Re: Consider That Kool-Aid Drunk

1

Yeah, he's history. Honest and forthright is no way to go through the general election, sir.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 11:37 AM
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I mailed in my ballot for the Ohio primary yesterday. I'm proud to have voted for this man.

Questioning Likud policy is exactly the sort of thing that Hillary says comes from inexperience. People with experience "know" never to challenge the Israeli far right, the same way they "know" not to engage in high level talks with dictatorial regimes (except when they are *our* dictators). I'm going to be glad to have a president who doesn't "know" these things.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 11:45 AM
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Even Peretz has drunk the Kool-Aid (though most of his commenters have not).


Posted by: Otto von Bisquick | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 11:46 AM
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That is very cheering; I'm glad to have voted for him.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 11:46 AM
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Save some Kool-Aid for the rest of us!


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 11:46 AM
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Obama made the comments in a closed-door meeting with several members of Cleveland's Jewish community, who will be participating in the crucial Ohio primary to be held next Tuesday.
The candidate stressed his commitment to a secure, Jewish Israel and to pursuing robust diplomacy - while keeping all options on the table - to ensure that Iran doesn't acquire nuclear weapons, according to a transcript of the off-the-record event.

Puzzling. I wonder if Obama arranged the release of that transcript, or if he got doublecrossed.

Obama does start to make you believe in the possibility that yes, we can(TM) stop being really stupid about how we conduct ourselves in the world.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 11:50 AM
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Of course, there's this washington times front page article on how the military "fears" Obama. Kind of frightening, actually.


Posted by: Ugh | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 11:53 AM
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Until, of course, he gets pressure from the lobby! Seems to me that a long time ago, Bush senior threatened to cut off $10 billion in loan guarantees unless Israel stopped building in the territories. Yeah, that worked. There's nothing particularly "liberal" about saying that pro-Likud is not necessarily in the best interests of Israel, or the United States. Of course, the neocons don't particulary like first President Bush for exactly those reasons.

Color me impressed when he says something specific that will actually cost him votes.


Posted by: Phil | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 11:53 AM
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Even Peretz has drunk the Kool-Aid (though most of his commenters have not).

Holy shit, he really is descended from the heavens. Peretz: In any case, here are Obama's opinions and sharp insights, as expressed in Cleveland yesterday, on Israel and the Palestinians. They are not mine exactly. But they are enough like mine to let me sleep calmly.

That's... Wow.


Posted by: snarkout | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 11:56 AM
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from the depressing comments linked to in 3

Don't you know that bashing the "Likudniks" is typical anti-Semitic garbage? When they don't dare call you a Jew, they say you're a "Likudnik". Have you learned that little?
Yes, you heard it Likud = Israel = Judaism. You criticize one, you criticize them all. Also, if you criticize Republicans, you hate America.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 11:59 AM
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WTF? Peretz?

Maybe Obama really is the Messiah. Or the Anti-Christ. Or the Mahdi.

These are the end times.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 12:00 PM
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9: Wow, indeed. Note also that Peretz doesn't see himself as softening his previous positions. He's careful to distinguish Obama from those in the U.S. who would sell out the Israelis by looking for a way to find a deal with the Palestinians. He characterizes those non-Obamas thus:

many of those who are prone to criticize Israel in the U.S. are also deluded in their conviction that Jewish sovereignty itself is the essence of what prevents peace with the Palestinians.

Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 12:02 PM
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My immediate inclination, not having read more than the highlights of Obama's comments, is that if Peretz approves, it can't be particularly heterodox. Am I wrong?


Posted by: Wry Cooter | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 12:05 PM
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Here's another Peretz-bashing comment, talking about Obama's observation about the freewheeling debate within Israel itself:

It's exactly point made by John J. Mearsheimer, Stephen M. Walt. Marty, go ahead, sleep calmly.

The commenters sound more like Peretz than Peretz does. Also: Making allowances for brevity and a touch of hyperbole, this commenter is essentially correct.

Has anyone checked Peretz for whirling eyes?


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 12:07 PM
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13: yes.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 12:08 PM
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Not that the interesting thing about this is Peretz, but isn't he motivated here by hatred of the Clintons?


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 12:13 PM
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I don't think Peretz hates the Clintons notably. (That's Sullivan's game.) It's that he loves the Likud Party, pre-beard Al Gore, and an expansionist foreign policy, in that order, to the exclusion of everything else, and he's ridiculously willing to impugn people who disagree with him as anti-Semites. Especially if they're Jews. It's a big deal (or it would be if he hadn't destroyed whatever influence his magazine had) to see him note that what Obama is saying here is sane and not that heterodox.


Posted by: snarkout | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 12:22 PM
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Combined with the hardcore Republican I met who's Obama friendly, maybe Obama is right that people want less partisanship, in the sense that some of the Republican loyalists are just worn out and ashamed and want to quit. This Peretz thing almost seems like that.

I hate relying on impossible magical transformations like this, but beggars can't be choosers.

I suppose that as a Muslim Obama will veto my pig farm plan. The motherfucker. McManus is right.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 12:23 PM
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I don't think Peretz hates the Clintons notably.

I'm not sure that's right. I think Peretz basically came out for Obama (on the Dem side) almost a year ago, on the grounds that the Clintons were terrible, terrible people.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 12:25 PM
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"And I suspect there are some people in this room who have heard relatives say some things that they don't agree with, including, on occasion, directed at African Americans."

That shit really is beautiful.

Obama may really have the Ultimate Bureaucratic Superpower: convincing everyone in the room that "compromise" means "do what I say - and with a smile." I've seen this Superpower in action, and it's awe-inspiring.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 12:37 PM
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17: well and he hates (subhuman, uncivilized) Palestinians somethin' fierce.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 12:37 PM
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21: Good point. His love for Likud may actually be a side effect of his hate for the Palestinians.

19: Maybe so -- I basically decided he was batshit insane about two years ago when they banished him off to his own blog because the spittle was flecking up the Plank and have tried to avoid reading him since.


Posted by: snarkout | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 12:39 PM
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I basically decided he was batshit insane about two years ago when they banished him off to his own blog because the spittle was flecking up the Plank and have tried to avoid reading him since.

That may have been his own plan, coupled with installing his youthful doppelganger James Kirchick at The Plank in his place. To put the Peretz platform into a hip, Yglesias/McArdle-style package, don't you know.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 12:43 PM
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Peretz may be self-assured enough to allow himself to be whimsical. He answers to no one, unlike the zombie slaves at TNR.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 12:46 PM
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Interesting that Obama is not in DC to vote on the Feingold proposal to pull out of Iraq. Interesting, but not surprising, since he has voted completely with Hillary to continue Iraq funding since he reached the Senate. There's very little difference between their records since Obama was elected to the Senate.


Posted by: PerfectlyGoddamnDelightful | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 1:07 PM
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I have to say though, even timid questioning of the Israeli agenda shows some guts.


Posted by: PerfectlyGoddamnDelightful | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 1:20 PM
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Obama is not in DC

They have a debate in a few hours.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 2:03 PM
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Commercial flights from BWI to Cleveland take about an hour and fifteen minutes.


Posted by: washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 2:08 PM
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And who needs to prepare for a debate, anyhow?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 2:11 PM
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Multi-tasking!


Posted by: washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 2:13 PM
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Commercial flights from BWI to Cleveland take about an hour and fifteen minutes.

And are never, ever delayed, particularly not flights in the afternoon, in the snow.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 2:16 PM
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32

Speaking of which, fuck a snow. It has lost its charm.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 2:17 PM
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33

31: Like Obama flies commercial. Clevelander, please.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 2:23 PM
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34

Hell yes. Wintry mix can eat a fat one.


Posted by: Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 2:23 PM
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33: like private planes don't get delayed by weather.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 2:27 PM
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No need to get personal, Smashy.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 2:27 PM
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I note that w/d also tried to sneak in BWI, as if it's next door, and not an hour away from, the Capitol.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 2:30 PM
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A gentle spring-is-in-the-air rain, on the other hand, isn't so bad.

Hey, stupid question: can't Congresspeople and Senators vote in absentia, like, you know, via the internet or something? Just in case they have a debate they otherwise have to go to? Consider this an innocent question from your friendly neighborhood 5th grader in a civics class.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 2:31 PM
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If Obama really cared about democracy, he would call down his heathen muslim gods to control the snow.


Posted by: strasmangelo jones | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 2:31 PM
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heathen muslim gods to control the snow

Out of their control; no snow in Mecca.

RFTS should vote for the Thorian candidate.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 2:33 PM
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Yeah, the W in BWI is just marketing propaganda. It's way the hell up there (though one can take a bus to the airport from the Greenbelt Metro station).


Posted by: Matt F | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 2:33 PM
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can't Congresspeople and Senators vote in absentia

Nope. Physical presence in the chamber is important; that's why they have that quorum thing.


Posted by: Matt F | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 2:34 PM
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Obama is not in DC
They have a debate in a few hours.

I was trying to get a cheap shot in.


Posted by: PerfectlyGoddamnDelightful | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 2:34 PM
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39:

They swell in sapphire smoke out of the blue cracks of the ground,
And they gather and they wonder and give worship to Mahound.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 2:35 PM
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40: Dude, if Thor could control the snow, why the fuck is there so much of it in Norway? Think.


Posted by: strasmangelo jones | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 2:36 PM
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33: like private planes don't get delayed by weather.

His don't, because Obama would be all "I've GOT to get to that debate" and the pilot would be all "but the snow! I'm scared" and Obama would be all "Damn you, I'll land this plane myself if I have to. We are the pilots we've been looking for" and the pilot will feel embiggened and bring down that baby in a blinding snowstorm right on I-90, a quarter mile from the debate venue.

Sometimes I don't think Sifu knows anything about civilian aviation.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 2:37 PM
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45: I assumed because they like it, along with ryecrisp, blondes, and reindeer.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 2:38 PM
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And vodka. No skiing without snow.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 2:40 PM
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Geez. Does no one remember the Ice Giants, who will end the world in the frosty doom of Ragnarok? Everyone blames Thor for everything.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 2:42 PM
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Physical presence in the chamber is important; that's why they have that quorum thing.

Right -- that's what that quorum thing is. Is it outmoded now? I understand, convening of a quorum ... can this not be done in some other way? Perhaps not? Everyone would just wimp out and sit at home voting in their underwear, right? Just pretending to have read the linked documents and speeches.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 2:42 PM
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46 told me but good. I shouldn't have doubted.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 2:43 PM
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45 is fucking funny.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 2:45 PM
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We are the pilots we've been looking for

See, he is a muslim!


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 2:46 PM
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Everyone would just wimp out and sit at home voting in their underwear, right?

And bloggers would Rule The World!!!


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 2:47 PM
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Dude, if Thor could control the snow, why the fuck is there so much of it in Norway?

Thor doesn't live in Norway, he lives in Asgard. Like he cares what the mortals have to put up with.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 3:53 PM
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he has voted completely with Hillary to continue Iraq funding since he reached the Senate. There's very little difference between their records since Obama was elected to the Senate.

Obama voted with the majority of Democrats on all the FISA amendments the day the Senate FISA bill passed. (He missed the final vote in the afternoon on the bill as a whole.) Clinton didn't show up for any of it. That was the day of the Potomac primary.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 8:32 PM
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"And I suspect there are some people in this room who have heard relatives say some things that they don't agree with, including, on occasion, directed at African Americans."

A bolder man would have added 'or Arabs', but he's coming along nicely.


Posted by: otto | Link to this comment | 02-27-08 7:47 AM
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After recently listening to my Papa Frank's Comparative Ethnology of Tenants in Chicago, 1940-1995, I was very warmed to see that line.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 02-27-08 7:55 AM
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