Arthur isn't the proper comparison; it's Hoover.

Heh, you said "hoover."

Eh, I was gonna say Harding, but Apo's got the idea.

Still, if Hoover hadn't been into cross-dressing, the general population would know as little about him as we do about any other major corrupt and incompetent bureaucrats of our nation's past.

1: = Herbert, no?

I think Apo meant Herbert, not J. Edgar.

Wrong Hoover, no? J. Edgar wore the little black dresses, while Herbert presided over the Depression.

4 and 5 are correct, but I'm still not giving up the honor of having got the idea.

It will be fascinating (no, really) to see what his post-presidency is like. He's a young guy, he will be with us for a while.

1. Does he retain influence within the party, or does the GOP run away from him like the Dems from Carter? I'm not sure which; I fear the Dems won't have the chops to demonize/associate that effectively. Also, it probably makes a difference which party wins in 2008.

2. Does he remain active in public life? My guess is he will be most concerned with cashing in, but you've got to think his concern for his legacy will tempt him to stay in the public eye. What issue does he take up?

3. Do the movement faithful make a concerted effort to rehabilitate him after a decent interval? It worked for Nixon. But then again Nixon had some positive qualities to build on, with GWB I'm not sure that it's doable.

4. Does the religious right maintain their steadfast devotion to him? I'm guessing "no", because he won't give them the time of day once they are no longer useful to him, but who knows?

8: My guess is he finally gives up the pretense of not drinking and settles into alcoholic dementia.

If we're going to gin up to run against him for the next thirty years, we've got to make sure people remember him in all his glory.

I coudl sese Bush's reputation being much better in 10 to 15 years time, especially if anything goes clusterfuck after he leaves office (economy, middle east, terrorism--all of which he's set up to have fail). He the sort of guy who looks a lot worse (to friends and enemies alike) the closer look you get at him--consequently, may well start to look better at some remove of time. Abstracting away from all his terrible decisions, one couldview him as steadfast and resolute in a time of crisis; he was "the decider", and unapologetically so.

With enough historical revisionism, there's plenty to love. Or at least plenty that could be spun into lovable qualities. Of course I hope that's wrong.

If we're going to gin up to run against him for the next thirty years, we've got to make sure people remember him in all his glory.

So what's the equivilent of "Hooverville" (which, incidentally, is the association through which I remember that Hoover was the presided over the crash).

10 is exactly right. I can't tell you how many Californian elections have been run against "Pete Wilson and his anti-immigrant agenda" since I've been here, even though the man left office nine years ago.

So what's the equivilent of "Hooverville"

More importantly, what's the Bush-era equivalent of Annie the musical, which is how I know about "Hoovervilles".

11: On the other hand, without someone writing his scripts and putting him in front of flattering backdrops, he's an embarrassingly bad talker. If he's visible at all, I think he's going to be viewed with a certain amount of contempt once he lacks the trappings of the Presidency protecting him.

re: 15

Although those videos of him someone dug up a while back from the early days of his campaign to be Texas governator are surprisingly articulate. His post-2000 persona seems brain damaged by comparison.

15: Exactly. And once the press no longer has anything to fear from him, and once the rest of the GOP sees the cost-benefit equation tip in favor of attacking him. D-Squared's theory of the timing of the Labour backbench revolt has relevance here.

Since you yourself posted that link in a comment, ogged, the link in the body of this post is a pretty transparent attempt to up my traffic, no?

I thank you wholeheartedly.

Well, in a country where the nuking of Japan is considered by many to have been heroic, it wouldn't at all shock me to see Bush viewed favorably.

The story could go something like this: Bush sends troops into Iraq to kill terrorists who took down the Twin Towers. He stuck to his guns when those weak-kneed democrats wanted to pull out before the job was done. Now, you can get a mcdonalds cheeseburger or starbucks coffee on any Baghdad corner.

Tens of thousands or Iraqi civilian deaths? Erosion of American civil liberties? Military-industrial complex spending at the sacrifice of social policy? Hippy talk.

If he's visible at all

Agreed, but I very highly doubt he will be.

mostly, i hope he is not remembered as the guy who precipitated the death of america.
not to sound too bob mcmanus on y'all, but comparing him to c.a. arthur makes the assumption that the u.s. is going to remain on an even keel for the next century or so. only then can his horrors fade into obscurity.
it's the possibility that he'll be remembered as our nero. or our marius, if giuliani gets all caesar on us.

I think Apo meant Herbert, not J. Edgar.

I understand the point being made, but this seems wrong. IIRC, Hoover was a wildly accomplished man by the time he reached the Presidency. He was, it seems to me, the right System pick. It just didn't work out. Bush, on the other hand, always seemed unqualified. His initial nomination is a symptom of a failure of the Republican Party, on at least the competence axis, in a way that Hoover's nomination wasn't.

Note further that a lot of people see Huckabee as the closest thing to a Bush ideological heir, and that Huck also seems to be the least objectionable Republican to many Democrats.

For the moment, I'm sticking Bush in the sui generis weird category.

Note further that a lot of people see Huckabee as the closest thing to a Bush ideological heir

Source? I'm not sure I buy this.

12: So what's the equivilent of "Hooverville"

New Orleans.

23: I think that would be true of the people who voted for Bush because of his commitment to making the US better serve the goals of the Lord God, and who have not been disadvantaged by his administration.

Note further that a lot of people see Huckabee as the closest thing to a Bush ideological heir, and that Huck also seems to be the least objectionable Republican to many Democrats.

The weird thing about this Republican election is that while nobody wants to talk about being Bush's ideological heir, any number of them seem to want to actually be his ideological heir - with Giuliani making what I think is the best case.

I hadn't thought about Huckabee's resemblance to Bush, though - it really does fit in ways that hadn't occurred to me before, especially as regards non-hatred for immigrants from Mexico.

That motherfucker is pissing me off.

I suspect that Republicans will run away from Bush as best they can. If the US recovers and survives, Bush will be remembered as the worst President ever. If we end up with a post-democratic state, Bush might be honored as the man who set the wheels in motion. At least secretly -- it might be necessary for the post-democratic regime to pretend that he was an incompetent democrat whom they had to replace, rather than the anti-democratic conspirator that he really has been.

My present nightmare is that Huckabee inherit's Bush's front man position and Giuliani inherits Cheney's strongman position. It would be like the Shogun replacing the Mikado -- the VP would become the actual head of the government, and the President the figurehead.

23: On compassionate conservative grounds, Goldberg, arguably Gerson, and arguably Larison. I've seen it much, much more often than that (I think Douthat and Salaam have said the same). And it seems true on its face that if there is a "compassionate conservative" in the race, it's Huckabee.

A Huckabee-Giuliani ticket? If Huckabee manages to win the nomination, I can't see why he would do that.

Hey, who's excited for this?

29: A partner at my firm was somewhat gobsmacked to be told that yes, no fooling, the book of Mormon involves the ten lost tribes of Israel coming to America, and good Mormons get their own planets when they die. So, there's stuff to be learned out there.

28: Since when is compassionate conservatism part of the Bush legacy? Even rhetorically, he more or less gave it up quickly for other strategies.

28: hmm, I guess so. I'd sort of forgotten about anyone identifying Bush in any way with the phrase "compassionate conservative", which is his case (if not all cases) is such obvious and total horseshit it seems not really fair even to call that Bush's "ideology". Despite whatever he may have said in 1999.

Although evangelicalism is considerable in the US, it doesn't make Bush and Huckabee comparable. Bush won he Republican nomination because he was the chosen by their establishment. That's why Romney won't win. He can spend every dollar of his billions and it won't stop the Republican establishment from muscling the primaries to Giuliani.

30: Did you tell him about non-white Mormons turning white after they die?

I didn't know that bit.

It's true that Huckabee looks like Bush in 2000, but that seems to be a weird criticism to raise when Giuliani looks like Bush in 2008.

30: Damn, LB, I hadn't heard the planet thing.

31: I'm not convinced that's accurate; he made some moves towards that end, and it's not clear to me that--as happened to LBJ--a war didn't swamp Bush's intentions. Moreover, I tend to look at candidates as teh end production of negotiations between coalitions. Huckabee's recent surge suggests to me that there really is a "compassionate conservative" coalition out there, and that it isn't going to roll over and play dead for business interests.

Yeah, it's kind of lousy to bring it up, given that every religion has it's own weirdness, but it was an entertaining "You're lying" ""No, really" "I don't believe you, you're lying" "Really I'm not, look it up" conversation.

Damn, LB, I hadn't heard the planet thing.

And, IIRC, they get to choose which wives from which lives they take with them to their planet.

Yeah, it's kind of lousy to bring it up, given that every religion has it's own weirdness

I think it's perfectly reasonable to bring it up. Unless you think an atheist would get a pass on his/her beliefs in a presidential campaign.

36- Which is why Giuliani will win the Republican nomination. The Republicans care somewhat less than Democrats about a nominee's chances of winning the general. Or maybe they do and realize media wisdom for winning the general doesn't hold.

Well, it's lousy to bring it up if the implication is "There's nothing even a little peculiar about Methodism/Islam/Catholicism/Conservative Judeaism/Whatever, but Mormons are just weird."

39- What happens to the wives that don't get to go to planet paradise?

Fair enough, but it's probably true that there's nothing even a little peculiar about Methodism.

There does seem to be some conservatives for whom Bush's greatest sin is his supposed compassion -- I guess the prescription drug benefit is the best example of Bush's alleged compassion in action. Bruce Bartlett is one conservative that mainly seems to detest Bush for his overly "compassionate" spendthrift ways.

And then there are other conservatives that turned against Bush for his excessive "compassion" for illegal immigrants.

I'll stand up right now and say that mainline Christianity professes lots of inane bullshit, but the LDS orthodoxy is about three steps short of Scientology and Raëlism.

No offense to anybody here who was raised in it, but deep down you know it's true.

there's nothing even a little peculiar about Methodism

My mother was raised Methodist; she calls them "God's lukewarm people."

42: I wonder if Romney will do better where there are decent-sized Mormon populations. The difference between Mormonism and various other religions--beyond the fact that Mormonism is weird and untrue, obv.--is that there a lot of Catholics/Jews/Baptists out there, everywhere, being normal. I wonder if fewer people are just unaware of Mormons, somehow. (Weirder still: if Mormons are weird at all in real life, it's because they're too normal in ways that we're supposed to want.)

46--
i don't think there is a full three steps distance between lds and scientism.
unless they're baby steps.
both of them should be decertified by the irs.
the rule should be: no religions that were not in existence at the time of the constitution's ratification.
that stuff about no laws regarding establishment? that should be read strictly, in the light of original intent. since those newer pseudo-religions didn't even exist, the founders obviously couldn't have included them within their intent.

the founders obviously couldn't have included them within their intent.

Also, we need to shut down the Air Force, pronto.

50: Now who's being naive, Kay? Roswell wasn't the first visit.

You only think it's weird because it's recent. Imagine what the Roman authorities thought about Christianity's claim to being a proper religion. And the reaction of the city fathers of Mecca to Islam is a matter of record. If the LDS is still around in a couple of thousand years it'll just look banal.

Huckabee's recent surge suggests to me that there really is a "compassionate conservative" coalition out there, and that it isn't going to roll over and play dead for business interests.

In the Republican primary? You've got to be kidding.

"Compassionate conservatism" was a slogan deliberately crafted to position GWB with swing voters in the general election. There was never any substantive content behind it, apart from some window dressing (faith-based intiatives, marriage promotion, comprehensive immigration reform) that was motivated by partisan concerns. This is one case where absolute cynicism is a well-nigh infallible interpretive tool.

Most of the LDS families that I know are very family and community oriented. Horrible generalization, but, if you know a Mormon family, you probably have relatively good thoughts about the religion. Or at least, not bad thoughts.

53: There are, in fact, people who are Republicans who are also compassionate. My uncle Tom is one. He's very similar to Huckabee.

Although evangelicalism is considerable in the US, it doesn't make Bush and Huckabee comparable. Bush won he Republican nomination because he was the chosen by their establishment. That's why Romney won't win. He can spend every dollar of his billions and it won't stop the Republican establishment from muscling the primaries to Giuliani.

Romney isn't the business candidate? The Republican establishment isn't the business establishment? I don't get it.

(Weirder still: if Mormons are weird at all in real life, it's because they're too normal in ways that we're supposed to want.)

This is my experience also - in fact, not merely in ways that we're "supposed" to want, but in ways that I find genuinely appealing. In my experience, Mormons are nice about their differences with the unenlightened - in sharp contrast to, say, certain brands of evangelical Christianity.

50--
wait, that reminds me of something i read on the nets not too long ago.
the point was that the creation of the air force really does raise constitutional issues, because article i specifies different funding structures for the army & navy. the army is limited to two year appropriations; there are no limits on the navy. (this having to do with early worries about standing armies). so is the air force to be funded like the army or navy?
also: air force bases in nevada, salt lake city in nevada: now do you see the pattern?

Note also:

Grover Norquist, president of the influential group Americans for Tax Reform told The Brody File today that while he has some reservations about Mike Huckabee's past record on taxes, he also is comfortable with Huckabee's present actions and thinks, "we should accept converts."

"Compassionate conservatism" was a slogan deliberately crafted to position GWB with swing voters in the general election.

Who care if Bush had content for it--I think he had some--it appealed specifically to the Southern Conservative and Gersonite crowds. If they're important, they'll get stuff. And it'll probably look like stuff you want, but with a twist.

salt lake city in nevada: now do you see the pattern?

Um, no?

the LDS orthodoxy is about three steps short of Scientology and Raëlism

Apo beat me to it. If I were into agitprop, I'd be putting up some "Scientologists for Romney" ads on YouTube. (The first time I typed that it came out as "Scientologists for Romany," which is what I might do if I were into Dada.)

they're too normal in ways that we're supposed to want

The Mormons I went to high school and college with were kinda abnormally normal - never in trouble and always on the honor roll. You could only tell them apart by the no caffeine and alcohol thing. Which, honestly, only a truly hateful god would insist his people avoid.

apart by the no caffeine and alcohol thing.

That, sex, and swearing, were what I was thinking about.

60--
your perception is being clouded by thetans.
let's just hook you up to the machine here.
now do you see the pattern?

Mormons curse a lot during sex? I never knew that.

65: Yes, you see, a double negative becomes a positive. They also only smoke cigarettes soaked in schnapps.

There are, in fact, people who are Republicans who are also compassionate. My uncle Tom is one. He's very similar to Huckabee.

No doubt. But they do not constitute a sufficient portion of the Republican primary electorate (or of the Republican donor base) to win a primary campaign. If Huckabee wins (and I don't entirely rule that out), it will be despite his reputation for giving a shit about the dispossessed and not because of it.

50. Also, we need to shut down the Air Force, pronto.

When I first read this I thought you meant too many Mormon AF officers. Which is true, but the FBI is the real Mormon stronghold.

But they do not constitute a sufficient portion of the Republican primary electorate (or of the Republican donor base) to win a primary campaign.

Southern Republicans are, according to George Will, 38% of the Republican voting base. And Huckabee is a Southern Conservative diluted for suburban consumption. It is, otoh, unclear whether they'll actually use their electoral power.

Huckabee doesn't want to shoot Hispanics in the head, so he's probably toast as far as the nomination goes.

My uncle Tom is one. He's very similar to Huckabee.

Mr. Huckabee, he was a house candidate, always putting on airs and thinking himself superior. Not like Mr. Giuliani, Mr. McCain, and Mr. Romney, working in the field all day.

I really could have done that reference better.

Southern Republicans are, according to George Will, 38% of the Republican voting base. And Huckabee is a Southern Conservative diluted for suburban consumption.

Southern Republican or Southern Conservative != "compassionate conservative". The phrase was invented to extend GWB's appeal beyond the base.

I thought Condi and Powell were the house slaves?

56- Romney may be A business candidate, but he is definitely not THE business candidates. Clinton and Giuliani both have substantial corporate support. Either of those will be more than qualified to promote corporate interests.

it won't stop the Republican establishment from muscling the primaries to Giuliani

I think the Shag Fund story is going to sink Giuliani's campaign. Also, individual Republican voters will decide this race, not the "establishment". There isn't really an establishment candidate in the race for the voters to flock toward, so it's open season.

Hey Cala: If I say anything rude or nasty to you this week, it's not personal, m'kay?

The compassionate conservative argument has not crossed my mind since the stolen election. Isn't that actually a perjorative? Seriously.

77. Everybody has had their shot, KR. They all blew it, except Hawaii. Fucking Stanford. Stupid tree.

Southern Republican or Southern Conservative != "compassionate conservative". The phrase was invented to extend GWB's appeal beyond the base.

The phrase is marketing. The motivating impulse (a) was there before, and (b) is a tip of hat towards Southern Conservatives and the suburbans who love them. Compare Bush '00 rhetoric to Huckabee's rhetoric.

Republican voters will decide this race, not the "establishment".

Isn't that what people were saying about the 'straight talk express'?

48: The difference between Mormonism and various other religions--beyond the fact that Mormonism is weird and untrue

It's not nice to provoke snorts of stifled laughter during working hours.

81: McCain looked pretty good till he hit the South Carolina firewall. It wasn't the "business community" that killed him.

Huh? I didn't say that. I said the Republican establishment and what you wrote is entirely consistent. What do you think the South Carolina 'firewall' was?

McCain's problem is that a big chunk of the GOP thinks he's a turncoat. He's the GOP Lieberman in their eyes and won't ever get the nomination of that party. Generally, there has been some establishment figure lined up for the nomination every four years. This year nobody really fits the bill, and even the evangelicals are split between the candidates.

84 to 81

The phrase is marketing.

Agreed. We differ about the intended target audience.

The motivating impulse (a) was there before and (b) is a tip of hat towards Southern Conservatives and the suburbans who love them.

Name me a single sitting GOP Senator or Congressman from the states of the old Confederacy that you would characterize as a "compassionate conservative". Just one!

Compare Bush '00 rhetoric to Huckabee's rhetoric.

Huckabee does the evangelical hat-tip thing much more authentically than Bush...and yet, leading evangelicals have been reluctant to rally around him, even after Brownback dropped out. Wonder why that is? There is at least some evidence that Huckabee walked the walk on compassionate conservatism as a governor. With Bush it was pure artifice.

A potential source of trouble for Romney:

In the heat of the Missouri "Mormon War" of 1838, Joseph Smith made the following claim, "I will be to this generation a second Mohammed, whose motto in treating for peace was 'the Alcoran [Koran] or the Sword.' So shall it eventually be with us--'Joseph Smith or the Sword!

This report seems like good news - not because of what it says about Iran's intentions, but what it says about U.S. intentions.

Could be that W is thinking about his place in history, and aspires to upgrade to "harmless nonentity" after all. Too late, of course, but still ...

Name me a single sitting GOP Senator or Congressman from the states of the old Confederacy that you would characterize as a "compassionate conservative".

Walter Jones.

As I understand, the low-tax big-money conservatives don't like Huckabee because he's somewhat for real, and the leaders of the wacko Christians realize that they can't win without the money people. (In addition to being on the take themselves, of course.)

I agree with 87. "Compassionate" makes "conservative" sound better in the general election, but not in the primary.

90: Also the governor of Florida.

omg muslim mormon illegal terrorist criminal aliens!

91: yes. Dobson and the Christian Coalition, not actually being any more interested in Christianity or compassion than Giuliani is, are wondering just how much they can do to work against people like Huckabee before they finally lose the support of actual Christian people.

Walter Jones

OK, I'm going to concede that one.

Of course, he was a Democrat until 1994...

95: But now he's outraged by Chappaquiddick.

Of course, he was a Democrat until 1994.

There is that, yes.

88. If this movie didn't kill Romney's chances, an obscure quote won't

http://www.boxofficemojo.com/reviews/?id=2375

Doesn't the Mormon question mainly come down to the multiple wives issue? Growing up in the East, it is all I knew about them.

Ralph Reed got one batch of anti-gambling Christians to (in effect, and unknowingly) support one bunch of gamblers against a competing bunch. It may have ended Reed's electoral career, but I don't know if there was fallout beyond that.

Don't want to say it, but conservative Christians don't seem to be very smart.

[OK, I wanted very badly to say it.]

Totally off-topic, and I'm sure this is far from a novel observation, but remember when the football Bowl Games had nice generic agriculture names that you could remember? I just scanned down the list and I'm confused by (just for starters) the San Diego County Credit Union Poinsettia Bowl, the Papajohns.com Bowl, the Bell Helicopter Armed Forces Bowl, the Meineke Car Care Bowl, and the Gaylord Hotels Music City Bowl.

Surely this is the best argument for a playoff system.

conservative Christians don't seem to be very smart.

If they were very smart, they wouldn't be conservative Christians, you big tautologist, you.

The Mormons claim the BoM as a revelation on a level with the Bible, and they claim Joseph Smith as a prophet on the level with Jesus. Any sect who makes these claims is religiously outside the pale. The Rev. Moon has a similar problem.

Political Christian leaders are more cynical than anyone here.

Gotta keep the Gaylord Bowl. The others … meh.

Any sect who makes these claims is religiously outside the pale.

Outside the pale of Chritianity, so to speak, like lost Mr Blake. But if you're Jewish, Christianity and Islam must look much the same way. You can't pick one set of beliefs as a gold standard to measure others by.

I've stayed in a Gaylord hotel for work. Very weird experience. It had a decorative canyon landscape in a giant atrium, including an unexpected pit of flames as you wandered through it.

Gotta keep the Gaylord Bowl.

But that one is particularly confusing!

an unexpected pit of flames

I hear the atheists are always surprised when they end up in the pit of flames.

Couldn't Gaylord Hotels have named the Armed Forces Bowl?

You can't pick one set of beliefs as a gold standard to measure others by.

Could you explain that to the rest of the Christian demographic for me? Most of them are already very proud of themselves for not being very anti-Semitic.

To Jews, Jesus had it coming to him, but political Christians and Jews generally avoid theology discussions. Even so, a Jewish Prez candidate would lose a significant proportion of the demented Armageddon Christian vote.

a Jewish Prez candidate would lose a significant proportion of the demented Armageddon Christian vote.

Fixed that for you.

You can't pick one set of beliefs as a gold standard to measure others by.

Well, sure. "One man's theology is another man's belly laugh" and all that. But for a goodly portion of the U.S. electorate, there is one and only one gold standard, and that's the Holy Word of our Lord Jesus Christ(TM).

The alliance of convenience between culturally conservative Mormons and culturally conservative Christians is a fragile one, and relies to a great degree on the unwashed masses not thinking too hard about the theological differences between them. (The same is true, to a much lesser extent, of the rapprochement between conservative protestants and conservative Roman Catholics.) If Romney is nominated, this stuff is going to get a lot of play.

I suspect that most loyal christian right foot soldiers will suck it up in the end (much as I would suck it up and vote for a sexist, homophobe Democrat if need be), but if the enthusiasm of the marginal voter is wanting, it could be affect the outcome.

The Rose Bowl, being the Grandaddy, is the only bowl game not to heed Mammon's call. They tastefully require the sponsor to put their name after, ie the Rose Bowl sponsored by Citi, as opposed to the Tostitos Fiesta Bowl.

The plan is to stall the catastrophe to the next administration. So GWB could go down as Coolidge followed by a Hoover followed by an FDR or a Hitler.
If Republicans win they could just skip a step. The Republicans know exactly what they want, which is crisis politics with the Solid South advantage, 1933 repeated from the other side. They may have mismanaged the timing.

I am torn between this election being important or not. A Democrat who does not damage the brand by presiding over a lost war & depression will need massive amounts of help to do an FDR without the landslide majority. Or help in getting that landslide.

When I talk about "revolution" this is partly what I mean. The New Deal & Great Society were not achieved entirely peacefully or without direct action. I think we will start to see the contours within months, as the state & municipal finances collapse. Get ready to push left, however you are able.

Get ready to push left, however you are able.

But not too far left, Bob. You want to keep the military in the barracks, not out in counter- revolution.

See, the thing about demented conservative Christians is that they care intensely about fine points of theology. Unbelievable but true. The political demented conservative Christians have to work very hard to convince their suckers to slack on the theological criteria.

Theologically, the Moonies, Christian Scientists, and Mormons are gimmes. Cults. Adventists and Jehovah Witnesses came from the same background as fundamentalists, but they strayed badly. Gimmes. (JWs don't vote anyway). Unitarians and Quakers count as secular, though Quakers theology is OK, just not their practice. And very few accept the Orthodox or the Catholics. And Episcopalianss and Lutherans are too lax. Gimmes.

Only when you get to the Methodists and Presbyterians, do you have a biit of uncertainty. Maybe some of them are Christians after all.

Moreover, if it were Harry Reid running for president, you can be quite certain you'd be hearing plenty about the nuttier doctrines of the LDS and whether or not he believes them. I mean, if they took out after Obama over the vanilla UCC...

I tried really, really hard and finally managed to dredge up a bit of genuine interest in the outcome of the local Big Game over the weekend. As I told my dad, it's kind of cool when everybody's pulling together over something even when the something is kind of silly. But I still hate the whole college football thing with some passion.

I don't pay any attention to college football because UNC's football program has sucked for so long.

Randy Moss needs three touchdowns a game to shut up the Jerry Rice claque. Unfortunately the stupid Patriots don't realize that they're just Moss's backup group. They selfishly want to win stupid football games. It's really doable.

He only needs a touchdown per game plus two more to break Rice's record, but the Frisco loonies will ant to asterisk it since Rice got his record in only twelve games.

"But not too far left, Bob. You want to keep the military in the barracks, not out in counter- revolution."

I know my limitations and am no Leninist. I am in the back of the crowd pushing, not from cowardice but from humility. I don't determine what happens in fromt or the direction it goes.

Oh, did I mention I read Victor Davis Hanson on Hoplite battles? Deep back ranks were the key, pushing, pushing, not allowing the front warriors to ever retreat. The back ranks didn't really see the combat, so kept their idealism.

Umm, never mind. Banned for analogy.

I've stayed in a Gaylord hotel for work. Very weird experience. It had a decorative canyon landscape in a giant atrium, including an unexpected pit of flames as you wandered through it.

Being at Gaylord Opryland Hotel reminded me of Hunter Thompsons's line on Circus Circus back in the day: The Circus-Circus is what the whole hep world would be doing Saturday night if the Nazis had won the war. Only the Gaylord would be where the un-hep world would be. (Not talking about the Grand Ole Opry itself ... just Opryland.) Truly a monstrosity - the depraved ersatz soul of consumerist America unashamedly on public display.

he Mongols also kept their most reliable troops in the rear as (among other things) battle police to keep the front ranks in line. In the extreme case the front line was unarmed enemy civilians who were used as human haystacks to catch arrows with.

123. Stalin used a similar approach.

Oops, 122 was me. Or actually the "Marriott Hotels comment 122" was me. Earn money in your spare time promoting and trashing products on blogs.

I claim, re: 53, that no event staged for a journalist by a Republican party operative has any information value whatsoever. Especially when it's Frank Luntz pulling one over on Joe Klein. Christ, I'd be more impressed if Luntz invited any random 5 year old.

If the economy goes south by the election (which I think is incredibly likely), then George Bush's incredible incompetence is permanently seared into the American psyche.

116: I may be misreading, but are you saying "gimme" is a fundo synonym for "wrong sect"?

No, just that the hardcore fundamentalists don't have to sit and think about these groups. Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, Unitarians, Catholics, Orthodox and almost all Lutherans and Episcopalians are just plain not Christians. It's a no-brainer.

Presbyterians and Methodists -- maybe some of them are Christians.

Do Fundamentalists use the term Orthodox? They could just as well pin on a badge on themselves saying Heretic

(And Catholics are Orthodox. There's Eastern Orthodox and Western Orthodox.)

No, "orthodox" was my shorthand. They probably say "the Greek Church" or something like that.

Lutherans claim to be Catholic -- the ones everyone else calls Catholics are called "Roman Catholics".

You can't pick one set of beliefs as a gold standard to measure others by.

I think I stand with Chester on this one. If we do not maintain the gold standard in finance, we cannot maintain it in morality. Free silver is the first step towards free love.

the ones everyone else calls Catholics are called "Roman Catholics"

Is "Papists" no longer used? (Joking, but also genuinely ignorant.) (Shit, I think I just wrote my own epitaph.)

Do Fundamentalists use the term Orthodox?

IME experience they seem to make a mostly binary distinction between "Christians" and all others, with believers like themselves being true Christians, and everyone else being non-Christians or pretend Christians. To the extent that they are knowlegeable about finer theological distinctions, it tends to be the distinctions between their kind and everyone else; the filioque controversy couldn't interest them less.

When they are among their own kind, you still hear the old anti-catholic tropes (the doctrine of transsubstantiation is tantamount to endorsing cannibalism, depictions of Christ on the cross are idolatrous, veneration of the Virgin Mary violates the first commandment, etc.), but that sort of thing has been downplayed more recently, the better to cement the marriage of convenience among cultural conservatives of various confessions.

Name me a single sitting GOP Senator or Congressman from the states of the old Confederacy that you would characterize as a "compassionate conservative". Just one!

All of them. You're getting hung up on "compassionate." Read "Federal Teat." The money's just getting allocated a little differently these days.

All of them.

Huffing paint thinner again, are we?

depictions of Christ on the cross are idolatrous

Huh, I've never heard that and am not sure how the argument would run. I've heard opposition to depictions of Christ on the cross based on the fact it presents Christ as dead or dying, rather than living and resurrected; that if we're going to focus on the cross as a symbol it ought to be an empty cross, since we worship a resurrected and not a crucified god; Jesus is now a bad motherfucker sitting at God's right hand dressed in purple robes and in full glory, not some dying body on a cross, yadda yadda yadda.

"Roman Catholic" is respectful but allows wiggle room for Lutherans. Papists is not only insulting but archaic and quaint.

Catholics recognbnize a number of Eastern Churches with distinctive rites, and I believe that the term "Roman Catholic" is used specifically to designate the majority rite. Ask IA.

Here in Wobegon Catholics and Lutherans are permitted to attend one anothers' services, but not communion I don't think. My mother attended to the Catholic Church a few times and just loved the priest.

...not only insulting but archaic and quaint.

What's not to like?

since we worship a resurrected and not a crucified god

Bingo! The phrasing about how the empty cross symbolizes the resurrection is the version for public consumption, but you also hear the stronger form with the invidious comparison to Catholics praying to a representation of a man. The trope about Catholics being idolatrous goes back to Luther. It is of a piece with protestant opposition to relics and excessive ornamentation of churches.

The Catholic reply to the arguments mentioned in 136 and 139, by the way, is that Protestants are sitzpinklers who won't acknowledge the suffering essential to the meaning of the resurrection.

140: Yeah, whatever, you hell-bound idolator.

Jesus is now a bad motherfucker sitting at God's right hand dressed in purple robes and in full glory, not some dying body on a cross, yadda yadda yadda.

Wow. Way to hurdle the stumbling block of the Resurrection, dude, "which the believer in Christ must learn to live with in one way or another."

The trope about Catholics being idolatrous goes back to Luther. It is of a piece with protestant opposition to relics and excessive ornamentation of churches.

Well aware of all that. Just mostly've heard it applied it the idols of Mary and the saints and all that. IME experience most protestants would regard the cross-with-body as sort or ill-advised, in poor taste and perhaps potentially dangerous, but--unlike a statue of Mary--not ipso facto idolatry.

you hell-bound idolator

Yeah, if you're going to hell you really ought to shoot for a more worthwhile sin.

Destroyer's basically right, though I'd add that Catholics basically don't give a shit about the finer points of representation as far the cross is concerned (in churches, that is; some found that scene from The Exorcist a little upsetting).

Basically.

Catholics basically don't give a shit about the finer points

This is generally correct. My parents were among the exceptional Catholics. (We had this lovely face hanging at the top of the stairs.)

most protestants would regard the cross-with-body as sort or ill-advised, in poor taste and perhaps potentially dangerous, but--unlike a statue of Mary--not ipso facto idolatry

That well could be right. I honestly don't know how widespread that particular belief it. But I have encountered a non-trivial number of protestants who believe that, so unless my sample is seriously skewed, the meme is out there. Keep in mind I'm not talking about your garden variety, ecumenically inclined "mainline denomination" here.

not some dying body on a cross

I was amazed at how Byzantine St Mark's was when I first saw it. Cimabue depicts christ on the cross in 1270 in nearby Arezzo; is there a way to look at where and when christ on the cross started appearing?

By Martin Luther's time, Bavarian and Czech religious art was gory like unto horror movies. Looking at that stuff, I can see where you'd find full color and large as life tactless.

Also (this should have been in the "kids say the darndest things" thread): A friend with a nephew at a Catholic school takes one of the nephew's non-Catholic pals for a tour of the place. The kid (8-9 years old) spots a cross complete with the crucified Christ and says, Whoa! What happened to that guy!? Nephew says, oh, you see him all over the place around here.

Also also: a Jewish guy I know is married to a Methodist who, the first time their son saw the image, explained, "Daddy's people did that." The guy was laughing uproariously when he told me about it, so I guess it's somehow not as twisted as it sounds.

The guy was laughing uproariously when he told me about it, so I guess it's somehow not as twisted as it sounds.

No, it is, but it's still funny as hell.

151. My agnostic-Deist ass makes me, as far as I can tell, the most religious member of my immediate family. My sister tells the story of one of her unbelievably smart kids watching TV and seeing someone bleeding from the hands and saying "that's stigmata, right? Like that guy on the cross, what's his name again?"

147: We have that portrait framed sitting on the desk immediately behind the chair I'm sitting on.

Fred Thompson apparently belongs to the Church of Me.

The North Korean football team in 1966 famously knocked out the Italians in one of the biggest World Cup upsets. Since they hadn't booked accommodation for the next round, they ended up staying in the rooms booked by the Italian team, in a Liverpool seminary. All the crucifixes on the walls scared the bejeez out of them.