Re: Back to business

1

No -- that is the kind of bad I feared. A terrible three-chord mess would be workable. "I'll Be There for You!" would not.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 3:10 PM
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Man, you people are mean. The problem is they're competent but no more, rather than painful to listen to? That puts it right into the category of 'finding nice things to say shouldn't be a problem' and 'shows shouldn't be painful'. Not that Ogged will ever actually date this woman, so it shouldn't be an issue.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 3:13 PM
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The blog is an experiment in how long our interest can be held by the possibility of Ogged getting laid, isnt it?

This situation is starting to feel like a season of Lost.


Posted by: Will | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 3:13 PM
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Surely one of their songs can be posted here?


Posted by: destroyer | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 3:13 PM
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What's the over/under on ogged getting laid before Unf's kid does?


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 3:13 PM
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Yeah, if the band were like, hey, we do a lot of Misfits covers, what's not to love? But they have the kind of vices you'd get in a wedding cover band, minus the necessity of playing cheesy music for pay.

The bass playing itself is pretty bland by my lights. Whoa, I had no idea that the pentatonic scale would make an appearance!


Posted by: FL | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 3:13 PM
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You stepped on Unf Jr.? Harsh.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 3:14 PM
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Not that Ogged will ever actually date this woman, so it shouldn't be an issue.

Totally on point.


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 3:14 PM
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I think she's been playing bass for about six months.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 3:14 PM
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I imagine that I'm watching some kind of commercial about how zesty, yet funky, your life would be if you (a) drank this sort of coffee or (b) purchased this stupid upscale furniture.

The Shins have a bass player?


Posted by: baa | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 3:16 PM
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Well then you should totally be all `wow, you haven't mastered that instrument in 6 months? you guys really suck'


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 3:16 PM
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How pretty is she?

What is the ratio of hotness to badness?


Posted by: Will | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 3:17 PM
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LB, you're totally missing the distinction between two kinds of badness-- if it were the "just rocking out for fun" kind of bad, that would be hot. Painful to listen to because they don't know how to play would be hot. But polished-n-musically-lame? Ick. Far harder to deal with, sez me. Which I first typed as "sex me."


Posted by: FL | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 3:17 PM
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will's got the idea. this sort of analysis cries out for dimensionless parameters.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 3:17 PM
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But polished-n-musically-lame?

She's the bass-player! She was just following orders!


Posted by: baa | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 3:19 PM
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FL we need some reference bands, here. Hootie? Bright Eyes? Franz Ferdinand? References!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 3:19 PM
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we need some reference bands

Second that.


Posted by: baa | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 3:20 PM
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I have no idea of what band you are refering to, but the really bad bands are the ones that indicate the members all spend lots of time listening to really shit music. or maybe hte ones that make you hate the good band that they're aping. not sure which is worse.


Posted by: yoyo | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 3:20 PM
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Also, Sifu, Ellsbury and Bucholtz for Santana? Where do you stand?


Posted by: baa | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 3:20 PM
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"You guys are tight. I'm impressed at how quickly you've picked up the bass."

It's really not that hard. After you establish a connection, you can move on to affectionate joshing about upscale furniture.

And come on, Labs, picking on guitarists for using the pentatonic scale is like picking on pianists for using the piano bench.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 3:21 PM
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Huh, that's exactly the sort of band I could see Ogged liking that's more recent than Journey. Quiet, vaguely jazzy, commercial-ready and probably mentioned on NPR as a "hot new local band, using synthesizers and samples to build a futuristic groove that's perfect for work or just lounging around the house." I'm imagining a slightly worse imitation of Thievery Corporation or Midwest Product.

Ogged, even if you dislike it, that is the music of your soul. Date the girl.


Posted by: Po-Mo Polymath | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 3:21 PM
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Don't settle for reference bands, people! Posting one of their songs is risk-free!


Posted by: destroyer | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 3:21 PM
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we need some reference bands
polished-n-musically-lame?

Kenny G.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 3:22 PM
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that's exactly the sort of band I could see Ogged liking

You've gone too far!


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 3:23 PM
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Posting one of their songs is risk-free

That's crazy talk.


Posted by: baa | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 3:23 PM
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19: no way! Keep the kids, spend the money if you have to. I don't think Theo'd go for it. He's to committed to bringing people up through the farm system, and Bucholz has too much upside.

Plus I just got my Bucholz t-shirt like two months ago, dammit.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 3:24 PM
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And come on, Labs, picking on guitarists for using the pentatonic scale is like picking on pianists for using the piano bench.

I think that was more a long-winded way of saying `plays predictibly' with a little dash of `see, i know what i'm talking about'.

predictable bass lines ruin music? discuss.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 3:24 PM
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That's crazy talk.

I'm assuming that a) they're not famous enough to have lyrics posted online, and b) ogged will never date her.


Posted by: destroyer | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 3:25 PM
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26: So speaks my heart also, Sifu. Especially as Bucholtz looks world-historically amaaazing. But my head says "as a rule pitching prospects never pan out." Troubling.


Posted by: baa | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 3:26 PM
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26: That's why I strut around NYC in my Ted Williams throwback jersey. You can't trade a dead frozen legend!


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 3:26 PM
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But polished-n-musically-lame? Ick.

You know, if you don't actually require good musical taste in a partner, which I don't think is a huge issue for Ogged, how bad is 'having fun with the playing and being in a band, kind of lame about picking songs'? I mean, I get scorning someone for lack of musicality -- I've been scorned like that -- but what makes being in a lame band worse than liking lame music?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 3:26 PM
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LB, you're totally missing the distinction between two kinds of badness-- if it were the "just rocking out for fun" kind of bad, that would be hot. Painful to listen to because they don't know how to play would be hot. But polished-n-musically-lame? Ick. Far harder to deal with, sez me.

Oof, quite.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 3:27 PM
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Ellsbury and Bucholtz for Santana

Please God tell me they're not seriously considering this.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 3:27 PM
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31: The increased likelihood that the person is really wrapped up in and identifies with the really lame music.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 3:28 PM
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35

Does it sound anything like this?


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 3:30 PM
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Perhaps Ogged could start playing an instrument (I'm seeing tamborine), insinuate himself into the band, and lead it in a more acceptable musical direction. Before, of course, considering whether he might be interested in accepting the lifeguard's hypothetical advances.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 3:30 PM
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A guy I know who's kinda into me invited me to come see his band last week, and at first, I thought, "Oh wow! He's in a band! Maybe he's a lot more interesting than I originally assumed!" He said it was sort of experimental, which, for me, is a very good thing. But I went and listened to the samples on myspace, and it's exactly this kind of bad: competent but horribly boring and not experimental at all.

I have decided that, loathe as we both will be to admit it, ogged is Bizarro Me.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 3:30 PM
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You've gone too far!

Whatever, B will insist you listen to that new album from this band she heard of on NPR and you'll be hooked. Next thing you know, BAM!, a whole bookshelf full of downtempo mixes with stylized drawings of space-age bachelor pads on the front.


Posted by: Po-Mo Polymath | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 3:30 PM
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Okay, so here's the solution: find out, as quickly as possible, what music she listens to. If that's good, no problem, she just ended up in a shitty band. If her taste in music is as terrible as her terrible band, could be a problem.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 3:30 PM
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34: But this is testable, and really not something you can infer from limited knowledge in the thread.

All this what-iffery is just another example of ogged outsourcing his auto-cockblock routine.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 3:30 PM
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Once again, I'm mystified that some people don't see the potential problem here. You go to the band's show, you listen, it's lame, then, after the show, you either have to lie, or try to pull off a charming "you suck!" or say nothing, which any idiot would realize means you didn't like it.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 3:31 PM
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I wouldn't feel weird about dating someone who liked music I considered crummy. I would, however, feel squeamish about dating someone who was really seriously into, say, light jazz or tedious jam bands, and organized their life in a significant way around that music.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 3:31 PM
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Plus at least you'll finally be getting some, to slow sensual grooves no less.


Posted by: Po-Mo Polymath | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 3:31 PM
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Instead of replying to this thread I will sit in the dark sobbing. You are all dead to me.


Posted by: FL | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 3:31 PM
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33: the idea would be that Satana is signed long-term as a condition of the deal. But of course, the real answer is no one knows what Theo is thinking.


Posted by: baa | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 3:32 PM
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44: quit your whinging FL, you've actually heard it.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 3:32 PM
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You go to the band's show, you listen, it's lame, then, after the show, you either have to lie, or try to pull off a charming "you suck!" or say nothing, which any idiot would realize means you didn't like it.

What's wrong with 'not my genre, I listen only to acid jazz assembled from sampling the cries of South American howler monkeys, but you guys are tight'? If they're competent, you can say comptent, and if the genre isn't your thing, that shouldn't be hurtful.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 3:34 PM
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41: bah. I have empirical proof you can date someone in a band whose music you don't like much and it doesn't have to get in the way (ok,ok they were really really cute). It might be a problem if she's investied in your liking it, but you don't know that.

Ask her out. It's just a date, ogged.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 3:35 PM
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49

39 is wise. And as for 41, we're all mystified that you're not capable of a compliment-dodge.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 3:35 PM
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Is "good enough to suck" the phrase you're looking for here?

If she becomes your girlfriend, Ogged, you have to go to every in-town show. That's just how dating a band member usually works. If you're serious about this, the best course of action would be to make friends with lots of club owners and prevent them from ever getting gigs.


Posted by: Cain | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 3:35 PM
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I think the trick is to convince her that you have unfortunate taste in music first so that she won't be surprised when you are underwhelmed by her band's show.

Just casually that you only listen to Bob Dylan and roots Blues, and let her work out the rest. If you only had a turntable you could be the Steve Buscemi character from Ghost World


Posted by: NickS | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 3:37 PM
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I think there's a special kind of bad when you're dating someone who does creative work but is not particularly interesting in their creative work. Like, if I was dating a lawyer, I wouldn't really care if he wasn't a brilliant legal thinker. I'd just think he goes to work and does his job. But when you date a bad musician, you end up getting roped into bringing friends to their shows, giving his CDs to friends and family as gifts, pretending to take his songwriting seriously when you actually find it horribly trite, and sitting through interminable self-centered speeches about what he feels about being an "artist" and his "image" and all that, while it is assumed you can't have any idea the rages and depths he experiences, since you're someone who is square enough to have a, like, job.

But I'm not bitter. No, not at all.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 3:38 PM
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Let me go on the record as saying that compatibility in musical taste is way overrated. Now recognizing that I've gotten myself in domestic trouble by making this kind of comment before, I would point out that the area of intersection on the Venn diagram of my musical taste and Fleur's is pretty small. If I were uncharitable, I would call some of her music lame, and she would probably call much of mine unlistenable.

But guess what? The significance of music in your life drops off pretty dramatically somewhere between the ages of 30 and 40 for a lot of people. Certainly its importance as differentiating factor in self-identification declines. And finding mutually satisfying music becomes a kind of joint undertaking, fun in its own right.


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 3:38 PM
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36: Yes, LB! Ogged could be the Girlfriend! The Linda McCartney of his special lady's Wings!


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 3:38 PM
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Obviously my expert judgment as to the quality of the music is needed. Labs, you have my email.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 3:38 PM
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41 -- Oh, come on. There are multiple worlds of things to say other than 'your band sucks' or 'your band is great.' These things aren't challenges, they're opportunities.


Posted by: Nápi | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 3:39 PM
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50 speaks teh true.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 3:39 PM
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Let me go on the record as saying that compatibility in musical taste is way overrated.

The Fallacy of Shared Aesthetic Interests, as Matt Weiner (pbuh)'s friend Allan termed it.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 3:40 PM
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sitting through interminable self-centered speeches about what he feels about being an "artist" and his "image" and all that

You know what this is really horrible in combination with? Being a street performer, that's what.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 3:41 PM
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I assume it is too late to feign deafness.

49 has it right though. It's just a date. Besides, this is nothing compared to the "finding out about the blog" problem if it does get serious. For instance will you delete these two posts and threads in that case? The surfer chick one?


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 3:41 PM
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Is "good enough to suck" the phrase you're looking for here?

Old enough to lose.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 3:41 PM
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The Linda McCartney of his special lady's Wings!

Might be better for all involved if he turned out to be the Yoko Ono.


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 3:41 PM
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From what I've gathered, w-lfs-n, it's not good enough for you to hate. It may not actually be good enough for you to hear.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 3:42 PM
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At a certain point, the aesthetic overlaps with the moral. I could not date a Parrot Head. *shudder*


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 3:42 PM
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The significance of music in your life drops off pretty dramatically somewhere between the ages of 30 and 40 for a lot of people.

But never just assume that you and the object of your affection are among those people.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 3:42 PM
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There's a difference between not really sharing favorite CDs and dating someone in a band you can't respect. Huge difference. If I'm dating someone who really likes (eg) Bob Dylan, I am not responsible for listening to every single Dylan song and giving my intimate and personal, possibly hurtful analysis of those songs and also supporting worldwide fervor for Bob Dylan with all my spare time. I don't have to go to Dylan shows and say at the door "I'm here to see Bob Dylan!" so they can put a tally under his name.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 3:43 PM
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Once again, I'm mystified that some people don't see the potential problem here. You go to the band's show, you listen, it's lame, then, after the show, you either have to lie, or try to pull off a charming "you suck!" or say nothing, which any idiot would realize means you didn't like it.

But look, how often does this happen? Once? I am in total agreement with LB's 47 on this (which probably shows it is either a really good or really bad idea). There are oodles of ways to politely avoid the "I can't believe you don't like Whitesnake" rock on which so many teen relationships founder.

Just don't go to all the shows. Or go every so often and consider it a wasted evening. This is not a huge cost to bear.


Posted by: baa | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 3:43 PM
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52 sounds hellish, yes.

I had the outside experience of that once, a girl I knew had a boyfriend who played the tortured writer all the time. She ended up supporting him for a year or so he could work on his breakthrough novel. She showed me a draft that he had sent off to publishers, they were both so excited about it --- and it was transparently bad. I really didn't know what to say.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 3:44 PM
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63: I've made my bed here as the Bad Music Apologist, so it won't come as a surprise if I admit to having done dishes quite merrily to Jimmy Buffett's Greatest Hits in college.

Merrily and regularly.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 3:44 PM
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If she becomes your girlfriend, Ogged, you have to go to every in-town show

Really? Surely not. Surely not.


Posted by: baa | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 3:45 PM
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baa and LB vs. ogged and AWB. What the hell is going on here?


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 3:45 PM
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I am just amazed at the lengths someone will go not to date somebody.

I need to reference material.

Where is profgrl (sp?)? Was Ogged confined to his bed when he dated his previous gfs?


Posted by: Will | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 3:45 PM
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60: maybe he's just seeding the blog for later dramtic breakup/reconcilliation posts.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 3:46 PM
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a girl I knew had a boyfriend who played the tortured writer all the time.

Wow, the "tortured writer" is an instrument??


Posted by: Scizor Cyster | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 3:47 PM
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74: Yeah. Real pain to tune, that one. Easier to transport than a piano, though.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 3:48 PM
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The lesson of AWB's comments in this thread seems to be "don't date musicians" rather than "don't date crappy musicians."


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 3:48 PM
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I am in total agreement with LB's 47 on this

And let me tell you that these monkeys are really painful.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 3:48 PM
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76: Or, combined with earlier threads --- only date the crazy ones.

this in no way contradicts my earlier comments about the efficacy of being one, or a reasonable hand-drawn facsimile.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 3:49 PM
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Actually, I realize we have incomplete information. How serious is she about the band? Is it a defining aspect of her life and self-conception?


Posted by: baa | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 3:51 PM
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Okay, so from the post I'm basically imagining that this woman is Ben Harper's bassist. Am I way off?


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 3:52 PM
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But I should stay out of these particular conversations. I have absolutely no understanding of what music means to you people.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 3:52 PM
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Is it a defining aspect of her life and self-conception

Exactly. If not, don't be an idiot. You can find a better reason not to date her.


Posted by: TJ | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 3:53 PM
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I definitely agree that people invest way too much in common aesthetic interests, since the music I listen to really doesn't "say" anything important about me except that I sort of like loud obnoxious weird stuff. It's not a window into my soul to know what bands I like.

But that's exactly why dating people who are in bands is almost always a terrible idea, unless you really do like the band a lot, or at least respect them a great deal. Dating someone who appreciates what they're doing as a musician, and as a potentially image-conveying entity, is really important for band people, as, I guess, it has to be.

It's not just a matter of hurting feelings or being forced to smile and nod; it's a matter of spending a lot of time with people who think they're "expressing" "themselves," which is never ever good, even in a casual dating situation.

Although! It is possible that this woman won't care if you ever see her band. That's the way to go. You could claim to be deaf! (I have sometimes claimed to CD-flogging people that I am emotionally stunted and can't be asked to like anyone's favorite music.)


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 3:53 PM
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Is it a defining aspect of her life and self-conception?

She guards to pay the bills and is a music student/in a band the rest of the time.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 3:53 PM
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I have absolutely no understanding of what music means to you people.

Me either. Solidarity.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 3:54 PM
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You could claim to be deaf! (I have sometimes claimed to CD-flogging people that I am emotionally stunted and can't be asked to like anyone's favorite music.)

So you're saying teo has been lying when he says that to us?


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 3:55 PM
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She guards to pay the bills and is a music student/in a band the rest of the time.

But she has only played the bass for six months? Are her real musical interests radically different?


Posted by: destroyer | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 3:55 PM
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I'd say we should date, but given the married, fifteen year age difference, and so on, probably not a good idea.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 3:55 PM
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88: agreed; a tawdry fling is more fitting, really.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 3:57 PM
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You know, I usually don't mind when people generalize from their own experience, but something about

it's a matter of spending a lot of time with people who think they're "expressing" "themselves,"

really cheeses my oooh.

You express rather a lot of yourself here, AWB, and though it's not generically "artistic", I don't think you'd take kindly to people saying you were a bore because you put thought and personal expression into your work.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 3:58 PM
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...the music I listen to really doesn't "say" anything important about me except that I sort of like loud obnoxious weird stuff. It's not a window into my soul to know what bands I like.

...

Yeah. Keep telling yourself that.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 3:58 PM
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So you're saying teo has been lying when he says that to us?

No, she's just appropriating my shtick.

I'd say we should date, but given the married, fifteen year age difference, and so on, probably not a good idea.

Yeah, bummer. Got any much younger cousins?


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 3:58 PM
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A fifteen-year age difference is too young to have sex, so its marriage couldn't possibly have been legally consummated.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 3:58 PM
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She guards to pay the bills and is a music student/in a band the rest of the time.

Okay, I'm changing my position, that does sound like trouble.

That sounds like it could fall into the, "don't date people that frequently inpire you to be patronizing or condescending."


Posted by: NickS | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 3:59 PM
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To make a truly informed decision I really do need to know if this is like Mindy Smith or the Shins or what.


Posted by: slolernr | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 3:59 PM
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a tawdry fling is more fitting, really

Unfortunately I think Buck is also coming to UnfoggeDCon.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 3:59 PM
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it's a matter of spending a lot of time with people who think they're "expressing" "themselves," which is never ever good,

This is a pretty gross generalization --- I suspect from unfortunate personal experience, but that's what it is. I've known tons of musicians, and very few of them look anything like this, even if you squint hard.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 4:00 PM
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I agree with 90. Putting "express themselves" in scarequotes is the same thing as responding to any attempt at artistry in a movie with the word "pretentious". Let's give each other the benefit of the doubt.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 4:00 PM
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92: I have an excruciatingly hot niece, but she's a highschool senior, so a little young even for you. And not actually related to me in any genetic sense. And very into music.

So, no.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 4:01 PM
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She guards to pay the bills and is a music student/in a band the rest of the time.

But what does she study? She could just be playing in that band for experience, to get known, land other gigs, etc. You haven't answered the question as to this particular band's place in her life.

Maybe she's really interested in being a Bill Laswell or Hugh Hopper type, except fit and age-appropriate.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 4:01 PM
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96: Threesome, then. Maybe more.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 4:03 PM
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99: I'm very into music…


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 4:03 PM
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She guards to pay the bills and is a music student/in a band the rest of the time.

Now I see the difficulty. Nonetheless, the problem isn't that you'll need to go to the shows. The problem is that she's focused her life on something you can't respect. Right?


Posted by: baa | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 4:04 PM
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LB, you had him at `excruciatingly hot'.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 4:04 PM
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She might get better, you know.


Posted by: slolernr | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 4:04 PM
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Multiple people have mentioned the Shins, perhaps derogatorily. However, I should point out that at least one person associated with them romantically seems pretty awesome.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 4:05 PM
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Does her band wear cultlike uniforms that look ironic but actually aren't?


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 4:05 PM
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I have an excruciatingly hot niece, but she's a highschool senior, so a little young even for you.

I thought you didn't believe in the 1/2 + 7 Rule.

And not actually related to me in any genetic sense. And very into music.

Okay, these sound more problematic. Plus she probably lives far away.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 4:05 PM
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mentioned the Shins, perhaps derogatorily

I like them. But then, I like upscale furniture too.


Posted by: baa | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 4:06 PM
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I don't dislike the Shins. But I'm well aware that by you people, I have no taste in music.


Posted by: slolernr | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 4:06 PM
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I thought you didn't believe in the 1/2 + 7 Rule.

23/2=11.5. Plus 7 is 18.5. Sounds doable to me. And I do mean doable.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 4:06 PM
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"Can't respect" is a bit strong. I mean, a lot of poets are skilled and even "good" but not to one's taste, right? It would be hard to date one not to your taste.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 4:07 PM
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112: Or you could just ignore their poetry. The critical aspect is whether you respect them or not.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 4:08 PM
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106: Represent!


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 4:08 PM
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108.2 see, you're learning from ogged. Pretty soon your pre-emptive auto-cockblock will be entirely responsive, you won't have to think about it at all.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 4:08 PM
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111: I'm well aware of the calculation. Remember that 18-year-old I was sort of dating?


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 4:09 PM
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People! Teo isn't the only one with a presumptive interest in excruciatingly hot nieces who are into music.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 4:10 PM
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Pretty soon your pre-emptive auto-cockblock will be entirely responsive, you won't have to think about it at all.

None of those things except the distance would be a dealbreaker for me in real life.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 4:10 PM
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I think the thread about people being interested in their nieces is the one with the picture of the baby.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 4:10 PM
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I definitely agree that people invest way too much in common aesthetic interests, since the music I listen to really doesn't "say" anything important about me except that I sort of like loud obnoxious weird stuff.

There's a difference between recognizing that your SO's CD collection has a higher Mariah-Carey-to-good-music ratio than decent people allow, and hearing her justify her dubious tastes with an ill-reasoned explanation ending in: "Mariah Carey saved my life." (True story. If this person sounds to you like a self-described poet, award yourself one point.) The former is potentially forgivable, if only in the short term. The latter is relationship death.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 4:11 PM
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The problem with the Shins and indie-yuppie music in general isn't that it's bad. Much of it is tender, affecting, made in good faith and good-sounding.

The problem is that it occupies the wrong cultural position. There's nothing alternative about it. It belongs in the mainstream, and for most purposes is, except for the confluence of two disappointing factors:

a) there is a bigger mainstream that is much bigger, and
b) this allows the people in the smaller mainstream to construct rebellion or at least "alternative" into their identity in ways that make offensively little sense.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 4:12 PM
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121: a) should read "much bigger and stupider"


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 4:12 PM
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It would be hard to date one not to your taste.

I'm not so sure. What if she were programming director for some cable channel you could never imagine watching? Big who cares, I suspect.


Posted by: baa | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 4:13 PM
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So is this band good enough to actually sell some songs to ad agencies and make piles of money? Because it seems like that would change the calculus here.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 4:13 PM
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124 is the only pertinent comment yet.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 4:14 PM
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I have an awful feeling that it's going to turn out that this band is actually really famous and critically acclaimed and ogged is just oblivious to modern music.

On the other hand, I can't think of any trendy bands from the SFBay area right now.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 4:15 PM
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Okay, this thread answered my question from the other thread. This is not a hobby like bowling to her. This is important. If you can't respect her music at all, then you are probably not going to want to date this woman.

Any word from the surfer woman?


Posted by: winna | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 4:15 PM
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121: Does anyone actually point to liking the Shins as emblematic of their own rebellious alternative identity? I suppose that would be annoying, but I've never encountered it.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 4:15 PM
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construct rebellion or at least "alternative" into their identity in ways that make offensively little sense

But the problem is constructing rebellion into your identity period. Blame the ends, not the means.


Posted by: baa | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 4:15 PM
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some cable channel you could never imagine watching?

It's one thing if she programs the 24-Hour Tractor Pull and Bass-Fishing channel. It's another if she personally produces and hosts 52 Ways to Skin a Mule Deer.


Posted by: slolernr | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 4:16 PM
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What if she were programming director for some cable channel

Not analogous. It's the self-expression thing.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 4:17 PM
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It's another if she personally produces and hosts 52 Ways to Skin a Mule Deer.

Yeah, that would be super-hott.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 4:17 PM
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What do you think should fit the "actually rebellious/alternative" niche in the musical world, Wrongshore?

And is this any different from how it's always been?


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 4:17 PM
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baa is correct in 129.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 4:17 PM
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128: "Rebellion" may be overstating it. "Alternative" is more to the point: the kind of sensitive estrangement that it signifies in Natalie Portman's headphones.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 4:18 PM
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"Alternative" is more to the point: the kind of sensitive estrangement that it signifies in Natalie Portman's headphones.

Meh, that sort of thing seems pretty harmless. I guess it would be irritating if someone talked like that all the time.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 4:19 PM
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135: Well, it is estrangement, from the extreme stupidity and juvenility of the actual mainstream.

Just like the prestige pictures of the 1940s and 1950s are now the movies that every studio makes two of, purely to get awards, spending $20 million to make it and hoping to get $20 million worth of box office.

Lowest-common denominator capitalism results from the ludicrously short-term-oriented nature of the capitalism we are now experiencing in a society where even if the corporations fail they don't really risk anything.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 4:20 PM
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It's another if she personally produces and hosts 52 Ways to Skin a Mule Deer.

I am unsure about that. It's all a question of how much personal identity is wrapped up in the job. It would be weird to date someone who had a calling one considered crazy. Not so weird to date someone who has a job in an industry you would just as soon not exist.


Posted by: baa | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 4:20 PM
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I have no memory of that scene. And I even saw the movie.


Posted by: slolernr | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 4:20 PM
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I throw in with the LB-baa block. (From which baa has apparently withdrawn.) ogged's musical taste is, IIRC, of sketchy provenance itself, so it's not like he's prostituting anything valuable if he pretends to like music he finds appalling.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 4:21 PM
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Not so weird to date someone who has a job in an industry you would just as soon not exist

This sounds like the voice of experience. People have dated you, haven't they, baa?


Posted by: slolernr | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 4:22 PM
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Ogged, you big puss, the woman has a hobby/interest she's passionate about. Isn't that like your #1 criteron? Plus, you know, maybe you won't end up her boyfriend, Mr. Bridge Crosser.

Go out with her, see what she's like (as opposed to what her band is like). Proceed accordingly.

If you do end up going to shows and they suck, just do what LB said--tell her the band seems tight but it's not really your kind of music.

Anyway, you like Journey.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 4:22 PM
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I have no memory of that scene. And I even saw the movie.

Perfectly descriptive of most holywood output, really.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 4:22 PM
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I have no memory of that scene.

Really? To me it's one of the most memorable in the whole movie, so much so that I haven't even clicked the link in 135 but still know what the scene is.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 4:23 PM
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133: My first thought is The Clash in 1980, but since I can't instinctively answer the question without recourse to an idealized earlier moment, I'm going to rethink the question.

Part of it is the social/emotional question. A lot of music speaks to people in ways that make them feel like they've never been so well known by art (at the same time that it creates the terms in which they feel). There's a danger of both understating and overstating this, and it's probably best left to de gustibus for the most part.

Beyond that is music that connects socially -- not just in letting like minds find one another, but in opening up the world. The Only Band That Matters and Public Enemy come to mind from my own life, but I want this to be about something more than who's got political content.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 4:23 PM
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Not so weird to date someone who has a job in an industry you would just as soon not exist

If it was weird to date lawyers, the people at this blog would be even unhappier than they already are.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 4:23 PM
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120: That is fantastic. Please tell us more about the girl whom Mariah saved.

In an act that I now, nearly 20 years later, consider quite touching, a very punk rock boy (a gorgeous Iranian, no less!) pledged his love to me via Cat Stevens song. Young oudemia was unmoved.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 4:23 PM
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Geez, people on the side of light and reason here have been dropping off like flies. Date the girl and see how big a problem it is, in the context of the broader trade-offs required in any human relationship. There's nothing about this that ought to be a dealbreaker ab initio.


Posted by: Nápi | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 4:23 PM
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147: Whatever one can say about Cat Stevens or whatever he's called now, I think it's pretty uncontroversial to say he isn't punk rock. not even a bit.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 4:25 PM
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There's nothing about this that ought to be a dealbreaker ab initio.

You must be new here.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 4:26 PM
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people on the side of light and reason here have been dropping off like flies

Too much comity would kill the blog. Better watch it Napi; one more sane remark outta you and it's off to the Washington Monthly comments for you.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 4:26 PM
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Liking Journey might be a deal breaker for her; you might want to keep that quiet.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 4:27 PM
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It's all a question of how much personal identity is wrapped up in the job.

Right. This is similar to the problem of ogged playing the "self-expression" card. What that actually means in the context of her life can only be known by dating her, etc. Maybe she's shallow. One can hope.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 4:27 PM
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149: Yes. That was the problem. And also what makes it kind of a touching move (now) for that particular jackbooted teen.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 4:28 PM
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It's the self-expression thing.

This was before my 138, and I think answers it. If 80% of her self-expression is in some venue you think is irrelevant or actively negative, you are unlikely to be the right guy for her. Unless she's a sociopath, in which case it's all good. That said, most of us don't have that much self-expression in us, and overrate the relevance of that we do have. She may end up quiting the band in two years. I'd recommend a first date.


Posted by: baa | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 4:29 PM
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133: And is this any different from how it's always been?

The difference I see now is that the discourse around commercial use has mostly surrendered to the question of "who are you to tell artists that they can't make a buck?" There was never an Edenic time of not using popular music to move widgets; there was, however, a time not so long ago when artists wondered more what it meant to tie one's art to consumer goods.

I think it would be good for the culture if art was presumed to stand in opposition to consumer culture. Art gets deep inside you, and it would be good if it didn't always bring Frosted Flakes with it.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 4:31 PM
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* * * further discussion is unnecessary * * *


Posted by: Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 4:31 PM
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For what it's worth, I think using the adjective "tight" to describe her band would make you sound reaching and lame. But that's just me, hep cats!


Posted by: baa | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 4:31 PM
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Hmm, I go away on an airplane for a while and all this stuff happens.

But Will early on seems right about the Lost-like quality of recent thread.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 4:32 PM
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I'd recommend a first date.

Or, barring that, at least sleep with her. For the good of the blog, if nothing else.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 4:33 PM
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You must be new here.

No, but just one more time looking at the screen in mute disbelief, thinking 'Jesus, do I have to go date these girls myself?' The number and variety excuses you people men can conjure up to avoid asking a woman out (and/or taking it to another level) are truly impressive.


Posted by: Nápi | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 4:35 PM
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Come to think of it, I started dating a guy in ROTC, whose goal in life was to be a military officer. *And* he was anti-abortion.

I married him, you know.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 4:35 PM
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161, I think we're all aware of the similarities between ogged's and Jerry Seinfeld's personae.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 4:36 PM
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162: But that's less out of character for the woman behind the B persona, right? (I thought you'd said as much.)


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 4:37 PM
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LB's Ross Perot and Wayne's World references totally triggered an early 90s reminiscence. Those were good times. Ain't nobody going to bow down/when you sound your gong.


Posted by: baa | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 4:37 PM
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162: Right, best not to risk it.

163: I think it was more an issue of realizing ogged has acoylotes in auto-cockblockery.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 4:38 PM
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come to think of it, B, how would you (a younger version of you) feel about someone who was in the same position today: i.e. ROTC guy whose goal in life was to be an officer in todays forces?


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 4:40 PM
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164: No, I was pretty wary about both of those facts. But he was so charming.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 4:40 PM
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165: We're not worthy! We're not worthy!


Posted by: Ogged's Acoylotes in Auto-Cockblockery | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 4:40 PM
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Marginally related: Is it possible to break up with someone via blog?

(Answer: Yes!)


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 4:40 PM
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170: I really can't see how that is worse than SMS.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 4:41 PM
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167: I'd think he was insane, but hey, I thought Mr. B. was insane back then, too. OTOH, I had to admire the fact that he was quite principled and idealistic about the whole thing.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 4:41 PM
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165: You're voting for Hillary, aren't you?


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 4:41 PM
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I've made my bed here as the Bad Music Apologist, so it won't come as a surprise if I admit to having done dishes quite merrily to Jimmy Buffett's Greatest Hits in college.

Merrily and regularly.

A constipated dishwasher is a grumpy dishwasher.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 4:45 PM
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170: The linked story is kinda cute. It's about a guy who meets a woman at a club, lies and says that he has everything in common with her (went to the same college, likes the same drink), and takes her home. After sex, he admits that he lied. She does too. They remain together.

I've tried a version of this when I was too tired to think of an answer for 20 Questions and just said yes to everything in order to see how long it took the yeses to lead somewhere. But they never led to sex.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 4:46 PM
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I really can't see how that is worse than SMS.

I didn't say it was.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 4:47 PM
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They remain together.

Until he e-mails Gawker the story and implies that the sex wasn't great, whereupon she dumps him hard.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 4:51 PM
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Also note that this all started with our good friend Julia Allison trolling Craigslist for material for her dating column.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 4:53 PM
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I married him, you know.Come to think of it, I started dating a guy in ROTC, whose goal in life was to be a military officer. *And* he was anti-abortion.

I married him, you know.

Most people are less aleatoric than you are, B, no matter how hard we try.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 5:00 PM
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Reader, I married him, you know.


Posted by: bitchgoverness | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 5:04 PM
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* * * further discussion is unnecessary * * *

New mouseover text.


Posted by: Not Prince Hamlet | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 5:06 PM
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If people are less aleatoric than I am, then they must be very tightly wound indeed.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 5:07 PM
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To veer wildly away from ogged's sex life, or whatever---who else is excited to see the Republican YouTube debate tonight?

(Oh please, let the internet cable thingie give me CNN when I plug it into the TV!)


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 5:28 PM
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178: Julia Allison is our friend? I had the distinct impression that Miss Sharp's Allison's friendship was freely available to all who might aid her advance, but the Mineshaft can do very little in that respect, being dedicated to the advancementblocking as we tend to be.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 5:33 PM
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183: Are you certain ogged's sex life is nothing like a republican dog and pony showdebate ?


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 5:34 PM
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Julia Allison is our friend?

In the same way that anyone is our friend (i.e., ironically), yes.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 5:34 PM
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At least the Republican candidates show up at the non-event!


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 5:35 PM
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Despite what I wrote above while grumpy after teaching, I have happily dated musicians who didn't always play in groups that I was crazy about. However, as several have noted here and in the other thread, there are lots of musicians who think of themselves primarily as people who play their instrument(s) and enjoy it and aren't deeply married to what they're playing. This can be especially true of good bass players, drummers, and musicians in classical ensembles.

One of my college boyfriends played the contrabassoon. It's not like there are a ton of pieces for contrabassoon, so he was just happy to get to play, no matter what it was. This is reasonable.

My bitterness above was mostly related to a seven-year on-and-off relationship with a mediocre singer-songwriter. They're worse than poets.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 6:09 PM
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Please tell us more about the girl whom Mariah saved.

I have, a bit. I now recall that she used a similar argument, intensely personal and uninformed by anything resembling logic, in an attempt to convince me that The Abyss was a great movie.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 6:10 PM
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Aren't singer-songwriters basically just poets who think they can play the guitar?


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 6:11 PM
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One of my college boyfriends played the contrabassoon

I suspect that the set of people who can claim this is extremely small.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 6:13 PM
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Yeah, I even thought about Googleproofing that. There's like five of them.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 6:14 PM
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Aren't singer-songwriters basically just poets who think they can play the guitar?

My roommate believes this applies to all music with lyrics, and so only listens to classical.


Posted by: destroyer | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 6:25 PM
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189: Wow. You are well out of it, I think. She seems like a less innocuous Madeline Basset.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 6:28 PM
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Not all music with lyrics has words. Your rommate needs to hear this song, and then move on to some Magma.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 6:29 PM
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Googling "contra-bassoon player" brings up an unnamed black woman, a little short unnamed woman who was probably white, and several suspects. The Las Vegas Lions Club sponsored a contrabasson fest one time.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 6:35 PM
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The following year, Mr. Trinko decided the festival should involve a competition, with the competitors performing a piece commissioned especially for this festival. That work was "In a Deep Funk", by Daniel Dorff. There were only a handful of competitors (the piece being rather difficult for amateurs), and I couldn't tell you who won. Anyway, the piece is quickly becoming a fixture in the solo contrabassoon repertoire (yeah, ok - how many works for solo contrabassoon are there anyway?)

There is not much need to go into a deep description of the work; it's a set of movements based on popular dances of the 60s and 70s. The titles of the movements speak for themselves: Hustle Misterioso, Twist Variations, and Funk Scherzo (a fourth movement, Bear Hug, will be performed some other time). It's a toe-tapper, cheerful, and due to the nature of the contrabassoon, a little gruesome.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 6:36 PM
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Finally, the time has come for me to change pseuds. Thanks John.


Posted by: Hustle Misterioso | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 6:37 PM
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There seem to be enough contrabassoon players in the world for AWB's paramour to be safe.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 6:39 PM
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ogged, what the hell. Are you in eighth grade? Fine, you go to her band's gig and you don't think it's awesome. If you find her cute, you'll think it's charming; if not, you'll be put off. Either way, what the fuck is up with the pre-emptive cockblock?

Also, apo's wife likes Enya, right? It works. This is like my sister deciding she won't date Guy X because he likes the Steelers a lot and what if 20 years from now he doesn't remember to pick up the kids because he's watching the game and they never get to go wine tastings?

Christ.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 6:48 PM
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Jesus, Cala, that's Apo. And who in the world would date a Steelers fan?


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 6:50 PM
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This is like my sister deciding she won't date Guy X because he likes the Steelers a lot and what if 20 years from now he doesn't remember to pick up the kids because he's watching the game and they never get to go wine tastings?

You've mentioned this before; does it happen a lot, or was there one particularly memorable instance?


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 6:51 PM
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Are you in eighth grade?

What if I am?

This isn't even roughly analogous to or about not sharing musical taste with someone.

Finally, the pre-emptive cockblock is a very important maneuver and more people should employ it. It would save y'all a lot of grief, although there would be fewer nightmare relationship stories.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 6:52 PM
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Cala, there's a real danger that he'll go on a date and be happy and then the blog will suck even more. Come on, lend a hand.


Posted by: FL | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 6:52 PM
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although there would be fewer nightmare relationshiphott stories.


Posted by: TJ | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 6:54 PM
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Cala, my vehemence on the other side of this argument is that, once you decide to throw yourself into something and, like, go to see someone's band that you're not crazy about, but you decide that someone is cute enough to ignore their bad band, you've already started the Stendhalian crystallization process by which you initially tolerate things that will really fucking grate on you in a few months, when it will be all "Oh my God, you don't actually like my band, ogged? Why didn't you just fucking tell me? So you could get in my pants?"

This anxiety, though not totally unfounded in experience, is admittedly insane. OTOH, this is exactly the kind of anxiety that leads to irreparable self-cockblockage.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 6:54 PM
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202: My sister tends to project the next twenty years from the fact the guy has a crush. The Steelers thing was particularly memorable, but it happens with every single guy. She finds a lot of reasons why not to go out for coffee. This involves a lot of phone calls to me and me dancing around singing how coffee is not marriage vooowwwwws.. (She's better about it these days.)

ogged, who says you won't go on a date and she'll confess that while she really likes playing with them, she's hoping they can break out of their elevator music rut?


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 6:56 PM
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Would she have told me about the myspace page if she didn't like it? Wouldn't she at least have said something band-deprecating? I think so!


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 6:59 PM
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206: I just think it's too early for the cockblock. If he'd been out with her a few times, or been dragged to all her band things, fine. But this is before there's even a date. How fragile is she that her world would be shattered if he has sex with her and he isn't in love with her band? It's like we're in automatic relationship land here.

Also, my better half is in the other room watching the fucking Pretender. Bad Gap music doesn't come close.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 7:01 PM
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Cala, could I have your sister's phone number? It sound like she's ripe for my message. Probably just a few words from me and she'll never go on a date again.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 7:01 PM
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208: yeah, because it's endearing to come across all self-deprecating to someone you haven't even had a date with.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 7:02 PM
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208: She's also been playing the bass six months. You could get in Before She Was Famous.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 7:02 PM
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209: I used to really like The Pretender. Miss Parker had a special place in my heart.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 7:04 PM
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I think ogged is right to self-cockblock on this one--- unless he could have a cheerfully uncomplicated one-night stand with her, and really, how likely is that?


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 7:04 PM
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Finally, the pre-emptive cockblock is a very important maneuver and more people should employ it
More effective than midieval chastity belts


Posted by: Scizor Cyster | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 7:08 PM
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Finally, the pre-emptive cockblock is a very important maneuver and more people should employ it.

More Shi'a trickeration. This isn't pre-emptive cockblocking. It's unsanctioned preventative cockblocking that assumes she would sleep with you based on little more than airy-fairy stories from some guy at the a pool. I say wait for Hans Blix's report.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 7:11 PM
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216 gets it right. If I might coin a metaphor, cockblocking is like kickblocking in soccer or other varieties of football. In order to say you blocked a kick, there must be some sort of goal for the kick to be heading towards. If there's no evidence that the kick had any chance to reach its destination and you block it anyway, you just bounced the ball off your face for no reason and your blocking efforts had no effect on the outcome.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 7:15 PM
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Isn't the pool the key issue? If it's going to confound your swimming schedule for this thing to go sour, forget it. If it's merely dropping your standards and sacrificing your self-respect, big deal.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 7:16 PM
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If he can't show his face at the pool again, he can always take up surfing and pursue the more weathered lady.


Posted by: Hustle Misterioso | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 7:17 PM
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Yeah, but not being able to show up at the ocean again would suck even more.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 7:19 PM
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Ogged is a man who, as of yesterday, was so unwilling to let a good intuition about a lady go that he went to near-unprecedented lengths not to let the opportunity pass. I am willing to enter this into evidence that O, picky and weird as he may be, is the sort of guy who doesn't let really exciting special people go past without a hearty effort, lest regret eat away at him. If a minor flirtation turns out to have a strike, let it sail past. If it continues to eat away, he can always buck up and go see this terrible band at a future date, and eat lots of tasty crow when she finds this post and breaks off their engagement.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 7:24 PM
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Finally, the pre-emptive cockblock is a very important maneuver and more people should employ it. It would save y'all a lot of grief, although there would be fewer nightmare relationship stories.

Scorecard says: at least one bad relationship prevented (pert-breasted but excessively needy; 22-yo self concluded that removal of bra from under sweatshirt and auto-massage couldn't possibly be a come-on because she had a boyfriend (two states away)). Many good things also prevented, now bitterly regretted. Conclusion: improperly adjusted auto-cockblock-omatic does more harm than good. Hypothesis: all auto-cockblock-omatics are improperly adjusted.


Posted by: Not Prince Hamlet | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 7:26 PM
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OT: Isn't brown mustard seed delicious? I have become addicted to putting it in things. And to think: before a year ago, I'd never eaten mustard at all! Mustard greens are the gateway drug.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 7:32 PM
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So, are people watching the Republican YouTube debate? Gawd, these mofos are funny.

Also, all the question-askers are dudes.


Posted by: m. leblanc | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 7:35 PM
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yeah, because it's endearing to come across all self-deprecating to someone you haven't even had a date with.

Wait, it isn't? Fuck.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 7:36 PM
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before a year ago, I'd never eaten mustard at all!

What? Not even French's?


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 7:36 PM
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McCain just said flat-out that American public opinion was the only reason we lost Vietnam. Christ.


Posted by: m. leblanc | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 7:38 PM
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226: I will probably die never having done so.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 7:39 PM
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What about Grey Poupon?


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 7:40 PM
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I like black mustard seeds even more. Excellent in many an Indian dish, but also fantastic in potato salad.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 7:40 PM
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Ogged, she's an attractive bass-player. Please don't let music-snobbery steal this chance away from you.

228: I will probably die never having done so.

I can't tell you how much I admire this conviction.


Posted by: mrh | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 7:42 PM
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229: Actually, as far as mustard-as-condiment, I've only gotten to the point where I'll eat mustard I make myself, or that is obviously homemade. I wouldn't voluntarily eat bottled. It's not a snob thing--I've made it happily all these years without it. It's just one of those weird childhood food-aversions that stuck. I can't stand the taste of ketchup, either. It tastes like hate.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 7:43 PM
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232: racist.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 7:46 PM
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McCain just said flat-out that American public opinion was the only reason we lost Vietnam. Christ.

I'm much more shocked that people ever tried to claim Fred Thompson as a sex symbol.


Posted by: destroyer | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 7:47 PM
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At my dad's funeral, we had two limousines: one for his cousins (not Jewish), and one for me, my sister, our mom, and her family (Jewish). Because the funeral service had to be in Albuquerque but the burial had to be in Farmington, we had to spend the middle part of the day driving up there and didn't have time to stop for lunch. (This was only a problem for the people in the limos, who were the only ones who needed to be at both services.) We weren't able to arrange for box lunches, so we spent the night before the funeral making sandwiches for all the people in the limos, which is as good a summation of my mom's character as any. For condiments, we bought a small jar of Grey Poupon mustard and a small jar of Hellman's mayonnaise for each limo and put them in the boxes with the sandwiches.

When we checked after it was all over with, we found that the Jewish limo had opened the mustard but not the mayo, and the non-Jewish limo had opened the mayo but not the mustard. Cultural differences: subtle but pervasive.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 7:50 PM
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I can't stand the taste of ketchup, either. It tastes like hate.

Seriously? Marry me. (Wait, crap.)


Posted by: mrh | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 7:50 PM
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Duncan Hunter on "why do you oppose having gays in the military?" Because most people in the military are conservative, and they don't like gays, and we have to respect their principles.

They're all saying this shit. God, I fucking hate these assholes.


Posted by: m. leblanc | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 7:51 PM
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I can't stand the taste of crap. Who wants to marry me?!


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 7:51 PM
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there is some shit Ned will not eat /cummings


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 7:57 PM
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I read this whole thread just to be stuck in the niche of defending the The Abyss? Fucking great. If the director's cut were on right now, I'd happily watch it. Who doesn't want to see Bill Paxton going crazy from the pressure? No one. And it's touching right before the ending, which of course sucks.


Posted by: washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 8:00 PM
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It's not just Jews and non-Jews. My nuclear family plus aunts, uncles, and cousins makes fun of people, including spouses, who come to our family gatherings and put ketchup on things which we believe only benefit from mustard. I think we do this solely to establish an in- and out- group, but nevertheless.


Posted by: washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 8:04 PM
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In the Midwest it's hot dogs or any sausage with mustard, hamburgers with ketchup. I've done hot dogs with ketchup, but never a hamburger with mustard.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 8:06 PM
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When we checked after it was all over with, we found that the Jewish limo had opened the mustard but not the mayo, and the non-Jewish limo had opened the mayo but not the mustard. Cultural differences: subtle but pervasive.

Teo, that's awesome.

Sorry, w/d, but as soon as the credits rolled at the end of The Abyss, my friend and I turned to each other and simultaneously said, "abysmal."


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 8:09 PM
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In the Midwest it's hot dogs or any sausage with mustard, hamburgers with ketchup. I've done hot dogs with ketchup, but never a hamburger with mustard.

My dad used to put mustard on hamburgers, which drove my mom crazy. She's a staunch believer in mustard on hot dogs, ketchup on hamburgers. I'll put pretty much any condiment on a hamburger, but hot dogs are gross no matter what's on them.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 8:09 PM
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These guys are... nucking futs.

Hot dogs are good with ketchup AND mustard. Ditto hamburgers.


Posted by: TJ | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 8:09 PM
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Oh, the important part of 241 which I failed to mention is that it happens even when both groups are comprised by Jews. 242 first sentence is correct, second sentence is reverse of my (family's) preference.


Posted by: washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 8:10 PM
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Teo, that's awesome.

Yeah, but it was actually a little irritating too because it meant we could have just bought one jar of each. Those little jars are expensive.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 8:10 PM
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When Pret A Manger opened in New York, they realized that New Yorkers like a drier sandwich than Londoners. So more mustard, and easy on the mayo. I prefer the UK sandwiches: the more mayo (er, salad cream) the better.


Posted by: Invisible Adjunct | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 8:11 PM
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Oh, the important part of 241 which I failed to mention is that it happens even when both groups are comprised by Jews.

I can see that; the more striking thing was the mayonnaise. Perhaps the most Gentile of condiments.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 8:11 PM
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These guys are... nucking futs.

Hot dogs are good with ketchup AND mustard. Ditto hamburgers.


Posted by: TJ | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 8:12 PM
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Ketchup goes on nothing, mustard goes on hot dogs.

My sister, when the rest of us were eating pastrami on rye with Gulden's Spicy Brown, would (in front of God and my grandmother) make a bologna sandwich with ketchup on white bread.


Posted by: mrh | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 8:12 PM
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I can't stand mayo, personally.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 8:12 PM
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mrh seems to understand condiments.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 8:12 PM
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My sister, when the rest of us were eating pastrami on rye with Gulden's Spicy Brown, would (in front of God and my grandmother) make a bologna sandwich with ketchup on white bread.

And yet, still no mayo. See?


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 8:13 PM
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oops.


Posted by: TJ | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 8:14 PM
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I'm sorry to let you down, teo, but I've really come around on mayo. A small amount on a hamburger or on a turkey sandwich or on a roast beef sandwich (assuming a 2:1 horseradish-to-mayonnaise ratio) is pretty delicious. All the more so if it's homemade, not Hellmann's.


Posted by: mrh | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 8:15 PM
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No, those Morningstar black bean patties are good with ketchup and goat cheese.


Posted by: TJ | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 8:15 PM
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I put mayo on a grilled cheese sandwich.


Posted by: Invisible Adjunct | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 8:15 PM
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he pre-emptive cockblock is a very important maneuver and more people should employ it

So, here's a question for all of us (but particularly for ogged). What type of person should preemptively decide not to date you? What are the aspects of your own personality or avenues of your self expression that are so important to you that, if someone was not enthusiastic about them, you would want them to avoid engaging with you even if you were predisposed to like them?

My sense: Most of the answers we are inclined to give to these questions are just more lies we tell ourselves: "A woman who didn't appreciate the subtleties of Noh could never be the right girl for me!" Cause we're all deep and unique, of course.


Posted by: baa | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 8:16 PM
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I've never had homemade mayo; it might be okay. The jar stuff is disgusting, though.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 8:16 PM
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What type of person should preemptively decide not to date you?

Someone who has other options.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 8:17 PM
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259: Wow. That's kind of deep. I never thought about it in those terms exactly, but, now that I do, I think no one should date me, ever.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 8:18 PM
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Teo, I keep thinking about this poem as a piece of dating advice I'd give you in less cutting terms.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 8:19 PM
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What type of person should preemptively decide not to date you?

Someone who wanted to date someone interesting.

Also mustard on hotdogs mustard and ketchup on hamburgers.


Posted by: CJB | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 8:20 PM
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Great question, baa. Here are a few: I'm genuinely not fun in the contemporary American sense, so anyone who cares about fun should stay the hell away. And I do care about the blog, so someone who isn't just disinterested, but actively disdains it, would also be best off staying away. Similarly, people who desire a partner who is "ambitious" or "passionate," should look elsewhere. That last unfortunately makes me wrong for about 85% of my yuppie cohort. I could go on.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 8:21 PM
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263: I don't think that's really my problem.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 8:24 PM
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yuppies are overrated


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 8:24 PM
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259: People who actually dance like nobody's watching should avoid me. Someone's always watching. And probably taking notes.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 8:30 PM
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Someone's always watching. And probably taking notes.

And is that someone you, Tim?


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 8:31 PM
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At a minimum.

I want to know baa's answer. I don't think people would lie as they lie to themselves, or not obviously so. I think people have a good sense of bad matches, but most would have a very hard time articulating it because it's something like a picture made up of all sorts of little pieces of information. There isn't a big rule that describes those pieces well.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 8:36 PM
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Wow, my answer is almost the same as ogged:

I'm genuinely not fun ... Similarly, people who desire a partner who is "ambitious" or "passionate" ...

Add to that the fact that I'm a complete geek, deeply private, and generally opposed to novelty.

On the other hand, I have my good points.


Posted by: NickS | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 8:39 PM
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Mayo, cheese, and fresh tomato make for an excellent grilled sandwich. Don't skimp on the ground pepper.


Posted by: Bave Dee | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 8:45 PM
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baa's question is great! I'd say that most people probably shouldn't date me. People who like doing stuff like hiking or surfing. Also, people who really like going out. Anyone who likes to "do stuff" really. Shows, movies, "exploring the city." I'm too lazy to do that shit most of the time--I generally like to sit around and do two things: a) talk b) read the internet. Anyone who thinks manners are important; I'm kind to people I care about, but no one would call me "polite."

Also, anyone who adheres to conventional notions of female attractiveness.

It's a wonder I've managed to basically date one delightful fellow after another, really.


Posted by: m. leblanc | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 8:51 PM
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I'm actually pretty serious about my answer in 261.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 8:55 PM
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Teo, when I come to UnfoggeDCon, I'm bringing you a jar of homemade mayo and a hug.


Posted by: mrh | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 8:57 PM
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Most of what leblanc said applies to me as well, but probably not as strongly. Like, if it's important to someone that they date someone who likes doing stuff, I'm not their man, but if they're okay with my usual sloth and apathy I'm willing to do stuff with them some of the time.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 8:57 PM
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275: A woman would be preferable.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 8:58 PM
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Your too hard on yourself teo. You do better with the ladies then I do so it isn't like your the worst person in the world at it.


Posted by: CJB | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 8:59 PM
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274: Aw, hell.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 8:59 PM
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A jar of woman or a woman of homemade mayo?


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 9:00 PM
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The thing is, when I do get a hair up my ass to go do some activity in particular, I usually want to do it alone.


Posted by: m. leblanc | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 9:00 PM
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A woman would be preferable

Well, I think I'm carpooling down with BG, but I should probably let her speak for herself.


Posted by: mrh | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 9:01 PM
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mayo on a grilled cheese sandwich.

Unspeakable. At the risk of invoking stereotype, are you Russian, cracker, or both?


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 9:01 PM
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The thing is, when I do get a hair up my ass to go do some activity in particular, I usually want to do it alone.

Interesting. When I do decide to do something I generally do it alone, but I would usually prefer to have someone else there.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 9:03 PM
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A jar of woman or a woman of homemade mayo?

Whichever is easier to transport.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 9:04 PM
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This exercise that baa invoked is making me realized how bizarre a person I am. Mostly when teo said "sloth and apathy." I'm actually not apathetic at all. I get super excited and worked up about stuff. I'm actually really outgoing and friendly. I'm just lazy as fuck.


Posted by: m. leblanc | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 9:04 PM
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Butter on a grilled cheese sandwich, says me.

Ketchup on french fries (or more properly, for dipping french fries in). Also, european mayo for dipping european frites in. There's a place in Berkeley that at least used to sell fantastic fried potatoes with cumin and garlic and homemade mayonnaise that really sold me on that idea.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 9:05 PM
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A more serious answer from me would be that no one should date me who desires a relationship that feels "comfortable," because I don't (or won't) make habits or patterns in relationships. I should be ruled out by anyone who desires either fashion-plate arm-candy or a partner in schlumpiness. Avid gym-goers think me lazy; couch potatoes find me obnoxiously active. Creative types think I'm a sell-out, while professionals deem me an ivory-tower-bound do-goody dreamer. Atheists are disturbed by my residual Protestantism, and anyone religious is horrified. Sex-positive people think I'm queasily priggish, and even regular serial monogamists think I'm a slut. Bougie foodies despise my vegetarianism, but regular volk get quickly sick of my spicy ethnic cooking. I'm genuinely not smart enough to follow a lot of current-intellectual-type talk, but I accidentally use hard words in conversation that upset less articulate types. I'm not particularly nice, though too soft for meanies. Older guys find me laughable, young guys are terrified, pretty boys think I'm too ugly to date, and less-pretty boys think I'm too ugly to fuck.

Shorter me: no one should date me, ever.

OTOH: I recognize all of the above and seriously have zero self-esteem problems. So don't get all maudlin on my behalf. I should add that my ego is a preventative for anyone the above doesn't rule out.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 9:05 PM
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baa's question is fine for people like leblanc who end up dating awesome people and can reflect on their own foibles while still more or less keeping it together romantically. For those of us with the gift of auto-cockblockage, it's exactly the wrong question to ask. I'm trying to learn to let other people rule me out rather than doing it for them, because really, I have no idea beforehand whether another person is going to want to be with me. Sometimes I'm pleasantly surprised. Seriously, teo, you have lots of people who know you pretty well and like you a lot; it's not so hard to believe that some hot Albuquerque female bass player will overlook your lack of interest in music and get all googly-eyed over your knowledge of Arabic grammar, or whatever. /painful earnestness


Posted by: Bave Dee | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 9:05 PM
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Aw, hell.

Oh, it's not so bad. I just think that I don't have a whole lot to offer that's immediately obvious, so anyone who's going to date me is going to need to put in quite a bit of work before getting to the good stuff, and I assume the only kind of woman who would be willing to do that is someone who's also lonely.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 9:06 PM
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AWB, you sound like the Middle Way. Dating you would thus be the road to Nirvana.


Posted by: Bave Dee | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 9:07 PM
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"Bougie foodies"? Who are these candle eaters of whom you speak?

/obnoxious pedantry


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 9:07 PM
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284: Well, if I actually am going to do it, it's something I'm super excited about, and I don't want some along-for-the-ride person spoiling my fun. Going to a show of a band you love with someone who's just there with you is kind of annoying. Going to museums with others? Usually their lack of interest and excitement about the things I like grates. Going to see somewhere pretty? I just want to take like a shit-ton of pictures, but am trying not to be too slow so as to not annoy the other person.

Basically, my problem is that I'm hyper-aware of whether the other person is having a good time. So if they're inclined to be having less fun than me, I'd rather be alone.


Posted by: m. leblanc | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 9:09 PM
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Bougie foodies despise my vegetarianism, but regular volk get quickly sick of my spicy ethnic cooking.

I am very familiar with this dilemma.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 9:09 PM
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292: (I know it's a funny use of the word, but my students say it all the time and I think it's cute.)


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 9:10 PM
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Boogie Nights foodies.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 9:10 PM
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But, AWB, for the record, you have always seemed thoroughly charming to me.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 9:10 PM
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I'm trying to learn to let other people rule me out rather than doing it for them

Well this just seems wildly inefficient.


Posted by: CJB | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 9:11 PM
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Seriously, teo, you have lots of people who know you pretty well and like you a lot; it's not so hard to believe that some hot Albuquerque female bass player will overlook your lack of interest in music and get all googly-eyed over your knowledge of Arabic grammar, or whatever.

See, I really hope this is true, and I suppose it probably is on some level, but in practice it seems that all those hot bass players meet confident, outgoing guys and start dating them long before they meet me, and from there it's not much of a jump to believe that if they were in a situation where they had to choose between me and one of those guys they would choose him.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 9:11 PM
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R! There's an "r"! They are "bourgie" foodies!!!! (Sorry, this turns up everywhere and I have decided to "person" this particular barricade.)


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 9:12 PM
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Republicans (if I like you enough to go out with you, I will be convinced you just need to be educated & will try to convert you & be insufferable). Anyone too cynical to at least respect a starry-eyed change-the-world streak. Anyone who expects me to do more than half of keeping the house clean etc & to know how to do things like, oh, iron a shirt. Anyone easily annoyed by procrastination & laziness, or put off by girls who are too emotionally demonstrative.


Posted by: Katherine | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 9:13 PM
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300: I know! It's not ignorance of the word that makes people say it that way, I don't think. It's just that using "bourgie" as slang makes me want to STAB STAB STAB for some reason. But mostly, it's just not what teens from Queens say, and I'd like to let them rule this particular school.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 9:13 PM
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Do they say it "boozhee"?


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 9:15 PM
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I'm quite thankful for these internets. I used to think I was neurotic.


Posted by: Gibbons | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 9:15 PM
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Well, if I actually am going to do it, it's something I'm super excited about, and I don't want some along-for-the-ride person spoiling my fun. Going to a show of a band you love with someone who's just there with you is kind of annoying. Going to museums with others? Usually their lack of interest and excitement about the things I like grates. Going to see somewhere pretty? I just want to take like a shit-ton of pictures, but am trying not to be too slow so as to not annoy the other person.

Yeah, sounds like apathy is the difference between us. I'm basically never this excited about anything, so while I do go out and do stuff from time to time, because it beats sitting at home, I would always prefer to have someone (not just anyone, but a date-type person) along with me so that I could have a chance to be with them for a while. Come to think of it, I would really just like to have someone along with me no matter what I'm doing. Going out and doing stuff would just provide more obvious cues for conversation.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 9:15 PM
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I'm trying to think of things that would be off-putting to a lot of people, rather than awesome things about me that would rule people out. Another one: if people don't like to be teased and joked with a lot of the time, they should stay away. It's like a conversational tic where we have to run through ten jokey things before we can do one serious thing, and that's exhausting to a lot of people. I managed to tone it down with exbeforelast, who didn't have a ton of patience for it, but I felt hemmed in!


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 9:15 PM
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297: *blush* But we've... never met! (We should, I think, if you're into that sort of thing.)


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 9:16 PM
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But, as to your point, I run into the same problem with these peeps w/r/t my vegetarianism. I have a foodie family who are all in the wine or restaurant biz. I'm frankly a better cook than any of them, but somehow am still a rube because I won't eat meat.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 9:16 PM
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Teo, you should do cocaine.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 9:17 PM
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304: Yes, they do!


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 9:17 PM
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Anyone too cynical to at least respect a starry-eyed change-the-world streak

Oh, this is totally right. Cynical people & me don't really get along. Also, depressed people. I'm basically annoyingly cheerful.

Although depressed people do decide to date me. I don't get it. Actually every single person I've had a relationship with has suffered from chronic depression. WTF?


Posted by: m. leblanc | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 9:17 PM
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Oh, this is totally right. Cynical people & me don't really get along. Also, depressed people. I'm basically annoyingly cheerful.

These are of the "I'm so awesome variety."


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 9:18 PM
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Yeah, it's pronounced "boo-zhee" with a soupçon of "r" in there. But "bougie" means candle, and "bourgie" means some upper middle class twat with a broom up their ass.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 9:19 PM
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311: Everyone who has dated me has ended up suffering from chronic depression.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 9:19 PM
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Teo, you should do cocaine.

Bring some to UnfoggeDCon and we'll see.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 9:19 PM
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I was just thinking you might that, ogged. You're right, but it really is annoying. It annoys mostly everyone.


Posted by: m. leblanc | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 9:20 PM
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, or put off by girls who are too emotionally demonstrative

That's a pretty good one. I tend to be touch-ey--as opposed to touchy or handsy--so someone who disliked small, frequent, physical displays of affection is probably not ideal.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 9:20 PM
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No wonder we cynical depressive types have trouble dating.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 9:20 PM
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Unfogged: the home of the bourgie veggie foodies.


Posted by: Bave Dee | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 9:20 PM
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I admit that I asked that question with a hypothesis in mind.

One sees in the world lots of "won't date democrats," "won't date someone whose favorite book is John Grisham," etc. The reality, I suspect, is that most of this is shadow play. When we really contemplate what elements of our personality constitute our core self, the non-negotiable items are elemental dispositions or aspects of temperament: introvert vs. extrovert, ambition/striving vs. contentment/rest, orientation towards or against action, positivity vs.negativity, etc.

What we want is someone we can basically communicate with, someone who shares our general temperament (in outline, although some people want to be expanded or challenged along some axis). After that, it's all the weird alchemy of interpersonal connection. And you never know where that will come from.


Posted by: baa | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 9:20 PM
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I think there are plenty of people who would be compatible with the Teo-companionable lifestyle; the trick, I guess, is that this probably means both you and she are less likely to be in active, meeting-person circulation at any given time. Still, though -- I'm pretty outgoing, and I often gravitate towards quiet, shy guys. I have a very strong interest in just hanging out in a state of lazy companionship. So I always kind of imagine that some similar type will eventually find you and keep asking you to have lunch with her and chat merrily away at you and ask you all kinds of questions about the things you've been reading and thinking about, until you can no longer ignore the fact that she obviously likes you.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 9:23 PM
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317 reminds me that, though I like lots of sex, being touched affectionately outside of erotic situations makes my skin crawl. So there's that, too. Hugs and massages are okay. Cheek-caressing makes me wish I was dead.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 9:24 PM
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Ogged, don't date anyone ever. Because if you do, you might get married and have a kid, and then you will have to ride to the pool with the kid on bikes, which involves the kid yelling the whole way about how he CAN'T he's SCARED (of course, he can, perfectly well) and when he's not yelling he's going SO SLOW THAT YOU FEEL LIKE YOU ARE GOING TO DIE and then in the pool there's more yelling about how he CAN'T he's SCARED DON'T LEAVE ME MAMA but of course he can and does and then when it's time to go he DOESN'T WANT TO GET OUT OF THE POOL CAN'T I SWIM SOME MORE and then in the locker room IT'S TOO COLD TO GET OUT OF THE SHOWER and then you bike back and it's a little bit uphill so there's more about how he CAN'T and THESE TRAINING WHEELS SUCK and basically by the time you get home--an hour after you figured you would!--you're ready to kill him and then yourself.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 9:24 PM
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312: you think? I'm not annoyingly cheerful, I'm anxiety-prone. But REQUIRING that people not be too cynical is sort of a "(stomping foot) I demand to be taken seriously!!!" quality that I've had since I was a kid & don't think is necessarily a good thing.


Posted by: Katherine | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 9:24 PM
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I really should read rfts's food blog more. Ethnic spicy vegetarian food is exactly what I like to cook, but I have very few things that I know how to make.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 9:24 PM
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Oh, and this pool excursion was ENTIRELY HIS IDEA.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 9:25 PM
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Oh, and, AWB, I know we never met, but your blog is very much late and lamented for me!


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 9:25 PM
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313: I was wondering specifically about the Queens version.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 9:25 PM
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Cheek-caressing makes me wish I was dead.

Ugh. Me, too. Actually, it makes me wonder if I missed a spot when shaving.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 9:26 PM
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306: Oh god, I have a terrible case of this, though I think I've gotten better at being serious while flirting.

Right now I'm trying to figure out why (and if) a woman 10 years my elder would be interested in me.


Posted by: Gibbons | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 9:27 PM
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I'm sorry for your pain, Bitch, but 323 had me laughing and laughing.


Posted by: m. leblanc | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 9:27 PM
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328: My students (Queens, Long Island, the Bronx) say "BOO-zhee," but it's almost "BOO-jee." It's not subtle, or French. But it's always deliciously pejorative.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 9:28 PM
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After that, it's all the weird alchemy of interpersonal connection. And you never know where that will come from.

John Gray acolytes would not match up well with me.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 9:28 PM
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332: Are they black? That's a pretty long-used word, to the best of my knowledge.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 9:30 PM
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I'm ridiculously sitting here all like, I know what "bougie" and "bourgie" mean! HOW COULD OUDEMIA UNDERESTIMATE ME LIKE THAT? After all we've been through! Or something like that.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 9:30 PM
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Who caresses a cheek? Other than George Bush when he visits congress, I mean.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 9:31 PM
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Cheeks feel nice. What's wrong with you people?


Posted by: m. leblanc | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 9:32 PM
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No face-touching!

Other than that, affectionate touching is great.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 9:33 PM
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335: No! No! RFTS -- never ever! It was only my pretension tourettes!!!


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 9:34 PM
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334: Lots of them are, but it's not just a black thing. It's also just a working-class NY teen thing. Latino, Jewish, Russian. And they all, to a one, say "Pafessa." Never my name, though I beg them, please, to call me by my first or last name. "Yo, pafessa!" I'm thinking of having mine legally changed. Pafessa Bear is kinda cute and femmy.

336: I just got in an argument with my old co-blogger about whether it's "cruel" to tell a partner that cheek-caressing does not feel nice (as his roommate's wife recently asserted). He said the lover's body should be receptive to nicely-meant strokings. I held that such strokings should be grounds for near-hostility.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 9:36 PM
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Damn, B., sorry about your day. My cat won't eat ... but she's not complaining, and eating wasn't her idea, and you've just had a tremendously worse day than I had. All of which is only to say, well, I'm happy to have cats instead of children, for intentions suck ass.


Posted by: SEK | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 9:37 PM
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Jesus, that made sense in my head. That's the last time I'll exercise. Makes me think all sore ...


Posted by: SEK | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 9:38 PM
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Pretension Tourettes is the best Tourettes. I mentioned it mainly because I was amused that I would have any such reaction. "How could anyone think I did not know the French word for candle! She may as well suggest that I had not read Titus Andronicus or that my mother was a sheepdog!"


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 9:38 PM
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Pafessa

I love it. It sounds like an obscure title of nobility.


Posted by: mrh | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 9:44 PM
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My students (Queens, Long Island, the Bronx) say "BOO-zhee," but it's almost "BOO-jee." It's not subtle, or French. But it's always deliciously pejorative.

Gladys knight - bourgie bourgie


Posted by: Lemmy Caution | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 9:58 PM
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i just simply like this song
the hardest part
please do not draw any parallels

for pafessa, may be your students feel somehow your condescending attitude towards them and prefer to call your title, not your name
sorry


Posted by: read | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 10:00 PM
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I get super excited and worked up about stuff. I'm actually really outgoing and friendly. I'm just lazy as fuck.

Once again, LeBlanc and I? Soul mates.

Except that I like doing stuff with people, mostly. And I think she's wrong about the depressed/cynical thing, because I'm both and I think she's awesome.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 10:09 PM
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for pafessa, may be your students feel somehow your condescending attitude towards them and prefer to call your title, not your name

Oh good grief.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 10:10 PM
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346: Fuck you, read. Honestly. Pafessa is a term of endearment.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 10:10 PM
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I'm sorry for your pain, Bitch, but 323 had me laughing and laughing.

I rant exasperatedly in order to amuse.

SEK, it was really rather a nice day. It's good to actually do stuff once in a while, even if it sometimes includes fantasies of infanticide. Also, if your cat won't eat, keep a close eye on her; she might be sick.

I like the word "bourgie." It identifies the thing it describes perfectly.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 10:12 PM
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AWB, I too get exactly the same food thing, all the time. rtfs has a food blog? Damn, I wasn't paying attention.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 10:13 PM
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348, 349: Yeah, honestly. I mean, we might troll ourselves once and a while, but who would otherwise bother trolling over here? Seems like not a lot of bang for one's buck.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 10:14 PM
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349
good for you
though it's the first time someone told me fuck you
i'm shocked


Posted by: read | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 10:17 PM
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Baa's question is indeed a good one. The more I think about it, the more it seems that the women who would be best off not dating me are pretty much the same as people who would be best off not knowing me.

So long as they can stand my bouts of pretentiousness and occasional stubborness, my brief flashes of pugnacity and my bizarre tastes in music, my motley crew of friends that I pick up at concerts, bars, schools, parks, beaches and sometimes on the internet, and my desire to eat meat regularly... Well, so long as they have tolerance for all these things and my skinny-boy looks and my callow youth, they'd probably be ok with dating me.

I'm sure I've got other dealbreakers, but the sort of people who'd never date me for reasons of personality aren't the sort of people I ever really run into and end up talking to, for seemingly obvious reasons.


Posted by: Po-Mo Polymath | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 11:52 PM
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I've never had homemade mustard but I think I make a decent mayonnaise. This exhausts my opinions about condiments.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 11-29-07 12:36 AM
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Look, this is all very interesting, but the main point is that you should never say that a group is comprised by its members, when what is true is that the members are comprised by the group... Yes, washerdreyer, I'm looking at you...


Posted by: Amit | Link to this comment | 11-29-07 6:55 AM
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when what is true is that the members are comprised by the group

Or, in the active voice, the group comprises the members. The members constitute the group.

/pendantry


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 11-29-07 6:58 AM
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223: How do you cook mustard greens? I just sort of figured out collards this summer, but greens scare me and I need to learn how to cook and eat more of them!


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 11-29-07 8:43 AM
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Jammies has a tendency to repetitively stroke the same spot on my arm or neck or leg until I flip out and scream that he's going to wear a hole in me.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 11-29-07 8:55 AM
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Fry up some chopped bacon and onion, maybe 3 strips bacon and half an onion for a supermarket bunch of greens. Wilt the greens in a bit of water for 2-3 minutes. Add some white vinegar and tabasco or salsa yucateco. Goes well with old-time blues.


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 11-29-07 8:56 AM
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357: "pendantry"? Surely you don't expect us just to leave that hanging there?


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 11-29-07 9:37 AM
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AWB, I too get exactly the same food thing, all the time. rtfs has a food blog? Damn, I wasn't paying attention.

http://stuttercut.org/hungry


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 11-29-07 9:41 AM
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In writing that comment my though process went something like, "I know "comprise" is a word that regularly gets used wrongly. I'm not sure of what the proper usage is, but I'll just go with my instincts." Damn you, instincts! I have now marked the proper page of my handy style guide in case I encounter this problem again.


Posted by: washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 11-29-07 9:52 AM
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Just ignore "comprise". Both things that it might potentially mean have synonyms.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 11-29-07 10:06 AM
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That's what I do. I never got the hang of using it naturally, and it's never necessary -- the synonyms are pretty precise. If I'm editing someone else's prose and come across it, I end up looking it up every time.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 11-29-07 10:09 AM
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There's a place in Berkeley that at least used to sell fantastic fried potatoes with cumin and garlic and homemade mayonnaise that really sold me on that idea.

That sounds awesome. Do you remember the name or where it was?


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 11-29-07 12:57 PM
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Bar Cesar, on Shattuck and (I think) Cedar.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 11-29-07 12:59 PM
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Huh, I've been there, but I didn't pick up that the fries were prepared that way. Bummer... an excuse to go back!


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 11-29-07 1:02 PM
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I haven't been there in a few years; they may not be serving them that way now. But if they are, do try them!


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 11-29-07 1:03 PM
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Bar Cesar is the Ches Panisse bar, right?


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 11-29-07 2:05 PM
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Mais non! It's next to Chez Panisse but actually (part?) owned by Alice Waters' ex.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 11-29-07 2:06 PM
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Oh hey -- I had a very restorative Campari and soda at Bar Cesar on a very hot day.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 11-29-07 2:26 PM
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Jammies has a tendency to repetitively stroke the same spot on my arm or neck or leg until I flip out and scream that he's going to wear a hole in me.

My love for Heebie continues to burn brightly.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 11-29-07 2:31 PM
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Re 363:

Actually, the only way I ever remember it is to consult my instincts and then do the opposite.


Posted by: Amit | Link to this comment | 11-29-07 3:50 PM
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