Look, I'm sorry that I kicked your ass at TF2. But couldn't we just try to work it out? Think of the Hibernoranian grandchildren your mom dreams of.

Honesty?

And oh dear god this is what I'm afraid of. Methinks, actually meknows, that I can weird people out when I get really drunk and I'll do stupid stuff, and I'm hoping I didn't do that with/to the girl I am possibly dating right now. Cause she seems awesome, and I was very drunk on Saturday.

Claim syphilis. And not the good kind.

Do you mean elegant, or do you mean kind? For elegance, spats, a cummerbund, and a walking stick should get you there. For kindness, it's an intrinsically sort of unpleasant thing to say -- I don't think there's much better than just saying it.

Speaking of TF2, I figure that by the time I get home tonight, my download from Steam may actually have finished. Is the server gonna be up?

Sure, we can schedule a time.

i once sent a girl a post-card from the recruiting office of the french foreign legion.

adieu, ma cherie!

You can't really weasel out of the fact that you are rejecting someone. There's a long way between `you're psychotic and I'm asking for a restraining order' and `this just isn't working for me'. In the end though, you're saying they are something-enough for you (even if you're not sure what that is).

Best luck is when they're thinking the same thing.

I'll put up a TF2 post later today. But I'm through with that Gonerill. Through!

The very fact, ogged, that you talk of having something to "deal with" already shows that the situation described in the post can't possibly be that different from anything going on in your life.

Best luck is when they're thinking the same thing.

I have fond memories of dumping a highschool boyfriend who had previously been a very good friend, and realizing halfway through the process of breaking it to him that he was dumping me. We still had a somewhat distant month or two, but after that got right back to being good friends.

I know it's inherently unpleasant, and I don't recognize this elegant vs. kind distinction the lawyer makes upthread. I'm wondering what's worked well for you.

For what it's worth, I think the superficially kind stuff really isn't.

You could say:

`I'm not ready for a real relationship yet, after X'
`My life is kind of crazy right now and it wouldn't be fair to you'
`I really like you, but...'
etc. etc. ad nauseum

but really all of that translates into `If I was into you enough I would figure out how to make this work. But I'm not'.

Man, tough situation. It would be even worse if you were almost sure to run into this person again, maybe even on a regular basis. That would totally suck.

I think the watchword is "kind honesty." You have to get the information out there. Bonus advice: don't be like me, i.e., don't try to make it somehow into good news that should make the person happy, thus making a complete fool of yourself.

"I've decided to go in a different direction with the significant other position."

I'm wondering what's worked well for you.

"This doesn't look like it's working out." Keep it short, no drawn-out explanations or ponderous analysis of "what went wrong". Don't feign sadness.

I don't have any generalizable good breakup experience, but there's probably a reason why "It's not you, it's me" is a cliche. Done gracefully and honestly (like with some explanation of what's wrong with you that makes you unable to properly appreciate the dumpee), it seems like the sort of thing that might be less unpleasant than other alternatives.

Dude, I'm not trying to dump the lifeguard. This just seems like a handy tool to have in the toolbox.

Ogged, in the above I speak from too much experience.

You know what's wierd and probably psychologically revealing? In mumble-mumble-lots times, I've only been the dumpee once or twice. I've had quite a few mutual drift off and stop hanging out things. I must really have had commitment issues or something.

I like that line from Finding Nemo: "No, no, I really like you ... it's because I like you that I don't want to be with you ... It's a complicated emotion."

LB, you're killing me. Two dates doesn't call for a justification. "I just don't want to" is what it comes down to and everyone knows it. Not every cessation of sexual program activities is related to the dumping party's pathologies.

LB and Matt F seem to offer the best advice. In particular, "It's not you" is a standby for a reason, and, often enough, accurate even if you don't recognize it at the time.

Be like Switzerland: Neutral.

Or...

you could do it via facebook perhaps.

How about telling them you'll be out of town over the weekend and then running into them in a bar on Saturday night? That worked for me.

Having any kind of relationship conversation after just "one or two dates" is kind of gratuitous, no? That early in the game, the most easy, graceful and merciful way is simply to taper off contact. Return her calls, but slowly; keep conversations superficial and short; and decline all invitations graciously and with plausible but transparent excuses.

Dude, I'm not trying to dump the lifeguard

Meaning I presume you already dumped the lifeguard, but didn't do it well so wants advice for next time.

don't be like me, i.e., don't try to make it somehow into good news that should make the person happy, thus making a complete fool of yourself.

I always do this. "I'm doing you a favor, really! I'm a terrible person to date! You'll thank me later for ending this!"

21: I would have appreciated more that a plain e-mail with a subject heading "It's over" nonetheless, Labs.

17: that's what I was leery of in 13.

By all means, don't be an asshole. But pretending something out of your control is forcing it, or the `it's not you, it's me' trite nonsense is disrespectful.

I think you can't really lose by being honest and respectful; for that matter kind as the situation allows.

"I've decided to go in a different direction with the significant other position."

Sweet.

I like you as a friend. I think we should see other people. I love you but I'm not in love with you. I don't want to kill you but I will. I'm looking for something with that 'new girlfriend' smell. Your racist opinions have ceased to be amusingly quaint. I have, actuarially speaking, only about 50 years left and it wouldn't be fair to give you less than all the time you deserve. The only lady in my life is the good ship Nautilus.

24--
did someone say 'classy'?

'I don't think we're a match' has been used with me and didn't make me feel awkward or hurt.

I always do this. "I'm doing you a favor, really! I'm a terrible person to date! You'll thank me later for ending this!"

"If we continued dating we'd only grow closer and then get married and have a few kids but then things would get rough and we'd try to patch it up but it wouldn't work out and we'd have to get a divorce, and I'm just not ready to put you and the kids through a divorce right now."

25: I think I'd find that annoyingly passive-aggressive. Why not just say you aren't interested?

21: Well, the question's phrased as if it did require an explanation, rather than just drifting off into space. For literally two dates, what I'd actually probably do is not call, and not make future plans, and only get into it in response to questions if any. But once you're doing something active, "I've always had an irrational aversion to sopranos" seems kinder than "Your voice could cut glass, and not in a good way."

What we have on our hands here is a dead shark.

'I don't think we're a match' has been used with me and didn't make me feel awkward or hurt.

That's actually pretty good.

I always do this. "I'm doing you a favor, really! I'm a terrible person to date! You'll thank me later for ending this!"

Yeah, this is my default. Sincere, too. But I don't think it's good.

33: Yeah. If we're talking a couple of dates, that's what you two were presumeably trying to figure out, right?

It's a different story if you are talking about something long term that you've both invested in.

"I don't think we're a match. Please don't ask why—the fact that you think a further explanation is required merely shows that you are in the grip of a false picture of interpersonal relations. You and I aren't meant for each other is a grammatical statement, and is partially definitive of who we are."

Bave Dee and I should date, then dump each other. My tactic will be to try to talk him into agreeing that it's for the best. "Ok? I mean, you see my point? Even though this isn't the kind of thing that calls for coming to consensus?"

24 is awesome.

After one or two dates? Chances are if you're not feeling it, she's not either, and you could probably get away with 25. But something like 13 or something kind-but-more-honest. Either way, no one's going to be horribly crushed here.

Remember Tyler Cowen's opinion that there's always reciprocity in feelings, and invariably you feel the same way about someone that he or she feels about you? Something like that? I tend to think that's right for reasons behind breakups. In my experience, it's best not to obfuscate reasons, except for the most superficial or essential ones, because the real reasons for a breakup are telling in all sorts of ways that aren't vocalized, and polite or reasonable justification is only going to be painful data to add to the accurately perceived truth. I wouldn't advise telling someone that she's not sexy or smart enough for a longterm relationship, though if something like this is the reason for the breakup, it's hard to know what to say (since the truth will be inferred, if not totally honestly addressed). Probably the standard language is best: This isn't working out, I want to remain friends or friendly, I wish you good luck.

I'm not going to be happy dating you.

Announce it at a press conference. She'll find out when the reporters call her for a quote.

Invite her to your wedding.

If she accepts, tell her a month later that it's been called off.

You could always try inviting the other person to join your religious cult and then, upon refusal, unload both barrels of offended anger. Worked like a charm on me.

Someone I know rather well once got the runaround described in 25 and went a bit bonkers stalking the other person, trying to understand what happened. Eventually my friend had to be sat down and dumped more directly, but then everything was fine. Whenever possible, the dump direct is going to turn out better.

Is "the dump direct" like "the cut direct"?

Goodbye, no use leading with our chins, this is where our story ends,
Never lovers ever friends.
Goodbye, let our hearts call it a day, but before you walk away,
I sincerely want to say.

I wish you bluebirds in the spring, to give your heart a song to sing,
And then a kiss, but more than this, I wish you love.

That's what Frank would say.

Remember Tyler Cowen's opinion that there's always reciprocity in feelings, and invariably you feel the same way about someone that he or she feels about you?

Since this is not true, 25 doesn't work.

If I have a crush on somebody it's almost impossible to conceive how she might not have at least 20% as much of a crush on me. It's cosmically unbalanced. But usually true.

41 is awesome, except I get so few phone numbers from Wittgensteinians these days.

Breaking off communications is mean. So is giving reasons. I want to be in the FL, Bave Dee dumping party!

Tell her you can't spend any time with her this weekend because you have to find a new place to live "thanks to that damn Meagan's Law."

Ogged, you're better off without us. Really.

Okay. You could also cut out one of their kidneys while they're sleeping and leave them in a bathtub full of ice cubes, with a note that says, "I don't need you anymore."

Have a condom fall out of your pocket when you're talking to her about the relationship. When she notices, tell her, "Oh, that's not for you."

I always do this. "I'm doing you a favor, really! I'm a terrible person to date! You'll thank me later for ending this!"

Yeah, this is my default. Sincere, too. But I don't think it's good.

Isn't this Straight Outta Seinfeld?

You could also cut out one one third of one of their kidneys

Fixed.

54: giving honest reasons `I don't think we're a good match' isn't mean. Giving an analysis of why you think so (even if asked) probably is. Some of it is neutral, but hard to put that way.

Just as a data point, I remember some bad breakups, but I don't remember anything that ended after a couple of dates as a breakup as much as something that was tried and didn't work out.

59: you're finally grasping this blog's raison d'etre.

Blogs are the sitcoms of the 21st century.

Tell her you're at the age when you're looking for a woman with "birthing hips."

63: For Ogged to reveal his self-loathing vis-a-vis his Seinfeldianisms?

"thanks to that damn Meagan's Law."

You're killing me today.

How about telling them you'll be out of town over the weekend and then running into them in a bar on Saturday night? That worked for me.

I did a version of that; declined an invitation to go out with the vague excuse that I had other plans, then ran into her and her friends while I was on a date with someone else (have I mentioned that I used to be* something of an asshole?).

Poetic justice was dished out in grand fashion, however, for this unfortunate encounter took place at a screening of the Rocky Horror Picture Show, and she and her friends were sitting in the row directly behind me. I got covered in water, toast, popcorn, and whatever the hell else people throw at these events.

* Before someone re-posts that sentence with "used to be" replaced by "am": that fruit is just too low. In any event, going out with someone else was permissible under the ground rules of our relationship.

So "I don't think we're a good match" is the thread's advice?

One of the few times I've managed to break up with someone directly, I'm afraid that I went with the "I've met somebody else" line. I doubt that's a good tactic in most cases: the guy I was breaking up with didn't really mind, but then, it turned out that he was still obsessed with a previous girlfriend towards whom he'd behaved like a psycho, so I was okay with his not being so into me.

"My imaginary friends think you'll come between me and the blog. Sorry."

A line once used on me:"I just can't date four guys at the same time."

"I don't think we're a good match, because you suck" should be a bit more decisive.

Speaking of TF2, I figure that by the time I get home tonight, my download from Steam may actually have finished. Is the server gonna be up?

OMG. Hate you, Gonerill.

68: In the case of a couple dates, yes.

62 is exactly right.

Take a lesson from the master.

Explain you've converted to Sincerism. The rest will come naturally.

I don't think we're a good match, because your band sucks

Right?

62 is exactly right

Yes it is.

Is it even worth commenting in this thread? Will I come back in an hour or two, only to find that the entire post has been unposted?

Embrace the moment, Adjunct.

After one or two dates is easy. Hell, just stop calling if you have to. Kind of rude, but IME accepted practice in the dating jungle.

Here's the tough question. Assume you've already been entangled with someone for a few weeks, slept with them, etc. How do you reject them romantically at that point and still keep them as a friend? Is it impossible?

20: Another great Finding Nemo line: "Fish gotta swim, birds gotta eat."

How do you reject them romantically at that point and still keep them as a friend? Is it impossible?

in that case, i think the rejectee gets to decide whether or not they want to stay friends. i've found that one can often blame the decision not to date on unresolved ex issues, the unresolvedness of which only became apparent when dating the current dumpee.

Assume you've already been entangled with someone for a few weeks, slept with them, etc. How do you reject them romantically at that point and still keep them as a friend?

The tendency of women, presumably instilled and enforced by our sexist society, to be accommodating and well-behaved, even in the face of egregious insult and injury, is a good place to start.

Uh, I hear.

Your Nostrils Look Funny And My Mommy Hates You

thinly-veiled racism.

This is one of those situations where I've learned that what I prefer (bluntness) is not necessarily what other people prefer. Therefore I have made it a point to send a very short "I really appreciate your honesty, and I wish you all the best" e-mails to people who say "It's just not a match for me," or "The chemistry isn't there for me," or whatever.*

I think just abandoning contact is extremely rude, even if it's been only one date. It's basic courtesy. I wouldn't do it to a business contact or an acquaintance; why would I do it to someone I bothered enough about to spend three hours of my life with? (The exception is if you've had an extremely mutually clear "kismissal" moment on the date itself; no need to make the subtext any more explicit in that case.)

Hmm, just 1 or 2 dates. I like you, I'm just not in like with you.

Is there an elegant way to tell someone after one or two dates that you don't want to see them again?

"the sex is awful."

The tendency of women, presumably instilled and enforced by our sexist society, to be accommodating and well-behaved, even in the face of egregious insult and injury

So breaking up once you've slept with someone is automatically egregious insult and injury? Is that true only when men do it? Or are we equal opportunity here?

Also, at least in my experience women are no more accomodating than men when confronted with egregious insult, BTW. But maybe that's just who I hang out with.

87 continued:

*To me, these are in the middle of the bluntness scale -- more honest than "Work is really busy right now" or "I'm moving to Wales," less honest than "You're just too tall."

keep them as a friend

Per 84, I think that kind of depends on whether the dumpee wants you as a friend. Wm Henry is right that people can be guilted or manipulated into staying friends, but IME that unusually results in a whole lot of hurt feelings. (Because the dumpee didn't really want to be your friend, she wanted to be your girlfriend. And that's not going to change as you continue to rely on her for support and entertainment and affirmation, while showering your romantic attentions elsewhere.)

It's easiest to manage if: a) both parties want out of the romantic relationship, and b) you have a common interest that gives structure to a continuing friendship. Otherwise, it's way too easy for the dumpee to settle for friendship-breadcrumbs and quickly grow resentful.

The very fact, ogged, that you talk of having something to "deal with" already shows that the situation described in the post can't possibly be that different from anything going on in your life.

Am I to infer, Ben, that in your own life you leave issues that need to be "dealt with" to the side, without confronting them with your full attention and initiative?

92: Ah, I see the point now. Resentful friendship-breadcrumbs is no good, and neither is guilt or manipulation. That's not what I was getting at. I've been on the other end of things too, and it's often true that you just have to absent yourself from an ex, even if it's just been a brief affair.

But of course the implication of agency in the question "how do you keep someone as a friend" would lead one to think some kind of manipulation is involved. Really, there's nothing you can do, it will work or it won't. You put it well, Witt. Both parties want out (or a better way to put it: neither party had invested big romantic hopes) and there is a genuine underlying friendship based on common interests. That's as good a guide as you'll get.

93: I'm not really sure how that inference would go, actually.

83: The best Finding Nemo line is "Mine." As long as you're willing to say it repeatedly in your best seagull-voice you can both be possessive about something and mock yourself for being possessive.

Stale old joke option.
Subject of E-mail to distribution list: "Pls rply if u are dating me"
Text of e-mail: "Not so fast xxx@foobar.net"

Speaking of inferring things, does anyone else suspect a bit of subconscious self-revelation Ogged's statement to the imagined girlfriend: "My Mommy Hates You"?

"what's wrong with my nostrils?
nothing wrong with my nostrils!
i am actually bijin
in other words, it's just historical issues and you hate to be conquered again,
do you?"

i am actually bijin

You mean the river dolphins?

Then your nostril would be on the top of your head.

100
i suggest you to google it, turn to wiki , whatever
for the meaning of the word
and would you please remember somewhere somehow
that one is not talking to you, but to someone else

We're all talking to everyone.

(Severing communication doesn't count.)

Oh, never mind then...

~

Actually, I can't say that worked *well* for me, but it worked pretty fucking often. I realize it is a total asshole move (see - told ya), but it was actually borne out of a deep seated desire not to hurt the other person's feelings - and I never knew how to end it without doing so.

Then I had a bit of an epiphany when a woman emailed me a breakup after the 3d date, where it seemed like she had really given it a lot of thought, and said she really appreciated getting to know me, and as much as she enjoyed her time she said also thought we were just two very different people. It was absolutely true. More importantly it seems entirely inoffensive.

I now realize you can say that to *anyone*. Of course we are two totally different people! *Everyone* is (are?) two totally different people! (Speaking rationally, obviously, it doesn't necessarily *explain* why you can't continue to see each other).

But at the end of the day, as I get older (and more tired of dating) I've realized it doesn't matter *why* one of the two people is no longer interested. Once one of the 2 people in a relationship has decided its over, it *is* over. Even if it doesn't make sense to the other person. There's no point arguing, other than to embarrass yourself (to probe deeper is simply to invite a more polite - or not - way of saying "it isn't me, it's you"). All you can say is "thank you - best wishes to you in your life".

After 1 or 2 dates, this should be a sinch. I really don't think either person is *entitled* to much more than an acknowledgment that it is over, as opposed to a full throated explanation. Indeed to do much more than acknowledge it is over is to needlessly empower the relationship with more meaning than it obviously had.

another vote for "not a match" or similar.

if it's a longer thing, you're likely to be asked for a reason & something about how it's me or something vague about a way in which you're incompatible seems preferable to: "you're ugly & not good in bed" or the like. But after a couple dates, an explanation doesn't even really seem necessary.

I would also vote against bringing your mommy along on the first or second date.

Once upon a time, the canonical usage was, "I don't think we're destined for long-term greatness."

You were who I thought you were!

106: Who?

"Nothing good will come of it, only remorse, hatred, scandal, and two children whose characters are monstrous."

107: Da Bears.

This is good post game analysis.

It is awful breakup advice.

You were who I thought you were!

Also awesome. Dennis Green has done us all a great service.

who?

i suggest you to google it, turn to wiki , whatever
for the meaning of my name

Sorry, thought you were Conrad Black.

Dating? You want to talk dating? We gotta make it to second base/be compatible/be the same species? Dating?!

Dating isn't everything. It's the only thing.

2: Er, uh, you weren't drinking Absolut and 7-up, were you...?

I've only ever done this once [we'd been going out about a month]. I think I sucked at it, though.

"I just don't think it's working out, etc. We live in different cities and meeting up is really difficult [true], blah blah."*

She seemed to take it well, but I heard later she really didn't and I was still hearing stories about the aftermath several years later.

* I didn't mention the real reasons [her personal hygiene really left something to be desired, her flat was like an insect infested cesspit, she was a nice/funny/charming person but really not compatible with me, etc]

Oh shit, yeah, and there was a girl who lied to me about tons of stuff, and so after the first date I phoned her and said, 'look, I don't think this is going to work out' and she was really offended that I was bothered about the fact that most of her life story [and, most importantly her age] was made up.

One or two dates???

"I'm sorry, I'm just not feeling it." Or "I love hanging out with you, but I think we're more friend material than couple material"

Alternatively, just do something really obnoxious/gross, like pick your nose in front of her.

Hmm, 118 seems to be infected with some language/phrasing that is not my own. I need to purge that.

Or pick her nose, with those weird nostrils.

I "broke up" with a guy in college that I'd been seeing for maybe two weeks attempting the honest but kind approach: it's just not working out, our fundamental beliefs are just too far off, etc. I spent three weeks politely trying to keep explaining to him why it was I wasn't interested. I was so patient. And accomodating. And annoyed. My cat sensed this one day, strutted over and bit the guy, then curled up in my lap with a purr. He (the cat) had never bitten anyone before. Moral: (1) try to be kind, (2) if that doesn't work, get a protective pet.

(Actually, every breakup I've instigated has resulted in drawn out episodes of "but why?")

Sorry, thought you were Conrad Black.

Six and a half years for Lord Blackguard. Will Barbara Amiel stand by her man? I can't quite picture Lady Blackguard making visits to the conjugal trailer.

"I love hanging out with you, but I think we're more friend material than couple material"

I've been the "victim" of the flip side of this. After meeting for coffee I got a follow-up email from a woman who said she didn't really see a relationship with me, but that she might be interested in having sex.

I felt so used.

But then I realized it's a pretty ingenius way of letting someone down while ostensibly building them up.

Of course, it's easier coming from a girl. I think a guy saying this sounds a bit more sleazy/creepy.

I think a guy saying this sounds a bit more sleazy/creepy.

Sorry to add: of course this still does the trick (ie. breaking up), as long as you don't mind being thought of this way...

Six and a half years for Lord Blackguard

Hey, I like that. The satirical press in Canada refers to him as Lord Tubby of Black.

Will Barbara Amiel stand by her man? I can't quite picture Lady Blackguard making visits to the conjugal trailer.

I suppose it would be fun to craft *that* breakup speech:

"We just don't spend any time together anymore".

"All you ever do is play cards with the boys".

"You just seem so distant".

"I feel like there are walls between us".

(rinse, rather, repeat)

Having any kind of relationship conversation after just "one or two dates" is kind of gratuitous, no?

That's definitely my thought. If you haven't already slept together, swapped excessive amounts of spit, or weren't already friends/casual acquaintances, then won't a simple "Well. Let's do this again sometime" do? If you have had teh hot monkey sex already, then "I'm not prepared to take this any further" seems sufficient. "One or two dates" still falls within the window where little to no explanation needs to be given or expected (even less so if the monkey sex was in a bar or club).

Best way I was ever dumped? The ex-girlfriend who gave me a big bottle of Bushmills the evening she told me she didn't think it was going to work out between us. Apparently, the way out of a man's heart is through his liver.

A method actually used by me in college: "I think I'm gay."

You have to follow through with that kind of thing, though. It's all in the follow-through, really.

Ladies, heed 127.3.

There's a Penny Arcade strip on this, which states, in part:

"I like you, but I don't like you like you."

"What does that mean?"

"I don't like you."

128. "If you were a man, I'd shag you like a rug."

116: No. Gin and tonics, and then a whole host of other things.

130: lol

It reminds me of a line for which I will forever be indebted to my former father-in-law (an Italian who spoke poor English).

He was giving me grief about the house we were about to buy, and when I protested that he had said he liked the house, he replied, in his thick accent:

"I like...but no to buy".

That phrase has since served me very well over the years - and I suppose it can be applied to the dating/breakup context as well...

132: this has to do with the cat, doesn't it?

The satirical press in Canada refers to him as Lord Tubby of Black.

Ha! My dad calls him that.

My Lord and Lady have been reduced to two houses, no private jets, and a skeleton staff. A few years ago, Barbara Amiel was featured in Vogue magazine, for an article on how to look your best at 30, 40, 50, 60, and etc. Needless to say, most of the "looking your best" strategies involved ready access to obscene amounts of ready money. My Lady showed off her shoe closet, which was the size of most people's living rooms, and spoke of flying from London to Toronto every few weeks to get her hair cut.

135: Toronto is such a center of tonsorial excellence? I hadn't realized.

136: Well, I hadn't realized either, and I honestly doubt that it is. But who am I to set my (probably ill-formed and misinformed) impressions against the wit and wisdom of Lady Tubby?

136, 137: You clearly underestimate just how big our gay population is...

Maybe she meant London, Ontario.

138: as compared to, say, London?

There are gay people in London?

They actually say "London, England" in southern Ontario. Hilarious.

"Baby, I don't think this is going to work out. I'm moving to Toronto, IYKWIM."

140: London, Ontario - definitely.
~
But seriously - 2 separate issues. Cheap stereotype (re: styling) on my part aside, yes Toronto has a huge gay population - quite aside from the fact that I live near the gay epicentre.

Secondly, I obviously can't really compare Toronto to London in terms of coiffurial talent, but I get the sense that it's a big big deal here.

142: Hell, our London even has a Thames River(!)

Toronto the Good is actually sorta cool, in large part because of the gay population. Starched underwear crossed with Church Street is an interesting combination. And London, Ontario has a lot of trees.

Where's Emerson? He makes fun of us on a regular basis, but I suspect he secretly likes us.

134: This has nothing to do with the cat. The cat wasn't even present. This was a holiday party.

They actually say "London, England" in southern Ontario. Hilarious.

If the default London is the one in Ontario, then the other one requires the specifier. Nothing hilarious about it.

Yes, because it completely makes sense that the default London should be the podunk town in Ontario.

147: like I believe that.

149: B I'm going to go ahead and guess that in northeastern Georgia they talk about "Athens, Greece," too.

150: you can not believe what you want to not believe

Yes, because it completely makes sense that the default London should be the podunk town in Ontario.

If you live near London, Ontario, it is. It's not a podunk town, it's the tenth-largest metropolis in Canada.

Are you being condescending, or sarcastic?

152: I won't!

153: the chinese character for "sarcastic" is the same as the one for "condescending".

151: And if they do, it's hilarious.

You know there's a town in Mississippi called Philadelphia?

I know some folks who live in Athens, GA, and will ask them that very question.

CONDESCENSION OVERLOAD

(BRAIN EXPLODES WITH RAGE)

Are you guys being mean to B? Come here, Bster, lemme give you a hug and a noogie.

::Hugs Ogged, sticks tongue out at everyone else.::

159: not me man. I'm on B's side 100% tonight.

Lemme give you a hug and a noogie.

Is that what they call it now? I have been off the market for a while.

I even offered to get in a big, random blogfight with her if it'd make her evening reading more interesting.

Right before you told me I was reading too much into something. Asshole.

162: no Hoo-hah to noogie with the wooozle, Huggy?

164: you can never read too much into assholes; they're voracious like that.

Y'know, the simple solution here is for the locals to come up with some idiosyncratic pronunciation that will identify in a heartbeat any outsider who threatens to confuse LessFamous with BigCity. Iowa seems to be pretty good at this, although I'm blanking on specific examples. Maybe Massachusetts too.

It works within neighborhoods too, as in the folks who refer to "Mar-gar-ET Street" and look at you funny if you venture another pronunciation.

Versailles, KY, for instance. Or Papillion, NE. Both of which pronounce the "ll."

Maybe Massachusetts too.

People in the blessed Commonwealth don't accord "Springfield" or "Washington" an unusual pronunciation.

Why should Dallas, PA change its pronunciation? Dallas, TX is the one that sucks!

167: EsplanAYde in New Orleans.

I pronounce "Newcastle" "New'c'sle", to rhyme with "Fo'c'sle", but that's just because I'm strange.

Medina, MN is pronounced with a schwa for the 'e' and a long 'i'. It rhymes with Edina, see?

Out in the sticks of Mayo, Québec, they don't even say, "Mayo, Québec", they just say "Mayo", like they had never even heard of the original. Dumbass peasants, and that original Mayo is where they all originated. They never even learned to speak English until about 1975 or so. They learned French to faire du commerce, of course, but well into the 1960s, the priests still gave them their homilies in the original tongue.

There's an original "Mayo" somewhere?

174: yes, but what are their thoughts on Aïoli?

yes, but what are their thoughts on Aïoli?

Olive oil is a hair tonic.

Next question?

Versailles, KY, for instance.

Lol. I stayed in a b&b in Versailles, KY, once, but got lost in Lexington on my way there. I stopped in a 7-11 to ask for directions (ok, but only 'cause my gf made me), and the clerk looked at me with considerable perplexity as I tried to articulate where I needed to go...(my problem was that I was using the french pronunciation)...

When it finally dawned on her, she laughed, and laughed, and laughed, and said, in her best Kentucky twang: "You mean Versayles? Honey, you're in Kentucky now!"...and boy, did I feel stupid, because, obviously, the French had it all wrong all those centuries...

[that said, Lexington is an incredibly pretty area]

I live a block off the famous Devon Ave. That's d' VON, not DEV'n. Asilon would be amazed. About five blocks from here is Mozart Ave. Pronounced without any "t" sound at all, as if Moe's art. South of Lincoln Park is Goethe Street. Similar to Go thee, but with the theta unvoiced.

I just want to clarify: B apparently thinks that residents of Savannah should say things like, "I'm driving up to Athens, Georgia, to see a B-52s show," because to just call it "Athens" would be provincial.

Astonishing.

BTW, you should hear how certain southern Italians pronounce Neapolis. It's hilarious.

Isn't it true that there are a number of cities (e.g., L.A.) in the Southwest and California that have Spanish names with wholly Anglicized pronunciations?

We have a North Versailles here, pronounced with the L's, of course. I have never seen any evidence that there's a Versailles, PA, but there's definitely a North Versailles. Perhaps it's farther north than the one in France...no, it's about 8 latitudes farther south.

(is that how you say it? "latitudes"? 8 degrees of latitude? Is a latitude a unit?)

If a friend of mine was moving there, I'd say "he decided to take the job in LondonOnt." I'd say it as if it were all one word. If we were talking about where he watched the hockey game, 'London' would do.

"Flying from Toronto to London for a haircut" - I would specify London England, because that wouldn't be my first assumption, unless the hair belonged to Barbara Amiel or someone.

I do hear "Paris, France" a lot, from Americans too. Not sure why.

181: true; I used to work in "San Raffel" California. Shit, "Los Angeles" is a pretty damn anglicized pronunciation itself.

183: Ont, eh?

The weird thing was flying from London to Toronto (Canada) for a haircut.

183: No evidence of a South Versailles, or a Lower St. Clair, or a Mifflin.

185: the best haircuts are in Toronto, New South Wales. Or as my friend Bruce calls it, Toronto.

181: Then there are partial anglicizations like Vallejo, CA. The ll gets pronounced like an English l, but the j gets the h treatment.

Shit, "Los Angeles" is a pretty damn anglicized pronunciation itself.

Yup. But if the city is populated by anglos, it only makes sense. Much like you are the final authority on how your name is pronounced. Some of the streets in San Francisco go back and forth in my head ("Arguello" has no "ell" sound in it, "Guerrero" doesn't have rolled rs.).

I do hear "Paris, France" a lot, from Americans too. Not sure why.

Now might not be the best time to let B know we have a Paris, Ontario, too...

~

The weird thing was flying from London to Toronto (Canada) for a haircut.

Forget where you're flying to or from...how 'bout flying *anywhere* for a haircut?

There's a St. Clair, but it's near Pottsville.

The street with the same name as the city in 188 gets the same treatment.

189: Much like you are the final authority on how your name is pronounced.

"Zepho Tvet", thanks.

If I hear someone say "This weekend I'm gonna go visit my uncle in Washington", if it's someone who grew up around here I assume it's Washington, PA; if it's someone not from the area, I assume it's Washington, DC. This isn't that hard.

Yeah I mean I don't think it's necessarily provincial except that it implies that you have some sense of where you are located geographically at the present moment.

193: That's how I've been saying it all along. Whew.

183: Ont, eh?

Oh yeah. I'm too tired for the other 3 syllables. And Londonont is fun to say.
NOTL - people in Niagara-On-The -Lake call it by the acronym. They don't add the -ont suffix though, because they've had enough fun by then.

194: Except if it's someone from Washington; then they'd say "the District."*

Yeah, yeah, not if they were talking to out-of-towners.

NOTL - people in Niagara-On-The -Lake call it by the acronym.

Pronounced "Nottle", I assume?

For someone so clearly and obviously down with the gente, B sure does seem to enjoy sneering at the yokels.

199: You'd think, but no. Zepho can explain it.

Not to reverse-threadjack, but I just can't let this go:

won't a simple "Well. Let's do this again sometime" do?

No. No it will not, because it says the opposite of what you mean. And then the next poor schlub who actually *means* "Let's do this again sometime" is supposed to say...what?

If you don't want to see someone again, have the spine to either say so or bite your tongue. I've never understood what people find so difficult about refraining from the "Let's do this again sometime/I'll call you/I'll be in touch" bullshit.

Say what you mean. Lacking that, awkward silence at the end of a date can work wonders.

IT'S SO PRECIOUS THE WAY THEY THINK THEIR BETHLEHEM IS THE MOST IMPORTANT ONE, JUST BECAUSE IT'S THE MOST IMPORTANT TO THEM.

Goodnight all. Goodnight Grandma.

202: you're threadjacking a thread from like six months ago. No mean trick, for such briefestness!

203: Grams I've never known you better than I do right now.

Wait, just realized that the people I've heard who say "Paris, France" are in movies and plays (Our Town, ?, ) and I think that construction is written to signal 'yokel'. I may never have heard it in real life. Ok., goodnight.

My all time favorite is B'yoon-a Vista, Colorado. (That's the state, so it's RAHdoe, not the river in Austin that's RAYdoe). B'yoonie, rhymes with puny, for those who love it.

In Montana people like to add "Montana" when they mention their hometowns: not just "Helena," but "Helena Montana." Not because anyone would be confused, but I think it's because people from Montana like to say "Montana."

People from Pennsylvania describe where they're from as "[town], P.A." I wonder how many other states' denizens refer to the state by its postal code.

the next poor schlub who actually *means* "Let's do this again sometime" is supposed to say...what?

Yeah, it would be nice to be able to take people's words at face value. You can partially address this problem by making a specific suggestion (not to be confused with making a specific date) for the next time. But by and large, not solvable without broad social agreement.

We get good illustration on these threads sometimes of how people within a homogenous social circle can think there is "broad social agreement" while those outside are totally unfamiliar with the supposed agreement.

209: People in MA say "Mass."

[The youngsters may not know that way back before two-letter postal codes, states had abbreviations such as Fla., Penna. and Mass.]

Where I grew up, everyone gave their ZIP code after the name of their town. Kept things orderly.

As for the subject of the post, I have historically, particularly in my younger days, tended to do the getting distant and unresponsive until they break up with me approach, which is deprecated due to it obviously being so stupid and reprehensible.

I think the direct "I don't think this is going to work" approach is best. Offering up reasons unbidden just tends to invite objections or disagreement right off, which is good for neither party.

If they specifically ask "why?", then carefully repeating the "you're great but I just don't think we're right for each other/I'm just not feeling it" line, several times, in various ways, hopefully will work. After that it's pretty certain that they're determined to end up mad/hurt/spiteful no matter how careful and polite you are, which again sucks for both parties.

Incidentally, I've found that this is the best way to deal with phone or doorway solicitors too (other than not answering in the first place). A direct "I'm not going to be able to help you today" leaves them with no proffered reasons to object to, and they'll usually just sign off and leave you alone. If they do ask for a reason, responding with "I'm just not going to be able to help you today" several more times always seems to do the trick.

My great-aunt sends me cards addressed to "Penna.".

She also addressed the envelope to "Master [Firstname] [Lastname]", until my eighteenth birthday, when it because "Mr.".

209: There's "NOLA", used (I'm fairly sure) by people from NOLA. Is there anyplace but Atlanta that people refer to by it's international airport's three-letter designation?

Gaye et al. used postal code only for Pennsylvania:

Philadelphia, P.A. (Philadelphia, P.A.)
Baltimore and DC now (Baltimore and DC now)
Yeah, don't forget the Motor City.
(Can't forget the Motor City)
All we need is music (sweet music),
Sweet music (sweet music).
There'll be music everywhere (everywhere).
There'll be swingin' and swayin' and records playin'
And dancin' in the street, yeah.

190: Used to have a Berlin too --- until WWI.

I wonder how many other states' denizens refer to the state by its postal code.

It might be related to how many of them live in states with five syllables in their name.

216: Some in Toronto used to (hence the Rush album). I've seen it in type for Vancouver (yvr) but I don't remember hearing it.

People talk about living `in' telephone exchanges, too, but that seems to happen all over.

There's a great exchange in "Escape-ism" by James Brown where he keeps asking Fred Wesley where's he's from, the guy keeps saying "LA!" and James Brown says "no, no, nobody's from LA." until Fred finally says "you know, LA: Lower Alabama!"

215: we have a letter among our family archives simply addressed to "G. Stone, Phila."

Man mail was easy in those days.

Is there anyplace but Atlanta that people refer to by it's international airport's three-letter designation?

Portland, I believe.

Wouldn't it be great if RI had a city with a name like LA? You'd need an extra-wide envelope.

First time I heard the (wrong) pronunciation of Quincy was on that TV show. in the 70s. Weirdos.

221: There's at least one city where people sometimes identify themselves by the last two digits of their zip code. I was amazed by this until I shopped there and was routinely asked for my zip code. Since the first three digits are the same for all city dwellers, it's not unusual to hear an entire line of people go through the cash register and just say the last two digits: "42, 39, oh-3...."

Is there anyplace but Atlanta that people refer to by it's international airport's three-letter designation?

People around here use 'PDX' all the time. The X makes it kind of catchy, I think.

You meant 'its', of course.

Also Oklahoma City.

Teo-pwned.

Do people ever refer to DFW? (Dallas/Fort Worth)?

184: "Los Angeles" is a pretty damn anglicized pronunciation itself.

The proper pronunciation of Los Angeles was a running flamewar for much of the 20th century, leading to a commission in 1953 to determine the correct pronunciation. George Stewart describes it in his great book Names on the Land, relevant part excerpted here.

225: Especially if the LA went by its original name "El Pueblo de Nuestra Señora la Reina de los Ángeles de Porciúncula" .

Witt, are you referring to Fort Worth/Dallas?

218: Funny, I was going to mention that too, but figured it might inspire an aneurysm.

Toronto is known locally as TO or Tdot (I have no idea why the latter, but I've only been here 3 years).

~

I've never understood what people find so difficult about refraining from the "Let's do this again sometime/I'll call you/I'll be in touch" bullshit.

These are 3 distinct things; I agree with the expressed reasons why the first is inappropriate. But the last 2 don't have to be bullshit. In fact, if you really aren't interested, I think it is an acceptable tactic to postpone making a commitment for further getting together plans by saying you'll be in touch - as long as you use the opportunity to get in touch to say you don't think getting together again is in the cards.

IOW, if you tell someone right after having drinks together that you *don't* want to see them again, the other person is left with the justifiable impression that they've been sitting across the table for the last however long with someone who couldn't wait to be done with them. If you email after the fact, though, and say "it was nice to get to know you, and although I find you attractive, I just think we are two different people", it's a bit less harsh and conveys the sense that it wasn't immediate or contemporaneous revulsion, but a decision made upon reflection and after considering all the merits.

227: You meant 'its', of course.

That was for old time's sake.

Sea-tac is another odd one, so strange that I can't quite figure out how to describe it that we might find analogs.

225: yeah Quincy is a pretty Massachusetts specific oddity. Also the differing pronunciations of Wareham, Needham, Framingham, and Dedham.

232: Well, see, I only know the airport code. I don't think I've ever even flown through.

(Go ahead, tell me the locals are touchy about it.)

we have a letter among our family archives simply addressed to "G. Stone, Phila."

Great anecdote: A friend of a friend studied with Olivier Messiaen for a while. On the occasion of their leave-taking at a train station, the student realized that he didn't have Messiaen's address, whereupon Messiaen replied, just write to "Messiaen, Paris." The two-word address turned out to be sufficient.

Especially if the LA went by its original name "El Pueblo de Nuestra Señora la Reina de los Ángeles de Porciúncula" .

I'd like to say I was from EPNSRAP.

IOW, if you tell someone right after having drinks together that you *don't* want to see them again, the other person is left with the justifiable impression that they've been sitting across the table for the last however long with someone who couldn't wait to be done with them.

Very good point.

Just showing a lack of enthusiasm can send a quite detailed message, not of negativity precisely, but of apathy. If they don't get the hint, they wouldn't have gotten any other hint either.

How could "Quincy" be pronounced other than "Quincy"?

Quinky?

Quince?

Kincy?

Cinquy?

I can't even imagine.

234. It is unique, but by virtue of the East Rules rules it is the canonical pronunciation. We had it 1st.

I once heard a new person on WBZ TV say Nah - Tick emphasizing the 2nd syllable. Those funny foreigners.

Quinn Zee.

People in Boston definitely say "Portland, Oregon" when they're talking about the west coast one. I wonder if that means they're provincial?

234: SeaTac is a municipality unto itself.

The full name of Santa Fe is "El Pueblo Nuestro de la Santa Fé de San Francisco de Asís." Not quite as much of a mouthful as LA's, but still impressive.

I also have no idea how to pronounce "Nyack". Thankfully, it's never come up. If it does, I plan to pronounce it with one syllable in the hopes that when people burst out laughing they forget what it was they were laughing about and just remember that I am funny.

Quinsy is an old-fashioned disease. I wouldn't want to live in Dropsy, Mass. or Phthisic, Mass. either.

239.2: what a rube! I've heard people mispronounce Worcester to hilarious effect.

213: Yes, t-dot is pretty common. People talk about being in the 416 too, but less often.

235: Only a few locals in Ft. Worth. It's Dallas/Ft Worth to everyone else.

I definitely talk about being in "the 617", but I always figured that was a hacker/phreaker/BBS thing.

New Mexico is frequently called "the 505." We just got a second area code, which is bound to cause a crisis of identity in the affected parts of the state.

What makes Boston-area geography so entertaining is that many of the names are half-swallowed. Frex, Medford is pronounced (by the very local) Me fa. Sometimes it gets expanded to Me f'd.

248: ah, phreakers etc. have always done that. Some cities it seems to be in general usage. I think probably to denote city vs. 'burbs or something.

250: that's why I love "Wareham" so much: in contravention of every expectation, it's pronounced "Wareham", or really "weah ham", instead of "war'm" like every other town (except Framingham) with the same kind of name. Interestingly, that pronunciation apparently used to be divided on class lines, with the rich fucks saying "Ware'm", but that died out along with the New England patrician accent.

249 Same thing happened to BC, not so long ago.

A friend also had this happen not so long ago not with the prefix, not the exchange. So the whole town had to get used to 7 digit numbers after dealing with only 4 for ages. Small town.

247.2 -- I suppose the whole thing is pretty passé nowadays. When I was a kid, one certainly didn't want to give any ground to Dallas . . .

it's pronounced "Wareham", or really "weah ham", instead of "war'm" like every other town (except Framingham) with the same kind of name

Waltham.

254 is wonderful, in an "ahh, bygones" kind of way, and makes me imagine a primetime soap from an alternate childhood titled "Fort Worth," featuring as main character (I guess?) one E.R. Jewing.

253: When they originally announced that they were adding a second NM code (when I was in high school) people raised so much hell that they suddenly found a bunch of extra 505 numbers under a rock or something and decided they didn't need to make the change for a few more years. Seems the time has now come, though.

255: that's different though; it's a "tham" not a "ham".

254: Fair enough, but as far as I can tell that ship sailed.

Actually now that I think about it "Waltham" is another exception case.

258: Fair enough.

255: How do you know that?

The apparent arbitrariness of the area code system confounds me. For a couple of years after the rest-of-Oregon 541 split off the Portland-area 503, I frequently called people I knew in 541 only to reach some sleepy Quebecois in 514. 'Allo?

257: BC got around it another way. There's only one major city (Vancouver) so it got the old number and everywhere else got the new one. Kept the grumbling spread out.

There was also the great 'burg v 'burgh war. Sometime late 19th or early 20th century, the government decreed that all towns so named would officially be 'burg. The POs changed even in Pittsburgh PA. Almost all others remained that way, but the inertia and local outrage got it changed back to 'burgh in The 'Burgh. You can still find the temporary official spelling some places. The most notable I have seen is in the cupola of the old Pennsy train station (now condos) up behind Liberty and Grant.

It would be pretty awesome if somebody referred to "Walt'm".

If they specifically ask "why?", then carefully repeating the "you're great but I just don't think we're right for each other/I'm just not feeling it" line, several times, in various ways, hopefully will work. After that it's pretty certain that they're determined to end up mad/hurt/spiteful no matter how careful and polite you are, which again sucks for both parties.

see, this is always a bit weird. taking for granted that I'm fairly socially retarded, it still seems like the "yes, one person thinks it's over means it's over. that said, i have a bunch of behaviors that are not really central to my identity and that i'm not real fond of, and if it turns out that one of them is driving away otherwise attractive women that would be useful information to have" reasoning applies.

i mean, how insulting can the answer really be?

263: It's not getting any better with the cel providers, either. Especially with people who move alot (like most of my friends).

How do you know that?

My aunt went to Brandeis.

if it turns out that one of them is driving away otherwise attractive women that would be useful information to have

But there's no one set of qualities that will make someone universally desirable and the thing that drives one away might attract another. Plus, people often don't know or won't communicate the "real" reason they're not interested.

256 -- I think the soap would feature Amon Carter. With cameos by Frank Mahovolich.

BC got around it another way. There's only one major city (Vancouver) so it got the old number and everywhere else got the new one. Kept the grumbling spread out.

This is how it's usually done. Part of the problem with the NM plan was that they did it the other way around, with Albuquerque changing (first to 957, then after people started complaining to 575) and the rest of the state keeping 505. This made a lot more sense logistically, but it resulted in the outrage being concentrated in the most densely populated part of the state, which made it a lot more effective. When they finally made the change this year, it was Albuquerque (along with Santa Fe and the northwest part of the state) that kept the old code.

268: I've decided I'm sticking with my area code, wherever I happen to live. I like it.

But there's no one set of qualities that will make someone universally desirable and the thing that drives one away might attract another. Plus, people often don't know or won't communicate the "real" reason they're not interested.

well, sure. but there may be (and probably are) common threads, and the only person who can reasonably be expected to accumulate that kind of information is the person doing the driving away. also, plenty of folks (well, at least some) tend to date very similar people repeatedly.

and of course i hate making people that i care about feel bad, so inevitably go the selfish route of cutting off all contact. but that doesn't mean other people should do it to me!

I have a suburban area code on my cell phone, which I swear is because I ordered a new phone from a computer at my parent's house at a time when I was already living in NYC, and I don't like it one bit. I gave the website my correct address and it nevertheless insisted on assigning me to an area code that makes me look like some mixture of a rube and a yuppie. Maybe a yurpie?

Wikipedia:

Carter's disdain for Dallas, Fort Worth's larger and richer neighbor, was legendary in Texas. One of the best-known stories about Carter is that he would take a sack lunch whenever he traveled to Dallas so he wouldn't have to spend any money there. Another took place at a ceremony at the county line between Tarrant and Dallas Counties to officially bury the hatchet on the rivalry between the two cities. Carter and other leaders from both Fort Worth and Dallas were each presented with hatchets and shovels to bury them with. As the ceremony was wrapping up, a young reporter mentioned to Carter that the handle of his hatchet was still sticking out of the ground, to which Carter replied that he was well aware and that he might need his hatchet later.

I don't even have a cell. Don't you know the government uses them to track your movements? Also, they display time, and I affect to be ignorant thereof, never mind the fact that people can call you anytime, and you can't pretend to be elsewhere. There are any number of reasons why a cell phone is inappropriate for the aspiring Unibomber.

Maybe a yurpie?

A ruby.

the aspiring Unibomber

Planning to bomb Harvard and MIT?

A ruby.

Nice.

One of my favorite bits of Area Code trivia:

The original 1947 area code assignments were in part determined by population density in metropolitan areas. All phones were rotary dials, and the time it took to wait for the dial to spin back around made dialing area codes like 909 a time consuming affair (9 pulses + 10 pulses + 9 pulses = 28 pulses). As a result, areas with the most people and the most use of phone numbers were assigned codes with the fewest pulses to complete. New York City received the only 5 pulse area code, 212. Northern IL (including Chicago) and southern CA (including Los Angeles & San Diego) received the only two 6 pulse codes, 312 & 213 respectively. Southeastern Michigan (including Detroit), Northeastern Texas (including Dallas) and southwestern Pennsylvania (including Pittsburgh) were assigned 7 pulse codes, 313, 214 & 412 respectively. By the time we get to the 8 pulse codes, we start to see less concern with length as Missouri (including St. Louis) got 314, while sparsely populated western MA got 413.

Also, the original 1-code state codes all had "0" as the middle digit, while all of the multiple code state codes had "1".

259 -- One more and I'll sign out. When I was a kid, the big rival of our Ft. Worth Wings was the Dallas Blackhawks. Smack-talking, and actual fistfights in the stands.

I wonder if Dallas people think about what they've lost. Or if they would if they weren't so shallow . . .

6 pulse, motherfucker!

282: See the thing about these rivalries is it only registers if you're from there.

Ft Worth/Dallas sounds like St. Paul/Minneapolis to the rest of us... just kind of off but were aren't sure why.

San Diego/Tijuana, San Francisco/Oakland, Boston/Cambridge, Seattle/Tacoma: same difference.

Juarez/El Paso

Is it really the same though? We're talking about cities that are often or usually talked about as a lump. Nobody really says San Fran/Oakland and the last one... it's either seattle, or sea-tac, never seattle/tacoma.

Hm. I can't think of any other cities like that, in that case.

Annapolis/DC?

Then there is the instances of total pwnage where a city consumes its rival: New York/Brooklyn, Cleveland (originally Cleaveland)/Ohio City, Pittsburgh/Allegheny (now the North Side), Boston/Roxbury - I'm sure there are others. Budapest seems too equitable - in America we demand a Winner!

And, for the record, it isn't San Francisco/Oakland, Boston/ Cambridge, it's SF/ Berkeley/ Oakland, Boston/ Cambridge/ Somerville, and only just that.

288: Akron/Canton (it is the airport at least).
The Quad (were Tri) cities are a special case.

Port Arthur/Fort William - but then they made the cool merge and switch to Thunder Bay.

KC/KC?

247: Actually, I hear 416 invoked far more often than Tdot. In fact, the whole Toronto identity is wrapped up in being the 416: which is always pitted against the 905 suburbs. Of course there is also the 647, but that's generally limited to people with inferior mobile plans and new immigrants who don't know better than to insist on a 416...

Raleigh/Durham.

289: Pestabud would definitely be strange, though. So, for that matter, would Slavokoczechia have been.

Scranton/Wilkes-Barre.

293: ain't that just the "Research Triangle" or whatever?

Dade-Miami?

Ah, Allentown/Bethlehem or Allentown/Bethlehem/Easton.

Raleigh/Durham

Greensboro/Winston-Salem (itself a merger)

Allentown/Bethlehem.

and of course i hate making people that i care about feel bad, so inevitably go the selfish route of cutting off all contact.

Of course all this accomplishes is that you don't have to witness them feeling bad. You still, in all likelihood, make them feel bad. Which isn't to say that I don't do it too, though perhaps for even less noble reasons.

Scottsdale/Phoenix?

Pestabud would definitely be strange, though.

Particularly because the two component cities were called Buda and Pest.

Dade-Miami is one of those county/city mergers.

Jacksonville, Indianapolis and Toronto (somewhat) did similar.

Scottsdale/Phoenix?

You'd have to include Mesa, and probably Tempe too. The usual term is "the Valley."

Also for the record, re: 279, one needs to graduate from an institution before one can honorably bomb it. I may yet bomb my GED testing location, but what would be the point?

303: that's up there with "The Southland" as far as horribly post-facto place names go.

Champaign/Urbana.

305: It's a bit of a horribly post-facto place.

Of course all this accomplishes is that you don't have to witness them feeling bad. You still, in all likelihood, make them feel bad. Which isn't to say that I don't do it too, though perhaps for even less noble reasons.

this is of course true. i feel that there are some excuses to be made in sins of commission vs. sins of omission area, but they're just that.

Stamford/Norwalk.

307: they both are; there may be a connection.

303: that's up there with "The Southland" as far as horribly post-facto place names go.

THE CHICAGOLAND AREA

Racine/Kenosha.

312 is awfully obscure.

Ben I really hope you just made 311 up this very second. Noboy could possibly use that, right?

Do the Quad Cities count?

problem with `the valley' is, too many places are called `the valley'. Hell, it's even ambiguous within california

Horribly on-topic, but someone once talked me out of breaking up with them, and we had a year's worth of a better than average relationship after it. This demonstrates that I am an extraordinarily reasonable man, in that if you've got a good case for it, I will fuck you.

300: Am trying to think if what started as a pure suburb has ever overwhelmed the original city?

Kowloon is more populous than the original Hong Kong - but is not the commercial hub.

In the Tidewater - (Norfolk/Newport news/Hampton/Virgina Beach/Chesapeake) - not sure that Norfolk is still at the top.

312 is awfully obscure.

Really? It's right between Chicago and Milwaukee.

317: Baltimore and Detroit have certainly gone in that direction, but it is not yet reflected in nomenclature.

Ann Arbor/Detroit, there's one.

313: it really does happen.

problem with `the valley' is, too many places are called `the valley'. Hell, it's even ambiguous within california

Not within Arizona, which doesn't have very many valleys. Though you are of course correct on the larger point.

318: I'd've figured that for cows, tundra, and cheese signs, being a costal elite.

313: Sadly, no. 436,000 google hits for Chicagoland. 92,000 for "Chicagoland area".

Midland/Odessa.

319: Have heard Detroit/Windsor as well.

In the Tidewater - (Norfolk/Newport news/Hampton/Virgina Beach/Chesapeake) - not sure that Norfolk is still at the top.

Virginia Beach has the largest population by a considerable margin.

Brownsville/Matamoros.

Lake Tahoe/Reno

322: A likely story. You never did. The Kenosha, kid, /Racine line is quite well known.

Mountain Park/High Rolls (okay, that one's pretty obscure).

Las Cruces/Mesilla.

Truth or Consequences/Elephant Butte.

But there's no one set of qualities that will make someone universally desirable and the thing that drives one away might attract another. Plus, people often don't know or won't communicate the "real" reason they're not interested.

What ogged said.

Of course *I'd* love to know the real reason why. But I've accepted that a) I'm not likely to get the true answer (even if it is because the other person can't properly articulate it); and/or b) it may be entirely illogical or idiosyncratic.

I think the real reason many people want to know the "real" reason is so they can have a rational discussion about it in the hopes of talking the other person out of it, as if it is a fixable problem, or as if they can go back in time to that one instance where they think they might have done something offputting ("OMG, I wish I had never said I liked that Celine Dion song"). But it's never one incident. It's an accumulation of things, and tastes, and experiences that may say as much about the dumper as the dumpee.

I'm a strong believer in not arguing over whether the relationship should end, once someone's decided to pull the plug (I did it one time, in high school - never again). Even on occasions when I'm not sure I'm getting the brush off or not, and have emailed or left a message to see what the status is, I simply invite the person to not respond if they aren't interested, rather than say - and/or say why - they aren't interested in pursuing it further.

Ending a relationship isn't always subject to reason or logic. It's one of the few instances where the answer to the question "why" can fairly be "because I said so". And ultimately, that is as useful as "we are just two different people", so why not stick with that...

Oxnard/Ventura.

Palo Alto/San Jose. Davis/Sacramento.

Okay, there's a lot, but none on the level of St. Paul/Minneapolis or (I'm totally going to argue) Tacoma/Seattle.

Laughlin/Bullhead City.

Biloxi/Gulfport.

333. Shit. Beat me to it.

Farmington/Shiprock?
Clovis/Portales

Have heard Detroit/Windsor as well.

Or, as we Windsorites like to say, Windsor/Detroit.

There is something highly amusing about the chaste/unchaste tone of the parallel conversations in this thread. It's like half of us are sixth graders and the other half seventh graders.

Re: the subject of the post, don't Muslims just say "I reject thee" three times or something?

Alternatively, try either "I experienced an intense desire to cheat on you, and wanted to keep things honest" or "I just came to you from another woman's arms and I can't live a lie."

Laguna/Acoma.

Farmington/Shiprock?

These are way too far apart. Waterflow/Fruitland/Kirtland/Farminton/Bloomfield is plausible, but there's still a pretty significant gap between Waterflow and Shiprock.

340: Fuck!! You know what can happen when you cross the streams!

Blanco/Nageezi.

344: I just don't want to have sex with Gary, Indiana anymore, JP. I just don't.

Window Rock/Tse Bonito.

340: True, but which is which?

344: Cursing to lay claim to the 7th grader designation.

346: Dear Gary, it was fun. Don't call me.

Tuba City/Moenkopi.

Montezuma Creek/Aneth.

Flagstaff/Winona.

Colorado City/Hildale.

Teo is caught in a Total Geographical Nerd Vortex.
All because Tweety crossed the streams.

349: Dear Gary, you smell and I'm into your neighbor.

Provo/Orem.

Dear Gary,
Suck my lake.

Michigan

Kingman / Barstow.

Greenville/Spartanburg.

Lewiston/Clarkston.

Missed Connections: You: declining industrial city with looking to cut your ties with your decadent, spendthrift western ex. Me: your homespun rural twin, left furniture-less and lost. Won't you ride my rapids, Gary? Let's take a white flight together.

BOSNYWASH! My hometown.

Hate is local. City dichotomies disguise this, but one hates among one's own. Growing up in Montclair we hated Piedmont. When I moved to the Temescal we hated Rockridge. Then, at 33rd and San Pablo we hated Foothill. and then , at MacArthur next to 580 we hated downtown. Anyone familiar with Oakland geography will recognize that I, over the course of my OAK real estate career, hated my opposite numbers. At no point did we aspire to hate our betters, nor those below us on the real estate chain. Hate is properly carried out within one's class.

363: indeed, fuck Newton, those stuck up shits.

Teo is caught in a Total Geographical Nerd Vortex.
All because Tweety crossed the streams.

This would also explain my perpetual virginity. Damn you, Tweety!

364. Newton South or Newton North?

365: teo, have I or have I not already helped arrange for you to get crabs?

Dear Gary,

Your song sucks. And don't go blaming the bass player.

366: fuck the both of them, but north particularly. South is too downmarket for my hate.

Speaking of stupid, upscale Boston suburbs, I was highly disturbed to read of this book series going national.

Brookline is the new Sweet Valley.

teo, have I or have I not already helped arrange for you to get crabs?

You have (although I'm not sure you deserve all the credit), but arranging something is easy; it's follow-through that matters.

Baraga/L'Anse

Is Brookline the Park Slope or the Upper East Side of Boston?

BSG makes me weep. Ugh.

Stormhead/Pillow City

372: neither is really entirely accurate, although Park Slope is probably closer. Someplace in the Evanston/La Jolla/Main Line Philadelphia nexus, to be nonspecific about it.

A friend from Brookline described it as Park Slope with a small contingent of Russian gangsters.

Park Slope attached to a much smaller city, maybe.

I failed to mention contempt. Contempt is universal, and not affected by class. It is the poor man's snobbery, e.g. "I have contempt for everybody south of the river and north of Dorchester." This is a stupid belief, but one held by many who can't really afford their rent.

Park Slope = Jamaica Plain, ne c'est pas?

379: richer, though. Really, I think it's tough to make comparisons. Brookline is a unique snowflake of a ritzy, diverse, majority Jewish streetcar suburb (with excellent public schools) of an older, college-heavy east coast city.

Oh, don't be offended Mr. Sifu. I'm an auslander here, my contempt is derived only from rental prices. The ridiculous prices of boston rentals protect your culture from invaders like me, so be thankful for them.

Dude, invade away. I moved to California, remember?

I really liked the Brookline to Evanston comparison. Most of JP is like what I think Park Slope is like. (Never lived in the latter and I lived in JP when streetcars ran through Monument Square. So MMMV.)

(Most folks in Dorchester would think of the river as being the Neponset—if they thought of a river at all.)

I figure if I ever go to England I am so screwed. I expect that my Massachusetts pronunciations of place names won't match the originals' current pronunciations.

Evanston/La Jolla/Main Line Philadelphia

Are you saying San Diego is comparable to Chicago?

385: I am saying that there's not a very accurate comparison to be had, YLB. Is Philly like San Diego, then?

I figure if I ever go to England I am so screwed. I expect that my Massachusetts pronunciations of place names won't match the originals' current pronunciations.

Whatever you do when you're there, *do not* refer to LondonOnt as "London"...

384: You'd be surprised. I learned a lot of place names' proper pronunciation from watching English football.

0258 and my alarm is set for 0730. G'night.

Oh, and 382, that's very kind of you, but I don't expect to be a New Englander, no matter which storms I live through. I go out to smoke wearing sandals, dammit. That must disqualify me right there.

Goodnight Mr. .05

Goodnight Mr. .05

It takes a lot more than being born in New England to be a New Englander, fm. I'm just not cussed enough for it. Besides, I'm not from southie (or acceptable proxy). We interlopers must stick together.

If it makes you feel better, it takes more than being born in the Bay Area to be part of the Bay Aryan Nation (e.g. Bitch (SoCal is an explanation, not an excuse)).

Re: 209, 217.

Heard about Houston? Heard about Detroit?
Heard about Pittsburgh, P.A.?
You oughta know not to stand by the window
Somebody might see you up there
I got some groceries, some peanut butter,
To last a couple of days
But I ain't got no speakers, ain't got no
Headphones, ain't got no records to play

This is at least one sub-thread ago, but Newark, DE is pronounced "Nork."

...and Paso Robles, CA is pronounced "Pass-o Row-bulls"

SoCal is an explanation, not an excuse
It's a damn good thing the author of this little jibe didn't see my earlier ridicule of regional hatred, otherwise he'd be cringing in shame right now (as well he should). What a prick.

"Darling, I saw the doctor this morning. He says I have Sudden Onset Erectile Dysfunction."

Whatever you do when you're there, *do not* refer to LondonOnt as "London"...

Do so by all means, as long as you refer to the conurbation on the Thames as "Town" (favourable), "the Smoke" (neutral), or "that overpriced, uninhabitable shithole" (people from the other 90% of the country).

People in Boston definitely say "Portland, Oregon" when they're talking about the west coast one. I wonder if that means they're provincial?

First day in Bend we settled with the waitress: she taught us to say ORE 'g'n, we taught her not to say the ess in "Illinois."

"This doesn't look like it's working out." Keep it short, no drawn-out explanations or ponderous analysis of "what went wrong". Don't feign sadness.

MattF speaks the truth. Except, do say it slightly more directly. "This is not working out for me."

Be clear. Be precise. Do not waver.

There really isnt a lot of productive things that you can say to someone after you tell them that you do not want to be together any more.

After two dates, I think you're in good territory for: "I love you, but I'm not in love with you."

402: 88 (and 31)

People in Boston definitely say "Portland, Oregon" when they're talking about the west coast one. I wonder if that means they're provincial?

I really like Portland, Maine. And it makes sense to me that people on the east coast would specify "Oregon" to refer to the other one. Just about every place is provincial.

See the thing about these rivalries is it only registers if you're from there.

As if the opinions of other people might matter!

When there's a lot of repetition of place names, they function like indexicals! Christ, how provincial.

Allentown is not merging with Bethlehem. They could merge, as there's nothing in the way but some trees, but they're seven miles apart.

244: Nye-yack. I, when seeing it on a road sign, like to pronounce it 'nyak', too.

Is there anyplace but Atlanta that people refer to by it's international airport's three-letter designation?

Jacksonville, Florida (JAX).

Do people ever refer to DFW? (Dallas/Fort Worth)?

The favored term in the local media is "the Dallas / Fort Worth Metroplex", or simply "the Metroplex".

Newark, Ohio is "nerk;" I actually don't know how le premier Newark is pronounced.

384: You'd be surprised. I learned a lot of place names' proper pronunciation from watching English football.

This should help. I was surprised by "Hartlepool", "Macclesfield", and "Wycombe". And "Crewe" seems to have an umlaut iin it.

409: The Hartlepudlians have some strange history as well as pronunciation. (And from the link I learned that it too is a "merged" city.)

Alternatively, just do something really obnoxious/gross, like pick your nose in front of her.

Speaking as a gross obnoxious slob, this doesn't work.

408: NEW-urk

i think Cristina Aguilera has pulmonary hypertension, she looks asphyxic

I have not read thsi thread yet, and it seems to have moved on, but I need to report that somebody contacted me via gmail chat. I responded, saying that I'd never used it and that I hadn't been invited to the party that he had missed.

It's the same dude that I had coffee with last year and whom I told that I wasn't interested in having dinner with him. I think he'd said (before I had coffee with him) something like, "I felt as though I knew you; you were so nice." Not quite that bad, but nearly. gswift said that he did not sense that there would be good times with this dude.

So, he said that he saw me occasionally on gmail and sent the message. He's perfectly safe, but I feel sort of stalked.

I think you can block him from seeing you online, BG. It's not obtrusive, and he'll still see your name in his list, you'll just never be lit.

If you don't use the Gmail Chat feature just turn the whole thing off. (IMX its responsiveness is so erratic and generally so slow it's mostly not worth having anyway.)

If you hover over his name on your chat list, BG, a little box will come up with options at the bottom about when you want this person to come up in your list. One of those options is to block him.

I have that gmail chat issue with students. I run my university email through gmail (better interface, better spam filtering). Many of them do, too, and gmail has figured this out. I just block any that show up and call it good.

I really don't want my students knowing when I'm drunkemailing at 1 in the morning.