That's good work well done. But haven't the Republicans already claimed Blackwater as their private army? Way back in the fall, didn't Daryl Issa imply that Blackwater troops might kill Henry Waxman if the latter went to Iraq? Or at least allow Waxman to be killed?
The Republican leaders now (even Huckabee) are all totally Establishment, and guys like that are seriously threatened by brownshirt types, and will freeze them out if they can. On the other hand, they lose leverage once the Republicans are out of power, and in desperation any of them might cut a deal. But anyway, I'd say authoritarian, not Fascist.
The so-called paleos (Pat Buchanan) could go that way, but so far they seem to be staying legal and Republican. Limbaugh has the meanness, but he's a multi-millionaire and works for Romney, it turns out (Atrios covered this -- Romney's group owns Clear Channel). The Glenn Beck, Michael Savage, and (probably) Lou Dobbs media audiences are huge and fascistic, but they don't seem to have been developed into organized groups so far. The neo-Confederates seem stuck in the South. (Someone has been floating Dobbs for President draft rumors, though).
The big loudmouth media guys are all millionaires, though, and I doubt they really have the hunger.
But these are wacko, crazy, paranoid ideas! How can I be saying these things? Jonah Goldberg realizes that the real fascist problem is primary school teachers from Swarthmore, whereas I'm fantasizing about angry, threatening guys with enormous followings. That's why Jonah is a major figure and I'm not.
i read and think why the argument 'but so are Republicans' sounds to me a bit strange
so if Goldberg says something claiming to be fascistic regarding liberals, 'but so are Republicans'?
is this supposed to work like alleviating the accusations
and your 'illiterate commissars in the soviet universities' falls too close to my garden to appreciate its wittiness
this being witty at someone else's expense seems to me so major feature of your western ways
no wonder i don't see any difference between your dem and republican fascistic ways
sorry, of course to start the weekend this like confrontingly
it could be all my poor reading comprehension and may be i have to go and read the article again to get the difference
that explanation that goldberg's book is an attempt to rehabilitate fascism and should be condemned seems to me the most convincing
Read, Read. I wasn't saying "So are the Republicans". I was saying that the Republicans are making false and silly accusations against Democrats in order to distract attention from what they themselves are doing. I think that the Republicans are more authoritarian than fascist, but the fascistic sentiment that there is in the U.S. is almost all on the Republican side. Do you disagree?
As for the commissars, what I've read about Russian literature, scholarship, and science during the Soviet period frequently talks about CP plants in the various relevant organizations who had no talent or qualifications, but who had authoriity because of their party position.
Conflict is a normal part of democratic politics, and it's in authoritarian regimes that the absence of conflict is the ideal. That's one reason why I don't like kumbayah centrism, since it involves suppressing disagreement and debate in favor of a forced consensus.
As for the commissars, what I've read about Russian literature, scholarship, and science during the Soviet period frequently talks about CP plants in the various relevant organizations who had no talent or qualifications, but who had authoriity because of their party position.
thank you for the clarification,
at the first reading i thought you are denigrating soviet universities, and was afraid that a common reader without knowing the details would also identify the scholars and the illiterate commissars as the same
though sure the russians do not need my defense :)
and sorry for unpleasant words about dems
when i'm in irritated mood i'd say something harsh
but to the trusted friends, coz usually i just ignore people who i dislike or do not trust
The Times's disparity of treatment between perfectly mainstream left-leaning books like Blumenthal's and hackwork like Goldberg's nonsense has been... illuminating.
Don't forget "disheartening."
I have this fantasy that read is going to go back to Mongolia one day and become a frequent guest on television news shows where she will comment as the expert on the U.S.A.
"We in Mongolia tend to see America as one monolithic entity, but there are deep cleavages within the American polity. For example, it is not unusual members of one party to compare the other party's supporters to Hitler."
Not sure why, but I had thought read was a he. She?
12: That came as a surprise to us all. A comment about getting a mammogram gave it away.
11
is not going to happen :)
i mean me on the tv
i once checked the abstract i was writing to submit to the conference for this male-female style of writing and the site said it's a female style
though it was just a very dry research absract
but i think if one will read carefully one can say who is who even around here
i have strong suspisions that the SeeKrit Commenter, OutOfTheBlue and felix and may be someone else were all Ogged, no?
i mean hiatuses are boring
Mongolian News Anchor: I have with me here today read, a noted expert on the U.S.A. Read, American universities have traditionally been the envy of the world. But this latest report shows that Asian universities are gaining ground. Is America's #1 position in tertiary education under threat?
read: Well, Gansükh, I'm pessimistic about the future of American universities. The new generation of scholars, instead of working diligently on ground-breaking research, seems to spend more time engaged in online discussions of trivialties with heavy overtones of sexual innuendo. It's shocking, and sad...
News Anchor: That is shocking indeed, read. Thank you for being with us. Coming up: Could your fermented yak's milk be contaminated with a chemical that makes you impotent? We'll be back after this message from our sponsors.
||
Huh. There's a movie of "The Yellow Wallpaper" starring Drusilla (aka Juliet Landau) coming out?
How does that get sustained for 90 minutes?
|>
+t
and why should you mention the fermented yak milk in your comment, there is no such a thing at least in Mongolia
fyi the fermented mare milk called airag is a traditional drink and good for boosting immunity, not suppressing fertility or causing impotence
I stand corrected. I meant mare's milk.
Once again, read, this passage should be understood as satire. If you watch American television news (especially the local news), you might have noticed that they tend to bait the viewers with this kind of scare tactic to keep them from changing the channel during the commercials: "Coming up next: a new study shows that a common household item could give your children a deadly cancer. Is there one in your home? Find out after the break!"
I was satirizing practice by substituting a Mongolian analogy (mistakenly, as you pointed out).
How does that get sustained for 90 minutes?
It's an experimental film, like Wavelength. Thirty-six minutes of it are just shots of the wallpaper with high-pitched buzzing noises. By the end of the movie, you too start seeing the woman in the wallpaper and are confined to a Victorian sanitarium.
How does that get sustained for 90 minutes?
It's like Adaptation; it's an extended exposition on the impossibility of adapting the work for the screen, as shown through the life of the tormented screenwriter.
18
and i meant it as a light joke, not getting defensive
i think by now i can see satire and mocking (if not just out of my limits of tolerance)
without pointed it out though
Exactly right, JE.
I have a hard time doing anything but simply ignoring the authoritarian fanboys. Or laughing at them. Both are mistakes, I'll admit, and so I'm glad that other folks are carrying the water on this.
I believe the technical problems at the Carp site have been corrected, although, as noted, laughing along is the wrong response.
i have strong suspisions that the SeeKrit Commenter, OutOfTheBlue and felix and may be someone else were all Ogged, no?
I have strong suspicions that Read is about as Mongolian as my ass.
i think by now i can see satire and mocking
And I have a feeling you're going to see lots of it.
Based on her posts here and on my site plus the CD she sent, I'm confident that Read is Mongolian, and it's consistent with that that she should read and translate Russian poetry.
26: Emerson, you're easily taken in. Read's made enough obvious slips already, but The Onion link was really pretty much the ultimate giveaway. To presume that someone would be familiar with Unfogged but utterly ignorant of the Onion is just absurd. To further presume that someone who had never seen The Onion before would be unable to tell that its "What Do You Think?" feature - which recycles the same three images every week - is a parody, one would have to presume such a fantastic degree of naivete and lack of capacity for basic reasoning on the part of Read as to render him/her the very caricature of the puzzled foreign naif. In other words: Read is Borating you, and doing it quite well. That he/she may be living in/writing from somewhere in Asia, or might know some Russian, proves nothing. I knew a guy who currently teaches English in Japan who had this exact same kind of sense of humor, and would pretend to be various Japanese stereotypes on Western chat rooms and blogs to get a laugh. Read is a great big fake.
i have strong suspisions that the SeeKrit Commenter, OutOfTheBlue and felix and may be someone else were all Ogged, no?
All these comments are posted by the same person as "read", who has been strangely interested in the comments by OutOfTheBlue, which no one else paid attention to, so s/he is bringing them up. Because s/he is trolling us.
One could be actually Mongolian and still be a troll, you know. Or, you know, pretend to be Mongolian and be translating Russian poetry.
Which is to say, stras is right here and in the other thread and I'm kind of perplexed by the failure to pick it up.
I'd buy OOTB as being read, but SeeKRit doesn't present any internal clues that I could see. What's tipping you off, Leblanc?
Felix has made no impression on me whatsoever.
What's tipping you off
Only comment 14 in this thread.
Reading 14, if R is SC, then both are O.
Felix first appeared during the great "Fuck You Clown" era. He stuck around for awhile and was hilarious, even Standpipean, but seemed to have more self-discipline than to become a real regular.
If you read the comments by OutOfTheBlue in thread, it's pretty clear what is going on.
"read" is laughing his/her asses off at us, and with good reason.
I'm also of the opinion that read falls somewhere in the gray area - she really is who she claims to be, but she's still deliberately trolling. Like claiming the US is more racist than anywhere else, or hysterical white women want exotic brown babies, etc.
30: And of course OOTB's comment that read is more than one person.
But Nápi is kidding about seeKRit, yes?
Look at comments 158 and 160 in the thread I linked in 33. Clear now?
Oh my god, Leblanc. That really smacked me upside the face. Yes, read is OOTB. Especially comment 158! Jeez.
Read is playing us like a finely tuned fiddle. Well done, you.
36, 37: Vive LeBlanc!
OOTB's grammar, idiom, and diction is much more sophisticated than "read's." So how much of a faker is s/he (are they)?
I can't find it just now, but "read" linked to a comment of "Seekrit Commenter"'s approvingly, when it was totally not relevant, so there's that.
how much of a faker
Very much. As in, totally trolling us all. Given the felix connection in 14 with JM's explanation I would suspect it's a near regular ol' American, f/k/a felix, come back to troll us all. Notice that "Seekrit Commenter"'s style of speaking is somewhere between read's "I don't speak English very well" semi-fluency and regular ol' English? Yeah, he/she is getting more and more amused and trying to tip us off.
Heebie! I have to tell you how great this line is: "He holds himself with the fluid gracefulness of a marionette sawhorse."
Really, I'm going to steal it.
Further evidence: stras and I are in complete agreement on this, and have been since the 'oh, in America, it is permissible to laugh at the President' thread. For reasons like 27. It's believable that someone would not understand American satire, but not that someone would hilariously misunderstand it every single time in the way most likely to give offense.
SeKRit I thought was a commenter who wished to be extra secret due to having some friends who read the blog, whose initials are normally KR.
41: In re SeeKRit: there are two SCs, perhaps? One is a perfectly obvious temporary cover, as Cala notes. But I must have missed the other one entirely.
No, no, Cala is right in 41. I am now officially confused about SeeKRit Commenter, and also, it was SC who linked to SC. So. Nevermind.
I still maintain that OOTB is read and that read is trolling us. Fin.
OK now, Felix is Seekrit is OOTB is Read is KR?
Ok, I was thinking of the SC who seemed to be KR, which made 14 here and subsequent discussion difficult to follow.
Y'all will recall that in the pictures from the wing ding thread, read comments on the appearance of attendees. (I think I'm right about this). That pretty severely limits possibilities, doesn't it?
This is astonishing. I'd assumed from the outset that read was, at least originally, Emerson fighting the old ennui.
If someone with access to the comment database would come along and sort all this out by comparing IP addresses, that would be very nice. KTHXBAI>
This is awesome. It's like the last scene in Usual Suspects.
I still maintain that OOTB is read and that read is trolling us. Fin.
Tu as raison (ou doit-on vouvoyer M. Leblanc?).
"read" is laughing his/her asses off at us, and with good reason.
Ah yes, the unbearable thought of possibly being the butt of the joke. Oh Noes! We don't laugh at Internet, Internet laughs at us!
Presumably the bloggers here have some clues from IP addresses (pwned on preview by leblanc). At one point read did mention a blog but we never got a link to it as I recall, that would provide more information, if not surety of resolution.
After 47, I am now totally convinced that Emerson is read.
46: I remember read asking to be added to the flickr pool at the time.
Ah yes, the unbearable thought of possibly being the butt of the joke.
Eh, this isn't my attitude at all. I'm kind of thrilled by complex subplots.
After 47, I am now totally convinced that Emerson is read.
Performance art trolls are always intriguing.
Emerson does seem an unlikely candidate for "most fooled by the troll." He's not ordinarily very...credulous.
And then of course, Emerson took me aside in DC and told me I'd been replaced by read. I love this. I kind of already loved it, but now it's extra-fantastic.
The Mongolian angle was Emerson's Achilles heel.
Oooh! This is fun!
In the other thread Emerson claims read lives in the States now. Where did read claim to live? I thought it was Japan, now, actually.
And to think it unravelled in a thread ostensibly about Emerson in the first place. Tsk, tsk.
Actually, read claimed to live in the US. Working at a lab of some sort. Which makes stras and Cala even more right in 27 and 41.
Ah yes, the unbearable thought of possibly being the butt of the joke. Oh Noes! We don't laugh at Internet, Internet laughs at us!
I'm just tired of having threads get derailed by twenty to thirty comments of patient explanations of basic American culture to the Mysterious Otherworldly Foreigner who is obviously some random-ass grand student with too much time on his hands. This place used to be proudly troll-proof, people. Now its soft, flabby underbelly is exposed.
I would be very surprised if read is Emerson.
If people are serious: no, Read isn't me, and if she's fake, I've been fooled. I've been hoaxed once already by a very smart guy who could forge Early Modern French. That kind of hoax isn't really my style; I don't even have a handle but go by my own name now.
I've always considered the possibility that Read might be fucking with our heads. Whether it's trolling is for people to decide for themselves. To me it isn't.
I remain convinced is that her identity is what she says, with the caveat that I couldn't spot a very elaborately and competently done fake. Someone would have had to have put a ton of effort into it, though.
I don't see the multiple identity thing, except that it did make me remember kid bitzer, a multiple identity who disappeared.
Read's hoax has gone so far as to have Mongol name and a return address in the US. Her story is consistent, AFAIK. I don't think that she ever has claimed to live in Japan, and she posts on US time.
For the record, I am 99% sure kid bitzer was not a multiple identity. We once had an off-blog sequence where he located me in real life. While he was zero forthcoming about personal details, it doesn't make any sense to contact me as kid bitzer if it's an alter ego.
would you people discuss goldberg instead of me, please?
checking IP addresses - how inquisitive, what are you, CIA?
Read told me once that she has shaggy gray hair and a beard, and generally doesn't bother to wear her dentures. On the surface, it sure does sound like you, Emerson.
I've known a number of Asian medical researchers working in the U.S., and their smarts about American life are pretty limited. They're the lecturers you complain about who can't speak English, and their involvement in pop culture is often zero. Just imagine the geekiest American PhD-MD you know of (hint: very geeky), and then imagine them only arriving in the U.S. a few years ago, not really speaking English.
66: Doesn't mean she can't be having fun playing up the ignorant foreigner for laughs. Because it's either that or this person successful enough to live and work in the U.S. is an unbelievable combination of savvy + naive, while being completely unaware of that to rude and humorous effect.
with good karma i am objectively pro-buddhist
please forgive
Heebie, my hair is not gray. And you were right there face to face! I do have a grey patch in my beard.
There remains M. Leblanc's discovery: read and outoftheblue do seem to be the same person, and ootb's English is just fine.
Read, going off-topic is the norm around here. I'm afraid you're it.
68 is totally breaking character, Read.
I have never been able to read read as a female.
Heebie, my hair is not gray. And you were right there face to face! I do have a grey patch in my beard.
I assumed she was prematurely aging you as a red herring. I know that you've still got your quirky youthfulness. You mongol, you.
Does anyone really care if someone is who they say they are?
Isnt the question whether they entertain or add something? The only time I would care is if I wanted to actually meet them.
Heebie claims to be some professor, but have you seen her???!?!? There is no way she is a professor.
John, even you have to be ready to reassess after 68.
And Napi is clearly a 14 year old girl. Whenever I read something by Napi, I hear a young female voice.
I believe Will and Witt are the same person, and I've even met them both. But did I ever see them in the same room at the same time? And did I ever put one of them in a headlock and claw at their chin lines, to pull off a mask? Nice try, "Wilt".
Will, I certainly don't care. But Stras is right that it's pretty silly to spend time explaining jokes to a performance artist. Or assuaging purportedly hurt feelings.
I will happily accept any comments by "Witt" as things said by me. Please, please give me credit for comments listed under Witt.
how inquisitive, what are you, CIA?
Actually, this whole site is a data-mining front for CSIS. Now you know.
But Stras is right that it's pretty silly to spend time explaining jokes to a performance artist. Or assuaging purportedly hurt feelings.
Agreed. So don't do it.
If someone else wants to spend their time being silly, I certainly do not care.
79: Not really, except to the extent that it would have been nice to talk about Emerson's analysis of Goldberg without having to explain patiently that in America, our decadent Western ways allow us to discuss politics.
74: There remains M. Leblanc's discovery: read and outoftheblue do seem to be the same person, and ootb's English is just fine.
yes, how interesting
a discovery of ootb writing like me
however, your conclusion
i think that would be like a fallacy
If someone else wants to spend their time being silly, I certainly do not care.
Being silly is my whole shtick, Will. I thought you did care.
88: Oh, it's more than that, silly.
But even in that case, ootb sort of overexplained his "mistake," no? He didn't claim to be imitating read or making some kind of joke, but said, rather, "Oh wow. That was me. I was drunk." Or somesuch.
Being silly is my whole shtick, Will. I thought you did care.
Don't kid yourself. There is also the butt. And the important eggs.
I should have used "object." I don't object if someone answers off topic or on topic or if they answer seriously or with a silly answer.
"Oh wow. That was me. I was drunk."
Sounds like Emerson!
87: I call foul on that. It was the accusations against read that derailed this thread, just as it was the whining of crack-baby Harry Potter fans that derailed the discussion of my book when I published it.
But as I explained just now, going off topic is normal here, and I am the worst of sinners and proud of it.
68 strikes me as a reasonable expression of annoyance, though of course now that we're suspicious, I suppose that it was exactly what a hoaxer would have said.
It was the accusations against read that derailed this thread
Ergo, the only possible conclusion is that read IS GOLDBERG. What diabolical genius!
now that we're suspicious, I suppose that it was exactly what a hoaxer would have said.
How much hoaxing could a hoaxer stoke,
if a hoaxer did stoke hoaxes?
This thread baffles me. It seems pretty clear that we would want to avoid getting trolled. Because it, you know, derails conversations. And is annoying.
Emerson, your book needed more wizards and people bitching at each other in tents for 200 pages if you wanted to capture the hearts and minds of this crowd.
Now I kind of don't want to have IP addresses checked--I'd like read to hover perpetually in a state of Schroedingerian indeterminacy, both Mongolian and not-Mongolian at the same time. Don't open the box!
Notice that "Seekrit Commenter"'s style of speaking is somewhere between read's "I don't speak English very well" semi-fluency and regular ol' English? Yeah, he/she is getting more and more amused and trying to tip us off.
Now you've gone and hurt my feelings, m.leblanc. FTR, I am not read. And my bleg was totally for reelz, as those of you who have since communicated with me about it by e-mail can attest.
99: Yeah, I know, I was wrong about that. 14 confused me.
I agree with Frowner. I have always been fairly disturbed when LB mentions checking out IP addresses. I realize that it can be done, but I do not like it.
If you want to check out IP addresses, then let people check your IP address.
I'm with 98. Is the act of our observation impacting read's identity?
Since when does this blog assuage hurt feelings, from commenters Mongolian or non-? When I think of the time I spent getting over my hurt feelings around here, so wasted! This place is getting soft.
God, people, the answer's pretty obvious. Read is a troll. Don't feed the trolls.
I personally am finding this thread so much fun, that I haven't left to run errands that I planned on running 45 minutes ago.
Having a long, obnoxious conversation about the trolls is the best antidote to having fed them in the first place.
104:
Has anyone here not said something for effect?
Isnt that what every comment is at the core?
You people are all so silly.
Perhaps OutOfTheBlue is two or more people.
158 and 160 in leblanc's thread were posted from different IPs.
Seriously, will, there's a certain level of honesty that makes the thing work. No one thinks that the Pikuni trickster-god is commenting on the internet: that level of deception is expected and accepted. But I would certainly think substantially less of you if it turned out that you don't have a daughter.
At this point I think that either Stras or Read should be asked to leave. Not big enough for both of them.
I was happy to have a Mongol Russian poetry translator on board, even though her posts were weird.
In the same way, AWB never has bothered me even though her lifestyle strikes me as odd. I thought that a lot of the negative reactions on the anonymous thread were over the top. I confess to being pretty harsh with Republicans and DLC Democrats, but that strikes me as justifiable. Different strokes I guess.
108: No way. No way! Go back and double-check.
I'm being trolled by this entire blog, aren't I?
As anyone who's met me can attest, I am in reality the heir to a Norwegian shipping fortune, posting from Sarpsborg. I am constantly offended by your cavalier remarks about my nation, but I hide it well. Scandinavians are stoic.
While I can't rule out the possibililty that read could be an extraordinarily adept troll/performance artist, I am not convinced. My family has hosted a couple of exchange students from that part of the world, and their level of sheer *foreignness* should not be underestimated.
Just as an example, I give you this from Wikipedia
There is also a tradition of giving names with unpleasant qualities to children born to a couple whose previous children have died, in the belief that the unpleasant name will mislead evil spirits seeking to steal the child. Muunokhoi, "Vicious Dog", may seem a strange name, but Mongolians have traditionally been given such taboo names to avoid misfortune and confuse evil spirits. Other examples include Nekhii, "Sheepskin"; Nergüi, "No Name"; Medekhgüi, "I Don't Know"; Khünbish, "Not A Human Being"; Khenbish, "Nobody"; Ogtbish, "Not At All"; Enebish, "Not This One"; Terbish, "Not That One." Couples, whose previous boys have died, would give female names to their son to mislead the evil spirits. In some cases, they were even advised to raise the boy as a girl, dressing him as a girl.
Culturally, Central Asians might as well be on another planet from us. And it's only been fairly recently that they have had any exposure to Western media.
i'm read. sorry to fuck with you, leblanc.
It's so tedious having every single joke turn into an elementary tutorial on the American sense of humor, particularly since read's misinterpretations are generally both absurd and offensive.
That doesn't necessarily make read a troll--she could just be a rude yet easily offended Mongolian graduate student. But she's having the same effect as if she were intentionally trolling.
The beauty of unfogged was always that no one ever explained--questions about jokes were always referred to standpipe's blog. The old days were the good days.
At this point I think that either Stras or Read should be asked to leave. Not big enough for both of them.
Looking at this thread, I really don't think I'm the only one irritated by Read - or, more precisely, the reaction to Read's trolling, which tends to be to earnestly and patiently respond to it at great length.
READ AND WOLFSON ARE ONE AND THE SAME!!!!
ZOMG!!!1!!!
96: one of the problems is that "troll" has been loaded with so many use cases that it really has lost meaning. I vote for its use only in its original alt.folklore urban sense. In case it is not obvious I am on Emerson's side on this one. The one thing I would ask read to do is to post a link to her blog that she mentioned and complained about it getting so few visits.
No one has to respond to read. It seems that it is the mix of her earnestness (she's actually Ursula LeGuin!), wackiness and seemingly genuine references to Mongolian culture make people feel the need to respond. I am a relative newcomer here myself, but I think she adds something to the mix.
stras, your simplistic view of Internet identity matches the subtlety of your political analysis.
This is like the Salem Witch Trials. Everyone, get ready to denounce!
Actually, I have to say that I am laughing more at this episode that I have laughed at Unfogged in a long time.
Seriously, will, there's a certain level of honesty that makes the thing work. No one thinks that the Pikuni trickster-god is commenting on the internet: that level of deception is expected and accepted. But I would certainly think substantially less of you if it turned out that you don't have a daughter.
Only if you expect honesty and are relying on this being reality.
You enjoy fiction, yet you know it is made up.
(Speaking of my daughter, last night, I found a bunch of markers that I had stuffed down behind the cushion of a chair! Bonus!)
Tell me, stras, why do you think read's a troll? In particular, what deceptions do you think have been practiced on us?
one of the problems is that "troll" has been loaded with so many use cases that it really has lost meaning. I vote for its use only in its original alt.folklore urban sense.
Read lives under a bridge near the three billy goats gruff?
It's so odd, on a blog where trolls are usually ruthlessly driven out, to see everyone's tender sensibilities at play. Really, isn't it that we (or maybe just me) don't want to take the chance that read is real and getting her feelings hurt, even if we're a bit skeptical?
I do wonder about Emerson's CD, since it seems to be material--albeit circumstantial--evidence.
Read lives under a bridge near the three billy goats gruff?
No, hbgb --- read is kibo.
stras, your simplistic view of Internet identity matches the subtlety of your political analysis
This statement is hilarious for so many reasons I can't possibly begin to explain. I look forward to seeing you continue to patiently explain the fundamentals of sarcasm and free speech to Read The Mysterious Foreigner over the coming months.
stras, your simplistic view of Internet identity matches the subtlety of your political analysis.
Y'all, this is really getting into "the terrorists have won" territory.
"...torn apart by the so-called "Read" controversy, in early 2008 the Unfogged community..."
There really should be a test:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrzMhU_4m-g&feature=related
105: I personally am finding this thread so much fun, that I haven't left to run errands that I planned on running 45 minutes ago.
Same here. I am putting off washing four days accumulated dishes before my wife gets home from out-of-town. This is not optional.
read is a home wrecker!
Yes, stras, but I'm not the only one irritated by you, either. You've annoyed the shit out of people, and I've even defended you.
It seems that the evidence people have brought forward on the "read isn't really what she says she is" side consists entirely of "no one could be like that, not really". This is already shit evidence, note. One seems to have pretty good reason to believe that she is what she says she is, on the other hand (you know, internal evidence from what she says), and if one is Emerson or, say, me, one has even better evidence. I wouldn't expect others to be swayed by that, of course, but it is striking how much of the reaction to read seems to come down to "but she's so WEIRD!".
It is also unclear to me what people mean by calling read a troll, still.
123 gets it exactly right.
Will, is this marker thing recent, or ongoing?
Really, isn't it that we (or maybe just me) don't want to take the chance that read is real and getting her feelings hurt, even if we're a bit skeptical?
Also, read can be extremely sweet. I remember I was feeling down about something and read linked me to a very lovely version of "Somewhere over the rainbow."
As for the onion, no one thought The Beijing Evening News was trolling its readers.
I remember when read sent me a puppy in the mail. It was dead, but it's the thought that counts.
Soup:
It has been around for a while. Since she doesnt really care about them once they have been captured and place in her backpack, I often steal them back out to reduce the amount of black Marks-a-lot markers I have to buy.
Read can be extremely interesting, too, to me anyway. I think she brings something. Most trolls don't have that kind of mix -- they're either all troll or else trying to establish cred in a neutral way. A lot of her stuff isn't trollery by any standard, either, it just irritates some people.
138: href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrfgCEsg_go"> There's a song about that, too.
Remember that read started by showing up in threads and spammily linking to video after video of totally unrelated, usually Russian content. This was weeks-long, this read phase.
w-lfs-n knows that one of the two ootb posts in that thread is from O. And the other is from him. I haven't decided which is "read."
Re: 137. Does it count as pwnage if it's posted in a different comment thread?
A lot of her stuff isn't trollery by any standard, either, it just irritates some people.
Like you in comment 6?
No, my answer irritated people because they thought I was feeding the troll. When I'm irritated, don't I normally show it pretty explicitly?
147: To be honest, I didn't know how to interpret the dead puppy you sent me in the mail.
That puppy was for Jammies. Did you keep it for yourself.
Jammies tried to do a bad, bad thing to the puppy. I had to take it away and put it on a high shelf.
Jammies tried to do a bad, bad thing to the puppy. I had to take it away and put it on a high shelf.
I move that heebie be declared the "It" girl again.
hmmm, I think we can safely say that nobody on this thread is likely to be in the market for consulting premises at 221b Baker Street any time soon.
Jammies is taller than you, Heeb.
I'm going to drop out because I have stuff to do too.
I'm not offended by read's game, if game it is. I haven't played as often as some, and won't be playing in the future.
I don't see any reason to believe that the read of Russian spam and the Mongolian researcher are the same person.
127, 129: Yes, my apologies. That was unduly harsh, just getting tired of the use of the word "troll" to be absolutely dismissive. (contrast with Emerson's 140).
However stras, if by This statement is hilarious for so many reasons I can't possibly begin to explain. you mean that you are read, I am indeed way impressed.
No one has to respond to read
now, that's sad and sad that ootb was not ogged
i was to leave like for good
i enjoy the conversations if it's not derogatory to anybody
i like unfogged because i learn new words everyday, there is always something new for me
it's difficult to communicate in one's not native language when you know only one word for a thing and all other synonyms with all those nuances are not available easily
please do not overreact to rude words i write sometimes, if i knew its benign synonym i definitely would use that
People should decide if they find Read too annoying to bear. The fake identity thing is irrelevant. I like having her around, but I seem to be in a small minority.
"Troll" to me means something more than "annoying" or "not right for this place", implying deliberate malice which I still don't think is there. But many people seem very, very annoyed.
Jammies is taller than you, Heeb.
Everyday I come home and find that thing strewn about the house, more and more hair missing from the nape of its neck.
Read is not terribly annoying, just the responses to her. I think stras is totally right about that.
The problem is, it's way too funny to imagine someone learning English and about American culture from Unfogged. It's like my German ex who grew up watching Some Like It Hot too many times. It's so absurd and delightful that it's easy to imagine some troll posing as read in order to make the joke.
However, read is too frequently completely off-topic and merely earnest and inoffensive to be a troll in that sense. You'd have to be completely fucking insane to keep that ruse up for more than a few days. Which is why I think read is Standpipe.
161: Well that solves it. Let read stay, even though she's a troll, but simply ban everyone who has ever responded to her. Brilliant. Me first, I suppose.
I don't see any reason to believe that the read of Russian spam and the Mongolian researcher are the same person.
I do, and my powers of discernment exceed yours in this instance. Similarly, I thought it was odd that OOTB, who seems to be more of a shit-stirrer than anything else, made his first contributions stating how obvious it was that read was multiple persons, since it's been obvious to me, for similar reasons, that that's not so.
This little drama is making me want to read The Confidence Man and watch Being There again.
Anyway, I think w-lfs-n gets it right.
I used to find read seriously annoying, back when I thought she was an undergrad experimenting with drugs. Now that I know she is a foreigner (if, indeed, that is what she is), it has triggered my avuncular reflex and I feel obliged to treat her with more kindness than I might otherwise. I think this is partly because of my experience living with oddball foreign exchange students in my house, and partly because I was once a stranger in a strange land myself and know the distress of loneliness and isolation.
At this point, I'd like to make a suggestion. Instead of patiently explaining everything to read in gentle, diplomatic terms, let's come up with a short-hand expression that will mean "Read, darling, we realize you don't quite get what's going on here, but we don't feel like derailing the discussion to explain it to you, so please be a good girl and shut the fuck up."
My suggestion for this phrase is "Put a sock in it, read," to be abbreviated "PASIIR". It should be used judiciously, not in response to any and all of read's comments, but when you might otherwise be tempted to write a tedious reply. And read, we declare in advance that we mean you no ill will when we write PASIIR.
To presume that someone would be familiar with Unfogged but utterly ignorant of the Onion is just absurd.
Haven't read the rest of the thread yet but...
I heard of the Onion long after I discovered Unfogged. I don't seek out professional satire, I'm just not that into it, and there's a lot out there.
To further presume that someone who had never seen The Onion before would be unable to tell that its "What Do You Think?" feature - which recycles the same three images every week - is a parody, one would have to presume such a fantastic degree of naivete and lack of capacity for basic reasoning on the part of Read as to render him/her the very caricature of the puzzled foreign naif.
The first time I saw The Onion, this is exactly what happened (for about 3 minutes). Yes, I am credulous, and I felt pretty silly.
163: simply ban everyone who has ever responded to her
I think we should start by sending them dead puppies with an accompanying note that says "I guess there isn't any point in pointing out the damage you did, since you already know that, and I am sure have learned from it."
Or you could just ignore him, which works if he's a troll or if he's who he says he is.
The reason I responded to the Onion thing is that read seemed to be arguing that, joke or not, racism and suffering and whatnot aren't funny, and laughing about them is unproductive. Which is true. Americans laugh at things that aren't inherently funny all the time. It's an interesting problem, and one that's very much a part of my work as a grad student. Thinking the Onion is a serious news source is a typical hilarious-foreigner mistake. Understanding that it's not real and still finding it offensive is pretty understandable.
Frankly, I think leses of everyone who thinks read must be faking it (except stras, of whom I already thought very little).
Since the onion's come up again, I refer everyone again to 137. Also, the info in 108 is right, and, basically, read is who she says she is.
and i leave me my right to express my may be imaginary distress whenever i will feel like that
I think leses of everyone who thinks read must be faking it
Most of us just don't care.
Young Master w-lfs-n gets it exactly right in 134.
I agree that we needn't keep explaining jokes, though.
(except stras, of whom I already thought very little)
Watch me cry.
And of those people I don't think leses.
In fact, of you in particular, I think extremely highly, Dr Slack.
It's incredible how powerful the urge in me is to seek w-lfs-n's approval. Do you like me now, Ben? What about now?
Now?
In fact, of you in particular, I think extremely highly, Dr Slack.
AFAIK, he's still straight, w-lfs-n.
Take us down little read, take us down
I know some think you're trolling the unfoggedetariat
And you can send us dead puppies every morning
Send us a CD dead puppies by the U.S. Mail
Say it with dead puppies at our weddings
And we won't forget to
No, I won't forget to put roses on your grave dead
181: ack, preview/posting malfunction, replace the last two lines with something like "And we won't forget to explain to you all our jokes".
85: When I was a kid, I so wanted to work for CSIS. (!) (Obstacle besides age: gullibility)
182: Don't let stereotypes, the 'fro, or Internet rumors trick you: w-lfs-n's an average sized man, at best. Hold out for a better offer.
184: Funny story: I know a guy who got recruited for CSIS and made it to the final interview stage before intentionally tanking. Good thing, because imagining him as a spy is truly scary.
Weird how a thread in which M. LeBlanc appeared to discover an obvious truth about one odd commenter turned into an opportunity for one of the posters to bitch about another.
Anyway, I remain unconvinced of the truth of either position. The only possibly solution: cage match.
Thinking the Onion is a serious news source is a typical hilarious-foreigner mistake. Understanding that it's not real and still finding it offensive is pretty understandable.
I have a similar feeling about the German satire magazine Titanic. There's funny stuff in it, but it takes épater la bourgeoisie to the extreme and sometimes violates taboos that I would prefer remain unviolated. (Here are some examples of covers that give you and idea of the general tenor.)
"Funny", like so much else, owes a lot to cultural conditioning.
"appeared" to discover is right.
AFAIK, he's still straight, w-lfs-n.
You know for a while I thought DS was gay.
"Say it with dead puppies" is a great line.
185: I'm waiting for someone with comparable grammatical cojones. No luck so far.
190: Apparently you weren't alone. If I weren't so politically correct I'd be getting a complex.
There's nothing wrong with it, DS. For all you know your mother already has figured it out.
I sure have no idea what the actual explanation is for the readlike comment attributed to OutOfTheBlue, but from a different IP address. That is weird, to be sure.
192. In happens to the best of us. In Real Life, I'm so manly I *only* associate with men, and there are no women in my life whatsover.*
*this obviously is a lie for humourous purposes. In fact, I only associate with women. They're much better at discussing feelings.
It's incredible how powerful the urge in me is to seek w-lfs-n's approval. Do you like me now, Ben? What about now?
I still dislike you for not coming through on your promise of typewriter porn.
IRL, I associate with a completely even mixture of men, women, homophobes, gays, lesbians and bisexuals. Keeps everyone guessing. Including me.
I am so confused by this entire thread. w-lfs-n, would you like to explain what's going on?
194: Yeah. I would like an explanation for that. If someone popped up having accidentally commented as "A White Bear" and then said it happened because they were drunk, I would be seriously disturbed.
Read, do you have any clue why OutOfTheBlue wrote a comment in your voice with his name appended, or why you accidentally commented as OutOfTheBlue and then he apologized? Because that makes no sense whatsoever, different IP addresses or not.
196: I explained this to you off-blog, Mr. w-lfs-n. I can't write you porn because it would be so good it would freak you out and you wouldn't talk to me anymore. I have thought of several really good typing porn scenarios though. I will probably write them and never show them to you.
I sure have no idea what the actual explanation is for the readlike comment attributed to OutOfTheBlue, but from a different IP address. That is weird, to be sure.
Is it not possibly to imitate (broadly) another poster's distinctive style for a comment or two?
OOTB didn't apologize. He said "Not that it matters but 158 wasn't me. Sober now. Yeech.".
homophobes, gays, lesbians and bisexuals
All of the four major orientations, then.
Is it not possibly to imitate (broadly) another poster's distinctive style for a comment or two?
NO
thank god "furry" stll doesn't count as a major orientation
No transsexuals or intersexuals? Fie on you!
OOTB didn't apologize. He said "Not that it matters but 158 wasn't me. Sober now. Yeech.".
Right, but... what the heck? Who was it? Was it some third party making a joke or insinuation that OOTB was read? Sorry if harping on this is a bad idea, my curiosity and confusion are just piqued.
No transsexuals or intersexuals?
What am I, a hippie?
204: I think Ben meant to write
NO IT IS NOT POSSIBLE.
I still dislike you for not coming through on your promise of typewriter porn.
I knew someone whose father was apparently working for years on assembling the complete corpus of librarian porn. Perhaps you should just expand your horizons slightly.
WHY THE FUCK ARE THESE PEOPLE DRESSED UP LIKE CARE BEARS
Surely someone commenting as someone else would be found out really damn quickly, for example, by the person being imitated, which is what that looked like. But if it was me realizing someone was commenting in my name, I would be a lot more baffled/weirded out than OOTB was. Not to continually over-psychologize about this, but the whole thing is so so weird.
164 -- Of course, I don't mean to say that these things are unascertainable, and to imply that I think my knowledge might be superior to yours. I'll note, though, that including this comment, I'll have used 3 different IP addresses to comment on this thread, and, if your data collection system is like Sitemeter, it shows 3 different locations more than 100 miles apart.
I can imitate Ogged. I just concentrate really hard on hating you all and imagining that part of my kidney is missing, I'm too serious to have sex, and I really like flopping around in water.
No, the typewriter porn prompt is perfect, and extremely specific. So far, I have like 10 scenarios all lined up for when I do a book called Typewriter Porn for w-lfs-n to Jerk It To. It's a niche publication.
Great post, John. I really liked the way your site crashed my computer. That was especially cogent.
I'd buy it, although my review would probably contain the phrase "too many w-lfs-ns".
Is it not possibly to imitate (broadly) another poster's distinctive style for a comment or two?
Jeez, yes, of course. See comment 88 this thread.
Much of the confusion would clear up if everyone changed "xyz said" to something like "a comment with 'xyz' in the Name box said".
213: My God, and exactly what game do you think the Internet persona OOTB was playing in that thread? Did you read OOTB's "normal" posts?
All of the four major orientations, then.
LGBT: lesbians, gays, bears and twinks
This thread is beginning to give me flashbacks to , ahref="http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/2.05/alt.tasteless.html?topic=&topic_set=">rec.pets vs. alt.tasteless.
223: Fuck. rec.pets versus alt.tasteless.
Yes, the comments appearing over "OutOfTheBlue" add up to a giant WhatTheFuck.
27: Comic book creator and insane misogynist Dave Sim took an Onion article about a gay pride parade at face value some years ago. But then, he is insane, so.
I am perfectly willing to believe that read is who she says she is--more to the point, I don't care. I also don't care if she's trolling deliberately, or simply being obtuse, but the problem is both the patient explanations of basic stuff, which is a little tiresome, and--at least to me--this sort of thing:
i enjoy the conversations if it's not derogatory to anybody
from read herself. I have a certain cognitive dissonance about someone who is new to a place, yet feels entitled to police its norms; who is very concerned with politeness, yet comfortable telling strangers that they're behaving badly; who gets her feelings hurt whenever anyone discusses her, but continually draws attention to herself. It's annoying, and I don't care if it's because read is a foreigner.
And yes, Emerson's piece about Goldberg is first-rate.
The "OutOfTheBlue" mystery is kind of driving me nuts. (Arr!)
227: Except everyone to the left of Goldberg has made an enormous terrible mistake over the last year or so by giving him so much as a single pixel or drop of ink referencing his book. It's Controversial now, dontcha know.
227: Well, yes. This is the game that the insane right has been playing for a long time, and they're very good at it.
I am very confused. Ben, can you tell us the additional evidence you alluded to in 134. ("If one is Emerson or, say, me, one has even better evidence.") Is this just the CD, the IP addresses?
231: I think w-lfs-n is talking about the translations of something or other.
Could the read-like post that was signed "out of the blue" have simply been some kind of server glich, where read posted something and the wrong name got added to it?
too many w-lfs-ns is so true. Oxford and Cambridge each have one.
I've seen the light on what it takes to become rich and influential, and I'm hard at work on my forthcoming book: Republican Communists: The Mysterious Past of the Right from Marx to Ann Althouse
231: You didn't know that w-lfs-n is Mongolian?
ZOMG Michael, you must write that book! you must!
If you don't have time, maybe you could set up a wiki and the internet could collaborate.
Or! Maybe OOTB was trying to troll read! The plot thickens.
too many w-lfs-ns
so now my guess is ootb was ben w-lfs-n
feels entitled to police its norms
not me, i just say whatever comes to my mind however it is obtuse in response to whatever one said that drew my attention
me too don't care what others think of me personally, so there
how it is my comment now is rude and bitchphd's not, because i'm a newcomer, outsider?
i think i figured out how unfogged as a community works, but won't tell coz that will begin another trolling accusations
Also, on board with everyone else demanding that Michael write that book IMMEDIATELY.
I have received a CD from an address in the U.S. (where Read says she lives) from someone with a Mongol name that the internet tells me is the name of an M.D. who has done research in Japan.
Stras has no reason whatsoever to doubt Read's identity, but because he hates her her comments he hates everything about her. He even doubts that Read is a girl.
Frankly I felt creepy Googling the name of someone who I think of as an interesting friend.
Ben has looked at Read's IP address.
This part of the discussion is idiotic. If there's a problem with Read's comments, it does not hinge on her identity. Is suppose that it's regarded as relevant because people think that she's pretending to be a foreigner in order to make her naivety plausible, or in order to suck me into her game.
This has been a very interesting experience in the "nasty" sense of the word.
i think i figured out how unfogged as a community works
Eeexcellent. Now, we take your soul...
This, btw, is clearly the problem with those of us in the reality-based community. We'll say stuff about republican communists, but it would never occur to any of us to write a book like that because WE CAN'T BELIEVE ANYONE WOULD BE STUPID ENOUGH TO PUBLISH/BUY IT.
If I could trace neighborhood associations to a Republican official, I think I could twist that into a good start.
i just say whatever comes to my mind
Right, but you tell the rest of us we shouldn't.
me too don't care what others think of me personally, so there
Then why do you object every time someone says something about you, or makes a joke about Mongolia, or whatever?
how it is my comment now is rude and bitchphd's not,
Okay, look. No one has *said* your comment is rude; you're preemptively assuming that, and being defensive about it. Which is an annoying habit.
And anyway, everyone here thinks I'm terribly rude, as you surely know by now.
244. well, you know how this works on the Right, right? It doesn't matter if a substantial number of people would buy it because a few people will buy a million copies so it will be a bestseller anyway.
233 doesn't explain why ootb was so weirdly unfreaked out, and the little anecdote about friends (and direct address of ootb) in the readlike post just feels too real and not like an attempt to troll her.
I invented a whole scenario in which read and ootb live in the same place and ran into problems where read's computer was remembering her as him, but it may be complete lunacy.
Lets drop the discussion of read, which is only hurting feelings, and talk about Michael's book, which is going to be huge.
Here's a place to start: Marx favored government control of the economy, and in the USSR this sort of government control was used to benefit the narrow elite. Republicans have always used big government to benefit their cronies. (Deficits have gone up under every republican since Regan, etc). Therefore Republicans are communists. QED
This has been a very interesting experience in the "nasty" sense of the word.
Double standard much, John?
Marx was relentelessly pro-industrialism and anti environmental. Republicans are relentlessly pro-industrialism and anti-environmental. So Republicans are communists. QED.
Read, my feeling is that you can be as confrontational as you want here, but can't be offended when others are also confrontational. We push jokes a long, long way here and are frequently rude to one another, but usually forget it afterwards. The general idea is that we're all friends and friends can afford to fight.
248: The ootb-signed, but not apparently ootb written, comment does sound exactly like read, and not at all in a "look at me! i'm imitating read!" kind of way. That anecdote sounds perfectly read-like and charming.
read, did you write it? Or was it a computer glitch, as helpy-chalk surmised?
Marxism has strong anti-semitic tendencies, yet as been attractive to a lot of Jews. The Republican party has strong anti-semitic tendencies, and yet is attractive to a lot of Jews. So Republicans are communists. QED.
The great thing is that rob has the logic of Goldberg's book down perfectly.
John doesn't like people beating up on his new Mongolian internet girlfriend!
If there's a problem with Read's comments, it does not hinge on her identity. Is suppose that it's regarded as relevant because people think that she's pretending to be a foreigner in order to make her naivety plausible, or in order to suck me into her game.
My understanding is that sock-puppetry, as we used to call it, was against Unfogged's very lenient social norms. Ben teasingly insists that he has evidence that read is who she claims to be, so I suppose we must take him (and her) and his (and her) word. That doesn't make her comments any less provocative, as Bitch has spelled out.
Anyway, Helpy-Chalk is right.
I think I remember that the neighborhood associations *were* started by republican political operatives. There was a bit about this in Rick Perlstein's Goldwater book, if I remember properly.
Basically an attempt is being made to run Read off the Unfogged, and I think that it's unjustified and erroneous. People have leaped to a lot of conclusions.
And secondly, Read, consistent with the above, you don't have to apologize if other people are offended at what you say. They'll get over it, or else they'll argue with you, but politeness is not the issue.
And last, your English is not a problem unless you misunderstand something we say and respond inappropriately for that reason.
H-C is right, yes, but the new earnest Unfogged tends to respond earnestly when someone says something. Old Unfogged would have turned a comment about read trolling into fifty or so different kinds of cock jokes, which would have taken us completely off topic and reinforced the ingroup aspect. But we're not supposed to do that any more.
259: Emerson, are you jettisoning the No Relationship Policy? Because that's big news.
an attempt is being made to run Read off the Unfogged
Not by me. I just want her to realize what it is she's doing that bugs people. Which she keeps asking about, you know.
I congratulate read on yet another thread jack.
260, wait, cock jokes are deprecated?
Communists took power without an electoral majority, then proceded to use their control over the apparatus of the state to make their party invulnerable to challenge.
Communists granted the people extensive rights on paper, but used their control over the judiciary (and, where necessary, extrajudicial imprisonment) to ensure that those rights were emptied of substance.
Communists believed they were locked in a mortal struggle with dark forces would stop at nothing to destroy them, and that the only answer was to spread liberation to every corner of the globe, by force if necessary, and irrespective of the wishes of the inhabitants.
God, this is too easy. We'll be done by supper time.
Makes you wonder why it took Goldberg so long to publish.
I've ditched Heebie and replaced her with Read, but my Heebie relationship was also purely Platonic, especially because she brought Jammies to the party for protection. Also, Heebie doesn't look Texan like Miranda Lambert, doesn't chew snuff, doesn't wear a cowboy hat, and doesn't carry a gun except perhaps in the intimate areas I couldn't see.
Or to put it otherwise, I think read livens up the place, and I think that her anti-American digs (which resemble things I've heard now and then from other educated non-Americans) were sort of fun.
262: If read is being manifestly annoying, make use of PASIIR.
Red is the color of the Communist party. Red is the color of the Republican party. (This is only marginally stupider than Goldberg's comments about the significance of red in the Nazi flag.)
There are two separate questions here, of course. The only legitimate one, AFAICT, is WTF was up with that comment "glitch"? Only read can answer this question, and I'd like to hear her say what happened. How did she accidentally sign her comment as OOTB?
The other one is why read irritates people, whether it's what she says or the effect it has. Having been the object of similar conversations, as John notes, I'll put in a word for the continuation of that conversation off-blog, if read would like to discuss it further, because having it here is embarrassing and unproductive. But it sounds to me that read, like me, would not appreciate emails on this topic.
Republicans support states' rights, which aligns them with the defederalising tendencies among the European Socialist/Green administrations (obviously communism's heirs), therefore Republicans are Communists. QED.
I pack an AK47 up my baby-maker.
cock jokes are deprecated?
Yes, the humorless feminists ruined them. Remember?
269 is fucking brilliant.
266. f'reals. "hmm. i need another chapter...but on what? Oh, how about 'organic food is fascist'! that'll do!"
How could that have taken any time at all?
Republicans laugh at liberals for liking pretentious high quality chocolate. Orwell talked about chocolate in 1984. Therefore Republicans are socialists. QED.
Communism was ostensibly "beyond race," while Republicans claim "not to see race"---both movements declare post-racism by fiat, ignoring the hatreds swirling beneath their ideology. Uh, Republicans=Communists. QED.
Communists prefer bland, tasteless, nationalistically domestic foods and so do Republicans.
Last gasp: I, at least, am not trying to get rid of read and think she's who she says she is. But that back and forth in the Hiatus thread raises a real mystery about what was going on with this OutOfTheBlue poster, and I remain very curious about it.
Post 158 in that thread is signed "OutOfTheBlue" but reads for all the world as a read post. As AWB says in 270, I'd like to know how that happened, and how to reconcile it with the awfully relaxed response of the "real" OutOfTheBlue at 160. 179, also signed by OOTB, also reads as it was written by read, and seems perhaps to be a correction by read to the readlike 158. It's confusing! Is this a server hiccup? A two people in the same house hiccup? I suppose I could just accept that many things in this world are mysterious, but it's eating at me. I mean nothing mean-spirited by it, though.
I knew it was in there somewhere.
Republicans wave the Confederate flag and claim that it has no broader historical significance. Your average communist would not recognize the significance of the Confederate flag. QED.
270.1 and 279 seem legitimate to me, and not mean in the slightest.
Ooh, we need a counter to the fascist organic food thing. Hmm. Under communism, the state was in charge of what people should eat, how much, and where they got it. Under the Republicans, we're all supposed to eat corporate food, believe what corporations tell us about its healthiness, and buy it from nation-wide chains.
Not very nicely put, because I suck at this sort of thing. But you know, the idea is that everyone was supposed to eat the same thing under the commies, and everyone is supposed to eat the same thing under the Republicans. Someone clean it up for me, kay?
Snuff-wise, I just met Miss-Minnesota-USA Miss Congeniality again last night at the bar, and she says that the only time she ever chewed snuff she got sick.
She won Miss Congeniality for the second time in a row. It's sort of a booby prize for girls who are nice but not competitive, but she seemed happy. She's about as cheerful and easy-going a babe as you'll ever meet in a bar, above all the very basic local bar I go to.
285 See 278. That link is great.
Republicans believe---ostensibly!---in the efficacy of boot-camps for juvenile offenders. Communists believe---ostensibly!---in the efficacy of labor camps for dissidants. In both cases, the shared presumption is that forced labor will either rehabilitate or punish. QED.
I pack an AK47 up my baby-maker.
Folding stock, I assume.
all these book suggestions are pretty sweet.
at the risk of being annoying, i'd like to mention the dissonance i'm feeling right now between skimming this thread, where we're much pre-occupied with a commenter, and there seems to be an awful lot of emotion over it, while at the same time reading this NYT article which mentions a pregnant woman getting raped and disembowled by child soldiers in the middle of a market and no one stops to help (presumably because the child soliders had Ak-47s, and were known to use them). I know it's banal to remind ourselves that what we find upsetting is relative to our environment. I do hope this wasn't horribly annoying.
Communists oppose independent trade unions. Republicans oppose independent trade unions.
Communists oppose ameliorist social democratic welfare policies. Republicans oppose ameliorist social democratic welfare policies.
Communists believe that religion is the opiate of the masses and scorn its tendency to blind the poor to their true class interests. Republicans believe that religion is the opiate of the masses and profit from its tendency to blind the poor to their true class interests.
Great, Michael, way to crap all over heebie's joke.
OOTB is Read's boyfriend? Girlfriend? My heart is brokern.
Communists believed that the only way they could preserve their revolution was by exporting it, by force if necessary. Republicans supported George W. Bush and his goal of "making the world safe for democracy"... QE M-F D.
BTW, it's Stras who's trying to run Read off.
Republican Communists: The Mysterious Past of the Right from Marx to Ann Althouse
Change Mysterious to Sinister and it's perfect.
Come to think of it, Jon Swift's blog is already doing what we want this book to do, albeit in blog form.
Richard Nixon had once proposed to his aide Bob Haldeman a strategy for victory in Vietnam he called the Madman Theory. "I want the North Vietnamese to believe I've reached the point where I might do anything to stop the war," Nixon told Haldeman. "We'll just slip the word to them that, 'for God's sake, you know Nixon is obsessed about Communism. We can't restrain him when he's angry -- and he has his hand on the nuclear button' -- and Ho Chi Minh himself will be in Paris in two days begging for peace." But Nixon just talked about the Madman Theory. Bobby Fischer put it into practice. And Nixon was right. Just a month after Fischer proved how crazy Americans can be, the North Vietnamese agreed to end the war.
*And* his blog drives conservatives crazy. He just doesn't have as high a profile as Goldberg. And sadly, he won't, as long as he's pseudonymous.
Which isn't to argue about the importance of Michael's book project, but rather, to reinforce how necessary it is. Michael, you need to make yourself famous somehow.
Communists at the highest level of power feign solidarity with the peasant/working class through cultural signifiers like uncosmopolitan tastes in food and clothing, just like Republicans. QED.
Communists have ghastly taste in (fill in the blank), Republicans have ghastly taste in (likewise).
I heart mcmc. Such a dexterous response!
I see your "uncosmopolitan" and raise you a "ghastly," AWB.
Communists ascribed dissident sentiments to mental illness. Republicans ascribed dissident sentiments to Bush derangement syndrome.
Communists complained about being blacklisted in Hollywood in the 1950s. Republicans complain about being blacklisted in Hollywood.
Michael, are you writing all this down?
300: Tom Friedman has endorsed the madman strategy.
In Republican American, phones tap you!
ok, we've got the starting points for arguments, no we need to replicate the table of contents, with "communist" in every chapter title but one, rather than "fascist"
Communists made sure that every town and village had a public landmark named after their deceased leader. Republicans want to make sure that every county in America has a public landmark named after their deceased leader.
We can't use "ghastly" or even "uncosmopolitan" or we'll reveal our sekrit hatred of middle America. It has to be something like "plain" or "old-fashioned" or "uncomplicated" or "traditional" or something.
I invented a whole scenario in which read and ootb live in the same place and ran into problems where read's computer was remembering her as him, but it may be complete lunacy
Hmm. Perhaps a premise for a quirky romantic comedy?
Out of the Blue would be a good name for a rom-com.
Bet He Blew would be a good name for a gay porn flick.
Into the Blue was a 2005 Paul Walker/Jessica Alba vehicle.
I. Republican Communism: Why that's not a contradiction.
...
VII. Why Nixon Could Go To China.
IX. Why Reagan and Gorbachev Hit it Off So Well
X. George H.W. Bush: Communism's Undertaker, or Successor?
III. Sibling Rivalry: The Cold War and the McCarthey Era
311: True. I wasn't thinking of the same thing as AWB, actually; she was describing the faux populist aesthetic, whereas I had in mind the crass-majestic (as in architecture and music, especially).
"Crass majestic" would make a good iTunes genre.
From the index...
John Birch Society, origins of, 79; attacks on communist Republicans, 83; fundamental truth of criticism of Eisenhower, 93;
"Crass majestic" would make a good iTunes genre dress code on an invitation.
OTOH. If we use "communism" are we not shooting ourselves in the foot, national-healthcare-wise? Maybe it should be "totalitarianism." Or "Soviet."
6. From Wallace's Dream to Reagan's Myth: Conservative Communism and the Cult of State's Rights
7. Conservative Racism: The Anti-Semitic Ghost in the Communist Machine
8. Conservative Communist Voodoo Economics
9. It Takes a Gulag: George W. Bush and the Meaning of Conservative Human Rights
325: Looks like a wrap. Can someone print up the galleys and get them to the NYT book review page?
clarification: i'm not a communist, though my parents were very idealistic types of communists, there many types you know, like carrierists and conformists etc
ok, it's getting like melodramatic
but if people are interested and asking questions
so being simple minded earnest me, i'll admit i wrote that comment under ootb name
coz i was upset, i was to leave the forum, then i read ootb comments and thought he is ogged, that he tried to cheer me up and just wanted to play along, you know i'm his fan from the beginning
that's the only time i used someone else's handle, and i think it's inappropriate now
just the ootb's comments were also like impersonating me and i thought it would be a jokingful response to whatever his play was, like daring him to continue the hiatus for a month
and i'm still curious who he was, the ootb and how long ogged's hiatus is going to last, though i'm sure the hiatus had nothing to do with my upset at the time
if you are interested in the story i told, may be i'll tell it some other time
now really period.
296: WTF? I'm not trying to "run" anyone off this blog. My position remains the position I stated in 104: Read is a troll; don't feed the trolls. This means that when Read gets randomly offended at something, it's not necessary to fall over ourselves to soothe her; when Read protests that s/he finds something insulting, it's not necessary to explain, once again, the norms of this site and why s/he shouldn't be insulted. I think I've made this clear a couple times but you seem to think this is some personal vendetta I've got against you or Read, because naturally everything I say is motivated by my bottomless sense of malice, and frankly I don't give a fuck anymore. Do whatever you want, think whatever you want.
Bitch, you are undermining the joke for the sake of creating the right political stand. That's not the point.
As long as the symmetry between our book and Goldberg's is near perfect, we will accomplish our goal of thwarting his silly argument.
Michael, you need to make yourself famous somehow.
Wait, I'm not going to get there by commenting on Unfogged?
I'm saying "dream bigger." What's the point of thwarting Goldberg's stupidity? He's a little man. Maybe we can actually do some of the work he's trying to do, only to our advantage.
The book is a genuinely good idea for a project. I'd sign up for a chapter, but reluctantly, because a pointed response to Goldberg's book would require actually reading Goldberg's book. The horror, the horror.
I've done some investigating -- Read and OutOfTheBlue are *not* the same person. 327 explains why that OOTB comment sounded like read.
OutOfTheBlue and no other commenters are Ogged doing some sockpuppeting. He really is on hiatus.
Bitch, you are undermining the joke for the sake of creating the right political stand.
Bitch is humorless. Republicans and Communists are humorless. Q.E.D.
OutOfTheBlue and no other commenters are Ogged doing some sockpuppeting.
The grammar here is a bit confusing, Becks.
Also, I agree that threads that get hijacked with patient explanations of basic issues instead of a discussion of them are not what I find enjoyable. It sounds like read is who she says she is but that doesn't matter -- the point is that I don't think it makes sense to change the whole community for a newcomer. If people want to take things offline to their own blog to explain the background of an issue, that's fine, but I'd prefer that not be done here. It's not trolling but it does prevent conversation for the majority just for one person.
I think it means that Ogged is not sockpuppeting on his own blog in any way, shape or form.
336 - Sorry. These are non-Ogged commenters. Ogged isn't trolling his own blog as someone like Out Of The Blue. When he wants to troll his own blog, he just trolls his own blog.
Ogged emails me occasionally and tells me what to say and what posts to make, which arguably is a form of sockpuppeting.
He'll probably tell me to deny 341 soon, so, you know, just don't believe it when it happens.
Resolution! I feel both satisfied and let down.
I think to sex up the book and increase sales there will need to be a chapter on Republican/Communist penis size and sexual practices.
Out of the Blue is an excellent song by the Band.
I have heard that despite having proclaimed the equality of the sexes, Soviet Russia remained quite prudish. Also, it is my impression that Communism frowned on abortion. And if I've heard it, surely that's enough evidence to print it!
Actually, if you haven't heard it about soviet russia, that's because the state repressed it, and they wouldn't have repressed it if it weren't true.
Russia contributed $100 million to Reagan's 1980 campaign.
Also: read, there can be no more impersonations. Ogged has always said that "no impersonations" is his one and only solid rule for the site. Do that again and we'll ask you to leave. I feel it was especially over-the-line because you were impersonating someone that you thought was Ogged because you, as a newbie, thought you knew better than the proprieters of this site.
That said, you are welcome to stay. I will no longer be providing background for you to catch up in discussions, as I outlined in 338, and it sounds like many other people feel the same as it derails discussion and is not the purpose of the site.
And I would ask that read, along with all other commenters, try to be charitable to each other, not engage in name calling, and try not to antagonize one another.
And know that people here make jokes with one another, that's the price of entry, and unless they're really over the line people need to deal and not get pissy and offended. Again, that goes for everyone.
341 isn't really true. Ogged doesn't email me at all, in fact.
350 - He told you to say that, didn't he?
I feel like I must disclose that w-lfs-n does not email me. But, I know what he is thinking nevertheless.
350: Ogged emailed you and told you to say that, didn't he?
Do that again and we'll ask you to leave. I feel it was especially over-the-line because you were impersonating someone that you thought was Ogged because you, as a newbie, thought you knew better than the proprieters of this site.
This seems harsh. The only reason that read's joke wasn't completely plain to everybody was because people doubt read's authenticity. When leblanc linked it upthread and I read it, I thought it was obviously read having a laugh. I didn't say this cause people obviously were asking for real proof, which I couldn't provide. I agree that sock-puppetry is bad, but since when has there been a zero-tolerance policy? Yeesh.
also, the class distinction between "newbie" and "propetiers"...I'm not down with.
I really should have capitalized Read in 355.
It's always been zero-tolerance for sock puppetry.
Sock puppetry has always been treated harshly here. Also, I feel sock puppetry aimed at the person who runs the site is an especially bad violation of the rule. It's like being rude to the host of your dinner party.
351 and 353 are both pwnd by 342, hello.
Actually, the treatment of sockpuppetry has been historically more nuanced than Becks and Cala are letting on, IIRC.
It's like being rude to the host of your dinner party.
that's like 90% of my comments.
It would actually be very funny if 361 weren't ogged.
363: Seek for clues, DS, and you will be rewarded.
seriously, for awhile the rule was "better make sure ppl know it's not the real poster" and then i think it morphed into "best not to use it, unless really, really funny" I've missed a lot of the threads for the past year or two i suppose, so i could have missed out on the zero-tolerance policy
368. what a substantial, nuanced rebuttal.
I should add that the reason for the change in policy mentioned in 367 is that we were doing it too much. Particularly that miscreant, Chopper, IIRC. So, couldn't have always been a zero-tolerance policy.
Do that again and we'll ask you to leave.
Whoever read thought it was, I think an ameliorating fact is that OutOfTheBlue had spent most of the thread trying to get people to discuss that read was more than 1 person.
For instance comment 4:
People!
Hasn't anyone noticed that read is more than 1 person?
and 37:
Seriously - are we all readed out? The read entity is more than one. React. Testify. Do down the revelator.
So I declare the "if Ogged does troll his own blog under a different handle in order to accuse you of being multiple people, then you (or one of you if you are multiple people) is allowed to sockpuppet under his sockpuppet to respond to him" exception to the No-Sockpuppeting Rule.
No, the sockpuppet rule was that you could do an obviously fake name (Barack Obama, Ben w-lfs-n's mom) as a joke, or you could impersonate someone if you used your own initial to indicate you were doing so (b-ogged) and your own website link to make it obvious. But you could never do what read was doing, and the "but it's obvious!" thing was never an excuse.
try not to antagonize one another
Wait, since when is *that* a rule? I thought that was part of the entire point of the site.
371: He doesn't, and you aren't, and for fuck's sake if people would just read the archives they'd know this crap.
368: Hypothesis: Goldberg is the new De/ignan.
The siren call of vibrant new work needs to wake our critical impulses out of their somnambulism.
w-lfs-n, thanks for linking to the Johanna Drucker excerpt. I can now remove her book from my Amazon shopping cart without a pang of regret.
Pang pang pang pang pang. What a weird word.
369: Par for that particular course.
the sockpuppet rule was that you could do an obviously fake name (Barack Obama, Ben w-lfs-n's mom) as a joke, or you could impersonate someone if you used your own initial to indicate you were doing so (b-ogged) and your own website link to make it obvious.
I didn't know we ever had rules that were that long and nuanced. Egads we're boring!
373: 71: He doesn't, and you aren't, and for fuck's sake if people would just read the archives they'd know this crap.
Hey BP. Bite me. Yes read was wrong thinking that it was Ogged, but OutOfTheBlue comes OutOfNowhere and begins immediately doubting on read's identity and haranguing when people don't respond - such as: Christ on a raft. What do we have to do to get your attention? etc. etc. So it is understandable if she thought it OK to post under the oh so well-established handle of OutOfTheBlue.
This post has been cleared under 372.3 as I'm was your 373.1.
Goldberg is sending traffic to the site I almost never post on any more. Joy!
His link seems to be based on the "No such thing as bad publicity!" rule, combined with "People who like my stuff don't pay much attention".
Fame!
or you could impersonate someone if you used your own initial to indicate you were doing so (b-ogged) and your own website link to make it obvious.
I think that "and" was really an "or".
mcmc, don't you think there's a more appropriate, comment-starved blog on which 374 would fit nicely?
What this thread needs is me liveblogging while I watch the movie Infernal Affairs. When I saw The Departed, I thought, "this sucks, but it would make an awesome Hong Kong action movie." Little did I know vast cosmic forces had already conspired to provide me that movie.
Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration.
Republicans are Communists, and have always been so, QED.
Okay, that's what I like about HK movies: they waste so little time on exposition. I've been watching the movie for five minutes, and already everyone's an undercover double agent.
Tony Leung is showing his age, but he's aged really well.
The scene where the police captain gives a present to his sad and lonely undercover cop is stolen from Hard Boiled.
Asian countries are not all the same, young Ben. Each country has its very own flag, anthem, currency, and Hard Boiled.
HK movies should never try to do the high-tech-computer-search scene. It should be left to American TV. On the other hand, they do seedy-back-of-the-restaurant scenes better than anyone else.
The scene where the mobster breaks the undercover cop's cast makes about a 100 times more sense here than in the departed. Here it's directly in service to the plot. There's it's just because Jack Nickelson is just so crazy, man.
Wow, the psychiatrist subplot is from Infernal Affairs. Psychiatry sounds like the kind of Western vice read likes to decry.
mcmc, don't you think there's a more appropriate, comment-starved blog on which 374 would fit nicely?
I'm too intimidated to comment on that blog.
While you liveblog infernal affairs I can liveblog the episode of dora the kids are watching.
Dora does more than any other kids show to telegraph the plot to the audience--remind the viewer of the sequence of events, the goal, the reason for the goal, etc. I'm pretty sure this has educational value in itself, actually.
The scene where the undercover cop chases the undercover gangster but can't manage to see is face is more exciting in The Departed than it is here. Other than that, so far Infernal Affairs is a better plotted movie. Since "plot" is not high on the list of things that are desireable about HK movies, it's quite an achievement.
more exciting in The Departed than it is here.
Huh. That's a surprise.
I'm sure it would welcome you and make you feel at home, mcmc.
390. I thought it made sense. It was for three reasons, right? Check for a wire, interrogation, and intimidation (DiCaprio was being a smartass). All 3 seem reasonable from Nicholson's character's POV.
395: It's a much bigger scene dramatically in The Departed than it is in Infernal Affairs.
397: It makes more sense in the original. The movie suggests that he really does have a wire hidden in the cast, and the mob boss smashes it just when he finds out that there's a mole. It's deployed much more efficiently.
393: Credit where due. Dora is boring as shit, but it does teach kids how to read a damn map.
So by "zero tolerance", which is a really dumb policy in almost any context, we actually mean "very little tolerance", yes?
Apparently they have bagpipes at police funerals in Hong Kong.
It was hard to watch the ending, having already seen The Departed.
Infernal Affairs is the better movie, but not as much better as I expected. It makes much more sense. The plot is clearly designed to set up certain expectations which it then undermines, while the plot of The Departed floats around on a sea of scenery chewing before stumbling towards the conclusion. Two things the Scorcese movie does better: One, it establishes a clear class contrast between the two characters (this is implicit in the original, but the remake does it better, though at points the remake goes overboard with it). Two, the scenes with Matt Damon towards the end are much more claustraphobic than the similar ones with Andy Lau.
I really liked the Departed, so I'll have to check out IA. I don't have Netflix, though. Hopefully they have it at blockbuster.
Tony Leung and Andy Lau are so very much hotter than Leonardo Di Caprio and Matt Damon.
I'm pretty sure this is where ogged first stated that impersonating other commenters is deprecated.
Fame!
32: Given the felix connection in 14 with JM's explanation I would suspect it's a near regular ol' American, f/k/a felix, come back to troll us all
Haven't got time to read the rest of this thread, but FWIW I'd like to say no, I am not read, or OOTB, or an American.
(32: aw, shucks)
Back to the original topic, I see The Editors have weighed in with a surprisingly insightful review of Goldberg's book.
