Re: By Popular Demand

1

Gravel all the way!

I still am very torn between Obama and Edwards. Not that I'll have any say in it, with the primary schedule being how it is.


Posted by: Matt F | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 11:57 AM
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Wait, where are Catherine and Kriston? This ballot is useless.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 11:58 AM
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For Catherine, select Hunter. For Kriston, select Tancredo.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 11:59 AM
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I think I broke it.


Posted by: mike d | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 12:00 PM
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Huh; I was going to ask who voted for Tancredo, and then I saw 3.


Posted by: pdf23ds | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 12:01 PM
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That vote for Richardson wasn't me, btw.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 12:02 PM
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Though I probably am responsible for any votes that Hunter and Tancredo get.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 12:03 PM
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I think I broke it.

mike d is the ronpaulbottiest.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 12:03 PM
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Unfogged is really a two-way race, huh?


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 12:03 PM
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The Tancredo vote was there before comment 3 was posted.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 12:03 PM
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9: Racist.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 12:04 PM
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10: Guess I'm off the hook then.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 12:04 PM
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Tancredo would amuse me if he weren't so vile. His state has something like 150,000 illegal immigrants, like maybe 3% of the population, yet he's the loudest screecher about being overrun by Mexicans and foreigners... could his state be any more white?

I'm torn between Obama and Dodd, but it will likely be decided by the time I vote.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 12:04 PM
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I'm surprised Dodd isn't doing better.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 12:05 PM
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I don't remember demanding this.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 12:05 PM
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14: In this poll, or nationally?


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 12:06 PM
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His state has something like 150,000 illegal immigrants, like maybe 3% of the population, yet he's the loudest screecher about being overrun by Mexicans and foreigners... could his state be any more white?

Colorado has a long history of really virulent racism, mostly directed against Hispanics.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 12:06 PM
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I know Biden is good on all issues except that he supports the ability of financial corporations to infinitely cheat people. Is Dodd different from in this respect, despite all the Wall Street money in Connecticut? Is Delaware a special case?


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 12:07 PM
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They are like Smallville freaking out about the threat of terrorism to their local library. "You don't understand what it's like being overrun, you couldn't, you don't live near them," they sob. Fucking racist whiners shouldn't dominate politics.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 12:08 PM
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Do the furrners get to vote?


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 12:09 PM
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Had I known you were all a bunch of Dodd-lovers, I would have tried to get an interview with him for the blog.


Posted by: Becks | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 12:09 PM
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I voted for Tancredo before any of the comments were up. This blog needs a strong anti-immigrant voice. I'm tired of all the lifeguards being taken; tired of autocockblocking; tired of blacked-out beemers; tired of weird body hair. I want my country back.


Posted by: FL | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 12:09 PM
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Is Delaware a special case?

Yes, to some extent, given that it contains the headquarters of a lot of major corporations.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 12:09 PM
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Dodd's been the one consistently hammering on the expanse of executive power and lawbreaking. I'm so grateful to hear that that I wouldn't mind if he gave Greenwich extra money to wallpaper their summer homes.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 12:09 PM
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(BTW, M/M/ & I just debated, inconclusively, how "furrners" should be spelled. How should it be, for maxium clarity?)


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 12:10 PM
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Is Delaware a special case?

Delaware does have a history of being unusually corporate-friendly (see DuPont, MBNA, etc.)


Posted by: Matt F | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 12:10 PM
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Isn't Delaware that state that's somehow legally extra-friendly to corporations, such that a huge number of them are technically headquartered there, even though they aren't?


Posted by: pdf23ds | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 12:10 PM
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I'm tired of all the lifeguards being taken; tired of autocockblocking; tired of blacked-out beemers; tired of weird body hair. I want my country back.

Hear, hear!


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 12:10 PM
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Somehow I knew Labs would vote for Tancredo.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 12:10 PM
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Do the furrners get to vote?

I hope that I am the only one who sees "Sir Kraab" and hears a voice shout "SPONGE BOB SQUARE PANTS!!"


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 12:11 PM
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Yeah, I'm cranky b/c grading.


Posted by: FL | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 12:11 PM
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Fourinuurrs.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 12:12 PM
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The second Richardson vote isn't mine either.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 12:12 PM
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22: I tried to use the term "autocockblock" last Friday. It required some explanation.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 12:12 PM
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The way I usually see it is "furriners".


Posted by: pdf23ds | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 12:12 PM
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Do the furrners get to vote?

Depends on the election. Some local stuff is usually okay, but even registering to vote can get you in trouble if you misrepresent yourself as being a citizen. There's been a lot of canvassing in our neighborhood lately and our mantra has been "Already registered/Canadian!"


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 12:13 PM
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Yes, to some extent, given that it contains the headquarters of a lot of major corporations.

I thought Connecticut did too, because my friend went there to work for Ætna and there's all those hedge funds. But maybe that's not representative.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 12:13 PM
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Wow, these are pretty much my dream results for the Democrat primaries. I'll now go daydream for a bit about Obama and Edwards nearly splitting the vote.


Posted by: Po-Mo Polymath | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 12:13 PM
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22: I tried to use the term "autocockblock" last Friday. It required some explanation.

More than "What I just did to myself"?


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 12:13 PM
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OK teo, 25 words or less, what's wrong w/ Richardson, and would he be good vp material?


Posted by: I don't pay | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 12:13 PM
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legally extra-friendly to corporations

Yeah. They have no corporate income tax, and more importantly they repealed or weakened most of their usury laws way back, so credit card companies chartered there can charge pretty much whatever interest rate they want.


Posted by: Matt F | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 12:14 PM
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Dodd's platform is pretty narrow. I think he's shooting for a VP nod and omigodsqueee I hope someone picks him up.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 12:14 PM
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I thought Connecticut did too

Half of all publicly traded corporations in the U.S. are headquartered in Delaware.


Posted by: Matt F | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 12:14 PM
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The wording of the question is key. I voted Dodd, because he seems like the best person for the job. But in the real world, I'm voting for either Obama or Edwards, because they can beat Clinton.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 12:17 PM
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Isn't Delaware that state that's somehow legally extra-friendly to corporations, such that a huge number of them are technically headquartered there, even though they aren't?

Yes, they've historically had very management-friendly courts. Probably the worst state for shareholder rights in the US, though I'm not as sure about their consumer protections. Also, they're now just the most experienced court in the land for stuff like merger, acquisition and valuation disputes, which is mighty handy when you want a reliably technocratic judge handing down something approximating Solomonic wisdom.


Posted by: Po-Mo Polymath | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 12:19 PM
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No Clinton at all?


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 12:20 PM
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39: Redundant, SCMT. "What I just did."


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 12:20 PM
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This poll is alphabeto-normative, and gives a discriminatory advantage to Biden.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 12:22 PM
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46: Not surprising. Read the comments on this blog and you'll see that Hillary attracts considerably more contempt than Tancredo.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 12:23 PM
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OK teo, 25 words or less, what's wrong w/ Richardson, and would he be good vp material?

He's quite conservative on many issues, particularly economic, and isn't much of a campaigner. Not terrible veep material, but there are better choices.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 12:23 PM
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Connecticut is the home of America's hedge fund industry, which is a lot different from Delaware, the titular home of most large American companies. Delaware also has dickish speed traps as you approach Bethany Beach. Down with Biden, and an end to speed-trapping Bidenism!


Posted by: snarkout | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 12:24 PM
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I voted for Dodd, but on another day it could have been Edwards. Being the default choice does not seem to benefit Biden.


Posted by: asl | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 12:27 PM
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I CANNOT VOTE WITHOUT KNOWING IF THOMPSON IS FRED OR THAT OTHER GUY

WE NEED TO KEEP OUR OPTIONS OPEN AND NOT BE FOOLED BY SEMANTICS


Posted by: OPINIONATED GRANDMA | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 12:28 PM
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Get with the times, Grandma. Tommy Thompson dropped out in August.


Posted by: Otto von Bisquick | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 12:29 PM
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49: I had expected that there were supporters who had been driven underground.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 12:29 PM
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You cannot vote repeatedly.

Even for different people? This isn't fair!


Posted by: mano negra | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 12:29 PM
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There was New Republic article a few years ago featuring the myriad ways Delaware sucks.

The organizing principle of Delaware government is to subsidize its people at the rest of the country's expense. While tolls represent the most obvious of the state's nefarious methods, Delaware also utilizes its appallingly lax regulation of banks and corporations to enrich itself while undermining its neighbors. Indeed, Delaware's image as small and inoffensive is not merely a misconception but a purposeful guise. It presents itself as a plucky underdog peopled by a benevolent, public-spirited, entrepreneurial citizenry. In truth, it is a rapacious parasite state with a long history of disloyalty and avarice.

Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 12:30 PM
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isn't much of a campaigner

This is the key. He's terrible on television, and when he speaks off the cuff, all his campaign staff tenses up and holds their breath.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 12:30 PM
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57 is awesome.

56: I tried to throw a second vote to Kucinich after voting Edwards, but I was foiled by the system. I'm too lazy to open up another browser (would that even do it?) or some other hacktaculism.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 12:33 PM
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Is Delaware a special case?

In addition to being corporation-friendly in general, Delaware is one of several states which specifically changed laws to lure credit card companies back in the day. An article on it from the NY Times back in 1981.

These powers include the ability to charge interest rates not subject to any legal ceiling, to raise interest rates retroactively, to charge variable interest rates, to levy unlimited fees for credit card usage and to foreclose on a home in the event of default for credit card debts.

Since it involved companies "moving" from NY to Delaware the Times was a bit less of a financial sector cheerleader than usual in htis case.

- The legislation was drafted in private over a period of six months by lawyers for two large New York banks, the Chase Manhattan Bank and J.P. Morgan & Company, without any written analysis by any Delaware official involved.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 12:34 PM
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55: Only a despicable non-Hillary-hater could think that pro-Hillary commenters get shouted down here. You moron.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 12:36 PM
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57: Aha. Here it is in readable form. Delaware in all of its glory.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 12:37 PM
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My aunt describes Delaware as "a legal fiction."


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 12:41 PM
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There are several clues in Fight Club that it is set in Wilmington, Delaware.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 12:44 PM
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Chait's piece made me sad. If he'd escaped bondage to Martin Peretz, Chait would have been a contender.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 12:47 PM
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Thank you, Ogged, for addressing this matter of urgent public interest.

And: Clinton is running behind Tancredo?

Or: Clinton is running behind Kriston?


Posted by: Chris Conway | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 1:10 PM
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I wonder if folks here have been influenced by Krugman away from Obama and towards Edwards?


Posted by: Chris Conway | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 1:12 PM
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66: No, Clinton and Tancredo are tied now.

67: I may have been.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 1:46 PM
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Have I mentioned here yet that bombing Wilmington and Hartford are the pillars of my economic program? Vote me!


Posted by: Mo MacArbie | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 1:49 PM
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I want to stop Hilary so badly, but it's so hard to choose between Edwards and Obama. Edwards seems better on a lot of issues. Edwards, Clinton and Kucinich were the only candidates who showed up at a forum on global warming, which makes me lean towards Edwards. And I hate hearing ads from Obama where he talks about taking on Big Pharma even when his health care plan does no such thing. In fact, Matthew Holt of the Health Care Blog and Spot-On says that he doesn't think that Obama would do anything about healthcare, because he'd prioritize fixing the economic mess caused by the mortgage meltdown and the Iraq war over healthcare. This makes me want to vote for Edwards, because I think he gets that Americans will only support the kind of change required to get universal healthcare when they're feeling the pain themselves, i.e. during a bad economic downturn. I think that you could even make a case that so many soldiers and reservists wind up ineligible for for VA benefits that the best way to help our troops is to make the system truly universal. But sometimes Obama just seems so much smarter than Edwards. Sigh.


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 1:55 PM
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I can see what they mean by how people like us might underestimate HRC's appeal. This poll is certainly helping us do that.

Come on, people, come over from Bphd's blog and give HRC some support!


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 2:00 PM
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But sometimes Obama just seems so much smarter than Edwards.

I haven't seen any evidence of this, but then I'm used to southern accents.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 2:04 PM
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If John Edward becomes president he will have the added ability to communicate with deceased presidents of the past for wise counsel on the tough decisions.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 2:05 PM
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We should let bots vote in this too. Voting rights for all!


Posted by: PerfectlyGoddamnDelightful | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 2:06 PM
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73: The same is true of Edward Johns.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 2:07 PM
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Where's the "Al Gore" option?


Posted by: zadfrack | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 2:09 PM
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Get with the times, Grandma. Tommy Thompson dropped out in August.

Ageist.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 2:14 PM
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I actually think that Biden has made a strong case for himself for VP - he's the classic "attack dog" VP candidate. Did you see him calling out Guiliani? I don't actually think that any of the frontrunners have the ability to put an R in his place - Hillary isn't smooth enough, and Edwards and Obama are both too smooth. I think Dodd deserves to be rewarded for being the Candidate of the Constitution, but I'm not sure that the VP role applies his strengths.

Plus he strikes me as a bit of an old-school creep WRT the laydeez.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 2:19 PM
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I wonder if folks here have been influenced by Krugman away from Obama and towards Edwards?

I'll cop to this. But I still cling to the hope that Obama is just mollifying whitey, and that he'll deliver his inaugural address in a getup like this.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 2:24 PM
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Nah, I think the best qualification for Veep is either an Ohio or Florida home address.


Posted by: Mo MacArbie | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 2:26 PM
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JRoth--Only Lieberman is less deserving of the label "Democrat." Just remember the bankruptcy bill.

apo--Regional prejudice may explain part of it, and I may, however unwittingly, have bought into the anti-trial lawyer stuff. I like Edwards' populism, but every now and again he says something which makes me think that he doesn't understand markets, and that concerns me. Calls to release petroleum reserves just strike me as silly.


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 2:27 PM
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I wonder if folks here have been influenced by Krugman away from Obama and towards Edwards

Being a hater & all, I didn't require much influencing. Obama has always been near the bottom of my list.

But for those not convinced by Krugman, are you seriously planning on voting for Andrew Sullivan's favorite Democrat? Does that not give you pause?

I have seen a lot of stupid, even homophobic explanations for Sullivan's intensified Clinton-loathing, but the simplest to me is that he wants Obama to get the nomination and HRC is Obama's toughest competition.

I gotta ask myself:What does "small government" Sullivan like about Obama anyway?


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 2:35 PM
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Well, I just drooped an embarrassngly large chunk of cash on Edwards. I'll probably regret it tomorrow, but eh, you are only young once.


Posted by: Saheli | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 2:39 PM
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But for those not convinced by Krugman, are you seriously planning on voting for Andrew Sullivan's favorite Democrat? Does that not give you pause?

It does, but then I consider that the alternative would be voting for mcmanus's favorite Democrat. And then I don't feel so bad about it.


Posted by: zadfrack | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 2:43 PM
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Only Lieberman is less deserving of the label "Democrat."

Ben Nighthorse Campbell. Possibly Dianne Feinstein.

I just drooped an embarrassngly large chunk of cash

Droopy cash spends the same as crisp bills.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 2:46 PM
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Di-Fi's bad, but she's no Liberman.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 2:48 PM
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Edwards is less articulate than Obama, but let's not be bigots about this.

Me, Petey, and McManus all on the same page. That's some industrial strength Kumbaya for ya.

(Contrary to popular opinion, McManus and I disagree a lot. We just have equivalent vehemence.)



Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 2:51 PM
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85: Ben Nighthorse Campbell hasn't been a Democrat since the mid-90s, right?


Posted by: zadfrack | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 2:51 PM
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88: Not only that, he hasn't been in office since 2004. I retract the counterexample.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 2:54 PM
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Edwards is less articulate than Obama

RACIST!


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 2:56 PM
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Apo isn't articulate, but he has a good vertical jump and he really can dance.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 3:00 PM
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Only when he's drunk, though.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 3:02 PM
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he has a good vertical jump

Least true statement in the history of Unfogged.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 3:04 PM
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Least true statement in the history of Unfogged.

102 in this thread says you're wrong.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 3:09 PM
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Also, he's really large, IYKWIM.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 3:10 PM
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95: That's based on a different set of prejudices, John.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 3:11 PM
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John Edwards? Seriously? Please explain, o friends of the Left, how this can be.


Posted by: baa | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 3:20 PM
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Obama is supported by Andrew Sullivan. Republicans hawks are supported by Andrew Sullivan. Therefore Obama is a Republican hawk.
Oh, sorry, wrong thread.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 3:27 PM
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We do not expect you to understand, baa.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 3:30 PM
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Kobe!


Posted by: m. leblanc | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 3:31 PM
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Please explain, o friends of the Left, how this can be.

He cares about poor people?


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 3:38 PM
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And working people generally even if not poor.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 3:39 PM
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We do not expect you to understand, baa.

But in the spirit of comity, which candidate do you think fed up Democrats should be supporting?


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 3:39 PM
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He's rejected the idiotic concept that we're engaged in a 'Global War On Terror' that justifies whatever cockamamie thing some nitwit in power wants to do next.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 3:41 PM
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He spent the last two years on a poor people's campaign that had union organizing as one of its main features. No American with as high a profile has done that since Martin Luther King Jr. got gunned down by the side of the striking Memphis sanitation workers. He has also rejected the "war on terror" rhetorically and conceptually and has been the most comprehending of and resistant to the right wing as a social movement.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 3:41 PM
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Refinement pwnage!


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 3:41 PM
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He cares about poor people?

In all seriousness, this is it for me. He's been talking about poverty since his '94 run for the Senate, when nobody else in the party would even mention it.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 3:42 PM
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He understands that the insurance companies are the fucking enemy and are THE LAST PEOPLE ON EARTH who should have any say over health care funding.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 3:43 PM
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109

He wants all of our combat troops out of Iraq in under a year.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 3:45 PM
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He is aware that corporations do not necessarily share any goals at all with the actual humans they interact with, and that because they see themselves as having infinite lifespans, corporations have a bias toward refusing to ever compromise in negotiations except when forming cartels with each other.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 3:49 PM
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The key issue for me is: Who drags the debate away from the crazy Republican frame of reference. So what folks say above about Edwards also goes for me: He regards poor people as being worth talking about. He thinks the ludicrous nature of the War on Terror frame is worth talking about.

This is how change begins. The elimination of the estate tax was once a gleam in Reagan's eye, but it happened because he was willing to talk about it. Counterproductive, bellicose international actions were something Reagan was willing to talk about, and he paved the way for W.

Hillary and Obama are still talking about Iranian sponsorship of terrorism or the Social Security crisis. Edwards understands that to be an agent of change, the first thing you have to do is make real change an acceptable topic of conversation.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 3:50 PM
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baa, I would add to apo's question in 103: Which candidate (on either side of the aisle) do you think merits support from wise voters at this moment in history?


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 3:53 PM
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Hmmm, Tancredo is ahead of Clinton again. He also has more votes than all other non-libertarian Republicans put together.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 3:56 PM
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Who the hell around here is voting for Tancredo? People, the "Ogged is Mexican" thing is just a joke.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 3:58 PM
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115

See comment 3.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 4:00 PM
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114: I think you are showing admirable restraint by not speculating on baa's role in the Tancredo surge.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 4:00 PM
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Isn't baa a McCain man?


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 4:01 PM
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Oh. Well, in that case, Kriston's stock has fallen sharply.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 4:01 PM
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You know what's funny? I don't have any strong sense at all as to which candidate a reasonably sensible conservative of baa's stamp would be likely to vote for. Giuliani, maybe?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 4:03 PM
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I like to think that baa is going to vote for a Democrat when the time comes.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 4:04 PM
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I like to believe in fairies, but c'mon.


Posted by: slolernr | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 4:07 PM
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119: Romney?

Seeing 120 on preview, I think that "sensible conservatives" of LB's description will vote Democratic - but I know a lot who won't, and I don't get it. Hence my effort to draw out baa on this subject.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 4:11 PM
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I believe in fairies and I believe in baa. Draw your own conclusions.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 4:11 PM
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There does appear to be a McCain vote, as well as a Giuliani vote.

"vote" here meaning a single vote, not "category of voters".


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 4:12 PM
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I believe in fairies and I believe in baa. Draw your own conclusions.

Baa is a fairy!


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 4:13 PM
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I believe in fairies and I believe in baa. Draw your own conclusions.

You're saying fairies are fascist, aren't you.


Posted by: slolernr | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 4:14 PM
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Why is it that Fred Thompson has not wowed female voters with his strong, stoic attitude like he did Chris Matthews? What's wrong with them, don't they recognize a sexy father figure when they see one?


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 4:19 PM
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baa praised Obama once.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 4:21 PM
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114:There might have been a vote for "heightening the contradictions."


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 4:51 PM
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Dodd has apparently gotten Reid to stop trying to pass the FISA immunity thing. Check out agonist.org for links to stories.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 6:50 PM
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So first, thank you all for answering. Ogged is of course correct that I am supporting John McCain. Those of you who have a strong "inevitable disaster" as opposed to "disaster caused by our own blundering and incompetence" view of the Iraq war will of course differ. He's also right that I could easily end up voting democratic in this election. Outside of McCain the GOP offers a choice between the likable and out-of-his-depth, the soulless ambition-driven automaton, and a man truly unsuited by temperament to be president.

Were I voting in the Democratic side, I'd take Obama in a heartbeat. It's hard for me to reject a genuinely transformational figure for someone who seems to be as thoroughly false as Edwards. Bear in mind that the fine points of lefty dialectic are lost on me. To me these are all guys who are going to nominate judges who think there's a right to suicide in the constitution and who think, at some instinctive level, that the government creates prosperity. I'm not on that bandwagon. I am on the "America achieving the greatness that is its promise" bandwagon, and in that regard, a president who a) is obviously not consumed by us-vs-them thinking and b) would be a sterling exemplar of American values to the world is an easy sell. And this would be true even if, as the first black president, Obama would not be, by default, a world-historical figure.

As for Edwards, he just strikes me as a light weight and a phony: phony in his lately adopted leftism, phony in pitiful bleating that his support for the Iraq war was based upon a deception. Maybe his much-expressed concern for the poor is real. But I doubt he will, as a matter of policy do anything differently than the other candidates would, and he's far less experienced (even than Obama, which is saying something), and not nearly the inspirational communicator Obama is.


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 6:54 PM
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Well, if you think he's a phony, then you think he's a phony.

It does seem obvious that McCain is the only Republican who is not a phony, so that makes sense.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 6:58 PM
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131 is me, in case anyone could have been confused...


Posted by: baa | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 7:06 PM
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McCain is the only Republican who is not a phony

O RLY?


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 7:06 PM
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McCain is also generally considered to be a phony by the hard-core conservatives who constitute the Republican base.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 7:07 PM
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who think, at some instinctive level, that the government creates prosperity

This is such a fabulously ridiculous canard that I feel compelled to highlight it.


Posted by: slolernr | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 7:09 PM
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a fabulously ridiculous canard

Surely in the land of hyperbole-for-humorous effect I get some kind of pass for this. I would have accepted accept fabulous, ridiculous, or canard individually, but not all three. Certainly, I will not be surprised if many exciting discussions of the wide applicability of Card and Krueger (or freely substitute "excessive pharmaceutical profits") lie in our future.

Returning briefly to the merits, will you at admit that "will nominate judges who believe the constitution contains a right to assisted suicide" is essentially the gospel truth?


Posted by: baa | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 7:19 PM
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I am on the "America achieving the greatness that is its promise" bandwagon

I guess that bandwagon calls itself that, but for anybody not on that bandwagon, it looks pretty clear that it would more accurately be called the "We're Gonna Kill Us a Whopping Lot of People and Dictate Their Government to Them Because We're America, Goddammit" bandwagon. I suppose somebody has to ride that train, but it sure isn't engendering much goodwill. And I'd argue it has been a pretty steady source of malevolence for a long, long time.

Your mileage may vary.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 7:21 PM
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will you at admit that "will nominate judges who believe the constitution contains a right to assisted suicide" is essentially the gospel truth?

I don't know and, in all honest seriousness, I don't care. I am hoping for some judges who will rule that the President does not have an unreviewable authority to detain anyone he pleases without charges, a trial, or access to counsel.


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 7:26 PM
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Just so you know, Apo the achieving its promise is more the "I have a dream"/"America is about everyone getting a shot" aspect that Obama brings. But if national greatness reads as indiscriminate slaughter, then that would indeed be a reason to nominate McGovern again.


Posted by: baa | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 7:27 PM
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will you at admit that "will nominate judges who believe the constitution contains a right to assisted suicide" is essentially the gospel truth?

I doubt it, given the piety of the three main nominees. I would accept "will nominate judges who believe the constitution contains a right to murder foetuses," if it will make you feel better.

And it was a fabulously ridiculous canard. You'd have to go to maybe Henry Wallace to find a Democrat who seriously believed that.


Posted by: slolernr | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 7:29 PM
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if national greatness reads as indiscriminate slaughter, then that would indeed be a reason to nominate McGovern again

See, if you're against indiscriminate slaughter, I don't see how you can be for McCain.


Posted by: slolernr | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 7:30 PM
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I am hoping for some judges who will rule that the President does not have an unreviewable authority to detain anyone he pleases without charges, a trial, or access to counsel.

Yes please! If you could send those along right away, that would be lovely.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 7:34 PM
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140: if national greatness reads as indiscriminate slaughter ...

Hmm. I gotta grant that you understand my liberal position better than I understand your conservative one. Surely you acknowledge the slaughter. In what sense has McCain/Bush-style "national greatness" resulted in discriminating slaughter?

Anyway, why does McCain get credit for authenticity where Huckabee doesn't? Why does McCain get credit for his "national greatness" stance when he, unlike Giuliani, has undercut our men and women in uniform by suggesting that their aggressive interrogation techniques constitute torture?


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 7:35 PM
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if national greatness reads as indiscriminate slaughter

"National greatness" is a slogan. I'm looking at the actual history of those who have espoused it, and it's ugly and bloody. None of the candidates on the Democratic side are McGovern. Hell, George McGovern wasn't the caricature of McGovern that currently exists.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 7:36 PM
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And how long was Wallace a Democrat, anyway? I think he joined FDR's cabinet as a Republican, and was back out of the party by '48 at least.


Posted by: I don't pay | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 7:37 PM
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will nominate judges who believe the constitution contains a right to assisted suicide

I hereby vow to vote for any candidate that makes this part of their platform.


Posted by: CJB | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 8:15 PM
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131:I liked 131 by baa. Disagreed with every word including all articles and prepositions, but felt it was truly conservative.

That many "conscience conservatives" like Charles of ObsWi are supporting John McCain while the rest of their party has left them behind is interesting. And lots of fun.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 8:25 PM
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147: Is the White Panther party still around?


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 8:27 PM
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Is the White Panther party still around?

Never heard of them before, had to look it up on Wikipedia, so I don't know. Sounds like a party bob might be able to get behind though.


Posted by: CJB | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 8:33 PM
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Ok, let me abandon whimsy for a moment.

1. No, obviously assisted suicide and state ownership of industry are not the positions of any of the top 3 Democratic candidates. I had hoped that "lefty dialectics" was enough of signal of hyperbole to make that obvious. Rather, I was making amused reference to the democratic predilection for a) judges who rule expansively on social issues, and b) relative distaste, vs. the GOP for laissez faire on economic isses. Surely neither of these are in dispute. Next time, I will try to prevent confusion by avoiding hyperbole which is amusing-to-me (and perhaps me alone). But, let me add, Jesus Christ!
2. I was stunned when Apo moved from my line "America achieving its promise" -- written in the context of an Obama presidency (!!) -- to the idea that this just means killing foreigners. Surely any patriot -- American, Turkish, whatever -- hopes their country will "achieve its promise." In the case of the US, it's pretty remarkable to see a black candidate 50 years post Jim Crow. All men are created equal/I have a dream, all those secular scriptures, etc. We all have, I hope, some measure of idealism left. Is that idealism often a tool of the immoral and unscrupulous? Sure.
3. If anyone wants to know how can support for McCain be reconciled with opposition to indiscriminate slaughter, email me. That one I won't touch in this forum.


Posted by: baa | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 9:02 PM
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...will nominate judges who believe the constitution contains a right to assisted suicide

I hereby vow to vote for any candidate that makes this part of their platform.

Me too! I'm mostly skeptical about nationalising industry, though.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 9:18 PM
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I am not EVEN going to read this thread, but y'all should check out today's Red State Update. Hang in until the very last line, which makes the entire piece.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 9:20 PM
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baa, I'll give you $5 to vote for Kucinich.


Posted by: Michael | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 9:37 PM
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Well, good, John Edwards has a future as President of Unfogged.com.


Posted by: Anderson | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 9:58 PM
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I was stunned when Apo moved from my line "America achieving its promise"

I didn't catch the reference, and reading quickly equated it with "national greatness conservatism", for which McCain has long stood. I'll bet you were stunned.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 10:22 PM
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So is it too late to convince everybody that Obama's totally awesome and really liberal and everything? And not even black in the don't-vote-for-him way you're thinking?

Also, yay! Electability!

Yeah, I suppose it is too late, at that.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 10:24 PM
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I like Obama. It's Obama or Dodd for me.

Edwards sets off my Southerners = BAD reflex. I have manufactured some policy-based excuses for not liking him, but I think it's probably a regional prejudice thing. I'm not going to get over it.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 10:27 PM
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Today, I went to the Edwards site and donated twice what I had given before. My previous donation went through ActBlue. The FEC has disallowed matching funds for such donations. So I figured I would do my own matching, plus some.

After today, I might give some money to Dodd too.


Posted by: md 20/400 | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 10:28 PM
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my Southerners = BAD reflex

Do Carter, Clinton, and Gore, too?


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 10:29 PM
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Gore seems okay, especially when he talks fast.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 10:30 PM
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And you're fine, Apo, because you talk dirty.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 10:31 PM
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Well, no reason to get over it in terms of this election, but probably worth getting over just in terms of being a decent person and all.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 10:32 PM
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So is it too late to convince everybody that Obama's totally awesome and really liberal and everything?

I tried, Sifu.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 10:32 PM
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because you talk dirty.

Hmm. I figured maybe I just didn't type with a southern accent.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 10:33 PM
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How do you know Gore doesn't talk dirty?

You need to join the blogs where he comments.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 10:34 PM
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Carter is dirty at least in his heart.


Posted by: Michael Vanderwheel, B.A. | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 10:35 PM
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you're fine, Apo, because you talk dirty.

All southerners do that.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 10:36 PM
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I was overgeneralising, I'm sorry. It's just exactly the warm, folksy moments to which other people seem to respond that repell me about Edwards. It's way too visceral a reaction to be anything other than deep-rooted prejudice, I feel.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 10:37 PM
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All southerners do that.

Not my grandma.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 10:39 PM
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Yes she does.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 10:41 PM
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Oh right. To Jews, sure.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 10:42 PM
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It's just exactly the warm, folksy moments to which other people seem to respond that repell me

I tend to agree. It isn't the accent. It is the trying to stir up emotion in that folksy manner. I feel that they are trying too hard and so I suspect them. I prefer drier, less emotional. I agree these biases aren't reliable and I try not to let them run the show. I do support Edwards and for more than his personal story.


Posted by: md 20/400 | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 10:44 PM
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B was mostly right in 153: it's kind of a throwaway last line, but still awesome.


Posted by: washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 10:47 PM
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baa, I'll give you $5 to vote for Kucinich.

Make it $20 and you're on.


Posted by: baa | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 10:52 PM
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It's awesome *because* they throw it away.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 10:52 PM
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Well, I'll pitch $5 into the baa/Kucinich pot.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 10:55 PM
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(Actually this is illegal, isn't it?)


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 10:56 PM
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BUSTED


Posted by: FEC | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 10:59 PM
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I was about to mention the illegality, but thought I'd be being too earnest. Also, I don't think vote buying and selling is under the FEC's purview, though ex recto it might be if a campaign were buying and selling votes.


Posted by: washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 11:02 PM
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Also Mass. has a closed primary and I assume baa is a registered Republican. And a vote for Kucinich is wasted, the only vote worth buying is for whichever Democrat has the best chance of beating Hillary on 2/5, and we don't know who that is yet. But it's most likely Obama.


Posted by: washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 11:04 PM
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A vote for Kucinich may be wasted (and I don't like him anyway), but it's one less vote for McCain.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 11:11 PM
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I'll give baa 10 RonPaulDollars and 5 SchruteBucks to switch his registration and vote for Cynthia McKinney.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 11:12 PM
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I haven't seen polling, but won't Romney win the Mass. Republican primary?


Posted by: washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 11:12 PM
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Massachusetts has an open primary if you're unenrolled. For $20, it's the Leprachaun, for $100, the Unfogged community can pick my vote. Is this a bargain or what?


Posted by: baa | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 11:16 PM
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Obviously, baa only cares about the super-wealthy. I'll do it for nudie pics.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 11:17 PM
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Of Cynthia McKinney.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 11:18 PM
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I'm actually horrified. I can't imagine voting for, say, Tancredo for $100. And I've taken money for sex, even.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 11:18 PM
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Well jeepers, let me put a David Duke rider in their. You've got a sick mind, B.


Posted by: baa | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 11:19 PM
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And let me ask the question in everyone's mind: how much?


Posted by: baa | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 11:20 PM
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How much sex would we have to give you for a Tancredo vote, B.? We are but mortals after all.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 11:20 PM
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how much?

Just a little ass play.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 11:21 PM
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190: Not enough, let's just say.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 11:23 PM
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For $20, it's the Leprachaun

Geez, talk about your interstate inequities. Kucinich votes are a dime a dozen out here.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 11:27 PM
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It's all about comparative advantage, Jesus.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 11:30 PM
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195: That's what Judas said.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 11:37 PM
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And he was right!


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 11:44 PM
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First McKinney, now jews killing Christ. Predictable.


Posted by: baa | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 11:44 PM
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C'mon baa, fight the power.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 12-17-07 11:56 PM
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Not that it makes up for all the bad things said about Delaware, but some of that state's denizens introduced me to a delicious breakfast item: Italian bread (rather than bagels) with cream cheese.

So that's something going for 'em.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 12-18-07 12:06 AM
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fight the power

straight up racist that sucker was simple and plain
motherfuck him and John McCain.


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 12-18-07 12:08 AM
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I really missed an opportunity to sign that comment Washer D. And of course, no offense to McCain supporters intended. His name just fit so well I couldn't resist.


Posted by: washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 12-18-07 12:15 AM
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How did Obama catch up in the poll? Did the fascists send out their crack blogging crew? Did Andrew Sullivan send his sex xlaves?


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 12-18-07 12:26 AM
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How did Obama catch up in the poll? Did the fascists send out their crack blogging crew? Did Andrew Sullivan send his sex xlaves?


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 12-18-07 12:26 AM
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