Re: Hairy

1

Progress, evolution, call it what you like.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 9:55 AM
horizontal rule
2

"I don't remember seeing any men with back hair before about 20 or 25 years ago.

An unusually chaste life? I suspect that a smaller percentage of men have back hair today than in the past.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 9:56 AM
horizontal rule
3

Where is your mom seeing this, anyway? Not in any popular media that I know about. It seems that people get hairier as they get older, so maybe "Bingo Night" is looking different nowadays.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 9:57 AM
horizontal rule
4

Age effects, again.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 9:59 AM
horizontal rule
5

maybe "Bingo Night" is looking different nowadays.

If shirtless bingo is now standard, it certainly is different these days.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 10:00 AM
horizontal rule
6

3: Maybe she watches a lot of comedies. The hair sweater seems to be a stable of slapstick these days. Does she quote lines from various Will Farrell projects at you, Becks?


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 10:00 AM
horizontal rule
7

40-yo virgin, etc.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 10:01 AM
horizontal rule
8

Turns out that the people who claimed that masturbation causes hairy palms were only half right.


Posted by: Adam Kotsko | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 10:07 AM
horizontal rule
9

Clearly a sign of the coming ice age. We're genetically wired to feel the water stalling in the Atlantic.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 10:08 AM
horizontal rule
10

8: Kotsko makes the claim that we masturbate more today than we did in the past. Personal experience is not data, Kotsko.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 10:14 AM
horizontal rule
11

I, too, doubt that the actual incidence of back hair in the American population is higher now than it was 15 years ago.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 10:16 AM
horizontal rule
12

I wonder if 5, in its way, has it right. Perhaps there is just more shirtless-ness now than in the past.


Posted by: mrh | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 10:18 AM
horizontal rule
13

Hey, since when do you have a foodless blog, red?


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 10:20 AM
horizontal rule
14

Indeed, there is probably a bit less (modulo demographics) since some men seem to have taken up waxing.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 10:20 AM
horizontal rule
15

I'm still wondering where the hell your mom is seeing this. What aren't you telling us, Becks?


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 10:22 AM
horizontal rule
16

Furthermore, we're in the top ten results for do jews like oral sex?


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 10:23 AM
horizontal rule
17

spotting trends


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 10:23 AM
horizontal rule
18

Did your mom grow up around a lot of hairless white guys, Becks? Maybe she's just seeing a broader swath of humanity.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 10:30 AM
horizontal rule
19

13: For about a year and a half, but until recently I didn't link to it from anywhere. As you can see, I run hot and cold with posting anything there. Nice redding.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 10:32 AM
horizontal rule
20

I'm not hairy! I'm actively-follicled!


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 10:34 AM
horizontal rule
21

Furthermore, we're in the top ten results for do jews like oral sex?

One vote for "yes".


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 10:36 AM
horizontal rule
22

It's all the Iranian immigrants.


Posted by: David Weman | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 10:37 AM
horizontal rule
23

back on the veldt ...

oh, sod it.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 10:38 AM
horizontal rule
24

21. Lenny Bruce was emphatic to the contrary. This is perhaps a recent thing?


Posted by: OneFatEnglishman | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 10:39 AM
horizontal rule
25

Lenny Bruce never got it from me.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 10:40 AM
horizontal rule
26

16: I can't say, but Congregationalists, Catholics and the Eastern Orthodox seem to relish it. Ladies...


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 10:41 AM
horizontal rule
27

I'm with Gonerill. It's an age thing.

That said, I've never dated anyone with back hair. Not as a choice, just never ran across it.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 10:53 AM
horizontal rule
28

Back in the seventies, at least, men used to have those hott little terrycloth lounging shirts to match their swim trunks.

Men, I really recommend that you pick up something along those lines. I think the young Sean Connery wore one in Goldfinger. Scrumptious.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 10:56 AM
horizontal rule
29

I went out for a bit. I think she was talking about at the swimming pool. She also noted that, while my father is Italian and has dark hair and is otherwise a hairy dude, he doesn't have any back hair, in contrast to all of these other similarly-hairy men with back hair these days. She was perplexed as she thought you'd see less back hair these days, what with the waxing and increased grooming standards and such.

I'm just relaying the information. I don't know what dudes' backs looked like 25 years ago.


Posted by: Becks | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 11:03 AM
horizontal rule
30

Also, I feel the need to link to this because I saw it in the SkyMall the other day and it made me chuckle. It does fulfill a need (and is much better than the skeevy guy I went to college with who would try to pick up girls by asking them to come back to his room and shave his back) but the mental image of the contortions that would ensue are pretty funny.


Posted by: Becks | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 11:05 AM
horizontal rule
31

MANGROOMER!


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 11:06 AM
horizontal rule
32

Hairy-backed men used to stay inside?


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 11:09 AM
horizontal rule
33

If hormones and other chemicals in our water supply and our consumer goods can cause massive epidemics of breast and prostate cancer, plus earlier and earlier menarche, maybe they can cause increased back hair in men.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 11:10 AM
horizontal rule
34

Gotta be an age effect, she's hanging out with hair-sprouting old farts.

the skeevy guy I went to college with who would try to pick up girls by asking them to come back to his room and shave his back

Did this ever work?


Posted by: PerfectlyGoddamnDelightful | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 11:13 AM
horizontal rule
35

Fuck, I thought ogged had posted this and I had soooooo many quips from which to choose.

MANGROOMER.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 11:18 AM
horizontal rule
36

In grad school, I did have to wax a friend's back. But there wasn't much there; he was just prissy about it.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 11:26 AM
horizontal rule
37

Was 36 as much fun as it sounds?


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 11:28 AM
horizontal rule
38

I think 33 is on to something.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 11:29 AM
horizontal rule
39

Wow - following on from the "Do Jews like Oral Sex" link, I came to a page by this skeevy rabbi advising his congregants to get to it with their wives that contains the most wonderful piece of Talmudic misogyny:

"R. Yochanan b. Dachabai said, 'People are born lame because their parents had sex in a nonmissionary position; dumb, because they kiss that place [the genitals]; deaf, because they converse during intercourse; blind, because they look at that place.'"

Shaddap with the 'darling' already! YOu want our child to be born deaf?


Posted by: Nworb Werdna | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 11:31 AM
horizontal rule
40

I think 33 is on to something.

Hormones and spillover antibiotics, at a guess.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 11:31 AM
horizontal rule
41

36: Eh. Not as un-fun as getting dragged to the Leather Stallion afterwards. That was a bad summer.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 11:32 AM
horizontal rule
42

Back-waxing is the new leg-shaving? Men, I feel for you.

I go for the age hypothesis, though. The pool I use at the physical therapy place (as a cheap substitute for an actual gym) is full of not just sagging flesh but hairy men. It's marvelous to encounter the panoply of humankind. Something like that.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 11:40 AM
horizontal rule
43

39: That is pretty old school. Frazer tells us that in the old times magic could be worked through the marks of a man's tread, or through places where his shadow had passed, and that some magicians explain the need for bits of hair, fingernails or possessions, by saying that the world has been leeched of much of its magic by the wickedness of men.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 11:41 AM
horizontal rule
44

some magicians explain the need for bits of hair, fingernails or possessions, by saying that the world has been leeched of much of its magic by the wickedness of men.

I don't understand the reasoning here. What does the wickedness of men have to do with therefore needing personal bits?


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 11:45 AM
horizontal rule
45

The magic isn't in the air any more, so you need to get the dehydrated concentrated magic available in personal bits. Just add holy water & spellcast!


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 11:46 AM
horizontal rule
46

There's more back hair today because there are more Iranians in this country. Becks, does your mother happen to go to Ogged's pool?


Posted by: Alex F | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 11:53 AM
horizontal rule
47

45: Ah, I see.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 12:00 PM
horizontal rule
48

45: Elegantly put, Cala.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 12:09 PM
horizontal rule
49

39: posts like that require direct links. You are banned.


Posted by: PerfectlyGoddamnDelightful | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 12:25 PM
horizontal rule
50

I guess we could tell whether Jews like oral sex by counting the number of mute Jews we know.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 12:27 PM
horizontal rule
51

36: I have waxed a back or two in my day, as well. These backs belonged to gay men, who were on their way to the clubs for the evening. I was usually tagging along, face elaborately made up by said gay men, supposedly in exchange for the back waxing, but really to up my fab quotient to make me better boy bait for them.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 1:44 PM
horizontal rule
52

Oh dear. I just went through all the comments so far with the misreading that Becks' mother was talking about there being more men around with black hair nowadays. Re-reading the post makes the previous 51 comments make a lot more sense.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 3:10 PM
horizontal rule
53

That is really hilarious.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 3:15 PM
horizontal rule
54

It's because the Muslim hordes are invading. Someone must do something about this.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 3:39 PM
horizontal rule
55

Serious response: there are probably more men in their 40s and 50s at swimming pools now than there used to be.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 3:40 PM
horizontal rule
56

PhD in philology, I take it.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 3:41 PM
horizontal rule
57

I don't even know what philology is.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 3:44 PM
horizontal rule
58

I assumed 56 was directed at Blume's close textual analysis.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 3:46 PM
horizontal rule
59

I have persistent but countably few back hair(s). So, I pluck. It takes some gymnastics but I can reach them all—although (laydeez) when in longterm relationships the girls has helped with this task.


Posted by: Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 3:50 PM
horizontal rule
60

the girls has helped

That undifferentiated mass, eh wot?


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 3:53 PM
horizontal rule
61

What's the big deal with back hair? You don't have to look at it that much (I guess you would if you were into pegging, though) and it feels kind of nice. Hair is soft, you know.


Posted by: m. leblanc | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 4:09 PM
horizontal rule
62

George has small amounts of hair that sprout on his back in scattered little truffula patches, each no more than two inches by two inches. Most of his back is hairless.


Posted by: Martha Washington | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 4:35 PM
horizontal rule
63

What's the big deal with back hair?

One does wonder.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 4:54 PM
horizontal rule
64

When my mom brought this up, she wasn't making a judgement on back hair, just noting the phenomenon. I've never dated someone with back hair, at least to the naked stage.


Posted by: Becks | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 4:56 PM
horizontal rule
65

Aha! What your mom means is that she's seeing more naked mens, and she just ... never knew!

Comfort her in her newfound awareness, as the scales fall from her eyes.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 4:59 PM
horizontal rule
66

The Great Awakening, by Becks's mom
To Have and To Hold, by Becks's mom


Posted by: Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 5:12 PM
horizontal rule
67

When will there be a post about nipple hair on women?


Posted by: PerfectlyGoddamnDelightful | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 5:21 PM
horizontal rule
68

Pluck away, baby.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 5:25 PM
horizontal rule
69

Hey, I've been waiting for the right moment to submit this to the Mineshaft, and this seems like as good a thread as I'm going to get. Here goes:

There's a young man who works at my firm, but on another floor, so I don't even know him to say "hi" to. However, I have occasion to walk by the cubicle he shares with three other people on a daily basis. He is, to all appearances, an utterly average white, 20-something office drone. But for this: on his wall he has an 8 1/2 by 11 inch promotional photo or magazine ad, with no writing except for the HBO logo in the lower right hand corner. The image is a close-up (from about mid-thigh) of a beefy white guy with dark hair, wearing black pants and a grey A-shirt. The guy is standing at a bathroom vanity, or perhaps at a hairdresser's counter, with a large mirror above it, 3/4 turned away from the camera. He's holding a black blowdryer, and curling his arm so that his bicep flexes.

So, two questions:
1. Does anyone know what HBO program or promotion this image might refer to?
2. Isn't that kind of a weird image for anyone, male or female, gay or straight or bi, old or young, to have up at their cubicle at work, especially without any other context?


Posted by: minneapolitan | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 5:43 PM
horizontal rule
70

Guessing it's a comic book thing.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 5:46 PM
horizontal rule
71

3. Isn't that poster entrée enough?


Posted by: Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 5:47 PM
horizontal rule
72

I fail to see the back hair connection.


Posted by: PerfectlyGoddamnDelightful | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 5:55 PM
horizontal rule
73

There isn't really a strict back-hair connection, although the man in the image is relatively swarthy. It's more a question of representations of the male body. And spectatorship.


Posted by: minneapolitan | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 5:59 PM
horizontal rule
74

So, wait. What are you asking, minnea?


Posted by: Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 6:02 PM
horizontal rule
75

The poster has personal meaning in some way, at a guess. I don't know cubicle culture, so have no idea how weird it is. Maybe he knows the guy; the promo quality of the picture speaks to this. If he shares this cubicle with other people, they may have asked at some point.

Maybe it's his brother! Maybe he designed the blow dryer!


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 6:04 PM
horizontal rule
76

I dunno, why can't he just put up a picture of his favorite sportsmen like all the other guys? Nothing weird about that. No siree.


Posted by: minneapolitan | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 6:16 PM
horizontal rule
77

This is why I'm guessing there's a new show based on a comic book coming out. The only arena in which guys who are trying to pass for straight get openly ogly about dude's bodies is when talking about comicbooky things. And the HBO logo in the corner means he's probably hoping someone will ask him, "So, is there a new show coming out on HBO?" and he can be all "ZOMG NEW ADAPTATION." I say ask him.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 6:20 PM
horizontal rule
78

After all, there might be a really cool new comicbooky show coming out, which would be fun to know about.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 6:21 PM
horizontal rule
79

If anyone wants to know how the annual parade down Hollywood Blvd on the Sunday after Thanksgiving is going, I have primo seating.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 6:24 PM
horizontal rule
80

How's it going, WS? What is it a parade of?


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 6:25 PM
horizontal rule
81

So far I've seen Bob Barker, the girls of Deal Or No Deal, and two different high school marching bands. Did you know that high school students look younger and generally less sextastical than they are generally portrayed in film and television?


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 6:26 PM
horizontal rule
82

It is the Hollywood Santa Pararde. The mayor just passed by. "How do you like my grandson, Los Angeles?"


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 6:28 PM
horizontal rule
83

Yeah, I always forget how small and soft and hairless teens are. They're so misrepresented in the media.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 6:32 PM
horizontal rule
84

Yeah, I always forget how small and soft and hairless teens are.

Easy to clean, and good for fricasseeing.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 6:33 PM
horizontal rule
85

Don't forget funny-looking. It is an awkward time of life.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 6:36 PM
horizontal rule
86

The "T-Squad" just passed me. A young boy shouted something boyish. "You like the T-Squad?" I said. He stared at me.

Marching bands have good posture.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 6:39 PM
horizontal rule
87

Fred Willard just came by. He is a funny funny man and it's too bad he doesn't have a microphone.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 6:41 PM
horizontal rule
88

What's a T-Squad?


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 6:41 PM
horizontal rule
89

You know, Eliot Ness and them guys.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 6:41 PM
horizontal rule
90

I don't know, but the kid behind me seemed to. Someone Google it. This parade hasn't really drawn the A-list for a while.

The Marine band looked very clean.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 6:51 PM
horizontal rule
91

Disney hip-hop?


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 6:53 PM
horizontal rule
92

Following the Marines was the "fueled by the fallen" car. A '63 Chevy nova in desert camo with the names of the Marines lost to Operation Iraqi Freedom.

After which, Rip Taylor.


Posted by: wrongshore | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 6:54 PM
horizontal rule
93

"fueled by the fallen" sounds gruesome.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 6:56 PM
horizontal rule
94

Later we'll be hearing from Efren Ramirez of Napoleon Dynamite, Casey Kasem, High School Musical, and gay thriller Dante's Cove.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 6:57 PM
horizontal rule
95

What's the big deal with back hair?

I don't know man, but speaking as someone with back hair, every time I see a guy in the locker room with back hair, I think, "that's so gross, you ape." Because I'm a spoiled only child, I don't go on to think that my own back hair is gross, but let's not pretend that everyone else's isn't.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 7:02 PM
horizontal rule
96

The Disney car just went by. The little kids behind me *loved* them some Mickey.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 7:05 PM
horizontal rule
97

I'll confess. I had some hair on my back. I had it removed. It was free. I wouldnt have done it, but it was free so I figured there wouldnt be too many women who were bummed that I didnt have back hair.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 7:08 PM
horizontal rule
98

Has I'm Not There been discussed here yet? Because that sure was terrible.


Posted by: destroyer | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 7:09 PM
horizontal rule
99

Hollywood High School has a stompin' rhythm section.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 7:09 PM
horizontal rule
100

Destroyer, you're in new jersey, right? I've been meaning to recommend that you go get yourself some DeLorenzo's Pizza from Hudson Street in Trenton. Best in the world. Hamilton Street is good too.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 7:11 PM
horizontal rule
101

I could take the train to Trenton, but I usually ride it the other way to New York.


Posted by: destroyer | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 7:16 PM
horizontal rule
102

Menudo has still got it.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 7:19 PM
horizontal rule
103

"Best in the world." As a tourist destination, New York is somewhat preferable to Trenton. As a pizza destination, trenton holds its own aganst the Colossus.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 7:30 PM
horizontal rule
104

destroyer, are you serious? It was trippy, yes, but I thought it was extremely good. Not very accessible if you don't know the basic arc of his career -- I would think that would make a lot of the scenes just incomphrensible and pointless.

Since we saw the photo here, I was interested in seeing Cate Blanchett. I thought she was the weakest, mostly because she looked just enough like Dylan to make me think she was, and then I'd get distracted by the incongruity of the voice (Australian, I think), walk/mannerisms (feminine), and hairdo (modern). The other five were so different that you never for a second thought they were Dylan, and could just relax.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 7:30 PM
horizontal rule
105

but let's not pretend that everyone else's [back hair] isn't [gross]

Peh, I'll fight this 'til the cows come home. Whatever that phrase means.

As for the Dylan movie, I read a review in the DC City Paper that made little or no sense, and got the impression that either the reviewer was garbled or the movie was.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 7:43 PM
horizontal rule
106

The Miniature Horses of Orange County are awesome. And speedy!


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 7:45 PM
horizontal rule
107

105: Wasn't my review, for the record.


Posted by: Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 7:46 PM
horizontal rule
108

Everyone was overacting, and every scene that involved a Dylan character talking to someone else (rather than just monologuing) was terribly written. The entire Richard Gere sequence was meaningless and tiresome. The invocations of 60s culture (our marriage was deeply related to the Vietnam war: montage!) were trite.


Posted by: destroyer | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 7:48 PM
horizontal rule
109

106: Don't you love mini-horses? I grew up near a mini-horse farm, and my dad still drives my mom past there when she's mad. Ain't no one can stay mad with miniature horses in sight.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 7:50 PM
horizontal rule
110

fueled by the fallen

They continue even in death to reduce our dependence on foreign oil. Semper Fi, brothers!


Posted by: PerfectlyGoddamnDelightful | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 7:51 PM
horizontal rule
111

Were you in the District, parsimon?


Posted by: Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 7:51 PM
horizontal rule
112

Hm, I guess it didn't strike me as overacting because the whole thing seemed designed to be larger than life. I didn't see that anybody was scenery-chewing.

Also, I may have had lower expectations. It was less annoyingly self-conscious than I was afraid it would be.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 7:52 PM
horizontal rule
113

109: nor Menudo, for similar reasons.

The kids behind me were really excited to see the stars of High School Musical.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 8:01 PM
horizontal rule
114

Speaking of hair and Marines, last night a Marine told me he wanted a beard like mine. I told him thanks, but I needed him to shave—for my freedom. He laughed and then we talked about Marine grooming requirements. No idea what the policy on back hair is.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 8:05 PM
horizontal rule
115

111: I was there for the day this past Wednesday, down there from Baltimore. I had to read something on the train back -- and no, of course it wasn't your review of the Dylan movie, I'd have noticed.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 8:08 PM
horizontal rule
116

114:

He just wanted to blend in with the terrorists.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 8:09 PM
horizontal rule
117

Listen apologists (I'm looking at you, LeBlanc and Parsimon): back hair is yuckky. Why? First, because our lack of it differentiates us from the animals. Second, and more importantly, it's because back hair tends to be both dark and sparsish, even on fairly hairy guys, so the effect is kind of like, ew, look, there's some random mangy-looking black hair there scattered around on dude's pale skin. Ick.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 8:16 PM
horizontal rule
118

First, because our lack of it differentiates us from the animals.

Oh come on.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 8:17 PM
horizontal rule
119

117: Racist.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 8:18 PM
horizontal rule
120

B can't help being northern europe-centric.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 8:18 PM
horizontal rule
121

Hey, B., let's talk about leg hair next!


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 8:19 PM
horizontal rule
122

Or rather, everywhere where people tend not to have back hair-centric.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 8:19 PM
horizontal rule
123

Everyone has leg hair. Back hair, everyone does not have. And for a very good reason.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 8:23 PM
horizontal rule
124

I'm surprised at B's comment, because her back hair is pretty hot.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 8:24 PM
horizontal rule
125

Unlike my veiny tits.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 8:25 PM
horizontal rule
126

i don't have leg hair
what's wrong with me


Posted by: read | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 8:27 PM
horizontal rule
127

I'm back and ready to troll shoulder-to-shoulder with you, bitchphd.

Just as women in underdeveloped nations have learned to subsist on leaves and dirt paste, they have accommodated themselves to their gross and hairy men.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 8:28 PM
horizontal rule
128

Everyone has leg hair.

Are you absolutely sure about this? Do people with indigenous heritage (who IME often don't have facial hair) have leg hair?


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 8:29 PM
horizontal rule
129


Back hair is one of those deal-breakers that you unfortunately don't realize broke the deal until you're already naked and about to have sex. This, like gross hairy legs and armpits are to men (I imagine), is one of those things that just make you shudder at the sight touch (and really, avoiding embracing during sex makes it near-prostitution, as does trying not to look at the person) and have not-even-morning-after coyote ugly regret.

It is gross, and so get your backs waxed, gentlemen. If I have to obsessively shave my legs every time, you should remove your alpaca cape.


Posted by: Belle Lettre | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 8:38 PM
horizontal rule
130

s/b "sight and touch"


Posted by: Belle Lettre | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 8:39 PM
horizontal rule
131

like gross hairy legs and armpits are to men

Uh-oh.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 8:41 PM
horizontal rule
132

Do people with indigenous heritage (who IME often don't have facial hair) have leg hair?

I've been trying to figure out if I have an answer for this, but I don't think I do. Another comparison group would be East Asians.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 8:43 PM
horizontal rule
133

I knit my back hairs into my girlfriend's armpit hairs each night for warmth. Haters.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 8:43 PM
horizontal rule
134

Bird never make nest in bare tree.


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 8:44 PM
horizontal rule
135

Unshaven armpits can be hot, ladies.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 8:44 PM
horizontal rule
136

I wonder whether hairfulness/hairlessness really correspond to ethnicities or if it's just random genetics.

I'm Southeast Asian and I have leg hair, which I duly shave for my boyfriend every frickin' time.

However, I have very little arm hair, and my sister and mother hardly have leg hair. My Japanese guy friend has no chest, back, or facial hair really, but I haven't paid attention to his legs. I suspect they are hairy, as most Asian guys' legs are.


Posted by: Belle Lettre | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 8:47 PM
horizontal rule
137

Ben, when I was visiting your undergraduate college I met someone who was growing out her armpit hair, because her boyfriend "had seen it in a movie and thought it looked hot."

Outside of films: not so hot.


Posted by: destroyer | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 8:47 PM
horizontal rule
138

I have less direct experience of hairy-legged womans but imagine it, too, could easily be a matter of indifference or better.

I'm just defensive because I have incipient back hair immediately around the area directly beneath my neck.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 8:47 PM
horizontal rule
139

Another comparison group would be East Asians.

Who are you including in this group? Because boy, was I taken by surprise when shopping at a Japense grocery store. I had no idea there were special razors for women's arm hair, for eyebrows, for every conceivable area on the body that might have an unwanted hair.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 8:49 PM
horizontal rule
140

Destroyer, when I was attending my undergraduate institution there was a girl in one of my classes, whom I called (not to her face, of course) Beautiful Durkheim Girl after the subject of the class, who had unshaven armpits. I admit that my only contact with them was visual, and yet I also am forced—forced by the truth—also to say that, as Derek Bailey might put it, it did her no harm at all in my eyes that she had hairy pits, and in fact it probably enhanced her appeal.

She was really beautiful. Damn. She sure could set the bull-roarers to swinging, if you take my meaning.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 8:51 PM
horizontal rule
141

135:

w-lfs-n, you are an aberration. Perhaps you are thinking of the feral, unkempt sexiness of unshaved armpits. I notice you didn't say that unshaved legs are sexy.

I don't get the hotness, although maybe that's because I have been socialized into thinking it's gross. And not just by you Westerners: (TMI) my mother and all of my Vietnamese female friends and siblings and I remove armpit hair painfully (by plucking), until it's way smoother than anything you could get by a razor.

I think you are remembering how hot Tang Wei is, and generalizing to the wider female population. This is a sampling error.


Posted by: Belle Lettre | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 8:52 PM
horizontal rule
142

I have incipient back hair

It only gets worse, young Ben.

I think we've been over the leg/armpit hair on women thing. It's a totally socialized taste and plenty of guys think it's fine; it's not like there's a fact of the matter.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 8:52 PM
horizontal rule
143

Also, I am also compelled to do some other things also.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 8:52 PM
horizontal rule
144

I wonder whether hairfulness/hairlessness really correspond to ethnicities or if it's just random genetics.

I suspect there are general tendencies between ethnicities, but a lot of internal variation. If Asians tend to have leg hair, then Native Americans probably do as well.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 8:52 PM
horizontal rule
145

138:

Ehhh, that's not so bad. One time I was with a guy who basically had a sweater and it tufted from the shoulder blades. It felt itchy and gross. I went through with it to my chagrin, but clicked "ignore" on his phone calls the next day and thereafter.


Posted by: Belle Lettre | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 8:54 PM
horizontal rule
146

Ah, right. Tang Wei: also extremely hot, also unshaven as to the pits. A friend of mine in high school also didn't shave her pits also and also was quite attractive, also.

The source of the Derek Bailey reference, for the curious. I highly recommend that even the incurious listen. It's not his normal amelodic stuff; Loren Connors and Jim O'Rourke play kind of hazy stuff in the background while Derek talks about guitars and the name "George".


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 8:54 PM
horizontal rule
147

And now Belle Lettre has closed off my next troll avenue of arguing that guys find Asian women hot because they're naturally hairless. Way to go, BL.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 8:55 PM
horizontal rule
148

Sometimes seeing something you didn't think you were attracted to as a feature on someone who blows your mind makes that other feature incredibly attractive in a way that can be applied to further lust-objects.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 8:55 PM
horizontal rule
149

Who are you including in this group?

Roughly, everyone with ancestors from the area east of India and north of Australia.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 8:56 PM
horizontal rule
150

Quo' Derek:

When my partner and I first got together ... I tried to persuade her to change her name to George. I said, "You got used ... to the name Karen, but why don't we use George, for a while. You'll like it."

She didn't want to know. And, when we were first making love, I would sometimes, in passion, cry out, "George!". It caused a certain amount of difficulty ... even when I changed it to Georgette ... she wasn't happy. So ... so dropped it. But now sometimes I think ... hmmm.

But we were talking about ... the guitar. My guitars are all called George. Yes. No problem for them, being called George. They don't give me any kind of ... argument ... at all.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 8:57 PM
horizontal rule
151

147: I thought it was supposed to be the submissiveness. A willingness to painfully pluck hair to meet male standards could be rolled into that.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 8:57 PM
horizontal rule
152

IME, members of the group described in 149 tend to be noticeably less hairy than Native Americans, but this might be due to greater social emphasis on depilation rather than any inherent physical difference.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 8:58 PM
horizontal rule
153

remove armpit hair painfully (by plucking)

Ow, ow, owie, owie.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 8:59 PM
horizontal rule
154

No problem, Ogged.

The sheer amount of hair removal products, devices, and tortuous methods passed down from mother to daughter (threading, sugaring, plucking, ow) in Asian stores (not to mention all the bleaching products!) should convince you all that Asian women are not naturally hairless, although we are indeed hot.

Yellow fever creeps me out. I once had a guy say that Asian women were appealing because of their "fragility." I wanted to bitchslap him. Another guy kept stalking Asian girls and saying "hi" in what he believed to be their "native language." Creepy transplants from the East Coast who encounter their first mass experience of hot Asian girls on the West Coast are trouble. Add the fact that this was law school and so they had yellow fever _and_ were assholes.


Posted by: Belle Lettre | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 9:00 PM
horizontal rule
155

Armpit hair on women is totally hot. Partly this is because hair in places that are generally kept covered is a sexual signal (think pubic hair); partly it is because armpit hair, unlike back hair, is thick enough not to look mangy.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 9:01 PM
horizontal rule
156

a lot of internal variation

This, for sure. Siblings can vary dramatically, per 136.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 9:02 PM
horizontal rule
157

IME, members of the group described in 149 tend to be noticeably less hairy than Native Americans

But aren't Native Americans, in fact, members of the group described in 149?


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 9:02 PM
horizontal rule
158

tortuous

Torturous, unless you mean they're twisty.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 9:03 PM
horizontal rule
159

And yes, many Indians and Asians (all my Filipino boyfriends, for instance) have very sparse hair below the knee. But sparse hair is not no hair.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 9:03 PM
horizontal rule
160

I like Asian women because their assimilation issues are poignant.

That's ok, right?

I'm kidding. I don't like Asian women.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 9:03 PM
horizontal rule
161

But aren't Native Americans, in fact, members of the group described in 149?

I was thinking of the area as being bounded by the Pacific as well.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 9:03 PM
horizontal rule
162


You pedant. Yes I meant the latter. I also mean "and" whenever I type "adn." Glad you pick this stuff up.


Posted by: Belle Lettre | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 9:04 PM
horizontal rule
163

Glad you pick this stuff up.

I know you are.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 9:05 PM
horizontal rule
164

We don't like you either, Ogged. We go for whiteys.


Posted by: Belle Lettre | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 9:05 PM
horizontal rule
165

armpit hair, unlike back hair, is thick enough not to look mangy

Not all armpit hair is made equal. Some people have very sparse armpit hair, but I'd hardly call it mangy. Cough.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 9:05 PM
horizontal rule
166


Damn you, w-lfs-n, for maknig me pwyn myself!


Posted by: Belle Lettre | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 9:06 PM
horizontal rule
167

whiteys

The preferred term is "honkies."


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 9:06 PM
horizontal rule
168

165 seconded.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 9:06 PM
horizontal rule
169

We go for whiteys.

This is where 9/10 Iranians would proudly tell you that "Iran" and "Aryan" are related.

JM, don't stress about your armpit hair; these people are mere vessels forthe tastes of 21st century consumerist America. Only an Iranian can love you up properly.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 9:07 PM
horizontal rule
170

I'd hardly call it mangy. Cough.

That sounds like kennel cough to me. You might want to have that and the sparse hair problem looked into by a vet.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 9:07 PM
horizontal rule
171

We go for whiteys.

Woohoo! Suck it, Shi'a!


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 9:08 PM
horizontal rule
172

Armpit hair on women can indeed be hot. But nipple hair is unattractive. So is out-of-control pubic hair that sprawls all over the inner thighs and lower stomach. There, I have spoken.

Also, I hate it when women use the feminist I-cannot-be-submissive thing to avoid grooming they don't like. This is often in the very next sentence after asking me to shave twice a day because my facial hair scratches, or some such thing.


Posted by: PerfectlyGoddamnDelightful | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 9:09 PM
horizontal rule
173

Was there ever a thread determining how groomed pubic hair should be on Unfogged, or would asking this cause you all to smack your foreheads?


Posted by: Belle Lettre | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 9:11 PM
horizontal rule
174

Also, I hate it when women use the feminist I-cannot-be-submissive thing to avoid grooming they don't like.

Shaving does cause ingrown hairs, though. Painful!


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 9:12 PM
horizontal rule
175

I predict that Ben will attack the grammatic imprecision of the above in ten seconds.


Posted by: Belle Lettre | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 9:12 PM
horizontal rule
176

This is where 9/10 Iranians would proudly tell you that "Iran" and "Aryan" are related.

She means real white, not technically white, Shi'a.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 9:12 PM
horizontal rule
177

I keep calling myself a lurker and then succumbing to the temptation to comment lately--o the hypocrisy--but since I know my stomach would be churning if the genders would reversed I thought I would note that, while I don't know if there was more to the story than what was told, rejecting someone who's calling you after sex by ignoring them, and justifying that method of rejection to yourself because you didn't like something about his body, certainly sounds quite callous and rude. I just thought someone should say it, because when that kind of thing passes uncommented on it becomes normative.

In general, men have as much a right to have non-standard bodies as women do, and have no obligation to follow someone's rules for how they should look.


Posted by: Tia | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 9:13 PM
horizontal rule
178

173: Oh, yes.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 9:14 PM
horizontal rule
179

She means real white, not technically white, Shi'a.

Guess that means Jews are out too. It's probably for the best; we're pretty hairy.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 9:14 PM
horizontal rule
180

Tia is reifying the patriarchy.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 9:15 PM
horizontal rule
181

partly it is because armpit hair, unlike back hair, is thick enough not to look mangy

Unfortunately not always. In my 5+ not-shaving-anything years, I'd still shave my pits in the summer, because the only stuff I could grow there was wispy and gross looking.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 9:15 PM
horizontal rule
182

rrromantic instrument, electric guitar..
that's what, though i could not listen to it till the end
really good old movies, but the disinterested please watch it with sound off


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 9:16 PM
horizontal rule
183

True that no one is obliged to follow others' rules. But as with any social rule, one should not be surprised if not conforming to the tastes of others leads to phone calls not getting returned, etc.

Also true BL was rude, but that kind of behavior is not uncommon in either sex.


Posted by: PerfectlyGoddamnDelightful | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 9:16 PM
horizontal rule
184

I thought I would note that, while I don't know if there was more to the story than what was told, rejecting someone who's calling you after sex by ignoring them, and justifying that method of rejection to yourself because you didn't like something about his body, certainly sounds quite callous and rude. I just thought someone should say it, because when that kind of thing passes uncommented on it becomes normative.

Thanks, Tia. I was thinking about saying something like this, but then I figured everyone would just assume I was being defensive about my hairy back.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 9:17 PM
horizontal rule
185

179: Post 9/11, Jews are whiter than Iranians.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 9:17 PM
horizontal rule
186

read, you have to sign your comments.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 9:17 PM
horizontal rule
187

177:

There was more to this story.

It's fortunately a non-issue now, because he stopped calling me after the one time he called the next day, sent one email when he went out of the country for a few months, and now I have a boyfriend. So actually, apart from the one phone call I rejected (but I called when ready to talk and left a friendly voicemail wishing him a good trip) and the email to which I also responded (saying glad you are having a good time in Spain, there was no contact to keep up, so I'm actually not sure who rejected whom.

Not that I would require anyone to conform to any physical standard to be with me, but if I don't want to be with someone I was with for one night, why am I obligated to? I responded friendly-like but with no lead-on promises for more, and are not women entitled to have one-night stands and keep them that way as much as men are?


Posted by: Belle Lettre | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 9:20 PM
horizontal rule
188

one should not be surprised if not conforming to the tastes of others leads to phone calls not getting returned, etc.

Um, wait, what? People who can't get their act together to admit like a grown-up that they don't want to see someone else again are justified in being rude (borderline obnoxious)?

(Yes, I realize you didn't actually say they were justified.) Just -- sheesh. This is not the world I live in, nor want to.

(And thanks, Tia and Teo.)


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 9:21 PM
horizontal rule
189

Motherfucker.

Well, at least New England won't cover the spread. Moral victory!


Posted by: PerfectlyGoddamnDelightful | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 9:21 PM
horizontal rule
190

188 crossed with 187, which is clearly not the type of scenario I was describing.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 9:22 PM
horizontal rule
191

The story as first told sounded like "I slept with him but stopped returning his calls because he was hairy."


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 9:22 PM
horizontal rule
192

I figure if you're sexually attracted to someone, nearly anything ancillary can be incorporated into that attraction. If you're sexually attracted primarily to some idea of hairlessness, no hairy person is ever going to fit the bill for you. Some people are fetishy about their hair requirements. For me it's not a thing, but largely because of what I said in 148. You have really hot sex with a guy with a chest-pelt; chest hair becomes attractive. You also have really hot sex with a smooth-chested person; hairlessness is equally hot.

For those who are picky about hair, does it have something to do with the trends of your previous sex life, that everyone fit a certain pattern and so you don't associate sexiness with anything but that?


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 9:23 PM
horizontal rule
193

If I read 192 correctly, AWB is saying "sex can be hott", and I wholeheartedly agree. Body hair as a dealbreaker baffles me, but hey, you people are crazy.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 9:26 PM
horizontal rule
194

AWB gets it exactly right.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 9:26 PM
horizontal rule
195

I, too, concur with 192.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 9:27 PM
horizontal rule
196

This is not the world I live in, nor want to.

If you're single, you do live in this world, at least until you've established a base of trust and committment with an individual. It's sort of dog-eat-dog until then. Frankly, I don't think there's much difference emotionally between having someone call you up to tell you they aren't interested in seeing you again and having them simply stop returning your calls.


Posted by: PerfectlyGoddamnDelightful | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 9:27 PM
horizontal rule
197

Some people are fetishy about their hair requirements. For me it's not a thing, but largely because of what I said in 148. You have really hot sex with a guy with a chest-pelt; chest hair becomes attractive. You also have really hot sex with a smooth-chested person; hairlessness is equally hot.

Totally pwned by Glaucon, that erotic man.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 9:29 PM
horizontal rule
198

People have different dealbreakers. Back hair, height, weight, cup size, etc. Who cares? Nobody's owed. And I feel certain that someone's sleeping with those hairy-backed motherfuckers.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 9:29 PM
horizontal rule
199

193: Sorry, I didn't argue that well. I guess I meant, like, say you don't think of yourself as someone who's into, uh, like a huge bush. But there you find yourself with the most exciting lady on earth, and she's got a huge bush. Afterwards, you just might develop a sort of thing for huge pubic hair, or at least be more open-minded in the future, thanks to the most exciting lady on earth.

Because I am not the most exciting lady on earth, I feel the need to keep all that under control. But man, if I was all super-gorgeous and awesome? I'd rock it. Big time.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 9:29 PM
horizontal rule
200

Republic, 474d-475a:

"It was proper for another, Glaucon, to say what you're saying," I said. "But it's not proper for an erotic man to forget that all boys in the bloom of youth in one way or another put their sting in an erotic lover of boys and arouse him; all seem worthy of attention and delight. Or don't you people behave that way with the fair? You praise the boy with a snub nose by calling him 'cute'; the hook-nose of another you say is 'kingly'; and the boy between those two is 'well proportioned'; the dark look 'manly'; and the white are 'children of gods'. And as for the 'honey-colored', do you suppose their very name is the work of anyone other than a lover who renders sallowness endearing and easily puts up with it if it accompanies the bloom of youth? And, in a word, you people take advantage of every excuse and employ any expression so as to reject none of those who glow with the bloom of youth."

(Previously!)


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 9:31 PM
horizontal rule
201

I don't agree with 192. I've had technically good sex, good performance with people who I didn't find physically attractive, and that didn't make them suddenly physically attractive to me. In my experience, physical preferences are set pretty early on, and they are hard to change. Falling in love (which is quite different than just "good sex") can make you attracted to features you wouldn't otherwise have liked, but only within a range.

Always seemed to me that women had greater flexibility in their physical tastes based on emotional attraction, but I might be influenced by stereotypes here.


Posted by: PerfectlyGoddamnDelightful | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 9:32 PM
horizontal rule
202

Frankly, I don't think there's much difference emotionally between having someone call you up to tell you they aren't interested in seeing you again and having them simply stop returning your calls.

What? I think there's a huge difference between knowing definitively that it's over and never being sure.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 9:32 PM
horizontal rule
203

198:

I actually always would give almost any guy a second date break, unless seriously creeped out or whatever. I always give a call or email to say thanks, but haven't always received one.

Dealbreakers are ones that might prohibit any longevity going forward: if I'm not attracted to long hair, back hair, or a guy's personality, I doubt I could keep dating him for long. If it's something I could get used to, a second date is in order. If not, I don't see the point in pretending, and so it's a relief to not have to get to the point where you tell someone you don't want to be with them and they ask why and you can't say anything. Better to stop the process early.

I say, conduct yourself with politeness, but don't feel obligated to change your own inclinations if you aren't likewise requiring them to change themselves. No one should have to compromise so much in the beginning. Attraction is what it is and comes in all forms, just like human bodies.


Posted by: Belle Lettre | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 9:35 PM
horizontal rule
204

In 192 (and its predecessor, 148) AWB speaks the truth.


Posted by: mrh | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 9:35 PM
horizontal rule
205

technically good sex

Now that certainly sounds like the apotheosis of hotness.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 9:37 PM
horizontal rule
206

202:

Oh, you're sure, after a week or two of no contact.

It lacks closure, but then again I'm not sure people always want to know why they are not liked enough to be asked out again.

I really liked one guy I went out with this summer, but he never called, despite me telling him a few days after our first date that I wish he had kissed me. Oh well. So much for "let's do this again." All the end-of-date palliatives mean nothing sometimes.


Posted by: Belle Lettre | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 9:38 PM
horizontal rule
207

Is anyone saying that we shouldn't have our preferences? (Of course, you can be called shallow for the preferences that you have, but there are worse things to be.)


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 9:39 PM
horizontal rule
208

It is gross, and so get your backs waxed, gentlemen.

No one should have to compromise so much in the beginning.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 9:39 PM
horizontal rule
209

205: yeah, RFTS, I stuck that "technically" in there to connote the peculiar double quality of good sex with someone you're not that physically attracted to. It's hot in one sense, not that hot in another. One of the many odd pathways that promiscuity can lead you down.


Posted by: PerfectlyGoddamnDelightful | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 9:40 PM
horizontal rule
210

207: I tend to think of all my own "preferences" as something more like "but this is all I know!" Obviously, I fall into certain patterns of attraction, which are weird and mysterious to me, but they feel provisional, as if, any day, I might start become violently attracted to entirely different groups of people. Who can tell?

But I'm young. Maybe the older crustier types among us will come out and say, "Oh, no, after 40 years of sexual maturity, I realize I'm still into the same C-cup size 6 redheads with leghair that I liked when I was a lad."


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 9:42 PM
horizontal rule
211

208:

If you want to date hair-sensitive women, which are potentially a large segment of the female population, especially in urban environments. If you don't, don't wax, and don't change yourself.

But if you don't change, neither will I, and I can't try to be attracted to something I'm not.


Posted by: Belle Lettre | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 9:42 PM
horizontal rule
212

I hate it when women use the feminist I-cannot-be-submissive thing to avoid grooming they don't like. This is often in the very next sentence after asking me to shave twice a day because my facial hair scratches, or some such thing.

Must point out that "avoiding grooming one doesn't like" =/ "scratching someone else's face."

Also, I am sorry, but the right of men to have non-standard bodies is hardly a major social problem.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 9:43 PM
horizontal rule
213

I can't try to be attracted to something I'm not

I'm mostly with you, BL, but I think some attractions are more changeable than people think. My guess is that the more precise disavowal is "it's not worthwhile for me to work on changing this thing that I am/am not attracted to."


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 9:44 PM
horizontal rule
214

Attraction is indeed pretty changable. All you have to do is pay attention. For instance, I have at least once in my life assured a gentleman that his back hair was a complete non-issue, and in his case, this was true.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 9:47 PM
horizontal rule
215

212: Fine then, switch scratchy facial hair with any of the myriad other things that your partner asks you to do to please them. Like changing dressing styles, cooking and eating habits, etc. Most all of which I'm glad to do -- pleasing each other is a big part of what relationships are about.


Posted by: PerfectlyGoddamnDelightful | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 9:47 PM
horizontal rule
216

213:

Yes, thanks for putting it more precisely.


Posted by: Belle Lettre | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 9:47 PM
horizontal rule
217

My boyfriends were all free of back hair. I don't know whether it would be gross in bed, but dark wiry hair on pale skin always skeezes me out if it pokes out of the collar of a T-shirt. Downy hair or blond hair doesn't bother me. It's a good thing my mother's family immigrated from Sicily.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 9:47 PM
horizontal rule
218

And I was touched, B.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 9:47 PM
horizontal rule
219

Obviously, I fall into certain patterns of attraction, which are weird and mysterious to me, but they feel provisional, as if, any day, I might start become violently attracted to entirely different groups of people. Who can tell?

Huh. My preferences are not fixed and eternal, but they seem to vary within some pretty constant limits.


Posted by: mrh | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 9:48 PM
horizontal rule
220

218: Our mutual admiration of one another's back hair brought us together; alas, it was not strong enough to form a lasting bond.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 9:49 PM
horizontal rule
221

210: "What do you look for in a woman now, granddad?" "Patience."


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 9:50 PM
horizontal rule
222

219: But you're married! So this is probably best.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 9:50 PM
horizontal rule
223

Also, I am sorry, but the right of men to have non-standard bodies is hardly a major social problem.

I can't believe you didn't put the phrase "The poor dears!" in this thread somewhere.

I am intensely aggravated by this discussion in general.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 9:50 PM
horizontal rule
224

Aw, Ned. I'm sure your fiancee adores every follicle of your back carpet.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 9:52 PM
horizontal rule
225

We'll wax your back for you if you come to UnfoggeDCon, Ned.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 9:53 PM
horizontal rule
226

Styptic Ned.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 9:54 PM
horizontal rule
227

I am somewhat aggravated by this discussion, but mostly because I was already upset about something else (discussed in another thread).


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 9:54 PM
horizontal rule
228

I'd describe most of my physical preferences as easily overridden. Ask me to describe my typical knight-in-shining-armor, and I can probably name a few things, but if I look at who I've actually dated or crushed on, there's not a whole lot of patterns beyond "broad shoulders."


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 9:54 PM
horizontal rule
229

Fuck, 226 is awesome.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 9:55 PM
horizontal rule
230

219: mrh has, perhaps unintentionally, settled it for me. PerfectlyGoddamnDelightful is the marrying sort, and when he finds his perfectly trimmed madam, his eye shall no more rove. All you picky types, in fact, have a thing you're looking for, and may find it, and then you'll know you're done, and you can settle in. Eh?


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 9:55 PM
horizontal rule
231

But you're married! So this is probably best.

Obviously, my peerless and incredibly beautiful wife is the focal point around which my attractions orbit.


Posted by: mrh | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 9:56 PM
horizontal rule
232

All you picky types, in fact, have a thing you're looking for, and may find it, and then you'll know you're done, and you can settle in. Eh?

You do too, you know. Just haven't found it yet.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 9:56 PM
horizontal rule
233

230: Perhaps, but I'm the marrying sort and my preferences are much more like yours, so the correlation doesn't go both ways.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 9:56 PM
horizontal rule
234

232: Right, everyone has a perfect soul mate out there. Keep on believing that.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 9:57 PM
horizontal rule
235

I was about to say something like 233.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 9:58 PM
horizontal rule
236

Scrabble inquiry: roommate is inquiring on the use of "polloi" (as in "hoi polloi"). I, being the one not currently playing and thus the arbiter, vetoed, but she cited the rules, which allow "words of foreign origin" (that is, not specifically "English words of foreign origin"). What sayest thou, Mineshaft?


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 9:58 PM
horizontal rule
237

236: No dice, roommate loses a turn.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 9:59 PM
horizontal rule
238

236: It's not in the official dictionary.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 9:59 PM
horizontal rule
239

Cala's 221 is so true. As is 217, come to think of it.

Also, on the peculiar doubleness of hot / not hot sex: the weirdest is very bad sex with someone really beautiful. Obviously not hot, yet also hot in a way that makes you realize you are a slave to desire.

I'm clearly working up the inspiration to write a Modern Love here.


Posted by: PerfectlyGoddamnDelightful | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 9:59 PM
horizontal rule
240

232: Boo, Benjamin.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 10:00 PM
horizontal rule
241

the weirdest is very bad sex with someone really beautiful

I'm not quite willing to sign on to "weirdest," but I'll definitely cast a vote for "very weird" and also "very disappointing."


Posted by: mrh | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 10:01 PM
horizontal rule
242

What a thing to say about your wife, mrh.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 10:02 PM
horizontal rule
243

237-8: I concur. Some asshat just tried to pass off "lazer", too. Jesus.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 10:02 PM
horizontal rule
244

Do not make me come over there, BW.


Posted by: mrh | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 10:03 PM
horizontal rule
245

Lazer, noun, one who is lazy.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 10:03 PM
horizontal rule
246

243: Obviously the various scrabble players are all following the same non-rules, so you can recuse yourself.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 10:03 PM
horizontal rule
247

You can arbitrate with this, Stanley.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 10:04 PM
horizontal rule
248

Actually, the official Scrabble dictionary sucks ass.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 10:05 PM
horizontal rule
249

Oh but last night did I destroy Susan and catherine in a game of Scrabble.


Posted by: Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 10:06 PM
horizontal rule
250

247: Thanks!


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 10:06 PM
horizontal rule
251

248: We normally use the shorter OED, but I'm not breaking that out for this amateur hour.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 10:07 PM
horizontal rule
252

I gave all my back hair to kids with cancer.

That's a lie; they didn't have cancer.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 10:08 PM
horizontal rule
253

Can someone explain the photo at the top of the link in 247? Did they recently change the recommended ages for Scrabble?


Posted by: mrh | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 10:08 PM
horizontal rule
254

I played my first timed Scrabble game this week and it really unnerved me. I've been playing terrible Scrabble ever since.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 10:08 PM
horizontal rule
255

B is right about the official Scrabble dictionary and about 232 ("Right, everyone has a perfect soul mate out there. Keep on believing that."). Harsh truths, but suck it up. Ben is right about 'lazer,' so basically this is one fucked game of Scrabble.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 10:08 PM
horizontal rule
256

251: Fair enough. I'm a big fan of OED scrabble, but Mr. B. will insist on a rule that you can look things up *before* playing them, which means the game stretches out for hours as he flips through trying to find every possible word that contains all the 10-point letters.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 10:08 PM
horizontal rule
257

Mr. B. will insist on a rule that you can look things up *before* playing them

WTF? Isn't that totally contrary to the spirit of the game?


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 10:10 PM
horizontal rule
258

256: My great grandma used to do that but under the guise of challenging people! She was slick.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 10:10 PM
horizontal rule
259

257: He argues that it allows him a handicap, since he's a pretty crappy speller and otherwise I would beat the crap out of him.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 10:11 PM
horizontal rule
260

Stanley, I want to adopt your family.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 10:12 PM
horizontal rule
261

We tend to use the permission system, not the challenge. We also adjust for alcohol consumed; after so many beers, all that matters is that a simple majority of judges agrees that XLMOP is a sensical contribution.


Posted by: Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 10:12 PM
horizontal rule
262

Not a medium-sized or even a large mop, but an XLMOP?


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 10:13 PM
horizontal rule
263

Stanley, I want to adopt your family.

Do we have to shave our backs, or will you take the family as-is?


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 10:16 PM
horizontal rule
264

258: You've played Scrabble with your great-grandmother? Either 253 is right or you've got some damn short generations there.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 10:16 PM
horizontal rule
265

256: there is no other word for that but CHEATING. CHEATING!

Perfect soulmates is such obvious hogwash that once you have some experience you can hardly believe anyone gives it creedence at all. But relationships themselves are so particular and provisional that it might be true there's a possible one for every person. I know a couple who have been married for 26 years and lived in the same city for a total of about 6 months, despite every opportunity.


Posted by: PerfectlyGoddamnDelightful | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 10:17 PM
horizontal rule
266

263: You definitely fall into the "has no flaws, by definition" category, Stan.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 10:18 PM
horizontal rule
267

241: Yeah, I wouldn't even call that "weird". Just because it involves a bit of cognitive dissonance doesn't mean it should be bewildering.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 10:18 PM
horizontal rule
268

You've played Scrabble with your great-grandmother?

Ayup. She had my grandmother at sixteen. My grandma had my mom at sixteen. Great grandma passed away when I was in high school. Grandma is rather young and quite spry. Last time Grandma and I played Scrabble, she said "Fuck!" when I beat her.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 10:21 PM
horizontal rule
269

67: Actually, I'm rather surprised when someone extremely beautiful is good in bed. It's neat, like they did a cool trick or something.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 10:22 PM
horizontal rule
270

269 to 267, of course.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 10:22 PM
horizontal rule
271

259: He gets extra blank tiles then.

267: Cognitive dissonance is my operational definition of weirdness. But I'm basically a pretty cognitive person.


Posted by: PerfectlyGoddamnDelightful | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 10:23 PM
horizontal rule
272

268: Whoa. All my great-grandparents died long before I was born.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 10:24 PM
horizontal rule
273

Yeah, but cognitive dissonance occurs a lot. You think someone's standing to your left but then you hear their voice coming from your right. OMG! But not exactly memorably weird.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 10:25 PM
horizontal rule
274

You definitely fall into the "has no flaws, by definition" category, Stan.

Aw, shucks.

He gets extra blank tiles then.

Great grandma also liked to turn over letter tiles and make them into blank tiles. "Wait a minute. There are nine blank tiles on the board?!"


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 10:25 PM
horizontal rule
275

My grandmother used to turn over tiles to make blanks. It was pretty funny when she got away with it at first and then someone discovered that, wait a second, there's another blank!

shivbunny is fucking evil at Scrabble. He makes the damned board look like a crossword puzzle.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 10:26 PM
horizontal rule
276

None of my great-grandparents would even have shared a common language with me.


Posted by: PerfectlyGoddamnDelightful | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 10:26 PM
horizontal rule
277

That'll teach me to preview. Back on the veldt, people previewed so they could club people who would pwn them word for word.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 10:27 PM
horizontal rule
278

I am an evil bastard, at Scrabble and pwning.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 10:30 PM
horizontal rule
279

Back on the veldt, people who knew the word "veldt" did better at Scrabble by a small but reproductively significant margin.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 10:32 PM
horizontal rule
280

273: It can't be dissonances that are resolvable quickly once a simple error is realized. I groove on the kind of pseudo-profound cognitive dissonance that goes to fundamental life conflicts and provides an excuse for bad poetry. Physical beauty is rich, compelling, and attractive...yet mysteriously empty! Both completely true at the same time!


Posted by: PerfectlyGoddamnDelightful | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 10:33 PM
horizontal rule
281

All my great-grandparents died long before I was born.

I think the last one of mine died 10 years before I was born. I was born in 1982 and my one great-grandmother was born in 1876.

My mom was the age of the grandmother of one of my friends from the church youth group. But she was 33 when I was born, not exactly Elizabeth Edwards.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 10:34 PM
horizontal rule
282

My tribe is quite fertile and active. I pity all of you.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 10:37 PM
horizontal rule
283

Physical beauty is rich

Expensive, yes, but rich? I'm like eh on it. It's sort of a novelty, sometimes, but rarely important.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 10:37 PM
horizontal rule
284

The entire history of Western figurative art makes no sense if 283 is true.

On the other hand, AWB is a literary intellectual and not an art historian.


Posted by: PerfectlyGoddamnDelightful | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 10:39 PM
horizontal rule
285

284: Fine, but we were all born in the 20th century, an era of near-complete aesthetic dissociation of value from harmonious loveliness, except in kitsch. Most of us have more interesting taste in music and art than the superficially lovely; why not more interesting taste in people as well?


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 10:42 PM
horizontal rule
286

I prefer my people assonant and brick-wall limited.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 10:43 PM
horizontal rule
287

My tribe is quite fertile and active. I pity all of you. And hairy. Oh, the humanity!


Posted by: md 20/400 | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 10:46 PM
horizontal rule
288

Most of us have more interesting taste in music and art than the superficially lovely; why not more interesting taste in people as well?

If I actually know somebody and think she's beautiful, it's not just because of the way her face looks in photographs, it's more like a total sensory experience of beauty, containing her facial expressions, body, walk, body language, etc. I wouldn't call it superficial. So I think there would be some cognitive dissonance when the few aspects of her that are hidden from view turn out to not fit in with the rest of the picture.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 10:47 PM
horizontal rule
289

I only care about how she comments? Is that superficial? Very well, then I am superficial.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 10:49 PM
horizontal rule
290

There is one question mark too many in 289.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 10:51 PM
horizontal rule
291

Okay, clearly I was raised on snakes and spiderwebs, but all the stories I grew up with were usually about beauty and grace hiding at best emptiness, and at worst malice. So while I can be open-minded about the possibility of a gorgeous person harboring a heart of gold, I certainly don't expect more of the good-looking, and especially not in bed.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 10:51 PM
horizontal rule
292

There is one question mark too many in 289?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 10:52 PM
horizontal rule
293

285: I'm afraid I'm one of the boring people who clog up your world, AWB, full of stereotypical tastes. Like most people, I would benefit if the rigid and undemocratic standards of physical beauty had less influence than they do, but I have to admit they influence me.

But actually I would argue that the 20th and 21st centuries have been just as worshipful of "harmonious loveliness" as any previous period -- but you need to look to fashion, television, movies, and other popular arts. True that there has been a weird split with the avant-garde that was not present in other periods, but that is perhaps because the avant-garde has become more intellectual / conceptual and less sensual.


Posted by: PerfectlyGoddamnDelightful | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 10:52 PM
horizontal rule
294

My last great grandparent died the year I was born. My daughter, though, played Scrabble with her great grandmother. We play hardass rules around here: you have to be able to say what the word means, especially those fakey two letter words.

As noted earlier, I liked the Dylan movie, but don't think hardly anyone under about 50 ought to be going to see it. I liked Cate Blanchette the best I think, and while I didn't think the Gere segments ultimately worked, evocation of the Peckinpah movie, and of Rolling Thunder, was an interesting experiment.


Posted by: Nápi | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 10:52 PM
horizontal rule
295

289-90: "Show me your comments!" is what he meant.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 10:52 PM
horizontal rule
296

291: sometimes the ugliest people have the shiniest genitals.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 10:53 PM
horizontal rule
297

I only care about how she comments[.] Is that superficial? Very well, then I am superficial.

This was the theme of a post which, since it consisted entirely of a cartoon from the New Yorker, I can no longer locate.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 10:56 PM
horizontal rule
298

296: It's not an accident that Emilio Estévez didn't take on the Sheen family name.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 10:56 PM
horizontal rule
299

all the stories I grew up with were usually about beauty and grace hiding at best emptiness, and at worst malice.

Cinderella is still beautiful, even if badly dressed, and the witch still has a wart. Glinda is blonde and lovely, and the Wicked Witch is, well, green.

There are of course stories that emphasize the external/internal beauty split, but I don't think that's particularly 20th century...it goes back at least to Christianity and its suspicion of pagan values.

I only care about how she comments

This is why I can't believe people like Sifu and Apo don't have women *lined up around the block*. Such perfect comments, pithily pwning all around them.


Posted by: PerfectlyGoddamnDelightful | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 10:57 PM
horizontal rule
300

Of course, all this means is that, with the beautiful, I employ the soft bigotry of low expectations in bed. Oh look at you! With your little maneuver there!


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 10:58 PM
horizontal rule
301

291: YMMV? I've known lovely people who turned out to be quite lovely.

AWB and PerfectlyGoddamnDelightful might as well be having a conversation about George Condo. I can't speak to all genres but I think there is still a great deal of "sensuality" to be found in visual art, even when beauty is the subject (and is the subject of scrutiny).


Posted by: Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 10:59 PM
horizontal rule
302

Shorter Armsmasher: "Just because I'm DC's Hottest Media Type doesn't mean I'm bad in bed, people".


Posted by: Becks | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 11:00 PM
horizontal rule
303

I would fuck some visual art in the ass, without paying, even.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 11:00 PM
horizontal rule
304

299: Yeah, as I implied, there wasn't a lot of Cinderella or Wizard of Oz at the Bear residence.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 11:01 PM
horizontal rule
305

301: I'm of course speaking of contemporary art from the privileged position of one who does not know what he is talking about. But we represent the majority!

Helmut Newton seems to be getting some artistic respect lately. He had a pagan fascination with beauty.

P.S. you all have my permission to refer to me as "PGD" for ease of typing.


Posted by: PerfectlyGoddamnDelightful | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 11:04 PM
horizontal rule
306

I would fuck some visual art in the ass, without paying, even.

I would let non-visual art give me aural.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 11:04 PM
horizontal rule
307

all the stories I grew up with were usually about beauty and grace hiding at best emptiness, and at worst malice.

You're right, although that concept shows up a lot less than the princess who is beautiful and is sweet and kind too.

But I think that would apply to beautiful people whose beauty is accepted by the conventional wisdom, or people who everyone agrees are beautiful. It would be a different issue if Person A honestly and independently finds Person B to be beautiful, and therefore feels like the logical thing to do is to assume that Person B must be unbeautiful underneath. That's the only way you could get to a point where you actually expect somebody's physical appeal to be negatively correlated with their actual goodness.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 11:07 PM
horizontal rule
308

303: Near Lucca, Italy, I met an artisani who showed me a piece that Jeff Koons had commissioned but neither picked up nor paid for: a marple sculpture showing the artist anally penetrating his (now former) wife. Along the lines of this work. The artisani said he was really sore about it for a long time because he'd gone to lengths to make it lifelike.


Posted by: Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 11:07 PM
horizontal rule
309

a point where you actually expect somebody's physical appeal to be negatively correlated with their actual goodness.

No sillier than expecting it to be positively correlated with actual goodness. I'm not saying I expect greater evil from beautiful people, but why expect greater good?


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 11:09 PM
horizontal rule
310

Thank you, 'smasher, for reminding me just how much I hate Koons and his work.


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 11:11 PM
horizontal rule
311

308: lube ameliorates soreness.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 11:13 PM
horizontal rule
312

309: It's way sillier, AWB. Greater arousal should lead you to expect you're going to have greater sex, not worse. Why shouldn't being very aroused by someone's appearance lead you to think, even if mistakenly, that you're going to have some hott sex? If you haven't had sex with someone you're in a bit of an all-things-being-equal situation, anyway—the thing you can dependably predict going in is how amped you'll be about teh sex, and that affects both your expectations and your perception. Maybe I'm just shallow, but I don't see how being pretty ought to be a sexual strike against a person.


Posted by: Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 11:15 PM
horizontal rule
313

309: I don't think it's a cognitive thing, it's more that we instinctively want it to be so. The unity of the good, the true, and the beautiful, that kind of thing.


Posted by: PerfectlyGoddamnDelightful | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 11:15 PM
horizontal rule
314

Beauty is a symbol of the good, you sublime terror of the Arctic.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 11:18 PM
horizontal rule
315

313: Ah, the Romantic thing. I've never really understood the Romantics at all.

312: I get aroused by other things. It's not just loveliness that turns everyone on.

Listen, I will happily sleep with good-looking people. I don't turn them down out of spite. And I am open-minded about their potential qualities! It's just not like a thing for me. I've had very good and very meh sex with extremely hot people, and I didn't find the latter was a source of cognitive dissonance for me, is all I'm saying.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 11:21 PM
horizontal rule
316

Ben, you're letting us down. This is a situation tailor-made for Plato quotes. The Phaedrus or some such. The soul needs lubrication for its wings!

And don't worry Armsmasher, we don't hate you because you're beautiful.


Posted by: PerfectlyGoddamnDelightful | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 11:26 PM
horizontal rule
317

I've never read the Phaedrus, and if you think I'm letting you down, it's obviously because you either don't recognize the Kant allusion or you have a mistaken opinion of its value.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 11:27 PM
horizontal rule
318

No need to get huffy, I have the greatest respect for your philosophical skillz. I've read the Critique of Judgement. Just saying that Plato is a better hand with the elaborate metaphors and elevated rhetoric.

OK, I'm off to get my beauty rest. Be well, all!


Posted by: PerfectlyGoddamnDelightful | Link to this comment | 11-25-07 11:31 PM
horizontal rule
319

Phaedrus 250d-e


Posted by: Merganser | Link to this comment | 11-26-07 10:33 AM
horizontal rule