Re: Grownup Playdates

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Start a blog / comment on unfogged.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 02- 4-08 9:17 AM
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Oy. My mother too. She plays a shitload of tennis -- NYC has all these great cheap tennis lessons for seniors -- but it doesn't seem to have turned into friendships.

Dad has taken the traditional route of hanging out in bars. He'll nurse a couple of beers for hours while reading and chatting with the bartender in his local bucket of blood, and that seems to be most of the human contact he needs outside the family.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 02- 4-08 9:21 AM
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Living in a small town meeting people isn't hard, but getting away from them can be. I'm fighting off the social capital with both hands every minute of the day. Fortunately I'm well equipped to do that.

Churches and bars are the default gathering places, but there are all kinds of volunteer groups too.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 02- 4-08 9:26 AM
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it's hard to cross the bridge from "person I see at my class/activity" to "friend I see outside of class/activity" at that age

"At that age"? I've had trouble with this my whole life. In fact, I'm not entirely sure exactly how it *has* happened on those occassions that it has--meaning, I'm not sure what was different there than in the many, many more more times another person has forever remained "nice person I chat with at school/work/shop/etc."


Posted by: Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 02- 4-08 9:27 AM
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Any volunteer activity with rotating host duties would probably nudge her over the great divide.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 02- 4-08 9:28 AM
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I find myself in this predicament *now*, at age 31, with full time employment. It's not that all my friends have retired and moved away (lol), its just that friends are hard to find.


Posted by: stroll | Link to this comment | 02- 4-08 9:31 AM
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My mother went on an Elderhostel trip and had a blast. She is now email buddies with a bunch of the folks she met there, and they're all busy making plans to meet up again. Perhaps your mom could pick a program nearby, in hopes that those who enrolled would be more likely to be nearby.

A list of their Ohio programs is here.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 02- 4-08 9:31 AM
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My mom too. Unfortunately, the handful of vaguely suitable parents-of-friends in her city haven't panned out.

I know that something that's happened to me as I get older is that the past becomes an obstacle to forming new friendships; it takes longer to figure out what you can talk openly about (avoid books with this one, politics with that one, kids with a third). The older you get, the more past you have, so higher activation energy for new relationships. Be here now is a cute slogan, but pretty remote from the way people's minds, especially older people's, actually work.

I thought bucket of blood was a Chicago regionalism, but googling shows not.


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 02- 4-08 9:33 AM
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I feel like my mom has gotten stuck in the rut of only seeing people outside church when they need something. Someone's husband dies, and my mom hangs out with them. A very elderly couple wants a chill but sociable NYE party, and my mom hosts. That chronically ill woman can't make it to work, so my mom helps her get to the doctor. Charity makes a good excuse for seeing people outside of church, but it means that people sort of stamp my mom with "that saint whom we see when times are terrible." People don't call her to chat.

Also, my mom is really suspicious of people who call to ask her about her problems. She feels like they're lording it over her that their kids don't live far away, or that they don't understand the idea of being proud of your grad-student daughter who doesn't even have a boyfriend. I dunno. In a sense, I think she's right that church people where she lives don't "get" much about her, but all the more reason to write a blog, right?


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 02- 4-08 9:34 AM
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6: for most people, I think the post-school years are a lot more difficult that way. Unless you are the natural organizer type.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 02- 4-08 9:35 AM
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Trips are good and social - my mom was recently at our house with other grandparents and they bonded around the different places they have/are planning to travel.

Arts subscriptions - my sister and I give my mom a season of two tickets at a great rep theatre. It gets her into the city at least once a month, and she goes with different friends and relatives, who then invite her to other things they find out about.

Book groups run by those independent booksellers that are surviving on really caring about and knowing books.


Posted by: spaz | Link to this comment | 02- 4-08 9:37 AM
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I actually had an opportunity to make a new friend a couple weeks ago, but I blew it. I was at a show, and this girl started talking to me while my dude was off at the bathroom, and we chatted for most of the rest of the night. We had a lot of the same taste in music and she was cool. Then when she was leaving it was an awkward "well, maybe I'll see you around sometime," which I should have taken as my cue to say "hey, give me your number!" It would be nice to have a friend who's not a lawyer.


Posted by: m. leblanc | Link to this comment | 02- 4-08 9:40 AM
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Book clubs!


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 02- 4-08 9:41 AM
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You know what I hate? Sometimes I meet dudes who are cool out in the world, like at a coffeeshop or show or whatever, and I think "this guy is interesting," but I can't figure out a way to friend-hit on him without it seeming like I'm for-real hitting on him. I guess I could go with the direct approach: "so, I have a boyfriend, and I'm not hitting on you. Wanna hang out sometime?" But that seems extremely lame.


Posted by: m. leblanc | Link to this comment | 02- 4-08 9:44 AM
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14: I am terrible at this, especially when I am single and don't have the bf excuse. I have lost most of my male-friend-fu, except when the gentleman is attached, in which case I can do it. My friends' wives even let me stay in hotels with them, alone! I am trustworthy!


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 02- 4-08 9:46 AM
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9: Your mom is big on the "more blessed to give than to receive" thing. We had a church lady here who visited shut-ins for 50 years, and when her own health went bad she was a very surly shut-in.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 02- 4-08 9:47 AM
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Softball, though. I have made good male friends while playing sports. Perhaps I am less sexually threatening when sweaty and dirty.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 02- 4-08 9:47 AM
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Does anyone have any advice for helping older folks who need to branch out and make new connections?

There's always NASCA.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 02- 4-08 9:50 AM
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My 60-y-o neighbor has great luck with internet dating, in the sense of always having a psycho girlfriend.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 02- 4-08 9:52 AM
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Awesome if they can get people to confuse them with NASCAR.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 02- 4-08 9:52 AM
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I guess I could go with the direct approach: "so, I have a boyfriend, and I'm not hitting on you. Wanna hang out sometime?"

I think this is a much better idea than you seem to feel it is.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 02- 4-08 9:55 AM
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I feel like my mom has gotten stuck in the rut of only seeing people outside church when they need something... but it means that people sort of stamp my mom with "that saint whom we see when times are terrible." People don't call her to chat.

I said something vaguely similar at AWB's blog (or attempted to) -- I think the biggest hurdle can often be going from reaching out when others are in need and reaching out when you are in need. I'm still not articulating this very well. Alot of people -- me included -- can be afraid to burden others with their troubles (both trivial and deep). Or hesitate to share because that requires an investment of trust and some of us are really risk averse.

But when you are always the helper and never the one asking for help, people just pretty naturally start to assume that you are completely self-sufficient, that you don't need them for anything, and so they don't call, they don't invite. It's hard to be needy, but I think sometimes it's a necessary part of making people feel needed.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 02- 4-08 9:56 AM
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Dogs & dog-parks. They even make movies about it. Usually a good mix, everything from toddlers to the retired. Very relaxed. Outdoors. Easy exercise.
Few teenagers or early twenties.

It's a little weird & crazy, but there is a dog parade or fair every weekend somewhere in DFW.

There are reasons dogparks are sprouting like mushrooms.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 02- 4-08 9:57 AM
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Di, I think it goes beyond that. I think that a lot of helping people don't want to reverse the relationship and be helped. They get a big boost from giving but not from receiving. In the extreme case they lack respect for the helpees.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 02- 4-08 9:58 AM
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I don't have any real suggestions (though travel and book clubs sound promising), but reading the post and thread I was just struck by the realization that this is one thing I actually don't worry about at all with respect to my mom. She has a lot of friends, will be working for many more years, and lives in a place people retire to rather than from. There aren't really any generalizable suggestions I can think of from her situation, though, as it's mainly the result of incidental circumstances combined with a deliberate effort on her part to be maximally social at all times.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 02- 4-08 10:07 AM
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They get a big boost from giving but not from receiving. In the extreme case they lack respect for the helpees.

Or they may lack respect for themselves. I've had my own history of always the helper never the helpee and it had alot to do with feeling like that's what I needed to do to make people like me. And if I asked for help, OMG! People's know I wasn't perfect! Or more poignantly, if I asked for help, I would have to find out whether people truly like me or only like what I could do for them. I have figured out that, when you are always the giver from the get go, you tend to attract alot of people who are always the receiver. Which results in a disproportionate amount of disappointment when you finally do turn around and ask for help. It's hard -- asking for help is setting yourself up for rejection, and none of us like that.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 02- 4-08 10:08 AM
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One of my 60+ yr/old friends told me that after his divorce, he took to going to long theatre productions and operas. He explained it this way: during intermission, everyone is lolling about, doing nothing but drinking quick glasses of wine. It's a natural in: you just find someone and start talking about the show. Then, you might see them after it's over, and ask them if they'd like to go for a tea or whatever.

Apparntly, it works well enough for him.

Personally, I've always made friends through friends. But that doesn't work if you have no starting contact. In which case, I would say: do what you love and you'll somehow meet people who love that too. (However, this strategy doesn't work so well if you love things like playing solitaire in the bathtub. There are ways to get around that, but they are not pretty.)


Posted by: Scizor Cyster | Link to this comment | 02- 4-08 10:09 AM
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Adopting a vice works nicely. Drinking and gambling can lead to many interesting and long-lasting relationships.


Posted by: PeaDub | Link to this comment | 02- 4-08 10:09 AM
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I just shy of 40 and damn near all of my friends from the past 20 years have moved far away or are getting ready to do so. Maybe I smell funny or something. Luckily, I'm kinda hermity anyhow and don't really mind sitting at home with just the cold light of my computer monitor to keep me company.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 02- 4-08 10:10 AM
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28: Yeah, vices are good for bonding. This is actually what I miss most about not smoking. At stupid work functions where I had no one to talk to, I could just meander outside to where the smokers gather for instant camaraderie. Smokers really are a socially welcoming bunch.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 02- 4-08 10:12 AM
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vices are good for bonding. This is actually what I miss most about not smoking

An odd characterization of "vice", but I agree.


Posted by: Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 02- 4-08 10:13 AM
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6 - Stroll! Come to our meetup tomorrow!


Posted by: Becks | Link to this comment | 02- 4-08 10:16 AM
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30: That's because they know that they have less time left to live; and only other smokers appreciate their smell.

(Grrr... trying to quit smoking is not working so well for me. I miss the standing outside, the smoker's camaraderie, the long, deep inhales; the non-wanting-to-tear-flesh-with-my-teeth.... grrrr)


Posted by: Scizor Cyster | Link to this comment | 02- 4-08 10:18 AM
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My mother went on an Elderhostel trip and had a blast

I second the Elderhostel suggestion. My mom's been doing a lot of those, and evidently there are enough Elderhostel regulars who share her areas of interest that she generally sees people she knows. They're not exactly fast friendships, but they fill in between trips to see her kids and grandkids.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 02- 4-08 10:18 AM
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12: Shows are really fertile friend grounds for us folks in the post-college years, especially if you're on your own or just with a buddy who's obviously not a SO. Probably about a third of the shows I go to on my own, I end up exchanging phone numbers or some other contact info at the end. It's not weird to ask if you're getting along well with someone, especially if you find there's another concert or something similar you're both planning on going to.

I also agree with soup's 21. If a guy is willing (or hoping) to just be friends, the upfrontness is helpful and refreshing. If not, it would've caused problems in the end anyway. As with most helpful lines, the only difficulty is finding a semi-smooth way of saying it.


Posted by: Po-Mo Polymath | Link to this comment | 02- 4-08 10:18 AM
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[dumb pause thingy]

Blad Plumer has a neat, quasi-hopeful post up about the possibilities of solar power, which might be of interest to fellow clean-energy/environmental obsessives.

[dumb play thingy]


Posted by: strasmangelo jones | Link to this comment | 02- 4-08 10:30 AM
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I wish I had an easy answer to this. Most of my mother's social contacts were through her kids, and we're not there any more. My mother's still working, which provides a lot of human contact (not to be underestimated), but most of her outside-of-work friends are people she's known for ten or more years now.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 02- 4-08 10:46 AM
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re: 29

I'm a bit like that, except originally it was me who moved rather than my friends. I have pretty reasonable social circles in several different cities around the UK, and a number of very good friends in Glasgow and London in particular, but almost none who live within 20 miles. Each time I've built up a big social group, I've moved to study or for work.

I'm not especially hermitty, either, and miss socializing a bit more than I do. On the other hand, I can't really be arsed actively pursuing new friendships here as the odds that I'll still be here in a year, are slim.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 02- 4-08 10:46 AM
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stras, the article to which he links is rather complete. Flog that, instead.


Posted by: TJ | Link to this comment | 02- 4-08 10:53 AM
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The Scientific American Article on solar energy


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 02- 4-08 10:55 AM
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My mom, 70, a widow, and lonely, tried googling up friends from high school and emailing or calling. This turned out to be a real novelty in her demographic, because they think of computers as "the way you get pictures of the grandchildren." She made several playdates (literally--they mostly go to plays), and has a regular thing going with a junior high school chum she hadn't seen since a wedding in 1960.


Posted by: unimaginative | Link to this comment | 02- 4-08 11:12 AM
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My mom, 70, a widow, and lonely, tried googling up friends from high school and emailing or calling.

My mom did this as well, and she now gets together with them variously for lunch or New Year's or what have you, or just chats on the phone, on a regular basis. It only works for visiting, of course, if the friends are still in the area; though she has (daringly! excitingly!) actually visited someone out of state for a weekend on occasion.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 02- 4-08 11:17 AM
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21 gets it right.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 02- 4-08 11:22 AM
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42: An elderly aunt of mine Googled her high school boyfriend and it turned out that he, like she, was recently widow(er)ed. They live together now! All unmarried because its easier for these old folks with adult children to leave their finances untangled. Elderly Catholics! Living in sin!


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 02- 4-08 11:25 AM
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Elderly Catholics! Living in sin!

When I'm president, I will encourage this through targeted tax rebates and federally subsidized retraining programs.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 02- 4-08 11:27 AM
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Elderly Catholics! Living in sin!

At the end of the day I think this will be the only uncontroversial lasting social good that the boomers can claim—doing the grunt work of making it possible for their parents (and themselves and others to follow) to live together out of wedlock as senior citizens, which makes oh so much sense.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 02- 4-08 11:38 AM
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At the end of the day I think this will be the only uncontroversial lasting social good that the boomers can claim--doing the grunt work of making it acceptedpossible for their parents (and themselves and others to follow) to live together out of wedlock as senior citizens, which makes oh so much sense.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 02- 4-08 11:49 AM
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stras, the article to which he links is rather complete. Flog that, instead.

No need to get all snippy. I figured lazy blog-readers would more readily follow a link to a blog post than a link to a full article, and after reading the post read the article from there.


Posted by: strasmangelo jones | Link to this comment | 02- 4-08 12:12 PM
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9: Also, my mom is really suspicious of people who call to ask her about her problems. She feels like they're lording it over her that their kids don't live far away, or that they don't understand the idea of being proud of your grad-student daughter who doesn't even have a boyfriend.

So people do approach her to be friendly, or at least they have at some point in the past, but she sees contempt or an implied insult in it. She might be correct or she might not, but either way, this seems to be a very big sticking point. If she's correct, then the problem seems almost insurmountable unless she's willing to leave the community or her church. Which, from what little I can remember, sounds very unlikely. If she's incorrect, then the problem is in her head. That's not to dismiss it, just to say that rearranging her schedule or taking up a new hobby probably wouldn't be enough.

(Also, don't you feel guilty? You're the reason your dear old mother doesn't have much of a social life -- because you chose to have such a weird life of your own! It's all your fault!)

28: Agree completely. At least a dozen times, I've taken a conversation from the middle of a crowd to one-on-one or small group when we both go out to smoke. I've even started a conversation up out of the blue a few times that way. If I ever see you, and you're standing outside smoking and you're alone or in a small group and you look even slightly approachable, and if I claim to have lost or forgotten my lighter, then I'm lying.


Posted by: Cyrus | Link to this comment | 02- 4-08 12:41 PM
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48: sorry. I didn't actually mean to be very snippy. No more than a little snippy.


Posted by: TJ | Link to this comment | 02- 4-08 12:51 PM
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(Also, don't you feel guilty? You're the reason your dear old mother doesn't have much of a social life -- because you chose to have such a weird life of your own! It's all your fault!)

Yes, I do! Although I have to admit, I love how vehemently my mother defends me to her friends.

I keep suggesting that she try living apart from my dad for a while, or that they should at least move somewhere new. Their conservative Christian values unfortunately place them in tightknit communities with some real shitheads.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 02- 4-08 12:53 PM
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it was me who moved rather than my friends

Yup. I left fifteen years' worth of friends back East, plus being only a 3-hour train ride away from NYC friends.

It's just hard to make friends in a new place if you don't have a way in. Everyone I know who's moved has had that experience.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 02- 4-08 1:03 PM
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It's just hard to make friends in a new place if you don't have a way in. Everyone I know who's moved has had that experience.

This seems to be a pretty consistent experience with academics. You move a lot. Your friends move a lot. And you can end up places for 2-3 years knowing you won't be there too long, which lowers enthusiasm for digging in too deeply, I guess.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 02- 4-08 1:04 PM
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32 -- I would love to, but I have a big important thing to do tomorrow after work that inolves trying to find a new place to work. And I'm socially retarded and painfully shy which explains 6.


Posted by: stroll | Link to this comment | 02- 4-08 2:38 PM
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"Start a blog / comment on unfogged."

I'm only 49, but having had a once slightly popular blog for six years now, I'll note that the number of Boulder/Denver area people whom I''ve met in person through it is 0, other than the folks at that one Blogger Bash in 2004.

Blogs can be good for making friends, but for making local friends, it helps a lot to a) already be in a large city (when was the last Unfogged get together in Boulder, or even Denver?); and b) be a blog focused on local stuff.

Oh, and I got my first mailing from AARP yesterday. With a membership card. No shit.

After all, I'm almost 50.


Posted by: Gary Farber | Link to this comment | 02- 4-08 7:52 PM
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Sounds like you need more Colorado-specific content. Not that I know what that would be. Ski reports?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 02- 4-08 8:05 PM
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"Ski reports?"

Not gonna happen. Or anything else related to sports, or probably anything people do physically, be it gardening, plumbing, carpentry, or just anything with hands and body, including jogging, exercising, hiking, climbing, or any of a long list of popular Boulder or Colorado stuff I have zero interest in. (Too bad I abhor Newage stuff, since Boulder is a Major Capital of it, with Naropa U literally down the block, and all.)

Theoretically I could start paying more attention to Boulder politics, but it's almost entirely land use issues I really don't care much about beyond a few broad principles. I could pay more attention to Colorado state politics, but I really wouldn't be working from a base of expertise on the state.

Anyway, I appreciate the thought. I'm a depressive, so I'm inclined to be negative. I really would love to find some ways to meet some interesting/compatible friendly local folks.

Maybe being more involved with the local Obama campaign can help.

Oh, and maybe the "I'm almost 50!" would be faintly funnier to those who know I turned 49 in November.

"And I'm socially retarded and painfully shy"

Hello!

Actually, I'm far less painfully shy than I was even in my thirties, and I'm the opposite of shy once I get the idea someone really wants to be friends with me, and vice versa, but I do tend to have a lot of minority views, so finding reasonably like-minded people doesn't come easily for me.

After all, I feel like an alien compared to a lot of folks and discussions here, which frequently are based on assumptions just completely alien to me. (Ogged's Man Card post is the most immediate example; I have no point of entry whatever into commenting on that post; and I'm sure Ogged has had that experience on my blog -- whenever was the last year he read it -- as well.)

So it goes.


Posted by: Gary Farber | Link to this comment | 02- 4-08 8:34 PM
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Gary, I'm mainly just being a curious busybody, and this is utterly none of my business, so please feel free to tell me to fuck off, but isn't the 2008 WorldCon in Denver?*

Would that give you a chance to meet folks in Boulder/Denver who share (some of) the same interests/experiences?

* And will it be the first year that a WorldCon and a Democratic/Republican Convention share a city?


Posted by: Keir | Link to this comment | 02- 4-08 9:21 PM
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I'm happy not to have this problem. Yet. My dad was a salesman, and makes friends everywhere. It could be excruciating when I was a teenager, but then what wasn't.

I'm an active reacher-outer too, but nothing like my son, who is nearly always one of the popular kids no matter where he is.

It's interesting to read of Gary's alienation from the site, since I sometimes get mirror image alienation, when geek cred of one flavor or another is at stake.


Posted by: NĂ¡pi | Link to this comment | 02- 4-08 10:13 PM
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"Gary, I'm mainly just being a curious busybody, and this is utterly none of my business, so please feel free to tell me to fuck off, but isn't the 2008 WorldCon in Denver?*"

Yes. I've been fairly alienated from active sf fandom in recent years, due to a variety of personal conflicts, and other history I don't care to get into. I'm very ambivalent as to how I want to deal with the coming Denvention.

I have looked into any sort of sf-oriented group in Boulder -- although in fact I've read very little sf in recent years, so just as a locus for somewhat like-minded people, rather than to particularly talk about science fiction -- but for whatever reason, there seems to be absolutely nada, though it's true there's stuff I could commute to Denver for.

"And will it be the first year that a WorldCon and a Democratic/Republican Convention share a city?"

Unless I'm forgetting an example, yeah.

"It's interesting to read of Gary's alienation from the site"

It's not, you know, total. Just a fair amount. Anything having to do with sports, or celebrities, fer sure. And stuff that relies on knowing names of those people. Which is a lot of posts here.

Until three weeks ago, anything that required video. That's a lot of other posts around here.

Let's see: I know diddly about music topics. Posts about fashion: don't care. Stuff related to being an academic? Not much.

Obviously it's great for y'all to be into these things. They're just not my things.

So that mostly leaves me the occasional political post, and an occasional post on a popular entertainment thing I do like, such as The Wire (which I only see on DVD, putting myself a year or two behind discussion), and an occasional social commentary or oddity post (again, until three weeks ago, so long as there was no video).

And lastly, as I've mentioned before -- but this is not a complaint, since obviously the dynamic works wonderfully for a huge number of people! -- for most posts here, if one doesn't comment in the first fifteen minutes, there are already 200 comments, and I'm just not that enthused enough to want to plunge into reading that many comments before commenting, as a matter of SOP. For one thing, because to then keep up with the conversation, one has to treat it like IRC. Which, again, I'm just not, as a rule, prepared to invest that much effort into.

Oh, and it's also a factor that the conversation is so incestous and self-referential as regards previous threads and things said that I long ago found half the conversation incomprehensible. That's a big factor, as well.

Which again is not a complaint. I enjoy that sort of thing when I know what people are talking about, and I'd never begrudge anyone else the pleasure. It's just a bit circular in that when one isn't that fascinated enough to devote major study to a group and its microculture, one misses a lot of the details that make it so fascinating and pleasurable to the core participants.

So, all in all, I find myself not commenting much these days. Not cuz I don't like anyone, or don't want to. I just don't find that many points of entry, and when I do, it's usually after the conversation is long over, or it's when I don't care to spend the next several hours fulltime on the conversation.

It's not you, it's me.


Posted by: Gary Farber | Link to this comment | 02- 4-08 10:33 PM
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Thanks for assuaging my rather intrusive curiosity.


Posted by: Keir | Link to this comment | 02- 4-08 11:12 PM
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Two words: book club.


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 02- 5-08 11:25 AM
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Archtypically, I find myself writing one of the last comments on a post when I do comment.

That in itself is discouraging.


Posted by: Gary Farber | Link to this comment | 02- 5-08 2:19 PM
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See?


Posted by: Gary Farber | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 3:40 PM
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Totally not true, Gary.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 3:41 PM
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