Re: The least convincing blame-shifting in the world

1

You own rental units, Labs?


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 11:05 AM
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But you know, I think it's just that chicks are crazy. Like when I was with my Bad, Old GF, and she suggested that I should sex her lonely, virginal best friend. But when I do*, she's all, "how could you!?" "I was doing you a favor!"

Somehow, this incident did not forestall the succeeding 5.5 years of bad times.

* Actually, just a little necking. Maybe she was mad I didn't go further? Relationships are so confusing!


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 11:11 AM
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Talk it all out, JRoth. This is a safe space. A healing space.


Posted by: FL | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 11:12 AM
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You're only conclusively gay if you're performing gay acts, not having them performed on you.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 11:14 AM
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Obligatory link.


Posted by: Not Prince Hamlet | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 11:16 AM
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Wow, and here I was thinking that the doing/allowing distinction wouldn't come up in this context....


Posted by: FL | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 11:19 AM
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Who cares if this means he's straight or gay? If they're in a monogamous relationship, he cheated on her.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 11:25 AM
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Mostly, this is evidence that humor is the root of all human pain. If she hadn't gone along with the joke, none of this would have happened. (Or, it would have happened exactly the same way, but without the lame excuses.)


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 11:25 AM
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5: Why do all these landlords yadda yadda yadda.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 11:27 AM
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6: Speaking of doing/allowing, I once heard a criminal defendant testify that he didn't perform anal sex upon a 12 year old boy -- rather, the 12 year old boy lubed up the defendant, stripped naked, and sat down. See? Defendant just sat there! He didn't perform a sex act!

Don't worry. The jury didn't buy it either.


Posted by: NCProsecutor | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 11:29 AM
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"Shaken"? Was this a particularly harrowing blowjob in some way?


Posted by: Hamilton-Lovecraft | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 11:29 AM
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Come on, it's a little her fault: is there really a big difference between granting permission to acquire a fellatio and compelling someone? If you put poisoned food in front of a starving man, is it his fault if he eats it?


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 11:30 AM
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"acquire a fellatio"?


Posted by: Hamilton-Lovecraft | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 11:32 AM
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Totally hottt.

this is evidence that humor is the root of all human pain

Also that pain is the root of all humor. I quite honestly find the situation as described by FL hilarious.


Posted by: Robust McManlyPants | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 11:32 AM
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Tragedy is when I cut my finger.
Comedy is when you fall onto an erect, lubricated cock.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 11:34 AM
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You know, it kind of is about the boyfriend being gay/bi/questioning. If your gay landlord calls up and asks if he can have your bi boyfriend, you probably don't go along with the joke -- you say yes if you're cool with it, and "Hands off, buster" if not. This is on the list of lousy ways to come out to your girlfriend. (And if he's just coming out to himself, that's probably what he's shaken about.)

Still, a great story. People should be encouraged to behave like this so long as I don't have to date them.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 11:34 AM
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16.2. Words to live by.


Posted by: OneFatEnglishman | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 11:36 AM
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16. There's a world of difference between being gay/bi/questioning and being indiscriminately horny. We don't have enough data to know which this is an incident of, but odds favor the latter.


Posted by: Hamilton-Lovecraft | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 11:37 AM
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People say remarkable things to justify their bad actions. It is also remarkable that people who want to believe them will believe them. Anything to support their ability to deny that their partner has done something wrong.

"He can hardly be blamed for not turning down the blow job. Plus, he was really drunk."


Posted by: Will | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 11:38 AM
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Boyfriend eventually returns, shaken, and confesses that the landlord just fellated him.

Did they get a break on the next month's rent? If not, that's an outrage.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 11:39 AM
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the boyfriend is a human or a stuffed toy to be traded like that
doesn't he have his own will, how strange


Posted by: read | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 11:39 AM
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I'm with pork-amour here; not necessarily gay. Drunk, offered a blowjob, his surrogate conscience tells him to go for it...the end.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 11:39 AM
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12: I love that your hiatus still has room for a few good trolls. It's like you've retired to putter in your shop and pursue a favorite hobby.

Still need pointers from D^2 to bring it to the next level, though. Shouldn't it involve something about the old country and ex before last? Not BPL because everyone here will start breathing too hard.


Posted by: spaz | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 11:40 AM
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Isn't "indiscriminately horny", if you mean by that being accepting of partners of more than one gender, a subset of bi? Not that everyone bi is i.h., but being i.h. does seem to me to mean that you're at least bi-ish.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 11:40 AM
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"acquire a fellatio"?


You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike. Your lamp is dimming. There is a fellatio here. There is a threatening-looking dwarf here.

>>Get fellatio.

Congratulations! You now have a fellatio.

>>Throw fellatio at dwarf.

You can't do that!

>>Give fellatio to dwarf.

The dwarf appreciates you 200% straight gesture, throws you a twenty, and exits to the North. You now have a twenty.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 11:41 AM
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ogged understands just how easily that can happen.


Posted by: Hamilton-Lovecraft | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 11:41 AM
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humor is the root of all human pain.

LB: Humorless feminist - but for your own good!


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 11:41 AM
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18, 22: Keep telling yourself that guys.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 11:41 AM
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I regard having sex with landlords as a form of class treason.


Posted by: felix | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 11:42 AM
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Least convincing cover story in the world.

Labs, I bet your gf will get over it. Just man up and accept some responsibility.


Posted by: Michael | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 11:43 AM
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Keep telling yourself that guys.

Ham-love is bi, if I recall correctly (yeah, that memorable). I'm merely open-minded about the varieties of human experience.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 11:43 AM
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24: Isn't "indiscriminately horny", if you mean by that being accepting of partners of more than one gender, a subset of bi?

Um. No.

By "bi" i mean "accepting of partners of more than one gender and admitting it", but by "indiscriminately horny" I mean "really would like to ejaculate sometime in the next hour and willing to ignore issues of decorum, fidelity, and personal identity in order to make that happen".


Posted by: Hamilton-Lovecraft | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 11:44 AM
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25: I love you, JM.

31: "I'm open-minded. You're bisexual. He's an indiscriminate man-slut."


Posted by: Hamilton-Lovecraft | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 11:45 AM
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25 is completely awesome. It gives off pure photons of love.


Posted by: Robust McManlyPants | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 11:45 AM
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"really would like to ejaculate sometime in the next hour and willing to ignore issues of decorum, fidelity, and personal identity in order to make that happen".

See, now there's a rollover text. A bit wordy, but nothing's perfect.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 11:46 AM
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Is Ham-Love a boy or a girl?

Would you really get a rent discount for receiving a blow job? Wouldnt you have to pay extra?


Posted by: Will | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 11:46 AM
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34 is true. 25 is worthy of the great days of Unfogged.


Posted by: OneFatEnglishman | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 11:47 AM
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36. Yes.


(Okay, male.)


Posted by: Hamilton-Lovecraft | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 11:47 AM
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And then this conversation:

Her, answering his phone call: Hello, Steve.
Him: "Steve"? You always call me "honey." Is this how it's going to be?
Her: you just had your cock in another man's mouth and you're bitching about me calling you by your name?


Posted by: FL | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 11:48 AM
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"really would like to ejaculate sometime in the next hour and willing to ignore issues of decorum, fidelity, and personal identity in order to make that happen".

Going home and having sex with gf not an option?


Posted by: OneFatEnglishman | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 11:48 AM
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25: Certainly gives new meaning to, "You are likely to be eaten by a grue."


Posted by: NCProsecutor | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 11:48 AM
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This gets better and better.


Posted by: Hamilton-Lovecraft | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 11:49 AM
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I can't believe you ppl can discuss gay/not gay without knowing whether the story reached it's full conclusion, or went straight to denoument and skipped the climax.


Posted by: Michael | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 11:49 AM
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My photons of love, Barack's beshat solar panels---our marriage will solve the energy crisis, people!


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 11:49 AM
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25 - A hollow voice says "Plugh".


Posted by: snarkout | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 11:49 AM
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40: A world of insufficient data.


Posted by: Hamilton-Lovecraft | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 11:50 AM
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35: Agreed.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 11:50 AM
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43: Oh, I was assuming the act proceeded to climax. FL?


Posted by: Hamilton-Lovecraft | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 11:51 AM
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Going home and having sex with gf not an option?

I'm surprised a person from a country so famous for its pints would so woefully underestimate the magnetic attraction of the landlord's beer.


Posted by: Robust McManlyPants | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 11:51 AM
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Ok, on the gay/not-gay front, the conversation also included this memorable exchange:

Her: did you [ejaculate]?
Him: no, I stopped [maintaining an erection]
Her: did you try to [regain your erection]?
Him, sheepishly: [affirmative]


Posted by: FL | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 11:51 AM
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32: You can't really mean 'admitting it', or there'd be no such thing as someone who was bi and closeted.

I'd certainly agree that there are categories of 'mostly straight' or 'only occasionally bi', but I'd still have to think that if ejaculating in a man's mouth is a more attractive option for a man than ducking into the bathroom and jerking off, there's some non-straightness going on.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 11:52 AM
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43 is just like old times. "Its", Michael.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 11:52 AM
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50: That's hysterical. So maybe he's straighter than I'd thought. I did still include 'questioning', originally.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 11:53 AM
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To the extent that I would define myself as bi-curious (not much, but some), the fact that I once acquired fellatio from a drunk classmate (who was kind of insistent) is very minor evidence - unlike some other, more definitively bi activities, it has never been part of my sexual fantasies/treasured memories.

IOW, my experience tells me that getting a BJ from another dude doesn't feel all that gay.


Posted by: Abe Lincoln | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 11:54 AM
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More seriously, at least he told her! If I were in her position, and no, I'd not like to be, I'd hope that I'd proceed a little cautiously.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 11:54 AM
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If your gay landlord calls up and asks if he can have your bi boyfriend, you probably don't go along with the joke -- you say yes if you're cool with it, and "Hands off, buster" if not.

Bullshit. She thought it was a joke. If will asked M/ if he could "have" me and then I slept with will, I'd be cheating, because it's understood that we're joking around about this stuff.

(Not that will would ever do such an obnoxiously sexist thing as asking my boyfriend for permission, of course.)


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 11:55 AM
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51: Admitting it at least to oneself?

I should recuse myself from the question, as I actually hold the minority belief that the innate normal condition for humans is bisexuality.


Posted by: Hamilton-Lovecraft | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 11:56 AM
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my sexual fantasies/treasured memories

Known colloquially as The Spank Bank.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 11:56 AM
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Him, sheepishly: [affirmative]

It's like you were there, Labs.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 11:56 AM
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56: Kraab, can I have M/tch?


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 11:57 AM
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Yeah, 50 sounds less 'bi-curious' and more 'wanting a BJ'.


Posted by: Hamilton-Lovecraft | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 11:57 AM
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51.2 ... I feel as if I know people who are without a doubt heterosexual, but wouldn't turn down a willing mouth. I would propose a category of heterosexual, not hung up about it, and really horny. Whereas someone who was going to be with women all his life but was scared of his latent attraction to men would flee the blowjob in terror (or violence).

I find it hard to believe that no member of the Unfoggedetariat can testify to this state of affairs.



Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 11:58 AM
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56: Yeah, I'm importing some probably retrograde beliefs about gay and bi men into that hypo: mostly, that they're less likely to assume monogamy without specific, clear, negotiations on that point. In a het relationship, I'd agree with you: the default assumption of monogamy is strong enough that the conversation you'd be talking about would be a self-evident joke, and acting on it would be cheating. Throw an out non-straight guy in the mix, and my default assumptions would change enough that I'd be unsure that anyone was kidding.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 11:59 AM
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Her: did you [ejaculate]?
Him: no, I stopped [maintaining an erection]
Her: did you try to [regain your erection]?
Him, sheepishly: [affirmative]

Why do you deny us the slang? Trying to [regain your erection] makes it seem more bi/gay to me. If it's not happening, and you aren't keen on it qua experience, you'd probably just walk away at that point, no? Unless you're very polite and don't want to give offense.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 11:59 AM
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maybe the gf hasn't been giving oral lately. Finding no water at home, the steer was forced to search foreign fields.

Not that that makes it OK.


Posted by: Michael | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 11:59 AM
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58: The First Intercrural Spank Bank of the United States.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:00 PM
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the steer

This could also explain any erection problems.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:00 PM
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I should recuse myself from the question, as I actually hold the minority belief that the innate normal condition for humans is bisexuality.

Please to be defining "bisexuality". Are we talking faith or works?


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:01 PM
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There is not homosexuality in Iran. But sometimes, you do things because you do not want to give offense.


Posted by: Michael | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:01 PM
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Also, what the hell is the slang verb here?

I stopped [maintaining an erection]

I can't think of anything that wouldn't follow a helping verb, which makes it sounds like very clumsy slang.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:01 PM
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the innate normal condition for humans is bisexuality.

Yeah, I'm probably with you on this. Or at least bi to the point of not being hung up about it, whether or not you have a preference one way or the other.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:01 PM
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if ejaculating in a man's mouth is a more attractive option for a man than ducking into the bathroom and jerking off, there's some non-straightness going on.

Wait, I don't even agree with that. You're raising two scenarios. 1) BF finds his penis in landlord's mouth, is physically aroused, and ejaculates. 2) BF finds his penis in landlord's mouth, is physically aroused, runs to the bathroom to masturbate, and ejaculates.

Isn't scenario #1 more direct, more Pavolvian, just simpler? What would BF be thinking about during scenario #2? "Oh God, my girlfriend's hott, no, no, no, I'm not gay!" A bit much, no?

I'd accuse the boyfriend of being lazy and selfish before I'd accuse him of being closeted.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:01 PM
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63: Your default assumptions are homophobic.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:02 PM
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Also, what the hell is the slang verb here?


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:03 PM
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BF finds his penis in landlord's mouth

1. King Missile had something to say about this.

2. "All right, here's your damn rent and here's your damn late fee. May I have it back?"

3. "Sign the lease, honey, I think we've found our apartment. Just look in that man's mouth!"


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:04 PM
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Also, what the hell is the slang verb here?


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:04 PM
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71: Are there really that many people who think that Kinsey 0's and 6's predominate? IME, most people are of the opinion that everything's negotiable.


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:04 PM
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Odd. Anyway: I stopped wooding.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:04 PM
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Speaking of gay in Iran, did you see the "Mahmoud Ahmadinejad Roast" story in the Onion? Pretty funny.


Posted by: FL | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:05 PM
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74: "I stopped pitching a tent?" No.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:05 PM
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72: Well, no. I'm assuming the offer was made before bf's cock was in the landlord's mouth. At which point he can think either (a) "Ooh, that sounds like fun. I really like coming." or (b) "Ooh, that reminds me that I really like coming. But the landlord doesn't do it for me. Maybe I'll duck into the bathroom and jerk off." or (c) "The landlord doesn't do it for me, and his proposal hasn't influenced my need to come in the next half-hour. I'll wait till I get home."

If the most attractive option is (a), that sounds at least somewhat bi to me.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:05 PM
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78. No! Really?


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:05 PM
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I stopped throbbing.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:06 PM
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60: Dude, I'm a feminist. You'll have to ask him.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:06 PM
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73: Yeah, I was somewhat embarrassed admitting that was how I was thinking.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:07 PM
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No! Really?

Well, I'm just making it up, but why not?


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:07 PM
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mad libs, people!

Her: did you wave your white flag?
Him: no, I lost my harpoon
Her: did you try to rehoist your mizzen-mast?
Him, sheepishly: ahoy


Posted by: Michael | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:07 PM
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Dude, I'm a feminist.

That's why I'm asking *you*, Brunhilda.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:07 PM
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People, people, people. Gay/straight/bi aren't ironclad, black-and-white propositions. And the real issue here is that Steve is a big fat cheater, not a big fat gay.


Posted by: strasmangelo jones | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:08 PM
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I'd accuse

The "d" seems misplaced.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:08 PM
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did you try to rehoist your mizzen-mast?

I did! I did try to remoist my hizzen-mast!


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:08 PM
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This thread is reminding me of the zine for bi persons, "Anything That Moves".

Also, you can be gay and not be gay.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:09 PM
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77. Are there really that many people who think that Kinsey 0's and 6's predominate?

Josh, let me guess, you live in a good sized city in a blue state?


Posted by: Hamilton-Lovecraft | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:10 PM
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Her: did you get your solo in?
Him: no, my guitar went flat.
Her: did you retune?
Him, sheepishly: chick-a-bow


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:10 PM
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81.--- I think it's far more likely that it was all drunken shits and giggles until the fellatio actually happened and he liked it.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:10 PM
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89 yes.


Posted by: OneFatEnglishman | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:11 PM
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89: That's the real issue, but I would gather we're all comity on that*.

*Jinx.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:11 PM
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all drunken shits

I hate those.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:12 PM
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And the real issue here is that Steve is a big fat cheater, not a big fat gay.

Why does this have to be a "cheating" story, rather than a tale about a young man's erotic journey from straight to bi?


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:13 PM
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88: Real feminists don't believe in owning anyone else's sexuality, you Barbarian.

Also: no.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:13 PM
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It can't be cheating if you call up your girlfriend for permission, can it? At least not in this situation where there's no real issue of emotional or even physical straying--just a one-off, as it were. Do we know if he re-wooded and chopped down the tree?


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:13 PM
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Clearly the varieties of situational gayness are legion, stemming from the basic truth stated here by H-L et al, that we are all sitting somewhere in the middle of the bus.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:13 PM
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Her: did you win the delegate count?
Him: no, I lost my high-propensity congressional districts.
Her: did you loan your campaign the needed funds?
Him, sheepishly: u.s.a. u.s.a.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:13 PM
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95: Yeah, I'm thinking that "I wonder what will happen next if I play along?" was doing a fair bit of work here.


Posted by: Not Prince Hamlet | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:14 PM
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The boyfriend is a human or a stuffed toy to be traded like that
doesn't he have his own will, how strange

See, in Mongolia they're oddly attached to their boyfriends, etc., but do not form attachments with stuffed toys. What a strange culture. Stuffed toys are friends you can count on.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:14 PM
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Anybody who needs to revisit this story can now find it in Tim's Spank Bank.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:15 PM
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Why does this have to be a "cheating" story, rather than a tale about a young man's erotic journey from straight to bi?

Probably because of the alcohol.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:15 PM
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93: I work about 5 miles from your house. But I should restate: while I don't doubt that there are a lot of people who do think that Kinsey 0's and 6's predominate, I don't think that the opposite notion is some fringe belief.

I still want a definition of "bisexual" though.


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:15 PM
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It can't be cheating if you call up your girlfriend for permission, can it?

She thought it was a joke, so yes, it can.

The Mad Libs are all hilarious.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:16 PM
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I work about 5 miles from your house

Chick-a-bow-bow.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:16 PM
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101: The first part of 50 addresses that question, no? Which suggests to me that straightness and/or fidelity and/or fear of pissing off the GF won out over indiscriminate horniness and/or bisexuality.


Posted by: Hamilton-Lovecraft | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:17 PM
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straightness and/or fidelity and/or fear of pissing off the GF won out over indiscriminate horniness and/or bisexuality

Or, as is likely, he was really really drunk.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:18 PM
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while I don't doubt that there are a lot of people who do think that Kinsey 0's and 6's predominate, I don't think that the opposite notion is some fringe belief.

I must be old, then.


Posted by: Hamilton-Lovecraft | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:18 PM
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101: It can't be cheating if you call up your girlfriend for permission, can it?

Come on, Sir Kraab handled this one. If you know she's going to think you're kidding (like, if she thinks you're reasonably solidly straight) that's not permission.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:18 PM
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Bisexual means nonrestrictive in the gender of your sexual object choice. Capable of both being aroused by and conceivably acting on arousal by/with members of both sexes. Right?

It's probably cheating, technically. But I doubt the unfaithfulness angle is the most distressing for the girlfriend.


Posted by: Sybil Vane | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:18 PM
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(Not that will would ever do such an obnoxiously sexist thing as asking my boyfriend for permission, of course.)

Absolutely. I would try to keep m/tch out of the loop as much as possible. Perhaps I would have him go with BR to pick up some wine and food for us all. Maybe they would be off skiing at the resort while we were back at the chalet getting dinner ready. M/tch definitely doesn't get asked. There are just some thoughts that spring to mind.

It is cheating. Period.

I want to go back to the question of rent. Does he pay more or less rent bc the landlord gave him a blowjob?


Posted by: Will | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:19 PM
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He was drunk and curious and a willing partner was right there and in some people alcohol is very good at kicking the moral compass out of its chair and aiding in the manufacture of rationalizations. I don't think it says anything about the guy's personal sexual preferences that he did it once or that he was shaken after. I knew a lot of people like this in college. Some of them I simply knew and some of them I knew, y'know?

On preview I am opting not to include a lame joke built on a shaken/stirred distinction.

The problem isn't on which side of the club this guy dances, it's that he shouldn't have thought it would be OK to joke-ask and then turn that into for-real-asking as soon as the landlord hung up the phone.


Posted by: Robust McManlyPants | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:20 PM
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that's not permission

I know it's not permission, but she did have a heads up, which seems different from "cheating" which would seem to require some subterfuge. A semantic quibble, perhaps.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:20 PM
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55: If I were in her position, and no, I'd not like to be, I'd hope that I'd proceed a little cautiously.

JM's boyfriend's cover story is obviously rock solid. Probably it's best that not everything be shared with her.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:20 PM
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But I doubt the unfaithfulness angle is the most distressing for the girlfriend.

Why not? Is she homophobic? Biphobic?



Posted by: OneFatEnglishman | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:21 PM
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The problem isn't on which side of the club this guy dances, it's that he shouldn't have thought it would be OK to joke-ask and then turn that into for-real-asking as soon as the landlord hung up the phone.

Yep.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:21 PM
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If, however, there are shades of cheating this seems like a less objectionable one, to me. It must have been at least partly accidental, i.e. not premeditated, and is hot. The latter component being the most important.


Posted by: Sybil Vane | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:21 PM
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With regard to the gay or bi question.

Does a male mouth feel differently from a female mouth?

Surely someone here can answer that question.


Posted by: Will | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:21 PM
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I thought the consensus here was pro-cheating? Wasn't baa mocking everyone for that at one point. Add in a guy coming to terms with his bisexuality, and it's surprising that no one--except ogged!--takes his side.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:21 PM
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118: Straight guy, please.

I want to quibble with the contention that this guy isn't 200% straight. Isn't blaming the girlfriend for your own bullshit kind of a straight-guy standard?


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:22 PM
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It must have been at least partly accidental, i.e. not premeditated, and is hot.

Ok, I'll bite, Sybil. Please explain.


Posted by: Will | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:23 PM
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116: Boyfriend doesn't self-identify as either prostitute or john, and in fact for purposes of self-identity, the whole thing never happened. Therefore, no adjustment to rent.


Posted by: Hamilton-Lovecraft | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:23 PM
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Some of them I simply knew and some of them I knew blew.

Always go for the rhyme.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:23 PM
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120: while the post doesn't say she assumes her boyfriend to be 100% straight, I assume that to be the case given the joking assent to fellatio which she clearly didn't intend to endorse in actuality. Given the conviction in the possibility of 100% straightness, I then assume that having that certainty shaken is more distressing than th technicality of cheating. But it's a lot of assumptions on my part.


Posted by: Sybil Vane | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:24 PM
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Isn't blaming the girlfriend for your own bullshit kind of a straight-guy standard?

Exactly. Woman and gay men do not blame others for their bullshit. Only straight men.


Posted by: Will | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:24 PM
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127:

is that common law or statutory?


Posted by: Will | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:25 PM
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Does a male mouth feel differently from a female mouth?

Not according to Scenes from the Class Struggle in Beverly Hills...


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:25 PM
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Does a male mouth feel differently from a female mouth?

According to Aristotle, yes.


Posted by: md 20/400 | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:26 PM
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I thought the consensus here was pro-cheating?

I'm not pro-cheating, but accidents do happen, and it's best not to make a drunken one-off into a life-changing event unless you absolutely have to. Maybe one should rethink one's alcohol consumption levels before one's sexual orientation?


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:26 PM
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What a strange culture. Stuffed toys are friends you can count on.

This is a goddamn lie. All my stuffed toys are self-centered backstabbers.


Posted by: strasmangelo jones | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:26 PM
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126: Explain which? The accidental or the hot? Int he former case, I am guessing the boyfriend went up as part of participation in a joke, or at least something that hadn't been orchestrated by the BF and the LL. The hot part seems self-evident to me. It seems hot, in the retelling.


Posted by: Sybil Vane | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:26 PM
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cover story is obviously rock solid

Her: did you get off?
Him: no. my alibi didn't stand up.
Her: why did you use a law-and-order metaphor when I employed perfectly clear slang for sexual release?
Him, sheepishly: i'm an unfogged commenter


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:26 PM
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You shouldn't be feeling the teeth, md.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:27 PM
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Ok, I'll bite, Sybil.

A male mouth feels different from a female mouth.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:28 PM
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A quick check: No one really thinks that there is enough information here to conclude shit, right?


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:28 PM
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140: Yes, but is it irresponsible to speculate? It's irresponsible not to!


Posted by: Hamilton-Lovecraft | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:29 PM
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Teeth are the rumble strips of oral sex.


Posted by: md 20/400 | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:29 PM
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140: Other than that Labs' social circle is awesome?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:29 PM
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I can conclude something hot probably happened, but that's all, really.


Posted by: Sybil Vane | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:29 PM
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133. But the master of them that know was probably never fellated by a man with no facial hair. So he's fallible right there.


Posted by: OneFatEnglishman | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:30 PM
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The hot part seems self-evident to me. It seems hot, in the retelling.

I guess it is not very open minded of me to be surprised that a straight (I think?) woman is aroused by gay porn. Straight men certainly like lesbian/bi porn.


Posted by: Will | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:30 PM
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I'm as anti-cheating as anyone, but I think this is more than arguable.
LL approaches BF, proposes BJ.
BF: politely: You know that sounds interesting and all, but you know I have this GF, and we're exclusive.
LL: No I just called her, and she's totally cool with it.
BF: NFW -- what exactly did she say?
LL: [accurately recounts verbatim] So really, there's no reason not to. Hell, she wants you to.


Posted by: Nápi | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:31 PM
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140: Actually, I'm willing to conclude that inadequate-due-to-jokingness permission was given, and that both the landlord and particularly the boyfriend are malfeasant. I can't conclude anything about sexual orientation.


Posted by: Hamilton-Lovecraft | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:31 PM
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A quick check: No one really thinks that there is enough information here to conclude shit, right?

I think there's enough information to conclude that the BF handled the drunken stupidity/epiphany badly, what with the blaming the GF part. Jerky whether he's gay, bi, straight or anything else.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:31 PM
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Ok, I'll bite, Sybil.

Darn it. I didn't mean to put a comma there.

I'll have to ask her SO if it is ok.


Posted by: Will | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:31 PM
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Add alcohol to 147, and it approaches plausibility.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:32 PM
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the bf is a stuffed toy to not have his own will to refuse whatever it is to refuse to be faithful
i couldn't respect a man with that weak will
but whatever he willingly chooses, if it's his own will then may he is that bi and one can not blame him, but still shouldn't one be more picky about his choices, not accept the first offer by the first drank landlord


Posted by: read | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:32 PM
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Then there's this week's Savage Love where a gay couple is OK with on the side action but the neighbor thinks the guy is scum because they don't know and thought he was cheating on his boyfriend.


Posted by: Becks | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:32 PM
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There is a whole fantasy sub-genre about gay men written by straight woman.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:32 PM
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146: The vast majority of my women friends find gay male porn hottt.


Posted by: Hamilton-Lovecraft | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:32 PM
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146: Dude, half the Internet is occupied by gay porn about TV shows written by straight women. ("Half" admittedly, is hyperbolic. But a third. And I guess Harry Potter isn't TV.)


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:33 PM
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Odd. BR told me that the gay porn stash was her ex-hubby's.


Posted by: Will | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:34 PM
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It's not strictly the gay porn quality I find alluring, but more the narrative of 'i never did anything like this before but kinda of couldn't resist it in the moment' aspect. one has to totally squash the awareness of an emotionally hurt party though and just pretend that the GF was suitably intrigued in order for this to hold up.


Posted by: Sybil Vane | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:34 PM
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This is too obvious, I suppose, but this whole thread is an exercise in ethnomethodology or evidence for social constructionism. Starting from the rather narrow, judgmental conventional typology of sexual behavior, we're trying to construct a new typology. But our new typology bears the marks of its origin. For example, most of us ignore the active / passive distinction and the dominant / submissive distinction and classify according to the straight-bi-gay, repressed / liberated, and faithful / unfaithful distinctions. And we're still judging, so our distinctions are still normative.

This is one of the areas where social constructionism really works, in my opinion, and I agree with what I think Foucault said -- that "liberation" was just a transformation and in some ways an intensification of what it replaced.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:34 PM
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147: Yeah, I just can't see anyone taking that as actual permission unless the subject had been broached in detail before.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:35 PM
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Dude, half the Internet is occupied by gay porn about TV shows written by straight women.

Oddly, Dudette, I must have never seen that half of the world.


Posted by: Will | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:35 PM
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The problem isn't on which side of the club this guy dances, it's that he shouldn't have thought it would be OK to joke-ask and then turn that into for-real-asking as soon as the landlord hung up the phone.

True, but too easy. Presumably the phone call to the girlfriend got worked into the landlord's banter--"she SAID it's OK!"--and the guy went along with it. That's not smart behavior for a guy who wants to keep his girlfriend happy, but reducing the whole thing to a question of whether or not he was cheating doesn't say anything very interesting about it unless you're setting cheating up as the Unforgiveable Relationship Sin that, once identified, dictates what must happen next.


Posted by: Not Prince Hamlet | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:35 PM
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I think there's enough information to conclude that the BF handled the drunken stupidity/epiphany badly, what with the blaming the GF part. Jerky whether he's gay, bi, straight or anything else.

But what if the GF really let herself go?


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:36 PM
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Her: did you wear a snorkel?
Him: no, I lost my man card.
Her: did you try to do your own thing?
Him, sheepishly: wizard cocksucker.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:37 PM
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159: I like cheese.


Posted by: Hamilton-Lovecraft | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:37 PM
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112. we've discovered why Ogged doesn't really drink socially.


Posted by: Michael | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:38 PM
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The repeated BJ references just made me think about "BJ and the Bear"* in a whole new light. I was far too innocent to have thought of that when it was on the air.

(*I imagine you'd have to be between 35-45 or so to get the reference. Bad TV show about a pretty boy trucker and his chimp who drove around and got themselves into wacky situations.)


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:39 PM
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I'm not pro-cheating, but accidents do happen, and it's best not to make a drunken one-off into a life-changing event unless you absolutely have to.

This is wise advice. And has nothing do with Unfogged DCon, of course.


Posted by: Will | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:39 PM
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I assume that the request, the permission, and the acquiesence were none of them really overt. Because, really, how drunk does one have to be to say "pardon me I would like to suck your cock now please"? That just isn't the way these things work, usually.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:39 PM
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161: Huh. Slash fiction seems like one of those things that's referred to enough that I'd be surprised that someone who spends time online was unfamiliar with the concept. Are there a lot of people who haven't heard of this stuff?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:39 PM
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149: Jerky whether he's gay, bi, straight or anything else

Ok, yes, I agree with that.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:41 PM
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Because, really, how drunk does one have to be to say "pardon me I would like to suck your cock now please"? That just isn't the way these things work, usually.

More like, what can I do to get you to vote for my candidate?


Posted by: Will | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:41 PM
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OK, no one responded to my post, so the gloves are off. I'm sending an ethnomethodologist after your asses. You were warned.

My own opinion is that this story belongs somewhere in the very large barrel of arguments for my philosophy of relationships.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:41 PM
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This is fun.

Her: did you send it?
Him: no, I stopped to hangdog
Her: did you try to work it?
Him, sheepishly: I got beta.


Posted by: ixnaythemetier | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:41 PM
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I have a strictly het female friend who owns nothing but stuff from the gay section. Many years ago she had a VHS tape with a bunch of different copied films on it labeled 'Komedy' to distinguish it from everything else in the pile of tapes in her living room. One extremely hungover New Year's Day morning I awoke on her couch to hear two strictly het guys talking as they went through our hostess' collection of videos. One said to another, "Man, I feel like shit. I want to watch something funny." I then pretended to sleep, facing away from them, and tried very hard not to laugh while they sat in absolute silence through an entire gay pr0n movie.


Posted by: Robust McManlyPants | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:41 PM
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169: Yeah, I'd assume the landlord made the request for permission in a 'just kidding' kind of way, and then kept on 'kidding' by saying 'Your girlfriend says it's all right.' And then matters evolved from there.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:41 PM
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Actual, not arguments but "persuasive examples". I have several very large barrels sorted by category.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:42 PM
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Plus! It was the landlord, not the boyfriend, who asked.

Here's a good rule of thumb: if you're going to fool around with someone other than your primary partner, man up and ask yourself. If the fool-aroundee does the asking for you, then *he* may have permission, but *you* sure as hell don't.

Tragedy is when I cut my finger.
Comedy is when you fall onto an erect, lubricated cock.

New hover text. Also, 29 made me laugh.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:42 PM
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175: They would have turned off the movie, but a masseur had his thumbs up their respective butts.


Posted by: Hamilton-Lovecraft | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:43 PM
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the, drunken
but it seems i can use drank as an adjective too


Posted by: read | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:44 PM
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180: No, "drunk" can be an adjective, used just like "drunken" -- "I had sex with my drunk landlord" -- but "drank" can't be.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:45 PM
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You know, they were probably just playing gay chicken.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:46 PM
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Because, really, how drunk does one have to be to say "pardon me I would like to suck your cock now please"? That just isn't the way these things work, usually.

I guess I'm very old fashioned. Courtesy is dying out, and a new barbarian generation has taken over.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:46 PM
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So to test the folk typologies going on here: (a) If a straight guy gets a blowjob from another guy, once, he's gay? (b) What if he makes out with another guy? (c) If a gay guy sleeps with a woman, that makes him straight? Bi? Still gay? (d) What if he just makes out with a woman? (e) What if a straight woman, etc.


Posted by: Bave Dee | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:46 PM
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while the post doesn't say she assumes her boyfriend to be 100% straight, I assume that to be the case given the joking assent to fellatio

Nah. If a girlfriend of mine asked if she could have Mr. B., I'd say "sure," assuming it's a joke. In fact, I have done so. There's a difference between being pro-cheating and being pro-bullshit blame-shifting; imho, his cheating is a lot less angering than his pulling this "it's your fault" bullshit. I'd dump his ass for the latter.

153: I live in fear of that happening to me.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:47 PM
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Yeah, I'm importing some probably retrograde beliefs about gay and bi men into that hypo: mostly, that they're less likely to assume monogamy without specific, clear, negotiations on that point. In a het relationship, I'd agree with you: the default assumption of monogamy is strong enough that the conversation you'd be talking about would be a self-evident joke, and acting on it would be cheating. Throw an out non-straight guy in the mix, and my default assumptions would change enough that I'd be unsure that anyone was kidding

I kind of got lost in the blizzard of PC disclaimers above but I think LB is trying to say that the boyf is as gay as a coot and the landlord's a bastard, and I agree, or at least I do until it looks like being more fun to pretend otherwise.

PS:

LL approaches BF, proposes BJ.
BF: politely: You know that sounds interesting and all, but you know I have this GF, and we're exclusive.
LL: No I just called her, and she's totally cool with it.
BF: NFW -- what exactly did she say?
LL: [accurately recounts verbatim] So really, there's no reason not to. Hell, she wants you to.

This episode of "Unconvincing Morality Playlet Hour" was brought to you by Realdolls [tm] and five kilos of luncheon meat.


Posted by: dsquared | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:48 PM
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185: "153" s/b "179"


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:49 PM
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by the way, if FL had any hope that Rylean behaviourism was going to be kept out of the debate on whether getting one blowjob from your landlord makes you gay, save that hope for Obama my friend.


Posted by: dsquared | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:51 PM
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The answers to 184 are:

(a) totally hott and a rare gift
(b) not as hott but hey
(c) not a team player, Bave, don't you want to be a team player?
(d) drunk


Posted by: Robust McManlyPants | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:51 PM
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186.----I disagree that the boyfriend is as gay as a coot, but I certainly agree that the landlord is a bastard. If he wants to seduce the boyfriend, he should have gone ahead and seduced the boyfriend, not do this whack "trick her into giving permission" dealio.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:54 PM
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189: I completely agree, Robust, but I want to hear from the hets.


Posted by: Bave Dee | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:55 PM
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So, what if the guy was too drunk to meaningfully consent?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:56 PM
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The answers to 184 are collectively "whatever happened to the Kinsey scale?"


Posted by: DS | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:58 PM
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190: I disagree. The landlord's not the one pulling this "it's *your* fault" bullshit. That's the boyfriend. The landlord doesn't owe the girlfriend shit--she's not *his* girlfriend.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:58 PM
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170: "Heard of" and "have come across" are two separate things. I've heard of it, hanging out here and all. Have never actually seen any.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:58 PM
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I want to hear from the hets

I'll answer that since I consider myself hetro even though I've sleep with a woman or two.

[...]

I guess I've already answered that, haven't I.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:58 PM
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I want to go back to the question of rent. Does he pay more or less rent bc the landlord gave him a blowjob?

He pays less. The major market failure among older gays is a lack of cock to suck. The m seeking m posts on craigslist are a good example, as the "I'm looking to give a blowjob" posts outnumber the "I need a blow job ones" and I have friends who make money as sex workers almost exclusively by receiving blow jobs.


Posted by: Andy R. | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 12:59 PM
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192: Then he was raped, and *still* shouldn't be blaming his girlfriend.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 1:01 PM
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Plato's symposium allows the assertion "what is strangest of all, he only may swear and forswear himself (so men say), and the gods will forgive his transgression, for there is no such thing as a lover's oath" to go unchallenged, especially in pursuit of a beardless youth. So, was the BF clean-shaven?


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 1:02 PM
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Yeah, there's the Kinsey scale, but there's also this idea of (especially male) heterosexuality as a castle that, once breached, is destroyed completely. Like a woman's "virtue," kinda. Why was the boyfriend shaken after the blowjob? Not because he had cheated on the girlfriend -- because he had become something else.


Posted by: Bave Dee | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 1:02 PM
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194.---The "It's all your fault" business is of course utter bullshit. I'm kind of cutting him a bit of slack on that score because it sounds like he was upset at the time, but of course if he persisted in that claim, it would be a deal-breaker. I'd ordinarily agree with you that the third party doesn't owe the girlfriend anything, but calling her, involving her, basically making her complicit in an underhanded way, strikes me as very ungallant.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 1:02 PM
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197:

Wow. It takes a lot to surprise me. But that does. Why have my gay friends never told me about this?


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 1:02 PM
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184: I was probably the one closest to taking any of those positions. So:

(a) If a straight guy gets a blowjob from another guy, once, he's gay? (b) What if he makes out with another guy?

At a time when he has easy access to sex with women? And he's not so drunk/stoned/otherwise altered as not to be making anything resembling his normal choices? At least a little bi.

(c) If a gay guy sleeps with a woman, that makes him straight? Bi? Still gay? (d) What if he just makes out with a woman?

Assuming we're talking about someone who's out and comfortable, not twisting his own arm to make himself pretend to be straight, again, bi-ish. Although less so than for a straight man, because a gay man sleeping with a woman isn't overcoming as much ingrained social pressure not to, so it doesn't seem to me to be as indicative of anything.

(e)

Again, bi-ish.

I'm kind of coming from this from H-L's perspective. "Straight" to me means 'sex with my own gender really isn't appealing' and "gay" means 'sex with the other gender really isn't appealing'. If you're capable of getting into sex with men and women, I'd call that at least somewhat bi, even if you've generally got a strong preference between the two. And I'd say most people fall into that 'at least somewhat bi' category, depending on circumstance, with ostensibly straight guys being the likeliest to be in denial about it.

But these are only my own opinions, and are pulled out of my ass with most of everything else I think.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 1:04 PM
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I want to hear from the hets

I can give you an answer, but you'll need to call my wife and get permission first.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 1:04 PM
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The answer to 184 is that you just are whatever you decide to understand yourself as. If you don't care to, you won't fit any of those behaviors into an unappealing category. And one's life doesn't always, or I suspect even often, reflect whereever one mentally associates. I've had significant relationships and toss off ones with women, but have also been married for some time ; anyone who knows me (casually) in this phase of my life would have every reason to assume I am totally straight, and I suppose for all intents and practical purposes, since we are monogamous, I currently am. But that doesn't really provide any meaningful info about me.


Posted by: Sybil Vane | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 1:05 PM
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202: have you never seen Midnight Cowboy? Or The Basketball Diaries, for that matter?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 1:06 PM
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203: As Ted Haggard and others have demonstrated, the labels are meaningless applied to people. They only make sense applied to acts.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 1:06 PM
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Meaningless is probably overstating the case. They aren't particularly useful.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 1:07 PM
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207: Although, oddly enough, "queer as a three-dollar bill" still applies to Ted Haggard.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 1:07 PM
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200 gets it completely right. We're way too attached to our labels when the much more important question is whether one is happy in their current circumstance. My sister and I have both dated bisexual men. I couldn't give less of a damn on the matter if I flatlined; a happy boyfriend is a happy boyfriend and it makes no sense to me to worry about the gender or size or shape or anything of the people he dated before me other than that they contributed to making him the person he is. My sister absolutely couldn't handle it. I get the impression she thought her bi boyfriend was less than wholly male.


Posted by: Robust McManlyPants | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 1:08 PM
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200: Yeah, the Kinsey scale is precisely the antidote to that. And it would free up dudes like the one in this story to seek out the kind of sex work mentioned in 197 without guilt, so all to the good!

205: you just are whatever you decide to understand yourself as.

I don't think so. You can "decide" to understand yourself as completely het, but if you're not, your body's inclinations aren't going to change. That's why "ex-gay ministries" are a form of abuse.


Posted by: DS | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 1:08 PM
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167: BJ references just made me think about "BJ and the Bear"

OMG, I had a huge crush on Greg Evigan.

Now I'm replaying this scenario with him as the boyfriend, Pam Dauber as the girlfriend, and the chimp as the landlord.


Posted by: Wrenae | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 1:08 PM
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Why have my gay friends never told me about this?

They have. There's a reason you couldn't understand what they were saying.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 1:08 PM
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At a time when he has easy access to sex with women?

But what if he doesn't live in Nevada?


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 1:09 PM
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212.2: AGGHH!


Posted by: DS | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 1:09 PM
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213 is really funny.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 1:10 PM
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I'm a little curious whether this seems to play differently if the sexes are reversed: lesbian landlord calls boyfriend to ask if she can sex up his girlfriend, boyfriend says "Sure," etc.

Any difference here? Did the girlfriend cheat? I'm not seeing much of a difference, really, so maybe a pointless question, except I'm thinking the boyfriend might be a lot more startled by the question.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 1:10 PM
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The Kinsey scale seems to have held up remarkably well. The only objection I can think of to it is the Foucauldian one that Emerson gets at in 159 -- that a more accurate discourse is more free by way of being more penetrating. Setting that aside, has Kinsey been updated or contradicted significantly on that front?


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 1:11 PM
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At a time when he has easy access to sex with women?

I'm just trying to imagine how receptive I would be to having my very drunk boyfriend try to convince me that I had to give him a blowjob right now to save him from teh gay.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 1:13 PM
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Did the girlfriend cheat?

Wilson Williams says no.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 1:13 PM
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I think it's much hotter to live in a world where every straight guy is teetering on the brink of The Gay, and one drunken blowjob will cause them to plunge over that dangerous, sexy precipice into the abyss of taboo sinful lust that lies in wait below. That narrative is so much more dramatic than some bored drunk dude with his limp dick in his landlord's mouth.


Posted by: PerfectlyGoddamnDelightful | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 1:14 PM
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211: I guess what I'm saying is that the premise of "if you do X, are you then Y" is ludicrous. I can do X all I want, but if I don't fel like it correlates to Y identity category, then I won't see myself as inhabiting that identity category. this is not to say people should be encouraged to eschew those categories, or that for political purposes strategic essentialism isn't in order. And I'm not saying psychology and biology are distinct either. What I mean is more simply that there isn't an objective rubric for this sort of thing. I have sex with 4 women; for some people that would be enough to decide they were gay and live life as a lesbian. I went with bi, myself, but still got married and live a normative het life.


Posted by: Sybil Vane | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 1:14 PM
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217: Chances are higher that a boyfriend in that situation would be more titillated than offended by the thought of his girlfriend with another woman. Unless she seemed too into it, of course.

218: Not that I know of...


Posted by: DS | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 1:15 PM
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Any difference here? Did the girlfriend cheat? I'm not seeing much of a difference, really, so maybe a pointless question, except I'm thinking the boyfriend might be a lot more startled by the question.

Having a gay landlord you drink beers with and cock-tease is kind of sitcom-y, isn't it?


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 1:16 PM
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boyfriend says "Sure," "Can I watch?"


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 1:16 PM
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200: Call it the one-cock rule.


Posted by: Not Prince Hamlet | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 1:16 PM
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Yeah, I meant easy access in terms of days or weeks, not right that minute. If "sex with a man now" is more appealing than "jerk off now, waiting for a reasonable prospect of sex with a woman in the near future", that sounds not completely straight to me.

This is all screwy, of course, because in our homophobic society, "straight" is a big deal status claim, hence Mr. 200% Straight in the Dan Savage column. If it weren't, people wouldn't be so weird about the bi label, and more people would identify that way.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 1:17 PM
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The Kinsey scale, properly applied, measures acts in one's sexual history. The notion of sexual orientation is different from that -- we talk as if one's orientation is independent from particular acts, at least to some extent. I came out as gay before I'd had a single sexual experience with another man, and I don't think that was terribly unusual. The 40-year-old virgin was straight, etc.


Posted by: Bave Dee | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 1:18 PM
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200 is right. There is a lot of social "permission" for women to be bisexual, straight but experimenting, etc. but men have to be fiercely protective of their man cards.


Posted by: PerfectlyGoddamnDelightful | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 1:18 PM
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217: The easy answer is that the boyfriend would be turned on by it. The truth is that any exploration beyond agreed-upon bounds is unsettling, and also that unsettling is not always, in the end, upsetting.

Speaking from my own experience: when my then-wife asked if we could get with other people, I was much more comfortable with her seeing other women. If jealousy's wellspring is inadequacy, then I didn't really feel inadequate next to potential female lovers, just different. (This may be a patriarchal ego-booster, but it was balm at the time.) Of course, part of why I was so comfortable with that is because I sorta knew she wasn't, long-term, going to be into chicks.

It is possible that I turned her off the idea by buying her The Straight Girl's Guide To Picking Up Chicks as a moving-out present.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 1:18 PM
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I'm inclined to agree with 227.1 -- but it does kind of depend on how drunk.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 1:20 PM
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xyzzy: Does a male mouth feel differently from a female mouth?

Only if you get as far as the Adam's Apple.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 1:20 PM
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228: That's news to me. I thought the numbers were a matter of inclination, not a measure of experience. So the 40-year-old virgin of the movie who was inclined towards women wouldn't measure on it at all?


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 1:21 PM
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Will at 202: Incidentally, straights seem to be largely clueless about what gay people are up to on craigslist. The simple explanation is that a craigslist post requesting anything you can imagine on the m seeking m section will receive responses from people who are interested. That is either because people are legitimately sexually attracted to almost anything you can imagine, no matter how selfish, gross, or demeaning the post might seem, or more likely in the extreme cases, that there are people who are sexually turned on by being submissive/abused/whatever, and are willing to do basically anything to reach that goal.

One of things that most surprises my straight friends is that you can put up a post on m for m craigslist looking for someone to clean your house, and you'll get a ton of responses. Although most of these people would prefer some nudity involved (either you or them) and would probably like to blow you as well, it's completely unnecessary. For many of them, just the cleaning itself, even fully clothed, is adequate foreplay so that they can go home and masturbate.


Posted by: Andy R. | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 1:23 PM
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228: Yes, but there's no particular reason one couldn't talk about inclination in terms of a similar continuum. It would be less scientific -- you wouldn't be quantifying sex acts -- but it would probably be more accurate.


Posted by: DS | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 1:23 PM
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Does a male mouth feel differently from a female mouth?

Not if they keep their uvulae nice and clean-shaven.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 1:24 PM
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Would they be really disappointed to arrive at a house to clean and discover that it was owned by a woman? Because I'd really like someone else to get the outside windows.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 1:26 PM
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There's problem with the idea that he would be turned on but decide to jerk off instead. See, he's turned on: once in that state, the question of whether he should go with the flow or take care of himself isn't considered rationally with regard to his identity -- either he frightens himself out of arousal, he frightens himself out the door and stays aroused and has a freaked-out jerk, or he brings on the bloge.

"I'm turned on, but I'm in a relationship, so I should do this myself" works. "I'm turned on, but I'm straight, so I should do this myself" doesn't, at least to me.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 1:27 PM
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You couldn't talk your boyfriend into staying home? After all, only the man who's actually cleaning is gay.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 1:28 PM
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Will at 202: Incidentally, straights seem to be largely clueless about what gay people are up to on craigslist.

Andy:

I guess it surprises me because probably 50 percent of our neighbors are gay. It isn't unusual for my gf and me to be at a party where we are one of only one or two straight couples. I would have thought I would have heard a reference to it.

Of course, I am not thinking about all the extra money and blow jobs I could be getting. And, BR, when you read this comment, this is not a pay for our Costa Rica retirement.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 1:28 PM
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That a more accurate discourse is more free by way of being more penetrating.

No comment.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 1:28 PM
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238: If that was to me, I'd count 'turned on by the proposition' as somewhat bi, and 'turned on, but saying no because I'm straight, rather than because I'm in a relationship' as somewhat bi but in denial about it.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 1:30 PM
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The One Drop Rule is traditional.


Posted by: Nápi | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 1:30 PM
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I have sex with 4 women; for some people that would be enough to decide they were gay and live life as a lesbian. I went with bi, myself, but still got married and live a normative het life.

Two things:

Revealed preference. The concept is overapplied, but I think apt here. If you end up with a given number of experiences, they say something. One BJ received doesn't mean much (except for a f-ed "castle of het" mindset). A bunch of BJs received clearly indicates some level of bi. Sex with 4 women is clearly not super-straight, yet as long as you're still happily going with men as well, no lesbian either.

Monogamy. If you're of monogamous preference, then you have to pick a side. I don't think that in any way invalidates whatever bi experiences you may have had, or obligates you to have some post-marriage bi-fun.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 1:30 PM
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I have sex with 4 women

At once?


Posted by: Hamilton-Lovecraft | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 1:32 PM
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I've undoubtedly recounted this before, but in my early 20s, I was on the receiving end of several BJ proposals. From people who thought they could talk me out of 'no thanks' as the response.


Posted by: Nápi | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 1:32 PM
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Sex with 4 women is exhausting...ah, pwnd.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 1:32 PM
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246: Max!?


Posted by: Hamilton-Lovecraft | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 1:33 PM
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235: Oh, sure. I don't mind talking about sexual orientation as well as Kinsey's behavior-based metric. It's just fascinating to me how asymmetrical people's judgments of orientation are -- applied to women versus men, applied to gays versus straights -- and how incoherent the folk classifications tend to be.


Posted by: Bave Dee | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 1:33 PM
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You couldn't talk your boyfriend into staying home?

He'd talk me into cleaning the windows my own damn self. The Mormon Woman/Iranian Man division of household labor is turning out pretty much as you'd expect, notwithstanding all the elaborate discussing we've done.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 1:33 PM
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234.2: Holy shit. I should ask my wife if she would approve of me getting a BJ from a guy in exchange for a clean house.

Probably not, but she sure wishes the house were cleaner.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 1:35 PM
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169: That just isn't the way these things work, usually.

I can see how it would've been odd in the boyfriend/landlord incident, but speaking from recent personal experience I'd say it's probably more common among people who're relatively inexperienced and aren't quite sure how to ascertain consent and move the proceedings along. A lot like the "can I kiss you?" thing.


Posted by: Harry Truman | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 1:35 PM
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I would have thought I would have heard a reference to it.

What, and let you in on the action? That business is all about scarcity of supply.


Posted by: Robust McManlyPants | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 1:35 PM
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169: That just isn't the way these things work, usually.

I can see how it would've been odd in the boyfriend/landlord incident, but speaking from recent personal experience I'd say it's probably more common among people who're relatively inexperienced and aren't quite sure how to ascertain consent and move the proceedings along. A lot like the "can I kiss you?" thing. (Asking worked fine, by the way.)


Posted by: Harry Truman | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 1:36 PM
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I've undoubtedly recounted this before, but in my early 20s, I was on the receiving end of several BJ proposals.

Oh, was that you shouting out that information as loud as you could?


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 1:36 PM
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The Mormon Woman/Iranian Man division of household labor is turning out pretty much as you'd expect

Does he get turned on when you do the dusting while wearing The Undergarment?


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 1:38 PM
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251: I totally would've given my husband that permission.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 1:39 PM
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256.---I am not worthy of the Undergarmets, JRoth.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 1:40 PM
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Damn. I'd thought that first version hadn't posted.


Posted by: Harry Truman | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 1:40 PM
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I'm clearly going with the wrong cleaning service.


Posted by: Hamilton-Lovecraft | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 1:40 PM
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I totally would've given my husband that permission.

Oh please. "Take my husband, PLEASE!!!!!!!!!"


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 1:45 PM
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Gay men are weird. I'd probably go down on virtually any of my female peers if they asked me to, but I wouldn't fucking pay her to let me do it.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 1:46 PM
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238: he frightens himself out the door and stays aroused and has a freaked-out jerk

I like this concept of a "freaked-out jerk." "So very scared--and yet so horny!" It seems like it wouldn't work very well.


Posted by: Otto von Bisquick | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 1:48 PM
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"peers" being friends and acquaintances, not everyone in the world my age.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 1:49 PM
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264: Phew. For a minute there I thought you were a real slut.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 1:50 PM
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I'm surprised the desire to blow isn't solved by simple tit-for-tat arrangements; i.e., "I'll let you do me if you then let me do you." Or is the lack of reciprocity an essential part of the fantasy?


Posted by: Otto von Bisquick | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 1:53 PM
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Ned, your position supply-and-demand-wise, and constructed-social-status-wise, is completely different from that of the kind of gay men who pay straights to receive head.


Posted by: Hamilton-Lovecraft | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 1:53 PM
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I wouldn't fucking pay her to let me do it

I might, if I had any money to spend. Right now, though, I'd have to barter. I'll clean your house, laydeez.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 1:55 PM
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266: There's a huge double standard among men who identify as straight about the gayness of giving vs receiving fellatio, though.


Posted by: Hamilton-Lovecraft | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 1:56 PM
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269: I think he meant gay guys blowing each other.

Does 267 imply that the gay guys in question actively prefer to blow disinterested straights?


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 1:57 PM
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269: Sure, but I was talking about such arrangements being made between gay men. Or is doing it to a guy who identifies as straight part of the point? Clearly, I am naive.


Posted by: Otto von Bisquick | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 1:59 PM
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Any time of year is nice,
For blowing straight men once or twice.


Posted by: minneapolitan | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 1:59 PM
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I suspect that the fantasy is built almost entirely around a weird sort of double-reverse conquest. Yes, they had to pay to get the straight guy but they're so good at what they're doing that they got a straight guy and made things function. If they can forget that cash changed hands they can bask in having been the one to breach the castle of straightness.


Posted by: Robust McManlyPants | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 2:01 PM
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strikes me as very ungallant.

Well, duh. He's *gay*. Gallantry is a total straight-guy hangup

251: Next time Mr. B. hassles me about housework, I'm *totally* going to tell him that if he wants a clean house, he can easily arrange it by looking on CL.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 2:02 PM
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My understanding is that two gay men of comparable youth and hottness will blow each other with no money changing hands, yes. If you're an ugly older troll, the pool of people willing to blow you decreases, and you take whatever sexual contact you can get, making more compromises -- giving head without reciprocation, giving head plus money, giving head plus money to someone indifferent to you, etc.


Posted by: Hamilton-Lovecraft | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 2:05 PM
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The boyfriend knew what he was doing was wrong. Had he really thought she'd be cool with it, he'd have invited her upstairs to watch.


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 2:07 PM
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190: No, the landlord's a bastard. He telephoned the girlfriend (who I think we can all agree is more or less blameless) and allowed her to think she was sharing a joke and being all friends together with him, whereas he was in fact laughing at her, no doubt chuckling to himself inside at the hilariousness of the fact that she didn't know he really was planning to do something that would be more or less bound to hurt her. Perhaps this is just my Welsh blood speaking, but that's the sort of insult that people murder for, and in a more civilised age the courts wouldn't have convicted.

One BJ received doesn't mean much

it does you know.


Posted by: dsquared | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 2:07 PM
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273: Sounds a lot like straight guys who pay female prostitutes to let them go down on them. I remember reading an interview with a prostitute talking about it, and she said that virtually every john who wanted that said "I bet none of your other johns do this."


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 2:09 PM
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What's awesome about 277 is that he's responding to someone who agrees with him.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 2:09 PM
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275: Yeah, I think the only weird bit of that from a het perspective is that even undesirable straight men would (more often than for gay men, anyway) rather not get sex at all or pay extra to be serviced, rather than paying to service a woman without reciprocation. That'd be a seriously minority taste among straight men, and it's not crazy uncommon for gay men.

OT: And I've been commenting all day, and I have crazy too much work to do, none of which would be my problem if the goddamn new job would call so I could give notice. (Okay, I'd still need to do this stuff, there's not time to get someone else to. But from an entirely different position, politically.) I need to get to goddam work already.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 2:10 PM
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That'd be a seriously minority taste among straight men,

Pwned by 278, and apparently I'm dead wrong.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 2:14 PM
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I'll clean your house, laydeez.

Done.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 2:15 PM
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281: Wrong, perhaps. But the pun remains excellent.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 2:15 PM
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To make my point more vividly: this all as intelligible to me as Nuer discussions of the ritual purity of cattle or the divinitory significance of bird omens. Obviously everybody thinks that there's an answer out there somewhere, but I completely doubt it.

But I have enormous respect for you, your colorful way of life, and your seemingly-ridiculous but actually profoundly significant beliefs. Unlike Philip Roth's protagonist, I am not one to scorn the Hottentots and Zulus.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 2:21 PM
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278: Yeah, I've heard that somewhere before.

Oh, now I remember: from my regular Thursday afternoon.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 2:21 PM
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281: Yeah, I was going to say that it's probably way more common that you'd imagine.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 2:22 PM
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More specifically, there are plenty of men who pay tons of money just to look at naked women, with no reciprocation.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 2:24 PM
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Apo, if I send you naked pictures, will you clean my stove and mop the floors? Kthx.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 2:26 PM
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284: Emerson, I love you and all, but don't hold your breath waiting for us to take the bait.


Posted by: Hamilton-Lovecraft | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 2:29 PM
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You live 3000 miles away, B. If you send me naked pictures, I'll clean my stove (IYKWIM) and mop my floors and Roberta will probably send you flowers or something out of gratitude.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 2:30 PM
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Roberta will probably send you flowers or something naked photos out of gratitude


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 2:30 PM
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288: B, if you pay me, I'll look at your naked pictures.


Posted by: Hamilton-Lovecraft | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 2:31 PM
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We could set up a big swap like with the mix CDs, but with naked photos.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 2:33 PM
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As a feminist, I insist on only looking at naked pictures in which the women outnumber the men.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 2:33 PM
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Eh, I don't want flowers. My mil sent me flowers for my bday (which was very kind of her) and now they're all dead and still sitting in the vase b/c it's just another damn thing to clean up.

Maybe we can arrange a swap, whereby R. and I send naked pictures to one another's spouses, and said spouses do the housekeeping while R. and I go out to bars and drunkenly text message each other.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 2:33 PM
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Pwned by 293.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 2:34 PM
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Oo, I need to mop my floors, too! Send me naked pictures, B!


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 2:34 PM
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297: Only if you'll use them to make your Iranian bf do the mopping. I refuse to perpetuate the inequitable distribution of household labor you seem to have going there.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 2:36 PM
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289: Damn you, Hovercraft. But seriously, there's no answer out there. You're all constructing a fragile local consensus, and you might end up agreeing on the proximate case, but when the next case comes up you'll all have to start from scratch. Too many balls in the air.

Also, honesty and straightforwardness are impossible in relationships, so you are forbidden to use that particular widget as an element in the corpus of relationship canon law.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 2:36 PM
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Oo, I need to mop my floors, too! Send me naked pictures, B!

Maybe the existing Unfogged database of c0ck photos could be employed to motivate people into doing chores.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 2:37 PM
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there's no answer out there. You're all constructing a fragile local consensus

So, you are a metaphysician, yes?


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 2:37 PM
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293: I have yet to print the covers and send my mix CDs out. I see a convenient solution here.


Posted by: Po-Mo Polymath | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 2:39 PM
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299
JE, i thought you promised me your CD mix and i did not get it yet


Posted by: read | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 2:42 PM
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287: Yeah, but the women aren't getting anything out of that, beyond what they were paid to pose. Can we just say paying to sexually service someone seems to be commoner among gay men than straight men?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 2:44 PM
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Read, it is on the way but was very late. I lost your address and kept procrastinating. More explanation later.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 2:45 PM
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As apparently must forever be reiterated, there is no unfogged c0ck database, because the men of unfogged are, ironically, all pussies. Time and again I've tried to get the women of unfogged to prove how much better they are, but no takers.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 2:45 PM
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301: Metaphysics is easy, relationship canon law is impossible. Too many square circles and unicorns.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 2:46 PM
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Too many balls in the air

ATM.


Posted by: Robust McManlyPants | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 2:46 PM
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ok, thanks
should i send you an e-mail with the address?


Posted by: read | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 2:47 PM
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there is no unfogged c0ck database

Which is not to say that a bunch of guys didn't send in cock pictures that are in some email folder somewhere.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 2:48 PM
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298.---If you're going to attach conditions to them, I can make my own naked girlie pictures!


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 2:49 PM
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The cock database better not be some MS Access bullshit.


Posted by: Otto von Bisquick | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 2:51 PM
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Yeah, but the women aren't getting anything out of that, beyond what they were paid to pose. Can we just say paying to sexually service someone seems to be commoner among gay men than straight men?

If so, an explanation could be that when servicing a man, one receives concrete evidence that one has successfully provided him with satisfaction/pleasure, which is always in doubt with a woman, particularly since you've paid her and she could easily just be saying what you want to hear.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 2:52 PM
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Read -- no, I found it. Sorry.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 2:52 PM
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Cock database.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 2:56 PM
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I too must apologize for being late with my mix CDs. Hope to finish them this weekend. But I will give blowjobs in lieu of a CD to anyone who asks.


Posted by: Bave Dee | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 2:56 PM
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I don't know what it says about me, but I can't imagine wanting to give a blowjob or oral sex. I could see doing it reciprocally or as a favor, but it doesn't turn me on at all. Maybe my mouth is de-eroticized, what with 50 years of fillings, rootcanals, tootaches, and extractions.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 2:58 PM
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311 - Hm. I was at the Second Saturday artwalk with couple that spent a long time buying a couple photos for their 'bathroom nudes'. They chose lovely torso shots, but I remember being very confused by the whole thing. The wife is gorgeous and not shy, so why wouldn't you go for the extra authenticity of taking torso pictures of your own gorgeous wife and doing art-y type contrast things and putting those up in your bathroom?

But then I figured that it might be kinda personal to use the bathroom and then come out and look at your hostess and be all "that's you, huh?"

(Only tangentially related: These NSFW paintings are hanging at my gym in all their six foot by six foot vivid glory. They're pretty cool, actually. I have been invoking the power of the naked ladies to help me lift heavier things.)


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 3:02 PM
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311:

Masturbating to pictures of oneself: liberation? The last taboo? The ultimate transgression? Or super-lame?

Tune in to Modern Love At the Mineshaft. tonight!


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 3:04 PM
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Was I supposed to masturbate to the naked B pictures?


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 3:06 PM
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Awkward comes in many flavors.


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 3:10 PM
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Was I supposed to masturbate to the naked B pictures?

Yes, and then send pictures of you masturbating to B's pictures to 10 people, who will then send pictures of themselves masturbating to pictures of you masturbating to B's pictures to 10 of their friends. And in just three weeks, Exxon and Mobil will be forced to lower the price of gas back below $2/gallon.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 3:11 PM
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Yes We Can!


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 3:11 PM
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Exxon and Mobil will be forced to lower the price of gas back below $2/gallon because everyone will be home masturbating instead of driving around.

It could work!


Posted by: Not Prince Hamlet | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 3:25 PM
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Masturbate for energy/orgasm independence!


Posted by: Bave Dee | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 3:27 PM
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Yeah, people who are currently masturbating while driving around will now be at home looking at all these photos.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 3:27 PM
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paying to service a woman without reciprocation. That'd be a seriously minority taste among straight men,

I rather doubt that. Women consistently underestimate just how freaky straight men are. Given the amount men pay just to see a woman naked at a distance, I'm sure many would pay plenty for anything involving touching a naked woman.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 3:35 PM
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327: Viewing a woman from a distance is a lot safer, self-identity-wise, than paying a woman to cunniling her.

That said, I suspect that the latter is, indeed, more common than imagined.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 3:37 PM
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Women consistently underestimate just how freaky straight men are.

And as we all know, going down on women is totally freaky.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 3:44 PM
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322: Beat It Forward.

The only problem(?) is apo will have to get stabbed to death. But we'll think of him everytime we fill our Hummers with that sweet $2 gas.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 3:44 PM
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327, 328: I'm really not meaning to get all up in straight men's grills, collectively, about what they'll pay for and what they won't. But, while I'm neither a straight nor a gay man, conversations about what gay men who pay for sex will pay for seem to generally come down as saying that paying to give a blowjob is absolutely ordinary and conventional. A straight man paying a woman to give her oral sex, the story is more "I've heard of someone who did that, and heck, men'll pay for anything." But there still aren't lines of hookers waiting to get eaten out by the Holland Tunnel.

So, while I don't have data, it looks to me as if there's a statistical difference between the proclivities of gay and straight men who pay for sex in this regard.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 3:44 PM
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311: I'll only whore myself out for feminism.

Can we just say paying to sexually service someone seems to be commoner among gay men than straight men?

Seems, sure. Is?


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 3:47 PM
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331: waiting to get eaten out by the Holland Tunnel.

How does the mouth of the Holland Tunnel compare to men's and women's mouths?


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 3:47 PM
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And as we all know, going down on women is totally freaky.

All sex is freaky when it's done right.

But the paying for it thing is what would be unusual.


Posted by: PerfectlyGoddamnDelightful | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 3:51 PM
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331

"So, while I don't have data, it looks to me as if there's a statistical difference between the proclivities of gay and straight men who pay for sex in this regard."

Maybe, but there is a whole category of female prostitutes (domintrixes) who cater to this sort of thing. And magazines like Variations had a fair number of "fem dom" stories.


Posted by: James B. Shearer | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 3:59 PM
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I find it really hurtful whenpeople ignore my trolls. Especially if they're Hottentots.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 3:59 PM
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honesty and straightforwardness are impossible in relationships

Is wrong.

I also can't believe nobody seems to have pointed out in the first part of the thread that a mouth is a mouth is a mouth is a mouth.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 4:00 PM
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We have informed testimony from H-L that there are differences.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 4:01 PM
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335: As I said, I'm making a claim that the practice in question is completely mainstream among gay men who pay for sex, and at least somewhat unusual among straight men who pay for sex. I could be wrong -- I'm working off anecdotal impressions, and I don't have stats.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 4:04 PM
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a mouth is a mouth is a mouth is a mouth

Not true!


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 4:06 PM
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Oh christ, apostropher. Now how am I going to get my house cleaned?


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 4:08 PM
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Maybe, but there is a whole category of female prostitutes (domintrixes) who cater to this sort of thing.

No, that's not the same sort of thing. There may be a bit of overlap.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 4:09 PM
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Never mind male mouths and female mouths, it's getting harder to tell mouths from vaginas these days.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 4:12 PM
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340: read that comment as applying to gender only

338: The intra variation swamps the inter.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 4:13 PM
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swamps the inter

YONIC SYMBOLISM NOT NEEDED


Posted by: OPINIONATED GRANDMA | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 4:15 PM
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335: Because, naturally, any man who wanted his partner to be sexually satisfied is a masochist.

the paying for it thing is what would be unusual.

Don't you always end up paying, one way or the other?

I ban myself.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 4:26 PM
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Because, naturally, any man who wanted his partner to be sexually satisfied is a masochist.

I think someone who wants his partner, who is a stranger to him and being paid to be his partner, to be sexually satisfied, while he himself is not sexually satisfied, may be likely to be a masochist. But not guaranteed to be.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 4:28 PM
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342

"No, that's not the same sort of thing. There may be a bit of overlap"

Really? The cleaning house thing is common to both.


Posted by: James B. Shearer | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 4:32 PM
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The topic's been skipping around -- I understood it currently to be paying to give unreciprocated oral sex, not people who get off on housecleaning. But it's all part of the great web of being, I suppose.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 4:37 PM
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349

"... not people who get off on housecleaning. "

They don't get off on housecleaning per se, they get off on being degraded and humiliated.


Posted by: James B. Shearer | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 4:41 PM
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Do they do good housecleaning?


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 4:44 PM
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347: So guys who enjoy porn without necessarily masturbating are masochists. Uh huh.

350: Maybe they get off on feeling helpful and appreciated and admired. Or on performing a traditionally gendered role.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 4:48 PM
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352.1: Yes, exactly. Except that there's no partner involved in that scenario, so that is a non sequitur.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 4:53 PM
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352.1: I agree with Cryptic Ned on this. You're probably a masochist if you subject yourself to the full force of terrible porn acting without the mitigating factor of masturbation.


Posted by: Po-Mo Polymath | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 5:08 PM
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Emerson: fine, I'll bite. You may be pleased to know that an analytic philosopher has an article coming out soon in the Texas Law Review (no, not mine; I saw an earlier version awhile back) on the ways in which sexual desire (rather than self-identity, which is rather obviously so) might or might not be socially constructed. Your point about us focusing on gay/straight/bi rather than active/passive is a good one; think also of those for whom butchness or femmeness is more crucial than sex organs or chromosomes.

Again, the point is not necessarily what we focus on in ascribing identity, but on what is usually taken to be the proper basis for that, the desire itself. At a certain level of specificity, it's obviously at least socially mediated--it's not like there's a gene for fetishizing medical equipment--but it's interesting to speculate on the plausibility of much stronger versions of the claim.

The 'one drop' rule almost certainly reduces the amount of man-on-man sex, but it might well have an impact on the incidence on male homosexual-coded desire, too. Though one can imagine this going all sorts of ways--perhaps -more- guys fantasize about this precisely because it's so taboo.


Posted by: x. trapnel | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 5:45 PM
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We have informed testimony anecdata from H-L that there are differences.

Fixed that for ya. All I know is what I read in the literature.


Posted by: Hamilton-Lovecraft | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 5:54 PM
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331: straight men will pay to suck on a woman's tits.

Theory: oral fixations of the sort somebody would pay to satisfy demand convex objects.

Stupid theory, but theory.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 5:57 PM
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Or, 338 to 337.


Posted by: Hamilton-Lovecraft | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 6:01 PM
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Now I'm replaying this scenario with him as the boyfriend, Pam Dauber as the girlfriend, and the chimp as the landlord.

Bear was BJ McKay's "best friend." I'll leave the rest to your imagination.

Personally, I think the boyfriend is just a thoughtless/careless drunk. This time. Now if he wants to visit the landlord again sometime, then maybe he should re-think how straight he is.


Posted by: Populuxe | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 8:47 PM
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The thread is not complete without this pearl from McManus.

http://www.unfogged.com/archives/comments_5641.html#426051


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 9:01 PM
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359: "You're not here for the hunting, are you."


Posted by: Hamilton-Lovecraft | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 9:09 PM
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360:Follow that thread further down, please.

Sometimes I don't get gay or straight or bi. Polymorphous perverse, I kinda get.

I haven't participated in this thread. My fun thought was to say that "all blowjobs are gay"

I mean, does your sexual orientation or preference change before or after you find out who is on the other side of a glory hole? Is this a Schrodinger's Cat thing? "I was gay, but then she walked out from behind, so now I'm bi?"


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 9:10 PM
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That 18 month old thread is interesting. stras and I apparently hated each other long before the political season.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 9:18 PM
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"You're not here for the hunting big rig, are you?"


Posted by: Populuxe | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 9:29 PM
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Do they do good housecleaning?

Yes. Or so I hear...


Posted by: Andy R. | Link to this comment | 02- 7-08 11:41 PM
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FWIW, I know of a case where a woman paid to fellate a man.

When I was in H.S., my impecunious jock friend T. showed me a half-ounce bag of weed he had obtained (then worth about $80). It was killer, as we were wont to say in those days.

"Where'd you get that?" I asked him.

"From M. [not so attractive hard-partying heavy girl from neighboring H.S.]", replied T.

"And do you know what I paid for it?" he continued. "I let her give me a blowjob."

Now some of you will think, "High school jock, bragging about sexual exploits, not a credible witness." But I assure you that this guy was as straight-up honest as they come, and I never doubted the truth of this story.


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 02- 8-08 5:44 AM
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