That guy in the corner doesn't seem to be on the same page as the rest.
He's a Secret Service agent, obviously.
That is so perfect, in so many ways.
I love the weaker male being expelled from the herd. Have fun wandering the veldt alone, skippy.
This is serious, Sify. That guy is not going to vote for Obama. I'm starting to resent his way with the ladeez myself.
I'm starting to resent his way with the ladeez myself.
Yeah, me too. And I'm not even interested in the laydeez.
6: you know Obama ain't tryin' to cock-block, and if he does it he's going to forthrightly apologize.
Sure, he makes an exception for someone named Lovelady.
I knew he was the candidate who speaks to my interests.
11: Yes, clearly something about the lighting, his skin looks so much darker than the others. Hopefully this won't become like the Dean scream where an artifact of reproduction tars the candidate irredeemably.
Y'all mind if we dance with your dates?
Fortunately Obama seems to have perfected his Nonthreatening Smile for this photo. Still, it would probably be best if no one sent this to WJC.
Shit, apo. Where's that picture you have? Of the white girls with the black guy sticking his head in from the side of the photo?
Now that I've clicked through the photoset that picture came from, I feel confident in stating that Barack Obama has a nice set of teeth.
19: You mean Reza and the Asians?
16: More importantly, it would definitely be best if no one sent this to A/thouse.
I do know the one you mean, but I have no idea how to search for it.
21: I know like several of them are wearing sweaters!
23: Crap. Didn't you post it on your blog at some point?
I can tell you how not to search for it.
(No, really. Don't. You're at work? Don't be stupid.)
I feel confident in stating that Barack Obama has a nice set of teeth.
This is funny.
And why has no one remarked this before? It's all in the teeth, I kid you not.
26: You bet me to it ST. I did a similar search, but paused for a bit of .... ummm , research.
25: Yeah, but I don't remember the context and have no idea what the file might be named. It's killing me because it's perfect.
I seem to remember it looking kind of like this.
Whose the dude?
Oh, that's right. It's Barrack.
25: It's killing me because it's perfect.
Can two different things be perfect? Discuss.
Now I'm reminded of this illustration of the Russian word "pizdets" / "superfucked".
31: I swear you posted it with some comment to the effect that you love this picture, or this picture is hilarious, or you can't stop laughing at this picture or something like that. But I've gone back through the entire 2007 and 2006 archives on your site and I can't fucking find it. Although May 2007 wouldn't load for me....
OH GOD, I love that picture so much.
You really need to put that on the main page along with the Obama picture, Ogged. Pretty please.
I will not put it on the main page, you big racist.
I don't think ogged needs to do that at all. Do we really want Case of Speds picking up posts here?
Otherwise known as downloading every photo in your img directory.
42, 45: Aw crap, you people have no sense of humor.
46: I give 10 minutes until the feds raid you, ogged. Better get deleting.
Oh, you got it.
I was trying to find it and realized I was thinking of this one, which is also worth a look.
Damn, I knew he was coming for our women.
C'mon people. Don't tell me you aren't clicking back and forth between those two pictures and laughing yourselves silly.
I profess not to get it: the guy in Apo's pic looks scared out his mind. Look at the eyebrows on those girls women.
Parsimon, are you, like, broken or something?
Parsimon, this is the type of awesome like chicks showing up to your door in lingerie. If it has to be explained...
Okay, THANK GOD someone is on my side here.
That pic could be used like a Rorschach for potential dates.
Dude, they are ridiculously funny when juxtaposed. Switch out butterfly wings for Iowa VIP badges. What great prop swaps!
Is Barack Obama the Anti-Christ? Discuss.
(or has this one been done before?)
55: Hell, no. I'll explain a bit: "profess not to get it" means "of course I get it, this is standard hot chix, holy shit (smacks forehead)."
Nevermind.
61: No, the appeal of the picture has nothing to do with anybody being a hot chick. That's totally irrelevant.
No, see, parsimon, it's funny because us white people are simultaneously intimidated and fascinated by the fearsome jungle prowess of the sex-machine black man, a dynamic impeccably called to mind by the first picture, a connection only made more obvious by reference to the second. It's like he's a monster! And they're angels! Don't worry, though, we're all being meta. Nobody really thinks that here.
Hah! You've taken my humor and I can't have it back!
Suckers!
Then I need you to explain. I see young white girls in fairly standard presentation, and a guy who happens to be black juxtaposed, grinning or grimacing. Go from there?
I mean, I see the funny, but I tend to see it as sick humor.
And you know, I'm about to have dinner, and don't really need to have this out. I don't really like being told I must be "broken" though.
65: Where? I really admire the way she performs in public. It can't be easy seeing your mother viciously attacked on a daily basis (and not only by the wingnuts but also, lately, by fellow democrats).
cant stop laughing
send help
Yeah I'm a fan of Chelsea, insofar as I know anything about her.
Providence Newspaper Guild Follies. She's super nice, and quite impressive.
Mere moments later, I see that Sifu has explained that which I grasped.
I was joking about the broken thing. But yeah, the point is they're not just young white girls, they're all prettied up--in leotards, with wings, for god's sake. And presumably the guy in the background is a friend or something who's making fun of the "look at the assemblage of delicate (white) women" thing by pretending to be a predatory monster in the back of the picture.
The Obama picture's "perfect"--without the other picture, mind--because it's Obama, who is a black man, standing behind a group of smiling very young white girls who are all tarted up in the way that young women get for photo ops. It evokes the Threatening Black Man thing, whether or not one likes that idea. So that's kind of amusing.
Then you look at the other picture, which is awfully similar in terms of the age of the girls, who's standing where, the general presentation, and since the other picture is playing off the Threatening Black Man in a very *obvious* way, you get to laugh at something you recognized in the first picture but were too polite to really make a big deal out of.
It's not so much sick as it is, I dunno, a way of relieving the pressure of recognizing racist tropes even when we wish we didn't. Or something like that.
It's funny because these are well-behaved ballet girls, and then there's this half-naked guy. I think he was in another one of the dance numbers.
I don't really like being told I must be "broken" though.
B gets pissy if someone threatens to be more humorless than she is.
You see, young parsimon, there's a stereotype and deep fear in this here American society that that the black man is a gonna get the white woman, and a picture of a black man who is merely a candidate smiling for the camera which nevertheless looks like a black man thrilled to be surrounded by a harem of white women, is funny. Add the fact that there's just one white man in the picture, wearing a hangdog look and literally marginalized, and the picture becomes, as the post title says, Perfect.
As for the second picture, well, these here honkies are just a bunch of racists.
Unless you're racist, of course, in which case it's funny 'cuz it's true.
Tweety doesn't think it's funny because he's humorless, politically correct, and defensive about his own racism.
That's not why the Obama picture is perfect, though. It's perfect because all Obama girls are white and smiley and cute, and because the Obama boy is slinking off in the background, and because Obama, the famous guy, isn't front and center, but all shuffled off to the back.
Every single commenter must explain the funny.
76: You've let your paranoia run away with you. The picture is lovely, in part because Obama smile makes him look dorky.
I also want to insist that their being from Iowa adds to the funny. And that I think one of these girls might actually be in both pictures.
Ogged, given that I'm the one that remembered apo's pic, you SO do not get to call me humorless. Not this time.
I'm outta here for a bit, but I'd like 100 competing explanations by the time I return. This is going to make us all realize that we're never laughing at the same thing, even when we think we are.
I think one of these girls might actually be in both pictures.
Right, the fact that young women of that age often look so remarkably similar is funny, too.
Let's reason by analogy.
—Knock knock!
—Who's there?
—Interrupting naked guy.
—Interrupting naked guy wh—AIEEEEEEE
I also like that there is a "halo" of bright reflected light on the bricks surrounding Barack's head.
I don't think my account is actually incompatible with Ogged's.
I thought it was funny for the happy girls / hangdog boy as explained above, but also because I thought it evoked the Bill Clinton blogger thing. I was going to say something about that girl in the short skirt obviously asking for it, but something to that effect was said above.
If the first thing I think about when seeing a picture is A/thouse, I think I'm the one who's broken.
90: Except that you're *totally not mentioning the racial subtext*. Which is the funniest part.
The humor in 49, meanwhile, is verbal and results from a rich tapestry of thoughts and moments.
There appear to be abandoned black clogs bottom left. Funny.
It's perfect because ... unhappy white guy is secretly Mark Penn's cousin. And because right after the picture, Obama's promised to speak to the 4F.
This is, like, the best thread ever.
nobody really thought it was funny for reasons unrelated to race, right? even though we none of us see color?
What's funny about the Obama picture is that it has no subtext.
This is, like, the best thread ever.
Especially the parts that should be on your blog.
Don't make me explain the joke where I explained the joke.
I already understood everything explained in 76. Except that per 74.3, the second picture didn't need to explain the first picture.
My remark in 53 about the eyebrows on those women was a joke. The entirety of 53 was a joke.
What is so funny about peace, love, and understanding?
I'm now puzzled by what Parsimon is puzzled by. Infinite regress is near.
Weirdly, I'm watching a Mitchell & Web sketch that exactly recapitulates this thread.
It's puzzlement all the way down, Walt.
What I want to know is whether the chick on the far right is wearing that school cardigan ironically.
There appear to be abandoned black clogs bottom left
Is Obama wearing shoes?
"Yields puzzlement when appended to its quotation" yields puzzlement when appended to its quotation.
I keep wanting to all earnestly explain that I am neither stupid nor blind to the obvious racial-politics origins of the funny, and that I was taking them as given and talking about... but then I hate myself for playing any further part in earnest over-explanation, and now I am just grumpy and all enjoyment is as ashes in my mouth. Bah.
It's not worth it, Walt. The humorless mantle is mine. Nobody gets the eyebrows, nobody.
I don't think those are clogs. They're too shiny. And they belong to the pale woman next to Obama--who had BETTER NOT LOOK TALLER THAN TEH CANDIDATE IF SHE WANTS TO BE IN THE PICTURE.
114: I'm sorry, I was just teasing you. I did not mean to ruin your fun.
Well, I should have spoken up sooner, but I totally knew you were joking about the eyebrows, Parsimon.
114: Foxytail and I understand one another.
No no, it's okay, I just needed to purge my earnestness urge. I think I'm all better now.
What's funny is that I can't think of the last time I saw a bad picture of Obama. Ordinary photos, funny photos, but not any that make me think "Wow. You look like ass in that picture." (Obviously, they must exist, but I haven't seen them.) From this I conclude that Obama is nothing but a Hollywood Commie Dhimmiconomist.
Just wait until the picture of Obama riding in a tank, wearing a flight suit and a cowboy hat, holding a gun gets published.
(Obviously, they must exist, but I haven't seen them.)
That's not at all obvious to me. I'm not even convinced he's an actual person.
The eyebrow makeup on the ballet-girls makes absolutely no sense. Neither do their unfortunate undergarment choices. I'm one-hundred percent on half-naked guy's side.
John Kerry just spoke and was -- I kid you not -- hilarious. Until he turned his comedy routine into an Obama stump speech and the Hillary people in the crowd got ugly.
Anyway. More drinks!
I hear it's impossible to photograph the antichrist in an unflattering pose.
the Hillary people in the crowd got ugly
Sexist.
Just wait until the picture of Obama riding in a tank, wearing a flight suit and a cowboy hat, holding a gun and surrounded by laydeez gets published.
More drinks!
Yes, I'm beginning to think that I left the bar too early and there's nothing at home!
Duh. The clogs on the left belong to a Raptured Christian. The remainder are The AntiChrist and his harem of White Wimmen.
Oh, and some loser dude.
PS - I also got the eyebrow joke in real time.
there's a stereotype and deep fear in this here American society that that the black man is a gonna get the white woman
It does look like the caption of the picture should be a paraphrase of a line from Blazing Saddles ....
I'm not even convinced he's an actual person.
He's not. Hence his appeal.
the only thing funny is the guy who is not smiling
discordance
without him or with him but smiling the picture is just sweet and the funny racial issues i get only after explanations
Just wait until the picture of Obama riding in a tank, wearing a flight suit and a cowboy hat, holding a gun gets published.
Well, here's a partial attempt. And nope, he doesn't look at all goofy.
121: Obama looks pretty bad in the photo here.
132: he looks great. There's a new sheriff in town!
Obama could seriously be a male model. He's the best-looking candidate since...well, Reagan was really good looking when he was Obama's age, but he was almost 70 when he ran.
#134. You think so? That looks like a fairly ordinary picture to me, neither especially flattering or unflattering (but with the added delightfulness of JJ standing there thinking "Dammnn ... what's he got ...?")
Obama could not be a male model. He's got the zero-percent body fat thing going, yes, and the posture and general photogenicity, but for a male model these days I think you need some pretty-boy plumped up lips and stuff. And some eyelashes. I guess they could take care of that. But Obama's too old; he could be like a Robert Redford older model!
134: I am aware of the cowboy hat photo or photos (don't know if there's more than one or if I've seen different versions of the same one). Since that's missing a gun, tank, and flight suit, I'd hardly call it even a partial attempt.
Okay, everyone does get that the white guy is not a Secret Service agent, but rather a Future Farmer of America, and the reason he's way over on that side is that he's shy, but his hawt co-FFA member whom he has a huge unrequited crush on dragged him over at the last minute, right? ("Ohmigod, Tyler, come be in the picture with Barackobama!") Also, he's embarrassed that all the Obama volunteers from Ames and Des Moines got gussied up in their Sunday-go-to-meeting outfits, while he foolishly tried to represent FFA solidarity, and therefore wound up looking like more of a doofus than he would have otherwise.
Did someone already link this picture here?
131: We all look alike to Mongols.
Words cannot express how much I want my own harem of barely legal Poli Sci-major Obama-supporting hotties.
Obama, that fucker. I will crush him.
FFA dude is the only one not showing teeth. He holds a grudge.
The leotard pic made me piss myself laughing.
I'm totally Becks-style, so I'll clean up the puddle and go to bed.
140: Me, me, me, I did! But it was last week or something, so it's good to see it again.
139 is perfect and priceless.
Oh hey and the cutie with the fashionable eyewear and highlights standing in front of the boy is also wearing an FFA jacket.
(I bought one of those blue corduroy FFA jackets at a thrift store in high school. The name embroidered in gold thread on the front was "David Cramp." It amused me since, although NJ is the Garden State, our particular bedroom community possessed no future farmers. Then one day in the hallway, a fairly gormless kid I had never before clapped eyes on ran up to me and said with excitement and delight -- in accents normally heard only within sight of Lookout Mountain: You're in the FFA too?! After that, it felt too mean to wear my jacket.)
you're kidding me right - the photograph is funny and daring because it's got a black man in the same frame as some young white women? God you Yanks are priceless.
149: the cutie with the fashionable eyewear and highlights standing in front of the boy is also wearing an FFA jacket.
We get a lot of FFA kids coming through downtown Mpls on their outings, goin' to see movies and what not. It's kinda sad sometimes to see them and note how much they tend to resemble the young woman in the picture -- just as in thrall to the overpowering ideology of MTV and American Idol as any suburbanite. But with less ironic distance.
My first college crush, who was an Iowan, but not a Future Farmer, had a signed picture of Jesse Jackson from when he had come through campaigning in either 1988 or 1992. I wouldn't go so far as to say that the caucuses are the only way that kids from rural Iowa ever meet Black people, but it's gotta be right up there.
143 may be
it took guite some time to start recognise faces
eg i wouldn't recognise the three girls in the right from each other
Parsimon, you made a joke about your own humorlessness, bringing us even closer to the very infinite regress we're trying to avoid.
Oh my God, 126 is right. He really is the anti-Christ.
And I am unable to close my tags.
So what's it like in an infinite regress?
155: So what's it like in an infinite regress?
So what's it like in an infinite regress? (flip blog for answer)
I was trying to pin down that FFA jacket, but Minneapolitan figured it out. Evidence that a good-looking person can make anything look good.
My understanding is that FFA is for actual farmers, whereas 4H is a nostalgia thing so that the kids of ex-farm-kids can experience the fun, interesting parts of farming.
Jesse Jackson did pretty well up here in Lake Wobegon during the presidential primaries way back when. He was able to use the churchy speech that he probably didn't use with his liberal audiences.
JM mistook the FFA jacket for a school cardigan, possibly being worn ironically. JM is not down with the Iowa gente. Lake Wobegonish places don't use irony much. We're more into potatoes, pork products, sausages, butter, cream, smoked and pickled fish, and other non-ironic foods. And jello, the least ironic of all foods.
I think young people moving from places like Lake Wobegon to New York is an important engine of irony. New Yorkers wouldn't know what to appreciate ironically if they didn't have transplanted Midwesterners to tell them.
When I moved back here 3 years ago, I quickly realized that I had more cynicism in my little finger than the whole town put together.
That's not quite true, but the only cynics I've met here are two not-very-successful lowlife pervs.
See, irony is for hi[psters, vegans and the fashionably thin (**cough cough JM**). Not many of them on that diet.
In the picture from apo's blog I'm much more frightened of the girls in front than the dude with wild hair in the back. I feel solidarity with him for his obvious terror of the youthful harpies pointing their teeth-beams at the camera.
Plainly they have taken him prisoner and plan to kill him in some rite of My Little Pony supplication later in the evening.
My little sister, who is visiting, says she likes Obama and wants to vote for him in the PA primary, but isn't sure if she's registered. She liked his speech about the separation of church and state. She would fit in with that picture.
And she thinks that "Get Disappointed by Someone New" is an awesome slogan. Props to Ari.
When I moved back here 3 years ago, I quickly realized that I had more cynicism in my little finger than the whole town put together.
Name a town where you wouldn't be the local cynic. Your cynicism probably exceeds the Manhattan average.
Thank you, PGD. Between my mom's friends and I, we cover pretty much the whole range of the possible.
Parsimon and Winna are right. The guy with the ballet dancers looks terrified, and well he might.
JM is not down with the Iowa gente.
Thank God! Well, that may be true, alas.
The Iowa gente have noted JM's comment. An incredibly cut FFA member has been sent to waterboard her with wholesomeness and positive mental attitude.
163: If your sister isn't registered, she'll need to register before March 22 in order to be able to vote for Barry in the primary. She can find out if she's registered by getting in touch with her home county's Board of Elections.
Voter registration forms and a bit more info are here.
I mean "cute". "Cut" would be the wrong effect.
171: "Cut" would be the wrong effect.
It was August, and the Larsens were working hard to get the harvest in before the rest of the co-ops brought in their soybeans and drove down the price. Tyler Larsen raised a youthfully calloused hand to his glistening brow and surveyed the remaining acreage. One more day at least, maybe two. It wasn't that Tyler minded the harvest -- the long summer days in the fields had honed his young body to whipcord tautness, and when he doffed his plaid, shortsleeve workshirt each night, the area not covered by his farmer's tan rippled and flexed with a young animal's feverish intensity. Then, as they so often had recently, his thoughts turned to his neighbor, Tiffany Biederman, with whom he had spent so many agonizing hours this year volunteering for the Obama campaign. Their parents, stolid Hillary supporters all, didn't understand the young folks' enthusiasm for the change candidate. Only too well, though, did they understand the piercing desire that surged out of Tyler's eyes whenever he stood behind Tiffany at an FFA function. In fact, the only person who remained oblivious was Tiffany herself, so fervently had she concentrated on the caucus effort that spring, and on the voter registration drives in the teeming megalopolis of Des Moines this summer.
My understanding is that FFA is for actual farmers, whereas 4H is a nostalgia thing so that the kids of ex-farm-kids can experience the fun, interesting parts of farming.
That's exactly right.
FFA isn't everyhwere. My area did not have a lot of farmers, but had a few, who were in 4H. Then the other half of 4H was girls who rode horses.
175: That's my experience too; I spent some time in an agricultural area where the 4H would have stuff like 10 year olds show cattle they had raised themselves (and then sold at the auction after the show), etc. Not nostalgia.
What I mean is that they raised nostalgia cattle on nostalgia farms without actually being real farmers. They weren't learning to run a viable farm, whereas the FFA kids were. I'd imagine that the FFA had things about taxes and credit, for example.
Okay, I guess a "viable farm" by today's definition only exists in areas where there is absolutely nothing except farms, because of economies of scale.
FFA is generally an organization at the high school, while 4-H is mostly for younger kids. I'd say most of the kids in our FFA had also been in 4-H.
4-H isn't just limited to the farm kids or the nostalgic farm wannabes, though. It's also for learning all kinds of domestic things and other skills good for rural life, even if you don't farm. Home ec for kids.
Our FFA certainly didn't teach about financial things. They did have a machine shop, though, where you could learn about welding and motor repair for farm equipment.
At about fifteen I came across the acronym 4-H, in a book I'd guess, and asked my mom what it was. When she told me, I didn't believe her---not least because she could only remember one of the four aitches in question.
Head heart hands health.
Why so hard to believe?
Hamsters, Hookers, Heroin, and Hamas: I was not expecting that.
An incredibly cut FFA member has been sent to waterboard her with wholesomeness and positive mental attitude.
Speaking of waterboarding, I can't believe that you're not all abuzz about this awesome story (via TPM). Horror meets high hilarity! I move that it be posted on the front page under the heading "Glengarry Glen Ghraib."
"WWW" in the internet is also a seekrit Boy Scout code word.
Tomorrow I am going to ask my coworker who grew up on a farm about 4H vs. FFA stuff. His nuclear family has stopped farming, but his uncle farms SIX THOUSAND ACRES of central MN (actually, this probably can't last, since the acreage in questions is within spitting distance of the northwestern edge of the current outer ring suburbs.) For all that I'm very skeptical of mainstream farming techniques and the sociological implications of privatized farming, and for all my inner Marx tells me "it could never have lasted", I still feel more than a little bereft about the end of the stage of capital which allowed millions of family farms to flourish.
My cousins who grew up mostly on a hobby farm on the other boundary of the Twin Cities were active in 4H. It just seemed like a fun after-school deal with a semi-agricultural focus from what I saw of their participation.
Why so hard to believe?
I think my disbelief was more about getting young people to join a group about farming. I was a pretty uppity kid.
Kids who grow up farming often like, and are sorry when economics forces them to get out.
I thought farming was all about leaning on one's hoe in the dusty fields, looking nervously at the clouds away over yonder, and wondering whether the coming storm would drop killer hailstones or lifesaving rain? And what happens to the crops when seagulls don't save you from the locusts, eh?
I bought one of those blue corduroy FFA jackets at a thrift store in high school. ...Then one day in the hallway, a fairly gormless kid I had never before clapped eyes on ran up to me and said with excitement and delight -- in accents normally heard only within sight of Lookout Mountain: You're in the FFA too?! After that, it felt too mean to wear my jacket.)
I had an FFA jacket in junior high--my own, with my own name embroidered on it and everything. My height and weight shot up shortly after I bought it, so it got stored away in a closet in my parents' house until it was retrieved one day by Fleur, who loved it and decided to make it her own. She basically had the Oudemia experience a couple of times in Boston, and I'm not sure she has worn it since.
My understanding is that FFA is for actual farmers, whereas 4H is a nostalgia thing so that the kids of ex-farm-kids can experience the fun, interesting parts of farming.
This is not the case at all. FFA is an organization for junior high and high school students enrolled in vocational agriculture classes. 4-H covers a larger age span, and is open to anyone. Blume gets it right in 179. My siblings and I were all in both 4-H and (later) FFA. We all raised steers as a 4-H project.
Our FFA certainly didn't teach about financial things.
Technically, members should have to do a Supervised Occupational Experience Project (SOEP), which does require you to learn some financial basics, as the objective of the SOEP is to turn a profit.
Republican attack ad:
Obama stealing our young white ladies.
Shot of disaffected white guy in the right hand corner:
It was like I didn't even matter because I wasn't black and hip.
argument on morning talk show: yes, but Tom, it should be obvious that not all of the young ladies were white.
Well Tweety, that's what I consider the really interesting part. Obama has two perfectly acceptable non-whites, one's latino and the other asian if I can tell my races at a glance and I generally can, but he nonetheless feels the need to hog all the other white women as well. The young white man is obviously overshadowed, which foreshadows what his life will be like if Barrack Hussein Obama's vision of liberality ever comes to pass. The hardworking white men that are the backbone of this country will be relegated to the dark shadows, while all the social goods that the hard working heartland members of this country have slaved so hard for will be siphoned away and distributed among immigrants and welfare recipients. That's what I think is the really disturbing aspect of this scandal..
Tweety: Thanks Tom, I think your analysis of this case is spot on.
Na, Tweety, you're offering to be Obama's wingman and score one of the 9 leftovers. We can see through your cunning game.
Only just caught up with this, but it's clear that the reason the lad at top right is looking so dischuffed is that he's been decapitated and his neck has been badly attached to the head of the woman in glasses, probably in some mad Frankenstein attempt to increase his or her mental capacity.
I too would look down in the mouth if this happened to me.
The question is, do you really want a president who apparently condones such behaviour, especially in teenagers?
People worried about the effect Fleur and Oudemia had can always get one of these instead.
