Picking up dudes is difficult, because they all talk about what they want (chick showing up and silently undressing or whatever), and they're lying. Dudes, just like regular human beings, seem to want respect and conversation. So why do they talk and talk about how they don't?

I was aware of a number of similar situations in college. Women just showing up and disrobing or attempting to perform sexual acts. Whether the guy made her leave or not, it was often somewhat disturbing to the guy. It was thought that it would end badly. Either she was thought to have bad self-esteem issues or she was thought to be just plain crazy.

These stories mean nothing. Depending on where you went to school and the quality of the football program, wide-receivers are a breed apart. The second example could have been a case of confusion.

When I was in college, most of the wide receivers were like greek gods. 6'5" and cut from granite.

So why do they talk and talk about how they don't?

Because guys are massively fucked up about sex. Men are trained from childhood to be massively insecure about their sexuality and to overcompensate as often as possible, and as publicly and as stupidly as possible. I attribute my relative normalcy in this area to my utter failure to properly socialize with other members of my gender.

3: If by "a breed apart" you mean "massively closeted."

massively

I need a new adverb.

And no doubt there are loutish guys who would have taken up the women on either offer.

I don't see why they'd have to be loutish to take the women in question up. Just desperate or unable to do better. In which case the offer would probably never have been made, but whatever.

why loutish?

A girl cannot decide to have sex without commitment?

Either she was thought to have bad self-esteem issues or she was thought to be just plain crazy.

Eh. My roommate did that kind of stuff, and it wasn't really self-esteem or craziness; she just had really internalized a lot of misogynistic fantasies about girls shutting up and doing really degrading things without being asked. And that was only because she had no knowledge of sex or sexuality until watching porn on the campus shared-network from these guys' computers. Her moves were targeted, in that you could tell from the network where the guys were who'd collected, say, 1000 blowjob videos, and she'd figure, "That's my speed" and head over to that fraternity house. Mostly, she was just really clueless and inexperienced and had no idea where to start.

That is, there isn't a massive billion-dollar industry devoted to advertising to ladies how to meet and express interest in a nice guy from math class and have fun, mutually satisfying sex, but it's really easy to learn how to show up at his door and blow him. Don't hate on chicks who do this; they're just clueless and dudes that age are too shy to get anything going themselves.

Where consensual sex that hasn't been arranged by the village chieftan means "loutish." (Undressing silently is really weird and a little scary, though.)

Ok, not necessarily loutish. Geez. Still, it's a little...coarse.

Either she was thought to have bad self-esteem issues or she was thought to be just plain crazy.

Or is cheating on someone who could beat your ass.

I have, indeed, seen this kind of thing happen. The guy was a near-olympic caliber ski racer, and very well groomed.

The lesson: if you're extremely attractive and know it, people throw themselves at you. Go figure.

Still, it's a little...coarse.

I think you're just assuming they wouldn't have had the sheet between them with a small hole cut out during sex. But we don't really know.

Plus, the guys in ogged's story are very familiar. It could be that they were honestly uninterested and weirded out, but lots of guys at my college really got off on telling stories like this to their buddies. The only thing more masculine than actually having sex with chicks is, apparently, rejecting all the chicks who come onto you.

Her moves were targeted, in that you could tell from the network where the guys were who'd collected, say, 1000 blowjob videos, and she'd figure, "That's my speed" and head over to that fraternity house. Mostly, she was just really clueless and inexperienced and had no idea where to start.

Seems like she was actually pretty resourceful about that.

11: She could tell from the network who had the porn, she could watch the porn from their sites, and then decided to go after them based on that? That's really kind of cool, for fucked up things.

CA came home to his dorm room his first year to find that a certain hot, leggy blond had let herself in, bringing many, many candles.

(I actually don't know what happened next! We weren't friends then. I'll have to ask.)

and it wasn't really self-esteem or craziness; she just had really internalized a lot of misogynistic fantasies about girls shutting up and doing really degrading things without being asked.

I think it might have been self-esteem. Internalizing misogyny with respect to sex, as an undergrad, is probably connected to internalizing misogyny in general.

17 is absolutely right.

My ex tells a funny story about how, in college, he was invited to some girl's room to cut her hair. (He had no idea how to cut hair, no idea why she asked him to, other than, maybe, because he was pretty artsy and punk at the time.) So he went over, and she was sitting in a chair in the middle of her room, and while he cut her hair (which took a while, as he didn't know how to do it), she was jerking off, quietly but obviously, the whole time. When the haircut was over, he had no idea what to do, so he just left the scissors on her desk and went back to his room.

He said it was years later that he thought back on it and went, "OH! She wanted to have SEX with me!"

"Then they brought Sir Launcelot into the tower; and when he came to the chamber thereas this lady was, the doors of iron unlocked and unbolted. And so Sir Launcelot went into the chamber that was as hot as any stew. And there Sir Launcelot took the fairest lady by the hand that ever he saw, and she was naked as a needle...."

17 is absolutely right.

Dude, maybe they just weren't that into you.

The only thing more masculine than actually having sex with chicks is, apparently, rejecting all the chicks who come onto you.

Slut-shaming is alive and well on both sides of the gender divide.

I've had forms of this sort of thing happen to me in the past. It happens. You don't even have to be super-duper attractive if you tick the right boxes for the right sort of people.

When it's fairly extreme -- silent undressing type stuff -- it's pretty creepy. But hot girls blatantly coming on to you is generally a good thing. I've certainly kissed, or rather, been kissed by, girls before I've spoken a single word to them, and I'd assume that sort thing isn't uncommon among the Unfoggedariat.

21: I'm not sure they're the same thing. She was actually sort of a megalomaniac, and not the kind who is secretly insecure. She was just taking instruction from the only sources she had access to. How do we learn how to do sex, anyway? Porn was all she could really get her hands on, and I think that's true for a lot of sheltered women of that age. Doesn't mean they think little of themselves, just that they don't know how else to have some damn sex, when everyone's so shy and incompetent.

8: Why you gotta call me names, Ogged?

I'd assume that sort thing isn't uncommon among the Unfoggedariat

You keep assuming that, Highlander.

29: Apo, it's really out of line to construe 'woman' as an insult.

In my son's HS there was an absolutely lovely girl from an influential but disfunctional family who was known for showing up at guys' houses at 10:30 PM when she knew that their parents were away. In my case I was home, and I woke up to see the prettiest little face asleep on my rug. My son had basically allowed her to stay there rather than walk home drunk.

He did the right thing, but my guess is that she felt rejected, and his shitty friends were not impressed by his refusal to date-rape. (I'm not completely sure it would have been date rape, since she unmistakably would hit on guys when she was sober too.)

No more masturbating to William F. Buckley.

Wow. End of a frickin' era. Of masturbating.

Isn't the more disturbing, and common, phenomenon in the second story the fact that the guy uses the story to humiliate the girl later on? It's not enough to reject her; he has to slut-shame her to his friends, too.

because they all talk about what they want (chick showing up and silently undressing or whatever), and they're lying

Also, this is just the other side of the "women say they want to be swept off their feet" bit. The guys aren't lying, just leaving things they consider obvious unsaid.

I also nominate But hot girls blatantly coming on to you is generally a good thing. for "Least Controversial Statement of 2008, Provisional"

Tragically for William F., Hell was integrated years ago.

28: (But aren't megalomaniacs generally insecure underneath the puffing? The louder the shouting about one's greatness, the bigger the fear underneath type thing?)

More on point, I'd argue that you can't cleanly learn from misogynistic sex roles. They may not have thought poorly of themselves before, but it was really the absense of any self-opinion about sex.

Also I'd bet that most girls who got to age 18 in a sexual vacuum - not of their own choosing - were probably exposed to plenty of misogyny along the way.

So if she has a sex drive, but was raised in a sex vacuum, and then exposed to misogynistic porn, I think she's going to believe that men are entitled to treat women like sex objects, which is going to take a hit on her self-esteem.

he has to slut-shame her to his friends, too

Dude, he didn't bring it up, he just told us the story. I'm sure it would have been very very noble of him to never mention the naked girl in his room to another soul, but he told us about it in a matter-of-fact and slightly bewildered way; not mocking at all.

I think that's true for a lot of sheltered womenpeople of that age

I have had the sort of experience ttaM describes. Actually, a number of my friends from college are (straight) guys with whom my first conversation revolved around their openness to being kissed.

McManlyPants is teh predator.

39: Right, how could you not tell? Again, if you meet a space alien, tell someone.

42: Especially if the space alien silently gets naked.

40, 41: Really? It was that kind of frat?

It was that kind of frat?

All frats are that kind of frat. Ours just was way more open about it.

The only thing more masculine than actually having sex with chicks is, apparently, rejecting all the chicks who come onto you.

Definitely.

Or, as the man says in Layer Cake, "Fucking females is for poofs."

45/46 get it exactly right.

William F. Buckley came to my dorm room one night and silently took off all his clothes, but it felt to weird and I sent him home.

38: I'm just not sure what "self-esteem" could possibly mean, and I'm generally opposed to its application to every woman everywhere in every situation. I know the kind of woman you're talking about, who buys into misogynistic roles because, deep down, she's absorbed that women are the servant class. And I knew one of those girls in college; she specifically sexually sought out men who she knew had insulted her. Because, apparently, someone fucking you in the ass and then spitting on you really means you have the upper hand.

But my roommate was different. Her whole life, she was treated like a sort of imperious demigod by her parents, though they kept her from most media (no movies, TV, video games). She had formed no concept of romance (which I thought was neat and admirable), but she was curious about sex. So she researched it, just like anything else.

I guess I hate the "self-esteem" talk because, seriously, a lack of confidence is not always the reason women find themselves in abusive situations. I ended up in an abusive relationship because I thought I was the only person who could handle this psycho and possibly help him. My roommate ended up in some dangerous situations because libido + ignorance is a bad combination, in men or women. Are there a lot of women with "self-esteem" problems? I'm not sure I know what that means, but sure, okay, fine, there probably are.

I tend to think that a lot of women who buy into misogynist stereotypes tend to be, like my roommate and me at that age, misogynists themselves. We thought we were the exception to those stereotypes and could do anything we wanted, which turned out to be whatever we thought men wanted, but only because we didn't know what we could ask for.

(too)
I kept the clothes, though.

47 is right [in the sense that it captures a certain kind of mentality].

51: One can always use another blue blazer.

I do not avoid women, natarcagam, but I do deny them my essence. Unless they have no interest in my essence, in which case I insist that they take it.

you didn't half hang round with a bunch of nellies at college, Oggers.

Okay, I personally do find the word "self-esteem" useful, but not as a synonym for having self-confidence necessarily. But I'm going to step away from that word because I'm not sure how to usefully define it for this conversation.

I tend to think that a lot of women who buy into misogynist stereotypes tend to be, like my roommate and me at that age, misogynists themselves.

Doesn't being a misogynistic woman take a toll on a person? I agree that tons of young women are misogynistic. How can that not translate into a degree of self-loathing?

11: And that was only because she had no knowledge of sex or sexuality until watching porn on the campus shared-network from these guys' computers.

A rather horrifying thought. So the fantasy laundromat-blowjob-slut became flesh at last. Reality follows art, etc.

How can that not translate into a degree of self-loathing?

Because I thought I was exempt? Misogyny, as I experience/interpret it, is hatred of femininity. I hated femininity because I was raised to have "masculine" virtues (competitive, dominant, confident, active, scholarly). My hatred of femininity was a hatred of the feminine "lack" of masculine virtues (simpering, passive-aggressive, submissive, self-effacing, sedentary, know-nothing). What I didn't know yet was that there is a host of feminine virtues (steadfastness, collaboration, thoughtfulness, compassion, earnestness) that I was missing, and I wasn't a whole person without them.

I didn't experience my misogyny as self-loathing, but what I realized is that I'd become attractive to men who were also misogynists, and who would turn that misogyny against me if I ever showed the slightest sign of being weak or indecisive about anything. My misogyny was my own egotism. But I soon figured out that femininity was something that I needed to learn to appreciate, and that it would inspire hatred of me in people I'd previously gotten along with. I was collaborating with people who were out to get me, and they didn't think I was exempt.

Again, not a self-esteem issue. And I think this is close to my roommate's issues with misogyny, though hers were more pronounced.

38: But aren't megalomaniacs generally insecure underneath the puffing?

No. We are completely secure. End of story. Next question.

Reality follows art, etc.

Oh, come on. All young people pattern their actions after things they see. They act like they're in romantic comedies when they're dating, and but each other flowers and balloons and stuff. My roommate just didn't ever see any romantic comedies.

A post about the desirable-yet-noble black dudes of Ogged's college days is a nice complement to his all-Obamania-all-the-time trend.

Heebie, I suppose you could interpret any behavior as a self-esteem issue if you wanted to, but I guess I hate the term because it seems only to be used to interpret the behaviors of women and little boys. When you see men acting violently and competitively in sex, you don't always end up with a crowd of people tut-tutting about his lamentable self-esteem issues, and that really marks the term "self-esteem" in a way that makes me dislike it. Women's problems are more complex than that, just like men's are.

-58
But you can hate certain characteristics which are ascribed to femininity without being a misogynist, no? For example, I do strongly dislike submissiveness, which is indeed a characteristic of the social construction of the feminine gender. I guess I don't quite understand the distinction you're bringing out in what you call your own misogyny.

re: 60

It's more complicated than just people following porn, though. I didn't really see any porn [maybe 10 minutes of a grainy VHS at a party some time in 1989] until I'd already been having sex for years. I think that was also true of most of the girls I went out with. Presumably there's a porn-aesthetic that informs the mainstream [and vice versa] and both are informed by wider issues around sexuality [misogynist and not] in our society but I don't think any of the actions of the people I knew were shaped directly by porn.

I presume that's an age and location specific thing, and that it'd be pretty hard to grow to sexual maturity nowadays without having a fair bit of exposure to porn.

Ah, sex, sex, sex. Isn't it funny that we spend so much time talking and writing and thinking about something that never really takes longer than 30 or 40 seconds?

Misogyny, as I experience/interpret it, is hatred of femininity.

Is it? I think of misogyny as being hatred of women. Femininity figures in, because it encourages docility among women. But I think of the underlying misogyny as hating women as a group, independent of the degree to which they express feminity. Which leads to a greater mindfuck because you're stuck hating a part of yourself, whether or not you're a feminine woman.

63: I don't know. I think an outsized inveterate loathing for feminine vices can be a sign of misogyny. That is, if violence doesn't get your feathers ruffled, but you're outraged when a woman rolls her eyes, you're probably a misogynist.

But yeah, I still dislike a lot of feminine "vices"; that dislike, however, is now balanced with an appreciation of feminine virtues and a hatred of masculine vices as well.

60: I agree with that, too. You could even manipulate me into arguing that laundromat-slut movies are less harmful than the goddamn date movies, the ones that turn the Holocaust or the Civil War into the backdrop for two super-beautiful people pretending to be in love. (But please don't). I guess I'd never asked myself whether there were actually taking their lessons from XXXXX.

On the slut-shaming, one of mys son's best friends was aggessively hit on by a different very cute girl from a prominent disfunctional family. He turned her down because he hadn't been expecting that and didn't have a condom. (Good). But then he told his friends and the word got around. (Bad.) Her firends took her side, rejected the (true) story, and ruined his good name -- they were the schools social leaders (Good: retribution). It was so bad that he decided to graduate from HS a year early and go to college (Good: The HS experience sucks for a lot of people.)

The story had a very happy ending. The guy learned from it and became the most convincingly and unreservedly feminist guys I've ever met. This may partly because he was close to his gay sister, who's very, very sharp.

When you see men acting violently and competitively in sex, you don't always end up with a crowd of people tut-tutting about his lamentable self-esteem issues, and that really marks the term "self-esteem" in a way that makes me dislike it.

Fair enough. I personally do tend to see everyone's behavior in terms of how much they accept and love the parts of themselves that they hate the most, and thus I do reduce both men and women to self-esteem issues in general.

Isn't it funny that we spend so much time talking and writing and thinking about something that never really takes longer than 30 or 40 seconds

If you're William F. Buckley, presumably it doesn't last even that long.

For example, I do strongly dislike submissiveness

You know who was submissive? Jesus Christ was. Anti-Semite.

(Or didn't, I should say.)

I guess I hate the term because it seems only to be used to interpret the behaviors of women and little boys.

Male competativeness is always about self-esteem. It's always an issue.

You know who was submissive? Jesus Christ was. Anti-Semite.

Tell it to the moneylenders, pal.

Tell it to the moneylenders, pal.

anti-semite.

Don't hate on chicks who do this; they're just clueless and dudes that age are too shy to get anything going themselves.

I wasnt suggesting that the thought that she was crazy or had self-esteem issues was appropriate. But, at that age and at that time, very few people thought that a normal girl would do such a thing.

Noting the scourging of the moneylenders is not anti-Semitic. Offering odds of 12-1 against the moneylenders during the reading of Matthew 21 is anti-Semitic.

Senator Lieberman now eulogizing William F. Buckley, Jr. on the Senate floor.

Misogyny, as I experience/interpret it, is hatred of femininity

I think of misogyny as being hatred of women.

I've seen both. I suspect that it's more of the latter, though. A dislike of feminine attributes masks a more general dislike of women.

66: I'm being pretty self-consciously third-wavy here, seeing gender as a performance of masculinity or femininity rather than a set of genitals. I hereby out myself as a fan of Judiths Butler and Halberstam. Misogynists are not necessarily people who hate vaginas, at least not in my experience. (I'm sure there are plenty of people who hate vaginas, but it's a much narrower swath than the one I'm talking about.) Misogynists also include people who say, "Hey, I love women! You know, I have lots of smart female friends where I work, and I also like sexually confident women! I just DESPISE those stupid bitches who go shopping and act coy and roll their eyes. They should fucking die." That outsized hatred of "femininity" is excused because they really dig women who show "masculine" qualities. And I say, that's still misogyny.

Okay, I'm going to work now. Seriously.

I've long been of the conviction that a lot of people who have far too much self-esteem. That's what entitlement is. It's possible to go through life with everyone catering to you and letting you get away with things and believe that that's what you deserve. You might even habitually harm others without even knowing that that's what you're doing.

Self-esteem is fungible too -- just more rat-orgasms. it's not properly distributed, and there are those who say that self-esteem-production is reduced if resources are disproportionately dedicated to economic production. Indeed, there are those who say that if the lower orders get too much self-esteem, the economy will suffer.

78: Apostropher now trying not to throw up on his keyboard.

Think of life as a game in which we contact-juggle one ball labeled Rat-Orgasms.

Different people have different definitions of "misogyny". For example, when you said your typical idea of a misogynist was someone who hates when his girlfriend acts like a stereotypical woman and wants her to stop wearing makeup and flirting, that sounds like the exact opposite of what I always thought a misogynist was. Therefore, the word should never be used, and certainly not to actually insult people, because its lack of any actual agreed-upon meaning will lead to completely rational defensiveness on the person so insulted.

Holy Joe: Senatorial Troll. Let if roll off your back, apo.

"I wouldn't say I was a misogynist, unless by a misogynist you mean someone who hates women"

-- John Cooper Clark.

I confess to misogyny about some traditional female traits, and positive about others. As an anti-professional, I also have problems with some successful professional women whom I would probably have doubts about if they were men. (On the other hand, my impressions of the female medical students and MDs where I worked were almost entirely positive.)

IA should be here.

Senator Lieberman now eulogizing William F. Buckley, Jr. on the Senate floor.

Is he doing readings from Buckley's defense of Joe McCarthy, or perhaps his racist NR pieces? That would be appropriate.

Misogynists also include people who say, "Hey, I love women! You know, I have lots of smart female friends where I work, and I also like sexually confident women! I just DESPISE those stupid bitches who go shopping and act coy and roll their eyes. They should fucking die." That outsized hatred of "femininity" is excused because they really dig women who show "masculine" qualities. And I say, that's still misogyny.

But it's the "outsized" that's doing the work, right? It seems so scale inappropriate that you assume there are other motivations, hidden under the water like the majority of an iceberg.

I don't hate vaginas, but I do hate fallopian tubes.

With women in public life like Dana Perino I have a serious problem -- not that I hate them, because I hate guys exactly like them just as bad, but because I find my hatred going into specific misogynist directions. I don't always control these impulses, because sometimes hatred is not to be denied.

In Dana Perino's case, I fantasize giving her a really ragged buzz cut and artificially decaying her visible teeth. And other forms of misogynist abuse.

I only hate uppity vaginas. Most of them are just fine.

90: ectopic misogyny is rare but very dangerous.

It's kind of a straw-man thing to say that I'm saying misogyny is hating vaginas. Vaginas are great! Everyone likes them. I'm using misogyny to mean relegation of women to a sex class. Femininity and rigid gender roles are part of enforcing and policing the sex class.

91: I have a different set of fantasies about Dana Perino.

94:

Heebie is being serious. What is wrong with the world today?

Vaginas are great! Everyone likes them

I dunno, I had one once and it gave me nothing but trouble.

Ben, I swear I saw you in my dining hall this morning.

Yeah, I've been kind of a Debbie Downer lately. The world is too hard and the problems too vast. Probably a result of everyone telling me my recycling wasn't good enough.

Vaginas are great! Everyone likes them

A recent review of my school's production of The Vagina Monologues opened with, "I hate vaginas."

99:

Result of old age and a relationship.

#97: sorry, I didn't mean that, I was thinking about Jaguar E-types.

Heebie, your recycling is an important contribution to preserving the environment for my grandchildren. I, for one, thank you.

Be more peppy and perky, Heebie!

Heebie only recycles toxic waste.

Ironically, this school doesn't even have a recycling program. At all. So the paper and bottles just pile up in my office, and at some point I'll lode up the car and take them somewhere.

load.

That's where all that shit in my backyard comes from.

106:

car s/b SUV

was raised in a sex vacuum
where nobody can hear you scream?

there's no such thing as a "sex vacuum". that's a regular vacuum cleaner and the janitor is pissed off.

I have, indeed, seen this kind of thing happen. The guy was a near-olympic caliber ski racer, and very well groomed.

There is something weirdly asymmetric going on though. I've known a small handful of really ridiculously attractive people of both sexes. As far as I can tell, the guys tend to get more unsolicited offers for sex acts, the girls tend to get more unsolicited offers for marriage.

Farm boys masturbate with milking machines. Think of that next time you have a glass.

attractive people of both

Come to think of it, `both' is too restrictive.

They say, and I agree, that many or most guys are terrified of especially beautiful women. happene

I've known a couple of model-beautiful women who really were tomboys without any beautiful-woman mannerisms. (Not the way Cindy Crawford is supposedly a tomboy). Within their own social circle they were comfortable, but out in the greater world weird things kept happening.

And that was only because she had no knowledge of sex or sexuality until watching porn on the campus shared-network from these guys' computers. Her moves were targeted, in that you could tell from the network where the guys were who'd collected, say, 1000 blowjob videos, and she'd figure, "That's my speed" and head over to that fraternity house.

I think your college IT department is putting too much information in its rDNS records. (There is a London-based institution that does this; I always know which part of which building my one reader there comes up on the blog from, as the referral string looks like port3.switch2.reception.router2.building1.anonymoushall.institution.ac.uk)

Seriously, it sounds like she was some sort of Amish network security engineer.

Come to think of it, `both' is too restrictive.

I'll say. There are very few people of both sexes, nevermind attractive such people.

117: oh Ben, you're so sheltered.

I'll say. There are very few people of both sexes, nevermind attractive such people.

You might say that, but you'd be wrong. Intersex is something like 1 in 2000 births (all types), and some of those skew ,presumably for hormonal reasons, to the sort of androgyny that can work really well aesthetically. I was thinking of one particular model with I amended 112.

soup, ben is making fun of your grammar.

120: I'm not convinced there was a problem with it. In either case, `both' suggests a dichotomy, which is incorrect.

Nevertheless, his response is informative.

101 to 100.

I heard Ben use "good" when he should have used "well." I didnt correct him. But I secretly laughed behind his back.

Because of William H. Macy?

Or Jesus H. Christ?

Maybe this is because I got married at 21 to someone I've been dating since I was 18 (and still am married to this person) but I've never really been around a guy culture where guys talk about women they did or did not fuck. I'm not saying there wasn't any such culture, but it's not all guys, either. And the male social worlds I hang out in aren't horribly emo sensitive-man cultures either.

Though one thing I'm realizing is also that about 90% of my social life since I went to college has involved both men and women--most of the male-exclusive social life I've experienced involves athletics.

I've never really been around a guy culture where guys talk about women they did or did not fuck.

We all have crosses to bear, Burke, and ways in which we feel estranged from and alien to the rest of our culture. But usually it turns out all right.

Therefore, the word should never be used, and certainly not to actually insult people, because its lack of any actual agreed-upon meaning will lead to completely rational defensiveness on the person so insulted.

Why rational? Basically everyone is misogynist. Occasionally it shows. I certainly am. I don't know why people get so I DO NOT HATE WOMEN about it all.

128: So when people accuse you of being a racist, you just go, "Totally!"

129: The civilized thing to do would be to think about what I just said or did that inspired the comment, and check whether there was something wrong with it. "Totally" would imply agreement and approval, which seems off.

Basically everyone is misogynist.

So the word is essentially meaningless? Perhaps we would be better off with a word that describes the level of misongynistic behavior we are displaying at a particular time.

"Wow, LB, you are being M-9 today!"

So when people accuse you of being a racist, you just go, "Totally!" no more than usual.

131: as SCMT was pointing out, this is always a problem when you are talking about a trait that is both considered to be bad, and also to whatever degree the default position of the society at large. If you are calling out people for default behaviours & attitudes because they are misogynist/racist/whatever, you're probably missing the point a bit.

So when people accuse you of being a racist, you just go burn a cross on their lawn.

If you are calling out people for default behaviours & attitudes because they are misogynist/racist/whatever, you're probably missing the point a bit.

What if your point is to draw attention to and censure those default behaviors? "Default" doesn't mean "okay".

Capital W-Will, I claim that the distinction between "everyone has a certain quality", and the concept of that quality is essentially meaningless is clear to everyone. Everyone of a certain quality, that is.

[Tangential: Why is the Internet obsessed with "calling" people "on" things? It has even crept into comic books written by Internet-happy young writers. Comic books about Vikings, I'll add. What does "calling" someone "on" something do? Is it like "holding" somebody "accountable"? I don't ask to be more sarcastic than usual; for years I've been averse to language like that, as it tends to emanate from high school principals and other stuffed shirts and to be unaccompanied by specifics.]

137: I've always assumed it to be a sports metaphor, as in calling a foul on a player who fouls. It is not exactly like holding someone accountable; it's more making the initial accusation.

some sort of Amish network security engineer

Wow, that sounds hottt!

So the word is essentially meaningless?

Basically everyone has an anus, and anuses ain't meaningless.

If you are calling out people for default behaviours & attitudes because they are misogynist/racist/whatever, you're probably missing the point a bit.

Like LB, the point is kinda to make people reconsider the default attitudes, especially when the default attitudes are bad. I, for example, consider it a personal mission to help various people in my life understand when they're being sexist, applying a double standard, slut-shaming, etc. I miss a lot of it, but when I do notice it, if it's someone I either care about a lot or dislike (in such a way that I want to get after them), I'll tell them why what they've said/what they believe/what they did is problematic.

Many people find this tiresome, but hey, someone's gotta do it.

anuses ain't meaningless

What is the meaning of an anus?

142 is a rhetorical question; each anus has its own special meaning. Mine, for example, means business.

Mine means you no harm.

he also knew that she had a boyfriend, which he pointed out to her, only to hear "I like guys with courage." Yikes.

Now this, this is hilarious.

"What? Doesn't anyone want to battle to the death over my favors? I mean that little to you?"

On the other hand, I may be quoting a Carlos Mencia routine here.

Mine means five.

But seriously, this:

Basically everyone is misogynist.

is untrue and counter productive. For instance, if I look it up in the dictionary I find that it refers to someone who hates, dislikes or mistrusts women. For me this is no more true for women than it is for any class of people.

The business of America is Apo's anus.

Mine is a means to an end.

Basically everyone is misogynist.

means everyone has misogynistic tendencies, because we live in a misogynistic culture and aren't able to perfectly discard what we've internalized, even if we are trying to. Even you, F.

Doesn't the categorical imperative require that Heebie's ass be treated as an end in itself?

Wouldn't my anus be the means to it? If you're coming from my intestines?

I'm going to have to defer to the philosophers on that one. Labs, specifically.

Dear god. Before I wade in on this thread, I want to point out that Adam's post about women personal ad users is possibly the only thing I've ever seen that (1) makes fun of women; (2) is funny; (3) is not at all sexist.

That's not sexist? But it includes generalizations!

Besides, men write that sort of thing too.

If you're coming from my intestines

I don't think you're doing it right.

154: Did you just call Adam a woman?

LeBlanc is right, and I find it infuriating and ironic that we have people admitting to misogyny in this thread (hurrah) *and* saying that, since it's so common, we really shouldn't have a word for it, because pointing it out is mean. Think, people.

I don't think you're doing it right.

You have no idea what my frat was like.

Haven't we had this discussion several times already? Like, at least 50? And it's always the same problem.

People think that pointing out something as misogynist is a big deal, thus, pointing it out is construed as an aggressive position.

Then people insist that it isn't a big deal, that it's just a minor stain on your soul.

Then the first people wonder why it's worth pointing out if it's such a little thing.

God, people. Everyone agrees that we live in a sexist and misogynist culture, right? Right. So why are there so many people who think they are Perfect Special Flowers that are totally impervious to internalizing any of it, even though it's been fucking omnipresent since the goddamned dawn of time?

Doesn't that seem improbable.

Think, people.

Speciesist.

We thought we were the exception to those stereotypes and could do anything we wanted, which turned out to be whatever we thought men wanted.

This is a really common, possibly universal, phase of feminist awareness. The world is hard, man.

153: You know, Ned, there would be more point in actually discussing these things with you if you'd, like, actually try to discuss them rather than just predictably mugging for the imagined anti-feminist audience.

fucking omnipresent since the goddamned dawn of time

That language is not very ladylike, leblanc.

So if she has a sex drive, but was raised in a sex vacuum, and then exposed to misogynistic porn, I think she's going to believe that men are entitled to treat women like sex objects, which is going to take a hit on her self-esteem.

You know is the first identifiable fantasy that I can remember? I must have been 9 or 10, and thought about how hot it would be to be a stripper. Shit is fucked up, man.

Neither is my anus, but no one else is complaining.

It's immensely reassuring to know that if I were to drop dead tomorrow, LeBlanc would carry on.

I've been meaning to talk to you about that, actually.

It's the combination of 'I must call this out' with 'but it's not really a big deal' that bothers me. To the extent it's worth pointing out, it is a big deal.

All anuses are lady-like, as many a sailor on the high seas has discovered.

167 to 165!

I honestly have no idea what "misogyny" means. I honestly have no idea what "sexism" means. Everyone seems to have their own definitions of these words, meaning that they are not that useful for critcizing people since the person so criticized is likely to say "well, it didn't fit into my definition of sexism, so I guess we'll have to agree to disagree". I try and fail to stay out of these discussions because I honestly have no idea what statements of mine are likely to be characterized with these words.

I should read some books about the topic, but they're incredibly boring.

It is appreciated when someone points out why someone's opinion is misogynist. The word itself is useless.

159: The deal is that it's significantly bad behavior, so worth pointing out, that's completely conventional, so it doesn't necessarily make you a worse person than anyone else you'd think of. The behavior can be worth identifying and discouraging without being a marker of a particularly bad person.

168: The problem is that the pointer-outers have to do two things. One, point it out; and two, reassure the people who are Immediately Offended! that we don't mean them, personally, ill, and we don't think that they, personally, are especially evil.

Misogyny is a big deal *because* it is so common. The fact that it is so common means that any *single* instance of it isn't, in and of itself, that big a deal.

Does that help?

I should read some books about the topic, but they're incredibly boring.

I know! Stupid feminists can't even write a stupid book that's not stupid boring!

Or what LB said.

Well "it's not a big deal" is really more like "it doesn't mean you are a horrible person," not "it doesn't matter." So the point is to have a conversation like this:

"Amy is hot, but she's whore-hot."
"Dude, that's pretty sexist."
"Really? Why?"
"[explanation]"
"Huh. Well I didn't mean it that way/it was an inside joke/you are totally right/whatever other continuation of the conversation I want to have."

Not
OH MY GOD HOW COULD YOU SAY THAT ABOUT ME?!??!?!?

Or what LB, Bitch, or Heebie said.

OH MY GOD HOW COULD YOU SAY THAT ABOUT ME?!??!?!?

[long conversation, followed by]

AND WHY IS IT THAT YOU ALWAYS INSIST WE HAVE THESE BORING CONVERSATIONS???!!! GOD YOU'RE HUMORLESS.

Quick! Somebody accuse somebody of racism.

171: I honestly have no idea what "misogyny" means. I honestly have no idea what "sexism" means.

I'm sure this is intended to state something honestly, but it's simply can't be true. There's a whole spectrum of utterances and behaviors where you'd successfully identify them as sexist or misogynist just as anyone else here would: you know, really glaring shit like "I hate women", or "I don't think women should be allowed to take men's jobs," or what have you. You're worried about edge cases, which is reasonable, but it doesn't make the concepts incoherent or useless.

It is appreciated when someone points out why someone's opinion is misogynist.

If this is the sort of thing you would appreciate, you could ask. Someone says "[Statement X] is misogynist" and you don't get it, you could say "I don't get it. He doesn't seem to be saying he hates women, what's misogynist about it?" And you might get an answer that made sense to you. Might not, but there's a shot.

Neither is my anus

You should let it do the talking for a day. It might surprise you.

179: You called? Racist.

172, 173: But look, misogyny, like racism, is a really strong term associated with a much worse history than the problems that are often pointed out. It's not anyone's fault that it's a strong term, but when either get thrown out there, because Hating Women and Minorities are a Big Deal. Then as soon as they're offended, you back off, so it's not them personally, it's the culture, or whatever. (I don't normally go around pointing out other cultural norms that irk me.)

While it's no one's intent to do so, it makes the discussion seem disinterestedly academic. Well, if we're all misogynist, and I personally didn't do anything egregiously bad by the standards of my culture, then these feminists are just overreacting.

I don't know how to get around that conclusion, but I think it's the one that people draw. Were I designing the world, I'd give the kind of weak-tea-no-one's-fault-I'm-a-racist-misogynist-too points their own term.

Actually, the way these conversations usually go with my sainted boyfriend is:

"[sexist comment]"
"stop being such a sexist, you punk."
"but I'm a sexy sexist."
"whatever."
"whatever, humorless feminist."
"no, seriously, that's some bullshit and you know it."
"you know I love the vagina. why would you slander me like that?"

[two hours later]

"by the way, you were totally right about that thing earlier. i concede."
"excellent. wanna fuck?"

One, point it out; and two, reassure the people who are Immediately Offended! that we don't mean them, personally, ill, and we don't think that they, personally, are especially evil.

But you do mean them, personally.

Inherent in what the pointer-outers do, even if they are saying "You're sexist, but I'm sexist too, we're all sexist in this society" is "...but at least I don't go around saying sexist things like that in public." There's no way you can avoid that implication. This is why only people who are extremely good at arguing bother to point these things out, because like sexism, defensiveness is inherent in our personalities.

"excellent. wanna fuck?"

Wait, weren't you just going at it for two hours?

Cala and Ned, I'm asking sincerely: what do you propose? That the "pointer-outers" stop pointing out sexism and misogyny when they see it? Or that they only point it out when the person making the comment/taking the action is an Objective Horrible Person, befitting scorn?

My god, Joan Toast was right.

I think leblanc's misogny comment is completely true, but I wonder if it's effective tactics, basically because it leads to conversations like the above.

183: I don't think that makes 'misogyny' the wrong term. Think of your beloved but racist grandfather (not that you necessarily had one -- mine both died when I was young enough that I couldn't tell you about their racial politics). You love him, and he's a good person, but he grew up in another era and learned some fucked-up shit and still believes it. Being a good person with a perfectly good cultural-norms based excuse for being a racist doesn't make racist the wrong word for him, but it does mean that while you're going to try to improve his behavior, you don't necessarily think ill of him as a person.

185, 183: So the take-home message is to be gentler about pointing out someone's misogyny, from the outset?

weren't you just going at it for two hours?

No, duh, I withhold sex until I get what I want, which is abject servitude. Isn't that what all the feminists/women do?

I wonder if it's effective tactics

I can tell you that it may not work on the internet, but it sure as hell works with people who actually give a shit about what you think. I can think of at least ten people who have told me "you know, conversations with you have really helped me to start identifying the prevalence of sexism in media/culture/jokes/the music industry/legal systems/whatever." I'm not saying this to toot my own horn, but it does work.

In fairness, it's a lot easier to figure out where you stand when sex is withheld throughout the year than when you have to wait until the end of the sexual year to figure out what you owe.

Adam's post about women personal ad users is possibly the only thing I've ever seen that (1) makes fun of women; (2) is funny; (3) is not at all sexist.

That's because the things he's pointing out aren't specific to women. Men use those same clichés in personal ads all the time.

The civilized thing to do would be to think about what I just said or did that inspired the comment, and check whether there was something wrong with it. "Totally" would imply agreement and approval, which seems off.

To be clear, my only disagreement with leblanc was that she didn't seem to be allowing for the possibility that the person accused of misogyny might disagree. Hence "Totally!" as unthinking agreement to any similar charge so made.

Also, 168 is completely right. For pointer-outers: the potential lesson is that you want to think about whether your usage is diluting the charge, and to perhaps save the charge for when the nuclear option is warranted. More people learning this lesson might've spared us some of the more ludicrous scrying/counter-scrying about supposedly sexist/racist comments during the primaries, just to take one example.

It's helpful to distinguish between misogynistic behavior and being a misogynist. Pointing out the former can be worthwhile, even helpful if the person in question is unaware of it and willing to consider and retract (s/he often isn't). You don't get into "You're a sexist (racist)" territory unless and until the behavior is part of a larger, repeated pattern, perhaps proudly displayed and defended, a misogynistic attitude overall.

197 was me.

187, 193: Look, I agree with that, I just don't think that you can just declare 'racist' a neutral, non-threatening word like 'decorated in the style of the late 70s.' Like I said, I don't have a solution. But it isn't a tactic that I see working, generally. (It works on your boyfriend. I suspect perverse incentives, because by that argument, shivbunny loves doing the dishes more than anything else in the world because two hours later we'll have sex.)

I'm personally inclined to say, yeah, well, if you keep insisting on your right to make racist jokes after someone points it out, yeah, that does make you an ass. It ain't the culture's fault if you keep insisting on it. (And in the grandfather case, mine is hopelessly racist, and 80, and I don't bring it up.)

I can tell you that it may not work on the internet, but it sure as hell works with people who actually give a shit about what you think. I can think of at least ten people who have told me "you know, conversations with you have really helped me to start identifying the prevalence of sexism in media/culture/jokes/the music industry/legal systems/whatever." I'm not saying this to toot my own horn, but it does work.

I absolutely agree with this. Whenever someone I respect points out something like this in real life, I do give it serious thought.

I don't know bitchphd or m. leblanc personally. They aren't my friends. I don't know if I should respect them as people or just as good writers. All I know about them is that they like to argue on the internet, and they are more than 100 times as likely as anyone else to point out when something on Unfogged is misogynist or sexist or both. Therefore, the easiest thing to do is to ignore whatever they say on this subject, even though that's not the right thing to do.

This forum is not good for changing people's minds, and it may have no power at all to change people's behavior.

196: Yeah, that wasn't clear. People talk as if "misogynist" or "racist" were so inflammatory that the use of either would automatically stop rational discussion, and I don't think that should be true. But of course false accusations of either are perfectly possible; you just shouldn't assume that "I'm a good person, so what I said couldn't possibly have been racist/misogynist" without thinking through the specifics.

But after your 196, I don't think we disagree.

she didn't seem to be allowing for the possibility that the person accused of misogyny might disagree

Seriously? I would have to be an amnesiac in order to think this. It's certainly happened to me enough times.

But of course false accusations of either are perfectly possible

I'd probably say "good faith disagreements," as I think they're probably more frequent than "false accusations," but, as you say, I don't think we disagree.

All I know about them is that they like to argue on the internet, and they are more than 100 times as likely as anyone else to point out when something on Unfogged is misogynist or sexist or both. Therefore, the easiest thing to do is to ignore whatever they say on this subject, even though that's not the right thing to do.

At that point, though, you're not talking about whether the wording used is inflammatory. You're just saying that you don't respect B or m.leblanc enough to evaluate your behavior based on their commentary. Which, no one says you have to, but there's no point in arguing about whether they've made their points in the most effective possible way if that's what's going on.

This forum is not good for changing people's minds, and it may have no power at all to change people's behavior.

That may be true for you, but I don't think it's categorically the case (or maybe I'm just malleable). But I have been profoundly influenced by some arguments I've come across made by people I've come to trust on the internet.

So, point taken, but pardon me if I keep trying.

People talk as if "misogynist" or "racist" were so inflammatory that the use of either would automatically stop rational discussion, and I don't think that should be true.

This may just be the point of disagreement. Outside of certain circles, it is inflammatory. And it does stop conversation.

It occurs to me that nobody gets bent out of shape over being called a misanthrope. I thus conclude that it is morally acceptable to be full of hate as long as you are equitable about it.

191: Right. And that's always been the take-home message. And yet, when people do, in fact, become much less aggressive about this stuff, it still isn't gentle enough. Funny how that works.

183: Well, look. I honestly think that in *these* comment threads, we, the humorless feminists, have gone quite a long way to try in good faith to get around that conclusion, but it does kind of feel like there's a catch-22 going on: if we're pithy and to the point, we're being mean, but if we try to explain, we're being pedantic and boring and omg we've had this conversation a hundred times already. Plus, we do all go around pointing out irksome cultural norms--immigration nonsense, patent illogic, liberal shibboleths--Unfogged is basically a series of posts and commentary about irksome culttural norms. It's just that some irksome cultural norms don't generate as much argument when people point them out.

200: Actually, despite my jokes above, I've got a pretty ridiculously high sex drive, so people I'm dating have not found it necessary to do or say things they don't believe just to get me to have sex with them. I'm pretty much up for it.

210: Yes, that was a joke. I figure no one here actually withholds sex over dishes or political conversations.

Oh. Heh.

CALA U IZ MIZOGYSEXIST PLS CAN HAVE ARGUMENT

211: I'll be damned if I'm going to have sex with William F. Buckley's corpse.

INVISIBLE MISOGYNY

The conclusion is that one should refrain from pointing out misogynistic or racist behavior because it stops conversation, because the behavior is often in keeping with existing cultural norms?

209: And yet, when people do, in fact, become much less aggressive about this stuff, it still isn't gentle enough.

I used to call people anti-Semitic for using the word "neoconservative." Now I just call them anti-Semitic for not liking Shakira, and the bastards still aren't happy.

it sure as hell works with people who actually give a shit about what you think. I can think of at least ten people who have told me "you know, conversations with you have really helped me to start identifying the prevalence of sexism in media/culture/jokes/the music industry/legal systems/whatever." I'm not saying this to toot my own horn, but it does work.

It works on the internet, too. I get these emails and messages occasionally. Most recently from someone who comments on Unfogged, and who can choose to identify himself or not as he pleases.

Also, LB's 205 gets it exactly right. Either one is willing to extend the benefit of the doubt, or one is not. LeBlanc and I don't work for you; there are other folks here who like us just fine.

I figure no one here actually withholds sex over dishes or political conversations.

Actually when I'm pissed I have zero interest in sex with the person I'm pissed at, so yeah: if there's been an argument over dishes or politics, there will be no nookie.

I think it's amusing that I'm identified as an evil obnoxious pointer-outer when I hardly even comment here anymore. Once a regular, always a regular, I guess.

I'll be damned if I'm going to have sex with William F. Buckley's corpse

Yeah, that'd probably qualify you.

Well, plus it's clear that the evil obnoxious pointer-outers love you. You're in the cabal, baby.

Yeah, that's why I usually try to resolve the dishes/politics, then go for the nookie.

Or you can have the hatesex, then make up later.

221: that'd be awkward. We'd have to avoid each other at all the social occasions.

223 to 219, but it strangely seems to work to 222.

Hatesex isn't in my repertoire. And I'm stubborn enough that, sadly, the other person has to be the one to extend the olive branch if there's nookie to be had. I can be the peacemaker, but then I'll be pissed about having to pander, and the end result is the same, nookie-wise.

Perhaps there is/should be a better word for unthinkingly discriminatory than misogynist?

Why?

Hatesex isn't in my repertoire

Missing. Out.

I doubt there's a consensus that there ought to be a milder word, F.

Because my dictionary says they're not the same?

Because the reason people get their backs up when you accuse them of misogyny is that the dictionary definition includes that trigger word "hate"?

Because you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar?

Hatesex is too ugly for me. I'd rather drop an E and have hatsex.

216: Or maybe just not throw the word around lightly.

229: I have to leave *some* of the goodies for other people. It's not ladylike to be greedy.

Just to clear things up, the times are few and far between that Feminists On The Internet say to people "you are a MISOGYNIST!" If the term misogyny is used, it's usually "what you said/this law/that article/your argument is misogynist." So I really see no need to coddle people with "I know you didn't MEAN IT, you weren't THINKING, but little old me just doesn't like this!"

Or most importantly we avoid the Tweedledum problem:

"A word means exactly what I want it to mean; no more, no less."

233: Or maybe people could lighten up.

231: misanthrope. Arachnophobe. Grammar Nazi.

LeBlanc, I wish you had chat at work.

I'm all in favour of throwing words around lightly.

Misanthrope and grammar Nazi I'll cop to. Arachnophobe not so much. Maybe drosophilaphobe?

I think it's awesome that the misogynistic behavior that started this whole thing was heebie speculating that self-esteem issues might be the cause of AWB's roommate identifying random dudes with impressive collections of pornographic MPEG files and knocking on their doors to try to give them blowjobs.

I'm in favor of dropping really, really heavy words on some people's toes.

Because you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar?

This is very near to the age-old question when dealing with discrimination: Should those who are on the short end of the stick demand change now, this instant, because the status quo is intolerable, or should change should be eased in gradually over time?

I personally find the status quo intolerable, and believe that change that is eased in gradually will never actually come to pass.

Hey, I'm just using teh big words in honor of Buckley.

240: cunt.

I've never really had hate sex, but guilt sex isn't all that bad and I'd guess it's pretty similar. (For our earnest American friends who are scared of the word "misogynist" this is a Britishism; what we call "guilt sex" is more or less the same as what you call "sex")

I could chat with you if you were on, lady.

I used to think that these were unpleasant discussions that we should try to bring to some kind of conclusion, but it turns out that y'all just really like talking about misogyny.

247: so not a holdover from the days of Papism, then?

249: conclusivist.

but it turns out that y'all just really like talking about misogyny.

Yeah, I kinda do.

235: Some of us read comments threads in feminist blogosphere, you know.

237: Yes! Lighten up! Extend the benefit of the doubt! All of this is awesome advice, I like it.

I'll say that this political campaign has made me a lot more comfortable with using the term misogynist. Seeing the shit that is just openly said about HRC in mainstream venues is simply astonishing, and powerful evidence of how ubiquitous misogyny is.

I was talking with a friend today about how weird it is that people have been pretty careful in talking about BHO, for fear of being racist, but are much freer being pretty openly misogynist in talking about HRC. It's like even a clueless white male "gets" racist code language enough to avoid it, but is totally comfortable with sexist code language. My theory is that it's OK in polite company to talk about gender differences (and we all have friends of the other gender), but very touchy to talk about race differences - we rely on Chris Rock for that.

Please, please don't let this turn into a political discussion - I'm purely talking about the noncontroversial subjects of racism and sexism.

I find it remarkable that people can imagine that no one's going to get his back up about being called a misogynist when we just had a several hundred comment thread that consisted of white people arguing with other white people about whether some fairly gentle ribbing at a blog making fun of white people--produced by white people--was over the line. And to give her the due she's owed, B was on the side of goodness and decency and that little mercy called laughter on that one. (As was, IIRC, Cala.)

You catch more flies with honey than vinegar, but you kick more arse with Doc Martens than ballet slippers. So you pay your money and take your choice really. Don't bring a knife to a gun fight. Or to an airport, apparently, bastards.

Oh yeah, by the way fuckers, the 30km/week roadwork regime has worked. I just had my first official print at "not overweight" in five years. I am officially not overweight, you fat cunts (particularly ttaM). The medical history of my family suggests that having conquered my weight problem, I have a short five year window before thyroid cancer or something equally virulent sets in, so I am going to be making the most of it boasting wise, btw.

252: Me too.
253.1: Those aren't these; we don't all look alike.
253.2: Sigh.

We should just drop the word "misogyny" in its accusatory usage and replace it with some sort of clearly recognizable and unambiguous physical gesture, like a kick in the crotch.

252: misogynolophile.

No one asked me, but the problem I have with this whole misogyny deal is that it seems to proceed off comparing everything to this Kantian ideal world, where we all value each other as ends, never means, and the most important thing about us is our inviolable dignity as a thinking subject, etc. Well, that's BS, it's just not reality. Even as an ideal, it's problematic in ways that people don't acknowledge.

Our conscious "personhood" as a thinking subject -- our opinions, life plans, etc. -- is very often not what other people value us for, and they are often not the most interesting or beautiful things about us. People often don't particularly want to be free, they'd often prefer to be swept away by something larger than themselves. And that's not irrational. Sex can be large, it can feel liberatory in that sense, and perhaps that's the source of some of those "misogynistic" sexual fantasies referred to above that women might have.

I suppose one reason some think the society is so misogynistic is that the stereotypical demands on men so closely align with our idealized notions of individual authority and autonomy.

I occasionally think, along the lines of John's Grice Fund for intellectual charity, that the "benefit of the doubt" is certainly one of the benefits that might be ripe for some sort of welfare reform. I am OK extending the benefit of the doubt for short periods in genuinely deserving cases, but it has to be a hand-up not a hand-out, and if someone appears to be living their whole life as a dole recipient of the benefit of the doubt, at some point society needs to cut them loose.

254: I'll say that this political campaign has made me a lot more comfortable with using the term misogynist.

Seeing the amount of shit that was indiscriminately flung at BHO and his supporters on account of MSM misogyny was pretty annoying.

255: B was on the side of goodness and decency

Oh, she usually is.

I am just itching for an excuse to use the phrase "you misogynistic cunt!" by the way, so don't be surprised if it starts showing up more or less completely divorced from any reasonable context, particularly if I get a few fingers more down this bottle of Chivas.

255: We know that people are going to get their backs up. And just like in the white people thread, I'm going to point out that they're being tiresomely defensive when they do.

misogynolophile.

Doesn't it need to have "talking" in there? I'm a misogynoversophile.

It's extra-special because "gyn-over" snuck in there, which sounds dirty.

262 was me. And I'm totally behind 263, excellent.

All I know about them is that they like to argue on the internet, and they are more than 100 times as likely as anyone else to point out when something on Unfogged is misogynist or sexist or both. Therefore, the easiest thing to do is to ignore whatever they say on this subject, even though that's not the right thing to do.

First of all, you should have named LB too.

Second, the fact that someone specializes in a topic is a good reason to read their stuff, rather than a reason not to. I often disagree with B, but she's almost the official all-nternet representative of a certain point of view and a good person to got to on those topics. For example, if you want to know what "misogyny" and "sexism" mean.

MISOBGYNOLOLCAT?!

Yeah that's kind of your schtick, B.

Wait, who was 262???!!!???

263: Drink up, you misogynistic cunt.

I suppose one reason some think the society is so misogynistic is that the stereotypical demands on men so closely align with our idealized notions of individual authority and autonomy.

And the stereotypical demands on women closely align with notions of docility and big warm bosoms. Ya think?

254: It really has been just bullshit. CNN posts a comment by a woman who says, roughly, My husband says I am moody, and he is right, and all women are moody, so Hillary shouldn't be president because we don't need a moody person in the Oval Office.

I can't imagine that being considered appropriate for the airwaves if it were about being black, and Obama.

265: gyn-over tew the hawnky tawnk gin drahnk some bears.

Uh oh, I'm starting to drown in the good will here. This isn't good; can't you people go back to abusing me?

Which isn't to say misogyny doesn't exist. Especially on that freelance bullying level. It's just that I think some of the standard static between men and women as human animals who have clashing desires which can only be satisfied through the cooperation of the other gets chalked up to it.

I realise that I am a stuck record on the theme of the Gordian solution to all these issues - that the correct thing to do is give up on one's own self image as a good person who always does the right thing - but I'm going to keep on fucking boring on about it because it's right. It's like the time I got sent on compulsory diversity training for a) jokes about Polish employees avoiding income tax b) a couple of borderline homophobic epithets. I had to do the walk of shame to the personnel department and we all had to admit that I was more or less completely in the wrong, but my feathers did not fall off and I am still here. It's a strangely liberating feeling and as long as you make a good faith effort not to re-offend, the pooves, wogs, birds and assorted Eastern Europeans are surprisingly understanding.

Our conscious "personhood" as a thinking subject -- our opinions, life plans, etc. -- is very often not what other people value us for, and they are often not the most interesting or beautiful things about us.

This reminds me (a bit unfairly, sorry, PGD) of the seductive (but deeply problematic) spiritual trajectory mapped out for Jane in C. S. Lewis' That Hideous Strength. Why I mention this, I don't know, since only about two other people here have even read the book, I think. But anyway, this is true, of course. But I don't think there's any reason to think it means there's something wrong with objecting to systematic ways that people are inclined to feel certain special disdain for -- for example -- that which is female or feminine.

I do think that, while claiming somebody is being misogynist might occasionally produce results, accusing them of being defensive is pretty much totally pointless, as it instantly devolves into "nuh uh!" "yuh huh!" etcetera.

260: Well, if your point is that there's all sorts of bullshit out there and it's maybe a little self-indulgent to be so hung up on this one version of it, then fair enough.

If your point is that because there's so much bullshit out there, there's not a lot of point in caring about sexism, then you suck.

It's just that I think some of the standard static between men and women as human animals who have clashing desires which can only be satisfied through the cooperation of the other gets chalked up to it.

I think some of the standard static of heterosexual desire and complication is a contributing factor, of course. But why does this mean one should not object to the result? I also think you are working with some very romanticized notions of "women" and "men" as abstract entities engaged in an eternal something or other. It's not a notion entirely ungrounded in reality, but it's a romantic abstraction all the same.

276: that the correct thing to do is give up on one's own self image as a good person who always does the right thing

Applicable in all directions, ergo someone who demands the right to use the word "nigger" in the workplace is an ass, as is someone who launches an anti-defamation campaign over the use of the word "niggardly." (Yes, the latter has happened.)

I had to do the walk of shame to the personnel department and we all had to admit that I was more or less completely in the wrong, but my feathers did not fall off and I am still here. It's a strangely liberating feeling and as long as you make a good faith effort not to re-offend, the pooves, wogs, birds and assorted Eastern Europeans are surprisingly understanding.

Yup. Also, it's my answer to 278: really, it's for your own good, sweetie.

accusing them of being defensive is pretty much totally pointless

Agreed. Similarly, the only circumstances in which you should tell someone to calm down and chill out are those obtaining when what you really want is to make him or her explode into a rage of resentment.

280: Yes.

281: Well, yeah, the "niggardly" thing was just patently stupid. Didn't everyone agree about that at the time?

283: You people have no sense of humor.

Similarly, the only circumstances in which you should tell someone to calm down and chill out are those obtaining when what you really want is to make him or her explode into a rage of resentment

ie; all the time.

Part of the problem is that words like racist, misogynist, and feminist get used as cudgels, whether deliberately or not. I actually do think that some traits that are coded as feminine are weak and bad, and I'm happy to discuss that (or was, back in the day), but I have no interest in defending myself from charges of misogyny or anti-feminism or whatever. Even when I think that the people calling me that are taking what are, in effect and by my lights, anti-feminist positions, it's just a stupid discussion about who gets to claim the mantel, who gets to frame the argument, etc.

279: I think it's more what comes of it. I write an impassioned critique of the deep misogyny of bras. I call anyone who wears them a slave to misogyny. Then, when it's pointed out that I wear a bra, and lots of women wear bras and believe they can be independent, I say, 'well, it still is misogynist, we all make our choices, but think about it, don't be defensive.'

It's the mismatch (separate from this discussion) that bothers me. If it's okay for me to wear a bra, then why am I using the same word to describe it that I would if I were doing something I should stop?

I don't think it's a reason not to point out things, but I don't think it's just some ideal of herself as a good person that makes my interlocutor defensive.

285: Sure. I'm not judging you.

284.3: a similarly pointless thing to say.

286: "mantle".

284.2: Just a general example. I'm not alleging that this thread is quite that stupid.

The thread's cooling down, and it's not even at 300. We're all getting old.

If it's okay for me to wear a bra, then why am I using the same word to describe it that I would if I were doing something I should stop?

If X really is a problematic feature of our society, then calling on an individual woman to personally reject it is asking quite a lot of her. If lots of women believe they are independent and yet do X, then they may not have fully realized the impact X has on their life.

If it's okay for me to wear a bra, then why am I using the same word to describe it that I would if I were doing something I should stop?

Because you're striving for intellectual honesty? Or presenting an argument that you have with yourself?

(In re. defensive, I honestly do not know what else to say when convos about sexism inevitably end up with a number of people talking about how mean/humorless/accusatory/irrational/bullshit it is for Teh Feminists to be saying this stuff. Why is saying "that's defensive" so much worse than saying "that's mean/humorless/accusatory/irrational/bullshit"?)

286: "mantle".

Suck my cock, bitch.

This forum is not good for changing people's minds,

Add me to the list of people who have had opinions shifted based on reading unfogged. I think, compared to many internet forums, that unfogged is relatively persuasive because people reveal enough of themselves that they build up a significant amount of respect.

293: the idea would be for both sides to be making intellectually coherent arguments, yeah? So if somebody says "that's mean because X" then you could say "you're being defensive, and the reason is because Y."

I think it's when people feel like they're trying to engage on the merits of, say, whether "misogynist" has a consistent and useful definition, and they get called "defensive", that they become defensive. But then, maybe everybody is just being oversensitive. Certainly I have been on occasion.

293: mean/humorless/accusatory/irrational/bullshit

I dunno, this seems a bit defensive to me.

216: Or maybe just not throw the word around lightly.

Agreed, the word is thrown around too lightly, when something more convoluted would be more accurate and explanatory, like: That contributes to a male-dominated vision of women as primarily sexbots, recipients of the male gaze, something that women then internalize, to their detriment. Blah, blah.

I'm not sure comments like that would really be an improvement.

In any event, there has been a conclusion here, which is to lay off unpleasant conversation-stoppers.

I think a more realistic example than wearing a bra is dieting. There is deep misogyny to the dieting industry, to weight, on and on and on. Hardly any woman out there is immune to it. If she claims to be independent and yet diets ferociously, I question whether or not she realizes the impact that dieting has on her life.

Yet a woman could write an impassioned critique of dieting, and still diet, and not be defensive, but just acknowledge where she is on that struggle.

292, 293: In a classroom context, yes. In a context where 'everyone is a little racist/sexist' is a nod-along truth, yes. But I'm with ogged in that I think outside of those contexts, the words carry a lot of baggage.

For my grandfather, being racist meant you were the guy that burned crosses on lawns, not the guy that locked up his truck in certain neighborhoods and got along with your black neighbor Joe. Using 'racist' to mean 'self-congratulatory about voting for that Obama guy' would go over his head.

294: so you're trying to claim the fireplace? The "mantle" you might want to claim is a kind of garment, so you can metaphorically wrap yourself in the cloak of feminism.

I've been at work, but I wanted to respond to 242 that I don't think Heebie is a misogynist. I hate talk about "self-esteem" issues because, to my ears, it always comes out sounding like second-waver stuff about how women are these poor hobbled beings from birth who can't make choices about anything because they're programmed to loathe themselves and spread their legs for daddy. And that's not a narrative I recognize as mine, nor do I recognize it in any of the women I've ever known. I'm sure it applies to someone, but when it does get applied to me and people I know, my response is feeling like it doesn't solve anything; it's just yet another way of pitying teh wimmins rather than making their lives better.

At least, my response to my roommate's situation was not "You poor thing! If only you could learn to love yourself, then you'd make all the right decisions," but "Man, we gotta get some proper sex ed up in here, for boys and girls." And since I didn't have much more knowledge than she did, I wasn't the one to do it.

All I wanted to say is that I didn't at all mean to piss on Heebie's good name by accusing her of misogyny. I just think certain language is tied to conceptions of women that I can't get on-board with.

The "mantle" you might want to claim is a kind of garment, so you can metaphorically wrap yourself in the cloak of feminism.

Shit, of course you're right. Cock retracted.

294: Suck mine. To "claim the mantle" means to claim (or, sometimes, "don") a cloak or hood that signifies authority; not to claim a fucking fireplace, you foreign weirdo.

301: The mantle I want to claim is that suit Viggo Mortensen was wearing at the Oscars.

*wonders why people think he's gay*

Cock: unsucked! I proudly claim the mantle of little bitchery!

Or, to use heebie's dieting example, if the person hears 'dieting is misogynistic' and thinks 'that means dieting is evil and wrong and should be stopped at all costs like paying women less for doing the same work' and then hears 'but I don't judge anyone for dieting', it's going to sound weird.

Maybe I'm wrong on the data, but I see this as an argument primarily about language.

297: It is indeed.

I've been waiting ages for someone to be clever enough to point that out, so that I could acknowledge it. See how easy?

254 is the kind of pablum I expect to hear from a Clinton supporter. Or Obama supporter. Whatever I need to say to make a political argument break out.

Bras are Teh Misogyny? Because I read National Geographic, and gravity is not a friend to the ladies.

On a related note, my mom tells a childhood story of an older male family friend whose testicles were literally peeking out of the bottom of his shorts when he sat down.

Do I really need to upgrade from perl 5.8.7 to perl 5.8.8r1 in order to install subversion?

308 is definitely some kind of logical fallacy. I bet it even has a name.

307: It might sound weird to them, but the paradox is real and unavoidable. And it's possible that they might start to see the pervasiveness of misogynistic standards in our society, and broaden their perspective on what the struggles really are, instead of a straw-feminist cliche.

308: You are officially No Fun.

310.2 to 311.

Because I read National Geographic, and gravity is not a friend to the ladies.

I continue to love gswift, the misogynistic cunt.

I also think you are working with some very romanticized notions of "women" and "men" as abstract entities engaged in an eternal something or other. It's not a notion entirely ungrounded in reality, but it's a romantic abstraction all the same.

That's true and a good catch. But it's also an abstraction to say that men and women are simply non-gendered individuals, etc. That abstracts away from reality as well in certain ways. At least my abstraction is romantic.

I don't think there's any reason to think it means there's something wrong with objecting to systematic ways that people are inclined to feel certain special disdain for -- for example -- that which is female or feminine.

It's funny -- I think one thing I was groping toward was sort of that certain ideas about sexism and misogyny can themselves be sort of "misogynistic" in a way. I think our society undervalues traditionally female strengths. Although I don't think women are necessarily that much naturally better at those strengths than men are (maybe a little better, hard to say), the gender has been "assigned" them historically. Which in our current social structure can be a material disadvantage. But maybe the problem isn't that the feminine is oppressive, but that our society isn't "feminine" enough.

Of course as soon as you say that your realize that contempt for the feminine as an ideal (as opposed to women in particular, who have the freedom to be ass-kickers just like men) is a huge problem and a huge issue.

Sigh. The figure of the female ass-kicking martial artist, killer robot, special forces warrior, etc. that's becoming so common in the movies is pretty interesting. All ass-kicking, all the time, that's the American ideal!

317 sort of veered wildly into D/n B/stian territory towards the end there.

You shouldn't, Ben, at least for 1.3.x:

Subversion command-line client, version 1.3.2.
This is perl, v5.8.6 built for darwin-thread-multi-2level

I'm surprised you're not hopping on the hq or git bandwagons.

In a context where 'everyone is a little racist/sexist' is a nod-along truth, yes.

Yeah, I think the real underlying argument is whether Unfogged is such a context or not. I'm firmly on the side that if it's not, it ought to be, since we've got a fairly high bar for basic knowledge in most other areas.

OTOH, my development server has svn 1.4.6 and perl 5.8.8, so maybe subversion 1.4 really does need it.

Ben! Are you going to use subversion for your academic writing? I keep wanting to, but then I also keep using MS Word.

318: Sifu, you misogynist cunt, there's valid disagreement between feminisms as to whether "the feminine" itself should be intrinsically valid or not. No need to bring He Who Must Not Be Named into it.

So 311 wasn't some weird joke I didn't get?

"valid" s/b "valued"

314: Hey, I thoroughly enjoyed that little moment.

(It's actually true; I'm well aware that my harping on about how Some People Keep Calling The Feminists Unfun/Humorless/Mean is me hanging onto old arguments that I really should let go. I have a hard time letting go of things before it is Officially Admitted that I Have a Point. It's a character flaw.)

It's not the joke, Heebie, it's how you tell it.

323: okay, okay, maybe that was unfair. There was a wistfulness to the sigh that I found evocative.

317 sort of veered wildly into D/n B/stian territory towards the end there.

Well, I don't see why a guy has to go to a strip club just to get a hug these days.

I can't believe the scolds are being validated and normalized here. Keep pointing out how something is racist or misogynistic, and I'll keep pointing out that you're humorless and annoying.

323: Right, which is why I was surprised the thread took the turn that it did.

Freddoe Mercury was Indian, and wore a bra.

330: We're winning hearts and minds here, Oggedy. Keep pointing out how humorless and annoying we are, and you're gonna become the scold.

Fredo Mercury? Frodo? Friedl?

Bitch is an annoying scold, but it's unfair to say she's humorless.

You shouldn't, Ben, at least for 1.3.x:

Gentoo wants me to install 1.4.6.

Gentoo can be surprisingly bossy, all things considered.

Ben! Are you going to use subversion for your academic writing? I keep wanting to, but then I also keep using MS Word.

I'm trying it out, anyway. Structured procrastination, baby! I should be writing a prospectus, but instaead I'm reading this book! Plus hey: instant backups, especially since the repository's located in Chicago.

I meant 335 to be funny, but it came out humorless.

I can't believe the scolds are being validated and normalized here. Keep pointing out how something is racist or misogynistic, and I'll keep pointing out that you're humorless and annoying.

I can't believe you used "validated" and "normalized" in a single sentence and expect us to take that sentence seriously. Couldn't work "complicate" in there?

Keep pointing out how something is racist or misogynistic, and I'll keep pointing out that you're humorless and annoying.

Ahem. I could find more, but I'm too lazy.

I for one would be perfectly happy if unfogged did not share a context with a graduate seminar on gender and identity.

I meant 335 to be funny, but it came out humorless.

That's okay, dear, we know you can't help it.

I swear I just thought I saw a configuration message that read "Checking for a working funtimes() ... Yes, it does".

But actually it was "futimes()".

340: Suck it. You get the sports threads.

340: You're outnumbered, or at least out-(number*motivation)ed.

336: you run my high school friend's Linux distro! Swell! It's probably bossy because he's born again.

okay, okay, maybe that was unfair

Obviously comparing anyone to SDB is unfair. But on a more serious note, the difference between the sexist and non-sexist version of what I said in 317 is that the sexist one assigns "femininity" (and its associated labors) entirely to women, whereas the non-sexist version says that everyone should be more "feminine".

The "haven in a heartless world" version of feminine domesticity assigns women the task of softening the harsh world that men create. Which division is bad for both men and women.

Sifu's friend is the maintainer for Ubuntu Christian Edition.

Sifu, it's because all the hot chicks around here are humorless feminists. If you could bring by some hot chicks that weren't humorless feminist, we could get busy with the misogyny.

330: Dude, that's scolding in and of itself.

349 pwned by 333.

Hot chicks that don't correct my grammar would also be good.

Hot chicks that don't correct my grammar would also be good.

Ben, he means you.

We leave the grammar shit to w-lfs-n. Who is admittedly a totally hot chick.

DAMN YOU HEEBIE.

Maybe now that I'm done with my dissertation, I could revisit the subversion plan + moving away from Word. I really haven't enjoyed my brief forays into TeX in the past, but maybe a lot of that has been the fault of the editors I've tried. There's a TeX bundle for TextMate, Snark tells me.

I was sure that the Charlie's Angels movie represented a Fukayaman End of History moment, and that every single action movie from then on would have kick-ass women protagonists. The only way to improve on Godard's formula of a "girl and a gun" is to give the girl the gun.

Also, hot chicks that don't pwn me. Hurry, Sifu, hurry!

Freddo Mercury? But it's the closest to the Sun!

355: The crazy CA wrote his dissertation in LaTex. But he's only happy whilst recompiling kernels, so make of that what you will.

256:

Bastard. I remain a fat fuck.

I wrote my dissertation in LaTex. Yay!

The problem with me and LaTeX might also be attributable to whatever it is that makes me feel that even EndNote is too much trouble. I am a person who puts in parenthetical notations will-he nill-he as she goes and then has to reconstruct her references for the bibliography all at the end.

350: I just noticed that.

Honestly, though, if I were prezident I'd fucking ban the word "annoying" from unfogged vocabulary. "Humorless" is okay because it's sometimes true, and there's no shame to admitting humorlessness about something or other. There's no response to "annoying," which is used as a cudgel! Don't you know!

I once wrote my resume in TeX. Because I am a feminist.

I am a person who puts in parenthetical notations will-he nill-he

I don't think that this is the right use of "will-he nill-he". Anyway, if you're interested in LaTeX, I recommend that you stop this silly shill-I-shall-Iing and just dive in.

302: It's so nice to find I'm not alone.

363: Stop being so annoying, Parsimon.

I don't think that this is the right use of "will-he nill-he".

Not quite, no.

The trouble is, I'm not interested in LaTeX. I'm interested in Subversion and diffing.

347: no, really, he put together Gentoo, and I believe at one point intended there to be something explicitly Christian about it.

Ben, why did you steal my tt tags?

I for one would be perfectly happy if unfogged did not share a context with a graduate seminar on gender and identity.

Graduate seminar? This is more like a freshman comp class. Okay, maybe sophomore.

I would ban "honestly".

The crazy CA wrote his dissertation in LaTex

That's not crazy, it's completely sane. LaTeX is one of the best possible tools for a document like that.

Maybe now that I'm done with my dissertation, I could revisit the subversion plan + moving away from Word.

Which OS(es) are you using, rfts? For what it's worth, bibtex is much easier to use ime (i.e., less problems), particularly with an editor that understands it.

I'm surprised you're not hopping on the hq or git bandwagons.

Fuck that. Go old school: CVS.

370: Shhh, you're going to make Tweety feel bad.

370: the context of a freshman comp class is that we're all racist and misogynist?

MacOS (10.5).

367: subversion is pretty good, and really very easy to use. if you are mostly using it on your own, i doubt any of the fancier systems will gain you anything.

Ben, why did you steal my tt tags?

I choose to read "tt" as "titty" and maintain that it's to do with this moonlight and this spider and even this demon.

375: So, so pwned. Hahahahaha.

375: Based on the one I took at UCLA in the early '90s, yes.

379: nnoooo... I do know how to read, you know. I also utterly pwned you up above but was nice enough not to mention it.

380: ain't my fault you went to one 'o them commie schools.

375 has an unnecessary question mark.

CVS is old school? What are you people, 12? How annoying. I mean, honestly.

I would also venture to claim I've been enrolled in more undergraduate classes than just about anybody here.

That's a cool superlative, Sifu.

Fuck that. Go old school: CVS.

Since both rfts and I, if I gather aright, will be using these things not for collaboration but for our own personal use, Walt Someguy is surely right and old school is RCS.

376: I know it's not the prettiest or most straightforward editor, but emacs + auctex + reftex is probably the best TeX editor anywhere. It also integrates with subversion (and other revision systems).

The popular more mac-like editor is called TexShop. Not bad, not as powerful as the integration in emacs, but pretty helpful and has a very useful pdf-view (which I use even with emacs, because it monitors the .pdf and updates when that does).

I haven't updated in a while, and only have 10.4 machines so I don't now if there are 10.5 issues. But there's recently been a shakeup in packaging, it seems the thing to do is grab tex-live for mac.

Cock retracted.

Ogged's cock hides inside his cloaca. Like a duck.

Ogged is a duck.

I would ban "honestly".

Cool. Goddammit, instead.

You people are tempting me to install LaTeX. What the hell is wrong with you?

I know it's not the prettiest or most straightforward editor, but emacs

In much the same way that the surface of the sun is not the coldest or darkest place around?

The main reasons not to use CVS or RCS if you are using it non-collaboratively is that they don't handle binary files well, and it is much harder to move things around while keeping history.

If you use it on multiple machines not on a LAN, CVS/subversion are going to be easier than RCS.

CVS branches weirdly (not that svn is perfect this way either) which may or may not matter to you?

It's the 21st century, parsimon. The preferred term is "motherfucker".

389: goddamnit stays.

391: Well the power is a trade off. It's an amazingly capable editor. Like I said, I've never seen another TeX environment that comes close. But it's a wondeful editor to use once you are use to it. It's just not very nice to neophytes.

390 - You don't already use LaTeX? That shocks me more than any twenty tales of smuggling drugs into foreign countries.

391: litotally.

If you examine the context, WaltSomeguy, you'll see that the proper form would be "fuck that shit."

You know, I think that the humorless one here is really Heebie and not B. Sure, Heebie's posts are hilarious at times. But does she laugh them herself? I doubt it.

And not just out of politeness or modesty. My suspicion is that she just plain has no sense of humor at all and is just pretending very effectively to have one. She's a flesh-and-blood feminist Chinese Room of AI humor. She probably has a bunch of joke algorithms on her computer.

Who cares, you ask? What difference to make, if her jokes are funny? Even if she doesn't laugh of them, why can't we?

But you really should ask yourself what's she's up. She's obviously gone to a great deal of effort with this, writing the mathematical joke aphorisms and so on.

So what's her dark plan?

187

"Cala and Ned, I'm asking sincerely: what do you propose? That the "pointer-outers" stop pointing out sexism and misogyny when they see it? Or that they only point it out when the person making the comment/taking the action is an Objective Horrible Person, befitting scorn?"

How about only when the comment/action is particularly egregious? Like if everyone is going 65 in the 55 zone the cops (usually) only stop the guys going 75. And if you are going 65 and get stopped you are likely to be mad even if you know perfectly well you were speeding.

Whee! The thread starts with stories of women throwing themselves at men, then turns to feminism and personhood, and now it is about nerd programs.

The sex has been fully sucked out!

Unless someone writes their porn in LaTeX?

I'm surprised you're not hopping on the hq or git bandwagons.

The benefits of this sort of thing lie in large collaborative projects with lots of branching. Not in keeping track of your own files.

Fuck. Feminism is finished, text editors are it. Fuck.

401: there was an award-winning "cyber" porno called Latex that came out in the mid-90s. Not sure how they capitalized it.

Unless someone writes their porn in LaTeX?

And why not? Word processors are a pain

I would also venture to claim I've been enrolled in more undergraduate classes than just about anybody here.

Enrolled in or finished? I did about 45 I think, but I'm not sure what's average.

It's just not very nice to neophytes.

Or those with RSI?

||
If I'm going to keep get 403 errors when I try to comment, I'm going to demand the return of the Happy Error Kitten.
|>

There was also a porn financed by a bunch of the cypherpunks, featuring unfortunate deliveries of lines about cryptography, and notable mainly for being a really terrible thing to put on at a party (which I said at the time, but did they listen? No.).

Pwned by 398.

I was going to make the exact same joke as in 399, but I didn't. Because I'm enlightened.

LaTeX would be awesome for writing Kirk/Spock slash fiction. You could define a macro for "his mighty jade shaft", and the writing would go much quicker.

405: definitely not finished.

284

"281: Well, yeah, the "niggardly" thing was just patently stupid. Didn't everyone agree about that at the time?"

Is this completely clearcut? Suppose the person using the word is hoping people will misunderstand and be offended?

I for one would be perfectly happy if unfogged did not share a context with a graduate seminar on gender and identity computer programming.

That's a yeoman's effort getting us back on topic, Shearer, but it's not going to work. You're looking at 590 more comments on LaTeX.

Nobody's said anything about computer programming. We could, though, if you want.

If I'm going to keep get 403 errors when I try to comment

Really? Since when? Anyone else?

computer programming

No one has mentioned programming at all, silly girl.

Pwned. That'll teach me to get up and go to the bathroom.

I programmed a computer once. It was okay.

This is horrible. My revelation about Heebie has been smothered by geekery of the first water.

Jesus Christ, comparing computer packages is the only thing more boring than arguing about feminism (OK, reaching comity about feminism is more boring too).

Once I thought about it, I remembered one or two cases where something similar to the sexual come-on in the post happened to me in college. But I was a virgin at the time and scared shitless to try it with someone I didn't know well enough to be extremely clumsy and awkward in front of.

Nothing like this ever happened once I knew what I was doing and would take advantage of it. Ah, the ironies of life.

comparing computer packages is the only thing more boring than arguing about feminism

No, there's always gardening.

I for one would be perfectly happy if unfogged did not share a context with a graduate seminar on gender and identity.

I agree. I think the context should be more workplace-oriented, with dsquared running workshops in diversity sensitivity.

367: subversion is pretty good, and really very easy to use. if you are mostly using it on your own, i doubt any of the fancier systems will gain you anything.

Agreed! No, the problem is that my documents are all in Word, which means I can't take advantage of the really fun parts of Subversion.

I bore with the best.

Sexist motherfuckers. Off to the pig farm with you.

413: Yeah, I was going to say "computer languages," but I knew that was probably wrong, too, and I figured "programming" was more obviously wronger, and therefore would make the point more clearly.

there's always gardening

Or discussions about people's BMIs, diets, and exercise routines.

400: Shearer, there's an analogy ban for a reason.

Yeah, I was going to say "computer languages," but I knew that was probably wrong, too, and I figured "programming" was more obviously wronger, and therefore would make the point more clearly.

Girls suck at computers.

422: subversion is pretty good, and really very easy to use
I use the NME, I use anarchy

Really? Since when?

I've gotten two today, within the past hour, both on this thread, both after hitting "Post" after preview.

Or me, explaining the subtext of my own comments and why they're funny, see, if people could only realize.

Boys suck on computers.

Or discussions about people's BMIs

If we're going to be all elderly about it might as well go whole hog.

An important thing to note about oudemia's 359: CA wrote his dissertation on continental philosophy and ancient Greek stuff. Not anything mathematical or highly symbolic like Heebie's dissertation.

433: Actually Heebie had a discussion about poop on her own blog shortly after Tgiving, and it was hilarious.

Boys suck on computers.

That's more like it.

Yeah, I was wondering about that. I'm really not sure I turn out technical enough documents at this instant to be needing LaTeX. On the other hand, maybe it is somehow the way to go for non-technical documents? Can this be?

419 - What if we spice it up with embarrassing personal revelations? For example, I've been using LaTeX, and I'm finding it tedious to create tables, so I was thinking about writing a program that would take Lisp sexprs as input, and LaTeX tables as output.

438: Ooooh. Hott. Tell me more about your sexprs, Walt. Rrrowr.

Someone found my blog the other day by googling "masturbating during colonoscopy" and I thought of all of you.

No, there's always gardening.

My hellebores look fabulous this year.

The length at which I could continue going on about this if I let myself alarms/bores even me.

Which "this", rfts? Editors or, uh, shrubs? Or something else?

What I want in a svn client.

And I will talk about shrubs!
Our stichomythia will be the most boring/nerdly ever!

Heh, nice. Yeah I'd really like to have a long conversation about version control, actuallly.

434: Doesn't matter. Most word processors suck at large documents. They also bog down on too many figures, indices, references etc. LaTeX does all of these very well. It's brilliant for dissertations that have no mathematics at all. With mathematics, it's almost needed.

I know half a dozen people who gave up on word (or other WP) part way through dissertations, and moved to tex. all of them were happy about the change. Two were non-mathematical.

What I want in a svn client.

Do you mean you want a graphical client?

446: version control has some interesting unsolved problems in it.

I know half a dozen people who gave up on word (or other WP) part way through dissertations, and moved to tex. all of them were happy about the change.

I felt like a bad person, but I tried this, found it untenable, and switched back. However, I did keep my dissertation split up across many separate Word files until the very end.

448.2: do tell!

Do you mean you want a graphical client?

I sure do. I like the looks of svnx -- BUT I really really wish it had a preview pane, and also that it had antiword built in.

oudemia: There is something to a shapely sexpr, isn't there?

rfts: You could export your files as Word XML, which is diff-able. (Word uses a gazillion tags, though.)

450: Why do all of the bugs I find always annotate to "merge" instead of the real culprit? Makes sending out bitchy emails so much more work.

Aw I thought we were talking about theoretical issues. I ain't no damn helpdesk! For software I've never used!

Excessive cleverness. Sane branching, merging, and tracking who did what seems to fall into the category of an unsolved problem.

There's also the issue of figuring out who last changes someting in a world with people who check in purely cosmetic whitespace changes, while simultaneously showing syntactically significant whitespace changes for languages like Python.

449: I'm sure it doesn't work for everyone. There were some real horror stories about what Word was doing to a couple of them though. Splitting it up helps.

I've been using mercurial for a while. It's great.

Soup clearly has some theoretical issues to talk about. Me, I have only the practical, and generally focused on the incredibly idiosyncratic user case that is me.

Version control? Do you mean something more than what law firms do with text documents? Because if that's the topic, it would be the greatest thing since sliced bread if senior people would use it rather than starting a fresh document with an uninformative name every time they want to change a comma. Hate.

454: You were on the right track. It's really a long way from what I do, but you can look at deltas in a graph-theoretic way. It's my understanding that the `best' deltas from a group of changes bumps up against the unknown. Certainly if anyone has solved this theoretically, it hasn't made it's way into any system I've heard of.

Tracking is an interesting problem if you have overlapping deltas, to. Branching doesn't seem to be done really that well anywhere, not sure how much of that is implementation vs. not knowing how to do it.

While we're slagging on Word, I was forced to work on an NSF proposal in it recently (bah. collaborators). Words merge really, really sucks. Citing too.

459: that is the topic. Things are somewhat more advanced in other realms. I've been trying to get the place I'm working now to do something other than "rename the excel file some of the time", but so far there's been significant resistance.

Law firms have some special law-specific version control software, don't they? I noticed you talking about something like that a while back.

Basically everyone is misogynist.

No, I'm not a misogynist. I'm really not.

I say this not because I think I'm a special perfect flower immune from societal influence, but because I agree with: (1) F, who points out that "misogynist" means something much stronger than having internalized stupid gender stereotypes, and (2) parsimon, who points out it's important to distinguish between being a misogynist and saying or doing something mysoginistic.

I don't have time to read all this thread, but AWB's early reflections on misogyny and self-esteem are very thoughtful and interesting. Thanks, bear.

459: The fancy general name for this stuff is `content management'. You can (and should) automate all of this stuff. Particularly if it's text files. These systems will keep a log of all changes ever made, who made them, and allow you to recreate any version if used properly.

What I really hate is people who avoid version control and then hand you documents with names like myreallybigproposal-ac-mp-rcrevisions-17a

A nice side effect of using revision control systems for personal use is that the commit log can function as a kind of productivity incentive. Is Gonerill Working? Check the log ...

461: Office should be integrated with revision control just like decent programmers editors are.

460: "best" in quotes is confusing me. Defined how?

Also, I've never felt like I had enough technical material in my papers to need LaTex. But I see a fair number of presentations done in Tex, and I do think they look a lot better than typical powerpoint.

Yeah I'd really like to have a long conversation about version control, actuallly.

Get a room, people!!

467: Yeah, Emacs and TextMate (which I use) can easily work with mercurial, git and svn.

464: Thanks, spaz! I came home and realized it was going to devolve into nerdtalk here, so I posted something more substantial about it on my blog [/shill].

B you realize now we're going to keep doing this just to annoy you, right?

468: That's part of the problem, defining how (which depends a bit on the goals). You can make metrics like shortest-path through elementary operations, but that doesn't mean that the deltas are most helpful to a human. For a (text) example if you heavily edit a sentence and my algorithm manages to reproduce your edit with a permutation of the existing letters, that's not really readable if you're looking over deltas. Also, if a 3 or more-way merge is on the go with a lot of overlap, the shortest path might not be very sensible to read.

Also if you look at diff output, you can see how algorithmically it's algorithm trips on relatively simple stuff. Some RC systems have better diffs, but still it's a problem.

From a project managing point of view, I wonder if the best deltas will come out of something with a rudimentary understanding of the structures you are working on (sort of like an automated structural editor, of course that works better with non-natural languages)

467: And how.

God, you should see the terrible, horrible piles of Chapter1-1.doc, Chapter1-2.doc, Chapter1-3.doc, Chapter1-2rev.doc, Chapter 1-2rev2.doc, etc. on my hard drive. It's appalling.

472: Misandrist.

475: I still use svn for word docs, just treat them like other binary files. I use the log file to remind me what happened in a rev.

474: iiiiinteresting... seems like a problem where you could applying some machine learning techniques to it if you had a big enough pool of readers that you could back into an error function, but maybe that's ignorance talking.

469: I find latex better for writing raw text, let alone technical stuff. With maths content, it's no question. I don't use ppt at all, latex-beamer or whatever does fine if I need a projector talk.

There are a few things where word and the like are clearly a benefit. Letters, short text with no figures/cites/index, tricksy layout of a couple of pages. That's about it, really, as far as I can see.

Well, I am going to be using svn for my word docs, for this very reason. But I want a nice graphical interface with a preview panel, to make it more pleasant for me to navigate through the history. Knowing myself, I don't think the log file will be sufficient to help me keep track.

473: That's cool.

Fair enough. I never use tools like that, so I'm not sure I can help you (emacs integrates with it fairly well, as noted). THere are a few things out there that might do the trick, but I can't recommend one, sorry.

There's also the issue of figuring out who last changes someting in a world with people who check in purely cosmetic whitespace changes,

The solution to this is to have the purely cosmetic changes batched and checked in all at once with a message to that effect, no? That's (something like) the way the python developers do it, anyway, when they need to mass-detabify things or whatever.

God, you should see the terrible, horrible piles of Chapter1-1.doc, Chapter1-2.doc, Chapter1-3.doc, Chapter1-2rev.doc, Chapter 1-2rev2.doc, etc. on my hard drive.

That is just what got me to start up with svn today.

Doesn't Word have a built in diff function? I've seen people use it, but I can't guarantee it wasn't an add-on.

Ben has the right idea, rtfs. Just set up a repository (dead easy) and start using it, don't wait to find the perfect tool. It will make your life simpler, and you can try out graphical front ends as you go.

windows has a finder plugin thingy for svn, i don't know if there is any OS X equivalent.

480: You're on OS X? Have you heard about Versions as an svn frontend? Presently vaporware, unfortunately.

484: Sure, it does. It doesn't merge very well (due to doc structure, I'm sure). But that's not the same thing as keeping track of every single (checked in) version as you go. Words diff will tell you what's different between two versions, is all.

I'm thinking I can always start out with svnx. Versions looks enticing, in that seductive vaporous way.

There's also scplugin.

I used subversion for a bit, but I mercurial and git both have some very cool features, even if you're just working on your own stuff. This is especially true if you have a computer at the office and a laptop as well.

490: That's true, but the advantages are probably lost on someone new to version control, and also depend a lot on how you want to set things up. Sometimes it's nice to have a canonical repository that doesn't live on machine X, for example. I typically spread my work over half a dozen machines, but svn is easy to put on any of them (and i'm forced to use it for 2 projects) so i'm happy enough.

The distributed ones are neat, but RCS derived ones are very easy to understand.

Sometimes it's nice to have a canonical repository that doesn't live on machine X, for example.

Yeah. I have canonical repositories on the office machine but clone them to a working directory of that machine, and also to my laptop.

The distributed ones are neat, but RCS derived ones are very easy to understand

I started off with RCS, too, but didn't use it reliably. I had been thinking about moving to subversion but then got into hg and git. They recently seem to have crossed a threshold of usability, and it wasn't too hard to get a handle on the new concepts.

RCS s/b VCS.

A nice side effect of using revision control systems for personal use is that the commit log can function as a kind of productivity incentive. Is Gonerill Working? Check the log ...

Every time Gonerill presses the bar, he receives a mild electric shock which functions as a negative reinforcement...

i totally agree with 260 .

463: Well, if you're going to be all pedantic about it, fine.

What a stupid statement of me. How else do people here act? But you're right. So let's try this again: "Basically everyone is misogynist," should be "Basically everyone acts or thinks misogynistically sometimes in daily life."

496 to 493.

KDE has a fancy text editor with CVS diff, a bit of versioning and an internal console, called Kate.

KDE has a fancy text editor with CVS diff, a bit of versioning and an internal console, called Kate.

500!

comparing computer packages is the only thing more boring than arguing about feminism

No, there's always gardening.

Gardening is no less interesting than cooking--even for a non-practitioner. I don't like to garden, but I used to listen to the BBC's Gardener's Question Time.

No, there's always gardening swimming.

any under age girls want to learn about sex from the master