Re: Great Americans

1

They're Reds. Accept that they're not like us, and resolve to hear their children sob over the grave of their political power.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 12:56 PM
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Seeing as how "look at me!" is pretty much her whole schtick, presumably Ann will be first in line.


Posted by: DaveL | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 12:56 PM
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youtube is full of videos of people tasering each other for fun. It makes me wonder if there is a channel you can subscribe to there called "People doing stupid shit that can get you killed."


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 1:05 PM
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A fundraiser comes to mind: tasering Ann Althouse. All proceeds to go to building a mosque across the street from Peter King's house.


Posted by: Anderson | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 1:22 PM
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Also, saw this as Sullivan, and think it must relate somehow (esp. to King's comment):

Of the moral systems that protect individuals, one is concerned with preventing harm to the person and the other with reciprocity and fairness. Less familiar are the three systems that promote behaviors developed for strengthening the group. These are loyalty to the in-group, respect for authority and hierarchy, and a sense of purity or sanctity... They found that people who identified themselves as liberals attached great weight to the two moral systems protective of individuals -- those of not harming others and of doing as you would be done by. But liberals assigned much less importance to the three moral systems that protect the group, those of loyalty, respect for authority and purity... Extreme liberals, Dr. Haidt argues, attach almost no importance to the moral systems that protect the group. Because conservatives do give some weight to individual protections, they often have a better understanding of liberal views than liberals do of conservative attitudes, in his view.
Admittedly, mostly I just thought it was interesting.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 1:24 PM
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5 refers to a conception of liberal beliefs that exclude solidarity as a virtue, which is a recent development, though a strong one.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 1:25 PM
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5: attach no importance or find them actively harmful as they play out in practice?

Personally I find the definition of those three things as necessarily moral a bit repugnant.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 1:29 PM
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7--
what, you find it repugnant to have authoritarianism recycled as a form of morality?

me too. it offends my fastidious sense of purity.

my fastidious, and highly moral, sense of purity.


Posted by: kid bitzer | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 1:31 PM
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6: The language is stolen from the quotation Sullivan quoted. I didn't click through, so I'm guessing, but I think I would probably disagree with you about "liberal" and "solidarity."

7: That's why you're a godless heathen, Sifu.

I think part of the reason I find it interesting is that it's an updating of an old (or whatever 30 years counts as) claim about Democrats.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 1:32 PM
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9: well, that and the free love.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 1:33 PM
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Haidt describes purity, group loyalty and authority moral systems because they are based on innate mental modules that regulate behavior. His claim is descriptive: he's not evaluating the quality of these modules.

As a rhetorical tool, he recommends appealing to the three moral modules that liberals traditionally neglect, but this is mostly because they simply aren't going away.

For my part, I see the purity module hard at work in many parts of the left. The dietary rules that animal rights people and environmentalists promote get a big boost from the association of food and ritual purity.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 1:36 PM
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I recommend Haidt's essay "The Emotional Dog" as a fine piece of contemporary empirical research into moral psychology. I wrote some negative things about Haidt's work on my blog, but that was before I really read it.

Haidt is basically a straight Humean. I like it a lot.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 1:37 PM
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Haidt'd web page.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 1:39 PM
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Let me reconcile 6 and 7. I agree with Tweety that the three group-morality virtues are reqpugnant as written. Loyalty and respect for authority are important but should be earned; purity I can't get behind in any way. But American liberalism has more recently referred to a sense of the common good as hand-in-hand with individual liberty. We still have evidence of that in our great old New Deal relics like Social Security and an almost atavistic presence of solidarity as a moral virtue in the staggering remains of the labor movement. If these things took prouder place in political rhetoric, it would be impossible to conceive of conservative morality having a better understanding of reponsibility to the group.

After writing this out, I'm more convinced that the quoted argument is persuasive than I credit it. The lashing conservative gestures in defense of kin and tribe really pale next to the reflexive defense of the untrammeled individual, the one who made his money his self and shouldn't have to pay a dime of taxes on it.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 1:39 PM
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Haidt describes purity, group loyalty and authority moral systems because they are based on innate mental modules that regulate behavior. His claim is descriptive: he's not evaluating the quality of these modules.

As a rhetorical tool, he recommends appealing to the three moral modules that liberals traditionally neglect, but this is mostly because they simply aren't going away.

Oh. Hm.

The first paragraph of that I can get behind, sort of. The second one I kind of buy, too. But I don't like it, durnit. Not one bit.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 1:41 PM
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12--
well, yes; to suppose that any human system, whether modularized or cultural, that 'regulates behavior', is ipso facto a moral system, is to buy into a recognizably humean view of the nature of morality.

but this classification also makes, e.g., strong feelings about the right hem-length to wear this season, into moral judgements.

which may appeal to many readers of this blog, but strikes me as deeply obtuse about morality.


Posted by: kid bitzer | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 1:41 PM
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11 helps a lot. Thanks.

9.1, what do you mean? That solidarity isn't a liberal virtue, or shouldn't be?


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 1:41 PM
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People talking about what people shouldn't talk about pisses me off. The most logical thing would be just to talk about other fucking things.


Posted by: terpbball | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 1:43 PM
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People talking about what people shouldn't talk about pisses me off.

So, you mean they shouldn't talk about that?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 1:45 PM
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You can also group the moral modules together based on the way they evolved. Unlike other behavior modules, like the startle reaction, they evolved to support the adaptive elements of a tribal social structure.

Again, this is purely scientific and descriptive.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 1:45 PM
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All this fancy talk about "empiricism" and "moral psychology" is going to confuse Ann when she gets here ... or is confusing her, as she lurks. (Wave to Ann, everybody!)


Posted by: SEK | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 1:45 PM
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14--
"solidarity as a moral virtue in the staggering remains of the labor movement"

yup--
you can't scare me/i'm sticking with the union....
which side are you on?

even 'scab' may be, in connotation if not etymology, an attempt to treat the opposition as impure, untouchable.

yeah, i recognize it as a deeply human tribalism. i guess i just like my morality a bit more rationalized.


Posted by: kid bitzer | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 1:46 PM
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19--

now you're really going to piss him off, lb.


Posted by: kid bitzer | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 1:47 PM
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19- Oh, reading Ann again This is what we are paying attention to now. Oh, we shouldn't be so hard on ourselves. she doesn't actually do that. But I still don't like her.


Posted by: terpbball | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 1:49 PM
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20: right, right. Well, that does sound neat. I've actually argued that particular point before, so I probably shouldn't be arguing against it now. Probably nothing to be done about those authoritarian instincts except funneling them in less-harmful directions.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 1:49 PM
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That solidarity isn't a liberal virtue, or shouldn't be?

I think the "solidarity" that Haidt is talking about is more tribal and less inclusive than what I took you to be talking about ("common good").


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 1:52 PM
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andwew suwwivan is *wiwwy shwiww* today!

"What a pathetic excuse for a president. What a fucking disgrace this man and his journalistic lackeys are.
Excuse my language. But I can't take this any longer."

tell me about it.


Posted by: kid bitzer | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 1:53 PM
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But liberals assigned much less importance to the three moral systems that protect the group, those of loyalty compromising one's values and flouting social contracts in exchange for favors from someone higher in the social hierarchy, respect for authority surrendering one's responsibility to make moral judgments and difficult decisions for oneself and purity xenophobia/neophobia... Extreme liberals, Dr. Haidt argues, attach almost no importance to the moral systems that protect the group. Because conservatives do give some weight to individual protections, they often have a better understanding of liberal views than liberals do of conservative attitudes, in his view.


Posted by: Hamilton-Lovecraft | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 1:55 PM
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I believe taser conflates a number of more or less powerful and therefore more or less dangerous devices which transmit an electric current for the purposes of stunning, causing pain to, or otherwise incapacitating a human being. People may have had a very weak model applied to them for a very short period of time and found it not that bad, and then extrapolated that to thinking that no tasering experience is that bad.


Posted by: washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 2:02 PM
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26: I was misunderstanding the "moral module" meaning. But I still feel as if there's a missing module -- both from the description of the whole set and from liberal politics. "Reciprocity and fairness" is a little bloodless, though the outcome may be similar. There is a virtue for standing together in defense of fairness that doesn't seem comprehensible in this system. It's like fairness and loyalty in opposition to hierarchy. I like it, I think it's as real as any of the others, and I call it solidarity.

Maybe it's a secondary module, like purple.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 2:03 PM
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Well, you could say that liberalism has the solidarity-based economic agenda (e.g. on income inequality), but the tribalist energies are all centered around "culture war" type issues now, so liberals can't get the white male tribe gathered around the campfire to give them any credit for their economic agenda. One thing that's become true in America is that we have a lot of solidarity around individualist values (I don't need no help from nobody), and this has actually become tied to racial identity, because government programs got seen as a "minority" thing starting in perhaps the 60s. So, in conclusion, it's all twisted around, and so is this comment.


Posted by: marcus | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 2:08 PM
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"Reciprocity and fairness" is a little bloodless, though the outcome may be similar

Empathy?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 2:08 PM
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11: but the fact taht veganism and related oddities rely on these other sorts of moral reasoning are part of why they don't seem like part of the left-wing to me, but more as a regress, not unlike 'anti-prolife' or drug war. Its just that they're new that they're associated with counterculture; in 100 years that won't be the case.


Posted by: yoyo | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 2:09 PM
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I miss the days when liberals were all supposed to be crypto-commies who only wanted to protect the group and couldn't conceive of individual rights the way conservatives could.


Posted by: DS | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 2:10 PM
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35

also campus speech/sex codes would be examples of that


Posted by: yoyo | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 2:11 PM
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Also, I really love Wrongshore's comments at 14 and 30.

Many other countries have conceptions of solidarity that relate to mutual economic support, one can see this in the international polling data. The U.S. really stands out there as a country with rather socially Darwinist values, and again I would say that is part of our collective identity.

Moore's "Sicko" is actually a movie about how we've lost the value of solidarity, as evidenced in our health care policies.


Posted by: marcus | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 2:12 PM
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34: authoritarian individualism is an oxymoron that'll only take you so far.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 2:12 PM
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35: rights were, before that, used by the left-wing during the enlightenment. each side is always trying to subvert the other's frames, or even institutions.


Posted by: yoyo | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 2:14 PM
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32: Empathy is what underlies the "harm to others" module.

Union solidarity seems like a straightforward interaction between instincts for group loyalty and fairness.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 2:16 PM
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34: Is the "commies don't respect individual rights" meme an early example of right wing projection?


Posted by: Hamilton-Lovecraft | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 2:16 PM
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yoyo is now replying to his own comments, I think that's great.

Haidt's "Emotional Dog" article is great:

http://faculty.virginia.edu/haidtlab/articles/haidt.emotionaldog.manuscript.pdf

People should read it, especially Ogged or other people with posting privileges should read it, as it contains numerous juicy topics for potential future threads.


Posted by: marcus | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 2:17 PM
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Actually, on reading that article in more detail (i.e. finishing it), a lot of the later parts are a little boring and a review of stuff you may already know if you're familiar with moral intuitionism. But it really starts off with a bang.


Posted by: marcus | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 2:22 PM
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Most of my comments are in repsonse to myself. I find myself ridiculously interesting.
40: i wouldn't think so. a lot of liberal programs infringe on rights, its just to a weak extent, and outwieghed by other benefits. the key element is protraying the rights of hte privileged as prototypical.
:


Posted by: yoyo | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 2:22 PM
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Conservatives sure do respect the authority of scientists.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 2:22 PM
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By following reason instead of the gut instincts and hallowed traditions of the tribe, scientists show themselves to be opposed to in-group solidarity and in general traitors to decent values.


Posted by: marcus | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 2:24 PM
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I don't think it takes more than slight inclinations toward one or the other in minority of the population to create group norms. These are probably a lot weaker than genetic gender norms from the sexes, for example.


Posted by: yoyo | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 2:26 PM
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I don't think Islam is that big a threat to us here in the U.S., but the Europeans have reason to be scared. If you think 20% of Europe as Muslim in 2050 is good for women and gays and puppy dogs, you're wrong.


Posted by: bjk | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 2:30 PM
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have you done the evolutionary game theory models for that, yoyo?


Posted by: marcus | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 2:31 PM
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47 is hilarious. Did this post get linked from someplace loony?

Ogged, I know you hate puppy dogs and (most) women (on dating sites), but you seem pretty gay friendly. Thoughts?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 2:33 PM
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what brought up islam? I don't think islam is good for anyone. its more worthy of being stamped out than xianity.


Posted by: yoyo | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 2:33 PM
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47: I don't think Islam Popery is that big a threat to us here in the U.S. on the Continent, but the Europeans Americans have reason to be scared. If you think 20% of Europe America as Muslim Papist in 2050 1850 is good for women and gays and puppy dogs, you're wrong.

Yes, it's exactly the same bullshit.


Posted by: DS | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 2:34 PM
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40: probably, come to think of it...


Posted by: DS | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 2:35 PM
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Boy I wish I had time to comment on this thread.


Posted by: cerebrocrat | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 2:37 PM
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Europe's less than 5% Muslim today...hard to get from there to 20% in one generation.


Posted by: marcus | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 2:38 PM
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In Muslim America, women will cook dog stew while the gays suck my cock. Join me!


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 2:38 PM
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55: And this will differ from the status quo how?


Posted by: DaveL | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 2:40 PM
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54: You're making the mistake of thinking of Muslims as humans, marcus. They way I understand it they multiply like those body-snatcher things with the pods in that movie.


Posted by: DS | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 2:41 PM
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Don't eat the loco moco, folks.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 2:43 PM
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Conservatives sure do respect the authority of scientists.

I assume that's meant to be sarcastic, but I bet it's sort of true that conservatives show more respect for an idea because a science PhD (and probably other fields as well) asserts it than liberals do. Maybe less so now.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 2:43 PM
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57: It's not uncommon to see a Muslim woman popping out glistening new babies from under her Burqa as she walks down the street, the adorable little freedom-haters all lined up like Ms. Pac Man run backwards.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 2:44 PM
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Kimchee goes better with dog stew than gravy, really.


Posted by: DaveL | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 2:44 PM
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60: Deirdre, would you get that please?


Posted by: DaveL | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 2:45 PM
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I don't have any problem with respecting authority or loyalty whatsoever. What I have a problem with is *blind* respect for authority or blind loyalty. Especially when they contradict or interfere with the other values--fairness, reciprocity, loyalty to oh, say, the authority of the Constitution, respect for international opinion, respect for the authority of experts (like maybe scientists), respect for the concept of fairness and equality under the law. You know, little shit like that.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 2:46 PM
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From Haidt's home page:

Morality....binds people together into teams that seek victory, not truth.

Exactly. Truth-seekers like scientists are by definition not part of the team. Solidaristic morality will have no truck with them. Unless they confine themselves to using their scientific superpowers to invent cool new weapons for the team.


Posted by: marcus | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 2:53 PM
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You're all right. A big Muslim population in Europe or the US isn't going to be any big problem. And I have complete faith that this little dustup in Iraq can be solved with a little bit of firm diplomacy. Wolfowitz will be vindicated, you just watch. You'd have to be a racist not to expect democracy to flourish among Muslims, if they're just given a chance. It's the soft bigotry of low expectations.


Posted by: bjk | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 3:09 PM
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I bet it's sort of true that conservatives show more respect for an idea because a science PhD (and probably other fields as well) asserts it than liberals do.

Sure--as long as the idea has nothing to do with the PhD's actual area of expertise.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 3:10 PM
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65: Um, the Muslims didn't cause the little dustup in Iraq, my friend. That was the fundie Christian types.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 3:11 PM
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Sure--as long as the idea has nothing to do with the PhD's actual area of expertise.

B, you could be rich—house-buyingly rich—if you would just come out against global warming.

"I'm Dr. B., and this is all hooey!" [cashes check]


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 3:13 PM
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65: I believe pastrami sandwiches are filling but carry a slight risk of causing indigestion if you eat too many of them. I also believe crack cocaine is "a nutritious part of this complete breakfast." Can you identify the potential problem with this attempt at cleverly sarcastic juxtaposition?

66: PhD's are out-of-touch academic elites unless they happen to agree with whatever the conservative is saying, in which case they're unassailable authorities and you're crazy to disagree with them. Simple.


Posted by: DS | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 3:15 PM
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68: Actually! I'm reading "Cadillac Desert," the thesis of which is that basically the west is grossly overpopulated because we have NO REAL WATER (you should read it, btw; there's a brief section that'll explain why I object to Okie-bashing, plus it's an enjoyable bit of polemic/history), and it's making me think, "hey, global warming! More rain! No skin off my burnt nose."

So, hmmmmmmmmm.......


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 3:16 PM
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70: 'cept global warming means less rain for the west, I think. So you'd have to move north.


Posted by: DS | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 3:17 PM
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why I object to Okie-bashing

If it was good enough for Woody Guthrie it's good enough for me.


Posted by: slolernr | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 3:17 PM
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Sure. And if the Sunni and Shia can't get along, what are the chances Christians and Muslims will live in harmony? Zero. I guarantee it. You can laugh, but it doesn't change anything. People don't change, not too much.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/localnews/stories/091707dnmetbrotherhood.35ce2b6.html


Posted by: bjk | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 3:18 PM
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71: That's cool, I like Seattle better, to tell you the truth.

Can you identify the potential problem with this attempt at cleverly sarcastic juxtaposition?

Of *course* you'd like crack, you brown person you?

Do I win?


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 3:19 PM
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74: Damn, I guess you do win. Shit.


Posted by: DS | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 3:20 PM
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what are the chances Christians and Muslims will live in harmony?

Well, judging by my relationship with Ogged....


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 3:20 PM
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75: Whoo! Free crack for me!


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 3:21 PM
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18: The most logical thing would be just to talk about other fucking things.

Because stupid interpretations of evolutionary psychology are common fodder around here, I was gong to link the NYT Haidt-related article when it was posted yesterday.

I repented for exactly the reason you describe - my only contribution was going to be how little worthy of comment the article was, and how nobody should read it.

But when it comes to stupid evolutionary ideas, resistance is futile. This must be because espousing such ideas gave people a reproductive advantage on the veldt.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 3:23 PM
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Actually! I'm reading "Cadillac Desert,"

Also read the book it's constantly referring to, and quotes long sections from: Beyond the Hundredth Meridian, by Wallace Stegner.


Posted by: I don't pay | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 3:24 PM
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73: what are the chances Christians and Muslims will live in harmony? Zero. I guarantee it.

If the Ottoman Empire could figure out religious tolerance for several centuries, I think the modern West has a shot at it. Of course that means discounting the views of a certain sort of person.


Posted by: DS | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 3:26 PM
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Actually, B, if you really want to be house-buyingly wealthy, you need only come out against feminism. Come up with a reasonably credible conversion narrative, fire off a couple of polemics, then hit the talk-show circuit to denounce the errors of your former ways.


Posted by: Invisible Adjunct | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 3:27 PM
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79: Nah, I'm going to read The Great Thirst, and that will conclude my reading in Western water issues for the foreseeable future. But thanks for the recommendation.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 3:28 PM
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73: You can laugh, but it doesn't change anything.

Hmmm. Nonetheless, I laugh.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 3:30 PM
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81: Well, I *did* leave academia and now I'm a stay-home mom, so it wouldn't be that hard....


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 3:30 PM
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Mmmm, some pastry and a tall glass of water sounds really good.


Posted by: DaveL | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 3:30 PM
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83: At least the Clash-of-Civilizations era is providing us all with free masterclasses in nutpicking.


Posted by: DS | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 3:31 PM
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We live in a republic, not an empire. The EU might be a different case, though.


Posted by: bjk | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 3:31 PM
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No, no, Dave, now we're holding out for crack.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 3:32 PM
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"How I Learned to Stop Worrying About the Patriarchy and Love the Military-Industrial Complex and the Koi Ponds it Supports"? Punch it up a little and you're good to go.


Posted by: DaveL | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 3:32 PM
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free masterclasses in nutpicking

Which is easier if you shave your balls!

But I still ain't gonna do it!


Posted by: DaveL | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 3:33 PM
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Except for the Canadians. But they're not fully human, especially the Ontarians.


Posted by: bjk@km.com | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 3:38 PM
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89: Alas, it doesn't support the koi pond! We're going to have to move to some kind of unkoi'd residence soon.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 3:39 PM
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92: Sucks for you, but think how happy Heebie will be! But good luck. Moving is no fun.


Posted by: DaveL | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 3:43 PM
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I do think that there was a conservative adulation of a certain kind of science and engineers especially. Physicists were acceptable when they were creating bombs. I bet that the fact that so much technology was originally developed for the military meant that it wasn't exactly associated liberals. I mean, now, techies go to work in jeans and grungy t-shirts, but IBM used to be infamous for its dress code, and I doubt that EDS was significantly less straight-laced.


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 3:43 PM
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stupid evolutionary ideas, resistance is futile.

The latest incarnation of trite moralism, argued from authority. It'll last until the next version.


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 3:45 PM
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59: "Maybe less so now."

Maybe? The past six years have seen an enormous assault on politically inconvenient science by the right-wing.

what are the chances Christians and Muslims will live in harmony?

Perhaps you could look to Michigan and its enormous Muslim population for an answer to that. I'm sure the pogroms and ethnic cleansing will stop soon enough though.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 3:49 PM
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73 was not me. I dont read filth like the DMN anymore.

And cites and linking belong to the reality-based evidentiary community, and I rely on intuition, my inner organs,and the voices in my head.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 3:51 PM
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Perhaps you could look to Michigan and its enormous Muslim population for an answer to that.

Technically a lot of the middle eastern population in Michigan is Caldean, which is Christian.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 3:52 PM
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Unique secluded home on half-acre lot; swimming pool and deck, only $56,000.

House has sewer, water, AND electricity.

Not as cheap as Elgin, but you get trees and shit.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 3:54 PM
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Heebie should call herself Nitty Picky.

Christian, Muslim, big whoop.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 3:55 PM
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IBM used to be infamous for its dress code

Also for only hiring very tall salesmen -- Ross Perot was an anomaly. They've loosened up on the height requirement, but the generation of IBM employees now retiring or recently retired were bizarrely tall on average.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 4:01 PM
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Awesome house in 99, but under 1,000 square feet? When it *snows*? We'd be driving each other crazy in no time.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 4:02 PM
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Not as cheap as Elgin, but you get trees and shit.

Can I have the house with just the trees?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 4:02 PM
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Look, it's pretty obvious that the Muslims are going to research the technology that gives them the Saracen Fighter and then we're going to be screwed.

--
You know, until relatively recently, being assigned to the America consulate in Casablanca was a prime position for a young diplomat. Nice area, friendly people, your wife could enjoy the markets and the culture. Recently, that's all changed, but here's the thing, it's not like Morocco just recently became Muslim.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 4:02 PM
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LB does not understand what makes green things green.


Posted by: DaveL | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 4:03 PM
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Many big-city neighborhoods have a substantial Muslim presence, now. My kids have gone to school with substantial numbers at every level except the selective high school they belong to now, where the numbers are smaller but there is still a preference. Assyrians and Chaldeans live in my neighborhood too, alongside the Muslims. They use a lot of the same groceries. And the girls ululate, riding around on the back deck of convertibles. America!


Posted by: I don't pay | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 4:05 PM
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American Exodus is an interesting book on Okies. I picked up The Great Thirst once, but it was too heavy to carry.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 4:06 PM
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Assyrians

I understand the football team's name has been changed to the Cohorts; purple and gold uniforms.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 4:07 PM
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Am I too late to tell bjk that I'm going to behead him? Right after I take over America, I mean.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 4:08 PM
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At the rate you're going you're certainly not going to outbreed him.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 4:09 PM
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105: chlorophyll?


Posted by: Epoch | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 4:09 PM
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My grocer is selling 'helal' chicken.

Next to the pork.

Stocked by a Hispanic worker.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 4:10 PM
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On-topic, if that's OK, I liked Haidt's article. The ev-psych part is dispensable, but the article makes it intelligible why some people think the way they do, and why arguing with them is so frustrating.

But it's more than that. Valuing solidarity and respect at zero, and purity negatively, can lead to a pretty crass, predatory society. For example, I often find contemporary society unbearably cheesy and crass, and it's not really possible to express that kind of idea strictly in terms of fairness and harm. Most cultural criticism and a lot of environmentalism require some additional principles.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 4:11 PM
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Hell-al meats!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 4:11 PM
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112: It's the end of America as we know it!!! Ayiiieee!!!


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 4:12 PM
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102: it's possible to go outdoors when it snows.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 4:12 PM
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107: Thanks for the reference.

116: No, it isn't. I've had enough of that shit, man.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 4:13 PM
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Ayiiieee!!!

No, you mean, "ul-ul-ul-ul-ul-"ate.

Or however you'd spell it. Ogged knows.


Posted by: slolernr | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 4:14 PM
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You ARE high-maintenance, B. Reality is too thorny for your grand personality.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 4:15 PM
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I'm not speaking to you, you Okie hater.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 4:15 PM
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The bot is awesome. It's like you're all living in my computer now.

It might be less roomy than your mother's basement, though.


Posted by: slolernr | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 4:15 PM
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America's premier Okie blogger, Bartcop, in an Okie-hater.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 4:16 PM
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is


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 4:16 PM
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109: What makes it funny is that ogged can't behead anyone. His hands are too small to palm the scimitar.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 4:16 PM
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120 to 118. I'm still speaking to Emerson, even though the problem isn't thorns: it's cold.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 4:16 PM
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If you're into double posting, you can subscribe more than once to every post!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 4:17 PM
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Okie hater.

I don't hate Okies. You amuse me.


Posted by: slolernr | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 4:17 PM
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Or maybe the bot's just broken.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 4:18 PM
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No, Sifu, you're definitely subscribed twice to this thread.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 4:18 PM
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Beheading the unbeliever with swim goggles is a slow and bloody process, requiring the unwavering focus of Ogged's desert people. Or small-chlorinated-body-of-water people, whichever.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 4:19 PM
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I like small houses, but living in one does sort of require that you get along with your family most of the time.


Posted by: DaveL | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 4:19 PM
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Or maybe the bot's just broken.

No, I believe I have found you can get the double-posting thing if (a) you subscribe to posts plus you subscribe to a given post or (b) you accidentally subscribe under two different IM accounts.


Posted by: slolernr | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 4:19 PM
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Which really shouldn't happen.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 4:19 PM
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So having unsubscribed from the post, I now get nothing.

I'm still willing to believe user error, but you're going to have to convince me.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 4:21 PM
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Try now. You'll have to unsubscribe and resubscribe. There were two processes running.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 4:24 PM
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But I liked the double posting!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 4:25 PM
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Daisy Duke here is very sensitive.

Miranda Lambert is Texan, not Okie, but she's a fine role model for cute chicks sittin' with a shotgun and a sixpack, waitin' for their no-good boyfriend to come home. (Paging Gswift for Feminism and the Second Amendment.)


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 4:28 PM
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I don't think it's predominantly cold, bwt, but light. Being outside in the snow is a bright environment, whatever else it is. And I saw a study from Canada about Vitamin D deficiency being a huge problem, especially now that we avoid sun so often. We still get too much on our faces and not enough anywhere else. Northern cities, where you're inside all the time in the winter, can be murder. I think everybody feels this to some extent when cooped up—I never felt it as a boy, when I played outside in the snow.


Posted by: I don't pay | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 4:29 PM
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Sifu ridicules me, but the simplest tasks are too much for him.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 4:29 PM
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[i]Sifu ridicules me[i]/

I kid because I love, John.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 4:30 PM
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The problem here last winter was no snow. When it finally snowed I went on three-mile walk.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 4:30 PM
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For example, that should be "/i". And the [ stands for the sign-which-cannot-be named.

Not "i/" literally; the " marks bracket the intended substitution.

In other words:

/i

should replace:

i/
.

It's rough being an HTML geek. People depend on you, but there's no love.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 4:34 PM
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We didn't have much here either: no heavy shoveling, no chairs, and it was warm a lot. Probably in Ontario, the inhabited part, too.


Posted by: I don't pay | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 4:34 PM
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Her Playmate good looks clash with her tough image, but maybe they were acquired naturally.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 4:36 PM
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Got a link, John?


Posted by: I don't pay | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 4:37 PM
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When it finally snowed I went on three-mile walk.

Whatever. I went on an 8 mile bike ride this morning, and I'll ride another 6 miles in a bit when I go pick up PK at school. Much better than trudging through damn snow.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 4:38 PM
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Her Playmate good looks clash with her tough image, but maybe they were acquired naturally.

I'm being sabotaged by dark forces.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 4:38 PM
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I was depressed up in Michigan, that's for damn sure. Zero sunlight and all that.

Her Playmate good looks clash with her tough image, but maybe they were acquired naturally.

Thanks, John! I think you have playmate good looks, too. And you're like a size zero to boot.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 4:39 PM
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147: I look at that forehead and immediately think implants.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 4:40 PM
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I bask in the warmth of your admiration.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 4:41 PM
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Forehead implants?

Sly Stallone has calf implants. They're allowed in body-building, believe it or not.

But I have awesome natural calves. My finest feature for theose who don't fancy beerguts.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 4:43 PM
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Calf photos!


Posted by: slolernr | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 4:44 PM
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Forehead implants?

Absolutely. She'd look great with a set of these.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 4:44 PM
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I'll phone up my calf photographer. His schedule is packed, though. A lot of people need calf photos.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 4:46 PM
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Hey, where'd bjk go? I didn't get any pastry. And I was waiting for him(?) to inform us that "greens are like watermelons" or somesuch classic.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 4:46 PM
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Back on topic, sort of: I don't understand how people can gush about their trip to the offices of The New York Sun and still consider themselves liberal. I mean, what will she have to do to convince herself she isn't what she thinks she is?


Posted by: SEK | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 4:47 PM
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Daisy Dukes don't work for wading through the snow, especially when Pa couldn't afford shoes for you after the tobacco crop went bust.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 4:47 PM
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after the tobacco crop went bust

because of liberal meddling.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 4:49 PM
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Where does she say she's a liberal?


Posted by: slolernr | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 4:49 PM
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159: Everywhere, and all the time. Let me find you some links.


Posted by: SEK | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 4:50 PM
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Everywhere, and all the time

Curse you, I am now stuck with "Life in the Fast Lane."


Posted by: slolernr | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 4:51 PM
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Isn't there soe sort of rule against going back on topic? I want to ridicule our resident Okie.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 4:52 PM
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Fuck you, now I am too. Some things are not for sharing. That said, searching her site for "liberal," "vote for," and "feminism" is a slow ride.


Posted by: SEK | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 4:52 PM
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slow ride

You're not a nice person.


Posted by: slolernr | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 4:53 PM
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Take it easy, slol.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 4:54 PM
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It's really kind of creepy how you all have ready access to a very unpleasant part of my brain.


Posted by: slolernr | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 4:54 PM
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163: use radar, love.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 4:54 PM
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A-and the bot is broken.


Posted by: slolernr | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 4:55 PM
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Wow, the bot broke. It must not like classic rock.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 4:55 PM
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Alright, here she identifies herself as a "Liberal Hawk" the evil leftists are trying to force from the Democratic Party.


Posted by: SEK | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 4:55 PM
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It's only rock and roll, but I like it.


Posted by: slolernr | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 4:56 PM
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7 Personally I find the definition of those three things as necessarily moral a bit repugnant.

I had a problem with that as well. In reading the source article, another opinion in regards to the group morals they are not general moral virtues but specific ideological commitments or values," Dr. Jost said.

That sounds better to me. And I don't understand Haidt's assertion Because conservatives do give some weight to individual protections, they often have a better understanding of liberal views than liberals do of conservative attitudes, in his view.

What do morals have to do with understanding opponents' ideology?


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 4:56 PM
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Hey look! The boys are back in town!


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 4:56 PM
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Yeah, but she concludes by calling herself a centrist.


Posted by: slolernr | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 4:57 PM
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The boys are back

Are we not men?


Posted by: slolernr | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 4:58 PM
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You can't always get what you want, slol.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 4:59 PM
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At TJ's the other day, they were playing Ted Nugent. It was hilarious--in every aisle, you could hear people saying to each other "wait a minute, are they really playing Ted Nugent?!?"


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 4:59 PM
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Crap, I linked to the comment, it went to the page:

First of all, anyone familiar with this blog should know I voted for Al Gore in 2000. Second, plenty of Democrats don't like Kerry! Third, there used to be something called a "Liberal Hawk." Democrats have tried to oust anyone with this description from their party. E.g., Lieberman. It's a huge problme. Fourth, the thing about the goggles is too stupid to keep responding to and does not represent me generally abusing of the mistreatment of criminals. You're just looking for ways to attack me and push me out of the party. You want it to become an antiwar, leftist party. I don't.


Posted by: SEK | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 5:00 PM
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You can't always get what you want

If it rains, I don't care. Don't make no difference to me.


Posted by: slolernr | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 5:01 PM
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The boys are back

in black.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 5:01 PM
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172: I think that Haidt is right. A lot of liberal descriptions of conservatives don't go much beyond calling them haters and bigots.

Historically, most of the progress of the last 500 years comes from getting away from the loyalty-purity-respect values in favor of fairness-benefit values. But LPR values never disappeared, and I don't actually think that they should be valued at zero or entirely negatively.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 5:02 PM
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Abuse of mistreatment is a serious problem, though.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 5:02 PM
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You want it to become an antiwar, leftist party
Technically, she's claiming to be a Democrat, not a liberal.


Posted by: slolernr | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 5:02 PM
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Abuse of mistreatment is a serious problem

But there's a 12-step program. Also, MADAM.


Posted by: slolernr | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 5:03 PM
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What I'm thinking about may be mere rhetoric: it's part of her "I voted for every Democratic candidate since 1972" and "I know what real feminism is" shtick. But the fact that, on some level, she believes it despite all evidence to the contrary flabbergasts me.


Posted by: SEK | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 5:03 PM
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If it rains, I don't care. Don't make no difference to me.

This one was the most obnoxious because I had to sing it for awhile to figure out what song it was.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 5:03 PM
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But but but, she belongs to the "Liberal Hawks"! She has the jacket and spent 20 years learning how to knife-fight to the beat!


Posted by: SEK | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 5:05 PM
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Aw, pretty momma.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 5:06 PM
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I really hate this on-topic shit. I'm willing to talk about B or Haidt, either one. Althouse is played.

I'm not threatening anyone -- yet. But SEK, you already have a price on your hear in the Big Easy, no? It doesn't seem to me that you need more enemies.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 5:06 PM
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This one was the most obnoxious

I live to serve.


Posted by: slolernr | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 5:06 PM
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"head". Dark forces are sabotaging me.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 5:06 PM
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She has the jacket and spent 20 years learning how to knife-fight to the beat

Krup you, SEK.


Posted by: slolernr | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 5:07 PM
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You meant to say that SEK has a price on his hear in the Big Head, I assume.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 5:08 PM
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a price on your hear

Ha! They can't take what I don't have from me.


Posted by: SEK | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 5:08 PM
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Shorter 189: Don't bring me down.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 5:08 PM
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186: Are you implying that you wouldn't like to hear some funky Dixieland, heebie?


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 5:08 PM
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No, no, they can't take that away, from you.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 5:09 PM
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I have only ever listened to the Doobie Brothers in Taiwan in 1983. It was on heavy rotation at my favorite coffee shop, especially that song. I heard it dozens of times.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 5:09 PM
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198: You probably only heard it once, it just felt like dozens of times.

Kind of like the latter two-thirds or so of "Hey Jude" with that endless "na na na na" stuff, or the last 57 minutes of "Layla".


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 5:11 PM
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I've got a funky Dixie Cup. If I hold it to my ear I can hear the ocean. It's kinda the same thing.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 5:11 PM
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pretty momma

I'm sure that in the song it's "mama."


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 5:11 PM
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Well, it sounds like "momma."


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 5:12 PM
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200: They say that shaving helps with the hygeine. I wouldn't know.


Posted by: DaveL | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 5:12 PM
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No, I liked the song then. I also heard Blondie's "The Tide is High" dozens of times, and whgen I say dozens, I probably mean hundreds.

Western man turns into a beast when he goes to the exotic tropical countries.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 5:13 PM
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Don't bring me down.

I still need to know what "Grooosss" is.


Posted by: slolernr | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 5:13 PM
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I wanna hear some fucking Dixieland.
Pretty mama, please take me by the hand.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 5:13 PM
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205: a dozen dozen dozen.


Posted by: DaveL | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 5:13 PM
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There's a secret message in Stairway to Heaven.

If you listen really hard
The tune will come to you at last
MARIJUANA WHAT A DRUUUUGGGG

Someone told me this when I was a lower-case G, and I propagated it for years.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 5:14 PM
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That thread has transformed DaveL into a One-Stop All-Purpose Shaving Center.


Posted by: SEK | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 5:14 PM
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I've got a funky Dixie Cup. If I hold it to my ear I can hear the ocean. It's kinda the same thing.

Knock knock.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 5:14 PM
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Western man turns into a beast when he goes to the exotic tropical countries.

Bangkok, oriental city. The city don't know what the city is getting.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 5:14 PM
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Cosmic, Heebie.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 5:15 PM
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Someone told me this when I was a lower-case G, and I propagated it for years.

If you were from where I'm from, then you would know.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 5:15 PM
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a dozen dozen dozen.

Forever-ever?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 5:15 PM
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Cosmic, Heebie.

Cosmic Heebie, oh the time has come -- and you know that you're the only one to say O.K.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 5:16 PM
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209: After watching in awe yesterday, I decided I had to change my way of thinking. Obviously I'm not going to start shaving (or waxing) my nether regions, so the best I can do is to comment about it all the time.


Posted by: DaveL | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 5:17 PM
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I'm motoring! What's my price for flight?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 5:17 PM
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Apo had a good link about this topic the other day.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 5:18 PM
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Knock knock

Who's there?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 5:18 PM
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217: You must bring B....a new carp pond.


Posted by: DaveL | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 5:18 PM
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216: I just shaved mine today. The wind on my balls when I went to Albertson's was liberating.


Posted by: SEK | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 5:19 PM
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Heeb, you're a candle in the window on a cold dark winter's night.


Posted by: slolernr | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 5:19 PM
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Who's there?

Balls wax.


Posted by: SEK | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 5:20 PM
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218: You wouldn't get this from any other guy, no.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 5:20 PM
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221: But then a floor manager yelled at you for standing in front of the freezer case with your fly open. Am I right?


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 5:20 PM
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If she buys that house B. can put carp in the pool.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 5:21 PM
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225: I didn't even make it to the freezer.


Posted by: SEK | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 5:21 PM
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Sadly, it appears that the UW Daily's Swell American of the Week feature, from which this post title was obviously ripped off, is no more.


Posted by: DaveL | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 5:22 PM
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229

227: Did you just tell the guy that you got a fever of 103?


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 5:23 PM
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230

a floor manager yelled at you

"Music happen to be the food of love," SEK said.


Posted by: slolernr | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 5:23 PM
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231

Who's there?\

The


224: Oh noes! I've been stumprolled!


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 5:24 PM
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232

230: Or maybe "it was the heat of the moment."


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 5:24 PM
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230: I think they were expecting a dreadlocks camp.


Posted by: SEK | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 5:25 PM
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232: I tried to explain they were too hot to handle, too cold to hold.


Posted by: SEK | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 5:27 PM
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231: Immaculate molars, baby.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 5:27 PM
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I hope you didn't let this incident a breaka your stride, SEK.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 5:30 PM
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Damn it, I can't think of any song that mentions molars. You broke the thread, Ned.


Posted by: SEK | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 5:30 PM
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too hot to handle, too cold to hold

SEK: "Well, I'm upper, upper class; high society."


Posted by: slolernr | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 5:31 PM
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239

I can't think of any song that mentions molars

Aw, come on. I bet you thrill when you drill a bicuspid.


Posted by: slolernr | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 5:32 PM
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240

239: Your love is like bad medicine.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 5:34 PM
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Thanks for the save, slol. I was prepared to pay twenty.


Posted by: SEK | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 5:34 PM
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SEK is gay?


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 5:36 PM
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Slol is the wind beneath SEK's wings.

(But I'm not sure that slol ever knew that)


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 5:36 PM
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Great, now I want to dignify, analyze and terrorize Ned.


Posted by: SEK | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 5:36 PM
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(Mostly terrorize.)


Posted by: SEK | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 5:37 PM
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I think what Ned is saying is that he wants SE(K)'s girl.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 5:37 PM
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I'll do almost anything that you want me to.


Posted by: slolernr | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 5:37 PM
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I can't terrorize, I see terror in your eyes. As we go up, we go down.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 5:38 PM
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246: I should have known that all the cards were coming from the bottom of the pack. And if I'd known what she was dealing out, I'd have dealt it back.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 5:38 PM
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Even as a child, I knew something was up in that song.


Posted by: SEK | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 5:38 PM
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he wants SE(K)'s girl.

Ya know, I never thought of the reading of Jesse's girl that you all propounded the other day. But now it's so obvious.


Posted by: slolernr | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 5:39 PM
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You were born a gamblin' man, Ned.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 5:39 PM
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Keep your hands off my baby, Ned.


Posted by: SEK | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 5:40 PM
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She'll take a tumble on you; roll you like you were dice.


Posted by: slolernr | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 5:42 PM
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I'm just trying to hold on to my shrinking paradise.


Posted by: SEK | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 5:43 PM
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Maybe I didn't make myself clear in 240.

Bad medicine is what I need. Whoa-oa-oa, shake it up.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 5:45 PM
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I had a friend named Ramblin' Bob, who used to steal, gamble and rob.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 5:48 PM
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SEK is gay?

Well he has admitted that, even as a child, he listened to Bette Midler. So there's that.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 5:49 PM
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"Well he has admitted that, even as a child, he his mother listened to Bette Midler."


Posted by: SEK | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 5:50 PM
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259: Brother, wanna thank your mother for musical taste like that.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 5:52 PM
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I thought theories that blamed homosexuality on the actions of the mother had gone out of favor, SEK.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 5:52 PM
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SEK's mother is gay?


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 5:53 PM
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But anyways, does your mother think they'll drop the bomb? Does she think they'll try to break your balls?


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 5:54 PM
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262: I can attest that she's at least bi, John.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 5:54 PM
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249 to 264.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 5:55 PM
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263: His mama don't dance, and I never met his daddy, but circumstances led me to believe that he don't rock and roll.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 5:56 PM
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So now M/itch is gay too?


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 5:56 PM
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His girlfriend's name is Sir. Duh.


Posted by: DaveL | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 5:57 PM
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Sir. Duh. s/b "Sir Duke"


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 5:58 PM
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To rationalize my participation in this thread, let me just say: have you ever read something that's interesting and useful, yet somehow still dull? Not just dull, but stab-your-eyes-out, brain-the-baby dull?


Posted by: SEK | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 6:04 PM
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OT: Buttplug Garfield is pure genius.


Posted by: SEK | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 6:06 PM
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270: What, exactly, do you think the lawyers around here do for a living?


Posted by: DaveL | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 6:08 PM
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272: I never knew. I'm sorry. I'm sorry!


Posted by: SEK | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 6:09 PM
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Lawyers spend their days reading things that are not just dull, but interesting and useful? I envy them.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 6:10 PM
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So now M/itch is gay too?

I'm gay where it counts, baby!


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 6:19 PM
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So, today I went in to pick up my final check. The lame benefits person told me I couldn't see the notes in my file. She did give me the name of the team members services person at regional. I called and said, why can't I have this? S/he said, "You can; you're entitled to it under Massachusetts law. You just need to submit a request in writing. If you carbon copy me, I'll make sure you get it." (WF sucks generally, but the PBS at my store was young and poorly trained. Not dumb, but, well.. I couldn't figure out why my flexible spending account money wasn't showing up in my online account, and she told me that the money comes out over time and wasn't yet available to me. I mean this is totally basic. The medical money is available to you at the beginning of the calendar year. The other store's person printed up a copy of the summary of the health plan. This one only knew what the leaflets were. "Unprofessional" is the word, I think.)

So I got all badass and googled through the General Laws of the Commonwealth which I found via Findlaw and looked up personnel records. I wrote up my letter and quoted the provision about providing a copy of the file to an employee within 5 business days. I also said that the particular section's definition of employee included people who had worked for a company in the past.

I walked in with the letter, said I'd spoken to the regional person and that this was my written request. I said that RP said that I was entitled to it, and local PBS person said, "Okay, if she wants to do it, she can, but I can't." And I said, "No, you have to do it; you're legally obligated." So, she said that she'd send it.

There's no way I can get severance pay, but I think that I may file a complaint with the department of labor.


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 6:32 PM
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Man. This has been an unhappy week for Unfogged Bostonians, what with the job loss and the lead paint. But good for you getting your records, and you should totally file a complaint with the Department of Labor -- I don't see any reason that you'd need a lawyer to do that.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 6:54 PM
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I still think that Unfogged should start a Whole Foods boycott. Surely if we can get Smasher declared sexy we can bring WF to their knees.

During the boycott the untrustworthy Ogged should be locked in the trunk of his car, or at least someone's car.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 7:16 PM
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276: I don't recognize that song, BG.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 9:24 PM
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Seriously, though, file the complaint. There is great satisfaction in knowing that you are being a thorn in an asshole's shoe. Even if the irritation is minor, so long as it's frequent.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-19-07 9:30 PM
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You know, BG, I don't know how much public discussion you can tolerate or have the emotional energy for. But if you really want to have an effect, one thing would be to file the Dept. of Labor complaint and then tell a sympathetic journalist about it.

Liz Spikol is the kind of person I'm thinking of -- a writer for a local alt-weekly newspaper (you know, the free ones that WF gives away in their lobby), someone who has written honestly and compassionately about her own mental-health issues and would be inclined to grant anonymity to someone who wanted to talk about the real-world impact of cruddy health-insurance policy and retail jobs with unsympathetic bosses.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 09-20-07 7:08 AM
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man, i really like this song-lyric game, but i wish somebody would show me how to play it.

oh won't you-oo-oo,
show me, the way (-ay)
everyday?


Posted by: kid bitzer | Link to this comment | 09-20-07 8:35 AM
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the real-world impact of cruddy health-insurance policy and retail jobs with unsympathetic bosses

Not to mention a primary underlying cause: that WF has very aggressively resisted any attempts by its workers to organize.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 09-20-07 8:53 AM
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Garfield buttplug is disturbing. Who wants Garfield in their ass?


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-20-07 9:16 AM
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280: There is great satisfaction in knowing that you are being a thorn in an asshole's shoe.

I won't slave for beggar's pay;
likewise gold and jewels.
But I would slave to learn the way
to sink your ship of fools.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 09-20-07 9:17 AM
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284: Why, Mrs. Garfield of course.


Posted by: James Garfield | Link to this comment | 09-20-07 9:18 AM
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I'd prefer Garfield in B's ass than cluttering up the comics pages.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 09-20-07 10:49 AM
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287: Well, of course *you* would. But I am not so selfless.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-20-07 10:51 AM
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But I am not so selfless catty enough.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 09-20-07 11:17 AM
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NOT catty enough, thankyouverymuch.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-20-07 11:23 AM
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NOT catty enough, thankyouverymuch

Putting Garfield up your butt will make you cattier.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 09-20-07 11:33 AM
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In oh, so many ways.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-20-07 11:34 AM
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I just got this image of B lovingly reading Oh the Places You'll Go! to her Garfield buttplug. Heartwarming!


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 09-20-07 11:52 AM
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I think you have to add lasagna to your butt if you have Garfield in there. Gets crowded.


Posted by: Timothy Burke | Link to this comment | 09-20-07 12:21 PM
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294: Is it okay if the lasagna enters via the small intestine instead of the route Garfield did? Simplifies things.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 09-20-07 12:27 PM
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