On the strength of this post, it seems you haven't quite made the transition yourself.
Kids will usually do it to you, as will a dissertation.
I survived a dissertation. Remind me again why people have kids?
Remind me again why people have kids?
So that eventually they won't have to mow the lawn.
yeah, and you won't like my beautiful nostrils
I've found that three years as a law firm associate have had some of this effect, though I'm not sure that the transition is complete.
I'm an old guy with kids, but I'm pretty sure I've never lost this ineffable quality you attempt to describe.
I think, however, there's a plausible case to be made that I never had it in the first place. I never wanted to climb Mount Everest, or what have you, and most of my more modest ambitions I've either accomplished or haven't given up on.
For me it was the point when I realized that all the stuff I used to be good (science, music) at was now only past-tense stuff, and thinking of myself in that was like the former high school quarterback still thinking of himself as an NFL contender as he goes to work in the used car lot.
When my old boss turned 30 he came in to work and said, "I think I finally have to face the fact that I will never score a try for Ireland."
On the other hand, this,
I would watch and note just when the spark of youth left someone's eyes
sounds kind of insufferable.
thanks, Ogged. I'm in the middle of dissertating.
Ah well, my empty, barren womb that is devouring its own cavity will keep me young.
"Exbeforelast and I used to like to drink the life essence of the young, leaving them dessicated and empty." God you have weird hobbies.
You're trying to push me over the edge, aren't you, Ogged?
sounds kind of insufferable.
Not to anyone's face, of course. I'd say something to ebl like "You know that spark of youth thing we talked about? Have you seen so-and-so lately?"
Then I'd go home and put a check next to their name in my Book of Doom.
Kids will usually do it to you
It wasn't the first kid that did it, but the divorce sure did. After that, the next two kids were just piling on.
The spark of youth, replaced by the distant cackles of Death approaching.
You really had to post this item today, huh?
It's a hopeful post! Happiness! Contentment! Just no bathing.
It's the moment when you go from seeing your life as a set of possibilities to be explored and new experiences to be had, to realizing that you will not do or be the vast majority of what you might have done or been, and that your life is what it is.
It's funny, but having a kid actually restored rather than diminished my capacity to see "life as a set of possibilities to be explored and new experiences to be had." That's probably just because my kid is so much better than all the rest, though.
There was sort of an alarming point in my mid-late 20s when I realized that, when entering a house with young children, I no longer gravitated towards them for play. I hung out with the grownups and talked about, I dunno, debentures or something.
But I think that was just the last gasp of childhood. My youthfulness persists, I think.
This post is making my rheumatism act up.
Never having had much myself in the way of ambition, a sense of life's possibilities, or reason or birth to feel entitled to very much, all the good stuff that has happened to me has had the quality of surprise about it, and thus been highly enjoyable.
So long as you take time now and then to listen to the laughter of the squirrels, the spark of youth will never leave your eyes.
And if it does, you can always eat the squirrels.
On the plus side, having kids wear me down to dust has kept me from thinking about going back to school.
I was convinced that the fact that I couldn't think of any puns anymore was a sure sign that grad school had done me in. But then I came up with one that takes the cake, and am slightly reassured.
Many people find themselves suddenly matured when their parents die. Not me, of course, because my parents will never die and I'll kill anybody who suggests that they might.
I could be all maudlin and say that falling in love again brings it back, but then I would admit "albeit briefly, before the likely heartbreak estinguishes the spark forever."
Yeah, I could be that maudlin.
If you hang out with people who are all at least 5 years older than you, the constant heckling of your extreme youth will keep the feelings of despair away.
Also, I'm somehow only now learning that Ogged was once in grad school. This gap in my knowledge is more disconcerting than it really should be.
Not me, of course, because my parents will never die and I'll kill anybody who suggests that they might.
What if your parents suggest that they might?
It did dawn on me recently after being reminded that Gilbert Arenas is just 25 years old that the window for my professional athletic career is rapidly drawing closed.
This year I've had a more acute worry, that if I don't get out and play some music, it will never make my list of priorities again. So I patched up my saxophone and joined a band, and we're playing on Saturday night. W00t.
Weren't you doing some high-concept wind synth-based thing a while ago?
I have no illusions about ever making a living at music, but I do harbour fantasies of playing in a little jazz combo somewhere, once a week, maybe.
27: I know nothing real about Ogged, and believe that if it stays this way then things are as they should be.
Seriously though, I was talking to an Unfogged regular, who has corresponded with Ogged and read this blog for years and years, and he still doesnt' know anything real about him--where he lives, what he does for a living, where he went to school, what he studied.
This is oddly comforting: phantoms do exist. A real life vampire. A shadow of a man. When Ogged leaves this world, it will be as if he was never there, except for the trail of dessicated young bodies in his wake.
Actually, the first diminshment of the spark happened somewhere during my sophomore year of college, when it became apparent that neither poet nor revolutionary was a viable career path.
I'm just now starting to have students born in the 90's.
Actually, they're prospective freshmen, for the most part. Next year - Born In The 90's.
I think the spark of youth left me when I was about 12.
I don't think I've totally lost the spark of youth, but I've tentatively scheduled it for when I make my first student loan payment.
I keep my youthful demeanor alive by dressing like a 15 year old. Skulls on my Vans, rock on!
35: I was going to say, that's my daughter, within a couple of months of being the oldest person who could say that, going next year.
35: Make us all feel old, why don't you? (not just the old people, who deserve it).
30: Yeah, but I can't afford the equipment to carry it through, and my collaborator is as flaky as I am. Now I'm doing horns and drums, nothing written out.
Funny you should ask. I'm 37 and seriously considering quitting my Big Law job and taking a year off to work on a campaign/travel/do nothing.
Is this a sign that I haven't lost my youthful sense of possibility, or a mid-life crisis? Tough to say.
There goes my soul.
Very nice. Also, this one.
Having worried about this sort of stuff since high school, I'd like to think I'm not in for an imminent soul-crushing (or at least not a new one). But thanks nonetheless, Ogged.
Being on the verge of both dissertating and (vicariously though my spouse) childing, I'm now afraid that not just the spark of youth will leave my eyes, but the spark of life.
Because I'm at the same school now as I was as an undergraduate, I'm still in the clubs I was in as an undergraduate, which now consist of people 3 to 7 years younger than me, plus the couple grad students who come and go. About once a month I wonder "Am I a big loser?", but there isn't a critical mass of people my age in my department that I could hang out with them.
The hard part is being 25 and trying not to develop a giant crush on a 20-year-old.
Go for it, Crispix. Be that creepy grad student.
The hard part is being 25 and trying not to develop a giant crush on a 20-year-old.
Why would there be anything wrong with that? 25 versus 20 isn't some unbridgeable age-gap.
28: Don't confuse me with hypotheticals, w-lfs-n. I know of karate.
A five year age difference is nothing. Sheesh. What's wrong with you people?
having a kid actually restored rather than diminished my capacity
Seconded. Giving in to viewing the next day as a liability rather than a glorious possibility (near impossible with the set of loony institutional constraints I work under, but I persevere heroically) makes people old inside in a bad, hollowed-out shell sort of way. People will live to 80 mostly, which really does make 60 the new 40. Trying flakey new things at 50 is allowed-- not easy, not typical, but being X years of age today does not have the same meaning as it did a generation ago. The hardest part for me is that it'd be a lot easier to muster enthusiasm if I generally liked most other people, and I generally only like 1/20 or so. Something to work on. Marcus Aurelius and Oprah are both inspirational.
My idle fantasy is taking a few years off and working in a glass shop without committing professional suicide or not having enough money to provide my kid reasonable security. Or taking off on a nomadic travel bender. He just wrote the most entertaining little book about the war between the French navy and Chicago. There's one page where a homesick soldier dreams of an olive grove that's especially nice.
About once a month I wonder "Am I a big loser?"
Me too, but then I remember that I have seen the elephant in a couple of ways and relax a bit.
The hard part is being 25 and trying not to develop a giant crush on a 20-year-old.
DO IT! Extinguish the spark of youth in her eyes!
DO IT! Extinguish the spark of youth in her eyes!
"Hey! I'm not into water sports!"
My idle fantasy is taking a few years off and working in a glass shop
That's not a very outside-the-box fantasy.
This question parallels a discussion on a previous thread about managing the transition from "has so much promise" to headshaking "had so much promise". I suspect that unfogged strongly selects for people prone to this fate, inasmuch the combination of top quartile mental whateverness and bottom quartile career ambition seems to unite most of us.
inasmuch the combination of top quartile mental whateverness and bottom quartile career ambition seems to unite most of us
And.... Yep, now I'm depressed.
Five years isn't a big deal but macking on the undergrads can get you a reputation for 'that creepy old guy who, like, never grew up', depending on your macking modifier.
#10) FL: " "Exbeforelast and I used to like to drink the life essence of the young, leaving them dessicated and empty." God you have weird hobbies. "
You know that Grendel would just lift a thane over his head, bite the guy's head off, and drink his blood like a man drinking from a wineskin.
Which is a bit more quick and merciful.
Though not as fun.
Call me old-fashioned, but I still like the fangs in the neck. Traditional, but never really goes out of style.
Why would there be anything wrong with that? 25 versus 20 isn't some unbridgeable age-gap.
Well, I am engaged. And if I was hanging out with people my age most of them would be in boring stable relationships like mine as well.
And I sometimes feel like "Dammit, I've paid my dues. She should be having a crush on me, not the other way around."
Flippanter: "Many people find themselves suddenly matured when their parents die. Not me, of course, because my parents will never die and I'll kill anybody who suggests that they might."
Hey, Flippanter - I just overheard Ogged trying to sell them funeral insurance :)
Is 61 confirmation of my initial supposition, to wit, that Ned and Crispix are numerically identical?
What the hell? I posted 47 under the name I use at another site.
Ideally someone would redact that, but it probably doesn't matter.
Upon further inspection that's the third time I've done that here.
57: ... inasmuch the combination of top quartile mental whateverness and bottom quartile career ambition seems to unite most of us.
Unfogged, like Mensa only with lower standards.
58: And.... Yep, now I'm depressed.
Having a positive self-image is overrated.
Write "will to power" for career ambition to preserve self image. Sour grapes or enlightened disinterest are aspects of a single mental state.
Cheer up, folks - once the onset of senility begins, you forget that you lost your spark of youth and life begins to improve drastically.
once the onset of senility begins
Can the beginning of the onset of senility be distinguished from the beginning of senility itself?
Anyway, it's not that we have lower ambition, just that our priorities are more grounded. Or something like that.
Then I'd go home and put a check next to their name in my Book of Doom.
I know this was meant as a joke, but it fits so well with my vision of ogged as Keeper of All the Details that I'm going to have to remind myself in the future that he doesn't actually do this.
(You don't really, do you?)
It's waxed and waned over the years, but I think that the first time the spark really dimmed was when I was 7/8.
Blume, I put down somewhere that I'd studied German for a year, so a vocational counselor made me take a Prove It! test on Microsoft Word in German and Italian. Using Outlook in French was not quite as bad, although it was made harder by the fact that I have almost no experience working with Outlook.
It's waxed and waned over the years, but I think that the first time the spark really dimmed was when I was 7/8.
Just shy of your first birthday. How sad.
You know that I meant 7 or 8, heebie dear. It was the late summer and early fall of the 3rd grade which was just before I turned 8. But still it is sad.
Oh, no, I've got plenty of will to power; it's just that I'm too lazy to attain any. I would cheerfully exercise it if it were bestowed upon me.
I prefer to think this spark isn't dimming for good, actually.
This book studies men from college through late maturity (50 or 60?) and makes very clear that their personalities disappeared for a decade or two in their 30s and 40s. Kids plus midcareer is just tough, and most of us put our heads down and kind of bury a lot of our distinctive selves to get through it. It isn't forever, though.
I'm into taking up goofy kid hobbies to kindle my spirit. I'm trying to learn to wheelie my bike the length of my block by spring. Last winter I learned to ride a unicycle. Sadly, at my age, there doesn't seem to be as much overlap between these two skills as I would have thought.
When I first tried to paste that link into comment 77, I pasted in an entire referee report for a journal article. I'm sure those authors would have loved it if I shared all my thoughts about causality and their conclusions here on unfogged.
76: Same here. But the combination of my enlightened disinterest and grounded priorities keep me from pursuing these ends.
We would have redacted it after alerting your chair to the incident, spaz.
a vocational counselor made me take a Prove It! test on Microsoft Word in German
I learned Excel in German before I ever used it in English, and when I first started discussing it with other English speakers, I realized that I didn't know half of the English terms. One particularly embarassing example: "Pivot tables" are "Pivot-Tabellen" in German, and my German colleagues always pronounced it "pee-VO", as if it were French. It never occurred to me that it was related to the English word "pivot". I don't think I inspired a lot of confidence in my abilities the first time I made that particular mispronunciation in front of English speakers.
cheerfully exercise it
It's real work. Grinding your enemies marrow into meal, or setting up key meetings to which they are not invited and not to be told of, either tack takes energy.
That's an interesting-looking book.
We would have redacted it after alerting your chair to the incident, spaz.
Surely more lawyers and crushingly embarrassing publicity would need to be involved, as well.
The Italian one seemed to crash a lot. I'd click on the button for "Next Question" and then even before I could do the operation, it said, "Are you Done?" or "Do you want to repeat?" I hadn't even tried to use Excel for at least 3 years and was never very good at it. A few hours of practice would have helped me to score much better on the test. I do hate Microsoft Office and don't understand why there aren't much better alternatives in widespread use.
This blog is really depressing today. It is raining and 37 in Dallas, and the dogs are moping, and I don't need this shit.
85. Grounded, bob, grounded. The blog is well-grounded today.
Townes van Zandt or Paul van Dyk, you choose the background music.
77: is right, old age has its compensations. Once upon a time I learned how to say "Thank you" in Swedish just in case the research panned out. It didn't. Now I can have a triumph whenever I manage to pour my morning coffee without spilling any.
The desert's quiet, Cleveland's cold
And so the story ends we're told
Pancho needs your prayers it's true, but save a few for Lefty too
He only did what he had to do, and now he's growing old
Once upon a time I learned how to say "Thank you" in Swedish just in case the research panned out.
It's a good thing, too, because your Norwegian hosts would have been mortified. (Or were you aspiring to the peace prize?)
Actually, come to think of it, you would have been OK, because the Swedish and Norwegian words for "thank you" sound more or less the same.
89:
Under the spreading chesnut tree
the village smithy lies
He's too weak to shoe horses
so now he's shooing flies
90: The Norse Vikings looted the Nobel in Medicine and Physiology from the Swedes and no one here noticed?
That's not the way I heard it, Knecht.
90: D'oh! I got it backwards. Clearly, my ambition never extended that far.
One particularly embarassing example: "Pivot tables" are "Pivot-Tabellen" in German, and my German colleagues always pronounced it "pee-VO", as if it were French.
"What's a beer table?"
I know this was meant as a joke, but it fits so well with my vision of ogged as Keeper of All the Details that I'm going to have to remind myself in the future that he doesn't actually do this. (You don't really, do you?)
Ogged has already added your "consumed buckets of acid" comment to your dossier, if that's what you're wondering.
(You don't really, do you?)
There isn't a physical book, no.
Mwahahahaha
There isn't a physical book, no.
Loose sheets. It only works because ogged's very organized.
Loose sheets. It only works because ogged's very organized.
Lies. He inscribes the names on the lifeless bodies of departed commenters.
B-dub, I have emailed you and await a reply.
Speaking to the original post, you can keep a certain degree of youthfulness if you're willing to be poor and angry all the time.
I think Emerson may have a slight misunderstanding of youthfulness.
Okay, I get it. This blog is about sex and death, which is why everyone's always talking about religion.
I love the part where ogged is chased around by a giant spermatazoa.
Okay, I get it. This blog is about sex and death, which is why everyone's always talking about religion.
How about a nice game of table tennis?
This blog is about sex and death
What else is there?
What else is there?
Exactly. Hence: table tennis!
This blog is about sex and death
That represents a broadening. When I first started reading, it was about the death of sex.
But not underwater sex. Or underwater death.
Or underwater death.
Only underwater spinal cord trauma leading to paralysis.
Underwater death is possible. All those swimming posts.
it was about the death of sex.
It still is. But it was determined that preliminary research into what sex and death themselves are was necessary before the specific investigation into the latter of the former could be carried out.
Only underwater spinal cord trauma leading to paralysis.
Are we sure there was water in that pool?
before the specific investigation into the latter of the former could be carried out.
Ogged seems to be marching out ahead of the program.
I'm not sure how I'd do on the O&EBFL scale, but I don't feel particularly dimmed.
Who sez I don't have the spark of youth in my eyes? Granted, it's nestled amidst crow's feet and I have periodically to replenish it by robbing the youth of their joy, but it's definitely there.
If only I knew how to play.
I'm sure Father Ted Gonerill would be happy to teach you.
Sex is the condition of possibility of death, the cessation of sex. Therefore sex is the possibility of the end of sex--viz. dying--which, in the form of the orgasm (which the French correctly call la petite mort), is the apotheosis of life, and therefore to be avoided.
125: Hard to believe you're not getting laid more.
Tangential: There is little more annoying than being told 'you look tired, you must have had gone out last night.' No, thanks, this is just my face without makeup.
But ogged, if death is "the cessation of sex", isn't avoiding sex simply death once more?
128: If you don't start, you don't cease, right?
125: Hard to believe you're not getting laid more.
Tim just made me laugh out loud.
128: If you don't start, you don't cease, right?
Sure, but that vitiates the claim that death is the cessation of sex, since we know that even celibates can die. We might interpret ogged as saying that death is the cessation of the possibility of sex, but that means that someone who (effectively) foreswears sex has died right then and there.
isn't avoiding sex simply death once more?
At 3:13pm, Mountain Standard Time, the spark of youth went out of Ben w-lfs-n's eyes.
111: What else is there?
Wheat... lots of wheat... fields of wheat... a tremendous amount of wheat...
As I understand, resignation is what Ogged was talking about. Anger is not resignation, and lots of young people are angry. Resignation is suppressed ambition plus suppressed anger.
Easy.
I thought 135 would link to Gold Pill.
Speaking of the spark going out, it turns out that Terry Pratchett has been diagnosed with a rare form of early-onset Alzheimer's. So yeah, live it up, kids.
138: I was really impressed by his attitude in the post breaking the news.
What a rotten, terrible, awful thing to happen.
On the subject of declining mental abilities. There's a program on PBS tonight called, "Brain Fitness." It's supposed to help with declining cognitive capabilities that frequently come with aging, not Alzheimer's, just the more everyday, run-of-the-mill stuff many people experience. I frequently feel that my brain, which was never great, is getting worse. As an example, various types of organization are not my strong suit. Apparently, they offer exercises and everything. Is this all bullshit? Where is cerebrocrat when we need him?
the orgasm (which the French correctly call la petite mort)
I never understood why that is supposed to be such a brilliant euphemism. It seems to me like the mot juste would be "la grande éternuement".
No more masturbating to Ike Turner.
Shit. You know, while there are certainly better writers out there, some people, you read their stuff and you end up liking them personally. (Oh, probably delusionally, but you know what I mean.) What a rotten thing to happen to someone who just seems awfully likable. (And who I've enjoyed reading a whole lot.)
My understanding is that certain mental "exercises" are effective, while others are not. For instance, crosswords improve/extend mental agility, whereas sudoku doesn't.
No, it's grim, and he is being graceful.
146: Do you think Tina is having a high time tonight?
No more masturbating to Ike Turner.
I was amazed to learn that he was 76. Now that makes me feel old.
I remember from the profiles—Saturday Evening Post late sixties?—that Ike was substantially older than she was.
So forty years ago, he was 36 and she was 28. Seemed big to me at the time, in my callow cohortism.
Of the two, the kid is both easier and more fun than the dissertation.
I never understood why that is supposed to be such a brilliant euphemism.
Orgasm was, in the past, widely supposed to shorten one's life.
I defended, started a real job, and had a kid all within 3 weeks. You'll have to inspect my eyes to see if I've lost the spark.
Shorter Ogged: We mustn't waste our precious bodily fluids.
pomegranate juice is useful to prevent dementia
it turns out that Terry Pratchett has been diagnosed with a rare form of early-onset Alzheimer's
Agh, that's terrible.
For what it's worth, I'd say it's a class marker to maintain that spark beyond about seven or so.
162: pomegranate juice is useful to prevent dementia
Properly used, hemlock is much more effective.
165
the purported poison used in the execution of Socrates
wikipedia says
166
please stop
commenting
in this inane
fashion
oh, wait, if the spark is ambition to take the world by storm as opposed to day-to-day sparkliness I still have it, but it's flickering ominously.
Clearly the spark goes out at the same time that your dæmon stops changing.
If the passing of the spark means that grown people will stop playing dodgeball and eating cupcakes, then go gentle into that good night, spark.
On the plus side, having kids wear me down to dust has kept me from thinking about going back to school.
Word. It seems that most careers are way overrated. People making decent money, but spending ungodly amounts of time in the office doing stuff they don't like. I'm thinking I might go apply to a couple police departments. My brother seems to be enjoying it, and those guys get good retirement pretty early.
That's a difficult question. I can only recommend reading other people's comments (probably not mine) and looking at which are laughed, applauded as insightful, lead a thread in a good direction, or otherwise have a positive effect.
173
thank you for insights
that was a great lesson
i'll try my best
etc
Losers always whine about their best.
Winners go home and fuck the prom queen.
174:Pssst, read. Fuck em they can't take a joke. In the long strings of cock jokes and sexism snark often the irrelevant pedantry is the only thing that makes me laugh.
167: I actually often enjoy looking at those comments that come across as efforts in free verse (and read isn't alone in doing this.) Not that I'd like all comments to be like that, but still.
69: Benjamin, my prodigal child, "onset" is a medical term of art: "The time of appearance of the first symptoms of a condition, prior to seeking diagnosis". As senility is a progressive condition, and the onset thereof can take some years, it does, indeed, "begin".