross Michael Kors crap. H&M, mostly crap; Beacon's Closet, all conservative. If anyone knows of any stores in Manhattan that have a colorful, playful women's collection right now, I'd be happy to know about it. Prints = old-ladyish.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 2:51 PM
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Animal prints come and go. While they aren't entirely unfashionable at the moment, they're pretty much like red shoes--a cry for attention. Unless anyone here is wearing them, in which case: kidding!


Posted by: mcmc | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 2:53 PM
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Prowl through Century 21? It's always a grab-bag, but if you're not finding anything anyplace else, worth a shot.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 2:54 PM
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I can vouch for Century 21's men's shirts as of Tuesday, which I'm sure is very helpful.


Posted by: washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 2:55 PM
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Yeah, I should do C21. I never get down there, except at night. I will make an effort next week!


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 2:55 PM
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All my few experiences of being hit on resemble ogged's: blatant, from a virtual stranger, and unwelcome. And yet people consistently write here of instances not like that, which I expect to go to my grave without experiencing.


Posted by: I don't pay | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 2:56 PM
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animal prints... they're pretty much like red shoes

You're talking about outerwear here, right?


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 2:58 PM
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AWB--do you know Boden? they have some nice colorful stuff: bodenusa.com. Although I suppose it would be kind of insane for someone who lives in nyc to buy out of a catalog.


Posted by: mcmc | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 2:58 PM
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21: Cute skirt!


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 3:00 PM
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All my few experiences of being hit on resemble ogged's: blatant, from a virtual stranger, and unwelcome

Heck, I don't think I have ever been hit on. And also expect to go to my grave that way.


Posted by: CJB | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 3:00 PM
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20: Certainly. Leopard print lingerie might constitute a cry for attention, but presumably not an unwelcome one.


Posted by: mcmc | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 3:01 PM
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19: That's blatant? While what ogged's describing may be unmistakeable, and unwelcome, it sounds as if it at least qualifies as subtle.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 3:05 PM
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Heck, I don't think I have ever been hit on. And also expect to go to my grave that way.

You're kinda sexy when you're being all modest like that...


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 3:07 PM
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FWIW, my daughter is very impressed by leopard-print garments, so it's not just oldsters.

Of course, she is 3.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 3:08 PM
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This is obviously an occassion for pepper spray.


Posted by: Petey | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 3:09 PM
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And please stop telling people about Tokio 7. The more folks who know about it, the less good stuff will remain there.


Posted by: Petey | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 3:10 PM
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I think touching is pretty blatant, LB, especially at waist-level. It's an explicit invitation to escalate.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 3:10 PM
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29: I'm hoping that people will go in and buy up the crap that's there so they'll be forced to turn over what they have more often.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 3:11 PM
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I would have thought unmistakable to be, sadly, well on its way to blatant. Mine were more blatant than ogged's though, I said "resembled," not "just like."

I say sadly because I often pined for clear signals, only to realize when I got them that I didn't always want them.


Posted by: I don't pay | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 3:11 PM
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That's blatant? While what ogged's describing may be unmistakeable, and unwelcome, it sounds as if it at least qualifies as subtle.

I think you're just seeing it from opposite sides; I gather that, for idp, unmistakeable == blatant. As opposed to someone being very complimentary and smiley, and you realizing two days later that it was flirtatious.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 3:11 PM
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Well, it's not an explict pass -- that is, if Ogged responded with "No thanks, I'd rather not have sex with you" she'd look at him as if he had three heads. I'd call that still well within the 'plausible deniability' zone.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 3:13 PM
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You see, if idp had followed protocol, and used italics, I would have pwned him, not the other way around.

I demand that the record reflect this.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 3:13 PM
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We had a contractor here who came up behind me and put her hands on my shoulders like she was about to start with the back rub. I said, "Please don't ever touch me." That worked.

(Apart from the inappropriate touching she was the most boring person in the universe.)


Posted by: mcmc | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 3:14 PM
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37

28 to 27.


Posted by: Tarrou | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 3:15 PM
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Well, it's not an explict pass -- that is, if Ogged responded with "No thanks, I'd rather not have sex with you" she'd look at him as if he had three heads.

When I was a kid, I was mystified with the concept of "the pass."

I see now that I still am.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 3:16 PM
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27: Leopard print is incredibly cute on little kids. Sally had a black turtleneck/leopard leggings outfit that made her look like the worlds littlest beatnik when she was three or four. Crazily adorable.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 3:16 PM
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And while I generally dislike repeating myself, I'll note that pepper spray means never having to say, "I'm just not into you."

It's the polite way of conveying a lack of interest.


Posted by: Petey | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 3:17 PM
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41

Because it would have taken me longer to type?


Posted by: I don't pay | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 3:17 PM
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You're kinda sexy when you're being all modest like that...

See?????? I told you people!!! Divorced women in their thirties are sex-fiends. Sex fiends, I tell you!


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 3:18 PM
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Perhaps leopard print could be our secret weapon in the War Against Skirts. Nothing against skirts, but she's worn pants maybe twice in the last year, and it can be a real pain in the ass (especially in winter - she used to demand tights in the summer, now she refuses them in the cold. We'll see how it goes in the coming months).


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 3:19 PM
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Crazily adorable.

OK, my procrastination break is over now.


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 3:19 PM
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38: I was mystified with the concept of "the pass."

Any expression of sexual intent unambiguous enough to be either shot down or accepted?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 3:19 PM
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Because it would have taken me longer to type?

Mere seconds to cut & paste (and add tags!), but as you can see from the time stamp, that's all it would have taken.

In your heart, idp, you know you were pwned.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 3:20 PM
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Those of you who claim never to have been hit on, may I submit as Exhibit A, a 60-something gentleman, and Exhibit B, a 20-something gentleman, both of whom have demonstrated resounding obliviousness in the face of friendly, not-very-subtle flirtations on numerous occasions.

But for the presence of observant, impartial third parties, these flirtations would have gone completely unnoticed. Instead, at least two of them resulted in dates/relationships.

Shorter me: We all need a friend like Apo's.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 3:20 PM
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27, 39: Yeah, Rory lives in leopard print. Which she can reliably distinguish from cheetah.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 3:21 PM
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Y'all are forgetting that Ogged is pretty tall; I bet if I were going to reach out and touch him I'd end up hitting him at waist level; I mean, for an average-sized woman to, say, touch the man's shoulder she'd have to reach up which is totally awkward.

That said, sure, the woman's flirting a little; not sure why it's creeptastic, Ogged, you ageist prude. OTOH, your usual body language seems to me to be fairly standoffish, so she sounds like the kind of person who doesn't read those clues well, which can be kinda unnerving. LB's right: jump or flinch or something or look at her weird and she oughta get the message.

If not, put on a thick accent, frown, and mutter something about how in your country women aren't allowed to touch men.

they're pretty much like red shoes--a cry for attention.

Hey! I love red shoes. And yeah, animal prints are totally back. Nothing wrong with wanting attention, people.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 3:23 PM
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Any expression of sexual intent unambiguous enough to be either shot down or accepted?

Probably the only time I ever experienced this was over the phone in HS, and I misinterpreted it (one of 2 regrets in my entire life). I assume that I never missed any others, since I don't recall any sex that was unexpected. I mean, a successful date doesn't count, I assume?


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 3:23 PM
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If not, put on a thick accent, frown, and mutter something about how in your country women aren't allowed to touch men.

I was actually considering advising a comment on the leopard-print shoes: "Tell me. American women -- why do you dress yourselves as whores?"


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 3:25 PM
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I said, "Please don't ever touch me."

Or this, which I think always works.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 3:26 PM
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Someone in leopard-print stands close, laughs a lot and feels comfortable touching him? I'd give it a fifty-fifty chance she thinks he's gay.


Posted by: Robust McManlyPants | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 3:26 PM
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Hey, is this the person your colleague found threatening?


Posted by: mcmc | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 3:26 PM
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50: Depends on the date. If, rather than a totally harmonious natural evolution of affairs, there's some identifiable moment where one person makes a move after a positive response to which sex is likely or inevitable, that, in my lexicon, is a pass.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 3:27 PM
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19: All my few experiences of being hit on resemble ogged's: blatant, from a virtual stranger, and unwelcome.

"Unwelcome" is in the eye of the beholder. The Kingdom of God is within you.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 3:27 PM
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In your heart, idp, you know you were pwned

The few times I've made an obvious joke reference faster than the wiseacres around here, it's because I remembered it, close enough, and just typed it out while they went and looked it up. Monty Python, Dr. Strangelove, that kind of thing.


Posted by: I don't pay | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 3:27 PM
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Hey, is this the person your colleague found threatening?

No, we didn't hire her (and she didn't really want the job, in the end).


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 3:28 PM
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Those of you who claim never to have been hit on, may I submit as Exhibit A, a 60-something gentleman, and Exhibit B, a 20-something gentleman, both of whom have demonstrated resounding obliviousness in the face of friendly, not-very-subtle flirtations on numerous occasions.

If I missed it, definitely a possibility, it was less subtle then Ogged's experience since it didn't involve touching.


Posted by: CJB | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 3:29 PM
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You all also realize that this anti-animal-print prejudice (which admittedly I share) is awfully honktastic of us, right?


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 3:30 PM
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"The leopard's many spots... a man gives those shoes to indicate the greatness of his.... love organ?"


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 3:31 PM
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39: My niece at about 5 had a leopard print leotard she wore to kindergarten. It had an actual full-length tail.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 3:31 PM
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less subtle s/b more subtle in 59.


Posted by: CJB | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 3:31 PM
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I, in fact, am the proud owner of a two piece stretchy cotton leopard-print dress. Admittedly, it was a gift, and I haven't worn it, and I am sadly honktastic. But I could come into work tomorrow diguised as a jungle cat.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 3:32 PM
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60: And so bourgeois!


Posted by: zadfrack | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 3:32 PM
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Hey! I love red shoes. And yeah, animal prints are totally back. Nothing wrong with wanting attention, people.

On you it looks good.


Posted by: mcmc | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 3:33 PM
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Nice save, MCMC!

I can't do the leopard print thing, I'm afraid. But hell yeah I put PK in animal prints when he was a baby. Fuckin adorable. Look! A tiny leopard! How fierce!


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 3:34 PM
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Someday I am going to find the right animal-print item of clothing, and I am going to rock it. Maybe by then I will already be a blue-haired oldster, but I will rock, nonetheless.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 3:36 PM
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Depends on the date. If, rather than a totally harmonious natural evolution of affairs, there's some identifiable moment where one person makes a move after a positive response to which sex is likely or inevitable, that, in my lexicon, is a pass.

This is the clearest definition of "a pass" that I've ever gotten, and since no one is objecting, I'll take it as correct. And by this definition, I've certainly made a few passes, but I'm pretty sure that the one in HS was the only one I've received that meets the spirit of the concept.

OK, and the time that a dear, drunk friend whose bed I was sharing while I stayed in her town reached down and grabbed me. In retrospect, I probably should have gone along, but at the time I was satisfied with my gentle rejection (and the rest of the week went fine).

But I still think of passes as things that happen in public, like at dinner parties. And that has never happened to me. Alas.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 3:37 PM
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42: Keep spreading that gospel Will. Got to get the word out!


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 3:40 PM
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Tyler Cowen's book has a chapter on dating signalling which I think is watered down Robert Trivers (though Trivers is not mentioned AFAIK).

That's the one where he mentions Megan of the Archives, whom he uses as an example of the very upfront approach which reduces the target audience in the interest of getting a high quality guy.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 3:46 PM
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I think of a pass as an unmistakable sexual overture, after which etc., in an unexpected context. Part of the reason they are so often unwanted, and alos why nothing that happens on a date would qualify for the word, in my way of using it.


Posted by: I don't pay | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 3:47 PM
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It was fun, while single, to try making passes. Tried to be relatively non-creepy about it, but you can't win if you don't play.

I also developed the skill to return a conversation to safely flirty once a pass was rejected.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 3:48 PM
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I'd give it a fifty-fifty chance she thinks he's gay.

At least 80/20 leaning towards gay.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 3:51 PM
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Come here and let me set you straight, gswift.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 3:51 PM
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42: Keep spreading that gospel Will. Got to get the word out!

Di Kotimy does the Little Miss Sunshine dance when she goes out. True story.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 3:51 PM
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I say sadly because I often pined for clear signals, only to realize when I got them that I didn't always want them.

"Why do all these homosexuals keep sucking my cock?"


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 3:52 PM
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I look trashy in animal prints. It's like they unleash my inner trailer park.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 3:52 PM
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I look trashy in animal prints. It's like they unleash my inner trailer park.

Ot, your wedding pics were excellent. Beautiful bride and groom. great pictures of bridesmaid.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 3:54 PM
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There's got to be some happy medium in the animal-print clothing genre, some balance between trashy and geriatric that could work. Maybe leopard-print ballet flats? A leopard-print wrap-around dress in a non-leopardy color?


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 3:55 PM
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Wait, I do have a leopard print thing I wear and like -- a silk (maybe not silk, but not wooly) scarf that looks good over black. It's also kind of bronzy-goldy metallic.

Possibly I look like trailer trash with it on, I'm not good at that sort of judgment.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 3:58 PM
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Thundercats underroos. The underwear that's fun to wrowr!


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 4:00 PM
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Thanks will!

JM, I think maybe the key is more *expensive* animal prints, so they drape well and are a good fabric. But if I have money for expensive clothing (guarded by unicorns), why would I want it to be in animal prints? They're not that cute, except on little kids.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 4:01 PM
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81: I'd bet you don't. I have the hair that likes to do the 80s frizz anyway, so I have to struggle against the creeping 80mentalism anyway.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 4:02 PM
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Embrace it, Cala! Push real hard with the bustier and the frizzy hair and the animal prints and you'll fly right over the "omg she looks awful" line into "dayamn, that's fabulous" territory.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 4:12 PM
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I have to struggle against the creeping 80mentalism anyway

The taboo decade moves with time itself, leaving the once-shunned suddenly appealing. And because circles and places are not at the same stage, there are already some where your deepest aversion is hott.


Posted by: I don't pay | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 4:15 PM
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Now that's pwnd, JRoth.


Posted by: I don't pay | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 4:16 PM
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86: No, really, the 80s are always going to look pretty awful in retrospect. They looked pretty awful at the time, even.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 4:23 PM
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I am right there with you on the eighties frizz-hair problem. And on that note, boy, I hope the (blush) tweed jacket I just ordered doesn't make me look like a third-rate Heather.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 4:26 PM
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Most things look bad in most decades. Our recovery of looks from the past that we like is always selective, and focussed on the exemplary.


Posted by: I don't pay | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 4:33 PM
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Some of the neo-80s stuff hasn't been so bad, though.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 4:36 PM
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The 80s were not either awful. Annie Lennox, Billy Idol, and that brilliant Robert Palmer video. Grace Jones. That pastel blazer look from Miami Vice. Asymmetric haircuts. Prince. Who is getting on in years.


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 4:36 PM
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It's not blush-colored tweed. I was blushing over the prospect of bad-Heatherdom.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 4:38 PM
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94
Horrified that she would have to make a life with her cousin, the woman said she refused his sexual advances, which began on the wedding night and gradually escalated until he exposed himself to her in a public park one night and later undressed her to look at her naked body.

Sounds as if it could have been a lot worse.


Posted by: I don't pay | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 4:41 PM
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The 80s were not either awful

What about Patrick Nagel?


Posted by: slolernr | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 4:46 PM
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No worse than Peter Max, or Damien Hirst, come to think of it. Not my taste, but coherent and competently executed mass-production art.


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 4:53 PM
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80s fashion is totally back. My wife, who doesn't really remember the 80s (and when it was the 80s was living under a communist dictatorship anyway) is amused by my snorts of scorn and recognition when looking at pictures in fashion magazine.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 4:54 PM
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98

80s fashion is so back it's starting to fade back out.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 4:58 PM
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re: 98

Yeah, that's sort of true. Although all the nu-rave kids look like an odd cross between early 80s new-wave and circa 87/88 second-summer-of-love acid casualties.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 5:02 PM
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circa 87/88 second-summer-of-love

What? Missed that one entirely, even hearing about it.


Posted by: I don't pay | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 5:04 PM
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re: 100

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Summer_of_Love

I was 16 at the time. Some of my friends were heavily into it. I wasn't -- I was more into indie music and heavy rock at the time -- so it sort of passed me by. It wasn't until 91 or 92 that I regualrly went to clubs playing decent house and techno music.

But for the kids who were in that scene, it was a huge thing.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 5:07 PM
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So many smiley faces.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 5:22 PM
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The 1980s are not either back until I see college kids sporting the one-eye haircut. Flock of Seagulls version optional.


Posted by: slolernr | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 5:30 PM
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92 makes a good point. But Billy Idol gets zero credit, because he was just updating 70s punk. And 90's not true: the 60s and 70s looks were genuinely quite good, as were the profiles for the bourgie 50s.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 5:32 PM
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Oy. Guilty. It's funny, I didn't think of myself as trendy at the time, but some things just happened.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 5:32 PM
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100: What?!? New Order, dude. Manchester.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 5:34 PM
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One-offs I still like from the 1980s:

"Hold Me Now," Thompson Twins
"Always Something There to Remind Me," Naked Eyes

I may think of another.


Posted by: slolernr | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 5:36 PM
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"Life in a Northern Town" is a great song.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 5:48 PM
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Ogged, you have such totally cheesy taste in music sometimes.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 5:50 PM
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Cheese is yummy.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 5:52 PM
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One-offs I still like from the 1980s

And yo mama, of course.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 5:52 PM
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Re: the original post -- O-man. Dude. Circle-circle, dot-dot. You'll be fine.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 6:00 PM
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AWB -- as for nice shops in Manhattan, have you been to Shop at 105 Stanton? It's owned by an old college pal of mine, and she fills her store with really lovely things.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 6:16 PM
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Pop quiz! Name Billy Idol's band, before he went solo. No googling. The name of the band is the earliest use of the term that I know of.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 6:19 PM
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Geez, you people. Freaky middle-aged women looking to get their shwerve on are teh bomb. The Mrs. Robinson encounter I had in college is one of the very most memorable of my entire life.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 6:21 PM
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Generation X.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 6:21 PM
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Gen X. Obviously.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 6:22 PM
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I have a book, written in the early 60s, about the renegade youth of the time, called Generation X.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 6:23 PM
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Balls. What's the name of the book?


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 6:27 PM
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Wikipedia sez: The term was first used in a 1964 study of British youth by Jane Deverson. Deverson was asked by the editor of the magazine Woman's Own to conduct a series of interviews with teenagers of the time. The study revealed a generation of teenagers who "sleep together before they are married, don't believe in God, dislike the Queen, and don't respect parents," which was deemed unsuitable for the magazine because it was a new phenomenon. Deverson, in an attempt to save her research, worked with Hollywood correspondent Charles Hamblett to create a book about the study. Hamblett decided to name it Generation X.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 6:28 PM
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119:...? Generation X, obviously. Actually, I'm not sure if I have it anymore. IIRC it was British.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 6:29 PM
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120: Yes, that's the book. Actually, I don't own it anymore. It belonged to an old roommate.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 6:31 PM
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WHAT? Generation X was by Douglas Coupland, you people. Who is Canadian.

Jeez.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 6:32 PM
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121: Right you are! That was a trick question.

(Actually, I just read "called Generation X" as referring to the "youth of the time", not the book.)

The Wikipedia stuff suggests that the term we employ today was popularized by Douglas Coupland, who got it not from Billy Idol but from Paul Fussell's "Category X".


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 6:33 PM
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88: Jesus, thank you. They were ugly and the music sucked at the time, and they are ugly and the music sucks now*. However many years ago when I realized there was a 70's revival going on (which I quite enjoyed) I immediately began dreading the inevitable 80's revival, and here it is, god dammit. I wince seeing all these 20somethings with their stupid Izon collars turned up. Dear lord, let it pass quickly.

*yes, yes of course not ALL the music and design was bad, and I'm sure whatever your favorite is, is among the glorious exceptions, but I'm saying, the least-common-denominator popular culture in that decade sucked, hard.


Posted by: cerebrocrat | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 6:34 PM
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The Mrs. Robinson encounter I had in college is one of the very most memorable of my entire life.

Well, there are whole decades you don't remember.

There's a Mrs. Robinson figure named "Mrs. Robinson" in the Egyptian novel "Season of Migration to the North". Is Aliif here?


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 6:34 PM
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In 123's version of events, Coupland went back in time to publish his 1991 book before Billy Idol's 1977 band or Jane Deverson's 1964 book, but this is known to few.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 6:34 PM
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127: I wasn't talking about the band, and I somehow glossed Helpy-Chalk's reference to the book he was referencing being from the 60s. I am completely wrong. You may now crucify me.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 6:37 PM
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You can't crucify girls, B. It would be unseemly.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 6:38 PM
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Even when I admit that I'm completely wrong, some sexist rule has to come along to crap it all up. Jesus.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 6:39 PM
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It would be cool if Jane Deverson popped in about now to scold B and tell us where she got the name from.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 6:42 PM
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There was a great moment here a year or so ago when we were bitching about New Yorker cartoons, and someone purporting to be a New Yorker cartoonist (I assume truthfully) piped up.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 6:45 PM
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131: You people are SO MEAN.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 6:47 PM
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Not a sexist rule at all. Guys would be lurking under the cross looking up her skirt. That would be cruel.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 6:50 PM
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Dude, people looked up Jesus's skirt. You know, the one he's wearing in all those statues.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 6:51 PM
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Prince. Who is getting on in years.

Hey!


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 6:54 PM
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Thjat's what the homoerotic Italian painters would have you believe.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 6:54 PM
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Well, we all know he was actually naked. But my point is that I'm at least as good as Jesus, dammit.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 6:55 PM
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Yeah, one time B cured a ham.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 6:57 PM
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Ok. Crucify B, then. The homoerotic painter aren't going to be pleased, though. I see a more pre-Raphaelite style.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 6:58 PM
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I never cured a ham in my damn life. It's not kosher, for one.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 6:59 PM
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Just like her to deny her own miracles.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 7:00 PM
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Awesome. Can we start a cult of me right here, right now, and get some kind of tv show going where people send in gobs of cash? You've got the accent, Apo, right?


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 7:02 PM
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When I need it, sure.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 7:05 PM
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Nothing's standing in our way, then. I bet we could get Rah to sign on, too.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 7:05 PM
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You have to die first. Then you're parted out for relics. Then you perform miracles, and only last are you canonized. Catholics should know those things.

Saint Jadwiga the Queen was married at age 12, as I've already told you. Saints don't have to be virgins, so you're cool that way.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 7:06 PM
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Or wait, I mean McManly. How embarrassing. And I bet Froz would do anything for me.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 7:06 PM
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Ogged told me I was a saint just a few days ago! Miracles coming right up. Am perfectly willing to send fingernail clippings in the mail to anyone who asks.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 7:07 PM
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Froz's wife dropped by to visit today. She's in town for the American Dance Festival.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 7:08 PM
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Tell her hi, and if that was an attempt to embarrass me, it didn't work.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 7:08 PM
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if that was an attempt to embarrass me

Huh? No.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 7:09 PM
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Then you're parted out for relics.

Dibs on the holy booty.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 7:11 PM
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Awesome. Does she have the right kind of accent or wear waaaaaay too much makeup? See if she wants to sign on to the Bitch Televangelist Network.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 7:11 PM
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152: You'll get fingernail clippings and like it. Put a million in my bank account and I'll send you a pair of dirty underwear.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 7:12 PM
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That'll be extra, Apo.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 7:13 PM
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That'll be extra

You're telling me.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 7:16 PM
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After IA and I connected about Ottawa's Lord Elgin hotel, pronounced with a hard g, as in 'gin the gu'mnt, instead of with a soft, as in the word engine, like the good-sized Chicago satellite city, I got to wondering:

How is the name of the town where we're supposed to buy a house pronounced by the locals, on the assumption there are any?


Posted by: I don't pay | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 7:58 PM
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I never cured a ham in my damn life. It's not kosher, for one.

And the Catholic cares about this why exactly?


Posted by: Magpie | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 8:06 PM
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I'm the messiah for *all* the people, infidel.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 8:11 PM
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How is the name of the town where we're supposed to buy a house pronounced by the locals, on the assumption there are any?

Link:

The only Elgin in the United States to be pronounced with the hard "g" is located in Texas.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 8:53 PM
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147: Any thing. Any time. You know my rate.


Posted by: froz gobo | Link to this comment | 09-14-07 11:30 PM
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113: No, thanks, I will!

Tonight I totally made eyebabies with a cute beardy hipster at the Do Make Think Say concert, who returned them! And then his female friend showed up and cockblocked us. Not his gf. Sigh.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 09-15-07 12:12 AM
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Sorry, that's Do Make Say Think. I'm Becks-style, obv.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 09-15-07 12:26 AM
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The best sausage in the world is from Elgin, Texas. That's all I've been able to think about for as long as you all have been discussing Elgin.


Posted by: Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 09-15-07 7:12 AM
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The best sausage website in the world (one must assume) contains a strangely veiled reference to Matthew McConaughey's wang.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-15-07 7:39 AM
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Cheapest advertised house in Elgin Texas.

And not as good as the $7,000 N.D. house, except for the nearby sausage factory.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-15-07 7:48 AM
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It's not like you eat sausage fresh, for Christ's sake. Non-freshness is the essence of sausage (along with groundupness.)


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-15-07 7:50 AM
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You could easily live in Elgin, N.D. and have your sausages sent to you. $28,000 worth of sausage, based on what you saved by deciding to live in N.D.

You people moving to Elgin Texas are fools! Fools!


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-15-07 7:52 AM
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Why, you could hire a team of hard-drinking cowboys to bring it back to you in an old fashioned sausage drive, for that kind of money.

Are there steroids in North Dakota, John? I don't want to move there just to wake up one day to banner headlines reading "ELGIN AND JUICE"


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-15-07 8:00 AM
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No banner headlines in Elgin, don't worry.

Odds are the drugs of choice are booze and speed.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-15-07 8:09 AM
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Half of North Dakota is Russian Germans


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-15-07 8:13 AM
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So, re: Elgin, how do you people pronounced Elgin, normally?

With the 'g' sounding like the 'g' in 'grin' or like the 'j' in 'jet'?

And does it matter how people in the original Elgin [the Scottish one] pronounce it?


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 09-15-07 9:12 AM
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My default Elgin pronunciation is with the hard g, as in Elgin Marbles.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 09-15-07 9:17 AM
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re: 173

Yeah, same here.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 09-15-07 9:20 AM
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172, meet 160.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-15-07 9:23 AM
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re: 175

Yeah, I read that, but somehow it didn't register that it already answered my question.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 09-15-07 9:35 AM
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Nothing that the Scots do matters.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-15-07 9:41 AM
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Except David Hume.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 09-15-07 9:45 AM
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(Politely) OK, David Hume.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-15-07 9:47 AM
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This is where I list all the things invented by and/or theories discovered by Scots, isn't it? It's sort of a national cliché that we all do that whenever we i) feel threatened or ii) want to crow about it.

The list is long, put it that way.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 09-15-07 9:52 AM
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What about Sheena Easton?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-15-07 9:52 AM
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Scrooge McDuck made many important contributions to the financial sector.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 09-15-07 9:54 AM
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180: I'm kidding, of course, nattarGcM. I'm a Scotophile. Some of my, er, best friends are Scottish.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 09-15-07 9:55 AM
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180: Yeah, but how many ways can you put haggis and deep-fried Mars Bars on the same list?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-15-07 9:57 AM
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is long, put it that way

But I won't show it to you, for your own good....


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 09-15-07 9:57 AM
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re: 183

It's that sinophilic russian-german obsessed Emerson who needs taken down a peg or too. I also suspect that his scorn for Scottish achievements is like his disbelief in Wales.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 09-15-07 9:57 AM
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Does anyone actually believe in the existence of Wales? I have relatives who claim to be of Welsh ancestry, and I still don't believe in it. The bits of the 'language' I've seen quoted are self-evidently a put-on.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-15-07 10:00 AM
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I mean really, Emerson, saying that about the culture that brought us Auld Lang Syne.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-15-07 10:00 AM
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re: 184

You're forgetting haggis and curry sauce.* Food of the gods.

* yes, served together. Ideally, deep-fried haggis, though. Not the boiled/steamed kind.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 09-15-07 10:00 AM
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The Scots had the best Enlightenment. But haven't they been sliding down into darkness ever since?


Posted by: marcus | Link to this comment | 09-15-07 10:05 AM
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Scotland's signal contribution to civilization is the deep-fried Mars Bar.


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 09-15-07 10:08 AM
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I thought the death of God was a neat trick, too.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 09-15-07 10:09 AM
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The enormity of which pales in comparison to that of Irn-Bru.


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 09-15-07 10:10 AM
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I'm generally fond of both smoked salmon and steam engines.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-15-07 10:11 AM
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Why do you hate the Jews, LB?


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 09-15-07 10:16 AM
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194: even better when you combine the two!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-15-07 10:17 AM
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Mmmm, coal smoked salmon trains.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-15-07 10:17 AM
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I used to believe I was partly of Welsh ancestry, but when I researched it, I found out that I wasn't. Alpheus Dumbleton Hiams was of English descent. Further research revealed that Wales does not exist.

Dylan Thomas : Wales :: J R R Tolkein : Middle Earth or whatever the fuck he called it.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-15-07 10:25 AM
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re: 190

The major Scots contribution to philosophy pretty much ended with Hume, Smith, Hutcheson and Reid. But the scientific achievements are largely quite a bit later and some of the mathematical stuff -- the invention of logarithms, for example -- predates the Enlightenment by quite a bit. So, not really contiguous with the Enlightenment as usually understood.

But it our culinary achievements in the area of high-temperature oil-immersion for which we shall be remembered.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 09-15-07 10:25 AM
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And before anyone else brings it up: yes, Minnesota is in the Northwest, and Iowa south of Cedar Falls is in the South.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-15-07 10:26 AM
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And also: "Do you wear anything under that?"

And bonnie lochs that gie us auld lang shit atc.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-15-07 10:27 AM
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I always wished I knew something about my ancestry. All I get from my parents is that I'm maybe a quarter German (probably Jewish), and the rest is Scottish, French, Irish, blah, blah, blah. I ask, when and why did they come here? Why is our last name spelled so weird? What cities did they live in?

And my parents just point to each of their shut-in genealogically-obsessed siblings and say, "Listen, if you want to know, you can talk to Aunt X, but I don't recommend it. Genealogy will make you agoraphobic."


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 09-15-07 10:33 AM
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Genealogy research is harmless at best. One thing I realized is that even my grandparents were virtual strangers to me, and that anyone further back would be like a Martian to me (as I would be to them).

I have a friend whose grandfather showed up in Idaho from Texas and that's all anyone in the family ever knew about his past, which he refused ever to talk about. He knew somewhat more about his other ancestors, but not much more.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-15-07 10:39 AM
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re: 202

I don't know much about mine, either. Scottish on my father's side a couple of generations back but it's possible the family emigrated from Ulster in the 19th century [or not] and there's been at least one adoption in that family line in the past 100 years or so, so actual 'genetic' ancestry, I have no clue. I don't even know my great-grandparents names for certain. It's safe to say Irish and/or Scottish* into time immemorial, though.

http://www.nationaltrustnames.org.uk/Map.aspx?name=MCGRATTAN&year=1881&altyear=1998&country=GB&type=name

Most people I know are fairly comfortable not knowing. I think the urge towards genealogy is, understandably, more common in people who've emigrated from somewhere else.

* and given the patterns of population movement between the north of Ireland and western Scotland over the past 1500 years or so, pretty much certainly both.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 09-15-07 10:49 AM
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Emerson:

http://www.nationaltrustnames.org.uk/Map2.aspx?name=EMERSON&year=1998&altyear=1881&country=GB&type=name

Quite widely distributed in 1881.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 09-15-07 10:52 AM
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To my undying shame, two lines of my ancestry may have been partly Scottish. Apparently some Lucases fled to Holland after one of the Jacobite rebellions and changed their name to Lux.

I trust that no one will misuse this information I've been so brave as to share with you.

I will always be proud, however, of my brewer great-grandfather implicated in the killing of a prohibitionist. (Jury verdict: the prohibitionist had it coming to him.)


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-15-07 10:53 AM
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Where is everyone?


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-15-07 1:40 PM
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Workin'.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-15-07 1:41 PM
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Not in Elgin, that's for sure.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-15-07 1:41 PM
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Carnal desires, I guess. Perhaps with chili and beans.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-15-07 1:42 PM
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I used to believe I was partly of Welsh ancestry, but when I researched it, I found out that I wasn't.

Huh, me too. Turns out the Reeses I'm descended from were German (originally Ries).


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-15-07 2:23 PM
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More evidence that Wales = the present king of France.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-15-07 2:29 PM
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I just learned last night that my last name apparently means something like, "A Goat Farmer in X Small Town." At least, that's what this Polish guy told a friend of mine who asked.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 09-15-07 2:55 PM
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Is "goat farmer" a euphemism?


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-15-07 3:00 PM
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Don't make my tribe come over there and farm your goat, John.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 09-15-07 3:14 PM
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According to Crooked Timber, apparently the Welsh rugby mascot is a goat -- one goat for fifteen horny drunk brutes. The poor thing.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-15-07 3:17 PM
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You North Dakotans seem to have misunderstood the purpose of a mascot.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 09-15-07 3:20 PM
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Montanans. Next state over.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-15-07 3:27 PM
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