Did anybody ever watch the extras at the end of one of the early Sopranos seasons on DVD, with Peter Bogdanovitch (sp)? I have never seen a more cringe-inducing, hilarious set of questions about the vision and focus of a TV series. Only in this case, the visionary was patiently knocking down each attempt by the interviewer to make an over-the-top generalization/observation about the creative process.
Say what to the what now? OK, didactic, preachy, fine -- although I say this as someone who likes writers/directors who are frequently accused of this (see: Sayles, John). But where in Simon do you find a tendency toward "sentimental tripe"? This is an honest question. The Wire is not even a little sentimental, and Homicide not much. I've only seen like 4 episodes of Oz and nothing of The Corner.
The Wire is not even a little sentimental
Yes, this is my point. (Well, it's a little sentimental, but nevermind.)
OK, I will restate. I can get that one would find David Simon "preachy" based on his outside interviews and whatnot (I love his anti-NYC rant that Gawker put up today). But I don't see the Venn diagram overlay between his brand of preachy and "sentimental tripe." So I don't get where you are finding that sentiment whose excision from the show is the proof of something.
George Pelacanos
Shit, now I have to watch The Wire. I really like those of his novels which I've read.
So you're saying that I can't say that collaboration is keeping sentimental tripe out because there's no evidence that sentimental tripe would be in? I suppose that's fair. I won't try to defend myself by playing around with the meaning of "sentimental." I think the basic point that it doesn't suck because it's written collaboratively is sound.
6: Fair enough! My problem was just that I didn't see why someone who was "preachy" and "didactic" (for which there is evidence in Simon's persona, but I'd argue the show too, I just don't find it to be something unfailingly negative: I work on Greek drama, yo!) was also necessarily a source of gooey sentiment. I was wondering if somewhere something I hadn't seen of his -- precious moments in Oz? -- betrayed this.
People, ogged is trolling Simon so he shows up in comments. Let the man work.
I just want to rub his bald head, is that so wrong?
Since you're dredging up auteur theory, is there anywhere in the Simon oeuvre that you find him preaching or waxing sentimental? Which is to say, I agree, The Wire is his best work. But it's also everyone's best work when it comes to television. Ever. Perhaps it just took Simon this long to master the medium.* Or maybe I'm just re-stating Oudemia's point as a question. And also, sorry I can't italicize.
* I'm just being a jerk -- sort of -- as I agree that the collaboration likely helps. And Cala is so right in 7.
Tangentially OT: From a Google image search for "rub his bald head," this is either a very good photoshopping job or really freaky.
7/8: Stephan Wolfram really failed to learn this lesson.
I am trying to a meaning of "sentimental tripe" that would include the sentimentalities of misanthropes and pessimists. I have read some reviews of There Will Be Blood describing it as art-house formula pessimism.
Let's see, a classic scenario would be the criminal or junkie strugglling to escape his hostile environment, and at the moment of maximum redemption & hope, getting hit by a truck.
I wonder what conservative bloggers think of The Wire.
Speaking as a conservative blogger, I don't watch TV.
To repeat the "sentimental tripe" of a Bergman movie or Simon series is not going to look like the sentiment of Disney.
"It's all so absurd & pointless" is one of the prevailing sentiments of cynics.
I was wondering if and Match Point are sentimental tripe. I mean, we are supposed to cry over the injustice of it all, aren't we, like crying over Little Nell?
19:mistagged Crimes and Misdemeanors and it didn't appear in for of MP
Let's see, a classic scenario would be the criminal or junkie strugglling to escape his hostile environment, and at the moment of maximum redemption & hope, getting hit by a truck.
There's a Seinfeld episode like this, except it's a rickshaw.
This was an odd atlantic article on the Wire:
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200801/bowden-wire
George Pelacanos
I hate his novels. I like to think it's because I grew up in a poor neighborhood in a dying city, but it's probably just that his style isn't my cup of hipster.
Has there ever been a good TV show entirely scripted by one person? In any event, I think Simon (and Ed Burns, who is not a professional writer) comes up with the storiy lines and the rhetorical flourishes are provided by the stable of writers, if my recollection of most of the opening credits is correct.
Did you ever read Homicide, ogged? Because it's 100 percent Simon and not a whit sentimental. If anything, I think Burns and Fran Boyd (his consultants) and the writing staff temper what would otherwise be an unremitting, pessimistic determinism with something resembling humanity. Instead of the show being more sentimental, I think it'd far less.
God, I'm trying to remember. There was a show I followed (a few years back, a dozen, maybe) whose writer/show-vision-guy wrote all but one or two episodes of a season and got pretty burnt out in the process.
I want to say Babylon 5 or West Wing, and can't decide which would be more embarrassing. No reason it couldn't be both.
Wasn't Larry David pretty dominant in the Seinfeld writing process for most of the seasons? And of course he does all the "writing" for Curb.
The man's a hero.
More relevantly, I'm probably going to watch my first episode of The Wire later tonight, and I'm wondering how "knowing" it's the best show in history will affect the experience.
Wasn't Larry David pretty dominant in the Seinfeld writing process for most of the seasons?
I thought he dropped out about halfway through Seinfeld.
I don't know who is responsible for the chewy goodness of The Wire, but people can be strident lefty (or righty) critics without producing bad, didactic work.
Larry David left after season 7. It was really, really obvious. All of a sudden the show went from "implausible, but if these things really happened, that is EXACTLY how these characters would react" to "makes no sense at all".
I don't know who is responsible for the chewy goodness of The Wire, but people can be strident lefty (or righty) critics without producing bad, didactic work.
As a general rule, you should not chew on wires.
More relevantly, I'm probably going to watch my first episode of The Wire later tonight, and I'm wondering how "knowing" it's the best show in history will affect the experience.
Prediction: The first couple of episodes will strike you as oddly flat, overly busy, and unappealing. Then, about halfway through the first season, you will suddenly realize you have come to be deeply invested in these characters and their goals without quite realizing how it happened. From then on, you're hooked.
The thought that collaboratively-written shows avoid all sorts of problems would likely apply to all of them, not just The Wire, no?
I was a great fan of Six Feet Under, highly acclaimed etc. etc., and I see now that of its 63 episodes, just 9 were written by its creator, Alan Ball.
Shows featuring so-called ensemble casts are similarly superior to those that are just vehicles for a single star. Same principle.
Six Feet Under was so good that you can watch the six-minute series finale sequence without even knowing anything else about the show, and still be moved to tears.
27 - The BBC Army-vs-vampires show Ultraviolet (featuring Idris Elba as one of the good guys!)? It never had a second season because the show runner burned himself out writing the first.
33 is what happened to me with Homicide, the only drama TV show I've ever watched weekly. But after a while I realized that Richard Belzer was always there to remind me it was just a TV show.
37 - are there any more?
It seems like most good British shows are written by exactly two or three people, whereas in the US it takes about a dozen.
It seems like most good British shows are written by exactly two or three people, whereas in the US it takes about a dozen.
US shows also tend to have way more episodes.
4, 6: Collaborative writing repels tigers as well as sentimental tripe -- none of the staff on The Wire have ever been eaten by a tiger.
33: 29 is clearly looking for someone to manage his expectations. Good job, hero.
Yes, and the increased number of writers it requires leads to a distinctly more homogenized feel.
Of course, we learn from Adult Swim that our TV shows might be even worse if they were the brainchildren of lone geniuses.
Yeah, a series of a BBC show is frequently 6 or 8 episodes. (I think Ultraviolet was eight, but can't recall.) Doctor Who and the like max out at 13. Whereas a full season of network TV is, what, 22 episodes?
27: Sorkin wrote nearly all of seasons 1-4 of WW and seems uh maybe more prone to lifestyle excesses; JMS tended to write the first few and last few of each season of B5, but plenty of other writers filled in the middle episodes from his outlines.
33: Good. I have liked the first two episodes, but they have left me wondering if the pace ever picks up.
Buffy and Angel seemed to follow the pattern of Whedon writing a few of the signpost episodes, and the team of writers writing the rest.
One thing about The Wire that keeps it from being didactic is that it is so heavily researched; it's didactic the way a multi-part newspaper article is, which is to say it paints a didactic image using real life details. Because of that, the overall opinion isn't in your face the same way.
One cool (liberal white-guilt) Wire moment, though: we watched the first episode and afterwards shivbunny says something about one of the characters and I say 'who?' and he says 'the white guy', which is not a definite description that would normally let you pick out someone on a television show.
Six Feet Under was so good that you can watch the six-minute series finale sequence without even knowing anything else about the show, and still be moved to tears.
Shh, GB. People make fun of people for being moved by Six Feet Under. I cried helplessly through the entire series finale.
Wikipedia says Alan Ball has been involved in new projects, but I haven't determined whether any of them came to fruition. Some film critic on the radio a year or so ago was waxing awesome about how everyone in the industry was on the edge of their seats in anticipation. Forgot all about it until now.
Shh, GB. People make fun of people for being moved by Six Feet Under. I cried helplessly through the entire series finale.
Maybe the most unusual thing I've cried at in TV or the movies is when Randy Quaid takes one last look at the photo of his kids, and then kamikaze's his jet into the alien saucer in Independence Day. It gets me every time, but I've never heard of anyone else tearing up over it. Probably because they're all amped up watching Will Smith save the world.
Yes, and the increased number of writers it requires leads to a distinctly more homogenized feel.
Exactly. The contrast between the British and American versions of The Office is instructive in this regard.
I haven't been keeping up with a lot of blogs lately and didn't realize that Mark Bowden wrote something about the Wire.
Sorkin wrote nearly all of seasons 1-4 of WW and seems uh maybe more prone to lifestyle excesses
I still have trouble believing that the man who wrote Sports Night is the same man who wrote Studio 60. Either Sorkin was taking drugs when he wrote the latter or he wasn't taking enough of them.
I think 50 might have happened to me.
Six Feet Under was wonderful. Made me wanna write TV.
God, it seems ridiculous in retrospect, but when Six Feet Under ended, I'd seen only a handful of episodes, and then Bravo began to show it in its entirety, like 3 episodes back to back (commercial-free) every Tuesday night or whatever, and I had a date with the television set for months. Amazing.
One of these days I'll start watching The Wire.
Off-topic, I think we can all agree that no matter what kind of car you may drive, you need the Pimpstar wheel graphics system.
56: Getting `pimpstar' tattooed on your forehead has pretty much the same effect, is permanent, and probably cheaper.
Especially if you use a star graphic.
56: Now I know what ridiculous accessory I'm getting on my next Escalade.
I don't mean to rain on everyone's collaborative party with actual facts, but looking at my box set of season one here, nine out of thirteen episodes are written by either Simon or Burns or both, and the story credit goes to Simon and Burns together for every episode. Damn - I guess The Wire just can't measure up to the full collaborative writing powerhouse of, say, Three's Company.
Six Feet Under was so good that you can watch the six-minute series finale sequence without even knowing anything else about the show, and still be moved to tears.
I couldn't have been the only one who laughed through that episode.
56: goddamit. Another on the list of "products that seem like a good idea which turn out to be newly released like a week after I think of them". Pimpstar you baaaaaastaaaaaards!
It's a shame they used such crap, trashy images for that ad. And the sequence of El Blondini being lured in by the shiny lights is just embarrassing.
I am amazed that the dude managed to take, upload, edit, add text to, and display her picture, all without swerving off the road.
On the other hand, one has been able to pimp one's bicycle for quite some time now.
By the way, 59 is like the most awesome stras jones post ever. I mean that sincerely.
Is that a weird thing to say? I'm a little bit adulterated ATM. Sorry.
Does anyone else like House, M.D.? I caught a few episodes on Japanese cable TV and shelled out for the DVD's soon after.
I couldn't have been the only one who laughed through that episode.
I really liked the dream sequence—alot like the end of No Country for Old Men, come to think of it—but as for the final six minutes, well, the description on the linked YouTube video says it all:
Uinsg a technique pioneered on Miami Vice,
67: Does anyone else like House, M.D.?
I think these guys say it best.
I'm completely in love with House. (But not, I point out, with the character.) It's formulaic, but I don't care as long as I get a Wilson-House prank war now and then.
I think House shows the downside of having 24 episodes in a season. You almost can't help turning formulaic when you churn out so many shows back to back.
Except, of course, for the show "24".
I think it was meant to be formulaic, but that we wouldn't care because the character would be interesting. That seems to have held up.
72: formulaic is ok. they have fun characters. At least they don't fall into the cheesy false-gravitas most every other show about MD's does. They don't mind they're being goofy and completely implausible about the medical procedures, etc.
24 was okay. I really liked the first season, and followed the next couple until I realized I could nap through the first 50 minutes and not miss anything. All CTU needed to do to thwart terrorism was estimate that nothing would happen until X:50 and figure out where they needed to be by then, and then break someone's finger.
Has it? I've watched like twenty minutes of that show, and the character seemed as annoying as David Caruso in CSI: Miami.
The character's an ass, but well-acted. The show's biggest weakness to me is that the writers tend not to have any idea where they're going with any of the arcs.
All CTU needed to do to thwart terrorism was estimate that nothing would happen until X:50 and figure out where they needed to be by then, and then break someone's finger.
Yes, but which finger? That's why it's such a hard job.
Yes, but which finger?
It's funny because it's true.
Some shows in season 2 and 3 of House seemed a bit phoned-in, but the Survivor-style competition in Season 4 has reinvigorated the show.
24 just sounds so moronically contrived to me I haven't watched any. Am I wrong?
OT: Rhymeswithmaria and I have our byline in tomorrow morning's NYTimes. (If you're paying attention you can probably guess where...) Hope you enjoy!
Okay, I drank the Kool-Aid. I've added Six Feet Under to my NetFlix queue. To demonstrate my temperance, it's going after season three of The Wire but before season one of Home Movies (which I've already seen, but hey).
Thanks for the recommendation, folks.
nine out of thirteen episodes are written by either Simon or Burns or both, and the story credit goes to Simon and Burns together for every episode.
As I've heard them describe it, Simon and Burns basically have the whole five season story in mind, and then before each season the group decides what specifically to with the characters that year. Then, for each episode, one or two people do most of the first draft, but it all gets hashed out and worked over by the group.
Oh, and hey! A new episode of Friday Night Lights is up. Huzzah.
87: Congratulations...Mr. Kristol.
season one of Home Movies
Heh. I've always thought that Adult Swim didn't actually appeal to adults, with Home Movies as the possible exception. I'll take that as a confirmation.
93: I'm not an "adult" in any conventional sense of the word, destroyer. But I guess I can be your n=1 sample group.
You've got a beard, dude, and that's enough for me.
I don't know if I count as an adult, but I like Adult Swim. I haven't seen many of the newer shows, though.
92: The only thing sadder than being Bill Kristol is being Bill Kristol and pretending to date a sock puppet.
Flying my geek flag high here: Straczynski wrote all of one season of B5, I think it was season 3, and then all but 1 or 2 episodes of seasons 4 (or maybe the whole thing again) and 5.
99:
I loved B5 but preferred when Straczynski didn't write it all himself, since he couldn't write decent dialogue. My flatmate and I had a sort of dialogue bingo in seeing how many times per episode Sheridan would talk about (this place going/ sending enemies) "straight to hell".
A cruel man might suggest that society has long since delivered its verdict on Straczynski's writing on Babylon 5, as he has been reduced to transcribing Joe Quesada's Spider-man/Harry Osborne slash fantasies.
I'm actually really glad that Ultraviolet didn't keep going. Those six episodes are nearly perfect television.
50: I cried during Independence Day when the Prez makes his Inspiring Speech(tm). I was also insanely high.
Goddam, I read and threw out the paper before I saw 87, and didn't have time for what I assume to be the relevant page. Oh well, another buck and a quarter won't kill me.
When people talk about shows all written by one person, how come nobody mentions Soap, written by Susan Harris? That was a great show.
I refer to it in post titles, thenkyouverymuch.
Have you guys seen the Wire prequels?
One is Young Omar in 1985. One is young Prop Joe in 1966 or so. And one is how Bunk and McNulty met in 2000. They're priceless.
24 just sounds so moronically contrived to me I haven't watched any.
Am I the only one who scrolled up?
I read and threw out the paper before I saw 87
You discard newspapers the very same day they come out?
When I read them on the subway, yes.
Ah, okay. I was thinking in terms of home delivery.
14: AAAAAAAAGH! That completely creeps me out.
Damn you, I wouldn't ever have clicked on it if you hadn't commented on it.
87: Nice job, it's a fun theme.
107: The Wire prequels are cool, but if Prop Joe was about 10 in 1962, he would be about 55 when the show takes place. No way he looks that old.
"But where in Simon do you find a tendency toward 'sentimental tripe'? "
This exchange went round several more iterations, but not to any apparent gain of understanding by oudemia at any time, so I'd like to point out that, in fact, when Ogged wrote that "preachy and sentimental tripe" had been kept "out of the show," he meant, I'm quite sure, that there was no such tripe in the show.
This simple point seems to be the one oudemia was absolutely stuck on not understanding: that "out of the show" means it was not in the show. Thus, repeated demands to be made aware of where it was ever in the show, a question that makes no sense if what Ogged actually wrote in entirely clear English were understood.
7: "Almost everyone needs an editor.
8: "7 gets it right."
Incorrect. Correctly edited version: Almost Everyone needs an editor.
44: "JMS tended to write the first few and last few of each season of B5, but plenty of other writers filled in the middle episodes from his outlines."
That's incorrect. Out of five seasons, he wrote every episode of seasons 3 and 4. The "plenty of other writers" number approximately seven.
