Re: Sleepy

1

In an effort to improve quality, I move that we don't allow any posts on Unfogged until after 9:30am EST.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 7:18 AM
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Sleep deprivation really blows. I don't know what's wrong with me, but I've just been lying awake in bed until 5am or so each night. I'm trying to remember that I'm still getting rest, so I should stay in bed and not think too hard, but when I finally do get to sleep, I have intense, disturbing dreams, and then waken sort of startled. I'm not unhappy, but I know it's not good for my health, or my teaching.

Oh man, that reminds me; I have an hour-long meeting with The Student Who Mocks Me today. Arg.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 7:20 AM
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I'm an adult and I could never function if my day started at 7:30.

I'm an adult, and my day does start at 7:30. Now I have an excuse for my lack of productivity.


Posted by: mike d | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 7:28 AM
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When Keegan was in kindergarten in the Chapel Hill schools, I had to have him at by school by 7:45. When we moved to Durham the next year, I couldn't drop him off before 8:45. I don't know what it has meant for his academic success, but I know I'm a hell of a lot happier.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 7:28 AM
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One result is that kids get hooked on coffee earlier. My wife taught 5th grade (10 year olds for you non-educators) and many kids showed up each morning with their cup of Dunkin' Donuts. I blame the Big Coffee lobby.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 7:29 AM
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"In the year preceding the time change, math and verbal SAT scores for the top 10 percent of Edina's students averaged 1288. A year later, the top 10 percent averaged 1500, an increase that couldn't be attributed to any other variable."

While I'm in complete support of having school start later for all grades, the above statement is pure hogwash. If Edna has 150 students (that's pretty close to a max load for a high school teacher), the top 10 percent is a very small N and a shift of 212 points may not even be statistically significant. If someone actually did a multiple regression analysis (which I doubt), there's no way in hell they got significant results by comparing just two years of data with numbers that small.

Bah. I haven't had enough coffee yet.


Posted by: Nicole | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 7:39 AM
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Edina is a suburb, not a teacher.


Posted by: Barbar | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 7:42 AM
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7 - Even so, I'll admit the numbers are either really impressive or odd. You'd think it would take more than one year to see that much improvement.


Posted by: Becks | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 7:44 AM
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I think Edina is a big school. I've actually heard of it, and it's one of those "affluent suburbs" where everyone tries to live.

But why wouldn't they cite the information for the entire student body if the change helped everyone?


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 7:44 AM
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Doh!
Now that I've reread the article with caffeine in my brain, I realize that I should have picked a better time and topic for my first Unfogged de-lurk. Edina is the town, not the teacher - so maybe the shift in SAT scores is significant. I'm still skeptical that they have statistically significant results showing that the only variable that affected the shift is time change, though. And I'm curious about how the rest of the populations scores were affected (my guess is not at all, or they would have reported it.)


Posted by: Nicole | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 7:44 AM
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~550 high school seniors.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 7:46 AM
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Edina was mentioned on Unfogged recently.

As for the article, I totally believe it.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 7:49 AM
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But why wouldn't they cite the information for the entire student body if the change helped everyone?

It's Edina. No one cares about the lower 90.


Posted by: terpbball | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 7:54 AM
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There's an interesting capture problem in NY law firms, possibly elsewhere as well. People who make partner in New York BigLaw tend to be people who are very tolerant of sleep deprivation; it's a profession that requires a lot of late nights. The annoying bit is that a large part of the reason it requires a lot of late nights is that you're working with a whole bunch of people who don't really get interested in what they're doing until late afternoon, and want to talk strategy at 11 pm, even when there isn't a real emergency making it necessary. This drives out the people who want their sleep, and the vicious circle continues.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 7:54 AM
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I fell asleep in my first-period physics class almost every day. It was really embarrassing, because I loved physics and really liked my teacher. He was personally insulted, and told me so. I remember taking naps during Spanish exams, figuring that a quick five-minute sleep would be a good investment in my grade.

Part of it wasn't school's fault. I stayed out way too late and had too many jobs and extracurriculars. But now, as an instructor, I see students falling asleep in class, and I think, "What's wrong with you?" I'm busting my ass up there trying to make sure every moment of class time is entertaining and informative, and they're sleeping through it?


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 7:58 AM
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Heh. I had a class in law school that sent me straight to sleep every single meeting -- I think there was something wrong with the ventilation in the room. I'd sit down, and be out like a light for an hour and a half. I was so embarrassed that I took a class I wasn't all that interested in from the same professor the next semester that met in a different room just so I could stay awake through it. Consciousness was enough to raise my grade from a B to an A.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 8:01 AM
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I just remembered why my mom used to say I wasn't getting enough sleep. "Maybe it's guilt, AWB."

Ha, ha. That mom. Always a jokester. Hrm.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 8:03 AM
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If you taught in Catholic school, AWB, you could take the matter into your own hands.

"Maybe THIS will keep you awake!" *WHACK*


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 8:04 AM
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15: Yeah, it's amazing how personal everything students do feels once you're the teacher, and how affecting that is, even when you know that almost certainly there's a better explanation for the behavior in question than that you're a horrible or boring teacher.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 8:05 AM
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19: I mean, you're not a horrible or boring teacher, are you AWB?


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 8:06 AM
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I've just been lying awake in bed until 5am or so each night

Insomnia sucks; hope it goes away. On the other hand, I laughed when I read this, because 5am is generally when I get up.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 8:07 AM
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Well, none of my high school teachers were horrible or boring, either, so I know that my sleeping wasn't trying to communicate something about the quality of the class. I was just tired.

One guy who sits in the front row of my 1:40 class falls asleep while laughing at my jokes, with sort of a little giggling nod, nod, jerk!, giggle, nod, nod, jerk!


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 8:09 AM
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I must have driven teachers nuts. That class was particularly bad, but I was sleeping in class all through college. I have a semester's worth of notes from Classical Electrodynamics that trail off into illegible scribbles and then drift off the page entirely almost every day.

I have the vague recollection that participation in organized sports reliably raises kids' grades. I wonder if there's a connection through physical tiredness--more/deeper sleep--better cognitive functioning.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 8:13 AM
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Well, none of my high school teachers were horrible or boring, either, so I know that my sleeping wasn't trying to communicate something about the quality of the class. I was just tired.

Exactly. It's just that once you're a teacher it's hard to remember that in the moment when you see someone yawn. I was really surprised at the strength of the visceral reaction I had when I first started teaching. Still, I managed to refrain from throwing anything at anybody.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 8:21 AM
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Like, AWB, I spent my senior year mostly napping through my first class. (It was AP Physics, which probably explains my still-shaky grasp on the non-calculus portions of E&M.) The teacher was a sweet guy and a decent teacher who seemed concerned about me, and I got a good grade in the class (the calculus portion of the class was pretty trivial for me), but I look back and am somewhat aghast at how insulting it must have been.


Posted by: snarkout | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 8:21 AM
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14: LB my neighbor works the night shift for Westlaw which initially struck me as odd, why a night shift? Apparently, they get a huge volume of calls from New York at that time.

This as been another episode of random semi-useless anecdotes. Join us next week when we will discuss my other neighbor and epoxy garage floor paint...


Posted by: ukko | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 8:23 AM
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So am I right in thinking that the professor who volunteers to teach the 500-seat non-major intro classes so that he can practice his funny anecdotes has no soul?


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 8:23 AM
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And in that spirit, I just want to say that comment 1 does not indicate that I think Becks is a horrible or boring poster.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 8:24 AM
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my neighbor works the night shift for Westlaw

They do excellent customer support. I have had Westlaw people talking me off metaphorical window ledges many times, often at midnight.

so that he can practice his funny anecdotes has no soul?

Nah, he just always wanted to be a standup comic.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 8:25 AM
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Does anybody really volunteer to teach 500-seat non-major intro classes? I thought that's just what unlucky/unpopular/junion faculty got stuck with.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 8:26 AM
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30: Clearly, "junion" s/b "non-junion"


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 8:27 AM
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I didn't read the article. Does it assume that, because of night time television etc., kids cannot go to bed earlier?


Posted by: sam k | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 8:28 AM
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A kind of vegetable?


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 8:28 AM
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33: The Junion Movement is NOT moribund!


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 8:29 AM
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Which side are jou on, Gonerill? Which side are jou on?


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 8:32 AM
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Adult life starts at 7:30 or when the radio comes on and Bob Edwards (or Steve Inskeep/Renée Montagne) lulls the subject to alertness.


Posted by: Econolicious aka Anonymous D | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 8:32 AM
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the reason it requires a lot of late nights is that you're working with a whole bunch of people who don't really get interested in what they're doing until late afternoon ...

These sound like people who don't get good sleep. Hence afternoons are when activity peaks. Personally I find it takes a lot of careful lifestyle management to get good sleep. Typically, this doesn't happen, so it's ten o' clock starts most days with nothing much meaningful happening before lunch (and it's been like this for most of my working career). There has to be some sort of vicious circle aspect to this.


Posted by: Charlie | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 8:38 AM
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32: Thank you Sam K!

Because, here's the thing. Later school start times might work swell for all you academics with your leisurely mornings, or for all the good and decent families who love their children enough to have a stay-at-home parent, but even if school did not start until 9:30, Rory would still have to be out the door by 7:30 every morning so I can get my train. Come to think of it, Rory's school does start at 9:30.

The obvious (if not always easy) solution is earlier to bed. Or getting over this silly "too young for coffee" foolishness.

By the way, AWB, Rory had been having some trouble falling asleep lately and we got this "Powernaps" cd set (20-minute nap version for me, fall asleep night version for her). Supposedly it's all scientific and brainwaves and blah, blah, blah. Sounds pretty much like white noise and I think it works by boring her to sleep. But it works, which is all that matters. (The 20-min, on the other hand, gets me just enough of a nap to be twice as groggy and cranky...)


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 8:44 AM
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Sort of OT, but how much does New York Mag rock lately? When was the last time the New Yorker had a great story (that Jane Meyer didn't pen)?


Posted by: Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 8:46 AM
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For elementary schoolers early start times make some sense. For high schoolers, they don't, and yet high school usually starts earlier.


Posted by: katherine | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 8:48 AM
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For elementary schoolers early start times make some sense. For high schoolers, they don't, and yet high school usually starts earlier.

My guess would be that the earlier start times are designed to accomodate extracurricular schedules -- so that classes will be done early enough to get the athletes off to practice and so forth.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 8:51 AM
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41: And for the parents to get off to work. My parents' district has had its share of problems having to cancel school due to snow or ice because that decision needs to be made early enough in the morning before parents go off to work.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 9:01 AM
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Or getting over this silly "too young for coffee" foolishness.

Eight year old Sally has been asking for coffee in the mornings, off and on. I figure half and half with milk, it won't do her any harm.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 9:03 AM
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Personally I find it takes a lot of careful lifestyle management to get good sleep.

It certainly means not playing Super Paper Mario until 2 am. As we've learned.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 9:04 AM
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Okay, now I'm starting to think Sally and Rory are twins somehow separated at birth. Rory's been doing the same thing, but specifying the espresso cup size. She also instructed me to go buy some decaf for her.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 9:06 AM
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Eh, they're both raised by lawyers -- the attraction to coffee is probably nurture. I figure she's reacting to seeing me huddled protectively around my first cup in the morning to make sure no one takes it away from me before it restores me to full functioning.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 9:09 AM
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The Student Who Mocks Me

It's because you're old and in the way, AWB.


Posted by: mcmc | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 9:10 AM
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Eh, they're both raised by lawyers --

Which is a little bit like being raised by wolves.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 9:17 AM
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Not really. Wolves are noble, attractive beasts with intense pack loyalty and strong family bonds.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 9:19 AM
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48: True. A pair of twins raised by lawyers were responsible for building Rhome, Texas. In that case, though, it really did only take them a day.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 9:22 AM
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Rhome philsopher Marvel Bubba Smith once said "Rhome good ole Rhome take out the R and it spells Home."

Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 9:27 AM
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Also, in law firms, does only the alpha couple get to breed?


Posted by: Nworb Werdna | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 9:32 AM
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49: Right -- and lawyers are a bunch of vicious, nocturnal predators.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 9:33 AM
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Speaking as someone who can get through by far the best work of the day if I wake at five. By the time I am fully conscious of my surroundings, the good bit of a day's thinking is over.


Posted by: Nworb Werdna | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 9:34 AM
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52: Oh dear, the nature and frequency of breeding in law firms makes my poor, wholesome head spin...


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 9:35 AM
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Rhome (pronounced Rome) is a city in Wise County, Texas, United States. The population was 551 at the 2000 census.

Um, city? 551 people? Does it get to be a metropolis if it makes four figures? Sounds like it could have been built before lunch.


Posted by: OneFatEnglishman | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 9:38 AM
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I suppose "city" is a legal designation. In Pennsylvania, the word "city" includes the 10 or so actual cities, and then a seemingly random assortment of smaller places some of which (Nanticoke? Monessen?) are no more significant than nearby places which go by the lowly designation of "borough".


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 9:55 AM
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56: Well, since you English refer to a place inhabited by over seven million people as a "town", I can see how good old Rhome wouldn't meet your standards for the title of city. But we don't have such hyperinflationary pressures here in Texas, so cities can be had for much cheaper.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 9:57 AM
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the nature and frequency of breeding in law firms makes my poor, wholesome head spin

Inbreeding, certainly. I don't know any lawyers who are dating or married to non-lawyers. Soon the human race will undergo sympatric speciation into two mutually reproductively incompatible populations, Homo faber and Homo litigator.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 9:59 AM
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It's funny. My sleeping cycle is either getting up at around 6 AM and in bed by 11:30 PM (during the week) or go to bed at 3-4 AM and only wake up just on the AM side of noon (weekends and holidays). Used to be I could go to bed at 2 and be awake by 6, but then I hit thirty (and thirty hit back).

Also, no more Coke.

The drink, that is.

And no offense to any teacher here, but most classes can sent you to sleep if it entails half an hour or longer of listening to somebody else talk. Same with meetings. Especially just after lunch.


Posted by: Martin Wisse | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 10:02 AM
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Inbreeding, certainly. I don't know any lawyers who are dating or married to non-lawyers.

I used to think this was true as well, until a colleague took pity on my naivete and enlightened me on the breadth and scope of breeding between lawyers and their support staff. Of course, none of that is "married" and maybe calling it "dating" is unduly generous. But good God, lawyers are sleazy!


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 10:03 AM
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59: I am a counterexample, having interbred with a journalist.

If I have a stereotype, it's that male lawyers marry either female lawyers or women who don't work outside the home much, but rarely a woman with a non-law career. Female lawyers are more all over the map.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 10:06 AM
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The drink, that is.

So you're still on the powder then?


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 10:07 AM
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61: I remain naive -- this firm may be a hotbed of intrigue, but I mostly don't know about about it. (There was one rumor about the Jersey office, but I got that third-hand and it didn't sound true.)


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 10:07 AM
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Evaporated Coke for the frugal?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 10:08 AM
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(There was one rumor about the Jersey office, but I got that third-hand and it didn't sound true.)

Yeah, it turned out it was really just chocolate icecream


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 10:09 AM
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65: Plus it's lower fat, stores better, and some people use it to make Cogurt.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 10:10 AM
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I gurt, you gurt, we all gurt for Cogurt.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 10:10 AM
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because I am a sickly sort and don't have a job, I go to bed around midnight and sleep till 10 or 11 every day. I have to set my alarm to get up before 11. there's kind of not a lot of time to do stuff. I do have interesting dreams. last night I was getting busted in on by the swat team and subsequently beaten on the soles of my feet, so that was maybe too interesting.


Posted by: alameida | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 10:12 AM
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lawyers who are dating or married to non-lawyers

They exist but don't flaunt their mates. A related question: incidence of madness (schizophrenia, suicide, or 1st degree adult relative mentally unable to support self, say?) in legal families. "inappropriate dating" as a label for support staff relations?


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 10:13 AM
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I suppose it's possible that only lawyers at my firm are sleazy. But apparently a memo has recently gone out instructing my peers to educate me as to all the scurrility going on around me. I'm starting to think it would be quicker for someone to just give me a list of the men at this firm who aren't banging someone other than their wives...


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 10:16 AM
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71: the list

hope that helps.


Posted by: I. Cheatham | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 10:18 AM
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Nah, I'm a rotten gossip, and I certainly hear things like that about other firms. Here, I'm just not hooked into the gossip network -- if scurrility were occuring, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't know. I'd have known about any misbehavior at my last firm, and the worst gossip I heard was an unsuccessful attempt to date by a newly single male partner; not terribly scurrilous at all.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 10:20 AM
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married to an economist. Now THEY really inbreed. There was only one other spouse in our circle who wasn't another economist, an economic consultant, going to B school etc. And I think I was the only one who never even took econ. or statistics in college.

3/4 lawyers at my firm are married to non-lawyers.


Posted by: Katherine | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 10:20 AM
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I've tried everything and my natural sleep cycle is pretty much to go to sleep about 2am and get up about 8:30-9am. However, I actually get up at 6:50am every morning. Which pisses me off. I've been doing that for 5 years, and still haven't adjusted. I'm sure my 'clock' is fixed.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 10:29 AM
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There's a good book (with a terrible title) called "Sleepless in America" that talks about the kids/sleep problem.

It's totally real. When we were lame about PK's bedtime, he would get angry a lot more, and bedtime was always a fight. When we finally moved it up to 8, suddenly things started to go amazingly earlier.

The real reason for the 7:30 start time, of course, is that parents need to get their kids to school in time to go to work. (PK's school starts at 8, but they serve breakfast at 7:30 for parents who need that.)


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 10:33 AM
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Also, 7:30 start time for kids is fucking barbaric.

We started school at 8.45.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 10:35 AM
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I had a nice, ninety minute, bus ride to catch up on the shuteye when I was in junior high and high school.

Still, had to be at the bus stop before six, so that was less than ideal.

My route was quite rural: we turned around and headed towards the school only when there were no more roads. A school bus can turn in a surprisingly small area, if there aren't smart asses mis-directing the bus driver. If there are... they usually send another bus to pick you up.


Posted by: TJ | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 10:40 AM
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When we were lame about PK's bedtime

Do you mean PK's bedtime was earlier or later than 8:00 pm before?


Posted by: sam k | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 10:40 AM
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I love that part of Texas.


Posted by: Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 10:40 AM
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(PK's school starts at 8, but they serve breakfast at 7:30 for parents who need that.)

There are some kind, kind people running PK's school!


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 10:42 AM
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Does it assume that, because of night time television etc., kids cannot go to bed earlier?

No. Kids go to bed later than they used to because both parents are working, and with the New 21st Century Work Ethic plus commute times, many of them don't get home until 7 or later.

Which means that even if you don't actually want to spend time with your kids, by the time you've fixed dinner, eaten with them, gotten them into jammies and brushed their teeth and read to them, it's 8:30 at the earliest. Note this leaves zero time for helping them with homework.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 10:50 AM
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82--
i was just talking to some folks who lived in burlington, vt, where their chilluns' grade school provided cereal in class.
this makes a ton of sense to me. we're sort of breakfast fascists around our house, so nobody leaves without a lot of food in 'em, but i know lots of folks can't do that. and improvements in your kids cognitive functioning are improvements in my kid's learning environment.


Posted by: kid bitzer | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 10:51 AM
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81: I think the whole district does it, actually.

79: Meaning he didn't really have a bedtime; like his folks, he's a night person, and we tended to be pretty lax. But no more!


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 10:52 AM
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gotten them into jammies and brushed their teeth and read to them, it's 8:30 at the earliest.

This is the opposite of my bedtime ritual.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 10:57 AM
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You're getting into jammies by 8:30 at the latest?


Posted by: Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 11:00 AM
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the breadth and scope of breeding between lawyers and their support staff.

Breeding in those situations is bad. I suspect that they are just practicing the breeding process.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 11:03 AM
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You're getting into jammies by 8:30 at the latest?

Vice versa.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 11:05 AM
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88: Sexist.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 11:07 AM
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89: maybe just lacks imagination


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 11:08 AM
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89: anti-anatomist.


Posted by: Nworb Werdna | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 11:13 AM
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Essentialist.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 11:18 AM
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Pegophobe.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 11:26 AM
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Also, re: kids bedtimes.

In Czech, there's a kids' story comes on TV at the same time every night. 7pm (I think). When it finishes a little animated man comes on the screen and takes off a paper hat and says 'Good Night' to all the kids. Who now know it's their bed-time.

It totally works, too.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 11:28 AM
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Ah, college, that brief respite when i could skip.

I fell asleep in my first-period physics class almost every day. It was really embarrassing, because I loved physics and really liked my teacher. He was personally insulted, and told me so. I remember taking naps during Spanish exams, figuring that a quick five-minute sleep would be a good investment in my grade.

I slept every day in my ap history and psychologoy classes. My psych teacher liked me though. Not as much as my calc teacher; i see her around town at bookstore or something when i visit my parents and alwyas talk to her. i didn't sleep though, i played calculator games or read books.

and i couldn't stay awake in my crim law class for anything. It had a loud ventilation thingie too. I just hunkered down so my face was behind my computer screen when i felt the sleep coming on.


Posted by: yoyo | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 11:30 AM
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94--
"it totally works, too."

better if the kids understand czech, of course.


Posted by: kid bitzer | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 11:31 AM
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I don't think there is any evidence that coffee is bad for kids. this sleep deprivation probably permanantly fried my brain though.


Posted by: yoyo | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 11:32 AM
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Yes, but they're Communists.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 11:34 AM
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re: 97

There's very little evidence that coffee is bad for anyone despite what certain puritans keep telling us.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 11:35 AM
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Coffee is supposed to be highly beneficial for alcoholics.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 11:38 AM
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99: unless you put lead in it.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 11:38 AM
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Coffee is supposed to be highly beneficial for alcoholics.

At the highest-achieving levels, they pretty much just stick to alcohol though. But coffee can help you get there.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 11:41 AM
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Too much coffee (especially late in the day) can interfere with good sleep, leading to the very sleep-deprivation that compels you to drink it in the first place.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 11:41 AM
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also, melatonin is like the best thing for getting to sleep. the last 3 weeks i've been to bed past 2:30 only like 4-5 times, instead of the constant 6am bedtimes of the prior 6 months.


Posted by: yoyo | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 11:42 AM
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103--
di is right about the caffeine messing up your sleep.

that's why alcohol is highly beneficial for coffeeholics.


Posted by: kid bitzer | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 11:42 AM
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Unfortunately, caffeine has certain purgative effects that can be problematic at high intake levels.


Posted by: TJ | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 11:43 AM
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104 gets it right. It is also effective in inducing vivid dreams.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 11:48 AM
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106: The "one cup" in that video was actually a cup of very strong coffee, drunk prior to the filming.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 11:54 AM
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"Too much coffee (especially late in the day) can interfere with good sleep, leading to the very sleep-deprivation that compels you to drink it in the first place."

thats why you need to get the the point of addiction where by late evening the morning tea nad coffee have worn off leaving you lethargic


Posted by: yoyo | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 11:55 AM
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which is a shame, because coffee and cigarettes outside, or tea inside while reading, are the best things for an evening


Posted by: yoyo | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 11:56 AM
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When I was in junior high, I had to be at the bus stop at 6:38 am. And during hell week(s) in high school, we had practice from 5:30 to 6:30 am, and then 7:30-10:30 pm.

I am pretty sure that today that sort of schedule would kill me outright in a week or two.


Posted by: Trevor | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 11:56 AM
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102: For alcoholics, coffee helps you stay awake and alert while doing dumb shit, and it also prolongs the alcoholic's effective career by deferring cirrhosis, etc. It's possible that the dumbness of given instances of shit is slightly reduced, but in the long run there's a big net payoff.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 11:57 AM
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Coffee is supposed to be highly beneficial for alcoholics.

yeah, a few cups and you drastically reduce chance for cirrohsis


Posted by: yoyo | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 11:58 AM
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there is also the general antagonism between the GABA effects of alcohol, and the adenosine effects of caffiene


Posted by: yoyo | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 12:03 PM
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OT narcissism: In the continuing saga of this mess I'm trying to get filed today, the partner has been swanning about the office, talking blithely about how smoothly everything is going, and he can't remember the last time he filed something this size that's gone this well. And, you know, thanks for the vote of confidence and all, but if you'd been a little less serene and more focused a week or two ago I wouldn't have made quite so much progress toward my first ulcer.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 12:09 PM
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In Czech, there's a kids' story comes on TV at the same time every night.

It's not the Mole, is it? I love that show!


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 12:10 PM
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ot swanning.
i was surprised/pleased the other day to see in the oed that the first uses of the verb 'to swan' as applied to non-swans seem to have arisen among tank-commanders to describe disorganized milling around on the battlefield.

look, i said it was ot, okay?


Posted by: kid bitzer | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 12:12 PM
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disorganized milling around on the battlefield.

Yep, that pretty much sums it up.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 12:13 PM
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I thought it meant "to walk or otherwise move in a flamboyantly gay fashion".


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 12:17 PM
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hey LB i did that document review thing last week; it was really disconcerting how many of the docs we coded based on poor guesses abotu what things were referencing. and the amount of coffee and donuts they shoved our way.


Posted by: yoyo | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 12:17 PM
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LB: oy.

On a similar note, is it weird or totally normal practice to make junior associates take two passes at every single motion before getting into actual edits to the doc itself? It's probably normal practice--I am probably just spoiled from getting to write opinions that the judges basically just proofread & issued last year, & pissy because when I stay up late Sat. night writing a motion I don't want to spend Sunday revising. But there's not a single motion written by a single associate in the year I've been here that hasn't needed to be restructured & rewritten.


Posted by: Katherine | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 12:18 PM
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Different characters pretty much every night. Mole and his friends figure occasionally. The word to search to him on youtube is "krtek" The oldest short "Jak krtek ke kalhotkám přišel" is magical, but I don't see it online anywere. It's also the only one where mole says anything; having him talk reduces his market, I guess. I'm told that he's popular in Austria.


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 12:18 PM
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2. To move about freely or in an (apparently) aimless way (formerly, spec. of armoured vehicles); hence, to travel idly or for pleasure. Freq. with about, around, or off. slang (orig. Mil.).
1942 Daily Tel. 3 Sept. 6/6 Breaking up his armour into comparatively small groups of..tanks, he began 'swanning about', feeling north, north-west and east for them [sc. British tanks]. a1944 K. DOUGLAS Alamein to Zem Zem (1946) 24 It seemed crazy to go swanning off into the mist. 1945 Times 17 Mar. 4/2 [General Patton's armour]..is 'swanning' more or less unchallenged amid the open moors of the Hunsrück plateau.

which is not to say it may not have evolved into other uses, 119's among them.


Posted by: kid bitzer | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 12:18 PM
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Interesting. "Swanning" never evoked for me the brute gracelessness of milling tanks. For example, I could picture someone swanning about in a China Shoppe with no collateral damage.

But thinking about it, I know from experience that an agitated swan can be quite a fearsome opponent, especially if you're facing it while seated in a racing shell.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 12:22 PM
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On a similar note, is it weird or totally normal practice to make junior associates take two passes at every single motion before getting into actual edits to the doc itself?

Dead normal. Your first draft allows the partner to focus his thoughts sufficiently to think "Not like that!" at which point he tells you to rearrange entirely, and include arguments X, Y, and Z. (There will be stress around pointing out that there is no caselaw that supports argument Y, and looking harder won't make it appear.) (Sometimes, of course, looking harder does make it appear, which is why you are polite and restrained about telling a partner that his argument doesn't work.) Only on your second draft does actual editing start.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 12:25 PM
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I'm told that he's popular in Austria.

Also very popular in China and Greece.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 12:25 PM
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really disconcerting how many of the docs we coded based on poor guesses abotu what things were referencing. and the amount of coffee and donuts they shoved our way

Some projects are like that, some aren't. Those that aren't usually employ a lot of contract lawyers who have both document review and litigation/discovery experience, so that a question gets batted around the room and the less-experienced can learn fast.

The single most important factor is the orientation presentation by the lawyer who's managing the document review. Overview of both the case and the lines of business that the documents cover, what is responsive and what isn't. The lawyer must have done quite a bit of reviewing already to be able to make the orientation as good as it should be, but it pays dividends.


Posted by: I don't pay | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 12:27 PM
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127: That's about right, but the feeling of total lack of surety about whether you've coded half the documents correctly is certainly a familiar one.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 12:30 PM
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"an agitated swan can be quite a fearsome opponent"

and in fact were frequently successful in knocking out the first generation of sherman tanks, by coordinated pecking.

this led the americans to develop a larger-bore main gun with longer-range non-fouling fowling shells, which in turn led the germans to develop the mark iv panzergänse, which were even more fearsome.

it was the russians who then revolutionized armored combat with their heavy tracked emu-corps.


Posted by: kid bitzer | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 12:35 PM
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I'm supposed to be providing a first draft of a motion to compel production right now, where I basically have no idea what standard we're trying to meet and am just looking at an old motion we'd submitted and changing it to fit this fact situation.


Posted by: washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 12:35 PM
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124: But... but... tanks move exquisitely gracefully, like ballet dancers, except that you get the shit blowing up too! Russian tank commanders watched Swan Lake over and over again during their training period, and were not allowed to go against the enemy before they had shown that they could bring that grace to the battlefield.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 12:35 PM
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As I've said before, W.C. Fields moved because he was terrified of the swans near one home. And with good reason.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 12:38 PM
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130: While that's not a bad first move, reading the cases cited in the old brief, and seeing if there's anything later along the same lines, should help out with figuring out what the standard is. (Apologies if that was patronizing, I'm tired and cranky.)


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 12:40 PM
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132--
that's odd--swans are supposed to be highly beneficial for alcoholics.


Posted by: kid bitzer | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 12:43 PM
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You have to want to be helped. He was in denial.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 12:46 PM
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My kid has consistently gotten up between 5:15 and 6:15 his whole life. Sometimes he's a little earlier, occasionally a little later, but as late as 7:00 is rare. We'll see what happens when puberty hits. I'm afraid he may turn out to be one of those horrible people who just don't need all that much sleep and are thereby enabled to get ridiculous amounts done while the rest of us are recuperating.


Posted by: Not Prince Hamlet | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 1:07 PM
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because of night time television etc., kids cannot go to bed earlier?

B's point that parents are working later makes sense, but there is also the issue that kids' circadian cycles run long, so that all other things being equal, they'll tend to get tired later and later each day. So you can put 'em to bed earlier, but they won't necessarily sleep earlier. Sleeping in a dark room and waking up to a light on a timer can help regulate this.

I don't think there is any evidence that coffee is bad for kids

If they have enough of a habit to chronically raise their corticosteroid levels, it's neurotoxic to the hippocampus and you'd get the similar kinds of effects the article talks about with respect to amygdala vs. hippocampal memory consolidation, among others. All kinds of bad outcomes are associated with chronic stress in childhood, which a caffeine habit can somewhat imitate.

I'm supposed to be working. As long as I'm talking about brains, it's kind of like working.


Posted by: cerebropedant | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 1:08 PM
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coffee and cigarettes outside, or tea inside while reading, are the best things for an evening

Truer words were never said.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 1:27 PM
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What about piglets and caffeine?


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 2:41 PM
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i'm not buying 137


Posted by: yoyo | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 3:35 PM
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140: yeah, what would a neuroscientist know about neurochemistry, after all.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 3:39 PM
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14

"There's an interesting capture problem in NY law firms, possibly elsewhere as well. People who make partner in New York BigLaw tend to be people who are very tolerant of sleep deprivation; it's a profession that requires a lot of late nights. The annoying bit is that a large part of the reason it requires a lot of late nights is that you're working with a whole bunch of people who don't really get interested in what they're doing until late afternoon, and want to talk strategy at 11 pm, even when there isn't a real emergency making it necessary. This drives out the people who want their sleep, and the vicious circle continues."

Are they sleep deprived or just night owls? I work late too but I get adequate sleep because I generally arrive around noon.


Posted by: James B. Shearer | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 4:33 PM
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Some of both, but associates are expected to show up in the morning pretty much regardless of how late they were there the night before. (Oh, there's slack after a big crunch, but you couldn't work a consistent noon to midnight schedule as an associate). Ten or so, maybe, but not consistently later than that. Life's a lot easier for people who aren't sensitive to being short on sleep.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 4:53 PM
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Damn you kids, I thought I had this thread killed dead. (takes off shoe) Hold still...

140: Hey, I think you should give your kids all the caffeine they want. My future adult children will need somebody else's duller-witted, depressive future adult children to do their bidding. Coming with a caffeine habit pre-installed is a bonus feature: do my bidding and make it snappy!

I went all through jr high and high school getting up at 5:30, which I can scarcely believe in retrospect as it now takes a goddam stick of dynamite to get me out of bed by 7:00.


Posted by: cerebrocrat | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 4:54 PM
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duller-witted, depressive future adult children to do their bidding.

Um, are you talking about anything applicable to an occasional cup of coffee? Like, nowhere near one a day?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 4:56 PM
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145: No, chronic exposure is key.


Posted by: cerebrocrat | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 5:21 PM
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146--
but 'chronic' doesn't address the dose issue.
if the kid gets a half-cup, day in day out, regular as the clock can tick, then that's chronic exposure.
is it also worrisome?
or should we only worry about chronic exposure above x mg/kg?


Posted by: kid bitzer | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 5:31 PM
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Boarding school, people. In grade school classes started at 8:45, but in high school it was 8:00 or 8:10. It was, depending on the dorm, a 5-10 minute walk to the dinign hall. So you had to be at breakfast by 7:30 when you were in the 9th and 10th grades, but it was a quick walk down to class. Upperclassmen didn't have to be anywhere if they didn't have a first period class, so you could sleep in.


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 5:58 PM
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When I was 15 we moved to a house probably about 250' from school; my first class started at 8:05 which meant (WARNING: HIGH SCHOOL LOGIC) that I didn't have to get up until 7:50. It was wicked awesome.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 6:02 PM
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didn't you find it hard to fit in your morning beauty routine, though?
the 5-mile jog, the pilates, the fresh-fruit whole grain breakfast,
the shower, the make-up, volumizing your hair?

i'm guessing that you had already picked out your outfit and accessories the night before.


Posted by: kid bitzer | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 6:05 PM
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150: oh, yeah, every night I would lay out the outfit I'd be wearing the next day. By lay out I mean "fling onto the floor," which was easy, since I was already wearing it.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 6:08 PM
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But then if you woke up and the outfit was covered with vomit or urine or something...wear it to school anyway, or just stay home?


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 6:15 PM
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152: oddly enough, I very rarely drank in high school. I think I got drunk maybe two or three times, although one of those times I did end up with vomit in my hair.

On the other hand, a couple times I did show up at school with my clothes covered in blood from wiping out on my bike. I remember finding it quite entertaining how grossed out people got.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 6:18 PM
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Try having your four-year-old do a really elegant face plant on the loose gravel-covered asphalt of the preschool parking lot at pick-up time.


Posted by: Not Prince Hamlet | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 6:20 PM
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154: oh yeah, the forehead bleeds like crazy.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 6:23 PM
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It does at that. Actually, most of the kids thought it was kind of interesting. It was some of the parents who were weird.


Posted by: Not Prince Hamlet | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 6:29 PM
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That's why kids should be strapped into car seats at all times, even when walking.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 6:32 PM
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Try having your four-year-old do a really elegant face plant on the loose gravel-covered asphalt of the preschool parking lot at pick-up time.

Hey, I did one of those last year when I tripped on the front steps while taking out the garbage and met the concrete walk face first. The taste of blood and gravel in my mouth totally took me back to childhood days, as did the ensuing fat lip. In retrospect I'm lucky I didn't sustain more damage.


Posted by: JL | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 6:33 PM
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Nah, three or four layers of bubble wrap plus a layer of duct tape is plenty good enough, provided they keep their helmets on.


Posted by: Not Prince Hamlet | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 6:34 PM
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159 to 157.


Posted by: Not Prince Hamlet | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 6:35 PM
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"a really elegant face plant"

i keep reading that as a regally facial eggplant.


Posted by: kid bitzer | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 6:40 PM
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161: presidentially facial, more like.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 6:43 PM
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My mother in law fell last week, apparently, and broke her face. Also her wrist.

She's quite funny about it: "and then my friend said that she had blood on her blouse, but she just rolled the sleeve up and no one noticed! Hahahaha! And I'm SO GLAD that the children all bought me this imac and camera for Christmas, because now you can all see how bad it is! Oh, I could tell you on the phone, but that's not nearly as dramatic! Hahahaha!"

Later, when I spoke to her oldest daughter and said how much I really admired her mom's attitude, she reminded me that her mom was on some serious drugs.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 6:47 PM
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A couple years ago, Keegan fell and gashed his head at the afterschool program and Christ almighty but he was covered in blood when I got there. Head wounds are the bestest. They put some staples in his scalp to close the gash, which he and all of his classmates thought was the coolest thing ever.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 6:54 PM
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Baseballs and noses can also be an impressively bloody combination.


Posted by: Not Prince Hamlet | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 7:07 PM
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Heh, when PK fell at school last year and knocked out a tooth, the teacher said to me "I thought at first he was just saying it *felt* like he knocked out a tooth, but then I thought, you know, PK usually knows what he's talking about, so I went and looked and there it was."


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 7:10 PM
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I kinda wish i had stories abotu breaking things. I'm too rubbery.


Posted by: yoyo | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 11:14 PM
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I break hearts…laydeez.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 11:16 PM
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Also, i don't think that caffeine actually has that effect. not because the mechanisms don't link up, but it seems too hypothecal and unspported by anything.


Posted by: yoyo | Link to this comment | 10-15-07 11:19 PM
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"Too much coffee (especially late in the day) can interfere with good sleep"

Isn't that the whole point of coffee?


Posted by: Ginger Yellow | Link to this comment | 10-16-07 4:35 AM
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re: 116

We have the DVD of that. Krteček -- including the classic 'how he got his trousers' episode.

The particular story varies from night to night, though.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 10-16-07 4:48 AM
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I'm too rubbery.

The only bones I've broken are the little toes on each foot. Not an injury that garners much sympathy, let me tell you.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10-16-07 7:12 AM
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re: 172

Yeah, I've cracked a little toe, I think. Definitely broken a finger [volleyball] and my nose [sledging].

But other than that, no broken bones. So no sympathy for me either.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 10-16-07 7:18 AM
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When I was 15 we moved to a house probably about 250' from school; my first class started at 8:05 which meant (WARNING: HIGH SCHOOL LOGIC) that I didn't have to get up until 7:50.

In high school I used to get dressed the night before and sleep in my clothes. Out of the house in under ten minutes. Because I still had to have my coffee.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 10-16-07 7:47 AM
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In high school I used to get dressed the night before and sleep in my clothes.

heebie wore her jammies out.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 10-16-07 8:20 AM
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