2 is, of course, and module spelling, the correct title.
It's surely a sign of how irrational I am that I think this picture is beautiful.
module spelling is, of course, modulo spelling, correct.
The girl with the sticker looks remarkably like Bitch.
of course!
that's a weird typo. I was writing about modules earlier, but still.
When I was in high school, the local newspaper ran a giant, color, front page close-up of me and another girl going up for a head ball in a soccer game. The soccer ball was nearly cut out of the photo. It was just us, both making unbelievably ghastly faces. Wrinkled chins, half-closed eyes, cheeks distended, unintelligible emotion.
Everyone I knew had it on their fridge for like the next two years. Good times.
9
I am having a hard time imagining it. recreate it and post it.
9: "unbelievably ghastly" s/b "O"
Pictures like these are why, if it comes to it, I'll have some small measure of joy in voting for Hillary. Just be done with it: call me a pussy. That said, I wouldn't go so far as to call this image "beautiful." So yes, B: irrational.
This is the frustrating thing about her as a candidate.
On the Minneapolis campus Tuesday, there was one poor bastard standing on the bridge trying to give away Clinton stickers and getting completely ignored. Obama people were walking around with banners, chanting and generally scaring the hell out of me, and lonely Hillary guy kept up the fight. Hell yes I took a sticker.
13, 14: Seeing (very) young women really enthusiastic about a presidential candidate is "frustrating?" There's nothing beautiful about it?
9 suggests the horrifying thought that the issue in this picture might be (for some) that the girl is making an "ugly" face.
Please tell me I'm wrong about this.
Seeing (very) young white women really enthusiastic about a presidential candidate is "frustrating?
Fixed it. And voting for HRC because she's a woman is a good argument for her. If I knew for sure that Obama wouldn't put a woman on the ticket, I might flip my support. (Probably not, though. I've to deeply dislike parts of the Clinton machine, and don't really want to leave them in place to deepen their roots.)
Just got back from a rally with Bill Clinton. Woo! Helped remind me of why I like him so much. Obama makes inspiring, airy speeches. Bill hands out meat and potatoes, but he does it so well he makes it inspiring.
He and Hillary see the same problems I do, and their judgement of those issues makes a lot of sense to me.
Bill hands out meat and potatoes
Like what?
While Obama has a cult, Clinton has a legion of zombies.
Hopeful? I think so. Inspiring? Perhaps. But not beautiful, no. Because politics is never beautiful. And crowds, although they have an aesthetic, are never beautiful. At least not to me.
18: I don't have a problem with young white women being politically enthusiastic. Do you?
(I realize, of course, that your point is that women of color are less enthusiastic about Clinton. And if this is true, then that's a fair criticism. I just don't know that it is, across the board.)
20: You're misunderstanding. Bill was handing out actual meat and potatoes. Then they had a cookout.
Bill hands out phone numbers to young women.
Like what?
I would imagine fried chicken and french fries; not a lot of other formats are really appropriate for a rally.
17: the issue in this picture might be (for some) that the girl is making an "ugly" face
Nope, I think you're right on. I read the "unfair" part as "she's so young, it's kinda unfair to make fun of her for looking ugly/goofy/tongue-lolling-zombie-ish, but I'm going to anyway."
But maybe he meant "unfair" as "this isn't necessarily a representative Hillary supporter, but I'm using it as such, thus being unfair to Hillary by implying all her supporters are ugly/goofy/tongue-lolling-, etc."
Either way, if this girl looked pretty and composed, but with a Hillary sticker on her forehead, I doubt he would have posted it.
I'm not sure it's so much the "ugly" face as the combination of tongue and sticker. "Dorky" is the word that came to mind.
That said, dorky for politics? Not a problem by me. Go, Excited Youngsters!
Bill hands out meat and potatoes pardons.
Seeing (very) young women really enthusiastic about a presidential candidate is "frustrating?"
No, that's not what I meant at all. What is frustrating is the sexism in the discourse. I would love to be able to get behind her if for no other reason that to tell all the people presenting it that way to fuck off. But I can't. I've resigned myself to a center-right nominee, or however you want to put it. She is the representative of much of what I see as being broken in the D party, though. So even though the positional differences aren't huge in a lot of areas, and I can't see either of them making much progress (for a number of reasons), I think it's important to reject the DLC and get some movement internal to the D's.
So that's frustrating. Almost any other female candidate would be better, as I see it, as a first serious run at a female president. I don't know how much I'd shift on that if Obama didn't also represent a positive change that way.
I don't have a problem with young white women being politically enthusiastic. Do you?
Given that white women break, as a rule, 10% for the Republicans, I'd prefer that they not be politically enthusiastic. But young white Dem women? Fine with me. I'm pretty good with Dems of any race, gender, or age.
It wasn't particularly about women of color (or whatever the term is); it just struck me that it was the sort of picture that we make fun of Republican conventions for. It struck me as funny.
And crowds, although they have an aesthetic, are never beautiful.
Bill hands out meat and potatoes pardons bullshit. He's good at it though, true enough.
But maybe he meant "unfair" as "this isn't necessarily a representative Hillary supporter, but I'm using it as such, thus being unfair to Hillary by implying all her supporters are ugly/goofy/tongue-lolling-, etc."
Either way, if this girl looked pretty and composed, but with a Hillary sticker on her forehead, I doubt he would have posted it.
It's not just about that girl. When combined with her, the mass of less-defined people with outstretched arms pressing against a barrier does resemble a scene from Land of the Dead.
I can think of several ways in which this would be unfair. But generally I think that in the general election a candidate HRC who receives relentless female-specific cheap shots will really create a lot of sympathy among female voters and the men who love them. This is a good thing.
wrenae is right, with both readings of "unfair." Just having a bit of fun in the wake of the other thread.
I would imagine fried chicken
You know, I never think of chicken as the "meat" in the "meat and potatoes." But I can't figure out why.
I'm not sure it's so much the "ugly" face as the combination of tongue and sticker.
Seriously. Teenaged girls are almost always pretty without even trying; this one is no exception. It's still a funny picture.
22: Oh come on, this is just gorgeous. (And if you look in the corner, you can see foolishmortal's head photoshopped in!)
39: even though it's the meat most commonly found with potatoes in fast-food settings.
Mashed potatoes at least.
Just having a bit of fun in the wake of the other thread.
What, you're going to photoshop your face onto hers and hang it on your ego wall?
20. I was looking for a copy of the speech, but it turns out it was ad-lib'd. I missed part of it, but he talked about the problems with interest rates, particularly for college loans; the problems of health care and how our system makes it so expensive, and what needs to be done to fix it and make it affordable; the problem of our image in the world b/c of Iraq and pulling out of Kyoto and the nuclear non-proliferation treaty. His expression of these issues really resonated with me. I've always had that reaction to him though. It's always, "this guy knows what he's talking about, he thinks the same way I do, and he knows what needs done."
41- I think foolishmortal should photoshop uglyface's head onto his body.
In light of 37, I think this is a really crappy post. Especially if you don't want me to accuse you, in this case, of sexist Hillary-bashing for joking about politically active feminists not being pretty.
"this guy knows what he's talking about, he thinks the same way I do, and he knows what needs done."
Trying to make this reconcile with his presidency makes my head hurt.
I've been pretty patient today, actually, Ogged. My disliking the "joke" doesn't amount to scolding anyone.
34: God, music is really something else, innit?
he thinks the same way I do"
He's great it, generally, and (IIRC) you're his wheelhouse constituency: Southern white males with some conservative tendencies. No one doubts that he has retail skills.
In ogged's defense, I bet he would have posted it even if it was an Obama sticker. It's more zombie-grrrl bashing than anything else, in the sense we're supposed to laugh at her.
As a humorless feminist, I don't find it funny, but it's really because I identify too much with zombie-grrrl (there are some goofy pics of me out there I'd rather not see mocked online). I'm sure she wasn't thinking that the moment she tried to get that corn chip salt off her lip is the one that would be captured for posterity.
55: Ah, that makes more sense. Especially if s/some/many/.
I'm sure she wasn't thinking that the moment she tried to get that corn chip salt off her lip is the one that would be captured for posterity.
Isn't it mostly always the way?
37, 48: Huh, crap. I didn't think this was about the girl looking dorky. I thought it was a joke about the "Obama Youth Cult" that's been popping up recently. In that light, this is a pretty funny and vaguely unfair post, but not really sexist.
Dammit, ogged.
I think 56 is overlooking the fact that the specific content of the photo is "here are young women who are excited about electing a woman president." The picture wouldn't be as "funny" if that weren't the case, or if (as you said) the girl were looking composed and "pretty".
She's not licking salt off her lip. She's being unselfconscious, for one fucking second, in a situation that has a lot of importance for feminists. The joke basically sends the message that women should never be unselfconscious about looking "funny", and that things that are seriously meaningful to women *as* women are less important than how they, the women, look. It ought to be offensive to everyone.
41 is chilling. And Josh is a bad person for posting it. Seriously, that's always where my mind goes when I see shots of crowds at political rallies. I'm a damaged freak, I know.
60 is right, hence 14 which you read I think opposite to the sense I meant it.
Granted I both didn't make it clear, and had goofed around with the title already.
But I wasn't serious about Josh being a bad person, even if my coment reads that way.
Here, Ari. Not all crowds at political rallies are evil. Sometimes people are genuinely working together for a better world.
What with Black History Month, several times recently I've heard the Harriet Tubman quote, where someone said how great it was that she freed hundreds of slaves, and she says that she could have freed thousands if she could have convinced them they were enslaved. It keeps running through my head with respect to the women's movement, and these women who diminish themselves to their looks and don't have the self-esteem to see the cost.
I agree with B. for a change. Ogged's baiting the women who comment again. What are the odds?
60- I have to admit that the Hillary sticker made me laugh harder than I otherwise would have. But so would have an Obama sticker. It's just funny when someone has something stupid on their forehead while sticking their tongue out the side of their mouth.
And Josh is a bad person for posting it.
Validation!
and (IIRC) you're his wheelhouse constituency: Southern white males with some conservative tendencies.
And I'm from Little Rock. I was raised pro-Clinton.
That doesn't change the fact that he's a great speaker.
In ogged's defense, I bet he would have posted it even if it was an Obama sticker.
I don't believe that.
66 does not apply to this photo. I'm just free-associating.
I'm a damaged freakhistorian
Fixed that for you.
I don't know how many times I have to explain this to you people, but here we go: it is a truth universally acknowledged that people that look like zombies = teh funny, regardless of context.
Not all crowds at political rallies are evil.
Yeah, we had an evil screener today, and it wasn't even needed! Bill's psychic power prevents SPs from coming too near.
I am soooooo out of touch with the ogged aesthetic. First foolishmortal's project, now this.
I see a picture of pretty young Democratic girls. How nice ! I had friends like this back in the day, and I have nieces like this today. Lovely.
But to ogged they are figures of fun. Is this because the aren't wearing enough makeup?
68 gets it exactly right. It would be just as funny if it was a guy.
in a situation that has a lot of importance for feminists
Student supporters reach for free campaign t-shirts before Democratic presidential hopeful Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton, D-N.Y., arrives at a rally
But to ogged they are figures of fun. Is this because the aren't wearing enough makeup?
I'm pretty sure that's entirely due to the zombie aspect.
53- No, Apo's all about the braces.
75- Huh?
This may ruin B's swooning idealism, but perhaps we should read the caption:
Student supporters reach for free campaign t-shirts before Democratic presidential hopeful Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton, D-N.Y., arrives at a rally at Washington Lee High School in Arlington, Va.
It's not about feminism, it's about the swag.
79: Because they're excited about her candidacy. How unimportant.
it is a truth universally acknowledged that people that look like zombies = teh funny, regardless of context.
I see. So the photos of people massed outside the dome in New Orleans were a laugh riot.
Well, damn. Given that we live in a world entirely without context, Ogged can't have been meaning to bait anyone. Sorry for the error.
i don't see what's wrong with this picture, how one can view this picture as ugly, when their faces are this beautiful and innocent and sincere
the gestures also do not look like the nazi hail signs, may be the top one only, but i'm sure the hand was in motion, not held still
strange that people always try to intepret something in twisted wrong way, not just accept things as it is, simple and clean, and let it go
what i recalled, the other day we with my japanese coworker were talking about your primaries and his objective opinion was that no matter who is the democratic presidential nominee, McCain is going to win, coz America is not ready for a woman or a black prez, when my objective opinion was no matter who is the dem's nominee, the dems are going to win because two terms of Bush presidency is may be enough for all
The joke basically sends the message that women should never be unselfconscious about looking "funny", and that things that are seriously meaningful to women *as* women are less important than how they, the women, look. It ought to be offensive to everyone.
Christ, B. Anybody, but anybody, looks funny with a big round sticker on their head and their tongue out.
Can I argue cross-bench and say that ogged's post was neither particularly funny nor particularly offensive?
(Might be good for an old-fashioned 1,000-comment gender thread, though.)
80: Right. If that young lady had more makeup, she wouldn't look like such a zombie.
It would be just as funny if it was a guy.
You know what's really funny is how this always gets said in arguments like this, and how these arguments always seem to be in cases where it just so happens that it isn't a guy.
I still maintain that this picture would be less funny if it were a group of young men and one had a McCain or Obama sticker on his head. And that it wouldn't have been posted with a headline like "this might be unfair" right when we were in the middle of a discussion about Clinton's candidacy.
Just sayin'.
LB, in the middle of a discussion about supporting Hillary Clinton, I post a picture, that I call unfair, of some of her supporters looking like zombies. Of course it's baiting, or teasing, or needling, or whatever. I happened to come across it just as that thread was happening, and it was a spot of good luck. If someone had found one of Obama supporters looking like this and posted it, I would have had to laugh.
85: read, you haven't watched enough zombie movies.
Outside of context, it's funny because of that. Inside of context, it's more problematic.
But 87 is true
88: That probably depends on the make up , don't you think?
. Anybody, but anybody, looks funny with a big round sticker on their head and their tongue out.
Only because teh Patriarchy has associated tongues and stickers on the head with the Feminine. It wasn't so long ago that women had to cover their heads, and couldn't have meaningfully worn stickers on their heads.
90: If you had come across a similar picture of Obama supporters, would you have done the same post?
Of course not, Obama is my guy. You find your own unfair Obama slams.
I still maintain that this picture would be less funny if it were a group of young men and one had a McCain
actually, it would by 5x more hilarious that was a McCain sticker. and 10x more hilarious if the guys looked fratty or dorky in suits.
Omg, 93 is so irritating. It's not a feminist issue! The picture is funny regardless! But somehow it's a reason to make fun of feminists!
90: Right. You're purposefully needling Clinton supporters in the middle of an argument about her candidacy and what it means for women by putting up a picture of young women supporting her making ugly faces.
So you're baiting. Eh, if that's what gets you through the day, but being surprised (not you, everyone who's being "how could you take that picture as offensive") seems screwy.
these arguments always seem to be in cases where it just so happens that it isn't a guy
I could go through my archives and link to all the funny pictures of Giuliani, Kerry, Edwards, Bush, and hundreds of guys whose names nobody would recognize. I agree that these arguments happen when it's not a picture of a guy, but I think we differ as to the reason for that.
95: Well then. Do you mind explaining to all your defenders in this thread that the joke is, indeed, just a teensy bit gendered? Because they don't seem to be able to see it, and I'm pretty darn certain that you do.
65: No, I know that. But, the psychology and aesthetics of crowds being what they are, it still ain't beautiful.
Shorter Ogged: YHBT. HAND.
Nicely done -- no one sets up a "let's you and her fight" with quite the same aplomb.
young women supporting her making ugly faces
making ugly faces looking like zombies. Come on, big difference.
Further to 102: in *light* of Ogged's admission that he wouldn't have done it if it were an Obama picture, do you think maybe you might consider the possibility that the feminazis on this blog aren't irrational for (1) suspecting that that was the case and (2) being unwilling to accept the argument that "it would be just as funny if it were a guy!"
It wouldn't have been as funny to Ogged. He knew what he was doing. You guys might not have heard the dog whistle, but the women did.
I see. So the photos of people massed outside the dome in New Orleans were a laugh riot.
Bad Analogy. I think you know that innocent zombiness is of course funny whereas Zombieness where people areactually starving, dying and homeless is less so.
LB, I was needling, but I thought it was good for a chuckle, like the what women want post a while back. It's not actually anyone's considered opinion on the either topic. I'm still almost always surprised when people take offense. The triumph of hope over experience.
95. whatever happened to comity, motherfucker?
104, see 37. Which was responding to and agreeing with 29, which said that the suspicion that the joke was that she was making an "ugly face" was "right on."
Or was that not what you meant?
If I think this is bait, does this mean I have to stop laughing at the picture from the Republican convention of the conservative Asian law prof wearing a very, uh, perky elephant hat?
Damn, you're allowed to call the blog poster a motherfucker? All this time....
B, the last sentence of 97, really? You think there's nothing in this thread other than the picture to prompt SCMT to write 93?
I still maintain that this picture would be less funny if it were a group of young men and one had a McCain or Obama sticker on his head.
My gut reaction to this picture was to find it sweet. A similar picture with male McCain supporters would strike me as unpleasant. Even menacing.
I'm not sure what that means. I'm just saying ...
111. being equal and fair should only go so far. It's OK to laugh at Republicans.
108: Okay, look. I can take a joke. So can LB. But when there's an argument about feminism, in which some people--not everyone, but some--seem to be implying that it's not a terribly important issue, "jokes" like that seem very much to be taking sides.
You can see that that's the case *not only* because the women are offended by the picture, but *also* because the men feel it's very, very important to *not see* that part of the joke is feminist-baiting.
I don't mind being baited. I mind being played for a fool.
Ah well, I'll never understand the women on this blog. I volunteer apostropher, that bastard, to defend the post.
Ogged puts up a dog whistle post. Bitch bitches. Everyone else argues. Repeat. Why the shock and opprobrium? This is what ogged does.
P.S. They still look like zombies.
111: Yes, you can laugh at it, unless it's posted in the context of a thread in which people are (say) denying that Asians face discrimination. (Which is not the argument that was going on about Clinton, I realize. I'm making up an example, is all.)
113: I think that there is something in this thread that is *not* being noticed, and that is that Ogged admits he was deliberately feminist-baiting, and yet a lot of people seem to think that the feminists reacting as if they'd been baited are Completely Unreasonable and Just Making Things Up! Which was pretty clearly the subtext of 93.
Do you mind explaining to all your defenders in this thread
I'm not defending Ogged. I'm saying the picture is funny quite apart from any issues about feminism or Clinton's candidacy.
I'm still almost always surprised when people take offense.
ogged, are you seriously pretending you didn't think this would be bait? Do you read your own blog? Those who ignore history are doomed to 1000-comment threads.
You know what's really funny is how this always gets said in arguments like this, and how these arguments always seem to be in cases where it just so happens that it isn't a guy.
Wouldn't it be logically impossible for it to be said in another circumstance? Is there a third sex I've never noticed?
---
109 posted before I read 90. I guess I have to retract it.
Ogged admits he was deliberately feminist-baiting
No, I admitted that I was needling Hillary's supporters.
Look, the thread was about Clinton's candidacy, but also about the supposedly cultish nature of Obama's supporters. This picture also plays off that. Not everything is about ever and always feminism.
are you seriously pretending you didn't think this would be bait?
I expected "Very funny, ogged, you schmuck." Not accusations that I was oppressing women and devaluing feminism and all the rest of it. I mean, seriously.
No, I admitted that I was needling Hillary's supporters.
There is trolling as a hobby and trolling as a profession.
This, my friends, is trolling as art !!
124: Huh. Because to my knowledge, there's not a single person in this thread who is a Clinton supporter.
The post would have been funnier with a title like "Obama's Cult Has Competition."
"We Want a Mandate.. for BRAINZ!"
ever and always about, that is.
125: I wrote that before I read your delegation of duty to me.
1. It's gendered because the picture is gendered. The point of the picture is a bunch of excited young women responding to HRC.
2. It's unfair because of the shot selection. There are almost certainly pictures before and after this one in the roll which are just straight adulation pictures. You'd have to go out of your way to find this picture. It would be like posting a picture of an Obama crowd that was supposed to show his rapt audience, but instead focused on someone in the front row who was clearly asleep on his feet.
3. It's baiting because ogged knows #1 and #2 and posted the picture in light of the ongoing thread, knowing that trolling like this would get a response.
None of which particularly requires:
The joke basically sends the message that women should never be unselfconscious about looking "funny", and that things that are seriously meaningful to women *as* women are less important than how they, the women, look
It's a cheap shot, and everyone recognizes it as such. It's not changing anyone's mind on anything.
You can't argue with B when she's in moods where she says things like "men only argue "it'd be funny if it was a man!" in situations where it's not a man! How convenient for them!"
Ogged puts up a dog whistle post. Bitch bitches. Everyone else argues. Repeat.
(sigh) I love Unfogged.
126: The thread *started off* as being about the Obama/zombie thing. At the time that Ogged posted the picure, it was about Clinton. Ogged himself admits that he posted it because of the Clinton argument, not the Obama one. If, as Cala suggests in 130, Ogged had titled it differently, your claim that the picture also plays off the Obama thing would have more weight. As is--and in light of Ogged's statement about his motivations, for heaven's sake--the whole "not everything is always about feminism" basically makes the objection to *this* picture into a global complaint, implying that feminists basically complain about "everything."
the picture is a bunch of excited young women responding to HRC t-shirts
The joke basically sends the message that women should never be unselfconscious about looking "funny", and that things that are seriously meaningful to women *as* women are less important than how they, the women, look
There are lots of pictures of, say, male politicians looking stupid in photos. Have you ever said the same about them? that it's sending some kind of "message"? If not, why not? is that reverse-sexism? I can't tell.
Ah well, I'll never understand the women on this blog.
Fixed that for you.
You can't argue with B
Right. Nicely done, Ogged. Thanks a whole bunch.
127: All I can think is "Nice boy. Not too bright, though."
implying that feminists basically complain about "everything."
I'm just going to let that one float in the air for a bit.
140: Ogged didn't say that. And if I haven't been triple-pwned in the time it took me to type this second sentence, I'll be stunned.
There are lots of pictures of, say, male politicians looking stupid in photos. Have you ever said the same about them? that it's sending some kind of "message"? If not, why not? is that reverse-sexism? I can't tell.
It is different when a man is ridiculed for looking stupid than when a woman is ridiculed for looking stupid. Men are not constantly being reduced to their looks.
I feel my temperature rising, out of proportion to the mild sin of the original post.
Yeah, what makes the baiting really annoying is all the denial that part of the intentional point is to snipe at feminists/women generally. If that's out in the open, it's a minor jab, no serious blood drawn. The arguments about how paranoid it is to perceive it as a jab are maddening.
Ogged didn't say that
No, Michael did, and frankly, 133 and 138 both pissed me off.
I don't get that, LB. It's a jab, but not about feminists/women generally. Why would it be? I don't see Hillary's candidacy as a feminist enterprise and I don't see her supporters as necessarily feminist. Haven't we been arguing for weeks that there are lots of ways to look at/critique Hillary that have nothing to do with her gender and/or feminism?
there are lots of ways to look at/critique Hillary that have nothing to do with her gender and/or feminism?
Only when it's convenient, Ogged.
Also, it's not a very good zombie picture because one zombie on its own is not fearsome, as everyone who knows zombies will agree. It doesn't really suggest zombies without a hint or zombies on the braiiiinn(z.)
Instead all we have is a cute girl with braces making an ugly face, which really looks like 'haha Hillary supporters are ugly.' The first thing it reminded me of was some asshole's photoessay comparing the hotness of women at the right to life march with the ugly (obviously lesbian) women at the pro-choice rally. Pretty lame.
I don't see Hillary's candidacy as a feminist enterprise
Lots of feminists do, as we were just discussing.
lots of ways to look at/critique Hillary that have nothing to do with her gender and/or feminism?
A picture of her supporters, showing only women, looking unattractive is not one of those ways.
143: No, he set up a situation where someone else would. Because of what 146 and 147 are pointing out, which is that there's something that happens between B objecting to the picture and B being "someone you can't argue with."
And that something is all the protests about how B's objections are completely unreasonable because feminists will complain about "everything" even when it's got Nothing to Do With Gender!! Which Ogged knows full well is not what's happening here. But he's not going to come out and say that; he's going to let everyone, as always, decide that The Feminists are the problem.
Christ almighty, people. The girl doesn't look ugly or unattractive. She looks silly, and not because of her intrinsic attractiveness but because her tongue is out and she has a gigantic sticker on her head.
Also, it's not a very good zombie picture because one zombie on its own is not fearsome
One zombie on its own packed in with a bunch of other non zombie people is indeed fearsome since you will soon have more then just the one in that situation.
It is different when a man is ridiculed for looking stupid than when a woman is ridiculed for looking stupid. Men are not constantly being reduced to their looks.
I think this confuses two different senses of "looks." The woman appears to be pretty; she looks silly. This is Brad Pitt with his finger up his nose. Less, actually.
It's a jab, but not about feminists/women generally. Why would it be? I don't see Hillary's candidacy as a feminist enterprise and I don't see her supporters as necessarily feminist.
That I find hard to believe, given the nature of the picture. You can't post a picture from the Nuremberg rally and say you don't think the implicit comment references anything about Germany.
153: Again, it's a great game of 'Let's you and her fight'. You can say lots of things about Ogged, but not that he's not really good at what he does.
not about feminists/women generally. Why would it be?
They're all female. Not hard to spot.
Also, 114 and 154 seconded.
It is different when a man is ridiculed for looking stupid than when a woman is ridiculed for looking stupid.
What does it mean when it's one of each?
I don't even think the girl looks funny. Just candid. Much like someone at a rock show. Not terribly zombieish.
This is my agree-with-B day.
154: I agree that she doesn't look ugly. We're supposed to be laughing at how she looks, though.
You seem to be unaware that the argument that what women look like is more important than what they think--*especially* if said women are being politically active--is a very, very well established method of dismissing women's political activity. More than just the standard "our opponents look like fools" argument.
You also seem to be unaware that by repeatedly saying "it's meaningless," you're very much encouraging people to try, again and again, to explain it to you. And that by doing so you're creating the very phenomenon that you're ridiculing.
I swear I'm not abandoning my feminist partners in this next statement.
This post is not that bad. I think I (we?) blow off steam by holding up Unfogged to an ideal state of gender equality because I(we?) absorb so much shit, day in and day out, which is stacked too deep to make a dent in. So many shrugs and dismissing a woman as "Eh, she's fat" or girls in office hours acting over-the-top like stereotypical sorority girls. I can't unshovel my way out of it.
So it is inconsistent for me to get upset over this one post, and then bite my tongue 9 out of 10 times in real life. Which is why I think this serves a bit for me to blow off steam and anger.
I SWEAR I DIDN'T JUST SELL OUT. I'm just reflecting.
It's my wily Persian campaign to undermine the feminists. Everyone knows that teenaged girls grasping for t-shirts is the universal signifier for feminism.
It's not like I wasn't enjoying my hiatus. But now I don't want to cede the blog to the crazies.
The giant sticker on her head is cool with me too. She's goofing around. More people should goof around.
Especially you motherfuckers. Goof around more, or I'll ream your asses.
It is different when a man is ridiculed for looking stupid than when a woman is ridiculed for looking stupid.
I'd like to somehow maintain my right to ridicule people of either gender for looking stupid.
But I thought the post referred to the youth/zombie/Obama thing, so what do I know.
156 gets it right. I think it's a stretch to plead ignorance that Clinton's candidacy could have feminist implications.
Look, there's a history of deriding feminists as only feminist because they're too ugly to get a man, and this picture certainly would fit into that. It isn't really a stretch to get there given 29, if one missed the zombie context.
I don't mind the jab, but acting like B is overreacting for remarking that it's a jab is the second most annoying thing on this blog.
Cala, the title of the post is "This Might Be Unfair." What people are denying is that it's some clever effort to undermine women/attack feminism/do other horrible things.
162: No, I agree that the post isn't that bad. I'm not reacting to the post. I'm reacting to the denial.
In real life, I blow stuff off too. But I'm pretty sure that if I were hanging around with real-life friends and said "omg that's so sexist!" and then said friends commenced to make fun of me and talk about how unreasonable I was being, I'd get just as pissed off.
Because you know, it's okay to disagree with me, but it's not okay to be assholes to me. Especially not if you're going to deny that you're doing it, and turn around and blame me for how disagreeable and unpleasant I'm being to you without any acknowledgment that you're being just as disagreeable and unpleasant to me.
You seem to be unaware that the argument that what women look like is more important than what they think--*especially* if said women are being politically active--is a very, very well established method of dismissing women's political activity.
Sigh. Do you know what this picture tells me about what this young woman thinks? Nothing, except that she apparently likes Hillary Clinton and would vote for her were she 18. I can't dismiss what she's thinking because neither you nor I have the first idea what it is. I can, however, look at a picture of her and decide that it's a funny picture. Which is in no way disenfranchising her. You've read my blog; I post pictures and stories of people looking and behaving in silly fashion constantly. It really isn't a commando strike in the gender wars.
Look, there's a history of deriding feminists as only feminist because they're too ugly to get a man, and this picture certainly would fit into that
I disagree that the picture would fit. There almost certainly are ugly HRC supporters (as there are ugly Obama supporters), but that's not who the picture shows. It's a real stretch to say that woman is ugly.
But ogged meant it as bait. (Which I think he has copped to.)
162: Again, you're not selling out by agreeing that it's no big deal. The big, maddening deal is the claim that it's got nothing at all to do with feminism or gender.
On the other hand, may I change the subject by saying that I got my job offer! Everyone I could give notice to has left for the evening, so I'll do that Monday.
More free associating:
This is a video of a really cute, androgynous teenage girl being a total goofball. It's really very sweet.
Yet it made me really sad, because in the course of being a total goofball, she naturally identifies with the main character of the song, who is male, and idealizes a totally stock female. Which is quite a common mindfuck when you're a silly, goofball teenage girl.
Hurray!! Spend the weekend drunk out of your mind, LB.
I'm not going to deny that it isn't clever.
acting like B is overreacting for remarking that it's a jab is the second most annoying thing on this blog.
Thank you.
What people are denying is that it's some clever effort to undermine women/attack feminism/do other horrible things. What people are denying is that it has *anything to do with gender at all*.
Also, there's the whole "I won't cede the blog to the crazies" thing. Which I know is supposed to be a joke, but it's also a very low blow.
Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay!
I got my job offer!
Wooooo!!!!!! Congrats, LB!!!
Which I know is supposed to be a joke, but it's also a very low blow.
Yeah. Ogged? That sort of thing is major-league shitty in a way that makes me think less of you.
On the other hand, may I change the subject by saying that I got my job offer! Everyone I could give notice to has left for the evening, so I'll do that Monday.
So great, LB. Really, really pleased for you. Gawd, that's awesome.
history of deriding feminists as only feminist because they're too ugly to get a man
And if there were even one ugly person in that photo, then that history might be relevant.
179: (Um, and thanks for the congratulations. Sorry about continuing the bad feeling if it's all been dropped.)
171.1: The post seems pretty much to be explicitly intended to needle not feminists in general but four or five specific ones. I would say that it isn't commentary on gender issues, but commentary on a "personal" relationship. I mean. It was Ogged. Of course he's baiting.
171.2: sweet!
B is right. Everyone claiming there's nothing gender-related about this is wrong.
And yet, the picture is still funny.
Sorry about continuing the bad feeling if it's all been dropped.
We can get back to bad feelings later! Woot!
I'm reacting to the denial.
Totally with you there.
Hurrah job offer! Congratulations, LB. You totally deserve to be happy.
Hey Congrats, Elbie!!! That's so great.
Everyone claiming there's nothing gender-related about this is wrong.
I'm not sure anyone is saying that. Maybe ogged.
Also: what an awesome way for a weekend to begin for the Breaths.
A) 168: I don't think anyone's being an asshole to you here. I've seen people be assholes to you, and this ain't it.
B)171: It is a measure of my dorkiness how pleased I am by the career advancement of a person whom I have never met. Congratulations. At the moment, I cannot think of anyone who deserves it more.
194: Um, hello? Read Apo's comments.
Oh wait. Katherine. She deserves it.
196.1: Fair enough. People are frustrating me, but they aren't being assholes to me. Except Ogged.
But he's off the hook for the moment because we're all happy for LB.
199: Oh, there are a million people, including Katherine, who deserve good things happening to them more than I do, but probably not who had been fretting about particular good things they wanted in front of you.
Btw, if I were a feminist, I'd consider it a monumental achievement for this thread to reach 200 comments including the word "bait" without an associated "jail". (Just in case you all don't hate me enough today)
you know, i just searched the thread, and i find it suprising that it hasn't been mentioned that the sticker in the photo is obviously photoshopped.
also, Congtraz LB! (um..what job did you get?)
1. mrh is right
2. mrh is right
3. woo, LB
4. this thread is a little amazing
In the interest of comity, I'm willing to concede that I can see why people took this to be about feminism or women, but for whatever authorial intent is worth, I wasn't making a statement or even a joke, about either. It was just about Hillary's silly-looking zombie supporters. I can't help it if all I see is humanity.
Yay, comity! Otherwise you were in for another reduce-Unfogged-to-a-thirteen-line play comment. O the asses of the actresses!
Two thoughts: Didn't we just discuss a few months ago the truism that for anyone who is being photographed candidly, there's a strong possibility that they will be caught mid-expression in a silly face?
Also, I hope nobody who's defending the HRC campaign and/or the girl in the photo has ever objected to participating in a peace march because they might be seen in the company of hippies with puppets.
On another note, given what I think we know about ogged's cultural referents, I strongly deny that he had a zombie reference in mind. I'm not sure anyone has taken the other side of this. Cala might have implied it in 166. This is orthogonal to whether his posting of it was wrong or unfunny, which I don't think it was.
205: Yay, comity, and not being regarded as insanely paranoid.
210: I was wondering about that. I could kinda see the zombie thing once someone pointed it out, but it didn't seem like an obvious enough call to think the post was meant as a zombie reference rather than just a goofy picture.
Um, hello? Read Apo's comments.
I haven't said there's nothing gender-related about the picture. It's several young women at a rally for a female candidate. I said the post wasn't about gender/feminism, which, y'know, 205.
The zombie thing is clear enough, I think. It was the first thing I thought of anyway. I didn't think of any of this gender stuff until this thread was well underway: zombies don't mate, and thus lack gender.
205: Independent of the appropriateness for the posting the picture here, this serves as a good object lesson in the power of image and the deviltry that any media outlet can easily engage in by being biased in their use of imagery. ("This is how I raise awareness of biased media imagery!" roared ogged the pedant.)
FWIW, I made the zombie comment because of all the hands reaching out. Not the face.
213: Okay, I believe that the stuff you were saying was intended to defend the *post* from being about gender.
However. I was responding to a rather vague "this," not "the post." And Ogged has said that *he* at least can see why people thought the post was about gender.
In any case, I read your comments as saying, in effect, that it was really basically crazy and irrational of me, LB, and Heebie to see the idea that the picture was funny as having *something* to do with making fun of feminism. It's one thing to disagree about the post's intent. It's another to imply that it is completely ridiculous for us to view it differently than you do. And you certainly *were* denying that the joke had anything to do with gender, which is what I was talking about when I said "see apo's comments."
You guys might not have heard the dog whistle, but the women did.
In 205, "I can't help it if all I see is humanity." is bullshit. Ogged saw more than clearly enough to pick an image that he knew would annoy some of the regular posters. If he actually meant the posture, he'd have been stuck grabbing images at random until one clicked. As others have already said, it's the blatantly dishonest rationales that make the whole thing so pathetic.
In happier news:
LizardBreath, congrats!
"I can't help it if all I see is humanity." is bullshit.
Most jokes are.
I didn't hear a dog whistle. I thought it was teasing along the zombie lines.
Really, I'm not much for telling decently self-aware people what their motives are.
Really, I'm not much for telling decently self-aware people what their motives are.
"Prancing around in tight yoga pants is not a substitute for a lesson plan."
Heh. (I'm joking, Megan, really. There's just a difference of opinion in this thread about how much people should, in fact, be aware of, the extent to which there may be supressed motives, the role played by plausible deniability, and so on. I don't take a side in this particular dispute.)
That's awesome, parsimon. (Sincerely - and I'm grinning.)
Oh, good. I was about to ban myself.
I'm joking, Megan, really.
Sincerely - and I'm grinning.
None of this would be necessary were it not for the emoticon ban.
Does she contradict herself? Very well then; Megan contains multitudes.
I completely agree with Apostropher.
I saw this post and laughed because I assumed it was a response to the "Obama cult" post.
On a barely-related note: I know it's more fun to scold Ogged for mocking zombies, but here's Clinton and Obama on cluster bombs.
Wow. This might actually be the dumbest Unfogged thread of all time, in not so good a way. The post is funny, though.
231: Obama's just trying to mesmerize you with sensible policy stands, stras. Don't be fooled!
This might actually be the dumbest Unfogged thread of all time
I hope that's not a challenge, DS.
231- Analysts say Clinton did not want to risk appearing "soft on terror," as it would have harmed her electibility.
So tiring. Maybe some day we'll hear 'Analysts say Clinton is militaristic on foreign policy.' If it quacks like a duck....
I thought it was funny. A lot funnier than McCain's inauguration is going to be.
