I skipped a presidential administration and a half in between relationships, but I recall my last boyfriend's friends as being awkward, at best. The guys all looked at me in "that way," and the girls all looked at me in the other, because I was dating their adoptive puppy "just friend." Of course, that was college, and we were all dumb fucks.
Fast forward to now, and in my late twenties and his friends in their thirties, things are actually sociable and civil. At least, there's things to talk about, now that after college we've all acquired enough human and social capital to have something to talk about. I have to resist the urge to ask weird questions about what superpower they'd rather have, but I have learned that saying "oh, that's interesting" when they tell me about their work is the way to keep the conversation going, albeit in a boring way.
Oh and dude, I so owe you an email. I have been moving and I am but a lowly student. I'll do that right now.
how have y'all managed with a new date's friends?
Seems rude to manage with them with the date sitting right there, but hey, if she's game.
I'm petulant enough to sit in silence next to someone that I'm resentful I'm being forced to socialize with.
Kinda like bpl's current ex?
Okay, but seriously, this shouldn't be that hard. You can talk a little bit about the person you have in common (your date), preferably in a little bit of a joking vein--"so, tell me so-and-so's secrets." Generally a good ice-breaker and a nice test of mental whateverness. You can talk about whatever's at hand--the music, bars in general, etc. For the next year, you've got the damn election to talk about, for heaven's sake. In the bay area, there's the "so where are you from" question.
My favorite is always to bond with the friends by teasing the date, though. Works a charm.
Also, anyone who *can't* talk to the friends of the person they're dating is a bad dating prospect. Jeez, Ogged.
I have to say, Oggleboggle, that I admire you for having the strength to use awkwardness as a weapon. The dude has it coming and you should make him cry. Ask for his advice about extravagant sex.
5-- see, B and I agree. "So, the first time we did anal..."
A new date's friends? I steadily and relentlessly befriend them, so that if we break up, they are all bummed to lose me.
A new date's ex? I've been in that situation enough to have a lot of empathy for her. I don't force myself on them.
9: Then why are you asking the question in this post, you freak?
Anyway. BPL's ex totally deserved you to be mean to him by shaking his hand. And later blogging his bad behavior.
11: He probably just wanted the excuse to post "I can't believe you were stupid enough to invite him." That's hilarious.
I always get along famously with my dates' friends. In fact, I usually get along better with his friends than I do with him. This creates a different sort of problem.
If anything, BPL's ex should have said "I'm hurt you invited him." That might have some chance of having his desired effect.
Having had messy breakups in which I had to say goodbye to his parents, his little brother and then split up mutual friends, and even the family dog, I no longer want to be _that_ integrated into my SO's life unless we are really in it for the long-haul and have already made some sort of life-long commitment, so why the hell not.
I am friendly with the SO's friends, but I do not exhange numbers or emails unless it is natural to do so. I don't hang out with them without the SO either. They're his friends first, and I am not one to purposefully divide loyalties, even if I could get them to go my way.
If they happen to like me better, cool, but it says something if you meet the SO's friends and think that they are so much better than your SO, that's another relationship issue.
Meh, on second read-through, I realize Ogged isn't asking for advice, he's just playing the "anecdote followed by "share your experiences"" game.
I've always gotten along great with the friends of the folks I've dated.
About 10 months after BR and I started dating, my ex-fiancee got married. BR and I brought her kids to the wedding. (They were/are like my own kids.)
The second we got there, BR went back with my ex and her sisters and helped my ex get ready. They got along fabulously. (Later, we hosted a baby shower for the now-married couple.)
The ex's sister and BR are now really good friends.
As far as me, at the wedding, a groomsman came over to me and told me that he wanted to take me outside and kick my ass. I laughed at him and his friends pulled him away.
I should mention that my crazy ex-wife's parents LOVE BR also.
Hey will, ex-fiance is separate from ex-wife, I'm assuming. How did you come to decide to separate from your ex-wife? I'm pointedly curious in ways that would generalize to my brother.
Yeah, HG, your bro/SIL situation is similar to mine.
I avoid this problem by only dating women who have no friends.
20:
It was a long time coming. The breaking point came when she woke me up to scream at me about nothing in particular and then told me her parents were coming over. (Around 1 am.)
Email me
but, yes, heebie ex-fiancee and ex-wife are different. ex-fiancee is a still a very close friend.
There was one friend of an ex who was apparently pissed off that we'd got together, because he'd "seen me first"! (Yeah, this was a while ago, but not actually kindergarten.) I had indeed met him first, and I hadn't liked him then, so that didn't endear him further. We never got on. Most of that ex's friends I got on very well with and enjoyed doubling my social circle in one swift move. Not that we stayed friends afterwards. Especially not when I got married 6 months later.
C's friends were all weirdos and he's appalling at staying in touch with people, so he (basically - not in a cold-hearted fashion) dumped them and adopted mine. Who were all rather suspicious as they'd loved the above-mentioned boyfriend, but came round.
I steadily and relentlessly befriend them, so that if we break up, they are all bummed to lose me
... and keep telling her how great a guy I am.
I've usually been in either ski-bum circles (talk about mountains) or academic circles (talk about work). Either way, it's easy to charm everyone.
Really, it's worthwhile to befriend them. It's often kindof a dick move to become better friends with them than SO is. Of course, sometime you want to pull a dick move.
I very much want the friends to like me. I work at endearing myself.
Of course, sometime you want to pull a dick move.
On your date's friends? See 'smasher's 4.
I think a boyfriend's friends are really the ideal new social circle, more so than new-colleagues or new-schoolmates or new-activity-partners or whatever. You're pre-vetted and -approved, most of them already only know the nicest things about you (bc of BF's bragging), none of them are trying to fuck you (which takes so much of the pressure out of friendship-making) though they aren't writing you off as asexual, and everyone is predisposed to treating you nicely as long as you make BF happy. It's the most intrinsically pleasant new social situation I can imagine.
27: this is true. I do want to be liked and befriended to the point where they ask "us" to hang out on future occasions.
I refrain from becoming BFF out of respect for the SO's boundaries and because I am never that optimistic about relationships, even when they go well.
He probably just wanted the excuse to post "I can't believe you were stupid enough to invite him." That's hilarious.
Truly hilarious. I laughed, and I was just then fuming after a spat with my wife.
It was also kind of funny because you're in your mid-30s, right?, so I imagine bpl and her pals being around that age, and then here's this guy who's like 14. Scram, kid.
none of them are trying to fuck you
And more importantly, none of them think you're trying to fuck them. When making cross-gender friendships, having a BF to point to is really socially lubricating.
I love my friendss wives. It is a fabulous situation where everyone knows there is no fucking on the horizon. Plus, my friends have great wives.
And quite frankly, they are really good at determining which women are good for me.
She said she wasn't bothered if I wasn't bothered
i don't know, sure i wish you only good and all
but imagine yourself in his place and her saying that about you
i don't understand why she needs to invite both of you
sorry sorry sorry i know i'm terribly rude
as for me i always kept the friends' circles separate
even my own friends sometimes hardly know each other
I presume she's not actively inviting this guy anymore, but he is still always showing up?
Read, I'm with you. I used to think it was cute for everyone to get along and be friends.
But, again, having been on the other side of that a fair amount, I now think it is kinda childish for the fulcrum person to insist on ex and new spending time together. How much attention does that person need?
(Yes, yes. The ex has primary responsibility for managing her feelings and the situations she is willing to put herself in. But. It sucks to be surprised and confronted with the reality of it.)
It was his band they went to see. Of course Ogged knew he'd be there.
Read the post. The ex was in the band that was playing. Ogged's bpl went to see the band, and brought Ogged, her new guy, along. Which makes perfect sense, since presumably everyone at the bar was basically a fairly big part of her circle of friends. What's she going to do, just never bring Ogged to anything?
Man, you sound like a real peach.
Luckily, I got through this stage when I was young and energetic. And I actually cared about other people enough to try to figure out what they cared about.
Now that I'm a burned out old man, I just spent a night at a school even looking glumly at other fathers I know unable to think of anything worth talking about.
It's not all that outrageous to expect grownups to behave like grownups.
At some point she has to bring Ogged. It is ok to give him some space at first, but Ogged and bpl have been together for a long time now.
Oh so this guy is not as pathetic as I thought.
Maybe his head-in-hands routine is how he usually gets girls. Different guys in bands have different personæ, but they all get girls, ogged.
I feel sorry for ex, I admit it. Primarily because I have a good friend (and former boyfriend) who tends to act just that way while feeling horribly ashamed and unable to help himself. (And there certainly have been a couple of awkward good-friend-meets-current-item scenes, but not for many years)
Separate social circles, though. Gives you something to talk about and some low-stakes gossip/being-ruthlessly-judgmental material. Also, it's great not to have to like people, and you don't have to judge significant other on his/her choice of friends. And the squares will think you're some kind of keee-razy swinging bohemian if you "allow" your boyfriend to spend time with his friends without you, particularly if his friends include single people-of-whichever-gender-is-attractive-to-your-boyfriend. At least out here in the great plains, this is apparently a marker of incredible counterculturality.
On the other hand, I do like very much being friends with significant others' exes and my various exes' significant others. It makes me feel charming and generous.
ok then
but if her ex would be all cheerful and friendly i would think he's a robot or something
so it's a natural reaction and just have to wait to become friends with him and the band may be
if i were you i would just refuse to attend the show
but that's me and it's not right of course
Generosity towards other men is a lethal weapon in trained hands.
I admire you for having the strength to use awkwardness as a weapon
Please don't propagate this strategy. I have enough trouble dealing right now with some passive-aggressive grad students who see this as their main interactive/intellectual weapon in life.
I don't mind at all when people I've started dating run into my exes, usually. They tend to respect each other, at least. But my exes tend to stay friends with me until the moment they start dating someone new, when they will do just about anything they can to prevent us from meeting, including cutting off all contact with me. They tend to blame the new GF, who is just way too jealous to tolerate my friendship with the BF, but when I suggest fixing it by introducing us, it's rejected.
The thing is, I like my exes' new GFs, as long as they're kind to the exes. And I'm not intimidating; they usually go on to date much hotter and more charming women than me. What I suspect (and it's been suggested by a few) is that a dude can't tolerate the possibility that New GF and Old GF might have a conversation about him. Is that what's happening here?
What I suspect (and it's been suggested by a few) is that a dude can't tolerate the possibility that New GF and Old GF might have a conversation about him. Is that what's happening here?
Yes.
I tend to always get along with the friends of a new girlfriend, probably helped a lot by the reasons in AWB's 29. There's not much reason you shouldn't, unless the friends are part of a group that are just difficult to get along with (most recent ex had a group of not-so-close friends who were all consultants or marketing workers and the such, but just really really boring).
Making exes cry may be a worthy endeavour if they're jerks, but I've never actually been introduced to them. I'm just the ex that gets to meet the new boyfriends, but I rarely meet the old ones. Except for that one time I was roommates with the ex-boyfriend. And almost made him cry. That was a strained roommate relationship.
but if her ex would be all cheerful and friendly i would think he's a robot or something
I think that's the idea: he's supposed to behave like a robot. Since he's not, if I were him, given that he's upset, I'd ask bpl not to bring the new boyfriend to gigs, and if she protests, I'd ask her not to come to gigs either. But this depends a great deal on the nature of their past relationship and breakup.
And it depends even more on the nature of their extended circle of friends: I've certainly dated and broken up with someone in my extended circle, and it would have been absurd to insist that we never be at the same events thereafter.
47: You know, I never really considered that, because I would never have that type of conversation...whether the creepy "and he's soooo ticklish!" type or the "and it's so annoying when he leaves all the library books under the bed" type. Too sordid.
Mostly my exes go on to date people very much like me but more feminine and nurturing. This makes me feel validated, since they're just like me except with characteristics I don't really want to have. I was particularly gratified that the Handsome Musician Ex dated a series of fat chicks and then married one of them, thus proving that he actually thought I was cute.
bpl needs to look before she leaps. Beware the Oriental fantasy.
Bpl is in a tough position, but her ex needs to grow up.
Usually I've managed find with a new date's friends. In most cases this was because I tended to date within my social circle or just on the edges of it, so everyone already knew everyone.
The times where it's been awkward have been not with the date's current friends, but his old friends. E.g., the college boyfriend's high school friends. who not only were likely to have less in common with me, but were likely to be from a time of his life where he wasn't the same person who I was dating. This has been true also of meeting the high school buddies or post-college buddies of a college buddy.
if her ex would be all cheerful and friendly i would think he's a robot or something
Nah, that should only be the case if it was a really rough breakup initiated by her. After mutual breakups, or if he breaks up first, he should really be at peace with his decision and willing to suck it up even if she moves on first.
47: I have no such fears at the moment, but I may stop introducing exes if any more situations happen like when I had a party attended by a sort-of ex (we really liked each other, saw each other as often as possible, but things were just never settled enough for us to actually date). Later, upon my mentioning the sort-of exes brother as "M's brother", then-girlfriend put the names together and went "M? Is that the girl you used to fuck?" with some real vitriol at the end. She did not take my cheerful "Yeah, why?" very well.
This has been true also of meeting the high school buddies or post-college buddies of a college buddy.
Cala, this could be its own discussion. When the person you knew in college isn't quite the same as the person who's working now, do you find that your old self and your buddy's old self are able to remain friends--even if you don't all hang out together?
From Texas, I once sent an ex, who was a grad student at Berkeley, up to meet a different ex, who lived in northern Cali in Arcata, to purchase pot. I couldn't believe that they didn't find the transaction incredibly awkward, but hey. Some people really love the hell out of pot.
You should have just said "Ex 1, go see this gay guy in Arcata to get pot". And "Hey Ex 2, I told this gay guy from Berkeley to get pot from you."
55: In most cases I only see my college friends at other college friends' weddings, so it's enough of an artificial party atmosphere that we all act as though we're still in college, with nothing having changed except everyone being a little fatter and some kids. Were I to see them more often, I think the changes would be harder to deal with.
(Even good changes: my best college friend used to call me for advice about his love life, including a couple of midnight sobbing phone calls when [Evil Girl] broke his heart. He's married now. That role I used to fill no longer exists.)
Then they'd be like, "Why'd Heebie date all these gay guys?"
54.2: No, no. You have to collect those momens, because they make great stories later. My boyfriend has a ton of those stories, and it's fun to joke around about them, e.g., him: "I had dinner with A last weekend." Me: "A? Is that the girl you used to fuck?" Him: "Used to?" Etc. Serious entertainment.
Petulant McEmo makes me wonder about bpl's taste in men.
For myself, my girlfriend has some pretty strange internet friends but otherwise thumbs up.
I did have an ex implement a pretty serious friend stealing scenario, that was annoying. But she was particularly scheming, and I'm better off rid of those friends.
I did have an ex implement a pretty serious friend stealing scenario, that was annoying.
She needed a kidney tx or something?
I'll confess that I think I hugged Sifu's gf once. If I didnt actuall hug her, I wanted to hug her.
You mean you hugged her in your heart?!? That's much worse.
61: that is a very awesome name. I am going to start calling guys I know that.
I tried to get Heebie to grab sifu's gf's butt, but heebie got soft on me.
He hugged her, and then he photographed her.
62: psychologically, pretty much yeah.
66: heebie missed out.
I misread "Petulant McEmo" as "Petulant McElmo."
"Petulant McElmo want 'ooty! Why Elmo no have 'ooty?"
He hugged her, and then he photographed her.
And she liked it, sifu! Go cry into your water now!
Petulant McEmo makes me wonder about bpl's taste in men.
I don't know about that, but it does seem weird to me that the ex- and the new boyfriend would be brought together in full knowledge that the ex would be pretty upset. But who knows, maybe the ex-relationship was totally a passing thing that the ex should really not be emoting so over. Hard to say.
good point parsimon. Maybe she brought Ogged to give a clear signal to someone who had not gotten the prior signals.
Him: "Used to?"
Unfortunately, M now has a boyfriend, so I can't use this response. And B, that joking is only fun if the person you're joking with doesn't hate you later!
joking is only fun if the person you're joking with doesn't hate you later!
If she doesn't laugh, it was never meant to be, Po-Mo.
If she doesn't laugh hate you later, it was never meant to be, Po-Mo.
Mostly my exes go on to date people very much like me but more feminine and nurturing.
For some reason I was thinking this was written by a guy, and thought it was funny (and good). But I'm glad that it works out well for Frowner anyway.
I've never had to interact with any of my wife's exes (except for her HS ex, who barely counts 20 yrs later, and besides, she's really close to his wife; and except for our wedding reception, where I was civil to her final ex for 5 minutes). But I've said a number of uncharitable things about them to her, largely because they didn't appreciate her enough (why they're exes, obvs.), but also, frankly, b/c my Bad Old GF was the immediate ex in my past, and she made our lives occasionally miserable for probably 6 months. That gave my now-wife plenty of room to bitch about the Bad Old GF, and while I readily agreed, I still wanted a little giveback.
I gave up nearly all the joint friends in the Bad Old GF breakup, so I was plenty ready to make new friends. Wife-to-be was newish to town, so these weren't her oldest friends, which probably helped. Also, we're in allied fields, so there was plenty of commonality. My wife was very generous about being friendly with 2 women, the one I had the decade-long near-miss with, and the one that I was trying but failing to hook up with immediately before I met wife-to-be &mdash the latter was a semi-regular solo dinner guest after we married.
75: Maybe so, will. Or maybe it's mean. Hard to say!
the ex- and the new boyfriend would be brought together in full knowledge that the ex would be pretty upset.
I don't see why. A girl oughta be able to bring her new squeeze out sometimes with her old friends.
Plus, He's her *ex*. It's no longer her job to pander to his little emotional dramas.
It's no longer her job to pander to his little emotional dramas.
Damn straight. She's either actually friends with him now or what the hell is she spending time with him for? A girlfriend of mine has been haunted by a her stupid, emotionally abusive ex for like a year, until recently when it dawned on her that she would never put up with a friend who treated her that way.
82:
You should give an ex a little time and space. People have emotions that are not rational.
78: No, the response that lets me know it was meant to be is "Huh, so that's M? Nice rack." Because thinking alike is the true measure of compatibility.
But it's a moot point really, my exes just never meet each other. I don't really date within circles of friends, and they all seem to live in different places and know entirely different people. Makes life easier after breakups, lemme tell ya.
Also it's no longer her job to drammer to his emotional pandas.
One of my exes emailed me out of the blue after a year the other day. Very weird. We sort of broke up, I thought, when we realized that we made each other miserable and that we had basically nothing in common. Do I want to hang out?, he asks. I haven't given a definitive answer, but I can't possibly imagine what he wants to *do*. We didn't like doing any of the same things, except fucking, and I don't even think he liked fucking all that much.
No, the response that lets me know it was meant to be is "Huh, so that's M? Nice rack."
Wow. I'm no longer a crazy jealous person like I was in my early twenties, but I'd have a hard time saying something like this. If he agreed, I'd have tormented visuals of them having sex together.
84: Well, of course. But come on; the behavior described is obnoxious. And this isn't a sitch where she dragged O to the guy's bday party or something; they went to see a band that some of her friends are in, and one of the folks in the band is the ex.
It's a situation where Whiny McEmo basically wans his ex not to hang with her friends (the other folks in the band) because he's being whiny--or actually, as the "why'd you have to bring him?" thing suggests--he *wants* her to hang with them, only without bringing her new guy. He's being petulant and manipulative about her bringing someone new into the group, and he shouldn't be coddled about it.
Oh, I'm totally with Po-Mo on that one. Lusting after the same chicks is the only way I can stand dating someone. If we don't share at least some tastes in other boys and/or girls, I have a hard time tolerating a relationship.
Torment meaning good or hot?
Well, for them.
Did I mention that I had two exes at my birthday party? They wanted a picture with BR. A fourth couldnt make it.
But, you still should give your exes the curtesty of a little time to heal before you expect them to be happy around the new love interest.
Further to 92, not that we actually have to screw around with other people, but we have to at least respect some of one another's lustations, or then I actually do get jealous.
56: heebie just gets better and better.
91:
Oh, I think that the ex has had enough time to get over it.
I think Parsimon nailed it. BPL used Ogged to give the clear signal that she wasnt interested. The whiny ex hadnt quite grasped it yet.
96: why thank you! Imagine how great I'll be at 40.
92, 95: You always want to avoid the problem where you meet the new boyfriend/girlfriend, look them up and down quickly, and have to call upon all the forces of restraint to not turn to your ex and say "Really?". Hopefully the new person is really smart or nice or something, but dating the sort of girls who just want to date someone and will take the next person who comes along can be really depressing when you meet their other guys.
Hopefully the new person is really smart or nice or something, but dating the sort of girls who just want to date someone and will take the next person who comes along can be really depressing when you meet their other guys.
A problem that can be avoided by not breaking up with them.
What does "bpl" stand for?
I thought Ogged comes off as a bit of a jerk in this post tho. Isn't the ability to get along with their friends like a basic sign of being a good boy/girlfriend?
I've moved a lot in the last couple of years and been a little too dependent on girlfriends friends to build up a social circle in a new city. When you combine that with a tendency to flip through girlfriends pretty quickly over the last couple of years, that doesn't work.
The idea of being somebody's social sidekick still feels sort of fun and romantic to me though, much better than hiving off as an isolated couple.
100: Yeah, I am definitely a lot happier when my exes go on to date gorgeous, charming, brilliant women, because it raises my stock. I get zero vanity-stroking from seeing an ex with an ugly stupid mean chick.
But also, even while you're dating, checking out chicks together can be fun if you like the same sorts of chicks. It's really not fun to watch your boyfriend ogle some girl you can't understand his attraction for. Of course, my attractions to women have probably been broadened a lot by my bf's attractions to women.
94: Something like 8 of my eldest brother's exes were at my father's funeral. Seriously. His girlfriend when he was 15, his senior prom date, the woman he was off-and-on with for 15 years, on and on. It cracked us up.
That role I used to fill no longer exists.
Not really on-topic, but my oldest friend, whom for ~20 years I described as basically being my big brother (he's my big sister's age, and was a regular at Thanksgiving for a decade or so, among other things), has dropped more or less completely out of my life (I think my sister's as well) since he (finally) found a woman to be serious with. At first she met everyone, and was nice, and they'd come around together. Then, his beloved mother died, and he didn't turn to us for comfort - he had her. I actually don't think I've seen him since then.
What does "bpl" stand for?
Bass-playing lifeguard.
105:
How many was he sleeping with at the time?
In all seriousness, that tells you something nice about your brother.
I was riding in a car with a guy I was boinking, and we were dropping off a couple of other fellows. The one other guy, who was gay, was a sometime-lover of the guy I was hooking up with, and he was really nice. But the other guy, whom I had read as completely straight, was being all snide and asking whether we were going to get the condoms soon and stuff. I still can't figure out whether this was because he was another fairly-straight-presenting guy who had had sex with the fellow I was shtuping, or whether he was just on some homophobic trip. He apologized the next time he saw me though, but it was sure weird.
I am always nice to exes, exes new bf/gf, friends of exes, etc. etc. Why wouldn't you be? All of that possessive stuff is soooo patriarchal and fucked up.
Have I mentioned that the Bad Old GF started dating a guy before I moved out? We (she) had decided we needed to break up, and that I should move out, but didn't actually kick me out - there was a 6 week transition. During which she started dating this guy, staying at his place, etc. (not fucking, according to her). But anyway: she never told me they were dating. But she would try to get us together - "Oh, come to brunch with my sister and G."
And, of course, he turned out to be a psycho, manipulative prick, so, yes, she'd call me to complain about him. While I was with wife-to-be.
Sheesh.
Contrary to the overwhelming display of emotional maturity around here, I think I'm much more the cheerfully-kill-any-exes-that-show-up sort of a person.
I think Parsimon nailed it. BPL used Ogged to give the clear signal that she wasnt interested. The whiny ex hadnt quite grasped it yet.
No no, they play with the same bands. If I go see/support her, there's a chance he'll be there. In fact, I haven't gone since that last post in December and only dropped in last night for an hour, but still got the mental breakdown response. Dude needs to grow up.
Is bpl also a lifeguard, or am I misremembering my Unfogged arcana?
111: That story sounds creepily familiar. It didn't happen to me, but I'm sure I've heard at least one person relate an almost identical anecdote. I guess there's some cases where I could see that working, but mostly it's not ever going to play out real well in this society.
I think I'm much more the cheerfully-kill-any-exes-that-show-up sort of a person.
This is... unsurprising.
I avoid this problem by only dating women who have no friends.
I avoid this problem and many others by not dating at all.
So, ogged, which is better, bpl's band or bpl's ex's band?
113 obviates the question in 118, I guess.
And, to note, in the past I've gotten along well with the current's exes, but I don't respond well to emotional manipulation, or to massive wussiness.
That's kind of cool, somehow, that she's a swimming base player. Anyway, glad it's working out.
The guy's being an ass, but I've been that ass, so I feel a certain sympathy. Especially if they've done the break up-get back together-break up dance in the past.
"Petulant McElmo." AKA "Tickle Me Emo."
I avoid this problem by only dating women who have no friends.
I dated a woman without any friends once. She was smart and attractive--she just didn't have any friends, only exes. She didn't particularly care for my friends and the feeling was mutual, so that didn't last long. Which is to say that relationships with those kind of people usually end in disaster, too.
Especially if they've done the break up-get back together-break up dance in the past.
They haven't. They dated for a year and she broke it off in October.
115: Or any society, really. I was very glad that this guy was being nice to her and hanging out with her - part of the reason I didn't move out sooner was that I was enjoying having our awesome apt. to myself much more often. And, even though he was an asshole, I'm still thrilled that the attention he paid her was the kick in the pants she needed to dump my ass. But none of that means that I wanted her to lie to me or try to trick me into being buddies with this guy (who, of course, was giving me all sorts of funny vibes - he knew what the deal was).
The best part was that her behavior in this aspect was so clearly shitty that I was really off the hook for being anything more than civil.
Jesus. I just remembered that, for complicated reasons, I had to ride across PA with them in her car. Cripes, what a shitty trip.
Something like 8 of my eldest brother's exes were at my father's funeral.
A couple of my friends got married with several exes in attendance (separate weddings, I think at least four exes at each). It's nice to see people who get along so well with their exes, but I think you're missing something if you don't have one or two you totally hate.
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I can think of two songs that are the perfect song to end any rock mixtape. Fortunately it is not impossible to decide between them, because one has a female singer and one has a male.
But really, they do have the identically same qualifications for that position, are the same length, are both from 1994 and from albums that got some 120 Minutes play. But using both would really be dumb.
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I don't respond well to emotional manipulation, or to massive wussiness.
I doubt he cares, unless you're back down to a size 2. The issue is how she responds to the same. But it's hard for me to imagine a bpl who falls for it. Eh, as problems go, this one falls right in there with "people hate me because I'm beautiful." Sure, it can, in fact, be a problem, but it's not the worst one to have.
I've sort of realized recently that if a woman is a social type with lots of friends and contacts, a big circle, that is a big romantic plus for me. I'm pretty sociable but also a little too moody to get out as much as I would like to, so a kick in the pants to circulate more is just what I need. I sort of like a stronger personality who does something to set the social agenda for the relationship. I'll cook dinner and be all host-y if she organizes the crowd.
But she has to be willing to gossip about all her friends and dissect their personalities.
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I can't believe Polaroid is discontinuing their film. I don't know why this is hitting me so hard, but it really seems wrong, like it was one of those things we'd have forever.
I want to know what the very last Polaroid photo will be.
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I think you're missing the point, Tim. The point is that it makes for a good blog anecdote.
I want to know what the very last Polaroid photo will be.
Great thought.
129: before the days of digital cameras Polaroids were the only choice for taking pervy dirty pictures. Unless you wanted the high school students down at the Photo Hut all up in your business.
PGD, it keeps occurring to me that you're a lot like my ex. Max was the same way---he had a few people close to him, but he loved hosting parties for my friends, talking about my friends, being introduced to my friends. And he seems to have always been with women like me with a large circle of friends available for parties. Partially, he seemed to like it for the social opportunities it offered him in the vein of my 29, but it also made him value me more to think of me as someone socially in demand (whether I actually was or not). Does that make sense?
133 to 128, but, uh, yeah, also to 132 I guess.
I'm not understanding this story. Are BPL and her ex are in the same band? Or are they in different bands?
"Play with the same bands" suggests a sort of musical chairs, usually involving one or both of them, but in bands related enough to one another that they play on the same lineups?
the high school students down at the Photo Hut all up in your business.
There's a clever little song by Ian Anderson about family photos forgotten, but still remembered by the man in the photoshop. Recent song, but a dying phenomenon.
More or less the only girl I ever picked up worked in a photoshop. Cute, a year older, interesting. Got back with her ex the day after she and I spent a couple hours on the phone. Sigh.
I'm sad to report, Walt Someguy, that from all appearances BPL seems to be in a reggae-funk jam band. And you know how those people collaborate.
Did she give good phone, JRoth?
I think that the band is so bad that ogged has split them in his mind - the terrible band that the ex plays in, and the merely bad band that she plays in. The mind's need to protect itself is a powerful thing.
139: It was an amazing conversation. It might have been 4 hours, now that I think about it. Occasionally flirtatious, but innocent.
I'm checking classmates.com right now.
I want to know what the very last Polaroid photo will be.
Buy a camera. Wait. Make it one of your choosing.
142: IT WILL BE OF MY OWN DEATH.
The picture will keep getting older and you'll stay the same age.
This is what PostSecret has all been leading up to.
133: weelll...sort of makes sense. But I wouldn't say that I value people more because they are "socially in demand", that's sort of high school-ish. Lots of things can make someone socially in demand. A whole lot depends on the quality of the people they attract and how they do it. There can be very social people who I'm incompatible with because I find their friends very boring.
It's more that there's an active need I have to be socially engaged (basically, I can be a little depressive and moody, and sociability pulls me out), and being pulled along in another person's slipstream helps me do it more than I can on my own. Once I am out I'm lively and engaged and happy and make the proper contributions.
I was talking with my Mom about this -- we're very tempermentally similiar -- and she said she always needed a spouse who had their own thing going, was a strong emotional center of gravity, so the tone of the relationship was set more by their moods than by hers. That resonated with me.
129: Aww, crap. I have a polaroid camera lying around, and only a couple more film refills. I should grab some, or else I'll never get that shoebox full of random friend pictures.
Boo to digital photos. I can never remember to take them or upload them.
You kinda crapped on your own joke there.
Yeah, Polaroid shots are special. My roommates in Cleveland had one of those cheapy JoyCams that you could make half-size Polaroids with, and we ended up with an incredible collection of photos you'd never get on digital. Some of them are crap, but they really capture these little unplanned moments. I still have a ton of those little photos as mementos.
before the days of digital cameras Polaroids were the only choice for taking pervy dirty pictures
This reminds of a funny Armstrong & Miller bit on the perils of reusing home-porn technology. Someone here, maybe mrh, introduced me to A&M; to whomever it was, my thanks. Their RAF sketches just kill me.
151: I'm going to pretend that didn't happen. I think I should go to sleep now.
However: The Polaroid was the youtube of its day.* Discuss. Or not.
*Actually, there's a bit in The Last Hurrah that almost, but ultimately does not, set up this parallel with respect to political campaigns.
I had a long-distance girlfriend once who's ex was the "make friends with my exes new boyfriends" type, so he always went out his way to be friendly with me. I always found it a little weird, but he was perfectly nice to me, so I went along with it. Finally, my girlfriend pressured me to move to her city; after three weeks we broke up acrimoniously. Shortly thereafter, her ex-boyfriend and I hung out and bitched about our mutual ex for several hours. It was awesome. He looked like apostropher, so I think of this story every time I see a picture of apo.
153: Those RAF sketches are fucking hilarious. Killing me. Thanks!
To go back to the post - give the poor guy a break. Sure he acted like a pathetic asshole, but if this was at least a moderately serious relationship, and he got dumped, who hasn't? I'm getting cringeworthy flashbacks to a party where I was in that situation - I was miserable and showed it in spite of the enthusiastic attempts of a friend of hers to console me. BTW, does this actually mean that ogged is getting laid? I thought he had de facto adopted the Emerson policy.
At my wedding were two men I'd seriously dated, one I'd drunkenly hooked up with once, and two that had lusted after me in high school. To shivbunny's credit, only the most recent ex bothered him at all. (He insists he wouldn't like him in any event.)
The late update from bpl is that before moping at the bar, Petulant McEmo went outside and threw things and basically had a fit. This is the kind of unstable behavior that makes me start thinking that people need to be rubbed out for my peace of mind, a reaction I'm announcing here to keep myself from dwelling upon.
More to the point, bpl has told the band that she won't play with him anymore, so this should keep the problem from arising again. Until he snaps and kills us.
I shouldn't have him killed, right?
It disturbs me how much I think like Dick Cheney.
You shouldn't have him killed, but you inquire as to whether he's graduated to big boy pull-ups.
At first she met everyone, and was nice, and they'd come around together. Then, his beloved mother died, and he didn't turn to us for comfort - he had her. I actually don't think I've seen him since then.
I would bet you anything that the reason you haven't seen him since then is precisely because his mother died -- not because he has a loving wife.
161: Wait, how old are these people? I've been assuming all in the thirties.
One of my groomsmen was my high school girlfriend. She wore a sexy girl tux.
people need to be rubbed out rub one out for my peace of mind,
A better solution than killing him. Just send him the link to that dwarf-with-the-baby-rattle porn video or something. Problem solved.
I shouldn't have him killed, right?
See, my approach in 112 now seems more sensible.
Here's a conversation I had 10 minutes ago:
Person: Man, I don't want to get old.
Me: Who really wants to get old?
P: I know. It's depressing.
[pause]
P: That and Maureen Dowd. I fucking hate her.
Wait, how old are these people? I've been assuming all in the thirties.
Right.
DS, you're a genius.
Apparently he's from Vermont and has hippie parents. That pretty much explains everything.
went outside and threw things and basically had a fit.
What's disturbing is that this story makes you think about killing him rather than laughing like a hyena. Where is your joie de vivre?
It was actually Martin Luther King's idea, originally. But thanks.
Where is your joie de vivre?
Imagining ogged as one of the oldsters in the last scene of Coffee and Cigarettes is, like, so meet.
This is the kind of unstable behavior that makes me start thinking that people need to be rubbed out for my peace of mind,
oh, good, I'm not the only one with caveman instincts.
of course, what it takes to cause you to go to your caveman instincts is less than what it takes me. Face it, Ogged, you're a serial killer on the inside. You and w-lfs-n.
Face it, Ogged, you're a serial killer on the inside
You can take the boy out of Iran...
She should avoid him for a month or three. After that he'll either not want anymore contact with her or he'll be fine. I was happily hanging out with my ex and her new bf a few months after acting pathetic. We're still close friends sixteen years and many bf's and gf's later.
I shouldn't have him killed, right?
Yield to your swarthiness and shank that dude.
Hippies never grow up, they just continue to emote.
re: 129
One of the photographers at my day job is about to give me a load of black and white polaroid film. Theres boxes and boxes of it. So, now, of course, I have to buy a polaroid camera so I can use it.
It is a shame it's being discontinued.
if you ever decide you've got toomuch black-and-white polaroid film, ttaM...
also, ogged, you don't need to have him killed, because this particular type of emo bullshit acting out is the province of the total pussy who isn't going to do anything.
Whatever. He's probably going to wait until Ogged's back is turned, then strangle him with a fair trade diversity scarf.
re: 183
Heh. I don't know exactly how much he's got. I'll ask.
I shouldn't have him killed, right?
OK, I read this three times as "I shouldn't have killed him, right?" before I noticed there was anything wrong.
I find this story a little odd, because surely most people date within their own circle from puberty to early twenties, at least, so the sight of last week's beloved on the arm of one of your mates is the rule rather than the exception. Obviously this happens less as you get older and meet more people, but you ought to be inured to it by then.
Contrary to the overwhelming display of emotional maturity around here, I think I'm much more the cheerfully-kill-any-exes-that-show-up sort of a person.
Oh well, if the question is about exes, then I always hate my new boyfriends' exgirlfriends. It's only been the Harry Potter films that have made me be able to look at David Thewlis, because when I was with the one before I got married, called Johnny, he had an ex called Sophie, and DT was in Naked as a character called Johnny who had some sort of relationship with someone called Sophie. I didn't see the film, just read an interview with DT and hated him from then on. That's quite irrational. I'd try to avoid giving anyone the satisfaction of *seeing* how bothered I was though.
It disturbs me how much I think like Dick Cheney.
Komiteh!
It's never bothered me meeting exes' new partners. Unless the new partner has played some sort of a role in the process whereby the ex became an ex. In which case, I do want to kill them.
My high-school girlfriend and 'big love' [at least until I was in my early/mid 20s] is married to another high-school friend of mine. Didn't bother me in the slightest, in fact, they are very well suited and extremely happy, which is good for both.
it seems Ogged is actually enjoying all the drama
it's life, the last update i can get
that her ex had a fit and all, if he was like indifferent it'd be kinda strange as if the bpl does not induce that much feelings in whoever including Ogged, she is of course worth two of you fighting to death! :)
all the best to a new couple, just enjoy all of it with good and bad
i don't understand people who say emo with despise, what will you recall after life is lived, if you all act cool and grownup without any happenings
isn't it all too bland and boring, like nothing to recall
and all relationships'd be alike, civilly met and separated something
I've dodged the question of dealing with a new date's friends largely by never dating anyone long enough to ever meet their friends. The Ugly Naked Guy moved to be with me and for many years just adopted my friends rather than make any of his own. When he finally did make some friends, he mostly hung out with them on his own and I never really got to know any of them.
UNG pulled off the sort of elaborate friend-stealing coup Sifu referred to above. Actually, he attempted the precise same maneuver with two of my oldest friends -- one went for it and the other told him to fuck off. Hurt like hell in the short run, but ultimately he did me a huge favor by revealing both friends for who they really are. Good info to have.
Not quite a date's friends, but I did have a guy's mom once tell me that I could do better.
Not having yet read the thread, I weigh in anyway: Rah and I have met a lot of one another's exes and never had a problem with any of them. I know next to whom he's going to wake up in the morning, so why be jealous? Christ.
OK, that's not entirely true: I did once get steamed at an ex of his who came on pretty strong with the flirtation before he realized that Rah was not single and that his not-singleness was standing there glaring. That situation didn't find its birth in some automatic jealousy on my part, though, it was purely because the guy was being very hands-on out of ignorance.
I did have a guy's mom once tell me that I could do better.
Oh man. My college bf's parents each pulled me aside to say this to me, and then I met his senile octagenarian grandfather, who yelled out at Easter, "AWB WHAT ARE YOU DOING WITH WILL? SURELY THEY HAVE OTHER BOYS AT THAT COLLEGE." I laughed, assuming it was some kind of ribald grandpa joke, but no one else was laughing with me.
Ah, Bad Old Times!
BPL had best reaction. On my first date with my wife we ran into her ex boyfriend, who had a similar reaction as described here. My beloved felt the need to talk to him for a good long time while I paced up and down in the lobby muttering about the difference between real feelings of disappointment and loss and passive aggressive power games.
Note also, that drama is dramatic. Even if someone else is throwing it out there it gets all over everything. And sometimes, frankly, people like that. It puts some topspin on events, gives them an energy.
Oh, and in terms of meeting exes' new beaus, again, why be jealous? The past is the past. I've never gone out of my way to be rude to an exes' new boyfriend. The ex had clearly made their choice and being a child about it wasn't going to do anything but reinforce that.
154: Also no dice. It's OK.
163: I would bet you anything that the reason you haven't seen him since then is precisely because his mother died -- not because he has a loving wife.
Not sure how you mean. My sister & I were both close to his mother - wife-to-be and I visited with her when we were in her city - and he had just a couple years before been to our mom's funeral, so if anything, the bond could have tightened.
I've kind of been avoiding talking to my sister about this. Until a year ago, they lived in the same city, so they were definitely in some contact with him after the last time I saw him. So she might know more, but also might have more reason to be pissed. But we always had our independent relationships with him, so it's not like he'd freeze me out over something she did; he'd be more likely to bitch to me about her (and has, in the past).
He's a big Yankees fan, so it's possible these last few years have just been really tough on him....
I asked one of my college guy-friends about this phenomenon, and he explained that any man who has ever slept with a girl can't help but think of her as his own sexual property in some sense. Even if he's cool with the new BF, it's because he had her first, and if he is the new BF and he's cool with the old one, it's because she's with him now, but that any interaction with another guy who's slept with your GF or ex-GF is necessarily about comparing property claims. It sounded really infantile and pathetically misogynistic to me, but I just figured that's because my friend was 20. It's really frightening to see 30-something guys still acting like this.
198: nothing complicated - i was just thinking that he had probably gone into a bit of social withdrawal/withdrawal from being able to make the effort to be in touch with other people.
as you probably know, sometimes that lasts a while.
Another late update and I learn that bpl's ex has, since the breakup, himself brought a woman he was seeing to an event. Wow.
Petulant McEmo all the way. He probably just brought the other woman so he could break up with her and then be all whiny and sorry for himself about both of them simultaneously.
Heh. I went to a baseball game with UNG, the guy whose mom thought I could do better and my brothers early on in the relationship with UNG. All was good until around the 4th inning one of my brothers referred to my past relationship with the other guy. UNG turned over-the-top gropy/smoochy for the remainder of the game. Then, on the drive home, Mario UNGdretti was a testosterone filled maniac, pulling a fairly high-speed U-turn on a busy city street. We all thought we were going to die, but the ex was totally amused. He's still my very favorite ex.
201: "Ha! See, you bitch? I don't need you! I'm knee-deep in pussy! Pussypussypussypussy!"
201: When can we expect the "Bpl thinks I'm weird and obsessive and little possessive, and thinks 'we need some space'" update? Her ex is a freak, and she sounds--from what little we've heard--cool enough that it isn't hard to imagine someone having a tough time letting go. But she got over him. You should do the same.
Don't make me add you to my enemies list, Timbot.
Ogged knows where you buy your breakfast pastries.
Di, I don't think you've ever explained why you wound up marrying UNG. There had to be something there, right?
207: Dude, you stole my base-playing girlfriend! Cut me a little slack!
206 is kind of hilarious. She's cool with it, why can't you be, ogged?
It would be more convincing if you spelled "bass" correctly.
(Low blow, I know.)
212: I hate you. (I've always made that mistake, for as long as I can remember.)
Has it been long enough that I can make an "all your base" joke and have it be kind of hip and retro?
I did have a guy's mom once tell me that I could do better.
On topic, I've on many, many occasions, more than I can count, had guy's friends tell me I could do better. Which was a little weird. But mostly demonstrates the extent to which all of my boyfriend's friends come to think I am the shit.
216: The guy's friends often envy the fact that he's hooked up and want to convince the girl that she's just settling. The dudes are cutthroat that way.
I had a friend's mother interrogate him in that coy way mothers do as to why he had never asked me out.
Yeah, I think that's a pretty common trope among guy friends. I certainly said it to all my friend's girlfriends; usually affectionately, but still. If they take you aside and say "you really can do better," that's different.
to which all of my boyfriend's friends come to think I am the shit
Or want to get in your pants.
Finally, I think it is time for retro 'all your base' jokes. I'm relieved.
Yeah, I think that's a pretty common trope among guy friends.
This is it. I've said it to most of my male friends' significant others. In a couple of years, when they're old enough to understand it, I'll be saying it to their kids.
219, 220: I think it's probably just that I've made some pretty poor choices of people to date. One female friend of my ex once removed said "___ is a great guy and a fun friend, but you and I both know he makes a shit boyfriend."
She was quite right.
You know, the bigger problem I have with the intersection of friends and dating is that I almost never like the people my friends date. In this way, I'm a horrible friend to meet; I'm quite judgmental and basically have not, to date, thought anyone was good enough for a good friend of mine to be with, save one guy that my friend ended up marrying. Oh and when two of my friends started dating eachother, by which I was briefly weirded out and then very happy for them.
Am I just an evil bitch?
224: It's pretty common to dislike the people your friends date.
In fact... I'm casting my mind back to try to remember a friend's gf that I've liked...
Nope. Nothing. I remember a couple of prospective gf's that I liked, but we were competing for them, so that's a different question of judgment.
224: If you are, I am, too. One of my friends married a woman whom I'm sure has redeeming qualities but has a manner of personal interaction that drives me up the fucking wall.
Am I just an evil bitch?
For "evil," as for Hall of Fame, you need career consistency. Let's see if you can keep it up for another fifteen years before we start passing out the accolades.
I am very sensitive to signals of happiness in my friends, and if dating Whomeverthefuck makes them observably happy, I'll make T-shirts and wave signs. Like your BF, MLB, whom I've never met; I don't know anything about him really, but I actually sort of love him just because he makes someone I know and like feel powerful and cared for and respected. That's the most anyone could ask.
What I don't get is how some of my friends expect me to love their partners when all I hear from them is "He really hates and doesn't understand what I do for a living" or "She doesn't like sex and pulls away every time I touch her." Or when having a partner makes a friend demonstrably manic or low-energy---I'm not going to be very friendly to someone who makes my friend less happy, even if that friend says s/he's "in love."
Is eb here? I've got an apartment idea for him and I don't know his email. If someone has an email for him, please email me!
Nope. Nothing.
Oh, hang on! That's not true. There are a couple.
I am a Good Person, and you all are Bad People. Ha!
Yeah, the second paragraph of your 228 is right on, AWB. I'm the sort of person that people seem to want to confide in, so my friends always end up telling me all kinds of things that are embarrassing or troubling about their relationship. Then, I come out against the significant other in question. Then they get upset with me for being judgmental. It's like, dude, I'm judging based on information you gave me! Eventually they learn to be much more cautious about what they tell me, which is a little sad.
And actually, you have even met my boyfriend, albeit only like a week after we hooked up. We all met up in a bar somewhere in Midtown last January, can't remember the name, and I had my two friends with me. I had planned that trip a month before. Funny stuff.
A substantial portion of my friends have found SOs I think are super, super cool. Dunno what that means.
Oh right! I did meet him! Sorry, didn't realize it was the same dude.
I was surprised at Ogged's saying that he doesn't often like his sweetheart's friends. Aren't they rather uniformly like the sweetheart?
It is hard for me to imagine that someone who liked me enough to date me wouldn't enjoy my friends. We're like.
I'm casting my mind back to try to remember a friend's gf that I've liked...
That seems strange, I like all my friends' wives a lot. Or does that not count because they're married?
Or does that not count because they're married?
That seems right. Once people actually get married, it's a whole different calculus.
I think it's quite different given the context. Thinking well of the husband of your long-distance friend, who you are going to see very rarely, pretty much starts and ends with the fundamental: "Does he make her happy? Are they good for each other?"
For local friends, the additional consideration of "Will I have to bite my tongue a lot around them, even if they apparently make each other happy?" enters in. Cala's comment about conversational style is apt here. Forced socialization in that context can get pretty unpleasant.
And then there are your nearest and dearest. I consider it a profound blessing that among the folks I talk to every day and eat with once or twice a week, their spouses have so far fit quite well into the mix.
I'm casting my mind back to try to remember a girlfriend I've introduced to my friends. A minority, and only when pressed. I suppose I'm just inclined to compartmentalization. I blame my upbringing.
Wives seem to be different. I know a lot of pretty cool wives.
Actually, the more I think of it, I know a lot of pretty cool SO's, too. So I'm completely ass-talking. It's just among my "see them a few times a week" circle of friends that I'm so thoroughly dismissive.
209: Lord, but the self-indulgent, introspective self-psychoanalysis required to answer a question like that! (In other words, thanks for asking... )
I hooked up with him at the tail end of a year-long teaching gig in Germany and, in part, I suspect I fell for him as a way of holding onto some tie to a country I had come to love. My grandma had just died, so the vulnerability of grieving may also have played into it a bit. The language gap (his broken English, my broken German) may have impaired my ability to pick up on warning signs. My persistent middle-child syndrome feelings of neglect made his obsessive attentiveness in the beginning irresistible. His wounded puppy schtick (portions of his family -- particularly his parents -- truly are fucked up) played very nicely on my need to be needed.
He put me on a pedestal at the outset of the relationship, which was a disorientingly wonderful feeling. But as one friend of mine once put it, as nice as it may seem to have someone think you can walk on water, it also means they won't feel like you need or deserve a hand when you feel like you're drowning. The portrait he painted of himself was as deceptively idealized as his image of me. Turned out, his education wasn't what he'd claimed. His self-sufficiency was pure mirage. His liberal rejection of gender roles dissolved into poorly veiled hostility when I actually began achieving some success in my career. He is very talented at painting the picture of himself that people want to see -- a trait, I have since learned, not entirely unusual amongst narcissistic personalities. And I was a little to ready to believe that what I wanted to see was real.
And most of this is surely just a futile effort to try to rationalize a decision made long ago that really makes no rational sense from my present perspective. I certainly can't come up with one good reason why I turned down a gorgeous, smart, med-student (who was then my best friend is now a successful and respected vascular surgeon) in favor of UNG. Except maybe some ev-psych instinctive recognition that, despite his personality disorder, he had excellent genes -- because I will say that, looking at Rory, I can't imagine a more perfect child and half that DNA is his.
Glad you asked?
I was surprised at Ogged's saying that he doesn't often like his sweetheart's friends. Aren't they rather uniformly like the sweetheart?
Maybe this is another instance of mrh's wisdom that the music he likes sounds a lot like the music he doesn't like.
199: any interaction with another guy who's slept with your GF or ex-GF is necessarily about comparing property claims. It sounded really infantile and pathetically misogynistic to me, but I just figured that's because my friend was 20. It's really frightening to see 30-something guys still acting like this.
Somehow I don't think this kind of behavior is specific to men.
Also, 201 (the ex brought a woman he was seeing to an event) changes everything. The guy's acting out isn't rational even by his own lights. But you know, while it is manipulative on his part, he may not realize it. Maybe a third party should take him aside and explain that he's making the bpl slightly afraid, and that it looks like he's trying to break her and Ogged up, and these things are not, uh, fair.
That said, bands break up over this kind of shit all the time! Didn't someone patiently explain to me a while back, when I asked what was wrong with dating someone in your apartment or office, "Don't shit where you eat"? Terrible language, that, but one does see the point.
That seems strange, I like all my friends' wives a lot. Or does that not count because they're married?
Sure, before they get married you are protective of your friends and so you are a little extra critical because you want to spot the warning signs before they fall too far. Once they are married, your protectiveness shifts to wanting the marriage to work out, so you become a little less critical.
237: Exactly. I'm happy my friend found her. He seems happy, and he's going to be a dad. On the other hand, I'm glad we're not in the same town any more because there is no way we wouldn't hang out and there is no way I could keep up appearances daily.
240: I hadn't realized he wasn't American. This is going to sound closed minded, but I do think cross-cultural relationships have a lot more potential for getting surprisingly far before you realize you're really incompatible (haven't done it myself, but I've seen it done). You get into a pattern of explaining and working around differences as a cultural thing, and then three years into it realize "No, that's not about being German, he's just like that. Ick."
Not a reason not to date foreigners, but there's an added potential for things to go wrong.
I can actually tolerate other people's SO's that I otherwise wouldn't be able to stand as long as I can like them through my friend's eyes.
I don't, OTOH, really put much weight on either my opinion of SO's or my friends' opinions of my SO's, because people date for a lot of reasons other than to be "happy." Most of my guy friends, especially, really like having a stable person at home who will support them, even if that person doesn't give them much to be actively happy about. And that's fine. But it doesn't make it easy for me to get along with them. And I've been in a lot of very stressful relationships with people my friends (therefore) didn't like. But at the time, it was worth it for reasons other than my immediate happiness. I wanted to learn something about myself, or get laid a lot, or get to know someone I wouldn't normally meet.
I'm still email friends with my Ex's ex-girlfriend. She consoled me quite well, actually, when he dropped me for his current GF/now-fiancee.
He is still calling me, trying to "be friends," and he thinks I should be friends with his new GF as well. Because she doesn't like that he still calls me, it makes her jealous, but he doesn't want to stop. So he thinks it will all be fine if I just chat her up and hold her hand and maybe braid her hair or something.
Except that I can't stand the very idea of her; she's the reason we broke up, since he started sleeping with her while he and I were still living together. So I have no motivation at all to develop a relationship with her, and the only reason I still talk to him is that nine years of living together and loving each other is hard to drop all the sudden, and I'm a wuss.
But not so much of a wuss that I'd make nice to her. I'm afraid I'd behave even more poorly than Emo McPetulant if you put us in the same room.
When the Old Bad GF dumped me, her sister told me that she and her husband were happy for me (I had been, for 6 years, Uncle JRoth to their 3 kids). One of the hardest parts of breaking up was this family we had been joint-babysitting for 6 years, and become extremely close to; in fact, the only time I see BOGF anymore is at their bar/bat mitzvahs. And the father of that family, who was acquainted with my wife through work, told my wife's coworker that wife was much better for me.
When my HS best friend got married to this horrible woman, I was best man, but never met her until 3 nights before the wedding. It took 24 hours to determine that she was an awful person. I wanted to tell Best Friend not to do it, but all of his friends (who were great, btw) told me that they had all already done so, to no effect. "I'm just ready to be married." Were sadder words ever spoken? They divorced, but not til after having a kid, alas.
Another late update and I learn that bpl's ex has, since the breakup, himself brought a woman he was seeing to an event. Wow.
An excellent source on the emotional dynamics of this sort of double standard is Sam Pepys' diary, where he often goes in one breath from describing how he had it off with some local wench that afternoon to tearing himself up at the possibility that his wife might be canoodling with her dancing instructor to some degree of remorse at doubting his wife in this way (but never to wondering about the relevance of his own conduct). It's great.
looking at Rory, I can't imagine a more perfect child and half that DNA is his.
That's sweet, actually.
You married a guy who spoke broken English? You should have called me. I would have told you not to do it.
"I'm just ready to be married." Were sadder words ever spoken?
Ugh. Those very words were spoken to me by someone I was dating, as his reason for dating me. We broke up that night. Could anything be more insulting?
"I'm just ready to be married." Were sadder words ever spoken?
"State regulations require that we cook all burgers to at least medium."
245: It's not closed-minded. If you were to troll my immigration-board, you see everything from casual cruelty to physical abuse get explained as cultural misunderstanding or culture shock. Sometimes (on the minor end) it is, and sometimes, it's that the couple doesn't share the same religion, language, class, nationality, has no business being together, but all of those reasons for misunderstandings prevent them from seeing that.
what i recalled two of my friends got divorced when i was abroad, they had a terrible tragedy, lost their daughter while she was visiting her father after their divorce
i made a decision to invite only one of them to the reception, the older friend of mine, as i thought to avoid difficult memories for them
but seemed disappointed both of them, so they stopped seeing me after one attended and another one not being called, i felt so guilty as if i was taking sides, may be his absence reminded her the tragedy more than anything that evening i guessed afterwards
245, 253: I agree with this stuff, and it sometimes makes me wonder. As a child of a cross-cultural marriage, I obviously think my parents were awesome, but when I see people I know dating someone from a totally different culture I get immediately suspicious. There's a cognitive dissonance there, and I often wonder if my parents' 15 years of marriage before my mom died wasn't as great and perfect as it's always made out to be in retrospect. I just don't know.
Isn't that one of the running gags in Barcelona, that when you're an American loser abroad, everyone assumes your assholish and anti-social behavior is just some trick of being "foreign" and girls will still date you?
the only reason I still talk to him is that nine years of living together and loving each other is hard to drop all the sudden, and I'm a wuss.
Spending just one extra year living together in a passive-aggressive, War of the Roses style system of mutual torment really goes a long way to making this easier.
255: I want to say that cross-class relationships in the same culture can be harder than same-class relationships across cultures. I am not sure I can support this, though.
Well, it probably also should have been a tip off that no German woman had ever dated him ever.
I think a cross-cultural marriage can work. I know people who have made it work, but it always seems to be when one or the other understands the other's culture well and has lived there.
Immigration boards are weird mixes of people who met their spouse while living abroad (military boys, permanent residents marrying someone from back home, students studying abroad) and ill-conceived marriage-brokerish relationships (older divorcees marrying Egyptian/Moroccan men half their age when neither speak the other's language, older divorces marrying women half their age because American women are too materialistic and feminist.) It's the latter category where there's a tendency to treat a defect in character as some exotic cultural nuance not understood. Usually the first category people are good about pointing out what's normal and what's a problem.
(It's a bit of a false dichotomy. If a man is beating his wife, it's really immaterial whether he's doing it because he's an asshole or because he thinks that's just what you do when your wife disobeys. If that's honestly his culture, fuck his culture then. But excuses get made for the latter.)
258; I suspect part of that is because different classes are, in a sense, different cultures.
"I'm just ready to be married." Were sadder words ever spoken?
Sadder words (from my ex-before-last, about his now-wife): "She just wants to get married. I'm not thrilled about it, I'm not sure that I love her, not as much as I love you [parsimon], but I can't seem to leave her." I didn't say much about this -- it didn't need to be said -- but a lot of our friends did, with respect. Anyway, they're still married, and he seems to have a through-thick-and-thin attitude about it.
I want to say that cross-class relationships in the same culture can be harder than same middle-class relationships across cultures.
I think this is the ugly truth.
I want to say that cross-class relationships in the same culture can be harder than same-class relationships across cultures.
It seems like a narrow definition of "culture" that doesn't allow for the incorporation of class and other factors. I think of Orthodox Jews as having a very different culture from their more secular bretheren, for example. (And I note, in passing, that ogged's set of proxies, like makeup, education, etc., was always set out as a way of measuring (what I'll call) culture.)
Oh, it certainly can work -- there's just a particular pitfall for cross-cultural (and I'm sure cross-class as well) relationships there.
261: Good point.
264: Not sure I'm following. I'm arguing (weakly, because I'm not sure it will stand up) that it's harder for an upper-middle-class American to have a successful relationship with a working-class American than an UMC person from another country. What are you arguing?
266: Well, as a data point, I was able to make the relationship with the UMC foreigner "work" for 10+ years but barely made it two dates with a working-class American.
266.2: I think Tim's arguing that cross-class relationships are cross-cultural relationships.
264: The same thing as 261, though I think there are probably many more factors than class and nation of origin.
256: Tcheky Karyo has a brilliant speech in the otherwise forgettable movie Addicted to Love. He compares being a Frenchman in NYC to being Superman on Earth. Back home on Krypton, he's nothing special, just like him in France. "I speak French? Boffe, everyone speaks French. I make a nice sauce? Pfft. Anyone can make a nice sauce." But in NY? "I can just read girls the phonebook."
270: What is "Tcheky" short for? Or is it a rootless nickname?
when I see people I know dating someone from a totally different culture I get immediately suspicious.
The mother in the babysat family referenced in 249, on the subject of marrying a non-Jew, quoted her mother thus:
"Marriage is hard enough without having to deal with all that."
What is "Tcheky" short for?
Seems like it would be a German nickname for any Czech, but that seems an unlikely basis for an actor's working name.
He's Sephardic! From Turkey! It's Çeki.
Who knew?
That said, bands break up over this kind of shit all the time!
This sentence gives me chills, as my band-mate is currently dating our drummer and they're kind of rocky right now. I'm hoping the result is Rumours-level brilliance.
There was an article in (I think) Salon a couple years ago about "equally cool couples" and "unequally cool couples" that this conversation is reminding me of... here it is.
"unequally cool couples"
I'd like to think this explains my love life. Alas, "equally uncool" is probably more apt.
my band-mate is currently dating our drummer
I like how the drummer doesn't count as a bandmate.
What do you call someone who hangs out with musicians?
Did you hear about the musician who locked his keys in the car on a hot summer day? He had to break a window to get the drummer out.
What do you call a drummer in a suit?
I like the jokes about banjoplayers, too.
I have never even met a banjop, much less had relations with one.
The answer to 282 is, of course, "the defendant."
252 belongs in the Unfogged Hall of Fame.
285: Keep telling yourself that, RMcMP. Maybe the shame will end one day.
283 - funniest thing I read all day. Hmm, actually maybe second funniest (funniest was about Michael Fagan coming in the Queen's ear), but very fucking good.
If anyone wants, I can start liveblogging the irrational, burning jealousy that I am suddenly feeling upon discovering via Facebook than an ex with whom I've remained friends is now in a relationship. I don't want to meet this guy, I don't want to ever see him with her, and I'm extremely relieved that he's not in my circle of friends. I'm really embarrassed about these feelings, but it's true. This has ruined my mood for the rest of the day.
I'll be at peace with it soon I guess. Closure, maybe.
Live blog it, geo! We need a topology of jealousy!
No, it's just too bad of a feeling. It just reminds me of all the asymmetry in our relationship which I was able to avoid thinking about for a while.
C'mon I really do think liveblogging it is the best solution. Put on some appropriately moody music and tell us how it feeeeeels.
You tease. I believe the current American remedy is to have a drunken hookup that allows a wave of self-loathing to overwhelm the wave of self-pity and jealousy you're feeling now. Will you liveblog that, at least?
Asymmetry in the relationship? Maybe it's time for some asymmetrical warfare!
I bet that Ben Franklin knows some chicks who are hot-to-trot.
It's a very embarrassing feeling.
I would have imagined that I'd be happy because she's happy. That's happened before after other breakups-followed-by-new-relationships.
But she's always happy. She was happy with me, and then she was happy alone, and now she's happy with a different boyfriend. So with all else being equal, my focus turns to my own feelings, and I now finally feel like I've lost in some sort of competition. This is a feeling I managed to postpone after the breakup, continuing to be friends. Sure, maybe she'd rather be with nobody than with me. I can respect that. She needed to make a change in her life.
But now she's happier with somebody else than with me! That's completely different.
I'm going to try not to see her for a while. I definitely won't be passive-aggressive like the guy in the post, but I can't bear to actually initiate any friendly activities now.
I'm sorry, Mr. Washington. It really does suck. It is up to you to manage yourself, but this should give you a whole lot of slack to treat yourself well. Indulge on anything you want, with my encouragement and good wishes.
Maybe she's happy because she's too stupid to know how horrible things are, like you do!
I thought there would be more anti-sympathy. After all, I hear that a good thing has happened to a friend, and have nothing but angry and sad thoughts.
I'm sure it'll happen again when my friends who took more risks in life start making $200,000 a year.
I'm going to try not to see her for a while. I definitely won't be passive-aggressive like the guy in the post, but I can't bear to actually initiate any friendly activities now.
That seems reasonable. Don't let ogged kid you, either: the bpl's ex is behaving badly, but--with the exception of pitching a fit--within a normal range of behavior. ogged's just het up about this because he now realizes that (a) bpl must see her ex all the time, and (b) he plays an instrument and ogged doesn't.
But she's always happy. She was happy with me, and then she was happy alone, and now she's happy with a different boyfriend. So with all else being equal, my focus turns to my own feelings, and I now finally feel like I've lost in some sort of competition
This makes complete sense, Geo. We wouldn't want to get all serious here or anything, but a large component of most (not all) relationships is an exchange of needs, and if this woman runs happy solo for the most part, she never needed you. Ouch.
Sorry. Your reaction is completely understandable, including the wish not to see her for a while.
We wouldn't want to get all serious here or anything, but a large component of most (not all) relationships is an exchange of needs, and if this woman runs happy solo for the most part, she never needed you.
And if she didn't need you, odds are nobody ever will!
no, it means she'll never need anyone.
I can believe that, unless she gets married!
Hopefully by that point I'll be married too.
305 came out sounding critical or deprecating, not my intention.
(b) he plays an instrument and ogged doesn't.
I'm content to play his ex.
Christ, parsimon, you really want argue that happy people are bad to date?
geo, you seem to be handling this intelligently; I think you're right to avoid contact with her until some of the initial shock wears off. It's hard not to think of it as a competition, but it really isn't. But I know where you're coming from, to the extent that it's easier to deal mentally with 'she doesn't want to be in a relationship' than 'she doesn't want to be in a relationship with me.' I second Megan. Treat yourself well.
310 before 307.
geo, I don't think you're a bad person largely because I've been on the other end of that: being the first person in a bad breakup to move on, and took a small amount of solace in the fact that he broke my heart and has struck out since. So I figure it's fair to allow the feelings to go the other way.
307: geo let the rage build inside of you. Feed your hate, let it consume you.
No, that came out wrong. Just saying that what parsimon said isn't really that much of a problem in my case.
Although 309 is a fine response to Timbot's provocation, I just realized that I told bpl about this thread. I hope she doesn't feel the need to revisit it. La di da. Macho bluster, baby, macho bluster!
Christ, parsimon, you really want argue that happy people are bad to date?
Chill out, please. I was not arguing that by any means. I was observing that many people, many of us, are used to relationships in which we each have needs, and that being in a relationship with someone who doesn't particularly need anyone is a novelty.
So, yes, please back off with the overly harsh response.
Revisit? Is she on to the blog?
She knows about it. Reads it occasionally.
I just realized that I told bpl about this thread.
Wait, so you're out as Ogged to her? Interesting.
314: wait she reads the blog now? Oh holy shit this is gold.
BPL CHECK THE TIVO
So did she manage to find it on her own?
I thought you were paranoically protective of keeping identities separate?
I didn't come out to Jammies until we'd been together for six months, and even then it was messy and ill-planned.
315: Already backed off. Will recall in the future that 'she never needed you. ouch' means 'novelty.'
So did she manage to find it on her own?
Nope.
321: he caught you in bed with a really sexy thread?
Well then. Hello, bass-playing lifeguard.
321: Just like when Dil came out to that guy in The Crying Game. He should have done it way earlier.
It went about how I expected. I brought it up on the laptop and said "that's my blog," and left her to it for a while. I came back, she was already doing other things. If she reads this far down this thread, I'll be amazed.
321: he caught you in bed with a really sexy thread?
He knew that I commented Unfogged. I was having an IT problem that I mentioned absentmindedly over e-mail. He wandered to Unfogged to see if he'd have the problem, opened a comment thread and saw "heebie-geebie" which he recognized as a childhood nickname. So he clicked on it and stumbled onto my livejournal, which had not been pre-screened for only nice happy content.
I brought it up on the laptop and said "that's my blog," and left her to it for a while.
So which poster does she think you are?
Not sure there's a lot of room for ambiguity there, teo.
Depends what posts were on the front page when he did this.
"Honey, about this Gil Thorp thing..."
329: he saw all the stuff about stabbing him while he slept, eh?
331: yeah presumably she thinks he's w-lfs-n.
"Wow, this stuff is unlistenable. No wonder he doesn't like my band!"
Out for a bit. Fight amongst yourselves.
332: From the about information, the only single guys listed are either ogged, or can't be him.
Fight amongst yourselves.
I'd love to, but I have a date.
I do. I would if I were dating ogged and he said 'here's my blog!'
So which poster does she think you are?
I'm thinking that 'Bob' exists for just this reason.
322: Will recall in the future that 'she never needed you. ouch' means 'novelty.'
Look, there's no need to make a fight out of it, but I will say that in my experience, anyway, people do usually fill needs and roles for each other. I don't see how this is controversial. If it is, then my experience is unusual. So be it.
Best of luck to Teo et al. in their dating endeavors! It's all good.
Having a couple of decades with both, I'll agree that transnational and transcultural both present difficulties. Both are dwarfed, though, by normal human variation. Easy going vs. Wound up is much more difficult than German vs. American. I haven't lived Kind vs. Mean, but it's obviously much more significant that mere money/class.
All I'd deny is that 'X is happy' means 'X has no needs that you could have filled in a relationship.' Flip it around and it makes the ideal relationship person sound co-dependent. If they were happy, they wouldn't need your sorry ass around.
But the harshness of my response is that it sounded like a really shitty thing to say to someone mourning a break-up.
349: oh like the guy didn't deserve it. Here he is, imagining preventing her from being happy so that he might be less miserable! That kind of passive aggresive weirdo deserves to be alone.
No, uh, so parsimon I think maybe what Cala's saying is that if you're mourning a breakup, hearing that your ex never needed you anyhow may not actually be a balm for your sorrows, which I think might have been how you intended it.
I mean maybe it would? It just doesn't seem that likely.
Last time I had/was an ex, I moved away in some measure to avoid the awkward meet. So the ex -- who'd left me to explore -- dropped by a month or so later witha couple guys in a convertible she'd met a day or two before.
After making sure I learned she was doing them both in various combinations, she asked if it wouldn't be too much trouble for me to borrow a car and drive her 4 hours away for her next adventure. Sure, just promise you won't come back.
349.2: Yes, I tried to say moments later that it came out sounding wrong. It seemed Geo was talking on a slightly meta level about how embarrassing it was that he was as jealous as he was, so it seemed reasonable to talk about why he might be. He later said that wasn't quite it.
In general, regarding the flipping around that makes a relationship sound codependent, obviously that's not the idea; nonetheless, realizing that (established, anyway) relationships do involve a degree of mutual dependence is just honest.
No, uh, so parsimon I think maybe what Cala's saying is that if you're mourning a breakup, hearing that your ex never needed you anyhow may not actually be a balm for your sorrows
Just saw this. To repeat slightly: I thought that's what Geo was saying himself.
Of course they do. Sometimes, both people were also happy being single before they were happy in a mutually dependent relationship.
"She never needed you" is nothing to "she never loved you like you loved her."
So, teo's dating. ogged's dating. Who's next?
Ha. If I'm lucky, me again. Honestly, the 'people also being happy single' thing reminds me of Silverstein's The Missing Piece in which the view is forwarded that one is actually a whole pie all by oneself, and doesn't, in truth, need anyone! And I wonder, then, why people on this blog talk about dating so much.
Yeah, it's weird when Shel Silverstein and Unfogged don't match up.
when your nose is cold and runny,
you make think it is funny.
But it's snot.
Megan should date Sifu.
Emerson could date Flippanter.
364: Uh, but Unfogged doesn't match up with itself if it claims it's Shel Silverstein happy single.
I meant I am dating, not that I need someone to date. Oh, hell, now I'm in trouble.
I bet Emerson is, too.
Geez that didn't even make two hours. Was she invisible?
There is a place where the comments end,
And before the posts begin,
And there the screen turns blank and white,
And there the window lets in light,
And there the readers stop for the night
To rest from the clamorous din.
Let us leave this place where the snark grows thick
And the long threads wind and bend.
Past the prompts where the inside jokes go
We shall type with a type that is measured and slow,
And click where the soft-white arrows go
To the place where the comments end.
Yes we'll type with a type that is measured and slow,
And we'll click where the soft-white arrows go,
For the pointer, it marks, and the pointer, it knows,
The place where the comments end.
Was she spooked by the lunar eclipse? Did you explain that you could bring back the moon if the date went well?
It wasn't terrible, it was just a lot more like our first date than our second. Same place, even.
And now I see that the thread has moved on.
377: mrh recommends treating women like uncivilized savages, which is cool, I guess.
381: women -- the last frontier.
380: it was awesome, though.
White People like Knowing Things About Nature.
381: I'm not saying that should have been Plan A...
382: do you ever go places that serve booze on dates?
Then again, I can't tell you how many evenings of unbridled passion around here have started with, "I bring you... FIRE!"
389: then it turns into one of those "unexpected interruption" Cialis ads as R grabs the fire extinguisher to put out the drapes?
388: They might card his dates.
388: Yeah, that was the second date. I'm thinking of making the availability of alcohol a requirement for future dates. Also, no more weekday nights.
366: Flippanter is taken. But who knows how long it will last? She didn't express any interest in my Jorge Luis Borges parody!
So teo, how was the milky white rain?
Dude... has anyone else seen this commercial for PVC pipes?
You have a baby...PVC pipe is there.
You entertain guests...PVC pipe is there.
You need medical care...PVC pipe is there.
I love real commercials that look like joke commercials.
You need a handjob...PVC pipe is there.
Silver City's pretty far away from me. I've never even been there.
Okay, then go back to thinking it was a euphemism.
Never heard of this either except for chem trails on Art Bell's Coast to Coast. This one will no doubt make tonights show with George Noory. First UFO lights in Texas and now this must be Bush's fault. 1 posted on 01/16/2008 7:23:46 AM PST by CedarDave
Disturbing, if true!
I'm increasingly tempted to just move away when my lease runs out next week.
redfox, you know, did I ever mention that it's too bad that I got to have dinner with you for approximately ten minutes? Jus' sayin'.
The problem is that I have nowhere to go.
You can move to Chicago. It's a city full of young laydeez.
It's hella cold, but housing is way cheap for a big city, and is bursting with delicious, delicious food.
I thought you had a rent-controlled apartment in New York available from an elderly relative or something.
Anywhere! Space! The inside of a cow! World's your onion!
Hmmm, Silver City was the destination in Rat Race. Coincidence? I think not.
I feel like NYC would be really hard on Teo, romantically. Hell, I'm a pretty tough nut and a lot less picky, and it's hard on me.
Chicago, on the other hand, is not known for being a horrible place to date. In fact, I've found it positively delightful! Each successive boyfriend has been better than the last.
Plus, when it gets warm out, finally, there is the delight of laying on the grass in the sun with your beloved, which is positively unparalleled.
So, there's that.
Are any of these cities bursting with jobs too?
redfox, you know, did I ever mention that it's too bad that I got to have dinner with you for approximately ten minutes? Jus' sayin'.
Right back atcha.
Teo, aren't you working at a law firm? If you wanted to do that, there are certainly lots of those jobs in Chicago.
I mean, I know you want to do something cooler, but if you were going to work a boring job, you could at least work a boring job in a big city.
I thought you had a rent-controlled apartment in New York available from an elderly relative or something.
There are places in Philadelphia and DC where I could stay, but the rent-controlled apartment in NYC was someone else.
I have to believe that just about just about any city is as bursting with jobs as any other, if you're not picky about what you want to do, and the bigger the city, the more jobs. Close your eyes, jab your finger at a map, and have at it!
Teo, aren't you working at a law firm? If you wanted to do that, there are certainly lots of those jobs in Chicago.
I'm sure there are, but part of the reason I'm thinking this way is that I'm pretty burned out on this job and I'd like to do something more interesting.
Philly is nice. People in Philly are nice. It's the city of brotherly love, so, if you've ever considered homosexuality, that could definitely be your chance.
I'd live in Philadelphia quite happily, I think.
422: woohoo! Teo's moving to Rarotonga!
Dammit, now I'm starting to seriously consider doing this.
If you live in DC you could get a sweet job as a freelance proofreader or something like that from networking with elite bloggers. So, Philadelphia would be better.
Move to Philadelphia! There's a lot, a lot of culture there.
I'll also put in a plug for Chicago. If you spent the last few years in upstate New York, it's probably not much worse for cold, if at all. And it definitely is an ultra-fine balance of big-city awesomeness with affordability and plentiful white collar jobs.
Hell, my company is always looking for smart people from good schools (humanities majors more than welcome) for the semi-sophisticated data entry job that pays $45K starting.
Also, a mighty fine place to meet people. I never go too long searching before meeting someone new and interesting, and that's just on weekend bar trips.
You're never going to be more portable than you are right now, Teo. You're not in love with your job, your city, or a partner, and the internet is everywhere. As long as you're not expecting a sudden move to change how you feel about yourself, it's kinda now or never with the big life-altering by-the-seat-of-your-pants decisions. That is, I can't imagine it's something you'd ever regret having done. It would be "the time I just moved, because I wanted to."
Hell, my company is always looking for smart people from good schools (humanities majors more than welcome) for the semi-sophisticated data entry job that pays $45K starting.
Interesting.
431: All true enough, and I was intending to do something like this sooner or later anyway, though I was planning on waiting until the summer or fall.
Moving cross-country at least once in your life (aside from school) is definitely advised.
If you have a job lined up you can pay two rents for a few months. But I wouldn't do it unless you have a job lined up.
Seriously. You'd need a month or two of rent in the bag, because the application process is a pain and takes 4-6 weeks due to all the interviews. It would probably be a pretty similar deal anywhere else. But I was able to help my friend who was a film major in college get a job with just a little bit of background about investing, what the interviews are going to be like, etc.
There are jobs around, for sure. You've got my details through facebook, so let me know if you actually want to talk about this a little more.
Moving cross-country at least once in your life (aside from school) is definitely advised.
I certainly intend to do that at some point. The question is whether I should do it next week.
It might help you get the girl, if you promise her there will be a killing spree involved.
(moving away from Splash to other movie-based advice)
What about life can't you learn from Splash?
My city is less cruel than AWB's, and less cold than PMP's, but on the other hand, I have no idea how to help you find a job, since you don't have a biology degree.
Chicago's pretty great. Especially if you'll be moving there just after winter.
So you're saying he should wait 6 months, ogged?
Since I've accidentally given myself a pseudonym, this is a good time to ask. Po Mo Polymath: is your company hiring PhD's in finance, for something north of $45K? I'm getting a PhD in finance, and I'm having second thoughts about academia. I have no idea what kind of industry jobs I could get, though.
Now that we've serviced Teo for a while, let me return to an earlier topic: apparently bpl did some reading of the archives today, and noticed that I'd posted this after our second date. Luckily, I was telling the truth, and it wasn't about me, but it did make her wonder. Bloggers: live dangerously!
Financial companies are cracking down on hiring invisible people, after the whole Societé Generale thing exposed the lapses in security.
Teo, if you're still interested in pursuing city planning, I've got a couple of contacts for you here in cityplanningville. Portland's pretty sweet whatever your interest; email me if you want.
Did she find this one? Is she curious about what posts about her you've pulled, yet?
I say there's no time like the present! What will be gained by waiting six months?
Or as oudemia said yesterday, Fors iuvat audentes!
Did she find this one?
She did. That one made her laugh.
How about this, this, did she find that?
Nope, but remember that she didn't like that music either.
Any marketable skills, teo?
I've got about six months of administrative experience now. Aside from that, not really.
What will be gained by waiting six months?
Well, I would be able to commit to a job/lease for a year rather than three or four months, for one thing. Also, my sister will have graduated and will be living with my mom, so I won't feel quite as much like I'm abandoning her.
Fuck the posts Tweety's linking to. What I wanna know is, did she find the Sapp post?
What I wanna know is, did she find the Sapp post?
Since one of our my running jokes is accusing her of racism at every possible opportunity, I'm not worried about that one.
Wow, I suppose you mean this one, Josh?
What the various comments around November asking you how you were doing with the "weathered" woman?
(as I recall that was a different woman, but still)
Does she know about the gay stuff?
Say, does she wear makeup? I suppose she must be outdoorsy, or anyhow athletic, since she can whup your ass swimming.
I've already said too much, Tweety bird.
I maintain that that's a good post.
In much the same way the Bush Administration maintains its actions are completely legal, I'd imagine.
465: pshaw she won't find this thread again.
Jews shouldn't be argumentative, Josh.
Now who would have guessed that when the campaign's first sex scandal broke, it would be McCain? Weirdest election ever.
Wait, I've seen references, but only oblique, what's the deal apo?
BPL knows McCain, somehow? I wouldn't think he could swim very well?
I'm reading that story now. I wonder how much it will hurt him this early. Hell, maybe it makes him seem virile.
You're not going to delete this thread like you did the last ten that wandered onto this topic are you? I mean this one is sooo much tamer.
Please, delete my ex-esque whining.
Whee! Reading details. Verdict: what fun!
Well, I would be able to commit to a job/lease for a year rather than three or four months, for one thing. Also, my sister will have graduated and will be living with my mom, so I won't feel quite as much like I'm abandoning her.
Why wouldn't you be able to commit to a job for a year? Grad school application schedules? At the least it's worth talking to your mom and your sister about how they'd feel...
NYT.
Josh Marshall has a few posts up about it.
WaPo and NYT spin it somewhat differently. It being a lobbyist helps as well.
Well, teo, I certainly can't advise you to get into city planning in Pittsburgh right now; after a decades-long period of high quality, it's being overrun and undermined by a corrupt asshole.
OTOH, we have a lot of very strong neighborhood development groups, and I have connections. Just FYI.
Boy good lookin' out if you're an Obama staffer; gets Michelle right off the front page.
Can we please see, like, a LOT of Republican smear articles? Can the NYT act, for once, like the liberal fucking paper it pretends to be and actually attack these assholes for the same things their media outlets attack Dems for? Then, at least, candidates themselves won't get their hands as dirty. I wanna see exposés out the ass.
Yeah, the timing is great for Obama; not just Michelle, but Clinton's new attack strategy will be buried for a few days.
481, I thought you liked Rvnsthl better than Ocnr.
is your company hiring PhD's in finance, for something north of $45K? I'm getting a PhD in finance, and I'm having second thoughts about academia.
Contact me at pomopolymath at the usual gmail address if you want to get into this. The short answer is that we'd probably be the wrong place to look, but I'd really feel more comfortable handling details by email.
I am looking forward to: "Trust me, I never boinked that woman, all I did was provide a lot of unethical help to her clients. Strictly business."
So, does McCain's relationship to lobbying and corporate donations remind anybody else of Ted Haggard's relationship to homosexuality or, for that matter, James Hansen's relationship to intelligence breaches?
McCain sure likes blonds, huh?
This new one looks kind of like a rough Mena Suvari.
488: Yes. He is in it up to his squinty little eyeballs. His work on campaign financing is basically attempted immunization from Keating, and there is some evidence that he helped throw Abramoff under the bus to get access to inofrmation so he could cauterize some threads heading his way.
489: Oh God, now I'm having flashbacks to the awful Gavin Newsom "all his girlfriends have 'wide mouths'" conversation.
492: Oh woof. I never heard that, but I can imagine it was much like Paglia on Monica's lips (so to speak).
485: Boy Mayor is completely outclassed by Corrupt Asshole. Ocnr at least had his own corrupt buddies he wanted to help, which balanced out Asshole. Boy Mayor just rolls along with whatever the Asshole tells him.
I assume you saw the story on the giant LED billboard Downtown? The approval was based exclusively on a closed-doors meeting (80% likelihood of bribery) between Asshole and the billboard company 4 years and 2 administrations ago, bypassing 3 different public review processes. I've been meaning to blog it, but the bile gets blinding.
Marshall's post on the Times story is really good.
Ah yes, oudemia. Classic ogged:
My own sophisticated political opinion, formed after much study of pictures of Newsom's ex-wife, and the other woman, is, wow, that guy really likes blowjobs.
What are the chances anyone else becomes mayor in the next 20 years?
Does Pdto have a hope?
My friend is an intern for him right now.
I never realized Pttsbgh had so few vwls. Did they leave with the Stl Mlls?
Who would have guessed Ruby Rippey-Tourk would start reading the blog after that post, contact ogged with a flirtatious email, and now he's watching her band perform every week?!?
McMegan with some trenchant analysis of the situation:
McCain strikes me as a fundamentally honorable guy . . . so honorable that he doesn't realize when he's getting himself in a mess
I love waltzing into a thread I haven't been commenting on and snagging 500. Is that wrong of me?
(I would have commented sooner, but my commenting has gone way down since I started a job that actually requires me to, well, work.)
Does McMegan not realize how much that sounds like "The McCain-obsessed media keeps repeating McCain's slogan to me over the past eight years, to the point that it's totally inconceivable to my Straight-Talk-addled brain that McCain has ever done anything shy of perfectly honest and honorable since birth"?
McCain strikes me as a fundamentally honorable guy . . . so honorable that he doesn't realize when he's getting himself in a mess his cock into a lobbyist
Or barring that, does she realize that's almost a verbatim quote from McCain's designated shill in the article about him?
Of course she does!
Because she's a partisan hack.
C'mon now.
497: Depends on A. if any momentum happens with current development, or if some of the newer retail around town starts to empty out; plus B. does Corrupt Asshole get caught; he doesn't seem to try very hard not to get caught, so it seems like he very well may at some point. Boy Mayor has aligned himself very closely with CA, so that could be pretty damaging.
Until Pdto can get some black supporters, he doesn't stand a chance. It's really like the guy doesn't exist outside of the progressive East End. IOW, Bll Pdto: Pols White People Like!
Hey, anyone have any thoughts on the incredibly bright light moving very slowly in the sky outside my window? I don't see how it could be this slow and yet this bright. Shuttle is landed, it's in the wrong place for that blown-up satellite....
Oh look, it's the Ron Paul blimp.
(Actually, it's now clearly an airplane overhead; but seriously, it was out there the entire time it took me to write this rambling comment. Weird.)
Weather aside, Chicago is way the hell better than Philly. Or at least way better than $@*(&$* Manayunk. But if you want to work for a city gov't I would recommend Nutter's over Daley's.
Manayunk has that nice lady though.
509.2: Would that relate to whether the current Designated Black Councilmen are corrupt or not?
Ned and JRoth are so talking about The Wire.
511: yes, but enough with the damn yuppie salads & sandwiches! It's not even well executed. And why are there no affordable ethnic restaurants? And why can't I buy milk? Or iced coffee without fucking blueberry in it? And why is everyone blond? etc.
(I have to go there for work a fair bit, & I end up relatively stranded because there's no other residential or commercial within walking distance of my office.)
yeah, but not often, not at all hours & I'm usually there on some deadline or other & working crazy hours.
Too bad. Sounds like what you need is some South Street.
Move there and liberate her meetup-style, teo.
I said meetup-style, not all-I-wanna-do-is-zooma-zoom-zoom-in-a-boom-boom-style, teo.
Given your history with meetups, you can see how I would be confused.
Just to set the record straight (as it were) I have never - not even once - slept with mrh.
McCain strikes me as a fundamentally honorable guy
McCain strikes me as a guy whose concept of honor includes not taking bribes but also includes loyalty to his friends, and as a guy who's never quite gotten around to internalizing the idea that reciprocal gestures of loyalty can look a lot like bribes from some angles.
Sifu slept with John McCain at a meetup? What was McCain doing at a meetup? Did McMegan bring him?
not all-I-wanna-do-is-zooma-zoom-zoom-in-a-boom-boom-style
or, as it's now known, McCain-lobbyist style
I'm just glad to see that even after McCain-Feingold, lobbyists have still found way to, you know, contribute.
525: Yeah, pretty much. Whether it's actual stupidity or just never thinking about whether his worldview is coherent, I neither know nor care.
just never thinking about whether his worldview is coherent
Given that he's a member of the contemporary GOP I'd say this part is definitely true.
526: think of me walking funny next time a candidate approves that message, Walt.
Just to set the record straight (as it were) I have never - not even once - slept with mrh.
I'm mrh, and I approve this message.
Man, I saw her again already. Had not anticipated this, but I'm used to being able to look her in the eyes. Found that hard to do without making some sort of insincere smile, so tried not to do it.
Failed to not be passive-aggressive, in other words.