Is it unworthy of me to be grateful I'm a middle-class honky with (afaik) no mother/sister issues? Because there but for the grace of God, man.
Dear god, the design of that blog is appallingly unreadable.
One of my dear friend in Cleveland had a similar mother/sister who OD'd on crack. That really sucked. But it was her fifth relative to OD on crack, so she was somewhat numb to it by that point.
no fun. As for 6, AWB .. damn. not the sort of thing you want to get used to.
Oy. I was glad to click through mother/sister and realize that it wasn't a Chinatown situation. I wonder how common that sort of 'quietly raised by grandparents as a youngest sibling' thing is -- we've got one in the family, not too far away.
8: not to get too grotesque, but I wonder (a) how much mother/sister tracks various status markers and (b) whether the tracking has changed a lot since, say, 1960.
We have a 'quietly raised by grandparents as a youngest sibling' thing in our family, too, a couple of generations back. Or, at least, there are whispers about it. I bet it was fairly common pre-Roe.
5: That first blog? Not the person with the dead mom's. The other one. Yes, I did say that.
The person with the od'd mom on heroin, it's very sad, yes, but I mean, that kind of thing does happen, right? Virtually everyone that od's on heroin has a child or a sibling or a parent. It's a fucking sad thing.
Well, to work it's limited to big families that started young -- if you have your first kid at 30, there's no way to pass off her kid as yours. So there's some class markers right there. (Doesn't have to be big families necessarily, but two siblings in two years, and then another eighteen years later, would be a tipoff in a way that four siblings over fifteen years and then another four years later wouldn't be.)
12: LB clearly doesn't watch Desperate Housewives.
11: But it would have to be a hell of a lot sadder to make up for that crappy design, right?
I went to elementary school with a girl who got pregnant in 6th grade. She and her family moved very quietly and the grapevine had it that they were going to do the mother/sister thing.
When a classmate of mine got pregnant in 5th grade, she was treated like a capable adult mother. It was kind of weird, running into her when I was sixteen at the movie theater, and she introduced me to her first-grade son.
At first my thinking was along the lines of 1, but then I realized that all three of my sisters were old enough to bear children at the time of my birth.
So now I'm feeling a little paranoid.
14: You should see the archives. B was absolutely scathing about what Iraqi kids lacking limbs wear these days.
B told me that Terry Schiavo makes ugly faces.
Um, no, the design doesn't have anything to do with the *actual story* that the badly-designed blog is linking to. Except that it makes *finding the story* difficult, and means that one's sympathy is somewhat tempered by irritating and squinting.
Also, I simply don't see why the sadness of that particular story makes a comment about poor blog design so incredibly beyond the pale. Are we all suddenly Knecht Ruprecht here, or what?
19: Well, she does! Plus, lying in bed all the time like that? Fat *and* out of shape. Ew.
B is "performing" being on heroin right now, in a subtle and sophisticated maneuver to make us feel more acutely the pain of this tragedy.
22: If I were on heroin, I'd be asleep.
23: Yeah, but no one's trying to make me some kind of pro-life poster child, either.
B's the one who actually spat on the troops. (But to be fair, that might have been consensual.)
22: In that case, my condolences for the death of Khun Sa.
Oh look, the thread is all about B now.
25: I think all the stories of women snowballing the troops are urban legends.
Okay, let me see if I can figure this out. Paralysis from a diving accident = funny! Bad blog design = dude, *completely* beyond the pale.
24: I meant your site design.
Can we tone down some of the more outrageous comments on this thread? I know one of the people involved in this and what he's been through this last year (staying in NOLA through Katrina and trying to rebuild, dealing with a sick kid, etc.) and it's making me uncomfortable. Labs didn't know that when he linked it.
27: And that's my fault, because I *invited* a pile-on with an offhand remark.
You know, I was sort of hoping for a legal advice thread, but I love B's performance art so much.
33: Legal advice in what sense? The non-lawyer asks...
I need a little advice about the results of my date, actually...
Paying off the credit card company, I assume. I'd guess that under the circumstances there are no assets, so you walk away. If there were assets, it'd make sense to try and haggle the credit card company down to less than the assets.
31: That sucks, Becks. Condolences to your friend.
Her mother will raise the child as her sibling, flip. Or is that not what you meant?
36: Oh, right. Assuming no remaining assets would make it simple. Otherwise, yeah, haggling would make sense.
Becks: It sounds like a really lousy situation for your friend, sorry to hear it.
When a classmate of mine got pregnant in 5th grade, she was treated like a capable adult mother.
Jeebus. My son is a relatively old fifth grader (or old considering it's still early in the year) and Just. No.
On the mother/sister thing and other sorts of deep dark family secrets, again, Just. No. Kids can handle a whole lot of shit just fine if they're treated like human beings and given love and support. But then I suppose the sort of dysfunctionality that leads to hiding the deep dark secrets correlates fairly strongly to other sorts of dysfunctionality, so maybe those families are fucked regardless.
When a classmate of mine got pregnant in 5th grade, she was treated like a capable adult mother. It was kind of weird, running into her when I was sixteen at the movie theater, and she introduced me to her first-grade son.
:-O
37, 39: You wound me. Honestly. As though any prison could hold me.
41: Not much to spill, Blume, but perhaps some of my feminine interlocutors can advise.
I got to the mutual friend's party a bit late, and she had to run to another party an hour or so later, so there was little one-on-one opportunity to be fascinated or repulsed, and I was uncertain as to how I did. Her perfume was very nice, though.
Our mutual friend and another woman who had joined our conversation thought it went decently, though, so in a fit of World Series-induced "Let the dice fly high!"-ism, I sent her an e-mail (because I am an Obersturmbannfuehrer in the Wuss Army) asking if she'd like to meet again sometime. Smooth as silk, I know. She responded not long after (an hour or so), saying it'd be good to get together after she gets back from out of town. I can't tell whether this is a result positive enough to smile about.
When is "back from out of town"? Next week or next year?
I'm with 42 and 43. I'm not even sure how much of a genetic freak someone's gotta be to get pregnant in 5th grade. Unless they got held back a couple grades, I'd assume they lacked the biological requirements, let alone any semblance of the post-pubescent appearance I'd assume is necessary before the sexing begins.
I don't know -- a week or two, I gather.
Then yeah, that sounds positive rather than merely polite.
It's probably good, Flip, but it depends on how she put it.
What kind of advice are you looking for here? Sounds like a situation where you both need more time to sniff on each other and make out before you can decide whether to get excited about it or not. I recommend: look forward, but not be excited?
She responded not long after (an hour or so), saying it'd be good to get together after she gets back from out of town. I can't tell whether this is a result positive enough to smile about.
Yes it is. Whatever your past experience may have taught you, it's too much to always hope that the other person will immediately fly home to sex you. Especially if they are out of town for work.
Sounds like a situation where you both need more time to sniff on each other and make out before you can decide whether to get excited about it or not.
Wait, the making out occurs BEFORE they get excited about each other?
Since when is Khun Sa dead? He was my favorite strongman ever!
52: Yes. Making out happens as soon as possible. That's how you get excited.
That site design's not so bad. I was going to say that for unreadable design, you want Pam Oshry. But I see that she's changed the look of it some since I was there last and, bad as it remains, it is nonetheless a massive improvelence.
Remember that AWB lives in her own world of twenty very strange people.
49: No, really?
50: As the samurai looks forward to death, without fear or vulgar bluster, I shall look forward to seeing this woman again.
51: I suppose I've been spoiled by the women who moved into my neighborhood to be closer to me.
53: AP story at the Times earlier in the afternoon.
it's too much to always hope that the other person will immediately fly home to sex you
Did I ever brag about the time I was dating a Lufthansa stewardess, and she used to do this?
What do you guys mean when you think "excited"? I've had lots of relationships that involved excitement but no making out, and they tend to stall there, as if the excitement itself is the end. Making out makes it clear that the excitement is related to possible intercourse.
As the samurai looks forward to death, without fear or vulgar bluster, I shall look forward to seeing this woman again.
That made me laugh out loud.
If there's a specific trigger for when the "we should hang out again" will be taking place, I'd say you're in good shape.
I wonder if the people in the stalled relationships in 60 had girlfriends/boyfriends.
What do you guys mean when you think "excited"?
"ready to make out"
I wonder if the people in the stalled relationships in 60 had girlfriends/boyfriends.
...which I never hear about from them, but way too late from other parties. This is my curse.
What do you guys mean when you think "excited"?
Distractedly eager to see her again.
46: Starting a period at 10 or 11 isn't freakish. And a girl hardly needs to look like a woman before she can be raped or molested, duh.
I dunno about the "treating her like any mom" thing. On the one hand, why not? If she's pregnant and doesn't want to abort or place her child for adoption, it seems that respecting her decision and supporting her as much as you can is the right thing to do. On the other hand, if "treating her like any mom" means kicking her out and telling her to get a job and treating her as if she doesn't need support--including, of course, the extra support she'd need to stay in school, etc.--would obviously be assholish.
62: No set trigger. I didn't want to ask when she'd be back, because that smacks of stalking. We did exchange a further few e-mails making small jokes about our mutual friend, though.
Flippanter, I'd say wait a decent interval (a day or two), then send her an e-mail asking if she will be back on a certain date (say, 10 days from now), because you are planning on [fill in the blank with an event happening that day] and would love for her to join you if she will be in town.
60: any insight as to why this is? I've been getting some version of that (except the girlfriends haven't been explicitly hidden) and am wondering what sort of vibe pulls these people in.
67: A simple "Hey, hanging out when you get back to town sounds like a good idea. You get back to town when, again?" isn't too stalkerish. It's certainly no "tell me your flight number and I'll pick you up at the airport."
I was taught in 1974 or so that "making out" was vulgar high school terminology. Kids these days.
"Watching the submarine races" is the preferred Midwestern term. And by Midwestern of course I mean Dallas.
Did I ever brag about the time I was dating a Lufthansa stewardess, and she used to do this?
Doing this with an ex during one already travel-packed Christmas break led to me flying around 45,000 miles in just over 3 weeks. It was a little obscene.
These memories of a time when I had vacations and friends with spare time/vacations are just depressing me now. Screw work and grad school.
Fine, "necking" then, Mr. Hifalutin.
People in relationships like to flirt, especially with people who are unlike their own partners, even more so if they secretly feel they're totally incompatible with the flirtee in the longterm, so it's "safe." So they talk about everything except their partner: music, books, life, philosophy, fashion, food, anything abstract. Eventually, they realize that they're starting to think thoughts like "Holy shit, maybe we are compatible!" and they suddenly feel guilty and disappear. Or the flirtee makes a move, and has to be rejected and never spoken to again.
Hmm, I never even though about the mother/sister thing until reading this thread- my mom's family spacing is 3-3-4-6 (16 years oldest to youngest of 5.) There's overlap in the next generation of cousins- a grandchild of the oldest sibling was born before a child of the youngest sibling.
68, 69: I hesitate to ask for that information cold, Jake, but Ruprecht's stratagem is sound, though it would require me to find something appropriate to do in New York City with a woman whom I don't know well: conversation-enabling but not weird, active but not intrusive, etc., etc. Ideas?
What weekend, Flip? There are some good Wordless Music shows coming up.
I'm not sure, and I'm not sure I want to presume about anybody's taste in music. Also, you can't talk during concerts, and another hour or so of conversation is more what I think I need.
Conversation doesn't have dates you can pin down, of course. Even if you end up not going to a concert, it's a good reason to ask when she'll be in town next, maybe.
Ideas?
Flippanter, you realize the proportion of usable ideas among the comments that emerge from this prompt will be measured in homeopathic quantities?
conversation-enabling but not weird, active but not intrusive, etc., etc. Ideas?
Halo 3
Am I the first to observe that this sort of thing makes me feel like I'm playing chess with invisible pieces on a board I can't see the edges of?
That said, you need to tell us more of what you know about the girl so we can assist you more effectively.
I dunno about the "treating her like any mom" thing. On the one hand, why not?
My 10 year old and her friends are tiny. I don't have any data on this, but I wonder if having a kid at that size is dangerous.
On the one hand, why not? If she's pregnant and doesn't want to abort or place her child for adoption, it seems that respecting her decision and supporting her as much as you can is the right thing to do.
I think "because she's 10" is a perfectly good response. She actually has zero legal way to support herself, let alone a child, in American society today. I'm really averse to saying it's up to the parents whether or not she gets to bear the child, but it also seems ludicrous to give her control over whether the child will be kept when it's really her parents who will bear the burden of the decision.
74: Sure, that explains the desire to flirt while in a relationship in general. But why do these in-relationship-flirters seem to pick the same subset of people to flirt with?
84: Don't feel that I can provide much more detail without threatening the integrity of real life.
I suppose that, apart from her physical attractiveness, what caught my attention were how she responded to a couple of references that I made, and how we both were familiar with certain related details from the literature, and also a story she told about something that bothered her that happens to be something that bothers me as well.
Small hooks, though, and canst thou draw up Leviathan with a hook?
But why do these in-relationship-flirters seem to pick the same subset of people to flirt with?
Wouldn't surprise me if this subset was just the people who are easiest to flirt with.
87: I think, in my case, it's because I'm sort of masculine in my interests and behavior, but feminine enough to be physically attractive to them, even if I'm not their type. So it starts off as "Oh, hey, AWB is like my awesome dude-buddy, except she's a chick so it's hott." When they actually start to find me attractive, or when they start thinking about how having a dude-buddy with boobs is kind of an ideal, they stop talking to me.
I have a remarkable ability to not flirt much at all, but find myself flirting, when I'm flirting, with in-relationship people.
85, 86: Absolutely, childbirth at that age is dangerous. I would strongly encourage a kid that age to abort. But I would also strongly *object* to anyone forcing the issue with a kid that age, and I also strongly object to the argument that because her parents will "bear the (financial, presumably) burden of her decision" that they get to decide. If, let's say, you're advocating for adoption, then the girl is going to bear the burden of *that* decision, and I think it's a burden that we tend to really underestimate. If you're advocating for abortion, well then, forced medical procedure with emotional and moral overtones = wrong.
I get that yes, parents are going to have a pretty major burden to bear if an underage daughter has a child and raises it. But you're going to have a pretty major burden to bear if, say, that same kid is in a car accident and has permanent injuries, or if she develops a drug or alcohol problem, or whatever. Dealing with that shit if, god forbid, it happens is part of being a parent.
Serious question inviting mockery: Can you get pregnant before puberty? Because, you know, you have eggs from birth.
No. You're not ovulating until puberty, so the eggs aren't mature or released. Presumably you could get pregnant before your first period, if you happened to hit the exact month, but not otherwise.
Because, you know, you have eggs from birth.
Still in the packaging though. They've got to drop down first.
what caught my attention were how she responded to a couple of references that I made, and how we both were familiar with certain related details from the literature
In other words, "mental whateverness"
when they start thinking about how having a dude-buddy with boobs is kind of an ideal
Hmm... Although this made a lot of sense to me at first, and I have a fair number of friends who could be similarly described, this falls apart under further inspection. Why would the boobs matter? Apart from aesthetic reasons, they only possess a mildly good use as a makeshift pillow, and even that is typically offlimits for friends.
But I guess I never understood a lot of the guys you complain about, as I do kind of want to sleep with a number of my female friends, and tend to end up doing so on occasion when propriety allows.
95: Except not always, so I guess there is a remote possiblity of tubal pregnancy like things happening.
90, 92: All men act weird around AWB, and none of them want to sleep with her. Bitch stongly objects to everything.
I'm feeling all Unfogged-y right now (sniff).
AWB: Your elementary school classmate had been held back though, right? I knew a guy who fathered a child in fifth grade, but he should've been in seventh.
I do kind of want to sleep with a number of my female friends, and tend to end up doing so on occasion when propriety allows. they're really drunk.
51: I suppose I've been spoiled by the women who moved into my neighborhood to be closer to me.
I read that as "soiled" rather than "spoiled." Need to start wearing my glasses, I guess.
96: Maybe. That thread is too long to read, though, and it would be unacceptable unsubtle of me to overlook the possibility that her responses to those references were just graceful conversation, rather than signs of a commonality of the spirit.
97, 99: Who the fuck knows? There's some bizarre calculus going on that I don't understand. I bring out the worst in people, a fact recognized around the world as a Truth.
100: No, she was 11 when she got pregnant, maybe 12 when she gave birth.
104: I knew a girl who was technically capably before she turned 9. Gave her mother fits thinking about it.
something appropriate to do in New York City with a woman whom I don't know well: conversation-enabling but not weird, active but not intrusive
Museum. You walk around and look at stuff, you make fun of the stuff that's too out there, you find out if your aesthetics are compatible. You aren't forced to stare at each other and talk every second, but unlike a concert, talking is possible, and unlike a movie, talking doesn't bother anyone. Also, if you're a cheap bastard, NY MoMA on Friday night is pay-as-you-wish. Coffee or dinner or something on one or the other end of it.
Why would the boobs matter?
Because it's fun being friends with people you find attractive? It adds a certain frisson to the friendship.
104: Wow then. I didn't even know that was possible. I blame bovine growth hormones. For everything.
106: Big dopey museums are great for first dates. Wandering around the Metropolitan Museum of Art allows for plenty of chatting, and there's always a topic of conversation in front of you, or in the next room.
"Why would the boobs matter?" is either trolling or the question of a crazy person.
It's funny how "dates" are almost always with someone you don't know well. Right? If you're already friends, you're just "hanging out" and if you're already dating, you're just "hanging out" as well. Hypothesis: you can really never have more than 5 or so "dates" with a particular person.
106, 110: Agreed, but perhaps too "hey, we're on a date and I'm not entirely the cynical animal I may have appeared when first we met"-aggressive? Still, who dares wins. I suppose the Met has those baptistry doors from Florence and one last chance to see the Euphronios krater in its longtime home, among other things.
113: I think I've only had about 5 or so "dates" in my entire life.
I try not to let the boobs matter to me unless I matter to the boobs.
114: So hang a lantern on it: "So I was trying to think of something we could do that wouldn't be all awkward and first-datey, and all [I/a bunch of freaks from the internet] could come up with was going to the MOMA or something. Got any better ideas?"
Better yet, get a lantern and sneak into a museum after hours!
Of course the boobs matter. Just ask Althouse.
111 for new hovertext. Not for the site, for the whole internet.
Because it's fun being friends with people you find attractive? It adds a certain frisson to the friendship.
A very fun frisson indeed, but I'd argue that such friendships are different than "dude-buddy" friendships. I guess I'm just confused as to why the sort of person AWB is complaining about, who seems to want a frisson-less relationship (else why would they give up on the flirting so fast? or be scared off instead of explaining that it's all in fun?), why that sort of person would view boobs as a bonus. Hell, seems like they would want people completely unattractive as friends just so they don't have to act all crazy every time they feel a little hot for their buddy.
The main character in Sweet and Lowdown had the right idea about what to do in these awkward dating situations.
86 - Yeah, for the next few years. But then after that she's got the whole rest of her life to hate her parents for forcing her into something. Which might not be great.
124: If it was "marry her adopted daughter," I'm not taking it.
120. Worked for Audrey Hepburn and Peter O'Toole
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0060522/
127: Funny, I was just thinking of something Peter O'Toole said:
"I've never looked for women. When I was a teenager, perhaps. But they are looking for us, and we must learn that very quickly. They decide. We just turn up. Never mind the superficialities -- tall and handsome and all that. Just turn up. They will do the rest."
I fucking hope so, Peter.
Just turn up. They will do the rest
Yeah, if you're Peter O'Toole they will.
i can't believe people would be ok with un-self-sufficient underage type girls, especially in the 9-13 age range, having kids. I'm kinda surprised people even think it should be legal not to have an abortion.
And why would you give the credit card company a fucking dime?
My one friend's dad died, and her crazy alcoholic mom basically stole all the dad's assets, and won't pay for the dad's funeral. Unfortunatly, said friend signed something with the funeral home so that the funeral could go foward, and now she has legal problems related to that.
Peter o'toole sounds like an unaware self-decieving idiot.
I'm kinda surprised people even think it should be legal not to have an abortion.
Whoa there Captain Coercion. You don't have to be a fan of kids having kids to think that forced abortion is a bad idea.
Never mind the superficialities -- tall and handsome and all that... for I, Peter O'Toole, have that entirely under control.
131: best Halloween costume ever.
I'm pretty anti-coercion in general. But theres someone involved here who is getting coerced into 18 years of stuff.
Actually i'm generally in favour of lots less coercion for the under-18 crowd. And lots of it worse than an abortion.
And not a hypothetical person, like in the abortion=murder formulation.
Well i guess they are hypothetical, but not doubly-hypothetical.
Wow. No love for Peter O'Toole. That is harsh.
I think O'Toole is basically right. If men are willing to just put forth a minimal amount of input, most women are happy to do the rest. Or, at least, they're accustomed to doing the rest. You Unfogged boys think your wussiness about girls is somehow unique and that all other dudes are suave lotharios, but this is not true. Men of all kinds are much happier to receive than to give.
That is the most useful advice I've received since my father taught me to close a Swiss Army knife without cutting chunks off my fingers.
Sorry, Bear, I'm the wussiest of all.
Men of all kinds are much happier to receive blowjobs than to give.
If men are willing to just put forth a minimal amount of input, most women are happy to do the rest.
138: I think O'Toole is basically right.
I think O'Toole is oversimplifying a whole bunch of shit that probably comes to him automatically, over and above the whole "being rich and famous" thing. "Just show up" involves a whole set of skills -- knowing how to pick up signals, how to make conversation, when to hold the door open and when not to, who will expect you to pay for dinner and who will be insulted, when "making a move" is okay and when it seems creepy or desperate, when not to break off from flirting to shout "Overtime!" et cetera -- that some people have a more-or-less natural talent for and others have to learn.
143: Yes, but he put it so well, I have to forgive him for overlooking the "I'm Peter O'Toole" thing.
Howdy,
"Anyway, an f'ed up situation no matter how you slice it; condolences for the loss and best wishes for the road ahead, which sounds like it could be weird."
Actually, it's not that weird. I found out she was my mother when I was 39, so the pain of that is, for the most part, gone. Also, for the most part, I wrote her off in 2004.
The interesting part now will be to see if there actually is a will in the safe deposit box, and if so, did she leave me anything or just will it to a cat. In any case, I get to spend the next 6-12 months of my life doing additional paperwork for a person that was a waste of human flesh. Her final flip-off.
I don't really expect any kind of an inheritance, but my grandmother/mother died 6 years ago, and I just hope that my mother/sister didn't shoot up the entire fucking estate proceeds.
At least this is the last branch of my side of the family. My kids have copious amounts of normalcy at every turn -- except for living in New Orleans, that is.
Nevertheless, condolences, and strength for all the hassles and odd pangs you're bound to run up against. Good luck with a bad situation.