Re: The Final Debate

1

It's really 10:30 PM EST on a Tuesday? Fuck that noise.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 7:01 PM
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2

She'll bring a ticking bomb, to prove he's inexperienced at defusing ticking bombs.


Posted by: DS | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 7:03 PM
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"When I hear your new ideas, I'm reminded of that ad, 'Where's the beef?'"

That'll kill.


Posted by: Wry Cooter | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 7:03 PM
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4

"When I hear your new ideas, I'm reminded of that ad, 'Say, Buckwheat, salesgenie.com is better than Mecca!'"


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 7:05 PM
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5

Oh, I guess that's just when C-SPAN starts playing it.

Where to watch for free?


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 7:05 PM
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6

MSNBC.com, apparently


Posted by: Wry Cooter | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 7:08 PM
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7

"I'm really honored to be sharing this stage with a naive, inexperienced Muslim from Somalia!"


Posted by: Not Prince Hamlet | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 7:09 PM
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8

How about audio-only? My cable is choking.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 7:10 PM
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9

Although I'm having awful buffering problems. CNN was way better.


Posted by: Wry Cooter | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 7:10 PM
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10

Man, msnbc's video sucks hard. this is ridiculous. If CNN can give a video feed without problems, there's absolutely no reason that MSNBC shouldn't be able to.


Posted by: Wry Cooter | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 7:12 PM
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11

I'm watching Ninja Warrior and pretending it's being contested by the candidates. Gobama! Climb that overhanging ledge! Leap across that chasm!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 7:12 PM
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12

Damn. I was hoping somebody here was going to have a super idea for how to stream the debate without all the goddamn stuttering.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 7:15 PM
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13

wkyc.com seems to have a better feed.


Posted by: Alison | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 7:19 PM
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14

Msnbc's streaming video seems to be working pretty well for me.

The SNL reference proves that Clinton is humorless.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 7:21 PM
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15

I wish Obama had come out in a turban.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 7:23 PM
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16

Are most people now watching on the off chance that there's a car crash?


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 7:24 PM
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17

16: I'm now watching these comments so that if anything happens I can check it out on YouTube later.


Posted by: Not Prince Hamlet | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 7:26 PM
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18

I'm still undecided for my primary, but if Obama had followed the advice in 15, he would have locked my vote for sure.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 7:28 PM
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19

13 - Thanks.


Posted by: Wry Cooter | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 7:28 PM
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20

I can't bear it. It's lose-lose for me. I want Obama to win it all, so I don't want to see him flub the debate. But if HRC doesn't win, it may be her last debate. And that makes me sad, as I still like her.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 7:29 PM
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21

Whew. wkyc.com is so, so much better (especially now that I've turned off the damn page with the non-stop popping chat).


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 7:30 PM
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22

ARG the msnbc site is not fast enough to play the video without it 'buffering' every 3 seconds


Posted by: yoyo | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 7:30 PM
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23

oh, pwnd.


Posted by: yoyo | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 7:31 PM
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24

21 - The popping chat was incredibly horrible.

Someone appeared to type "Go HILLARY!!!!! YOU GO GIRL!!!!!" every few seconds.


Posted by: Wry Cooter | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 7:31 PM
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25

15 minutes in and she gets the crowd to groan a la the "xerox" comment -- "Maybe we should get Senator Obama a pillow...." That, plus the attack on the moderators that is totally inside baseball.... I love it!


Posted by: dan | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 7:31 PM
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26

ok the local-pandering is much more annoying this time around.


Posted by: yoyo | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 7:34 PM
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27

Nafta is dafta!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 7:35 PM
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28

Oh man I don't think Obama should have gone there with that comment about woman drivers.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 7:40 PM
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29

Obama is doing a very nice job countering Hillary on foreign policy. "Once you've driven the bus into the ditch, there are only a few ways to get the bus out of the ditch."


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 7:41 PM
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30

That question from Russert was the stupidest question ever.


Posted by: Wry Cooter | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 7:42 PM
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31

I heard Obama advocated driving a bus into Hillary.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 7:43 PM
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32

Jesus, that "re invade" question.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 7:45 PM
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33

I heard Obama advocated driving a bus into Hillary.

Actually it was "blowing up a bus with Hillary and 20 innocent school children on it."


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 7:45 PM
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34

"What if the the world was totally different, woudl you support a policy that is crazy in the real world?"


Posted by: yoyo | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 7:47 PM
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35

"Obama hasn't held committee hearings with regard to NATO in Afghanistan!"

Oh, SNAP.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 7:49 PM
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36

The Cackle is back!


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 7:54 PM
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37

Can't find the right video. Way to go NBC. You rock.


Posted by: Ari | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 7:54 PM
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38

Try this direct link.

mms://a261.l2233650591.c22336.n.lm.akamaistream.net/D/261/22336/v0001/reflector:50591


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 7:56 PM
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39

Forgot html, paste that in a browser.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 7:56 PM
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40

Bringing up your biggest failure, a failure that deeply harmed the people of Ohio and the nation, is a good idea exactly how, Hillary?


Posted by: Ari | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 7:57 PM
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41

Wow, Obama is wrecking her on healthcare.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 8:01 PM
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42

it really does seem that they refuse to give hilary equal time. It makes her sound more and more desperate.


Posted by: brian | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 8:03 PM
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43

I have to remind myself how much I dislike Hillary.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 8:05 PM
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44

What are we supposed to learn from HRC's tax return again?


Posted by: Otto von Bisquick | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 8:06 PM
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45

what was russert referring to? it sounds like he was just lying about what obama said while accusing obama of lying.


Posted by: yoyo | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 8:06 PM
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46

If I ever happen upon Tim Russert on the street, I will punch him in the nose. I will punch him hard. With malice in my heart. Even if it's a nice day.


Posted by: Ari | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 8:06 PM
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47

I'm surprised he didn't emphasize the fact that John McCain's trying to get around the Federal Financing rules. That seems like the real clincher once he said that he really promised to work with the Republican nominee to make sure they're both working within the same system.


update: HillaryClinton.com plug!


Posted by: Po-Mo Polymath | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 8:06 PM
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48

even tim and brian can't help but show their sheer dislike for her.


Posted by: brian | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 8:07 PM
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49

HillaryClinton.com plug!

Yeah, pretty lame.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 8:08 PM
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50

Farrakhan question!


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 8:08 PM
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51

Farrakhan question!

Race-baiting jackass!


Posted by: Po-Mo Polymath | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 8:08 PM
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52

Sista Souljah moment in progress...


Posted by: Otto von Bisquick | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 8:09 PM
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53

God, Russert is horrible.


Posted by: Wry Cooter | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 8:09 PM
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54

Update: I will seek out Tim Russert and punch him in the nose.


Posted by: Ari | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 8:10 PM
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55

Wow. Russert is really pushing this hard.

He'll keep mentioning any religious person who's said good things about Obama and bad things about Jews for the next hour.


Posted by: Po-Mo Polymath | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 8:10 PM
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56

Ooh, Farrakhan!


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 8:10 PM
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57

Farrakhan stuff continues! "How will you keep the stink of Farrakhan off you! The Jews won't like it!"


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 8:10 PM
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58

Russert is so incredibly horrible.

Also, hasn't this stopped being debate, and just become two parallel Meet the Press interviews?


Posted by: Wry Cooter | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 8:12 PM
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59

Ezra wrote that Omar Little should be VP. I think Omar should settle for moderating a debate.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 8:12 PM
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60

B, there you are!


Posted by: Sybil Vane | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 8:12 PM
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61

you can watch the msnbc debate streaming at this link to a local affiliate. MSNBC's servers must be overloaded...

http://www.wkyc.com/video/news/breaking


Posted by: anonymous | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 8:12 PM
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62

I think Omar should settle for moderating a debate.

I'd pay cash money to see that.


Posted by: dob | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 8:13 PM
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63

Debate rule for '08, apparently: When Farrakhan is mentioned, drink three fingers.

Surely someone can dig up a former KKK guy who supported Hillary Clinton or something. There's no way that her support is entirely clean of famous crazies.


Posted by: Po-Mo Polymath | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 8:13 PM
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64

Obama should point out the the obvious grounds for Black/Jew unity. The Fro.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 8:13 PM
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65

Russert really is a dick. I feel bad for Clinton--her campaign is so crappy.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 8:14 PM
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66

Oh Christ, is Hillary saying "I reject anti-Semites' support and he wouldn't"? Is there a difference between denouncing someone and rejecting their support?

Wow, just as I was typing that last sentence, she said "there is a difference between denouncing and rejecting."


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 8:14 PM
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67

Oh Hillary, that "me too" moment was weak. "Let me tell you about the time I didn't cozy up to anti semites".


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 8:14 PM
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68

lol


Posted by: yoyo | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 8:15 PM
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69

Does she think she just won a point there?


Posted by: dob | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 8:15 PM
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70

McCain looks old in this photo.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 8:15 PM
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71

"I reject and denounce."

Great moment in politics right there.


Posted by: baa | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 8:15 PM
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72

Did WKYC just switch to a CCTV somewhere?


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 8:16 PM
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73

Wow. I thought Clinton was going to go somewhere classy, calling out Russert for being a tool. But no, it turned out to be self-promoting jerkwadism.


Posted by: Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 8:16 PM
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74

72: And deject and renounce! That's right, I make those people sad!


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 8:16 PM
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75

Whoa, what is going on there?


Posted by: Wry Cooter | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 8:16 PM
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76

Some accidentally live camera in the studio?


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 8:16 PM
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77

They cut out for the commercials. It'll come back.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 8:17 PM
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78

Who are these people in blue shirts?


Posted by: Wry Cooter | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 8:17 PM
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79

60: Thank you! We were out of town.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 8:17 PM
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80

Who are these people in blue shirts?

Irish fascists.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 8:18 PM
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81

Maybe I spoke too soon. WTF


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 8:18 PM
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82

ZOOM INTO THE CHAIR


Posted by: Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 8:18 PM
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83

They don't look like Irish fascists.


Posted by: Wry Cooter | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 8:18 PM
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84

ZOOM OUT OF THE CHAIR


Posted by: Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 8:18 PM
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85

Last commercial break they just went to a test pattern. Looks like they're setting up in the lobby for some sort of post-debate chat, probably between the local anchor and political analyst.


Posted by: Otto von Bisquick | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 8:18 PM
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86

Back. Weird.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 8:19 PM
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87

the local anchor and political analyst

Tim Russert is a political analyst, and he could be used as an anchor.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 8:19 PM
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88

Thanks for the live-blogging, folks. I'm bereft with no cable TV and phone-only web access.

4 is very funny.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 8:20 PM
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89

73: Yeah, that's sad.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 8:20 PM
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90

Slick answer to the Ted Kennedy question. That boy's good.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 8:21 PM
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91

Obama: "The proof is in the pudding."


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 8:21 PM
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92

The last several CNN debates have been so much better than this one. This is hardly a debate.


Posted by: Wry Cooter | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 8:22 PM
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93

he dodged being called a 'liberal'


Posted by: yoyo | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 8:22 PM
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94

90: racist.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 8:22 PM
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95

Now they're supposed to denounce someone who isn't even in power yet?


Posted by: Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 8:23 PM
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96

82 & 84 are particularly helpful.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 8:23 PM
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97

That boy's good.

Racist. It was an excellent answer, though.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 8:24 PM
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98

95: No, no, reject and denounce!


Posted by: Otto von Bisquick | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 8:24 PM
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99

Do you reject Farrakhan and all his empty promises?


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 8:24 PM
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100

65 sums up my feelings.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 8:24 PM
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101

During the next commercial break, I recommend clicking on the link in 70.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 8:24 PM
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102

And the proof of the pudding is in the eating, goddammit.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 8:25 PM
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103

99: I do.


Posted by: Otto von Bisquick | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 8:25 PM
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104

Oh, Jesus Christ, another ridiculous hypothetical


Posted by: Wry Cooter | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 8:25 PM
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105

And the proof of the pudding is in the eating, goddammit.

Therefore by syllogism with teh other thread...the proof of the pudding ain't cheatin'.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 8:25 PM
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106

Do you renounce Farrakhan and all his works?


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 8:25 PM
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107

I denounce the Farrakhans to heaven...and to hell.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 8:26 PM
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108

Fuck, I love pudding.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 8:26 PM
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109

Now they're supposed to denounce someone who isn't even in power yet

Reject and denounce. And yes, someone who isn't in power, like you. I denounce you, Standpipe.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 8:27 PM
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110

OH LORD WHAT A WASTE OF TIME

"Senator Obama, if you believed Senator McCain were an Annunaki lizard, would you refuse to debate him? If so, would that be out of cowardice or anti-Semitism?"


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 8:27 PM
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111

Half-point to Hillary for essentially saying "what the fuck is up with your ridiculous Russia question?"


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 8:27 PM
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112

Fine, pwned. Anyway, did she just say about the Iraq war what I thought she said?


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 8:28 PM
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113

He was a Constitutional Law Senior Lecturer, not a Constitutional Law Professor.


Posted by: Otto von Bisquick | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 8:29 PM
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114

Damn, the generous praise for Hillary really makes Obama look good. Like they will be friends when this is all over.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 8:30 PM
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115

113: Tell Russert! He can NAIL Obama next January.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 8:30 PM
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116

113: The adjunct made good! There is hope!


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 8:31 PM
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117

There's a debate? And mayhap the Last Debate? And me not having watched one debate this basketball primary season? With my critical Texan vote to decide the nomination all by myself?

Oh noes!

Governor Rick Perry called the other day. He wants to have my baby or something.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 8:31 PM
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118

You know, I seriously like Clinton but between her campaign and the stuff she's saying in these debates, she seems schizophrenic, I swear.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 8:34 PM
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119

The people vs. the powerful!


Posted by: Wry Cooter | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 8:35 PM
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120

You ain't no superdelegate, Bob.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 8:36 PM
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121

between her campaign and the stuff she's saying in these debates, she seems schizophrenic, I swear.

The more generous part of me wants to believe that she's just totally not in control of her campaign. I didn't want to say that because I know it will get thrown in the "sexist backlash" pile, but I think it's a pretty reasonable supposition given how much she's paying those fucks to do their dirty work. When you've shelled out countless millions of dollars on campaign strategists, I'm guessing you give them pretty free rein.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 8:36 PM
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122

"A mother said she had spent 3 million dollars on health care for her family..." Talk about exploitable.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 8:36 PM
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123

Surely, surely Camp Clinton has something up their sleeve to rattle Obama. It's her last chance. What will it be???

Apparently, it was to insinuate that Obama would not double-dog denounce Louis Farrakhan.


Posted by: Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 8:37 PM
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121: I have no idea. Obviously she's got a say in what kinds of strategies they decide to use, and obviously her campaign and advisors are just incredibly shitty, man.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 8:37 PM
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125

123: That wasn't even her, that was that dummy Russert that brought that up.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 8:41 PM
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126

Am I the only one who found the "whatever" comment deeply embarrassing? Dude's the President of Russia. Shouldn't our President know what his name is?


Posted by: A. Chandler Moisen | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 8:41 PM
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127

"Medvedev" isn't a terribly difficult name to pronounce. Totally phonetic, no? Med-veh-dev?


Posted by: Wry Cooter | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 8:47 PM
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128

He's not the President of Russia yet.

Not phonetic - more like myed-vyeh-dyev, if I understand correctly - but even if it were phonetic, Americans would have trouble with it.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 8:56 PM
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129

127: Med-VYEH-dyef, more like. But close enough, especially for a people who call the current guy POOT'n.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 8:59 PM
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130

Argh.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 9:00 PM
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131

Obammers Organize Tejas ...Kos, via commenter at MY's


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 9:01 PM
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132

128 - Yes, I suppose you're right. But saying "Med-veh-dev" is acceptable in English, I think.


Posted by: Wry Cooter | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 9:01 PM
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133

Preved Medved[yev]!


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 9:02 PM
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134

i really enjoy how obama pronounces "Pakistan"


Posted by: yoyo | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 9:11 PM
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135

134: Me too. I also like how he says "Taliban." Tollybon!


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 9:40 PM
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136

Oh golly. He's a pretentious geek! One of us! One of us!


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 9:43 PM
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137

He's a pretentious geek! One of us!

Was there ever any doubt?


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 9:45 PM
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138

Zis vill be ze ... final debate for you, I em afraid.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 9:50 PM
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139

I am glad to see someone already made the joke in 133.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 9:50 PM
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140

Two things of which I was unaware: that the Internet in Russia has this LOLcats-level "Preved Medved" meme, and that Medvedev is my age. I'm not sure what to make of either.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 10:12 PM
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141

140 gets it right.

LOL - so much better than "How do I shot web?".


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 10:17 PM
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142

OT: the ads on TalkingPointsMemo are often interesting/inexplicable.

I see there's one now which seeks to lead people to a website defaming the character of former Philadelphia mayor Frank Rizzo (1920-1991). Lolwut?


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 10:26 PM
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143

So who won the debate?


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 10:28 PM
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144

Me!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 10:29 PM
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145

Not the debate about the debate, Sifu, the debate within the debate.

What's the opposite of "meta" anyway?


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 10:32 PM
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146

So who won the debate?

Russert, obviously. The US is now committed to a re-invasion of Iraq.


Posted by: Invisible Adjunct | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 10:34 PM
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147

Me!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 10:34 PM
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148

What's the opposite of "meta" anyway?

"youta"?


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 10:48 PM
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149

Youta man, Stan.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 10:52 PM
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150

teo? himta guy dat gets it exactly right.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 10:56 PM
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151

I love DATs.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 11:01 PM
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152

Fred: Maybe you can clarify something for me. Since I've been, you know, waiting for the fleet to show up, I've read a lot, and--

Ted: Really?

Fred: And one of the things that keeps popping up is this about "subtext." Plays, novels, songs: they all have a "subtext," which I take to mean a hidden message or import of some kind. So subtext we know. But what do you call the message or meaning that's right there on the surface, completely open and obvious? They never talk about that. What do you call what's above the subtext?

Ted: The text.

Fred: OK, that's right, but they never talk about that.


Posted by: d7c | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 11:24 PM
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Thanks for the thread, guys. I slept through the debate.


Posted by: m. leblanc | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 11:57 PM
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Heh, so did I. Not that I had any intention of watching it anyway.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 02-26-08 11:59 PM
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obama won on "sounds good to me" and "renounce vs. reject"


Posted by: yoyo | Link to this comment | 02-27-08 12:31 AM
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I just read the transcript. Obama's bit at the end, responding to Russert's "what does she have to do to prove herself a worthy nominee?'", saying "she doesn't, actually." was tops. Classy guy.


Posted by: m. leblanc | Link to this comment | 02-27-08 12:36 AM
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On a slightly debate-related note, can I just say that this Yglesias post, complete with a characteristically substance-free non-defense defense of a right-wing economic policy, represents everything that pisses me off about contemporary American liberalism? For extra frustration, read the commenters, who are so offended at Obama's badmouthing of NAFTA they consider it the low point of his campaign.


Posted by: strasmangelo jones | Link to this comment | 02-27-08 6:20 AM
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157: Well, he is dating a libertarian. Some of that is bound to rub off.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 02-27-08 6:26 AM
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Well, he is dating a libertarian.

Sez who? I thought Sausagely's GF was a liberal education wonk.


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 02-27-08 6:28 AM
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Maybe I'm carrying outdated info. It was true!


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 02-27-08 6:32 AM
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158: Is she actually a libertarian? I thought she was just a DLCer. Either way, his flirtation with conservative economic policy goes back to his early blogging days, when he built his rep on being a "contrarian" (i.e., a liberal-bashing liberal). It doesn't come up as often these days, but it does come up. What irritates me is that when it does, there isn't even an argument for the right-wing policy in question; it's just assumed that the dirty hippies are crazy for caring about the environment, workers' rights, etc. and we can just move on to shaking our heads at how sad it is that anyone still listens to them.


Posted by: strasmangelo jones | Link to this comment | 02-27-08 6:34 AM
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I thought it was widely acknowledged that NAFTA had lead to some bad results.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 02-27-08 6:43 AM
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162- Me, too. As Stras mentioned, it would have been nice to read how MY thinks NAFTA is perfectly defensible.


Posted by: asl | Link to this comment | 02-27-08 6:53 AM
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Everyone dates a libertarian at some point in DC. They're fun people!


Posted by: Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 02-27-08 6:55 AM
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I got a chuckle out of this Yglesias commenter:

Wow. One often forgets that the netroots is wealthy and aggressively economically centrist, but this thread is a good reminder. Thank god we're not the base.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 02-27-08 6:56 AM
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Everyone dates a libertarian at some point in DC.

Not that there's anything wrong with that.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 02-27-08 7:47 AM
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Look, there's nothing wrong with fooling around with a libertarian, but your mother and I want you to think more carefully before you decide to settle down with someone. You know how much your grandmother would be hurt if you didn't marry one of our own kind. And honestly, there is a lot to be said for staying in the tribe. It has worked for your mother and I.


Posted by: Your Father | Link to this comment | 02-27-08 7:54 AM
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You know, I've never "dated a libertarian," as the kids say. But, then, I'm a notorious prude.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 02-27-08 7:55 AM
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I don't think I would ever date a libertarian, seeing as all 15 or so libertarians that I've met have been male. And mostly computer scientists.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 02-27-08 7:56 AM
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Cryptic Ned is unwilling to let the invisible hand explore his sexuality.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 02-27-08 8:06 AM
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170: If you'd read your Rand, Apo, you'd realize that Ned's consent before the fact isn't really an issue to be considered.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 02-27-08 8:16 AM
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It was Matt who revealed to me that free trade was the Holy of Holies of the Democratic Party. (Oddly enough, it was the Holy of Holies of the Republican party, too, before Dubya. In their exit interviews both Bush and Clinton reported free trade as their greatest accomplishment.)

When Stiglitz defected after a few years of hands-on experience helping manage the Free Trade show (and he only defected half way) , Krugman and DeLong started to hem and haw a bit, but there weren't a lot more defectors, and after Jan. 2001 everyone could just bash Dubya.

A common response was to say Stiglitz's book really wasn't all that good, what was he so upset about, maybe he went a little soft in the head.

A lot of the things Krugman and DeLong have been saying qualifying their earlier free-trade advocacy were just truisms for anyone not blessed with high-level economic training. "A high tide raises many but not all boats", "Benefits and costs are never evenly distributed", "Generally better-off people are better equipped to take advantage of changes than worse-off people", "In large areas of the economy native-born American unskilled labor has the opposite of comparative disadvantage".

None of these facts is embarrassing to a conservative Republican or to a Libertarian, because they believe that the unproductive should be punished, but Krugman and DeLong were supposedly liberal Democrats.

The Clinton economists' plan balanced free trade with compensatory measures softening the blow to labor, but Clinton needed Republican votes to get his bills passed, since many Democrats wouldn't sign on. So he passed a Republican free trade bill that stripped out the compensatory measures.

DeLong has admitted something like this, but he has never said that the bill shouldn't have been passed. For DeLong and Krugman, a Republican bill was better than nothing.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 02-27-08 8:29 AM
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I've never dated a libertarian. Except for the lefty-libertarian/libertarian-socialist kind, I usually want to punch them all in the mouth. One by one.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 02-27-08 8:29 AM
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A gentleman never punches a lady in the mouth on the first date.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 02-27-08 8:33 AM
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Yeah, dammit, the donkey punch comes from behind.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 02-27-08 8:33 AM
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My fault, but let's not continue in this vein.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 02-27-08 8:35 AM
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If I were dating a Libertarian, as per impossible given that I don't date and dislike Libertarians, I'd rely heavily on my second cousin once removed relationship to John Hospers, the first Libertarian Presidential candidate (1968).

Hospers was born in Orange City Iowa like my grandfather. Both were native speakers of Dutch. And contrary to Wiki, Orange City is not near Des Moines. Sioux Falls and Sioux City are the nearest places that a coastal elitist might possibly have heard of.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 02-27-08 8:37 AM
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136: My reflex is to be depressed (in general and) at the fact that pronouncing words in a foreign language the way native speakers pronounce it is considered pretentious. Anti-intellectualism, it's unfortunate that knowing anything about foreign languages is a disadvantage, if merely knowing the local name for something is intellectual then the bar is set absurdly low, etc.

But you know, languages do have their own, correct, terms for foreign words. When we speak English, we pronounce the s at the end of "Paris." No one would ever bother saying "Mamlaka al-Arabiyya as-Suudiyya" when they're talking about Saudi Arabia. When I'm talking about Quebec, I pronounce it like a French person would -- but, well, I am in fact a pretentious geek.

And apparently Obama is too. So he's got my vote.


Posted by: Cyrus | Link to this comment | 02-27-08 8:37 AM
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If Megan were a Libertarian, ttaM, you'd be picking your own teeth up off the sidewalk.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 02-27-08 8:40 AM
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re: 179

Heheh. Now who is trolling?


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 02-27-08 8:45 AM
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178: I thought I was making a self-deprecating joke. I wrote "one of us!" for a reason.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 02-27-08 8:46 AM
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Nobody pronounces Egypt "Misr" or Greece "Ellas" either, even though a lot of puns could come out of that.

"Alas, the foreign policy of Hellas is mostly dedicated toward getting the Macedonians to change the name of their nation".

"In Misr the misery index was stable this year, neither rising nor falling. But most Misrians remain miserable."


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 02-27-08 8:46 AM
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180: Trolling is the lifeblood of blogging. Oged, at least, understands this. If they had their way, the civil, responsible goo-goo bloggers would destroy the thing they love most. But they will not have their way.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 02-27-08 8:50 AM
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http://unspeak.net/as-president-of-the-united-states/


Quite interesting. Re: the debate.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 02-27-08 8:59 AM
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167: A female friend's parents were very far left - when I'd chide them for being Communists, they didn't argue with the characterization. When their daughter married a Republican, they were troubled, but ultimately were able to console themselves: "At least he's an atheist."


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 02-27-08 8:59 AM
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182: Oddly enough, no one calls Albania "Shqipërisë", either.

A Danish acquaintance once told me that Danes *hate* to hear English-speaking foreigners call their capital "CopenHAHgen", as this approximates the German pronunciation, and is actually further away from the real Danish pronunciation than is the typical English "CopenHAYgen".


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 02-27-08 9:02 AM
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178: Agreed, in that, sure, there are English names for a lot of countries, but the English name for Pakistan is Pakistan, and there is no separate English for Taliban. I dunno. The British are particularly awful about pronouncing everything in the Englishest way possible, IME. They don't "borrow" foreign words like Americans do; they steal them and violate them.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 02-27-08 9:03 AM
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I try to pronounce things the right way, at least as an exercise for myself before going back to how everyone else pronounces them, but "Røyksopp" is too much for me. A dipththong consisting of two rounded non-English vowels? Ninja please.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 02-27-08 9:07 AM
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re: 187

You're kidding, right? You're not seriously claiming that people speaking American English generally pronounce foreign names and place names more correctly than the average British English speaker?*

I'll remember that next time I hear someone talking about 'Glass-cow' or 'Eedin-borrow'.

* note, not claiming that British people have a particularly great record in this score either. It's a pot-kettle situation.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 02-27-08 9:07 AM
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177: Weird--my wife's mother's family is from the Dutch community of northwestern Iowa (before moving to the Dutch communities of Western Michigan).


Posted by: Chopper | Link to this comment | 02-27-08 9:09 AM
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189: I think that AWB is just pointing out something that is noticeable to us Amurricans. The British pronunciation of things like valettt and hhhherb. Americans seem to have internalized some notion that the British ought to be "more correct" than we are, but somehow we have the more Frenchified pronunciation. And then there is the matter of the British "a," that Americans tend to think of as always being "ahhh," but then are confronted with semi-foreign words like pasta, where we think our pronunciation --pahstah-- will align with the British one, but find out that there the British actually say (I don't even know how to notate this) "paasta."


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 02-27-08 9:20 AM
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191: You mean like the American pronunciation of 'pastor' , only without the final -r sound?


Posted by: the Other Paul | Link to this comment | 02-27-08 9:24 AM
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192: Hey! Perfect. Yes.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 02-27-08 9:25 AM
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The British pronunciation of things like valettt and hhhherb

I'd fight to the death to defend the idea that the American one is wrong, purely because the American pronunciation of 'herb' actually physically irritates me.*

* even though I know that the 'h' was generally silent even if the UK up until the 19th century.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 02-27-08 9:26 AM
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The British aspire to more, oudemia. It's the smallness of American dreams that accounts for our pronunciation.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 02-27-08 9:29 AM
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Wait. Brits pronounce "herb" like it's short for "Herbert"?


Posted by: strasmangelo jones | Link to this comment | 02-27-08 9:30 AM
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re: 196

Yes. Only without the rhotacised vowel in the middle that Americans use.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 02-27-08 9:33 AM
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190: Yo, cuz!


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 02-27-08 9:47 AM
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Well, the r wouldn't be so rhotic among regionally accented New Yorkers or Bostonians. Or Southerners, for that matter. And wouldn't that r be rather lushly intoned by certain flavors of Scots?

We are all brothers!


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 02-27-08 9:49 AM
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No, Chopper and I are cousins. Dutchcousins.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 02-27-08 9:50 AM
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200: Better than Dutch Uncles!


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 02-27-08 9:51 AM
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John Hospers is our Dutch Uncle.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 02-27-08 9:52 AM
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re: 199

It's not a rhotacized vowel in scots english. The rhotacized vowel thing is quite 'American'. It's a trilled or flapped/tapped /r/ in scots english. English English would generally have no 'r' at all, of course.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 02-27-08 9:54 AM
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200: Well, Chopper's wife and kids are Dutch cousins with Emerson, anyway. All my roots are about 200 years deep in southwestern Ohio.


Posted by: Chopper | Link to this comment | 02-27-08 9:59 AM
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I did not know that. I guess I thought it qualified as rhotic because it always seemed much r-ier to me. But I guess rhotic is more that flat errrr, which sounds very upper-mid-west to my eastern profligate ear.

I was thinking of the "a" difference the other day, when the BBC reporter covering the American primary elections was rather pleased with his new coinage "Barack-lash," but we (and he) say Bah-rock (like rock of ages) rather than Bah-rack (like rack of lamb).


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 02-27-08 10:02 AM
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Wait. Brits pronounce "herb" like it's short for "Herbert"?

Yes, but the British "Herbert". That is, it's pronounced "hub", with a longer vowel than the "hub" we are familiar with.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 02-27-08 10:08 AM
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There are genuinely rhotic dialects in SW England, aren't there? All my reference books on this kind of thing are in my office, and I'm at home.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 02-27-08 10:17 AM
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207: Yes.


Posted by: Otto von Bisquick | Link to this comment | 02-27-08 10:29 AM
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You know what is amusing? Have an American friend and a British friend who like to cook describe a recipe made with the herbs oregano and basil. Watch the glares.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 02-27-08 10:41 AM
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re: 205

Yeah, I wasn't using 'rhotacized' in the sense of 'r-pronouncing'. People talk about dialects being rhotic, in the sense.

I was using it in the other phonological sense -- referring to a particular 'r-like' vowel colouring that you get in some dialects of English. Particularly American dialects. The 'r' and the 'e' in 'herb' aren't two separate phonemes in GenAm in the way they are in Scots English, for example.

http://users.ox.ac.uk/~bras0708/VR0003.wav

Would be scottish.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 02-27-08 10:43 AM
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203, 206: Weird, I heard the r sound all the time in herb during undergrad and from my family. What sort of regional or class accents do you mean by English English? I was mostly used to posh-as-hell accents with only slight regional lilts and the occasional Mancunian, Geordie or Estuary.


Posted by: Po-Mo Polymath | Link to this comment | 02-27-08 10:50 AM
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I think of "pasta" as one of the five things Canadians say differently from Americans.

Only five because one is "all words containing an accented syllable ending in -out", and another is "all words containing an accented syllable ending in -orr".


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 02-27-08 10:52 AM
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re: 211

The 'r' is often [almost always, in fact] silent after a vowel in RP and similar dialects. I'd bet it often wasn't there. Instead the vowel would be lengthened. It's one of those illusory things.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 02-27-08 11:26 AM
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Back to the original thread topic, John Lewis just endorsed Obama!


Posted by: the Other Paul | Link to this comment | 02-27-08 11:30 AM
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William F. Buckley endorsed Obama by dying.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 02-27-08 11:33 AM
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In fact, one problem that BrE speakers often have with their American accents is using a full /r/ where a rhoticized vowel is called for.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 02-27-08 11:36 AM
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But in any case, I still thought there were some dialects of British English that include the rhoticized schwa, but I certainly could be misremembering -- probably even on account of the rhotic/rhoticized vowel difference.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 02-27-08 11:39 AM
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re: 217

I think that's also true. Rural south-west, maybe?


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 02-27-08 11:42 AM
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That coincides with my misty memories.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 02-27-08 11:44 AM
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187
178: Agreed, in that, sure, there are English names for a lot of countries, but the English name for Pakistan is Pakistan, and there is no separate English for Taliban.

There aren't different names, but there are different pronunciations, just like for "Paris" or "Quebec." I only know like 20 words in Arabic, but I'm pretty sure that a native speaker would pronounce "طالبان" ("Taliban" written in Arabic and Pashto, if the copy-pasting doesn't work) more like you have it in 135 than how I think most Americans say it.


Posted by: Cyrus | Link to this comment | 02-27-08 1:02 PM
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