Re: Involved Citizens

1

so let me see if I get it: he was right in the first anecdote and upset because the woman essentially called him a liar, and we don't know if he was right in the second anecdote but he admits to lying somewhere in the anecdote.

So is he a law professor?


Posted by: Bryan | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 11:25 AM
horizontal rule
2

Obviously, we must refuse to seat all the caucus delegates at the convention. The intimidation and fraud have been obvious. I really have no idea which candidate this would benefit.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 11:33 AM
horizontal rule
3

Caucuses are a total mess. I've only caucused once, but I know all I need to know.

When I went last week turnout was almost twice what was expected and maybe three times greater than 2 years ago, so the disorganization was partly explainable.

However, what this also means is that in a normal year caucuses are dominated by a tiny handful of people. This year, 21 Democrats represented a town of 1500 which is half Democratic -- I'd guess 300-500 registered Democrats. In the average year maybe 7 people would represent 300+ people.

The Minnesota DFL seems to want a return to a primary system, but the Republicans are opposed. The only resolution our precinct voted out was "Return to the primary system!"


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 11:36 AM
horizontal rule
4

Tonks went with her family to caucus in Kansas, and it sounds like it was a total disaster, due to the unexpectedly high number of participants. How is it democratic if you can't even fit the caucusers in the building?


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 11:37 AM
horizontal rule
5

I should mention that at 61 I was the second youngest of the 9 caucusers I recognized.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 11:37 AM
horizontal rule
6

The Minnesota DFL seems to want a return to a primary system, but the Republicans are opposed.

Why can't this be done on a party basis?


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 11:40 AM
horizontal rule
7

I have no idea. Apparently the legislature has a hand in it.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 11:43 AM
horizontal rule
8

The old-school NYC voting machines are fun, but the voting is over so fast! While a causus seems like the worst possible way to ensure representation, it does sound like fun.

At last the Dodo said "Everybody has won, and all must have prizes."


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 12:04 PM
horizontal rule
9

Surely you jest. It's most comparable to registering for college.

One good thing is that you do meet people face to face. We'll be able to form a campaign committee here in town, at least.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 12:36 PM
horizontal rule
10

But Hillary did go to Yale Law School. So sad.


Posted by: md 20/400 | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 12:39 PM
horizontal rule
11

caucuses are great in the fantasy "we all have so much time to do democracy PROPERLY!" world, but in the currently existing USA? not so great.....


Posted by: lurker | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 12:41 PM
horizontal rule
12

The end of the linked article:

What's with all these middle-aged white women anyway? Of course, if I knew the answer to that question, I'd probably still be married.

What's this, a Rodney Dangerfield impression?


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 12:44 PM
horizontal rule
13

You're dating yourself, parsimon.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 12:52 PM
horizontal rule
14

we wankers all date ourselves.

So was this hiatus devoted to resetting the Tivo?


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 12:58 PM
horizontal rule
15

No, there was some high-minded stuff that I utterly failed to do. I might hiate again. I might quit entirely. Maybe I'll start a new blog, but without comments. World's my oyster.

Watching some Rodney Dangerfield on YouTube:

When you make love to the right woman, it's beautiful. The last time I made love to my wife, it was ridiculous. Nothing was happening. I looked at her, I said, "What's the matter? Can't you think of anyone either?"


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 1:03 PM
horizontal rule
16

I just called the Elections Board yesterday to find out if judges are needed for our "nominating event" in May and was pleased to hear the judge coordinator refer to it as "the partisan primary" complete with early voting and the like. Gods but I would never want to try to ride herd on anything more complicated than a primary.


Posted by: Robust McManlyPants | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 1:05 PM
horizontal rule
17

don't quit now, i'm just finding my rhythm here.


Posted by: Sybil Vane | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 1:07 PM
horizontal rule
18

Well, in that case.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 1:11 PM
horizontal rule
19

The only times I've been to a caucus, it was well organized and fun. People should really have been able to figure out turnout this time around.

My cousin in Minneapolis went to two -- hers, and then she had to go drive her mother. Both packed. Don't you Minnesotans know how many voters there are? Who do you think you are, Ohio?


Posted by: Napi | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 1:13 PM
horizontal rule
20

It's compelling, I know.


Posted by: Sybil Vane | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 1:21 PM
horizontal rule
21

13: What?


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 1:24 PM
horizontal rule
22

Rodney Dangerfield is old. And so therefore are you. Or so goes the claim.


Posted by: Sybil Vane | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 1:26 PM
horizontal rule
23

a few cheap shots at Hillary notwithstanding

How is that a even a cheap shot at Hillary? Ok, a single Hillary supporter was rude. If you're surprised that out of the millions of people who support a candidate one of them is rude, you're a moron. And if you think that's a reason to disprefer the candidate, then you're a moron.

BTW, I once read an almost identical account from back in the Gore v. Bradley caucus days. A rude Gore supporter chased everyone to the Bradley side. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a story like this for every candidate.


Posted by: Michael | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 1:40 PM
horizontal rule
24

22: Uh, so 13 means I'm old? I admit I don't get it. (I'm also at work right now, so I may not be trying very hard.)


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 1:45 PM
horizontal rule
25

as an expression, that's what "dating yourself" generally means. As in, you are locating yourself in a register long enough to know who Rodney Dangerfield is. But it's dumb, because everyone knows who Rodney Dangerfield is, so whatever.


Posted by: Sybil Vane | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 1:49 PM
horizontal rule
26

23.---I do know that when I'm out and about wearing my Obama shirt, and lame guys look at my boobs, then at the Obama head on my boobs, then say "yeah, gObama, heh heh," I feel like I should be a bit more polite than usual while running away.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 1:51 PM
horizontal rule
27

Oh! thanks.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 1:51 PM
horizontal rule
28

My son (34 y. o.) and I saw a first-run Rodney Dangerfield movie ("Back to School") in the late eighties. Sam Kinison was also in the movie, which was aimed at his age group more or less.

Let's jeer at Ogged for a moment.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 1:54 PM
horizontal rule
29

But it's dumb, because everyone knows who Rodney Dangerfield is

The relevant consideration is surely whether someone would think to compare Campos to Dangerfield, rather than if they've merely heard of this Dangerfield.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 1:59 PM
horizontal rule
30

Jeer! Jeer! Jeer! Waves of derisive laughter!


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 2:03 PM
horizontal rule
31

You're going to pull a muscle, oldster.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 2:06 PM
horizontal rule
32

But I feel like thinking to compare him w/Dangerfield is much less a function of age than being mildly acquainted with him to begin with. The latter is the only real condition for the former.


Posted by: Sybil Vane | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 2:06 PM
horizontal rule
33

Great article. Sheesh, this caucus stuff is crap. One other thing that I just realized is that a lot of states tried out their new voting machines for the first time during the primaries. I bet that means a lot of the caucus states will be trying them out for the first time for the general.


Posted by: Becks | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 2:11 PM
horizontal rule
34

The whole primary system is crap, if you think it should have something to do with democracy.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 2:13 PM
horizontal rule
35

I think to make the connection parsimon did, you need more than a mild acquaintance; you need to have at least seen him do some stand-up, and I'll bet that his last stand-up appearance on tv was nearly twenty years ago.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 2:14 PM
horizontal rule
36

Do you need that level of familiarity to get the joke? I got it, with only a passing familiarity with his schitck.


Posted by: Sybil Vane | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 2:15 PM
horizontal rule
37

Getting the joke and thinking to make it require different levels of familiarity.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 2:18 PM
horizontal rule
38

Ogged was living in a cocoon during 1986-1988. Probably back in Luristan.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 2:19 PM
horizontal rule
39

You know what (revelatory pause)? I've just realized that I read 13 with entirely the wrong emphasis.

Of course I know what "dating yourself" means. Wow.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 2:19 PM
horizontal rule
40

God, not only is the beaten horse dead, it has turned into oil and is fueling a fleet of SUVs.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 2:19 PM
horizontal rule
41

And dude, Dangerfield is on beer commercials and stuff; bits of his standup are shown all the time. The last lines of the Campos piece sound exactly like him.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 2:21 PM
horizontal rule
42

I think it means we're bored, Cala.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 2:22 PM
horizontal rule
43

The whole primary system is crap, if you think it should have something to do with democracy.

Eh, I'm not sure any of the proposed solutions aren't worse. Small states allow for Huckabee surprises. And the demographic mess is going to be that way wherever the early primaries are held. It's not clear to me why making prove themselves in urban environs would be better. I certainly believe, for example, it was better for Obama that Iowa came early.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 2:27 PM
horizontal rule
44

Geez, people, obviously sybil and I are a-courtin'. Matt Weiner would have understood this.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 2:34 PM
horizontal rule
45

Sheesh, this caucus stuff is crap.

The whole primary system is crap

I realize we're talking about degrees of crapitude here, but people: our entire democracy is shit. This is a system based on multimillionaires courting the favor of other multimillionaires in order to sponsor neverending campaigns in which the overwhelming majority of the country is all but disenfranchised. It is designed to serve the very wealthiest and ignore the very poorest while testing the candidates not on their ability to govern or on the ideas they have or the policies they'd advance, but on their political connections and their ability to convincingly emote in front of a camera. This whole disgusting spectacle would be laughable if the person we were electing weren't, for all intents and purposes, the nigh-unchallengable ruler of the world.


Posted by: strasmangelo jones | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 2:34 PM
horizontal rule
46

I posted some great tapir penis videos on the hiatus thread.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 2:40 PM
horizontal rule
47

I see where the Obamaphilic Matt Yglesias, after getting awfully quiet post-Super Tuesday, now thinks Hillary's going to win the nomination.

This of course right when I've swung around to thinking that Obama really is better-poised to beat McCain. (Not that I think Hillary *can't* do it, but I am more worried about her, for all the reasons you know.)

Damn flip-flopping pundits!


Posted by: Anderson | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 2:42 PM
horizontal rule
48

parsimon and ogged are both right; it is a pretty boring courtship so far.


Posted by: Sybil Vane | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 2:44 PM
horizontal rule
49

Old people are more willing to settle.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 2:47 PM
horizontal rule
50

And here we go again.

I assume that a lot of this is simply the assumption: "we're going too late to matter, so why pay for a primary?" & the caucus sites are also set up with the assumption that they won't matter & people won't bother showing up. So it's good to see these things overwhelmed w/ participation, & that will probably lead to more primaries or more primary-like caucuses in the future.


Posted by: Katherine | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 3:03 PM
horizontal rule
51

So Huck beat McCain in Kansas 60-24. Let's have more caucuses!


Posted by: Nápi | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 3:15 PM
horizontal rule
52

Take my blog ...please!
(wrong guy, right tone)


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 3:17 PM
horizontal rule
53

Seriously, though, I don't see why people who complain about the role of party elites and stranglehold of the monied interests would oppose caucuses. The idea that a primary is a better venue for a non-establishment candidate is a complete illusion: looks good on paper, but totally swamped by low information voters following familiar figures.

Huck beating McCain is really the perfect example. We all know what the establishment wants right now: a coronation. And that's what it'll get from primaries, as we go forward.

And if the establishment screws up and doesn't have big enough venues, the anti-establishment candidate's followers are energized.


Posted by: Nápi | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 3:22 PM
horizontal rule
54

Caucuses tend to be dominated by party regulars, retirees, the self-employed, and the privately wealthy. They give a weird skew to the electorate. They probably do allow more grass-roots influence up to a point, though they also can be packed by political machines.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 3:27 PM
horizontal rule
55

It's really the difference between measuring number of supporters versus mean enthusiasm per supporter, right? Maybe measuring enthusiasm is good, but it's not what we're used to thinking about as "voting" in this country.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 3:27 PM
horizontal rule
56

50: Same thing happening at some sites in Washington, apparently. Speaking of which, some of the photos here from Obama's appearance at Key Arena—evidently the most fun anyone's had there in years—are pretty great. #2 is sweet; #7 is especially sweet when you think of how it must look to the Malkins of the world; #15 is moving, and especially sweet when you think of how it must look to mcmanus.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 3:27 PM
horizontal rule
57

55 is a very useful distillation, I think. But as the Campos piece, and that whole thread on cultish Obama/Clinton people demonstrate, enthusiasm can valence the wrong way in terms of generating more supporters. I wonder if there is exit-poll type data about the comparison of people turned off vs turned on to a candidate at caucuses.


Posted by: Sybil Vane | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 3:32 PM
horizontal rule
58

55 is a very useful distillation, I think. But as the Campos piece, and that whole thread on cultish Obama/Clinton people demonstrate, enthusiasm can valence the wrong way in terms of generating more supporters. I wonder if there is exit-poll type data about the comparison of people turned off vs turned on to a candidate at caucuses.


Posted by: Sybil Vane | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 3:32 PM
horizontal rule
59

55 -- It's how insurgents win. Bloodlessness favors the establishment.

54 -- The elite don't even have to try to "pack" a primary. Ads and journalists spouting conventional wisdom get that done. Toss the civics book in the trash can: a caucus gives the very best shot for an energized and organized challenger. And if you don't have that, no primary is going to give you anything worth having.

(Obviously, this doesn't mean that a caucus will always favor a challenger. But I think it's a far better shot than a primary.


Posted by: Nápi | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 3:32 PM
horizontal rule
60

enthusiasm can valence the wrong way

Baby, it had been too long.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 3:34 PM
horizontal rule
61

56: Those are nice pictures. I also like #25, for personal-fantasy reasons.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 3:37 PM
horizontal rule
62

61: Maybe foolishmortal could Photoshop your face onto that woman's.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 3:40 PM
horizontal rule
63

54,55:I oppose all forms and subsets of vanguardism, including for instance, the dictatorship of the proletariat.

Petey is back form sackcloth & ashes, and active with Kervick in the thread at MY's (currently at 174 comments( in which MY, ironically or not, predicts a Clinton nomination win.

You think the average Obama supporter doesn't have more disposable cash to donate to a campaign than the average Clinton supporter?

If so, you're an idiot.

The Obama financial steamroller is much the same as the Dean financial steamroller - lots of culturally liberal folks making $70k - $150k / yr, with no great interest (and even some contempt) for entitlement programs like Social Security and Universal Healthcare.

They're simply a more cosmopolitan of the upscale demographics that were flooding Ron Paul with cash on the other side.

...Petey

Elsewhere in that thread, I think, someone makes the comparison of Obama supporters to the McCarthy/McGovern supporters of 1968 who took over the Dem Party by 1972 and moved it tragically away from union/lunchbox/economic issues to social/cultural issues (always with an anti-war priority) and opened the door to Reagan & the right for thirty years. The left is not about peace;it is about equality.

Read C Wright Mills 1960 "Letter tto the New Left" this afternoon. Gobbledygook.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 3:42 PM
horizontal rule
64

My ego wall will be iconic representations of exquisite pleasure, all pour moi.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 3:42 PM
horizontal rule
65

I'm trying to step up the courtship a little bit.


Posted by: Sybil Vane | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 3:42 PM
horizontal rule
66

The trouble with cauci, best as I can tell, is that they're a one-shot event. To wit: in the Vermont of democratic fantasy, a caucus would represent a special meeting of a group of people who meet regularly to discuss polity. It would therefore be an outstanding way for democracy to work. However, everywhere else in our country, irregular attendance at lever-pulling elections is the most engaged people get. The caucus bears no relation to an existing form, and so you get all this perversity. Insofar as they're less shitty in Iowa (slightly, I would guess), it's because Iowans care about their tradition of quadrennial caucusing.

I dunno. I don't actually think we have a functioning democracy, representative or otherwise, at any level in this country. Even little towns are dominated by powerful long-time residents and/or the few cranks who bother to participate. I'm not quite sure why we're so bloody apathetic (I have a few ideas, and I suspect they'd be similar to stras's), but at this point we're clearly in a closed feedback loop, getting worse. Even if Obama were everything he's cracked up to be, and people got fired up and voted at 65% or something, it wouldn't do shit for vibrancy as a whole.

I'm not sure things ever worked here - maybe the balance was better between informed electorate and the big money boys - but insofar as they ever did, it stopped long, long ago.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 3:44 PM
horizontal rule
67

Katherine, I think the same Katherine, shows up at MY's and makes a point about a movement always being begun by young intellectuals. That has merit, and is an argument toward vanguardism, and I would have to think about it.

As a social movement, I can't say I'm so clear as to the ultimate goals of Obamism.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 3:48 PM
horizontal rule
68

In Oregon both state parties tend to be anti-populist. Oregon counts as a moderate state, but that means that you have about equal numbers of right, left, and center. If both parties were taken over by the grass roots you'd end up with a very liberal Democrat running against a very conservative Republican -- Feingold against Huckabee, except that the grassroots candidate would probably be wacky and inept. The outcome would be unpredictable buttending right, I think.

Much of the luck the Democrats have had statewide over the last 10 years + has been the result of wacko control of the Republican Party. But the wackos have controlled the legislature for much of that time.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 3:53 PM
horizontal rule
69

Yeah, well, Petey's dislike of young antiwar voters is longstanding. The average EDWARDS supporter was also more educated & wealthy than the average Clinton supporter. Bill Bradley had a far more ambitious health care entitlement plan than Al Gore in 2000, & yet he got completely crushed among more working-class, lower-information voters & completely crushed among minorities. I bet Donna Edwards fares better among more educated voters today too; it's not because Wynn is such a great friend to the working man. Nor does George W. Bush beating that darn liberal elitist John Kerry among low income voters in many places show that he's a great friend to the working man. This is just the usual effort to say that some voters are less equal than others. Obama's supporters don't count because they are too white, too black, too young, too educated, too rural in Nebraska, too urban in Missouri....Clinton supporters don't count because they are too female....Nuts to all that. A vote is a vote is a vote is a vote is a vote.


Posted by: Katherine | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 3:53 PM
horizontal rule
70

I certainly believe, for example, it was better for Obama that Iowa came early.

This isn't always going to be true, and anyway it's a crappy argument for a system. If Obama isn't what most Democrats want, a system which makes him the nominee isn't a good one, both from a democratic perspective and a practical one.

To #55 -- yeah, it does measure enthusiasm, but it also relies on people being able to express that enthusiasm. Poor people have less of an ability to caucus*; this will hurt candidates who appeal to poor people, and favour candidates who appeal to the better off. (Application to this race is rather obvious, and quite possibly contradicted by the facts.)

* Conventional wisdom, which could be utterly wrong -- does anyone have any solid information?


Posted by: Keir | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 3:56 PM
horizontal rule
71

I've got no problem with people who decide not to support a politician because his/her supporters are enthusiastic. that same person hoping for revolution, or even 'change' is pretty ridiculous. How do you think human civilizations work?


Posted by: Napi | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 3:59 PM
horizontal rule
72

69:A vote is a vote is a vote is a vote is a vote.

Legalism isn't really the point. And there are differences among the results of elections, caucuses, nominations and the understanding of social and political movements.

Quite specifically, many of the young collegiates energized against the war in the 60s eventually became Reaganites in the 80s, because their economic interests diverged from the interests of the base of the Democratic Party. So we got tax cuts, spending cuts, and a defense buildup.

As far as a vote is a vote, someone had a line about a caucus held at Whole Foods while Safeway voters were at work.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 4:06 PM
horizontal rule
73

69: And yet, all I've heard for years is bitching that the youth are apathetic and not interested in politics and clutching pearls and rending garments over the fate of the republic, and when the youth* do turn out, it turns into bitching that they're whirly-eyed and ugh, so distastefully enthusiastic, harold, they walked on our lawn. Nuts to all that indeed.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 4:09 PM
horizontal rule
74

Huckabee takes Kansas 60-24-11 over McCain and Paul.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 4:13 PM
horizontal rule
75

Ya know it's funny, but as the economic system rushes toward collapse or feudalism, I am a getting much better populist vibe from the econblogs, even such places as Big Picture and Calculated Risk. The lawyer blogs, like LGM and Balkinization, seem to blog as if the economy didn't exist.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 4:14 PM
horizontal rule
76

It's not just LEGALISM and more than the equal protection clause is just legalism. The point is that everyone's vote should count equally & the idea that some voters are less valuable than others because they are too urban, too rural, too black, too white, too young, too old, or otherwise is bullsh*t. This is David Brooks' & Karl Rove's whole game. Look, if it weren't for black voters the Democrats would lose by so much! Look, if it weren't for those coastal liberal elites, the Democrats would lose by so much! Blacks aren't Real Americans (tm). Women aren't Real Americans (tm). College kids aren't Real Americans (tm). People with graduate degrees aren't Real Americans (tm). Massachusetts & California aren't Real America (tm).

Caucuses are less democratic than primaries, but a caucus where more people show up is more democratic than one where fewer do, & the way. I don't generally approve of caucuses, but trying to get out the vote in the locations where it's going to win you the most delegates is not a sinister plot to disenfranchise the electorate, & may in fact lead to caucuses being replaced w/ primaries or at least more primary-like caucuses in the future.

This is, I'm sure, completely obvious to just about everyone here--don't mind me, just being trolled again.


Posted by: Katherine | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 4:15 PM
horizontal rule
77

It was over at B's that m. leblanc was chortling about a news reporter or something referring to the educated white male vote, like one of the media's "special" groups that don't really count.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 4:21 PM
horizontal rule
78

76:Katherine, you are putting words in my mouth again. I have never said the some votes shouldn't count, or that some voters were more Real Americans than others. Cite those words.

I have talking about the interests & motivations of different sets of voters, and the consequences.

But everyone will read 76, and know what I really said or meant, because Katherine said so. It's ok, I'm used to it.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 4:22 PM
horizontal rule
79

Uh, as a M/i/c/h/i/g/a/n law student, you'd be doing me a favor if you'd google-proof posts involving both my school and Ms. C/o/u/l/t/e/r. If I can just get the Wikipedia nerds to see it my way, I think I could really improve the value of my degree.


Posted by: ed bowlinger | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 4:23 PM
horizontal rule
80

Being just a little too young to remember the arguments between the New Left and Old Left in the 60s, it's history to me too.

But there do seem to be enough parallels to our current election cycle and political dilemmas that I am trying to understand if this is a recurring problem, or a symptom of late capitalism, or something.

paine, the free verse Maoist at Mark Thoma's is fascinating. The disappeared Sawicky understood a lot. And I swear the crew at Crooked Timber could say a lot more.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 4:30 PM
horizontal rule
81

Yeah, the caucus I went to wasn't so bad, it looked like we were maybe on track for about the same number of voters as in an off-year primary. Which was apparently handleable, but I think I'd rather see a primary in addition to the caucus or something like that. The Repugs here are against it for the same reason they come down on one side or the other of every election issue: they want to discourage participation to the maximum extent possible, as that can only help them. Seriously. I've judged elections at 2 different, heavily DFL precincts over the past 4 elections, and it's pretty clear that in areas like mine, anything the Repugs could do to discourage people from showing up (a) they'll do and (b) it will have the desired effect.

What we really need for elections is as follows:
1. Election day to become a national holiday
2. Paper ballots for everyone
3. Higher pay for election judges and more PR campaigns to get people to judge
4. Mandatory infomercials in prime time in the weeks leading up to the primaries and the general election to explain how people vote and how elections work.
5. No more electoral college.


Posted by: minneapolitan | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 4:37 PM
horizontal rule
82

Not reading the article, but the bit Parsimon quotes in 12 is exactly the sort of thing I'm talking about when I say that a lot of anti-Clinton stuff is subtly misogynist. What, this guy can't make a case for his candidate without that? And I'm supposed to vote for his candidate?

That kind of crap is at least as offputting as the women in the bit Ogged quoted. More, actually; at least they didn't imply that he doesn't know what he's talking about because, you know, he's a man.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 4:44 PM
horizontal rule
83

Re. caucusing, the boyfriend went in Minneapolis and said he ended up registering people as they came in the door. One old guy asked, "are you sure it's okay for me to register as a Dem? I used to be a Republican."

The boyfriend said, "it's a big tent. A really, really big tent."

The old guy caucused for Obama.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 4:47 PM
horizontal rule
84

This isn't always going to be true, and anyway it's a crappy argument for a system.

The bit you quote referencing the benefit to Obama wasn't used by me in reference to caucuses, but rather in reference to the white, "rural" nature of Iowa. (AFAICT, "rural state" means "not dominated by a city or two.) People have argued that African-Americans were holding their potential Obama votes back until they could find out if other Americans would support him. That's all I meant.

Quite specifically, many of the young collegiates energized against the war in the 60s eventually became Reaganites in the 80s,

That's not the standard definition of the Reagan Democrat: working class white--and I think ethnic white--who votes his culture, not his pocketbook. (To be fair, Carter hadn't seemed to deliver much on "pocketbook.)


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 4:48 PM
horizontal rule
85

Yeah, that makes sense, if only in a very depressing way.


Posted by: Keir | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 4:54 PM
horizontal rule
86

JMcQ, thanks for the link in 56. Those are beautiful.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 4:56 PM
horizontal rule
87

I'm calling this on-topic because I've been relaying to you the ongoing saga about my brother's failed efforts to get his act together and register to vote:

In a discussion about how Bro has flaked about registering to vote, my mother recounted a list of other flaky things he's done this week, including:

Today [Brother] wrote a text message to me saying he thought he needed to break up with his girlfriend, and he sent it to [Girlfriend whose name begins with the letter M] instead of "Mom". Guess who called him about 1 minute later, and who no longer is the girlfriend.

Posted by: Becks | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 4:57 PM
horizontal rule
88

87; So great. And that's not flakiness, that's plausible deniability.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 4:57 PM
horizontal rule
89

That's not the standard definition of the Reagan Democrat: working class white--and I think ethnic white--who votes his culture, not his pocketbook

Yeah, I should get some evidence to back that up. I presume 2nd wave feminists remained Democrats, bless them, and the blacks always have known their interests, but certainly I can give at least one extreme example of the flipping yuppie:David Horowitz.

Funny, while I was out in the kitchen, I was trying to think of the Democratic yuppie/gated communitarian version of What's the Matter with Kansas.

It doesn't matter. If Obama gets elected, nobody's gonna be able to stop the New Gilded Age of Compassionate Liberalism.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 5:09 PM
horizontal rule
90

Becks, that's hilarious. My brother had oral surgery a few weeks ago, and when my sister called to check on him later that afternoon, told her that he'd already left a voicemail for his girlfriend. Except he used the ex's name.

Apparently he was so incoherent on the phone message that she couldn't understand it anyway. Saved by the mumbling.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 5:13 PM
horizontal rule
91

Hell, I got Yggles open in another window, and see the two most recent comments:

You know, I thought something along these lines yesterday, when my New Yorker came with Hertzberg's piece in the Comment section mentioning how hard it is to find a strongly pro-Hillary voter. Um yeah, only if you run in very elite circles. I know quite a lot of passionately pro-Hillary voters, and they aren't crazy or deluded or even strongly anti-Obama -- they just like what she has to say, and feel strongly that she can deliver. If you don't know any of these people, I'd suggest you're swimming in an altogether too-elite pool.

Posted by Yikes | February 9, 2008 6:58 PM

People are forgetting the horrible economy in Ohio and much of PA (and the whole country, actually).

There aren't enough people who have the luxury of "hope" and "unity" (and it is a luxury)--many more millions of us need practical help from our govt, even if it is divisive and partisan--and Hillary is more likely to get it for us.

Posted by amberglow | February 9, 2008 7:06 PM

Maybe I'm not crazy, just on the wrong kind of blog, but there just aren't enough bluecollar blogs out there, and I keep hoping I can reach just one person...


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 5:15 PM
horizontal rule
92

81: Add free TV-radio commercials equally divided between the candidates, and no other commercials there.

Impossible under the US constitution, of course.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 5:19 PM
horizontal rule
93

87-88: Jesus, that's not flaky, that's Oedipal.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 5:21 PM
horizontal rule
94

that's not flaky

Sounds like just a careless mistake: the kid presumably has a drop-down menu of To: recipients in his email program, hit "M", and scrolled down to the wrong entry. I've -- well, nearly -- done it.

I suppose you could argue that careless mistake = flaky.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 5:29 PM
horizontal rule
95

oedipal Freudian slips with mothers can be painful. One guy meant to say "Mom, could you pass the butter please?", but what came out was "You fucking bitch! You ruined my life!"


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 5:32 PM
horizontal rule
96

Becks, that's awesome. At least it solves the problem of how to break up with her. Replaces it with new ones, probably, but give the boy some credit.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 5:32 PM
horizontal rule
97

I caucused for Obama this afternoon. At my precint the vote broke ~5:1 for Obama which wasn't completely surprising since it was mostly younger voters. The group of Clinton supporters at my precint was older and almost entirely female (I saw two men in the group). I was happy to see Obama doing well, but I was a little dissapointed to see how strongly the demographic trends played out.

I have to say that the discussion here certainly helped me shift from undecided to supporting obama, but it also made it so that it took me a long time to feel good about that. But I do, and Hilzoy's endorsement did a lot to help me feel good about Obama, and I forwarded that to my friends.


Posted by: NickS | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 5:40 PM
horizontal rule
98

Better one sad midwestern girl than ten dead innocent Iraqis.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 5:41 PM
horizontal rule
99

Ogged is trying to start a fight.

He doesn't really believe that.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 5:44 PM
horizontal rule
100

PK has twice recently called the cat "Mama."


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 5:45 PM
horizontal rule
101

See, PK is too flaky to join the Army.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 5:51 PM
horizontal rule
102

Oh no, how tragic.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 5:52 PM
horizontal rule
103

OT: Someone was just telling me about hearing Den/nis Pra/ger on his radio show saying that the grief of losing a parent is under-discussed in our society. My mental response was "I wonder why he thinks it was worth inflicting that grief on a few million Iraqis, then."

But I don't want to jump to conclusions or be unfair-- can someone confirm that he actually supported the Iraq war? I skimmed his Wikipedia entry but it didn't seem definitive, and I don't want to read more.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 5:54 PM
horizontal rule
104

Gotta be a different brother than the TaeKwonLeap brother, because that brother was only 15, and hence cannot register to vote even if he is as unflaky as my pie crusts.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 5:55 PM
horizontal rule
105

I know: we must stamp out flakiness wherever we find it. Otherwise the terrorists win.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 5:55 PM
horizontal rule
106

Obama wins big in NE and WA. Long live the caucuses.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 6:49 PM
horizontal rule
107

Louisiana results still to go, but it looks like it's going to be an Obama blowout there, too.


Posted by: strasmangelo jones | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 6:51 PM
horizontal rule
108

I'd be surprised as shit if Obama didn't win Louisiana.

Is that racist?


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 6:52 PM
horizontal rule
109

Probably. I was totally unsurprised when my diss director told me she voted for Clinton. Is that sexist?


Posted by: Sybil Vane | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 6:56 PM
horizontal rule
110

108 is sexist, 109 is racist. Get it straight, people!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 6:58 PM
horizontal rule
111

The CW has been that LA is Obama country but I couldn't find a single poll, which had me worried that expectations might be unjustly high. But I guess we'll find out soon enough.


Posted by: Otto von Bisquick | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 7:00 PM
horizontal rule
112

I am ignoring 85% of the revision direction I've received for the diss draft I am turning in Monday. Is that defeatist?


Posted by: Sybil Vane | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 7:01 PM
horizontal rule
113

109: Yes, sexist, if all you know about your dissertation advisor is that she's a woman. I had a 60-something gentleman visiting at the bookshop this morning who pursed his lips at Obama (worried about Obama's connection to some sort of financial industry lobbying interests in Illinois) and was firm that he'd vote for Clinton. Is that ageist?


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 7:07 PM
horizontal rule
114

Speculation: one of the reasons this (primary) election is so fascinating is that the outcomes are really kind of all over the place, seemingly defying media narratives, such as they are, and polling projections.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 7:10 PM
horizontal rule
115

I picked up some takeout at the neighborhood Chinese restaurant tonight, and as I was waiting, campaign coverage came on the TV over the bar. The two Chinese bartenders shouted (without apparent irony) "Hirrary!", and when Obama's face came on they loudly jeered.

Is is racist of me to attribute this to stereotypical Asian racism against Blacks?


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 7:12 PM
horizontal rule
116

112: No. As long as you can explain why you're ignoring it, either in the defense or in an intro/conclusion. Or something like that.

115: It's racist of you to mock their accents.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 7:17 PM
horizontal rule
117

Not sure if Bob's still around, but the whole argument that blog commenters are pro-Obama because they don't give a shit about the poor and the economic side of the progressive agenda needs to explain the strong support for Edwards - consistently ahead in all straw polls I saw till NH. IIRC Petey was a JE fan.


Posted by: tkm | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 7:18 PM
horizontal rule
118

Maybe I'm not crazy, just on the wrong kind of blog, but there just aren't enough bluecollar blogs out there, and I keep hoping I can reach just one person...

Yes, the problem is that everyone here is rich.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 7:18 PM
horizontal rule
119

Is is racist of me to attribute this to stereotypical Asian racism against Blacks?

Depends. Did you order the cat?


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 7:19 PM
horizontal rule
120

It's racist of you to mock their accents.

Mocking accents is good old fashioned "foreigners talk funny", not racism.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 7:20 PM
horizontal rule
121

120: Racist apologist.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 7:22 PM
horizontal rule
122

when Obama's face came on they loudly jeered

Asians really are very racist; even more racist than Iranians, I think. Which is to say that I think Iranians wouldn't mind their kid marrying a black person who was rich, credentialed, and successful, but Asians still might. Feel the love.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 7:24 PM
horizontal rule
123

There's a Tom Lehrer song with the line

He's from Georgia, and he doesn't speak the language very well

Is that sectionalist?


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 7:27 PM
horizontal rule
124

Woe! We're poor, and the poor stay poor.
Woe! We're the ones to die in War.
Always the wars, always the poor.
As the owners count their profits
As the bourgeois count their virtues
As the scholars count their insights
And all accounts are balanced
With sorrow and pity for the poor.


Posted by: Sad Midwestern Girl | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 7:29 PM
horizontal rule
125

Asians really are very racist; even more racist than Iranians

You can be forgiven for trying to take advantage of our ignorance of geography, I suppose, but a few of us know that Iran is in Asia.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 7:30 PM
horizontal rule
126

We're all Jesus's children.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 7:31 PM
horizontal rule
127

Asians really are very racist

Which countries, cultures, religions, ethnicities?


Posted by: asl | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 7:31 PM
horizontal rule
128

Is it possible to order the amount of racism by ethnic origin within the category of Asian? For some reason, I always assume the Japanese are worst and the Koreans the best.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 7:32 PM
horizontal rule
129

stereotypical Asian racism against Blacks
when i first came here i was so sympathetic towards black people, after growing reading for example Beecher-Stowe's uncle Tom etc
but when you get like almost daily someone will shout behind you chink or something you'll get some negative feelings too, what was surprising for me was this stereotypical Black racism against Asians
not all black people like that of course


Posted by: read | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 7:33 PM
horizontal rule
130

I assume that my cat is uncommitted. Is that speciesist?


Posted by: Merganser | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 7:35 PM
horizontal rule
131

Ogged hates Asians. Everyone knows that.

Whether that fact indicates a certain self-loathing and/or contradicts his claim that Iranians are less racist than Asians, I leave up to you.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 7:35 PM
horizontal rule
132

Read, are you serious that you read Uncle Tom's Cabin growing up? That's a book that very few Americans have even read.

(eb, Ogged is trolling.)


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 7:38 PM
horizontal rule
133

Is it possible to order the amount of racism by ethnic origin within the category of Asian? For some reason, I always assume the Japanese are worst and the Koreans the best.

This reminds me of a joke about a North Korean, a South Korean and Japanese guy who go to a restaurant in the U.S. One of them orders sushi and the waiter says, in English, "I'm sorry, we don't have any sushi." The North Korean says "What is 'Sushi'?" The Japanese guy says, "What is 'Don't have'?" and the South Korean says, "What is 'I'm sorry'?"

The nice thing about this joke is that I have no idea whether it maps onto any actual stereotypes apart from the obvious North Korean one.



Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 7:38 PM
horizontal rule
134

Ogged hates Asians. Everyone knows that.

He doesn't hate'em. He just won't date'em.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 7:38 PM
horizontal rule
135

I always assume the Japanese are worst and the Koreans the best

I assume that too, but mostly because the Japanese also look down on the Koreans, and the Koreans I know are most likely to act like black dudes.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 7:39 PM
horizontal rule
136

yes, it was even in the literature course at school
i think in all soc countries may be
i remember i read the book when i was 12 may be


Posted by: read | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 7:41 PM
horizontal rule
137

Mark Ames on Hillary Clinton:

Poor Hillary, no matter how sweetly she soups up her cheek implants or blonds up her gray roots, and no matter how blandly she tries to out-bland Barack with her her flat monotone voice, she just can't break out of her character role as America's Misogyny Magnet: she's the bitchy-neighbor in the bad sitcom who always gets the live studio audience to crow "oooo": the minute the camera focuses on her, most men feel a kind of unmediated hate that's completely beyond their control, a strain of perfectly preserved, primal misogyny locked up deep inside of just about every voting-age male's psyche (if you men claim you haven't felt it, you're either monstrous liars or else you're wearing a leather head harness with an inflatable mouth gag as you're reading this).

Sure she's as bland as Obama, perhaps even marginally blander, but at the animal level, she triggers a neurochemical jet that sets off the very first hate most men feel when they encounter a powerful and threatening woman (like, say, I dunno, your 4th grade teacher Mrs. McManus? or the dean Ms. Mead, the wrinkled-mouth Episcopalian baboon who kicked you out of school and told you you'd never amount to anything?).

For years now American men have been trying to attach some sort of moral or political significance to their Hillary hatred, but safely out here in Eurasia, I can tell the simple plain truth about it: it's a misogyny that they can't control. They hate her because she's the embodiment of every woman they've ever hated since the time they opened their eyes. It can't be explained, which is why it's such an ugly yet pure hatred, and why everyone burns the candle on both ends to justify the hate in moralistic terms, or political terms, or anything but raw misogyny. She's been taking the misogyny heat for a good 25 years from roughly 150 million Americans, maybe more, and it's transformed her into the perfect male-ego punching bag, with just about as much soul and sensitivity as a thick leather bag full of padded stuffing can possibly have.

Poor Hillary, no matter how sweetly she soups up her cheek implants or blonds up her gray roots, and no matter how blandly she tries to out-bland Barack with her her flat monotone voice, she just can't break out of her character role as America's Misogyny Magnet: she's the bitchy-neighbor in the bad sitcom who always gets the live studio audience to crow "oooo": the minute the camera focuses on her, most men feel a kind of unmediated hate that's completely beyond their control, a strain of perfectly preserved, primal misogyny locked up deep inside of just about every voting-age male's psyche (if you men claim you haven't felt it, you're either monstrous liars or else you're wearing a leather head harness with an inflatable mouth gag as you're reading this).

Sure she's as bland as Obama, perhaps even marginally blander, but at the animal level, she triggers a neurochemical jet that sets off the very first hate most men feel when they encounter a powerful and threatening woman (like, say, I dunno, your 4th grade teacher Mrs. McManus? or the dean Ms. Mead, the wrinkled-mouth Episcopalian baboon who kicked you out of school and told you you'd never amount to anything?).

For years now American men have been trying to attach some sort of moral or political significance to their Hillary hatred, but safely out here in Eurasia, I can tell the simple plain truth about it: it's a misogyny that they can't control. They hate her because she's the embodiment of every woman they've ever hated since the time they opened their eyes. It can't be explained, which is why it's such an ugly yet pure hatred, and why everyone burns the candle on both ends to justify the hate in moralistic terms, or political terms, or anything but raw misogyny. She's been taking the misogyny heat for a good 25 years from roughly 150 million Americans, maybe more, and it's transformed her into the perfect male-ego punching bag, with just about as much soul and sensitivity as a thick leather bag full of padded stuffing can possibly have.

I think he agrees with Bitch that sexism might have something to do with it.

http://www.alternet.org/election08/75750/



Posted by: PerfectlyGoddamnDelightful | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 7:41 PM
horizontal rule
138

(eb, Ogged is trolling.)

I was ignoring ogged and keeping up the line of "is that...-ist?" questioning.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 7:42 PM
horizontal rule
139

whoops -- how the fuck did that happen? Sorry.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 7:42 PM
horizontal rule
140

the Koreans I know are most likely to act like black dudes

Really? They have to hike their pants up to keep them from falling off every few steps?

(People, this is making me uncomfortable, you fuckers.)


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 7:43 PM
horizontal rule
141

(My own experience of anti-black racism among Americans of Asian descent is that it is highly variable by geographic circumstances, social class and prospects, and personal experience, along with the usual considerations of gender, age, and so forth. A third-generation Filipino-American living in the 'burbs is going to have an entirely different set of experiences and biases than a first-generation rural Chinese immigrant running a corner store in the inner city.)


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 7:44 PM
horizontal rule
142

137: I don't know if I want to grant that the guy who is supposed to be behind the War Nerd has a heck of a lot of insight into how other people think. (Though I like the War Nerd columns.)


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 7:44 PM
horizontal rule
143

a first-generation rural Chinese immigrant running a corner store in the inner city

my impression is that everyone running a corner store in the inner city is racist, regardless of ethnic or racial background.


Posted by: PerfectlyGoddamnDelightful | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 7:45 PM
horizontal rule
144

141 is totally racist. How dare you divide asian people against each other like that?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 7:45 PM
horizontal rule
145

128: I don't know about Koreans, but Japanese racism is often very open, and follows the traditional sliding scale of proportionality to darkness of skin, with Koreans singled out for special abuse for historical reasons. I met a Sri Lankan couple in my neighborhood outside of Tokyo, and the woman seemed to be in a special sort of hell, as a second-class citizen in her own home (as her husband's servant, essentially) within a larger society that held them both in contempt.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 7:46 PM
horizontal rule
146

138, whooops, I'm an idiot. I wasn't talking about you, eb. I meant to refer to asl's 127.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 7:46 PM
horizontal rule
147

123: Tom Lehrer also had I Wanna Go Back to Dixie, with the lyrics

I wanna go back to Dixie,
Take me back to dear ol' Dixie,
That's the only li'l ol' place for li'l ol' me.
Old times there are not forgotten,
Whuppin' slaves and sellin' cotton...
...And eat corn pone till it's comin' outta my ears.
I wanna talk with Southern gentlemen
And put that white sheet on again,
I ain't seen one good lynchin' in years.
The land of the boll weevil,
Where the laws are medieval,
Is callin' me to come and nevermore roam.


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 7:46 PM
horizontal rule
148

144: Guilty!


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 7:47 PM
horizontal rule
149

Oh sure, drag the Filipinos into it. True fact: I have a part-Chinese, part-Filipino friend who is my age and until a few years ago, would not admit to any but his closest friends that he was part Filipino. He has one hilarious story of being asked point blank by Filipino strangers to settle a bet about whether he's Filipino and denying it even then. What I'm trying to say is, Asians are so racist that they don't even care if the other race is in their own body. Witt.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 7:49 PM
horizontal rule
150

149: I'm definitely sure you couldn't tell a story like that about white folks pretending not to be Polish or Irish or whatever. Idjit.

And with that, I'm taking my stuffy head and sniffly nose off to watch Amazing Grace. Can you say justified racism?


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 7:51 PM
horizontal rule
151

but mostly because the Japanese also look down on the Koreans

I knew a half-Japanese, half-White American guy who lived in Japan while growing up. He left me with a healthy regard for Japanese racism.

Really, the Chinese should be allowed, by reason of historical importance, to be the most racist in the region. Then maybe th e Japanese, or maybe the Koreans.

and the Koreans I know are most likely to act like black dudes.

Better than what I suspect is motivating me: I think I have a mild Korean fetish, and so I want them to be the nicest.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 7:51 PM
horizontal rule
152

150: I have a grandfather who called himself Tom for years because he didn't want to reveal that he was Italian.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 7:53 PM
horizontal rule
153

151: dude the Hmong totally have dibs.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 7:53 PM
horizontal rule
154

Which is to say, I was fairly startled by the casual racism towards the Hmong I encountered in Laos and Thailand.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 7:55 PM
horizontal rule
155

I'm definitely sure you couldn't tell a story like that about white folks pretending not to be Polish or Irish or whatever

Well, I certainly couldn't since I've never personally heard one like it, but no doubt it's historically true. Does it get the dastardly Asians off the hook? No sir.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 7:58 PM
horizontal rule
156

Which is to say that I think Iranians wouldn't mind their kid marrying a black person who was rich, credentialed, and successful, but Asians still might.

My pretty young Chinese teacher in Taiwan told me "My father wants me to marry a Chinese, but all doctors count as Chinese." (Including PhDs. ) A black PhD would be a test case, but if he had quiet, pleasant manners I think he'd be cool.

Some of the Chinese feelings about black Americans were probably developed here in America, based on local circumstances. Not all "minorities" love one another, despite what one of my fellow HS teachers expected.

The general truth that E. Asians are racist has some truth, except that it's not a one-drop rule and it's more national than racial. Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, and Vietnamese can have very harsh group feelings about one another.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 8:01 PM
horizontal rule
157

What I'm trying to say is, Asians are so racist that they don't even care if the other race is in their own body.

Passing.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 8:02 PM
horizontal rule
158

156 to 122


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 8:02 PM
horizontal rule
159

i admit i hate the Chinese, but just in vague historical sense, when it comes to actual person i would never allow myself to act racist against anyone
it's true that the Chinese, the Korean and the Japanese hate each other, the east Asians are so far from us i haven't met them enough to build any judgment
the Koreans and the Japanese count us as their ancestors, close kin or what, so me personally never met the racist attitude in either country


Posted by: read | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 8:03 PM
horizontal rule
160

Oy. I know this is all pathetically liberal PC and shit, but when we're talking about how racist various groups of Asians are, could we nod to the idea that each individual person is as racist as they, themselves happen to be, and while there are certainly national trends about what sort of attitudes people tend to have, nothing's universal among any ethnic group?

I so could not figure out how to say that in any remotely charming or entertaining way. But I don't care, because I'm still all giddy and gleeful.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 8:03 PM
horizontal rule
161

Mr. Houshmanzadeh was willing to marry a black woman.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 8:04 PM
horizontal rule
162

You know, a few of the neighborhoods I frequent here in Mpls must be catching up on NYC for most racial/ethnic diversity. In one block you can find Hmong, Vietnamese, Cambodian, Laotian, Somali, Oromo, Ethiopian, African-American, Ecuadorian, Mexican, Korean-adoptee, Chinese and Euro-American people all living cheek-to-jowl and getting along famously most of the time. That's not to say there aren't divisions -- I heard the young, fairly assimilated Egyptian guy who works at the convenience store haranguing a younger African-American woman about how he didn't get any welfare when he came over, thank you very much. And then there's his cousin, the owner, who makes no distinctions about race if there's a young woman around who seems receptive to his palaver. On the bus the other day, I heard a young white bohemian woman enthusiastically explaining her house-sharing arrangement to a group of Native pre-teens. They seemed genuinely interested.

I think it's ridiculous to try to boil all of this down to a single continuum. I mean, Koreans? Virtually every Korean I've ever met was adopted into a middle or upper-middle class white family as a baby. Who do they "get" to be racist towards? Most of the time, most people are alright, especially if alcohol is not involved.


Posted by: minneapolitan | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 8:04 PM
horizontal rule
163

Garfield County in Washington (pop. 2397, according to Wikipedia) went 100% for Obama: 1 vote, 100% of precincts reporting.


Posted by: Merganser | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 8:04 PM
horizontal rule
164

Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, and Vietnamese can have very harsh group feelings about one another.

And don't get me started about the Indonesian. Oy!


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 8:04 PM
horizontal rule
165

Mr. Houshmanzadeh was willing to marry a black woman.

I thought he knocked her up and disappeared.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 8:05 PM
horizontal rule
166

while there are certainly national trends about what sort of attitudes people tend to have, nothing's universal among any ethnic group

Of course.

Except for those English fuckers, obviously.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 8:05 PM
horizontal rule
167

But I don't care, because I'm still all giddy and gleeful

Woe!


Posted by: Sad Asian-American Girl | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 8:06 PM
horizontal rule
168

137: Mrs. McManus

? Bob ?


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 8:06 PM
horizontal rule
169

i meant the south-east Asians, like the Thai or the Filippines


Posted by: read | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 8:07 PM
horizontal rule
170

nothing's universal among any ethnic group?

Unless we're talking about Asians. And, obv., the damnable Lurs.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 8:07 PM
horizontal rule
171

155: Ogged, your half-Chinese, half-Filipino friend is undoubtedly hot, for what that's worth.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 8:08 PM
horizontal rule
172

FWIW, the Chinese love Bill Clinton because of his policies and interest towards China. He signed a bill (99?) granting them normal and permanent trading partner status opening the way to WTO membership. He's also made very high profile visits for AIDS orphans, a tech startup and likely others. So Hillary is an extension of that.


Posted by: asl | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 8:11 PM
horizontal rule
173

165: You're stereotyping your own people, Ogged.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 8:11 PM
horizontal rule
174

The power of positive stereotyping.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 8:11 PM
horizontal rule
175

your half-Chinese, half-Filipino friend is undoubtedly hot

Yeah, he's very good-looking. We used to joke, trading on stereotypes that 1) Asians are second-class citizens in the US and 2) Vietnamese men are ugly that he's "a male model in Vietnam."

We thought it was funny. After some woman told him he was well-endowed "for an Asian guy," we further decided that his tombstone would read "He lived a good life. For an Asian guy."


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 8:12 PM
horizontal rule
176

174 was to 171.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 8:12 PM
horizontal rule
177

160 is of course true. But when we're talking about broad electoral results, unfortunately the broad patterns of more or less racism dominates individual variation (which is huge, obviously).

Plus Sifu's right: the Hmong are probably the most screwed east asian ethnic group I know of. Historically poor and uneducated hunters/farmers, just a large enough ethnic group to be known and hated by everyone in Indochina. I've heard they're also getting hated in Minnesota (where a critical mass have settled for who the hell knows what reason) for hunting on private land.


IM just sent to me by fellow Obama supporter:
Hat Trick!
Turkey!
M-m-m-monster Kill!


Posted by: Po-Mo Polymath | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 8:12 PM
horizontal rule
178

My friend who's half Norwegian-American and half Vietnamese has an absurd number of confounding stories about racism. For instance, upon going to visit his sister in Hawaii, he was several times in racially-mixed groupings of Chinese, Native Hawaiians, Japanese, and multiracial people such as himself. The rest of the group invariably informed him that, racially, things were cool in Hawaii, just watch out for the damned [epithet describing Filipinos]. His jaw was like, always dropping.


Posted by: minneapolitan | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 8:13 PM
horizontal rule
179

169: aw those flakes just party all the time. You're much more serious than that. Stick with the melancholy Russians.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 8:13 PM
horizontal rule
180

After some woman told him he was well-endowed "for an Asian guy,"

That's so great.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 8:15 PM
horizontal rule
181

165: You're stereotyping your own people, Ogged.

This was going to be my next point, that what seems like straight-up racism from my family and my Asian friends' families is just the lack of a cultural agreement that all ethnic stereotyping is bad, because they stereotype themselves like mad. Lurs: stubborn hicks. Iranians in general: hospitable, materialistic, more sensitive and perceptive than everyone else, etc. It's as if all the white people in the US, and not just slol and Labs, had an agreement that they sure are uptight.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 8:15 PM
horizontal rule
182

I doubt that East Asians are a lot more racist than Americans, if at all, but the racism is not concealed, but just stated as truisms.

My Chinese teacher says, and I agree, that the Koreans are amazingly frank. The Mysterious East thing isn't there; they'll surprise you by pushing the envelope.

I doubt that anyone has ever said that about Japanese or Chinese as a group.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 8:16 PM
horizontal rule
183

I used to date a Cambodian girl and witnessed (1) the shit she got for allegedly looking Thai, (b) her cousins calling me "big nose", and (3) her terrible, terrible driving.

Which is all to say, people, ogged is trolling you again.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 8:17 PM
horizontal rule
184

The anti-Hmong racism around here is mostly out in the sticks. There've been two well-publicized incidents involving people hunting on the wrong land and fatalities resulting. But you'd be hard pressed to find a lot of people in Hennepin or Ramsey counties who are virulent, vocal anti-Hmong racists. Remember, we volunteered to host them after the war, after all.

There's also burgeoning Tibetan and Karen populations here, although both are fairly small in numbers, they're receiving more attention of late. Mostly all positive.


Posted by: minneapolitan | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 8:18 PM
horizontal rule
185

181: why the hell you think we had to split England, man? Our uptightness wouldn't fly with with those disestablishmentarian libertine fucks.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 8:18 PM
horizontal rule
186

is just the lack of a cultural agreement that all ethnic stereotyping is bad

s/b "further evidence of their unwillingness to assimilate that gives rise to natural suspicions about their susceptibility to terrorist ideologies."


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 8:18 PM
horizontal rule
187

After some woman told him he was well-endowed "for an Asian guy,"

In Japan, concerning general perception of penis size, Asian:white::white:black. It's a little odd to have people trying to check out your junk in public restrooms.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 8:19 PM
horizontal rule
188

Sometimes my cousin will do something and my mom will roll her eyes and say how "Lur" he's acting.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 8:19 PM
horizontal rule
189

...laydeez.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 8:19 PM
horizontal rule
190

My guess is that after the Hmong dude killed several people that the Hmong won't be loved, but they'll be bullied less.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 8:19 PM
horizontal rule
191

Or shot more.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 8:20 PM
horizontal rule
192

My guess is that after the Hmong dude killed several people that the Hmong won't be loved, but they'll be bullied less.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 8:20 PM
horizontal rule
193

I hope you did the flag proud, JMQ.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 8:22 PM
horizontal rule
194

190: Well, see, that's what I say about women -- just get a few of them to haul off and shoot some random people in a fast-food joint and the respect quotient will skyrocket. Diane DiMassa agrees with me.


Posted by: minneapolitan | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 8:22 PM
horizontal rule
195

Can someone translate the lyrics to this song?


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 8:22 PM
horizontal rule
196

180: In Taiwan a shoe salesgirl was in awe at the size of my feet -- and you know what that means.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 8:22 PM
horizontal rule
197

Except for those English fuckers, obviously.

The English, the English, the English are best/ I wouldn't give tuppence for all of the rest.


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 8:23 PM
horizontal rule
198

173:We is Legion


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 8:24 PM
horizontal rule
199

It's as if all the white people in the US, and not just slol and Labs, had an agreement that they sure are uptight.

You're not distinguishing among white people. White people in the US have an agreement that Irish are belligerent drunken bottom-feeders, Poles are just stupid, and so on. Hell, I'm adopted, and word is that I have some Polish in me, and I still occasionally elide that in favor of an emphasis on my Scandinavian blood. It comes (for me) from childhood training against the Polish community in my town.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 8:24 PM
horizontal rule
200

Huckmania! Catch it!


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 8:24 PM
horizontal rule
201

I hope you did the flag proud, JMQ.

Judging from the incident with the salaryman who made a pass at me while we were peeing outside a bar, I'd have to assume I did.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 8:25 PM
horizontal rule
202

201: Yeah, baby!


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 8:26 PM
horizontal rule
203

White people in the US have an agreement that Irish are belligerent drunken bottom-feeders,

Lie down in the street next to me here and say that to me face.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 8:27 PM
horizontal rule
204

196- You have big feet.


Posted by: asl | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 8:28 PM
horizontal rule
205

For a Minnesotan.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 8:28 PM
horizontal rule
206

Huckmentum! Looks like Huckabee might sweep tonight. That's kind of a hiccup in the McCain coronation.


Posted by: Wry Cooter | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 8:29 PM
horizontal rule
207

200- Fuck Me!


Posted by: asl | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 8:29 PM
horizontal rule
208

White people in the US have an agreement that Irish are belligerent drunken bottom-feeders,

Actually, I quite like the Irish. They're articulate.


Posted by: minneapolitan | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 8:29 PM
horizontal rule
209

200: Yeah, baby!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 8:30 PM
horizontal rule
210

In Cambodian "Vietnamese woman" is the favored euphemism for "prostitute."


Posted by: Michael Vanderwheel, B.A. | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 8:30 PM
horizontal rule
211

Not especially long, but something like EEE.

Big nose, big feet, big something else. My nose and something else are average to small, but I didn't tell the girls that.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 8:31 PM
horizontal rule
212

The English, the English, the English are best/ I wouldn't give tuppence for all of the rest

Here you go.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 8:31 PM
horizontal rule
213

And let's not forget the Virgin Islands primary!


Posted by: Otto von Bisquick | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 8:31 PM
horizontal rule
214

221: Big shoes.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 8:32 PM
horizontal rule
215

195- That is so not standard Mandarin.


Posted by: asl | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 8:34 PM
horizontal rule
216

Parsimon is of course completely right about this. And you people suck.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 8:34 PM
horizontal rule
217

in awe at the size of my feet -- and you know what that means

In Germany, folk wisdom holds that the size of the nose correlates with the size of the penis ("An der Nases eines Mannes, erkennt man seinen Johannes.")

This puts Sifu's 183 in a different perspective.


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 8:34 PM
horizontal rule
218

Cala is so unworldly.


Where on earth are you from
We're from Eng-a-land
Where do you come from
Do you put the kettle on?


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 8:34 PM
horizontal rule
219

Me and me mum and me dad and me gran
We're off to Waterloo
Me and me mum and me dad and me gran
And a bucket of vindaloo


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 8:36 PM
horizontal rule
220

This white boy is uptight, so Ogged's right there.


Posted by: asl | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 8:38 PM
horizontal rule
221

In Germany, folk wisdom holds that the size of the nose correlates with the size of the penis

An Axis belief, apparently. But in Japan, when people say "your nose is big" (a white person hears this, hana ga takai desu, weirdly frequently), they might be thinking "you're funny-looking" or "you're cute" or even "I suspect that you're hung." Japanese racism would be easier to take if it weren't so fucking inscrutable.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 8:41 PM
horizontal rule
222

An der Nases eines Mannes, erkennt man seinen Johannes.

I think I have this chorale in the John Eliot Gardiner recording of the St Mark Passion.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 8:42 PM
horizontal rule
223

213:Woebama!


Posted by: Sad Vietnamese Prostitute | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 8:42 PM
horizontal rule
224

Japanese racism would be easier to take if it weren't so fucking inscrutable.

Awesome.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 8:43 PM
horizontal rule
225

221- Can you take your pick and react accordingly?


Posted by: asl | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 8:43 PM
horizontal rule
226

"Tall nose" (gao bizi) is a catchphrase for Westerners. It means a high bridge. The first Caucasians in China were Persians, and the name stuck.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 8:44 PM
horizontal rule
227

hana ga takai desu
i think they are genuinely complimenting you saying that
those young japanese and korean are so want to be like the westerners, they do plastics surgeries to make their noses more prominent, eyes - larger, they dye their hair blonde etc
i think we are the last ones to keep our asian pride intact


Posted by: read | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 8:47 PM
horizontal rule
228

An Axis belief, apparently.

Well, it certainly supports a parsimonious psychosexual explanation for both the Holocaust and the Bataan Death March.

And with that, I ban myself.


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 8:47 PM
horizontal rule
229

Na, Chinese too.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 8:48 PM
horizontal rule
230

The first Caucasians in China were Persians

All of the sudden, it's all making sense.


Posted by: asl | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 8:49 PM
horizontal rule
231

"Tall nose" (gao bizi) is a catchphrase for Westerners. It means a high bridge. The first Caucasians in China were Persians, and the name stuck.

Excellent. Ogged is now GaoBizi.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 8:52 PM
horizontal rule
232

those young japanese and korean are so want to be like the westerners, they do plastics surgeries to make their noses more prominent, eyes - larger, they dye their hair blonde etc
i think we are the last ones to keep our asian pride intact

What Emerson said. I don't know about the hair dye, but the plastic surgery side increasingly common among the Chinese.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 8:57 PM
horizontal rule
233

Na, Chinese too
i doubt it, Chinese they are good at compromising, they even change their names! to English ones here, so that it is easier for Americans to pronounce it


Posted by: read | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 8:57 PM
horizontal rule
234

233- read's right. The western look is very popular in China as well.


Posted by: asl | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 8:59 PM
horizontal rule
235

thethethethe, may be i should read again grammar rules about use of the definite articles


Posted by: read | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 9:02 PM
horizontal rule
236

137: Jesus (not you, McQ), PGD, that's a hell of an article. Mark Ames I haven't heard of -- nor the War Nerd for that matter -- and as always with these things, I wonder if that matters.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 02- 9-08 9:23 PM
horizontal rule
237

Big night for Obama last night.

Just based on my friends, more people in Virginia are going with Obama.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 02-10-08 7:48 AM
horizontal rule
238

Just based on my friends, more people in Virginia are going with Obama.

Just based on my friends, there is overwhelming public support for a single-payer healthcare system and legalizing marijuana.


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 02-10-08 7:52 AM
horizontal rule
239

Just based on my kids, there is overwhelming support for dancing like fools to Lenny Kravitz.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 02-10-08 7:58 AM
horizontal rule
240

an informal survey of my cat called New York overwhelmingly for "string," I'm still not sure how I went wrong there


Posted by: felix | Link to this comment | 02-10-08 8:17 AM
horizontal rule
241

Exit polls from my house suggest that Tim Burton musicals are more interesting than anything in Nevada.


Posted by: Sybil Vane | Link to this comment | 02-10-08 8:20 AM
horizontal rule
242

Exit polls from my house suggest that Tim Burton musicals are more interesting than anything in Nevada.

I suspect social desirability bias is skewing the results.


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 02-10-08 9:09 AM
horizontal rule
243

Probable. The toddler is a high self-monitorer.


Posted by: Sybil Vane | Link to this comment | 02-10-08 9:12 AM
horizontal rule
244

"Unattended shopping bag" and "sweatshirt you left on the couch" were cited by the local feline as her top concerns in the 2008 campaign.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 02-10-08 9:16 AM
horizontal rule
245

"Some old shoe" and "anything that moves" were tied for number one with the very, very vocal constituency of my neighbors' dog this morning.


Posted by: Robust McManlyPants | Link to this comment | 02-10-08 2:33 PM
horizontal rule
246

Your neighbor's dog is bisexual?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 02-10-08 2:40 PM
horizontal rule
247

I am a getting much better populist vibe from the econblogs, even such places as Big Picture and Calculated Risk. The lawyer blogs, like LGM and Balkinization, seem to blog as if the economy didn't exist.

And the econoblogs act as if the law and entrenched political power didn't exist.

"Well, we'll have to shut down all these useless industries as soon as the disaster hits. Goodbye highways, hello railroads. Goodbye trucks, hello local agriculture."


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 02-10-08 3:42 PM
horizontal rule
248

The idea that a primary is a better venue for a non-establishment candidate is a complete illusion: looks good on paper, but totally swamped by low information voters following familiar figures.

Ah, but the familiar figure could also be a non-establishment candidate! Like Jesse Ventura, or Silvio Berlusconi!

I dunno. I don't actually think we have a functioning democracy, representative or otherwise, at any level in this country. Even little towns are dominated by powerful long-time residents and/or the few cranks who bother to participate. I'm not quite sure why we're so bloody apathetic (I have a few ideas, and I suspect they'd be similar to stras's), but at this point we're clearly in a closed feedback loop, getting worse. Even if Obama were everything he's cracked up to be, and people got fired up and voted at 65% or something, it wouldn't do shit for vibrancy as a whole.

I'm not sure things ever worked here - maybe the balance was better between informed electorate and the big money boys - but insofar as they ever did, it stopped long, long ago.

I think it would be different if we had a multi-party system with proportional representation. People have no options outside the two parties, neither of which speaks to them. And within the two parties it's impossible to use the media to detect what the difference is between the candidates, since they are supposedly pledged to the same basic policies, so that ends up being based on demographic factors.

John Edwards spent four straight years campaigning on the significance of poverty and instability among underrepresented and underprivileged groups, and on how the rich should maybe stop being given all the breaks at the expense of the poor, and the only demographics he ended up winning were the relatively conservative white males. He was lucky just to have had an impact on the other candidates' platforms.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 02-10-08 4:01 PM
horizontal rule
249

I am impressed with the Obama organization. I went to check my mail and there were Obama leaflets in the mail room of my large apartment building. Nothing from th Clinton organization. In and around Arlington, VA I have seen few signs for Clinton and many for Obama. OTOH, I have seen tons of signs for Ron Paul.

I figure that Obama will take Arlington County, and Alexandria City in the VA primary.


Posted by: md 20/400 | Link to this comment | 02-10-08 6:56 PM
horizontal rule