Re: Social Capital?

1

He's shouting in the second message because he doesn't think you heard the first one.


Posted by: Matt F | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 10:09 AM
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Was there any contact with Candidate X in the time between the two messages?


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 10:09 AM
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If that works I am totally using that on my c.v.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 10:10 AM
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would like to be responded to about it


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 10:10 AM
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Well-connected people like me understand that you demand a response.


Posted by: Felix | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 10:11 AM
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CALL ME BACK MOTHERFUCKERS.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 10:13 AM
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ALSO YOU CAN USE E-MAIL TO RESPOND.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 10:13 AM
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Was there any contact with Candidate X in the time between the two messages?

No, they were less than a minute apart.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 10:14 AM
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My favorite excerpt from a cover letter: "... and I'm easy on the eyes." This was an attorney.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 10:15 AM
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OK SO IT WAS ME. WHERE'S MY JOB?


Posted by: O.G. | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 10:16 AM
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With some of these, I almost feel a duty to save them from themselves. You wrote "Winnows" where you meant "Windows" and although the rest of your resume is pretty good, no one on earth is going to call you. Of course, I'm so bad at this that my first thought was, "I wonder if that's software I haven't heard of."


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 10:22 AM
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Back on the veldt, this level of enthusiasm would have been rewarded with a generous chunk of singed wildebeast flesh. Ah, evolution.


Posted by: NCProsecutor | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 10:24 AM
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Oh, the poor guy. His communication skills are weak, but this isn't that weird -- what he was going for was "Please feel free to contact me at [Redacted phone number] at any time," and realized that he'd left his phone number out of the initial email.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 10:25 AM
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I don't get the problem with this.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 10:26 AM
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Why is everybody assuming Candidate X is male?


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 10:26 AM
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15: Sexism. Duh.


Posted by: NCProsecutor | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 10:28 AM
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9: Tell me you didn't hire them.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 10:28 AM
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Totally OT: Glenn is on fire today. I love when he gets all Founding Fathers.


Posted by: NCProsecutor | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 10:31 AM
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I actually don't know X's gender. Can't tell from the email or the sign-off. And LB, you softie, there was no resume, nothing. Just a "hey, call me back." You cannot be serious.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 10:34 AM
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Can the mineshaft help?

Does "8 inches, cut." belong on the resume proper, or the cover letter?


Posted by: Michael | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 10:34 AM
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No resume? That was the entire communication? Okay, that's freakish.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 10:34 AM
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19: Oh, I thought the idea was that somehow the first email was fine but then the second one screwed up the person's chances.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 10:35 AM
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NcProsecutor:

Agreed. Great article by Greenwald, as always.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 10:35 AM
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Does "8 inches, cut." belong on the resume proper, or the cover letter?

The photo shouldn't be on the cover letter because you can't be sure who's going to be receiving the fax.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 10:35 AM
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Yay! Ridiculous and/or sad applicant stories. (I'm so with ogged with the desire to save them from themselves.)

"Working on these campaigns I built a strong demeanor with volunteers, voters, and other campaign staff."

Bear in mind that this was for a job that included writing.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 10:38 AM
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That was the entire communication?

Yup.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 10:38 AM
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20: Cover letter, with photos. You have to put a personal touch on these things.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 10:40 AM
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On an application form for a pharmacy where I worked"

"Expected duration of employment?"
"Until something better comes along."


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 10:40 AM
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I had someone attach her "Glamour shot" 8 X 10 to her resume. She was applying to be a paralegal.

I didnt hire her.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 10:43 AM
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I actually don't know X's gender. Can't tell from the email or the sign-off.

OKAY I'LL SEND CV BUT DO YOU RESPOND TO MAC OR WINNOWS


Posted by: Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 10:44 AM
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Anyone applying to be a paralegal should proof the living hell out of their resume. I still feel bad -- I dinged a woman applying at my old firm; she was really smart (the "I'm right out of college and going to law school in two years" class of paralegal), and her resume wasn't that bad, just with inconsistent en and em dashes and hyphens, formatting choices that varied slightly from one paragraph to the next, and so on. I would have hired a lawyer with a resume that sloppy -- it was all minor stuff -- but most of what you want out of a paralegal is having a good eye for that kind of thing.

But I did feel rotten about advising that she not be hired.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 10:47 AM
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On an application form for a pharmacy where I worked"

"Expected duration of employment?"
"Until something better comes along."

If it's a job that doesn't involve more than a couple hours of training, how could anyone say anything other than this and mean it?


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 10:47 AM
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Another one.

From the cover e-mail:

"I am an American because I believe in the greatness of this country. I strongly encourage you to appoint a lifelong servant of integrity and a standard of excellence. Please appoint me [Candidate X. Lastname] as the next [position]. NOTE: If you have any questions or concerns of my fitness, please contact me via return e-mail and/or you may contact me direct at my office @ [phone]. May God bless you and keep you, [Candidate X. Lastname]"

Now his writing sample, which is long, but must be quoted in full.

"I believe it is fair that you should know the 12 traits that I live by in you appointing a committed public servant . First of all, I am...

TRUSTWORTHY- people will not work or vote for someone they do not trust or is not sincere.

LOYAL- you won't survive if you sell out the people around you.

HELPFUL-Sometimes people need help to get a job done (And I need you now because I pledge to be there for you in the future!)
FRIENDLY- people respond better if you are in a good mood; I feel the best days is ahead of us. COURTEOUS- a little courtesy goes a long way in any situation; I owe a lot to you!

KIND- you will never know when you need someone's help;and at this time we need each other. OBEDIENT- one must learn to take orders before one can give them; I have been doing this consistently with my 40 plus of volunteer involvement and service in this area and my tenure as an Officer in the United States Air Force.

CHEERFUL-you will get to make a first impression once;for me-THIS IS IT!

THRIFTY-you will have to be able to think on your feet to stay on top. BRAVE-you have to be willing to try new things and new ideas.

CLEAN-the way you present yourself effects everything you do.

REVERENT-"NOTHING IS POSSIBLE WITHOUT GOD!"

Your earnest and positive consideration of this candidacy would be greatly appreciated and welcome. If you need to speak with me personally, you may contact me weekdays in my office @[number] and/or via return e-mail by logging in to [e-mail]. May God bless you and keep you."


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 10:47 AM
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Throughout the time I've been involved with recruiting, and I've done it a bit, I don't think I've seen more than one or two CV + covering letter combinations without some sort of grammatical howler. In many/most cases they were near laughably illiterate [and these were for skilled jobs].

Makes me fearful that somewhere or other there's a file with one of my own covering letters in it with someone else's scrawled sarcastic comments on it.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 10:49 AM
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If it's a job that doesn't involve more than a couple hours of training, how could anyone say anything other than this and mean it?

They wouldn't. But you don't go into your i-banking interview saying that you plan on working hard for two years to make tons of money so you can get laid, either.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 10:50 AM
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33: You do know those are the Boy Scout virtues, right?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 10:50 AM
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Oh, wait -- one more piece from the same candidate. From his resume (which, needless to say, included absolutely nothing the slightest bit relevant to the position):

"Computer literate, calculator, office equipment and self-sufficient in the office environment."

Dude can use a calculator!


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 10:52 AM
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You do know those are the Boy Scout virtues, right?

Yeah, but I'm pretty sure the Boy Scouts don't think that "thrifty" means "you will have to be able to think on your feet to stay on top."


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 10:53 AM
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And he can survive for days in the office environment with nothing more than a hatchet and a Zippo!


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 10:53 AM
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my tenure as an Officer in the United States Air Force.

Okay, so this person has a college degree. As does, presumably? the person who wrote Ogged.

1. How is this possible?
2. Please tell me that these people did not have decent gpas in high school.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 10:54 AM
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I did once send a job application with a typo in the name of the state (which was part of the name of the school or the organization or whatever it was).

Needless to say, I realized this too late, and immediately knew I would not be hearing from them.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 10:56 AM
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40 gets it right. I'd be impressed with that cover letter if it was from a recent immigrant from Tanzania, maybe.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 10:57 AM
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"Computer literate, calculator, office equipment and self-sufficient in the office environment."

See, things like this just break my heart. People are trying so hard, but they're really guessing and don't stand a chance.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 10:57 AM
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1. How is this possible?

English majors, probably.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 10:58 AM
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re:40

I've had barely literate essays from people with 3 years of university education, so it doesn't surprise me at all.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 11:00 AM
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so this person has a college degree

Yeah, and had done some graduate work in public administration & business, though he doesn't actually list degrees.

And one more thing about him (last one, I swear). The job included web strategy, working with web tech people on site design, etc. The HTML version of his resume was green & white courier text on a background that was black with strings of green sort of washed-out numbers (and not even binary code).

I do feel really sorry for the guy and mean for mocking him. But not enough not to do so.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 11:01 AM
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You know, I haven't done much hiring, but I have to say that my impression is that the incapacity to generate literate prose, even on the level needed to write a cover letter, is common enough that I wouldn't hold it against someone who wasn't applying for a writing job.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 11:01 AM
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"Sir, I apply for the position in your office, and refer you to my principals, [redacted].

Yours faithfully,"


Posted by: George Nathaniel Curzon | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 11:02 AM
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Meanwhile, I have a gorgeous resume and write letter-perfect cover letters, yet spend half my day (just kidding, boss!) talking to youse guys. Back to work.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 11:03 AM
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Sir Kraab, don't laugh at the guy -- it's hard to go back to being an office drone once you've entered the Matrix.


Posted by: snarkout | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 11:04 AM
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English majors, probably.

Not if they ever took one of my classes, dammit.

47: What, are you nuts? I would totally hold it against someone. Incoherent prose = incoherent thought.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 11:05 AM
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re: 47

Yeah, certainly I've interviewed people for jobs despite their terrible cover letters.

Without getting all 'teh end of civilisation is nigh', I'd be surprised if more than a tiny percentage of even the educated population can write worth shit. The commentators on this site are way, way, way over at one side of the bell-curve.

* just before I hit post on this I noticed one major grammatical mistake [a typo, honest!] and one spelling mistake. Almost, but not quite, hoist by my own petard.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 11:06 AM
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What I feel sorry for is the people whose strategy seems to be blind relentlessness. Sending the same resume and generic cover letter every time you advertise a new job, no matter the requirements. Calling even when warned not to in the advertisement. Etc. This can shade into the ineptitude of Ogged's correspondent.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 11:06 AM
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re: 51

I suspect if you were recruiting for tech jobs, you genuinely wouldn't find anyone who met those standards for prose. Not until you were getting well into the higher pay brackets anyway.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 11:07 AM
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I can't go into it for fear of getting Dooced but these examples of bad writing are nothing.

NOTHING, I tell you. I've seen things that would make you cry.

The last stack of resumes I got was weird -- there must have been 3 candidates out of 10 who had taken the last couple of years off to try day trading. I put them in the No pile for hopelessly bad judgement.


Posted by: Becks | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 11:07 AM
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53: So they're using the same strategy they use in trying to pick up women?


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 11:07 AM
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33: He left out BRAVE and COURTEOUS. A very bad sign.

inconsistent en and em dashes and hyphens

You've been taking w-lfs-n too seriously.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 11:08 AM
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I'd be surprised if more than a tiny percentage of even the educated population can write worth shit

Totally right. We're not filling a high-level job, so the pool is a little worse than others, but even so, out of 100 responses, 3-5 will be actually well-written.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 11:08 AM
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What, are you nuts? I would totally hold it against someone. Incoherent prose = incoherent thought.

No, no, no, no, no. If you never write anything except when required to, you write stream-of-consciousness weirdness. Even if you're completely coherent and quick-witted in conversation.

You've never encountered a smart person who unexpectedly turned out to send emails that were lowercase, unpunctuated, full of runon sentences? People write how they speak if they aren't used to writing.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 11:09 AM
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54: Aren't a lot of people here tech workers?

I do know intelligent educated people who write like shit (one was a good friend of ours when Mr. B. was in the AF, actually). But regardless, man; you have a friend who is literate look over your letter if you're that bad.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 11:09 AM
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Incoherent prose = incoherent thought.

This was recently discussed re: John Locke. Verdict: not true.

English teachers keep telling themselves that, though.

Even less true is "Coherent prose = coherent thought".


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 11:10 AM
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So they're using the same strategy they use in trying to pick up women?

Yep. Same guys, I suspect.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 11:11 AM
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People write how they speak if they aren't used to writing.

Actually it's the opposite; people who write like they speak write pretty well. It's the folks who are trying to write "formally" who screw everything up.

And yes, of *course* I know a lot of people write terribly. Nonetheless, incoherence or apparent nuttiness--as opposed to mild awkwardness--would totally land an application into the recycling bin.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 11:11 AM
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inconsistent en and em dashes and hyphens

You've been taking w-lfs-n too seriously.

Sir, you insult the entire paralegal profession. My briefs went out with a nary a misplaced dash or hyphen.

Shit. I'm really trying to ignore this thread and work. Can't everyone start talking about w-lfs-n's boring music or something?


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 11:12 AM
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He left out BRAVE and COURTEOUS.

No he didn't.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 11:12 AM
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61: Picture me making the little "W" with my thumbs and forefingers.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 11:13 AM
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So anyway, I was thinking about buying some glasses. My YouTube video will be up shortly, so stay tuned.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 11:13 AM
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I write like I speak.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 11:13 AM
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Let me pre-empt the inevitable question about my glasses. I know I am lame-ass, but I WILL get a photo up this weekend.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 11:14 AM
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re: 60

My 'day job' [the one that funds the doctorate] is a tech job, and I use to be a tech manager in an internet company. I'm pretty sure I'm right about the aggregate level of illiteracy. I've worked with so many bright people whose writing was just embarrassing to look at.

In fact, I'm fairly sure *I* am the only person in any of the tech environments I've worked in who could write coherent prose reports in ordinary English. That isn't to say that lots of the people I worked with weren't really good at their jobs, because a lot of them were, but writing as a specific skill is vanishingly rare.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 11:16 AM
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One of my job duties is editing study reports written by PhD-level biostatisticians, and many of them couldn't write their way out of a paper bag.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 11:18 AM
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68: So do I.

70: Really, truly, I know this. But first, coherent prose reports aren't the same as cover letters, and second, dude, I *know* a lot of tech people. They're not *great* writers, but they're not that bad. I realize many of them, perhaps even most, *are* that bad, but not all.

Also I am now wondering if you are acquainted with a friend of mine from the U. of Bath who is finishing (has finished?) his PhD in computer something or other.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 11:18 AM
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31:

inconsistent en and em dashes and hyphens

This always annoys the bejeezus out of me. Almost as much as the errant double-space!


Posted by: NCProsecutor | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 11:20 AM
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71: I'll have to get Mrs. NCP to try that. Can she sharpen her pen beforehand?


Posted by: NCProsecutor | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 11:21 AM
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73: I've actually got a horribly bad eye for those things, but that's why I want a paralegal who's good at it. I wouldn't hire me as a paralegal.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 11:22 AM
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73: I would blame Microsoft Word for that rather than any sentient entity.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 11:23 AM
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Writing is a little weird in that we allegedly recognize that it is a skill for which one can have varying amounts of talent but act continuously surprised when we discover that people have varying amounts of talent in way that we don't with other disciplines.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 11:26 AM
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I think I blogged this but it's worth repeating -- I once got a resume in Comic Sans.

Comic Fucking Sans.


Posted by: Becks | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 11:26 AM
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Again, why is that bad, Becks? Why must you all hate Comic Sans?


Posted by: TJ | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 11:28 AM
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77: Well, because most people can speak coherently. I sometimes tell people to literally write exactly how they would speak, or even to record themselves and then transcribe it.

It also helps, interestingly, to tell people to write as if they were writing a letter to a friend or grandma or someone. A lot of incredibly shitty writing is all about trying to adhere to some formal rules that one doesn't really understand.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 11:29 AM
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Mrs OFE and I plan to set up a company in our retirement to rewrite documents for companies who employ a high proportion of illiterates, so that they occasionally win a contract. We intend to charge a lot.


Posted by: OneFatEnglishman | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 11:30 AM
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I like Strunk and White. Simple writing is the best writing.

Along the same lines as Bitch's comment, people try too hard. They also do not proof read their stuff. On the internet, I think it is silly when people freak out about grammar. I have no intention of taking the time to proof my stuff.

Offline, proof reading is essential for grammar and for persuasive effect.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 11:32 AM
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I had a friend who had a good career as a tech writer for Tektronix (early hi-tech firm in Portland). He claimed that he was their top writer because none of the other tech people could write and none of the other writers knew the tech very well.

A lot of smart people haven't learned the low-level conventions and practices of writing. Lots of dumb people have. I have known people who could write instantly, though, with very minimal training.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 11:34 AM
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I HAVE PIGEON COOPS ON ROOF. PLEASE SEND SCROLLED ACCEPTANCE OF EMPLOYMENT.


Posted by: Timothy Burke | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 11:35 AM
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82: BANNED.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 11:36 AM
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Am I the only person who's purposely inserted typos to screen out employers who care about that sort of thing? I'm a EE, if that makes any difference.


Posted by: halax | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 11:36 AM
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80: I agree that 90% of the problem is trying to write formally without having an ear for it, but to be honest, most people don't speak in a way that would be impressive business writing. It's different than writing a composition or almost anything else.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 11:37 AM
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If anybody here wants to hire me to do freelance editing, I promise not to embed cock jokes in the document's metadata.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 11:39 AM
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Much.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 11:40 AM
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Though on Becks' no day-trader thing--I do know someone who has been day trading for about five years (he's an artist, and he also runs/rents an art gallery) and he makes a pretty good annual income that way. He's quite a good writer, from what I've seen. If he fetched up in certain kinds of employment pools (art administration, for example), I think he'd probably be a solid hire. Categorical rules for sorting applicants aren't a good idea, by and large--but on the other hand, I have yet to have someone who wrote a bad or weird cover letter not turn out to be bad and weird in person.


Posted by: Timothy Burke | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 11:40 AM
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Um, will, that's "proofread." One word.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 11:41 AM
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52--

"The commentators on this site are way, way, way over at one side of the bell-curve."

well, that makes me feel proud. assuming i'm included. and assuming we mean the same end of the curve.

59--
"You've never encountered a smart person who unexpectedly turned out to send emails that were lowercase, unpunctuated, full of runon sentences? People write how they speak if they aren't used to writing."

i've tried to explain before that i write this way because i speak in all lowercase, but nobody believes me.


Posted by: kid bitzer | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 11:44 AM
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Am I the only person who's purposely inserted typos to screen out employers who care about that sort of thing?

Screen employers? Some people just live in a totally different world from mine.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 11:45 AM
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halax is the BOFH.


Posted by: OneFatEnglishman | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 11:48 AM
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91:

I was going to finish my post with "persuasive affect", but, that would be to obvious.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 11:50 AM
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This is a fun game. How many punctuation mistakes can you include before w-lfs-n's, Kraab's, and Apo's heads explode?


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 11:51 AM
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92: I actually hear the no-caps thing as a tone of voice: squeaky and breathless, in a kind of cartoon mouse sort of way.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 11:53 AM
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I ran a job search for a minister in a church that still nominally abides by the notion of a "priesthood of all believers." For ministerial positions in the denomination there's still a sizable of applicants who have, at best, 2 years post-high-school education at unaccredited preacher-training schools; there are even a few who apply based on their experiences alone. We received many applications from such candidates, even though we made it clear that the church was in a major college town and education was a big plus.

By far, the worst applications featured autobiographies, all of which could be summarized in two sentences: "I was born and baptized in Texas, then I married a godfearing woman who cooks me dinner. She would never think of doing anything but staying home to raise and home school our 4 straight children." The autobiographies ranged from 2-4 pages.


Posted by: hermit greg | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 11:54 AM
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I actually hear the no-caps thing as a tone of voice

Do you read comments here in different voices?


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 11:56 AM
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This is the only place on the internet where I use caps.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 11:58 AM
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Um, will, "proof read" is not a punctuation mistake. It's a misspelling.

['Head throbbing but not yet exploding']


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 11:58 AM
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still nominally abides by the notion of a "priesthood of all believers."

Heh. I recognize that denomination. Nominally indeed.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 12:00 PM
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100: I thank you for restraining your inner barbarian for us.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 12:01 PM
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Kraab, do you say "full stop" or "period"?


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 12:02 PM
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I actually hear the no-caps thing as a tone of voice: squeaky and breathless, in a kind of cartoon mouse sort of way.

I see it more as somebody mumbling really quickly in such a way that they don't actually expect anyone to listen to them.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 12:02 PM
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"Period" unless I'm sending a telegram in 1944.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 12:02 PM
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All you no-caps haters are missing out on all the fun of talking to teenage girls via IM.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 12:04 PM
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omg lol no thx 107 k brb


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 12:04 PM
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102: Yes, I'm sure that in NC it's a lot more prevalent than IA.


Posted by: hermit greg | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 12:05 PM
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108: Your loss.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 12:06 PM
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It actually takes more effort for me to not use caps, having learned to type properly, a topic I think we already beat to death somewhere else.

(And don't anyone try to bust me for a split infinitive; it's a bullshit "rule.")


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 12:06 PM
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101:

I miss-spell all the time. MS Word has made me lazy.

every minute I use Word, I get weaker, and every minute Sir Kraab squats in the bush, she gets stronger. Each time I looked around, spell check walls moved in a little tighter.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 12:07 PM
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111: Me too, actually. I don't have any problem with other people using no caps, though. Especially teenage girls.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 12:08 PM
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Part of why this makes me wince is that I know I have sent out some really bad job applications myself, including years where I made the mistake of sending near generic CVs and cover letters to any job vaguely related to my field. That sort of resume spamming can virtually ensure bad grammar in at least a few cover letters. The thing is, I had a skill set that didn't really fit anywhere, so everything looked kind of appropriate.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 12:09 PM
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I don't have any problem with other people using no caps, though. Especially teenage girls.

Close: but "caps" should be "shirts"


Posted by: TJ | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 12:11 PM
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That too.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 12:12 PM
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97, 105--
i think you've got it between you:
i'm a breathless squeaky cartoon mouse who mumbles really quickly and doesn't expect anybody to listen to them.

i should be at the d-con in dc at the end of december. please drop cheese cubes in the corners.


Posted by: kid bitzer | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 12:13 PM
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On the boy scout thing: I could have sworn that the scout law included "honest" in there somewhere, but not according to the BSA's site. Which I am now assuming has been edited in an Orwellian attempt to re-write history.


Posted by: Tom Scudder | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 12:14 PM
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Despite being a Chemical Engineering major, my brother is an oddly good writer (and enjoys writing, too--he's taking an upper-division Shakespeare seminar this semester just for kicks, partly because he ran out of Math classes to take.) I'm betting he'll do alright, considering how oddly literate he is for his field.


Posted by: Matt F | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 12:14 PM
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I guess "TRUSTWORTHY" is better than "HONEST".


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 12:15 PM
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118: "Trustworthy" is close enough.


Posted by: Matt F | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 12:15 PM
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They replaced "HONEST" with "HETEROSEXUAL".


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 12:18 PM
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I'm betting he'll do alright

Professionally, I mean, though I'm sure he'll do fine in the class as well.


Posted by: Matt F | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 12:18 PM
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spell check walls moved in a little tighter

Wear fewer wetsuits.

alright

Has that battle been lost already?


Posted by: Not Prince Hamlet | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 12:18 PM
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I regularly do an exercise in class where I compare lists of virtues, including lists from Aristotle, Plato, Jim Liszka, and the Boy Scouts. The funniest student remark I ever got about the Boy Scout list was "Those sound like what you look for in a dog!"


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 12:19 PM
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I certainly appreciate a courteous dog.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 12:20 PM
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Has that battle been lost already?

For nigh on a century now.


Posted by: Matt F | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 12:21 PM
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If he fetched up in certain kinds of employment pools (art administration, for example), I think he'd probably be a solid hire.

But if he were socially eligible to climb the ranks in art administration, he would already have all the family money he needs.

(Maybe JL's experience is different, but art administration in my experience is a matter of legacy. The blood runs thicker and bluer than water in D.C.)


Posted by: Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 12:23 PM
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I'm thisclose to deputizing Sir Kraab.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 12:24 PM
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alright

Has that battle been lost already?

I know. Sad isn't it?

Related: I have given up the ghost on "hopefully." I think the language has evolved to make it truly mean "I hope that in the future . . . ." Plus, it's useful to have such a word ("'Hopefully, I'll get laid soon,' said teo.") and less useful to have "teo waited hopefully to get laid."

But I'll defend "fewer" for countable nouns to the death.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 12:24 PM
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just occurred to me, lb--your association of lowercase with squeaky cartoon characters may owe something to archy & mehitabel.
http://www.donmarquis.com/readingroom/archybooks/coming.html

drawings by the guy who drew krazy kat, too.


Posted by: kid bitzer | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 12:24 PM
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106. "Period" unless I'm sending a telegram in 1944

I had a boss who was quite elderly at the time of my employment (he has since met his ultimate reward). When he would send a fax he would always write "stop" at the end of a sentance like he was sending a telegram. Plus ca change.


Posted by: Tassled Loafered Leech | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 12:25 PM
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w-lfs-n, I've already got the badge. I was on the grammar team in high school. But I thank you for your condescending approval all the same.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 12:26 PM
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"'Hopefully, I'll get laid soon,' said teo."

It seems I am now an all-purpose example.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 12:31 PM
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130: I'm OK with "hopefully" for exactly that reason. "It is to be hoped that..." really doesn't work. But "alright" continues to grate, as does the trend of verbing the hell out of every noun around. "Parent" as a verb bothers me a lot but probably shouldn't; "rear" doesn't work as well for that purpose as it once did. "Gift" as a verb bugs the hell out of me because it's so pointless, "give" being alive and well, but I suppose the point is to sound all legal and shit.


Posted by: Not Prince Hamlet | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 12:31 PM
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Grammar team?

There's a funny joke involving repurposing a 2-4-6-8 cheer, but I don't have it in me.

I will note, however, that 8 rhymes with "punctuate."


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 12:32 PM
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There are fewer sets of all sets that do not contain themselves as members mentioned in online conversation nowadays.


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 12:33 PM
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verbing the hell out of every noun around

This only bothers me when the noun in question is "party".


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 12:34 PM
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I got utterly pwned by my own fucking dictionary on loan/lend a couple weeks ago. I was ready to burn the thing.

The worst thing is that this disrespects my late mother, one of whose major grammar peeves (and she had plenty - second generation English teacher) it was.

Why do you need loan for a verb when you've got lend right there?


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 12:34 PM
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136: Yup. There's even a yearbook photo, which I should scan & post.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 12:35 PM
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The Apostropher does not party hard.


Posted by: Matt F | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 12:35 PM
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Apostropher carouses.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 12:36 PM
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"rear" doesn't work as well for that purpose as it once did.

Yeah, the rear has started to be multipurpose these days.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 12:36 PM
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I prefer to roister.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 12:37 PM
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the rear has started to be multipurpose

Aww, Ned's ready for The Mineshaft.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 12:37 PM
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The people sending me resumes in the mail could be making all manner of typos, but I don't know about it. I don't read them. I usually don't even open the envelopes.

I used to feel like I ought to do so, even though I'm not advertising, and not looking. But day after day, 4 or 5 resumes a day, it's just so pointless.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 12:39 PM
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The woman sitting behind me just used "interface" as a verb. Would it be wrong to spill an extremely hot cup of coffee on her?


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 12:39 PM
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It's telling that this thread turns to grammar and usage and every other thread on the site instantly dies.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 12:39 PM
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Spilling coffee on her would be a form of interfacing.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 12:40 PM
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someone wanna explain to me their objections to 'alright'?

i mean, i'm pretty prescriptionist myself. prefer 'fewer' for count nouns. discourage split infinitives. smack people for confusing 'imply/infer' or 'compose/comprise'.

but i'm just not seeing what's offensive about 'alright'.

not only does it have the sanction of the oed, it even has the sanction of pete townsend.

so the problem is?


Posted by: kid bitzer | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 12:41 PM
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It's telling pathetic that this thread turns to grammar and usage and every other thread on the site instantly dies.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 12:41 PM
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150 gets it right. Nobody uses "alright" in such a way that they are thinking of the words "all" and "right". So why keep wasting space and employing an adjective that awkwardly contains a space?


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 12:42 PM
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152--
eh. i'm not so worried about wasting space.

but i think more expressive options is better than fewer, and when there are expressive options in spoken language, it's nice to be able to represent them in writing.

"how did he do on his test?" "alright."

"how did he do on his test?" "all right."

those are different statements--different truth conditions--and in spoken english have different prosodies and stress contours.

the variation in spelling reflects that.


Posted by: kid bitzer | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 12:47 PM
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so the problem is?

As it turns out, the kids are not all right.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 12:48 PM
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154--
exactly. and they can be alright notwithstanding that fact.


Posted by: kid bitzer | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 12:49 PM
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But they won't be fooled again.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 12:50 PM
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Also, nobody worry about me.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 12:51 PM
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84 keeps making me laugh.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 12:56 PM
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O mighty, finicky Unfoggers! I have a question. I am preparing a document--to be posted on the wall, containing instructions--and I need the font to be imposing. The font must convey to people that they have no option but to do what is expected of them. No happy little Didot, no retro Futura--just a font with expectations. What do you suggest?


Posted by: Frowner | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 1:04 PM
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Helvetica.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 1:06 PM
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Fraktur is hard to read, but Helvetica is actually Nazi.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 1:06 PM
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Everything that reasonably can be should be written in Garamond 11. Many many years from now this will be a court rule when I am a (traffic court) judge.


Posted by: washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 1:07 PM
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I once got a resume in Comic Sans.

Late as always, but yeah, we got one of those for a job posted earlier this year. It was made worse by the fact that, like so many poor applicants, the writer went on to dwell on how much she liked art, all the museums she had visited, etc. You could tell that she really wanted to work here (or in a place like she imagined this to be) even as her letter demonstrated that she was completely unsuitable to the position. It was rather sad.


Posted by: JL | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 1:08 PM
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"Gift" as a verb bugs the hell out of me

Yes.

I was surprise to read in an early edition of S&W a rant against "contact" as a verb. I have to admit I don't give it a second thought, and use it myself all the time. Maybe the tipping point was the web, and all of those "Contact Us" links.

My primary objection to "alright," I am slightly embarrassed to say, is that it looks lower-class. Ditto "alot." I have known a lot of middle/upper class people who were lousy writers, but that prejudice sticks with me.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 1:10 PM
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Bertham Bold.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 1:11 PM
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SAS Monospace Bold.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 1:12 PM
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the best complaint I ever heard against "alot" focussed on the fact that you would never say "alittle"


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 1:12 PM
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Impact can be good for headlines and Helvetica is good for text, assuming it's fairly short. Sans serif is harder to read.

Also consider Impact or similar (I love Franklin Gothic Demi Condensed, but it's not standard in Word) to bold a few choice words or phrases within the text.

Reverses are good (white text, black background) when used sparingly.

(Yes, I'm also a layout geek.)


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 1:13 PM
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162: Garamond is elegant, true, but no one around here gives a fig for elegance. And what is the mystery document, you may well ask?

You see, the lab has a lunchroom. I don't clean the lunchroom, because I am a secretary and not a lunch lady. Also, I eat at my desk and read Unfogged, and thus do not contribute to the amazing sea of detritus that builds up. We must, therefore, have a lunch-room cleaning roster. I do not myself care, but the director of the institute does.

Now, given my knowledge of the the lab people, I know that one or two will follow through; five or six will honestly forget; and the ones who are here for a year before they go to dental school and some of the grad students will consider it beneath them, because they are, like, professionals.

I am therefore trying to make it as compelling-looking as possible.


Posted by: Frowner | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 1:13 PM
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It's possible to be a layout geek and use Word? Who knew?


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 1:14 PM
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169, that's exactly what I was imagining it was.

Maybe the names of the people should be in a different font from the rest of the flyer. And a different color. And be blinking. Anything to not get ignored.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 1:16 PM
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169: Be sure to include: "If you don't wash the dishes, don't fucking complain about the maggots."


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 1:16 PM
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Frowner--Arial bold small caps, maybe?

I still think Garamond 11 is lovely, but it is not imposing. I mainly use Times New Roman for everything these days.

I am somewhat sympathetic to stiff cover letters, because I hate writing them, and to typos in resumes, because I once managed to send out 27 clerkship applications containing a typo (they were due right after the bar exam & right before I had to leave town for a family obligation). But there are limits.


Posted by: Katherine | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 1:16 PM
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172: I bet you think you're kidding, don't you?


Posted by: Frowner | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 1:18 PM
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I am with Katherine. Stick with Times New Roman. 12 pt


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 1:18 PM
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12 pt? This is going to be posted on the wall. The size should be as big as possible .


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 1:20 PM
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The last place I worked had "Your Mother Doesn't Live Here" in the kitchen.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 1:21 PM
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It's possible to be a layout geek and use Word? Who knew?

Possible, but excruciating. But no one will buy me Quark. I used to use PageMaker, but that has its own limitations.

I have developed a lot of workarounds over the years.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 1:22 PM
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清扫!

Also, tie chair use to being on the cleanup roster-- no cleanup slot, no sitting down.


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 1:22 PM
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Possible, but excruciating.

I guess that's what I imagined....


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 1:23 PM
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176: That's why I said Helvetica. I hate it in a page of text, but for a large print sign, it's great.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 1:23 PM
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173: Yay for small caps! TEXT IN ALL CAPS IS VERY HARD TO READ BECAUSE THE LETTERS DON'T HAVE DISTINGUISHABLE SHAPES. Small caps are better, and prettier, but also require a light touch.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 1:25 PM
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I think there's a balance in grammar correction and punctiliousness. Applications and resumes we know to check and recheck, so that the person who doesn't either can't see the error, or doesn't care.

But in comments here, all sorts of errors creep in that are due to speed, and fluency, and being relaxed. Comma faults, spelling words by their sound, and the failure to distinguish its/it's, the varieties of all right and so on. I see them when others do it, or after I've posted in my own, much more than when I'm writing; I think we all do and don't think anybody needs to apologize for it.

But wanting within reason to be both fluent and correct has had beneficial effects on my writing, and I seem, to myself anyway, to be getting better at both the more I do it.


Posted by: I don't pay | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 1:27 PM
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Unnecessarily long article, but I do love Clearview for road signs.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 1:28 PM
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184: That is amazing -- the difference between Highway Gothic and Clearview does literally feel to me as though my vision grew more acute, rather than that the typeface changed.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 1:30 PM
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But no one will buy me Quark. I used to use PageMaker, but that has its own limitations

I used PageMaker, and have used Quark for the Classic OS, never in OSX. Indesign appears to be PageMaker's successor, but I've never used it.


Posted by: I don't pay | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 1:30 PM
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清扫!

Google translates this as "Dissection!"


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 1:30 PM
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And NCP? If you're reading, check your gmail -- I could use an NC defense attorney referral.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 1:31 PM
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Sweet, LB's going to jail for smuggling tobaccy.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 1:33 PM
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'Shine, actually. Had some problems with the revenooers.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 1:34 PM
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Related: I have given up the ghost on "hopefully." I think the language has evolved to make it truly mean "I hope that in the future . . . ." Plus, it's useful to have such a word....

I love the Kraab, but it was a stupid rule in the first place. While "Ogged hopefully approached the lifeguard" has its place, "Hopefully, he'll be more discrete about staring at her ass next time" is no more objectionable than "Luckily, he was uninjured when she slapped him" or "Thankfully, he's giving it up to become a monk". I feel similarly about the objections to "literally" as a general intensifier ("really" or "truly" don't cause any of the same sniping), although the original meaning is a useful one.


Posted by: snarkout | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 1:37 PM
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I used babelfish, and asked for "Clean up!" A grad school friend would sweep detritus from the table onto the floor after a meal ( he had grown up in India in a house full of servants) and when called on it, reply "man, what can I do?" in all innocence. One of the recent Chinese premiers had a rare character in his name-- Deng, I think, and there were complications.


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 1:38 PM
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If SK objects to those other sentences as well, I duly applaud her for consistency.


Posted by: snarkout | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 1:39 PM
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I got dinged once for "hopefully" in college. Now I'm thinking I should write the prof and tell him he's a dinosaur. I think it might amuse him.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 1:40 PM
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184, 185: I watched the slideshow and see the virtues of Clearview, but in the first, Hellertown Bethlehem example, the Gothic was somehow a little easier for me see. Possibly just familiarity.


Posted by: I don't pay | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 1:41 PM
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191: I'm with you on 'hopefully' (that is, it's the same construction as one that's completely unobjectionable with respect to a whole bunch of other adverbs), but I'm still going to bitch about 'literally'. If that distinction goes, it's nothing more than another synonym for 'really'. (Admittedly, the process may have gone too far already -- I have to watch myself on 'literally' and do screw it up on occasion.)


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 1:43 PM
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194 - Sentence adverbs shall not kill ape!


Posted by: snarkout | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 1:44 PM
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Oh, snarky, a foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 1:48 PM
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If that distinction goes, it's nothing more than another synonym for 'really'.

But it's not more than another synonym for "really"! "Really", "literally", and "truly" are meant to designate that something is the real, literal truth, right? I see what you're saying about the value of preserving the meaning, but it's bizarre to me that this has become a marker of poor writing to some people; I think rfts found an example of Austen using it once. (I hope I am not misremembering an example of J.L. Austin's usage.)


Posted by: snarkout | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 1:48 PM
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Here's a page on German typefaces by the anti-Apostropher (austral, antipodal). Schaftstiefelgrotesk is aparently the most distinctively Nazi face. Helvetica is later but was similar to many Nazi fonts. The Valve was a little off, it turns out.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 1:49 PM
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I literally never misuse "literally."


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 1:49 PM
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Walden Pwned.


Posted by: snarkout | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 1:49 PM
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(Someone's going through the archives right now looking for my errors, aren't they?)


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 1:50 PM
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199: I'm not understanding you. 'Literally' means to me that 'the following statement, which might appear to be hyperbolic or metaphoric, is not, it is straight factual reportage.' When it's used in front of a statement that is actually hyperbolic or metaphoric, as so many people do but I wish they wouldn't, what does it add other than emphasis, like 'really'?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 1:51 PM
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People sometimes use "literally" when what they're saying is actually metaphorical or is some way less than literal. That's the error.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 1:52 PM
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The one that bothers me is "pitiful," even though the definition that should follow from breaking the word into its parts is now considered archaic. That, and nauseous/nauseated. Stupid evolving language.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 1:54 PM
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soon once meant right now, immediately. Literally followed by a simile gets me; googling "literally * like -feel " turns up a bunch of these.


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 1:54 PM
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I'm literally dying over here at the fact that we have yet another fucking grammar thread.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 1:54 PM
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The grammar of fucking; now that's a whole different topic.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 1:55 PM
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I know what the error is, I make it myself pretty frequently. Snark seems to be saying that even in the erroneous usage, 'literally' still has some value as distinct from 'really', and I'm not sure what that value is.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 1:55 PM
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I like this from Snarkout's link "to some, efficiency apparently smacks of haste and compromise"


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 1:56 PM
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200: ANOTHER apostropher? I should have trademarked the damn word.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 1:56 PM
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That, and nauseous/nauseated.

What's the difference?

Should "nauseous" mean "nauseating" instead of "nauseated"? Maybe it's an unnecessary word no matter what it means.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 1:57 PM
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nauseous/nauseated is a lost cost, although I teach it to my kids. I try not to make these mistakes at the same time I try not to judge them too harshly.


Posted by: I don't pay | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 1:57 PM
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I am saying that "literally" is evolving in the same way that the adverb forms of "real" and "true" did. Unlike my pro-sentence adverb stance, this one is straight descriptivism on my part, but if Sir Kraab said that my lexical laxity were "genuinely staggering", would you expect her to genuinely have staggered about the room?


Posted by: snarkout | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 1:58 PM
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s/b lost cause, of course.


Posted by: I don't pay | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 1:59 PM
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Should "nauseous" mean "nauseating" instead of "nauseated"?

Yes, it most certainly should.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 1:59 PM
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"Nauseous" and "nauseating" are a particularly annoying pair when someone corrects your usage as you're trying not to retch.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 1:59 PM
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210 - Ah, no; I'm saying that in the original usage, "literally" has value, but that it's hardly surprising that the word is being used the exact same way that every other word meaning "truly" has been (that is, to mean "metaphorically").


Posted by: snarkout | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 2:00 PM
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"No, pumpkin, you're puking your guts out right now because you're nauseated. The 3-day-old sushi was nauseous."


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 2:00 PM
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Cala pwned.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 2:00 PM
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There are two ways to misuse literally:
(1) to mean "really":
"I literally hate you"

(2) to mean "figuratively":
"Ahmadinejad literally comes to Columbia with blood on his hands"*

*actual quote.


Posted by: Katherine | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 2:01 PM
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215: I understand you now. I think there's a real difference there, but I'm getting stuck figuring out why.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 2:02 PM
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There are two ways to misuse literally:
(1) to mean "really":
"I literally hate you"

I've never heard this. If I had, it wouldn't bother me like the other one does.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 2:03 PM
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"Literally" isn't quite a general intensifier (like "really") -- instead, it signals that the speaker considers the phrasing of the modified word/phrase/whatever to be especially apt.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 2:03 PM
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I think that it's time for a masturbation thread, or something about the coot migration. This thread is literally inconscionable. Also, it will soon be the unique Google hit for "literally inconscionable".


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 2:03 PM
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I think the difference is that "literally" is our last stand. If that goes the way of "truly," "genuinely," etc., we'll have no word left that means "actually, truly, in the real word did in fact happen." Though maybe "actually" is still in the race, come to think of it.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 2:04 PM
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In the '84 keynote address at the Democratic National Convention, Mario Cuomo remembered his father "literally bleeding from the soles of his feet." Context and his unusual rhetorical competence meant you understood that to be the original meaning, even though the use as a simple amplifier was already common then.


Posted by: I don't pay | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 2:05 PM
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195: Agreed. Clearview looks bunched up and dim to me in the Hellertown Bethlehem example, as compared to Highway Gothic. Familiarity may well account for the difference, but I'm not so sure...


Posted by: NickFranklin | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 2:05 PM
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227: This kind of precession is normal, because people routinely lie and fudge. A new word would have to be invented, except that pomo has taught us that literally nothing is actually true or real.

Duh.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 2:06 PM
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215: what do you mean? Was there a time when "genuinely staggering" WOULD have meant "actually making me physically stagger"? If not, isn't this just more evidence that there's no good substitute for "literally" as in "not figuratively"? Whereas you have "genuinely," "really," "truly", etc. to choose from if you want a more general term.


Posted by: Katherine | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 2:07 PM
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I think that it's time for a masturbation thread

Sounds like somebody needs a little anal massage.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 2:08 PM
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I think the difference is that "literally" is our last stand. If that goes the way of "truly," "genuinely," etc., we'll have no word left that means "actually, truly, in the real word did in fact happen."

We still have "I shit you not."


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 2:09 PM
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195, 229: Honestly? That's weird -- I wonder if I was looking at the right labels for the two signs. Clearview looked night and day easier for me to read; as if I'd cleaned my glasses between the two signs.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 2:10 PM
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Hey, I don't complain when you blather on about anal massage. I just stop reading.

Damn, pwned by apo on preview.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 2:11 PM
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234: Clearview was the top example, right?


Posted by: NickFranklin | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 2:11 PM
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236: No, it was the bottom. You agree with everybody else, Nick.


Posted by: I don't pay | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 2:12 PM
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233 is excellent.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 2:12 PM
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Goddammit. That was inevitable.

I mean: Clearview was the bottom example, right?


Posted by: NickFranklin | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 2:13 PM
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231 - The OED makes it clear how hard drawing these distinctions is. From "truly":

5. a. Genuinely, really, actually, in fact, in reality; sincerely, unfeignedly.


Posted by: snarkout | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 2:13 PM
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TROLL ALERT 236

A road sign in Highway Gothic, top, and one in Clearview.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 2:13 PM
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"I shit you not" does not mean "I sound like I could be using a metaphor, but I'm really not."


Posted by: Katherine | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 2:14 PM
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For god's sake, I really did mean that I found the bottom example in the linked article to be bunched up and dim. I will now return to my usual seat in the balcony.


Posted by: NickFranklin | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 2:15 PM
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It does kind of mean "the following may sound hyperbolic, but isn't meant to be", at least sometimes.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 2:16 PM
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Alot and alright are abominations and people who use them should be shot. Literally.

Nauseous/nauseated, sadly, is an error I make all the time.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 2:16 PM
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That said, I am tired of feeling nauseated, but after the chiro and the massage, my shoulder feels somewhat better. No idea how the spider bite on the ass is doing, though.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 2:17 PM
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Jack Paar's "I kid you not" was a cleaned-up-for-tv version of isyn. Adults got it, children didn't. It meant "this is funny, but it's not a joke, although it should be."


Posted by: I don't pay | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 2:19 PM
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More OED -- "literally":
b. Used to indicate that the following word or phrase must be taken in its literal sense.
Now often improperly used to indicate that some conventional metaphorical or hyperbolical phrase is to be taken in the strongest admissible sense. (So, e.g., in quot. 1863.)

English has always been on the decline. I blame the goddamned Normans.


Posted by: snarkout | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 2:20 PM
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Typical meanings of I shit you not.

1. "It looks like I am exaggerating or speaking metaphorically, but I am being quite literal."

2. "It looks like I am pulling a joke on your, but I am not."

3. "It looks like I am pouring feces on your head, but really it is just chocolate."


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 2:22 PM
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Alot and alright are abominations

I'm with you on alot but
alright:all right::altogether:all together

Alright and all right have different meaning from in precisely the same way that altogether and all together do.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 2:23 PM
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Ok, I'm just yanking your chain.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 2:23 PM
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Another bowdlerization.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 2:23 PM
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250: Nonsense.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 2:23 PM
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Apo is hinting to us that he's naked.


Posted by: snarkout | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 2:24 PM
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"I shit you not" can also mean "I shit you". But you're supposed to get the joke. Like "Would I lie to you?"


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 2:24 PM
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"Who do you think is shittin' you, me or your shittin' eyes?"


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 2:32 PM
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255: If de Man had used "I shit you not" in his debunking of the arche bit, the world would be a better place.


Posted by: NickFranklin | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 2:34 PM
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253: Read the usage note here. That's precisely the difference between alright and all right.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 2:34 PM
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Who de Man?


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 2:35 PM
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different meaning from in precisely

That, however, was indeed nonsense.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 2:37 PM
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Well, I'm off to massage coot assholes. Thanks a lot, motherfuckers.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 2:38 PM
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You can't resolve questions like "alright" with the dictionary on your desk as you once could, for reasons Dwight Macdonald explained in his essay The String Untuned It was a review of sorts of the Webster's Third International, on which most desktops are based. Macdonald pointed out that Webster's had switched from "prescriptive" to "descriptive," under the influence of linguistics. He thought the change baneful, and entirely ideological. The upshot is that "alright" will be listed as a synonym of "all right," simply because people commonly use it that way.


Posted by: I don't pay | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 2:38 PM
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259: You de Man, Ned. I shit you not.


Posted by: NickFranklin | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 2:41 PM
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IDP: It makes perfect sense to use dictionaries who gather information descriptively for prescriptive purposes. Your goal in writing is to communicate with your contemporaries. A snapshot of how language is used at the time will give you a good sense of their expectations. It can, for instance, let you know that your reader will be alright with you distinguishing "alright" and "all right"


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 2:45 PM
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Eh. 'Alright' still sets my back up as an unnecessary colloquialism -- I don't like it in writing. But I'm sure in fifty years you people will have won.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 2:47 PM
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264: but some of them won't be alright with it. They will literally flip out on you.


Posted by: Katherine | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 2:57 PM
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I don't really have a problem with "alright", though I don't think I use it. I get annoyed when I think a change is making the language function worse. When people start using "literally" to mean "figuratively" or "begs the question" to mean "raise the question," you're changing the meaning of terms for which *there isn't an adequate substitute*. Whereas with "nauseous", well, people can always say "nauseating" & they're more likely to be understood. And with "hopefully", the "corrupted" version actually seems like a more useful word.

I also have a problem with words that I think serve no useful purpose: what does "utilize" tell you that "use" doesn't? Why "enplanement" rather than "boarding"? (Though I can be a hypocrite--I love "defenestrate", and hate "detrain" and "deplane", even though they're sort of similarly constructed).


Posted by: Katherine | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 3:03 PM
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266 - Hopefully most of them won't care.


Posted by: snarkout | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 3:03 PM
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But they aren't using "literally" to mean "figuratively". They're just using it in a way that doesn't exclude applying it to figurative language.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 3:06 PM
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Getting upset about 'literally' indicates poor understanding of the literal/metaphorical divide in the mind


Posted by: yoyo | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 3:33 PM
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I get annoyed when I think a change is making the language function worse.

One of the few usage nits I pick is misuse of "comprise," precisely because I think the complementarity of comprise and compose is rather nice, and worth preserving. All though the battle is clearly lost.


Posted by: cerebrocrat | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 3:54 PM
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Reading a cover letter that used "umbrella" as a verb...


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 4:15 PM
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272: May we see the sentence? I'll be away, but it seems interesting.


Posted by: I don't pay | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 4:18 PM
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My position umbrellas a wide multitude of responsibilities


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 4:20 PM
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Reading a cover letter that used "umbrella" as a verb...

Opinionated Grandma is applying? WHEN THE YOUNG HOOLIGAN WOULD NOT TURN OF HIS WALKPOD I UMBRELLAED HIM.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 4:22 PM
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My position umbrellas a wide multitude of responsibilities

Whitmanesque! I umbrella multitudes!


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 4:22 PM
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276.---I fucking love it.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 4:25 PM
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"Umbrellatize" is of course the more professional usage, or "umbrellate."


Posted by: Felix | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 4:25 PM
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I do know an eccentric lady who umbrellaed a bus.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 4:26 PM
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"umbroil"


Posted by: Felix | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 4:26 PM
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258--
i agree with apo. see the contrasting pair in 153.

no one has yet given any argument why there is something wrong with 'alright' except vague nose-in-the-air pronouncements.

i agree with katherine in 267 that the test has got to be:
does this make the language work better or not?
confusing "compose" and "comprise" makes it work worse.

having different spellings for "alright" and "all right"-- two different words that we already have in *spoken* English, witness the difference in pronunciation and meaning--makes the language work better.


Posted by: kid bitzer | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 4:33 PM
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So that's what it means to take umbrage.


Posted by: neil | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 4:34 PM
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My calendar has a list in the back titled Commonly Misused Words. Most of them are familiar: affect/effect, complement/compliment, passed/past.

They also list discover/invent. Is this really something that people commonly confuse? I have honestly never run across usage complaints about it, and I know a lot of language geeks (in addition to you all).


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 5:01 PM
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And while I"m keeping the thread alive: I was an adult before I heard anyone confuse antidote and anecdote. Now it seems to be reasonably common among a subset of the population. Is the problem getting worse or am I just around different people?


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 5:03 PM
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I'm not getting the purported difference between "alright" and "all right." Examples?


Posted by: Not Prince Hamlet | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 5:12 PM
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(a) Your answers to these questions are all right! A+
(b) Your answers to these questions are alright. B-


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 5:17 PM
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purported difference between "alright" and "all right.

Alright = okay
All right = correct

A'ight?


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 5:17 PM
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Pwned by the foxtail.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 5:18 PM
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285: It's not nearly so subtle as that between "y'all" and "all y'all".


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 5:26 PM
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Hey, type people from back in the 160s and 70s: Go see the Helvetica documentary! It's awesome! It's also out on Netflix at the beginning of November.

Really, it's good. Though you'll be seeing Helvetica everywhere for weeks afterwards.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 5:34 PM
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Is the Nazi question addressed? The information I've been able to find is inconclusive. Apparently the Nazis did prefer some proto-Helvetican sans-serif.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 5:42 PM
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All together now: "Madeleine All Right and Madeleine Alright are entirely different people altogether."


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 5:43 PM
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I'm just going to read this thread backwards and make easy puns.

What's the plural of antidote?

The peoples of the Confoederatio Helvetica used to make incursions into the Times New Roman Empire.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 5:46 PM
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Argh argh argh. Partner: "You haven't cut anything substantive, have you? Just make a first pass through it, and then circulate it to me and the client so we can decide what to cut."

Dude, if you don't want me to do the work, don't tell me to do it. Anyway, it's down to 22 pages and not missing much of interest. And I'm going home. Bleah.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 5:47 PM
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OK, 286 makes sense, but somehow I've managed to use the language for several years now without ever needing to distinguish those usages in a way that context couldn't handle. And I still think "alright" is ugly as hell. Will ponder.


Posted by: Not Prince Hamlet | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 5:49 PM
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"Impactful" is another one I hate. And I hate Webster's for not putting up any resistance at all.

Though I assume there's some limit to descriptivism--they're not going to list "anecdote" and "antidote" as synonyms no matter how many people confuse them, right?


Posted by: Katherine | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 5:49 PM
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294: Definitely not just communication issues.


Posted by: Not Prince Hamlet | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 5:50 PM
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I plan to write a memoir entitled: "These People Can't All Be This Bad, It Must Be Me" at some point.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 5:54 PM
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Academia kind of sucks, but the law associate/partner system is like German academia: the partners are full professors and you, as the assistant prof, must not only be deferential to, but also actually do work for.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 6:02 PM
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Nazi question? Helvetica was 1957. Don't know about any Nazi connection, John. But Akzidenz Grotesk was the favored sans serif before Helvetica.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 6:06 PM
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them


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 6:07 PM
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IME partners don't so much care about deference for its own sake. The hierarchy in law firms is clear enough that they don't need the sort of precision penis-measuring that academics do.


Posted by: Not Prince Hamlet | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 6:11 PM
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Whew! I'd be out of luck if it came down to penis-measuring.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 6:13 PM
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I don't know how they do it exactly, but women win those contests with some regularity.


Posted by: Not Prince Hamlet | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 6:18 PM
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Actually, the world has firmly and decisively rejected the Nazis' beliefs about typeface.


Posted by: neil | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 6:37 PM
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Go see the Helvetica documentary! It's awesome! It's also out on Netflix at the beginning of November.

The netflix thing is good, because theatrical screenings seem quite short-lived. A few days in one city, then gone!

I suck at writing cover letters, so all the on-topic portions of this thread freak me out.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 6:41 PM
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I suck at writing cover letters

This surprises me.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 7:10 PM
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Have you seen his About page, apo?


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 7:13 PM
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I just thought I'd gift you some North Dakota shit. Norht Dakota: where Swedes are exotic.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 7:13 PM
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306--

but i'm pretty sure you are wizard wicked at editing them once someone else hands you a draft.
so just get someone else to do your first draft, and then you can put the final touches on.

in fact, we could compile the first draft as a group project right here on unfogged!

deer sirz,

i is named ben. i wantz a job. in acadeemia, please. big thouts, prefurrd.


Posted by: kid bitzer | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 7:14 PM
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Have you seen his About page, apo?

On the front page, in his response to his persecutors, he gives a list of his flaws, including "I am an orphan." His subsequent clarification as to when, exactly, his parents died suggests something of a stretch in the definition.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 7:21 PM
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Antiqua Roman was apparently the preferred Nazi typeface. NOT Fraktur. However, some proto-Helvetica was also favored.

This is important because The Valve covered it. Apparently Star Wars used Helvetica because it seemed fascist.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 7:21 PM
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"I am an orphan."

I meant Ben's About page, but don't let me stop the fun...


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 7:22 PM
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Well I'm sure Ben as at least been disowned.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 7:22 PM
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I see I'm also in the wrong thread. I blame the wine and the dinner and the small child I am trying to attend to. Most of my energy is devoted to not putting the wrong one of these in the oven.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 7:23 PM
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As long as the oven is off, you can put any of them in there.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 7:28 PM
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305 is beautiful. I imagine Hitler getting his friend to furtively pass the note to Austria. "Do you like Adolf? Check yes or no."


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 7:31 PM
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But 305 is wrong, wrong, wrong!!

Fraktur is a Jewish typeface, as #312 explains. The Jews forced them to use Fraktur before their takeover of Austria. Afterwards they set things straight.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 7:37 PM
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Apparently Star Wars used Helvetica because it seemed fascist.

Well that is just dumb.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 7:50 PM
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You're not a Nazi, are you?


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 8:06 PM
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305--
nice touch--it's not just a vereinigung, it's a weidervereinigung.

back together again, the way it used to be.
kinda like a hall and oates reunion tour. or peaches and herb.


Posted by: kid bitzer | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 8:19 PM
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I don't know how they do it exactly

Yes you do: follow the money.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 10-12-07 10:00 PM
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Does anyone else have to deal with colleagues who use the verb "to incentivize"? And do it seriously?


Posted by: marcus | Link to this comment | 10-13-07 9:36 AM
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I've just found my father-in-law's Webster's Collegiate, 5th edition, based on the Second Edition of Webster's New International Dictionary, 1934. The Third, on which most copies I have in my house were based, was published in 1961, and is what Dwight Macdonald was reacting to.

al'right', adv. All right;—a form commonly used but not recognized by authorities as proper.

and

al•right adv (or adj) : all right

See the difference? The usage hadn't changed much, but the attitude toward it had, and now they're in fact withholding information most people would like to have, because they no longer approve of that way of thinking.

One of those pre-war Collegiates might be worth looking for in a used bookstore.


Posted by: I don't pay | Link to this comment | 10-13-07 12:28 PM
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325

Whee. I was reading 324 and thinking, "Ya know, I think I've got that..." and yes, I do! Blue-backed Websters New Collegiate (actually the 6e of Collegiate), published 1959, which gives the definition of alright as: "All right. The form alright, though often used, is not recognized by authorities as proper." I guess they changed it slightly. So someone wouldn't have to buy pre-war copy, the copy would need to be merely pre-'61.

I got my first copy from my mother when I was a kid, and I inherited my grandfather's copy when he died, and I have long preferred it to all others. ("I'm gonna look it up in the blue dictionary, the red one sucks.") Now I know why!

For your amusement, the Encyclopaedia Brittanica dictionary gives the definition of alright as: "All right: a spelling not yet considered acceptable."

max
['Cool.']


Posted by: max | Link to this comment | 10-13-07 1:40 PM
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326

(a) Your answers to these questions are all right! A+
(b) Your answers to these questions are alright. _______ B-

Okay.
Adequate.
Acceptable.
Fair.
Fair enough.
Fine.
Decent.
Good enough.
Not bad.
So-so.

You people are trying to make up excuses for "alright," which gets used for "all right" by people who do not know how to spell. Not. Okay.

(Aight, on the other hand, is fine; it functions basically as a casual greeting or agreement, and the point is that it's oral slang, rather than people just being stupid.)


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 10-13-07 1:55 PM
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