Re: Overreactions to ovary actions.

1

For some reason "conversational content" just keeps on cracking me up every time I look at it.


Posted by: Robust McManlyPants | Link to this comment | 10- 8-07 7:14 AM
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1. Can someone less lazy than me tell me why the researchers are so sure this has more to do with the men than with how the women behave?

2. I'd love to see similar research on viewing porn. "Men were highly sensitive to the hormonal cycles of porn actresses, but not so much to the fact that they were viewing pixellated screens."


Posted by: Barbar | Link to this comment | 10- 8-07 7:18 AM
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Well, it's a very, very small study that you'd want to see repeated before you draw any real conclusions from it. If it's a valid observation, it's pretty interesting. I wonder how strong the effect is in less explicitly sexual service industry situations.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10- 8-07 7:22 AM
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sexual service industry

That didn't come out quite right.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10- 8-07 7:22 AM
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The numbers suggest that men can tell when a woman is most fertile, although the message seems to be conveyed by "subtle behavioral signals" that evade conscious detection, the authors say.

What 2 said. Why isn't a candidate explanation that the women's interest in dancing, or generally putting up with shit, is less when they're menstruating?


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 10- 8-07 7:28 AM
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Also, as always, your title-fu is unstoppable.


Posted by: Robust McManlyPants | Link to this comment | 10- 8-07 7:31 AM
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I'm not going to pay a lot for this muffler.


Posted by: FL | Link to this comment | 10- 8-07 7:32 AM
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2, 5: I'm not sure I see what you're objecting to. The point is that there *appears* to be some sort of non-verbal communication of reproductive status that has an effect on the financial transaction. Any such would necessarily require unconscious action from both the transmitting and receiving party.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10- 8-07 7:33 AM
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7 is killing me.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10- 8-07 7:34 AM
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And then it killed the blog.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10- 8-07 8:22 AM
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I've seen somewhere a different study linking women's style of dress (of a sample of women out clubbing) to the stage in their menstrual cycle. Wouldn't really apply to strippers, I suppose.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 8-07 8:29 AM
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8: I think the problem is that, as summarized, it's insisting that there's an interesting subconcious thing going on with the men, rather than a "well duh" thing going on with the women.

Their entire result is hinging on this statement: "but they don't think it's anything obvious such as type of dance moves or "conversational content".

If that's what the data says, fine, but I want more than their say so. I would think it would be hard to feel sexy, wearing next to nothing around strangers, whilst menstruating. And the general phenomenon of the human ability to read various non-verbal and subtle behavioral cues is hardly big news anymore.

What say ye female unfoggetariat?


Posted by: orangatan | Link to this comment | 10- 8-07 8:34 AM
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8: Mostly the rush in the beginning and the middle of the article to go straight for the pheremones/scent explanation. It's not as though the cycle goes on without the women noticing.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 10- 8-07 8:35 AM
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12: "hard" s/b "harder"


Posted by: orangatan | Link to this comment | 10- 8-07 8:35 AM
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8: What they're saying is that the relationship between menstrual cycle and worn dollar bills doesn't mean that the men are responding to knowledge (conscious or sub) of the cycle. If women simply tend to dance more or less enticingly depending on cycle, the men could be responding to that alone. No need for veldtian behavioral or pheremonal signals.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 10- 8-07 8:40 AM
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13: I just reread the article and it doesn't appear to suggest any given explanation.

"The finding suggests that women subtly signal when they are most fertile, although just how they do it is not clear. [...] The numbers suggest that men can tell when a woman is most fertile, although the message seems to be conveyed by 'subtle behavioral signals' that evade conscious detection, the authors say. They add that the study couldn't identify whether it is scent or other physical changes that cue the men in, but they don't think it's anything obvious such as type of dance moves or 'conversational content.' "


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10- 8-07 8:43 AM
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15: Okay, correlation vs. causation. Granted. And again, too small a study to assign any real power to it.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10- 8-07 8:44 AM
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This article discusses a related issue:

The scent of a woman is more attractive at certain times of the month, suggests a new study that had men sniffing women's armpit odor.
"We were interested whether armpit odor changes across menstrual cycle," said study author Jan Havlieek of the Department of Anthropology at Charles University, Prague. "To test this, we asked a group of women to wear cotton pads in their armpits for 24 hours."
[...] "The fresh pads were subsequently rated for their attractiveness and intensity by a group of 42 men," [...] The most attractive smells, men said, were from the time between the first day of menstruation and ovulation.

Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 10- 8-07 8:45 AM
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12, 13: The study is obviously small and weird, so nothing to be relied on unless replicated, but the interesting bit offhand is the claimed difference in the luteal and estrous phases of the cycle. I know when I'm menstruating, obviously, but don't consciously pay attention to where I am in the cycle beyond that -- if there were a real result there, I'd think it would indicate something veldt-ish: either non-conscious behavioral changes or the pheronome nonsense (with my guess on the former).


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 8-07 8:45 AM
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I agree with 15. I mean, women are supposedly hornier during the estrous phase, and so their dancing is more effective, because maybe it's easier to pretend that they are into the lap-dance-receiver if they're actually just generally horny. Thus, the dudes pay more, 'cause they are like, wow, this chick is really into me!


Posted by: m. leblanc | Link to this comment | 10- 8-07 8:46 AM
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Exactly. If the women are feeling bloated and feeling crampy, it's probably going to (consciously or not) affect their dancing. Which means the men aren't reacting to knowledge of fertility, just more or less enthusiastic dancing. Maybe there's a good reason the study ignores this in favor of postulating that estrogen makes you more flexible or pheremones, but I'm not sure why.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 10- 8-07 8:46 AM
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I would think it would be hard to feel sexy, wearing next to nothing around strangers, whilst menstruating.

That's why men always feel sexy when wearing next to nothing around strangers. Month in and month out, men are 25% sexier than women in those situations, or even more in the case of women with irregular cycles.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 10- 8-07 8:47 AM
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Folks, the article really doesn't suggest pheremones are at work; pretty much the opposite. There's also this data blip: "The other seven women were on birth control pills. They earned less across the board, and there was no peaking at the estrous phase."


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10- 8-07 8:50 AM
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I'm thinking about this now, and it makes perfect sense. There are times when I'm ovulating that, like, I just think about sex for days at a time, much more than usual. I imagine that in that circumstance it would be a lot easier, were I a stripper, to really get into the performance of the lap dance than otherwise.


Posted by: m. leblanc | Link to this comment | 10- 8-07 8:51 AM
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nonsense?


Posted by: cerebrocrat | Link to this comment | 10- 8-07 8:51 AM
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23: Wait, how is that a data blip? Birth-control pills make your body fake-pregnant, with the same hormonal leval all the time, right?

Whether the increased $ is because women are responding to how their own bodies feel, and/or because men are picking up unsconscious signals being sent by the women, then the fact that women whose bodies are artificially hovering at the same hormonal level all the time don't see fluctuations in their income is the only definitive part of the study. And it's interesting.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 10- 8-07 8:54 AM
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24: All right, 'nonsense' overstates my knowledge of anything relevant. But a pheromonal explanation just sounds unlikely compared to something behavioral.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 8-07 9:02 AM
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Wait, how is that a data blip?

I used the term incorrectly.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10- 8-07 9:05 AM
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why is the metric "tips per hour" rather than "tips per lapdance"? I am not really inclined to do too much thinking about this, but the variance in "lapdances per hour" is surely going to subtract information here.


Posted by: dsquared | Link to this comment | 10- 8-07 9:06 AM
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But a pheromonal explanation just sounds unlikely compared to something behavioral.

But a pheromonal explanation strikes as the default, since I already know that when two adult women start living together their menstrual cycles (generally) sync up after a coupla months. I'm pretty sure buttwaggling would not be a cue for that. And I also know that kissing kicks off a phermonal exchange. So the pheromones are capable of carrying the signal and the signal is present and men (or other women for that matter) can read said signal. AND being on birth control apparently neutralizes the signal at least in part.

max
['Double your trouble, double your fun...']


Posted by: max | Link to this comment | 10- 8-07 9:19 AM
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Birth-control pills make your body fake-pregnant, with the same hormonal leval all the time, right?

Depends on the pill.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 10- 8-07 9:22 AM
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Aren't pheromones detected by vomeronasal receptors, almost all of which are inactive in almost all humans? Without experimental confirmation that the relevant receptors show activity, claims of linkage between easily detectable estrus cycle and [something] aren't interesting, IMO. Is there documentation of/ a clear explanation for estrus cycle phase locking among cohabiting women? Does this happen in other primate bands?


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 10- 8-07 9:35 AM
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Guess which phase of my menstrual cycle I'm in right now.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 10- 8-07 9:38 AM
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"Generally" sync up should be "sometimes" sync up, but I'm pretty sure it's a reasonably well-attested effect.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 8-07 9:38 AM
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My limited experience backs up M. Leblanc in 25. It doesn't seem that uncommon for women to actually be aware that their arousal level fluctuates with their cycle (not when actually menstruating, but in the week before, etc.). Also sometimes that being on the pill can change their arousal patterns. I mean, I've had partners comment on both of these things. It seems perfectly plausible that this would affect performance at this particular job. Like apo says, the study doesn't take any stand on whether it's phermomones or behavior.

The estrous vs. luteal phase (whatever that is) and the birth control findings seem especially convincing, since like people say the effect of actually menstruating requires no explanation.

29: motivation to perform more lapdances per hour might be part of the hormonal effect. That would be something to look for in the data.

How many young men will decide on a career in the social sciences after reading this study?


Posted by: marcus | Link to this comment | 10- 8-07 9:40 AM
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Heebie has her menstrual cycle phaser set to "Stun".


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10- 8-07 9:41 AM
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I'll lute-tate everything in my path. Beware.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 10- 8-07 9:42 AM
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don't loot the tate. you'd just get a lot of indecipherable turners, maybe a constable or two.
loot the uffizi instead. better stuff there.


Posted by: kid bitzer | Link to this comment | 10- 8-07 9:43 AM
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commenting in the sex threads = estrous phase
commenting in the advice threads = luteal phase
commenting in the political threads = menstruating

on the pill = too busy to comment, getting laid.


Posted by: marcus | Link to this comment | 10- 8-07 9:46 AM
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39 = "conversational content" clues


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 10- 8-07 9:48 AM
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reasonably well-attested effect

Anecdotally, sure-- a couple of easy questions would be whether everyone synchs up, or whether the women that don't have some shared feature of the relevant dozen or so active genes; whether the rate of synching up (after one cycle or five?) is invariant among say all CEPH populations. There's a lot written about estrus synchronization of farm animals, but they still have the relevant organ. I don't see anything about primates.


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 10- 8-07 9:49 AM
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marcus got my number

It's the eyes, you gotta look for the dilated eyes


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 10- 8-07 9:49 AM
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Indecipherable?


Posted by: Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 10- 8-07 9:52 AM
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hey heebie, what bob said:
you got dial-up pupils and all?


Posted by: kid bitzer | Link to this comment | 10- 8-07 9:52 AM
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43 to 43?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10- 8-07 9:53 AM
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So the pheromones are capable of carrying the signal and the signal is present and men (or other women for that matter) can read said signal.

Even if this is true (I'm not qualified to say), it's a leap from there to say that they operate in this circumstance. Both the examples you give involve much closer or longer-term interpersonal contact than a strip club gives.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 10- 8-07 9:53 AM
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Like apo says, the study doesn't take any stand on whether it's phermomones or behavior.

If scientists found that menstruating women were worse at Tetris, would they say that Tetris software can tell where a woman is in her cycle?


Posted by: Barbar | Link to this comment | 10- 8-07 9:55 AM
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hey heebie, what bob said: you got dial-up pupils and all?

I can't see my own pupils, silly. There's a really easy test to see if you're menstruating, though.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 10- 8-07 9:56 AM
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48: give a lapdance and then cash out, I'm assuming.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10- 8-07 9:57 AM
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47: No, they'd say this is proof that women shouldn't be in the military.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 10- 8-07 9:59 AM
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The eyes are the fallback strategy if she refuses to let you sniff her armpit.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 10- 8-07 10:00 AM
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51: "eyes" s/b "smelling-nose dogs"


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10- 8-07 10:01 AM
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There's a really easy test to see if you're menstruating, though.

But it doesn't work for men. That's why you have to look at McManus' eyes.


Posted by: marcus | Link to this comment | 10- 8-07 10:02 AM
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48--
heebie, try googling the word 'mirror'.
it's a relatively new invention, only a few millennia old, but it could change your life.


Posted by: kid bitzer | Link to this comment | 10- 8-07 10:03 AM
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"Mirror, mirror, on the wall, am I menstruating?"


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10- 8-07 10:04 AM
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It doesn't seem that uncommon for women to actually be aware that their arousal level fluctuates with their cycle (not when actually menstruating, but in the week before, etc.). Also sometimes that being on the pill can change their arousal patterns. I mean, I've had partners comment on both of these things. It seems perfectly plausible that this would affect performance at this particular job.

Yes, exactly.

This is an interesting study, but it definitely can't be taken as showing that in some way men detect when women are in their cycle and subconsciously it induces them to tip more.

In order to do that you would have to have some sort of control, like ensuring that women in all phases of the cycle act exactly the same, or spritzing non-ovulating women with the sweat of ovulating women, or something like that.

More grants please!


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 10- 8-07 10:05 AM
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But it doesn't work for men.

Well, sometimes.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10- 8-07 10:06 AM
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A 'meer-ror', eh? Sounds intriguing!
(footsteps tapping off into the distance.)

...

(footsteps tapping back into the room.)
AUUGGGGHHH! I'M FAT AND UGLY! I miss my innocence. Curse you, Kid.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 10- 8-07 10:07 AM
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58--
simple mistake, heebie:
that was no mirror, that was your autographed poster of apostropher.

as you get familiar with the technology it will get easier.


Posted by: kid bitzer | Link to this comment | 10- 8-07 10:09 AM
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All I know is from now on I'm going to ask for raises or domestic things like "please don't use my damn towel" while I'm ovulating.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 10- 8-07 10:15 AM
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that was no mirror, that was your autographed poster of apostropher.

Oh, thank god. Apo, you're menstruating.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 10- 8-07 10:15 AM
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I call it manstruating.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10- 8-07 10:18 AM
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Anecdotally, sure

No. They did a study, I believe during the 90's, which I remember because I thought it was weird and so I emailed it to everyone. [Someone feel free to root it up on PubMed or something.] The upshot was that it took about 3-4 cycles for the 'submissive' (adult) female to come into sync with the (unrelated) 'dominant' female when they were initially totally out of sync. The 'submissive' female's cycle would go way long for a coupla cycles, and the other woman's cycle would shorten slightly.

Without experimental confirmation that the relevant receptors show activity, claims of linkage between easily detectable estrus cycle and [something] aren't interesting, IMO.

I wouldn't claim it as proof without, you know, evidence. However, given that most vertebrates use scent (plus other methods) as sexual-signaling, and given the stuff mention about, I would go with that as my working hypothesis first, particularly since 'enthusiasm for grinding' is a real hard thing to measure and I can maybe rig a test for pheromones.

Both the examples you give involve much closer or longer-term interpersonal contact than a strip club gives.

But with lap-dancing, you have sweaty, almost-naked women in close proximity to receptive men, which would probably result in amplication. Additionally, the time it takes to sync period would not be the same as the time it takes for a signal to be received.

max
['"On the veldt, women would signal their sexual availability by finding tall, skinny trees and dancing around them" seems kinda complicated.']


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 10- 8-07 10:32 AM
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On the veldt, women would signal their sexual availability by finding tall, skinny trees and dancing around them" seems kinda complicated.

'on the veldt' s/b 'in bollywood movies'


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 10- 8-07 10:36 AM
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However, given that most vertebrates use scent (plus other methods) as sexual-signaling,

But as vertebrates go, aren't humans very unusually scent-insensitive? Which is what makes be tend to dismiss this sort of explanation.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 8-07 10:42 AM
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On the veldt, women would signal their sexual availability by

...wearing hooker moccasins.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10- 8-07 10:42 AM
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"The estrous vs. luteal phase (whatever that is) and the birth control findings seem especially convincing, since like people say the effect of actually menstruating requires no explanation."

But you can look at it in the exact opposite way as well. Since (as we seem to be stipulating) the menstrual result is clearly behavioral, that doesn't liscense you to say that the estrous/luteal result isn't. Same goes for the pill effect, it could just mean that women no longer get some of those bodily cues that inform their behavior.

It's still a neat study, I don't mean to suggest otherwise. But if the stated upshot was only "Women's behavior very sensitive to subtle cues from their estrous cycle" I don't think it gets a press release. Published, sure. But no Yahoo news headlines.


Posted by: orangatan | Link to this comment | 10- 8-07 10:44 AM
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Someone feel free to root it up on PubMed, scent

I looked before I wrote, but didn't find anything for primates. Do you remember which animal? Not to get boring, but, like I said, we along with other primates lack a vomeronasal organ; we have a handful of the relevant genes still functional. Measuring the odorant without looking at how well the vestigial receptor works doesn't tell you much.


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 10- 8-07 10:56 AM
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Evidence for menstrual synchrony in humans is well beyond anecdotal, but there's a lot of controversy about the methodology used to study it, so who knows. Good evidence (I think, without having read the papers) for it in other animals, though.

Evidence for human pheromone responses is also controversial, but much less so, and I strongly suspect the doubters are nitpicking. One functional vomeronasal receptor (VN1R1) has been identified in humans, and you don't need a vomeronasal organ to have/use vomeronasal receptors. Fish don't have vomeronasal organs at all, but conduct much of their sex lives via the vn receptors in their regular old olfactory epithelium. Mice do have vn organs, but still express vn receptors in the olfactory epithelium and seem to use them, too. And finally, LB, you don't have to be consciously aware of sensory receptor activation for it to effect your behavior.

Totally aside from the topic at hand, I was just surprised by a recent paper in Nature saying that if you take the vn organ out of female mice, they start showing male sexual behaviors. The authors interpret this to mean that the male sexual behavioral repertoire is fully present and functional in females (mice) and is just suppressed by pheremonal action. If that's true, damn. And it would seem to relate somehow to about every other thread here.

I have to find a way to work the word "manstruating" into common use.


Posted by: cerebrocrat | Link to this comment | 10- 8-07 11:30 AM
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But as vertebrates go, aren't humans very unusually scent-insensitive? Which is what makes be tend to dismiss this sort of explanation.

Sometimes we respond to things without realizing that the reason we are responding to them is that we received a scent signal. I think this is how we end up being attracted to people with different MHC complexes.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 10- 8-07 11:33 AM
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it is illegal to pay for sex in New Mexico

Uh oh.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 10- 8-07 11:33 AM
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I have to find a way to work the word "manstruating" into common use.

Just be aware that it inevitably leads into a discussion of the various brands of manpons. I prefer the Aqua Velva ones, myself.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10- 8-07 11:35 AM
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I prefer the Aqua Velva ones, myself.

I would think that would sting.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 10- 8-07 11:44 AM
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Do you remember which animal?

On the one hand with menstruation syncing, followed up here, however, on the other hand....

More fun:

An important caveat for humans is that critical components typically found within the functioning VNO of other, nonprimate, mammals are lacking, suggesting that the human VNO does not function in the way that has been described for other mammals. In a broader perspective, pheromones can be classified as primers, signalers, modulators, and releasers. There is good evidence to support the presence of the former three in humans. Examples include affects on the menstrual cycle (primer effects); olfactory recognition of newborn by its mother (signaler); individuals may exude different odors based on mood (suggestive of modulator effects).

Stinky!
Four olfactory sessions were performed with 58 young Southern Brazilian students, in order to investigate whether assessments of pleasantness of body odors from individuals correlate to a person's HLA phenotype. Body odors were collected via sweat and urine from all participants. Women smelled and scored all male odor samples and men did the same with all female samples. We found a significant correlation only when female smellers evaluated male sweat odors.

The most closely relevant to the story in the post:
Each male student wore a T-shirt for two consecutive nights. The next day, each female student was asked to rate the odours of six T-shirts. They scored male body odours as more pleasant when they differed from the men in their MHC than when they were more similar. This difference in odour assessment was reversed when the women rating the odours were taking oral contraceptives. Furthermore, the odours of MHC-dissimilar men remind the test women more often of their own actual or former mates than do the odours of MHC-similar men. This suggests that the MHC or linked genes influence human mate choice today.

All links are NIMH abstracts except the last which is JSTOR.

max
['I lack access.']


Posted by: max | Link to this comment | 10- 8-07 11:48 AM
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72: You're killing me here.

This was (marginally) interesting: I found two menstrual synchronization studies on non-human primates, both negative results (no synchrony). What's interesting is that there is just no way either one would ever have gotten published if it weren't for the controversy over synchronization in humans. Looking over the PubMed results, it looks like the bulk of the publication on the subject concerns the soundness of the methodology, which I wouldn't take as a good sign. And when you see articles with titles like "Two studies of menstrual synchrony: negative results," you know these people hate each other. Also, Martha McClintock's writing style is crazy.


Posted by: cerebrocrat | Link to this comment | 10- 8-07 11:51 AM
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Also, menstrual synchronizing doesn't necessarily indicate ovulation synchronizing, as menstruation /= ovulation.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 10- 8-07 11:53 AM
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I would think that would sting.

No pain no gain, wimpy girl.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10- 8-07 11:54 AM
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77: Hey, OB works just fine for me.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 10- 8-07 11:57 AM
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Anyway, look who's talking, Mr. Charmin Bottom.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 10- 8-07 11:58 AM
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Cottonelle. And not because it's soft, because it's ridged. For my pleasure.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10- 8-07 11:59 AM
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So the Aqua Velva thing is that the tingling of alcohol on your mucous membranes is a big thrill for you. Got it.

Freak.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 10- 8-07 12:11 PM
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81: Sometimes I just put a little Fresca on a manty liner.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10- 8-07 12:14 PM
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Looking over the PubMed results, it looks like the bulk of the publication on the subject concerns the soundness of the methodology, which I wouldn't take as a good sign. [...] Also, Martha McClintock's writing style is crazy.

I expected as much after I saw all three papers lined up. [No endorsement should be taken or implied!]

And when you see articles with titles like "Two studies of menstrual synchrony: negative results," you know these people hate each other.

I am thinking we will shortly see 'A Critical Review of Lap-Dancing Research'.

max
[''More intense grinding while ovulating' is still a lousy explanation.']


Posted by: max | Link to this comment | 10- 8-07 12:18 PM
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Wouldn't it be easy to determine the role of pheromones versus other factors by rerunning the study with women who strip for men but wouldn't be able to smell each other (internet sites or an old fashioned peep show a la Madonna's "Open Your Heart" video)?


Posted by: Becks | Link to this comment | 10- 8-07 8:03 PM
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