Re: Anecdata

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Pacing!


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 11:33 AM
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ben, this is the obligatory politics thread. We don't want the old ones to get too clogged.


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 11:36 AM
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I am pleased to report that both my red-state-living, nine-eleven-voting parents are voting for Barack Obama in the primary with the intent to vote Democratic in the general.


Posted by: Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 11:39 AM
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I'm so excited for super March 4th tuesday tomorrow.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 11:40 AM
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My sister thinks that Obama gets it but isn't sure if she's registered and if she is, is probably Republican.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 11:40 AM
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I wish the primaries were over, so everyone could get around to figuring out if the country is going to get bitchslapped by born-agains and scumbags again.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 11:45 AM
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Yeah, baby. In my limited experience, most older people are quite aware of the costs of age, and many voluntarily limit their responsibilities for just that reason. I'd love to know what proportion of the voting public will be older than 72, or older than 76, in November. I don't know where one could get good numbers for that, though.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 11:57 AM
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Heh. I was making small talk with a colleague last week and the subject of the primaries came up. Asked who he liked, he said McCain and Obama. "Hmm, McCain is just so old..." says I. Long, somber pause. "Yeah, you're probably right. It's too bad, though." I like to think that I turned one voter. In a blue state where it won't matter, but still.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 12:00 PM
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My grandma said *exactly* the same thing to me last week. Way too old.


Posted by: Sybil Vane | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 12:12 PM
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In my limited experience, most older people are quite aware of the costs of age, and many voluntarily limit their responsibilities for just that reason.

In my limited experience, most older people are quite aware of the costs of age and many try to compensate by overextending in a bid to appear vigorous past the point of it being a good idea.


Posted by: Robust McManlyPants | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 12:13 PM
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compensate by overextending in a bid to appear vigorous past the point of it being a good idea.

Particularly where automobiles are concerned.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 12:15 PM
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McCain, the candidate of Less Hope, More Wars. Unfortunately for McCain, the injuries suffered as POW restrict his mobility and make him look even older than he is.


Posted by: asl | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 12:16 PM
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But what about that scary Muslim sleeper communist cokehead Barack HUSSEIN Obama?!?!?

Yeah, he's got my vote, too. GOBAMA!


Posted by: NCProsecutor | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 12:18 PM
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Now that Giuliani is out, my fiancee is guaranteed to vote Democratic.

That could have caused some real tension.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 12:19 PM
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Particularly where automobiles are concerned.

Why, soup, I had no idea you'd met my parents.


Posted by: Robust McManlyPants | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 12:19 PM
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"I liked Rudy at first, because, you know, the whole 9/11 thing, but then he started saying 9/11 all the time and I thought maybe he didn't really have anything else going on." --Calasis


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 12:21 PM
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15: I can see it's a real bind when you live in a car-centric culture like (most of) the US and Canada, because they're giving up a lot psychologically along with driving. In europe not so much, but my grandfather was terrible this way. Then again, he'd spent most of his life loving autos, so very hard for him to give up, too.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 12:23 PM
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Why, soup, I had no idea you'd met my parents.

Are they going to be offended by DNC ads asking whether a President McCain would be willing to surrender his driver's license?


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 12:29 PM
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I've often though graduated licensing should be considered at both ends, or rather graduated re-testing.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 12:31 PM
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13.1: Yes, my depressing FIL experience in a nutshell.

Basically it's "Obama is too smart to be black therefore he really is a Muslim." QED.

This is performed semi-humorously (ha ha) by a "Democrat" who is for Hillary, I'm pretty sure he'll go McCain if Obama is the nominee. But not to worry it's only Florida ...


Posted by: John Quincy Adams | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 12:34 PM
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17: Not to derail the McCain Hate, but in the town where I grew up there was an extremely elderly gentleman whose license had long since been taken away by family or the state or someone, you know how it is. He still had a farm tractor and a large trailer he could pull behind it, though, so he drove those everywhere. At the local grocery store he would take up seven or eight spaces in front of the front door because that was about the smallest target he was guaranteed to hit. Nobody tried to stop him from driving the tractor because even he could still shoot something vaguely in front of him when firing a sawed-off shotgun.

I actually kind of have a problem with hating McCain for being old, even as I do it myself, in part because I don't like the way it challenges me to confront my parents' and my own eventual mortality and in part because it feels like cheating to make his age an issue. So he's old, lots of people are old; saying that his age might make him unacceptable in the future even if he's fully functional now feels a little too much like saying, "Well, you know, we can't hire Female Candidate X for the job because she might get pregnant." It just feels fuzzy and accusatory and discriminatory for reasons I can't quite define. I would much rather see him defeated as the "Less Hope, More War" candidate as described above than as the "Cocoon Was Just a Movie, Geezers" candidate.

This comment is now ordered sealed by the Analogy Ban Commission.


Posted by: Robust McManlyPants | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 12:34 PM
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20. Wow. I'm glad I don't have any extended family like that. I really don't deal with situations like that diplomatically.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 12:36 PM
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even if he's fully functional now

Compared to what?


Posted by: Not Prince Hamlet | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 12:36 PM
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21: I think it *has* to be an issue, it just doesn't have to be a disqualifier. It wouldn't make much sense to say you can't be older than X. But lets face it, most 70-somethings simply aren't up for the rigors of a job like that, even if they haven't lost much mental acuity yet. Some of them are. Those that are should be able to demonstrate it, I guess. On the other hand, as you note he's very vulnerable on actual issues to, and that's the way he should be defeated.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 12:39 PM
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You could of done it without the analogy, McManly, and then we'd of had a perfectly good comment.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 12:40 PM
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"Well, you know, we can't hire Female Candidate X for the job because she might get pregnant.

I feel certain that's not true for HRC (or Sebelius or Napolitano, etc.) When do most people go through menopause?

I would much rather see him defeated as the "Less Hope, More War" candidate as described above than as the "Cocoon Was Just a Movie, Geezers" candidate.

As long as he gets defeated.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 12:40 PM
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Man, I'm not up for the big job, and I'm not even old enough to qualify for it. The age maximum should be lower than the age minimum.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 12:41 PM
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27: I'm not saying that most people are ever ready for it. I've seen a couple of people his age have minor injuries that knocked them back for months and months though, the sort of thing you'd expect to slow you down for a week. That kind of issue doesn't go away because you've had a successful political career in the past.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 12:43 PM
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26: Menopause≠aging-related infertility. Almost all women are infertile by 45, and many earlier, but menopause can come quite a bit later.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 12:48 PM
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21: I think it is legitimate to point out that his age would make him more reliant on his staff and other appointees, and then to question/attack his demonstrated lack of judgment on that front. For instance, why isn't he wearing Renzi around his neck a bit more in the media, he was all 110% behind the dude a few months ago. "If you like Rick Renzi then you'll just love the McCain administration."


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 12:49 PM
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I think the NYTimes is holding back on that sex scandal until McCain needs a boost at the polls.


Posted by: Mary Catherine | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 12:50 PM
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I'm not saying that most people are ever ready for it.

Dream-killer.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 12:50 PM
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Menopause‚Ȇaging-related infertility. Almost all women are infertile by 45, and many earlier, but menopause can come quite a bit later.

News you can use, baby!


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 12:50 PM
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The age maximum should be lower than the age minimum

Only those who can bend time and space can be president!


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 12:51 PM
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Almost all women are infertile by 45, and many earlier

Really?? Why did I never know this?


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 12:52 PM
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I, too, am excited about Super Texas Tuesday, for the obvious reasons, but also so that I can answer my phone again (3 calls from Obama's campaign just this weekend, many earlier, including 2 from Michelle; only one from Hillary's, surprisingly; pretty much every state and local Dem running, at least once). I am unaccustomed to being so assiduously courted; I'm sure it's old hat to many of you. I don't know how people in Ohio & Florida get through elections without blowing up their TVs,* telephones, and mailboxes.

If they even have a TV.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 12:52 PM
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34: No. If you're doubly disqualified, then you're qualified. Ah-nuld!


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 12:54 PM
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I think it is legitimate to point out that his age would make him more reliant on his staff and other appointees,

Also, how seriously will foreign leaders treat a "warrior" who can't get it up? No one is suggesting that either HRC or BO are anything but sexually active. I'm not sure that, at this time of great trouble, we can afford a limp-dick president.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 12:54 PM
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I think the NYTimes is holding back on that sex scandal until McCain needs a boost at the polls.

"McCain Still Has Youthful Vigor Where It Counts"


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 12:58 PM
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No one is suggesting that either HRC or BO are anything but sexually active


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 12:58 PM
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Would pregnancy really keep someone from performing their job as president for that long? Wasn't there a governor who delivered twins while in office?


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 12:59 PM
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35: It's off the top of my head, but I'm pretty sure I'm right. I'm guessing that not having had kids, you never went through the period of crazed female-reproductive-system-related reading people like us tend to go through before or upon getting pregnant.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 1:01 PM
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Also, if I were really wanting to push the age argument, I would look at how McCain's relatives aged. Genetics plays a big role here. Folks in my family are generally fully functional until 80. If McCain's family is like mine, he could do 8 years as president.

If there is Alzheimer's in his family, it would be different.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 1:01 PM
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Wasn't there a governor who delivered twins while in office?

IIRC, she ran into problems peripherally relating to the kids (misuse of state stuff for childcare, etc.).


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 1:01 PM
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41: Probably wouldn't, but might. If everything goes fine, you can work right up until labor gets too intense. But if something goes wrong, you can't, and the odds of something that would interfere with work going wrong aren't all that low.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 1:02 PM
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I am unaccustomed to being so assiduously courted; I'm sure it's old hat to many of you. I don't know how people in Ohio & Florida get through elections without blowing up their TVs,* telephones, and mailboxes.

You need to just get a cell phone instead of the land-line.

The only calls I've gotten this election cycle were two from Obama asking for money. In 2004 the only call I got was from Puff Daddy threatening to kill me if I didn't vote.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 1:02 PM
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Also, if I were really wanting to push the age argument, I would look at how McCain's relatives aged. Genetics plays a big role here. Folks in my family are generally fully functional until 80. If McCain's family is like mine, he could do 8 years as president.

What is this? Fairness? Let's pretend we want to win.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 1:03 PM
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Er, the calls were from Obama's minions, not him himself.

Puff Daddy, however, did all the talking.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 1:03 PM
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Jane Swift, in Massachusetts. And 44 has it right.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 1:03 PM
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42: Nope. Huh, though: so, um, like, there are fertility tests, no? How onerous are those?


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 1:05 PM
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42: I've read it depends heavily on one's ancestry. One report I read said something like women of Northern European ancestry experience a fertility nosedive around 30, and with Mediterranean women, the same nosedive doesn't occur until around 40.

But definitely fertility decreases well before menopause.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 1:06 PM
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Jane Swift didn't wind up coming off very well, alas. Poor role model.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 1:06 PM
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You need to just get a cell phone instead of the land-line.

Dude, I work for the telephone union. Not bloody likely.

Besides! I *like* landlines. I even have one that has an actual cord. It works during blackouts and everything.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 1:06 PM
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44, 49: So women may be dumb, but they're also crooks.

BTW: Did folks see the comment on yesterday's thread that Charlotte Allen is now saying all tongue-in-cheek, so no harm no foul?


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 1:07 PM
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Did folks see the comment on yesterday's thread that Charlotte Allen is now saying all tongue-in-cheek, so no harm no foul?

That seems like a credible explanation, as the WP is increasingly a joke.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 1:09 PM
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50: From what my over 30 friend of Northern European ancestry tells me, the tests are quite onerous indeed. The doctors also apparently don't like to run them unless you've been trying for over a year to no avail. That's the testing for women. The guy's test, as I understand it, is pretty simple and fun.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 1:11 PM
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50: From a friend who had an infertility problem, pretty onerous, at least to the extent that I get the sense is that there's not one test, but a process that involves a couple *trying* to get pregnant, and the doctor ruling out various things based on what the couple reports. In my friend's case, she had no problems getting pregnant, but she had problems staying pregnant, which indicated a different sort of problem and different sorts of tests than it would have if she couldn't conceive at all.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 1:12 PM
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50: Erm, not to be a downer, but not really AFAIK. That is, there are diagnosable conditions that make you infertile, but I don't think there's much they can do to test for whether age related infertility has kicked in yet.

51: Yeah, it's very individual -- my cousin Bernie had her first at 42, no difficulty. But 45's a pretty good outside limit; someone having a kid past 45 with their own eggs is way, way, way unusual.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 1:12 PM
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56: Drat. Okay, that's what I figured. Thanks.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 1:13 PM
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I grew up there was an extremely elderly gentleman whose license had long since been taken away by family or the state or someone, you know how it is. He still had a farm tractor and a large trailer he could pull behind it, though, so he drove those everywhere.

Yeah, I've seen The Straight Story too. Great movie.


Posted by: washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 1:14 PM
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a process that involves a couple *trying* to get pregnant

Let me know if there's anything I can do to help, parsimon.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 1:15 PM
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Apparently, if you are due after age 35, they mark your chart as "advanced maternal age." (This is a source of great irritation to the friend in 56.)


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 1:15 PM
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58: You know you are Irish when you have female relatives named Bernie. (Mine's an aunt, not a cousin.)


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 1:15 PM
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I, too, am excited about Super Texas Tuesday, for the obvious reasons, but also so that I can answer my phone again

Wednesday, everyone call Sir Kraab!

On her landline!

(BR makes us still have a landline with a cord. Crazy.)


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 1:15 PM
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What is this? Fairness? Let's pretend we want to win.

I used to work with a guy who would say, whenever a hated sports team lost a game, "The only thing that coulda been better is if they'da been cheated out of it."

Now I don't know if I'd go so far as to prefer cheating, but if McCain loses because a bunch of Republican votes get lost in Florida, I won't boohoo about it.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 1:15 PM
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If McCain's family is like mine, he could do 8 years as president.


Posted by: Populuxe | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 1:17 PM
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parsimon:

Do you want to have kids or just practice?


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 1:17 PM
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21: Meh, I wouldn't worry about it too much. First, you don't have to hate someone to think they're bad for the job. Second, as sb said, there are plenty of other reasons to oppose McCain in addition to his age.

Third, there are problems with age in addition to fears of him actually dying in office. Which is a little like what NPH said, but not exactly. McCain will be 72 years old by the time he's sworn in. The Cold War began when he was 10 years old. Microsoft was created the year he turned 40. An awareness of the modern world is not the only consideration in choosing a candidate, of course, but I think it's fair to at least consider it.


Posted by: Cyrus | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 1:21 PM
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I feel certain that's not true for HRC (or Sebelius or Napolitano, etc.) When do most people go through menopause?

I shouldn't have used the word "candidate," as I wasn't talking about politics (or at least not exclusively about politics and definitely not trying to secretly slam Hillary). I just meant for a job in general, any job, it would be unfair to refuse to hire someone on the grounds they might wind up taking medical leave at some point and that was the analogy I essentially drew out of a hat. Still, here I am derailing the McCain hate when I in fact want to see more of it; so, now with the me shutting up.


Posted by: Robust McManlyPants | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 1:21 PM
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67: Practice having kids? or practice trying to have kids?

But no, it's quite simple, really: I'd be pleased not to have to use birth control if I didn't have to.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 1:25 PM
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Yeah, I've seen The Straight Story too. Great movie.

There was one of these old tractor-driving guys in my town, too.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 1:25 PM
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70:

Yea. me too.

I know plenty of women in their 40s who got pregnant.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 1:27 PM
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71: It's not uncommon, much like the younger and drunker version.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 1:30 PM
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72: Any of them older than 42-43?

70: Your gyno would know better than I, but if you're past 45, I would guess (in a completely off the cuff kind of way you'd be a fool to rely on, of course) that you're safe. Between 40 and 45 you're in that annoying zone where there's a fair chance you're infertile, but not high enough to use it reliably as birth control.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 1:30 PM
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Between 40 and 45 you're in that annoying zone where there's a fair chance you're infertile, but not high enough to use it reliably as birth control.

Boo. This will hereby make the practice even more annoying.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 1:32 PM
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but not high enough to use it reliably as birth control

Yeah, you gotta get totally wasted for it to work and most people just don't have it in them past 40.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 1:34 PM
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I don't think there's much they can do to test for whether age related infertility has kicked in yet.

This is right. From what I understand, part of it is that women either stop ovulating or ovulate much more irregularly, and that the eggs tend to be less viable when they do. That, in combination with the lessening or absence of other bodily things that make pregnancy more likely. So while it is extremely unlikely that a mid-40s woman would get pregnant, all the elements could still line up in any given month.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 1:35 PM
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Between 40 and 45 you're in that annoying zone where there's a fair chance you're infertile,

I think this is incorrect.

A fair statement might be that you are not very fertile, but still fertile.

I suspect that the fertility rates for women from 45 to 55 have increased dramatically. But, that is just a guess on my part.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 1:35 PM
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You know, I've tried to sell them to other people here before, but ask your gyno for an IUD? It's a couple of hundred bucks, but no trouble at all after it's in, and the big scary possible side effect is infertility. And they last for ten years, so by the time it has to come out, you're home free. (I, maddeningly, am going to have to have mine out at 41. Leaving me, by family history, with probably 3-4 more years to watch out; my uncle was born in my grandmother's mid-forties, and there's Bernie.)


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 1:36 PM
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I suspect that the fertility rates for women from 45 to 55 have increased dramatically.

Why would you guess that? (Just curious.)


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 1:37 PM
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78: I suspect that the fertility rates for women from 45 to 55 have increased dramatically. But, that is just a guess on my part.

Depends on if you're counting egg donation. With donated eggs, there's no real age limit; age-related infertility is mostly about your own eggs.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 1:38 PM
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A fair statement might be that you are not very fertile, but still fertile.

Hrm. I'm not seeing the distinction here. What I'm saying is that for women having regular unprotected sex, a decent percentage of those over forty aren't ever going to get pregnant from it, increasing to almost all of them at forty-five.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 1:39 PM
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79: I'll ask about this.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 1:40 PM
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Why would you guess that? (Just curious.)

Just a guess, but based on men and women becoming more healthy and living longer lives.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 1:40 PM
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Hrm. I'm not seeing the distinction here. What I'm saying is that for women having regular unprotected sex, a decent percentage of those over forty aren't ever going to get pregnant from it, increasing to almost all of them at forty-five.

Blume spelled it out.

infertile means no babies. less fertile means less likely to have babies.

Big difference.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 1:41 PM
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will's statement makes sense to me. Pregnancy is much less likely to occur in any given month, but that doesn't mean you're infertile. Problem being that there's no way to predict when things will fall just right so that pregnancy does occur.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 1:41 PM
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84: Nah. Women in their forties aren't (and haven't historically been) infertile because they're old and unhealthy, it's just a timing thing.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 1:42 PM
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81: Okay, dumb question that I shouldn't even be asking hypothetically. But does this also suggest that you could prolong your own biological fertility by, well, putting a couple dozen eggs in the freezer?


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 1:43 PM
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85: Oh, I got you -- that the chance that you'd get pregnant any month has dropped low enough that the odds are it's never going to happen doesn't mean that it wasn't a real possibility. Yeah, fair enough. But for any individual woman, she's almost certainly going to hit 'no chance at all' in any given month before 45.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 1:44 PM
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88: My understanding is that they're still working on freezing eggs. For some reason, you can freeze embryos indefinitely, but eggs have to be fresh. Annoying, no?

If you could freeze eggs, I'd think it'd be a professional woman who thinks she wants kids routine thing to do at 25 or so.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 1:46 PM
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89 et al. It seems to me that the concept you're looking for here is `expectation time'.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 1:46 PM
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Pregnancy is much less likely to occur in any given month, but that doesn't mean you're infertile. Problem being that there's no way to predict when things will fall just right so that pregnancy does occur.

Exactly. So it depends on whether you are willing to gamble. Risk taking is a very personal thing.

A 15 percent risk to catch a cold is not a big risk.

A 15 percent risk to get pregnant might be considered huge.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 1:46 PM
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77: It's a combination of things. Eggs failing to release, eggs release but being too old, lining being too thin for the egg to implant, lining being good enough to implant but not good enough to sustain the pregnancy. Body acting up halfway through.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 1:46 PM
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But they may have solved the egg thing -- I think I read something about it recently.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 1:46 PM
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Oh, I got you -- that the chance that you'd get pregnant any month has dropped low enough that the odds are it's never going to happen doesn't mean that it wasn't a real possibility. Yeah, fair enough. But for any individual woman, she's almost certainly going to hit 'no chance at all' in any given month before 45.

Just admit that you are wrong, LB.

there is a difference between infertile and small chance.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 1:47 PM
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Egg harvesting is a pretty invasive process, though. Not sure I'd have been up for that in my 20s.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 1:48 PM
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What? I'm not disagreeing with you, just saying that there is a point where you're at 'no chance at all', and it's somewhere around 45.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 1:48 PM
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93: Yeah, that's what I meant by "other bodily things". And also much less fertile quality cervical fluid, making the timing of intercourse much more important.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 1:50 PM
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Following the discussion with interest, since I want kids and it's made me think I should limit myself to dating women younger than I am (40). Which sucks, but that's biology for you.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 1:50 PM
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PGD, are you trying to start a fight?


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 1:51 PM
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98: Yea, I wasn't disagreeing, just elaborating. The 'hormone drop that terminates pregnancies' was specifically the problem my friend had.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 1:52 PM
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fuck it, no, redact 99.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 1:52 PM
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100: I was just kind of surprised that the thought hadn't occurred to him before.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 1:52 PM
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I'm a little younger than PGD, but there are weird cycles to this. For a little while, I was having real trouble meeting anyone (dateable) who wasn't 10+ years younger than I. So that's who I ended up dating, which probably reinforced things.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 1:53 PM
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99, 100: Heh. Face it, it's true for 40ish men, perhaps even late 30s men. A drag, but there it is, if they want kids.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 1:53 PM
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Egg harvesting is a pretty invasive process, though. Not sure I'd have been up for that in my 20s.

Yeah, in your 20s, you are invincible and hardly consider it possible that you could someday be zeroing in on 40 with increasing concern that your last crack at babies will soon slip by. Hypothetically, of course.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 1:55 PM
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102: Oh, man. Look, 99 really wasn't an evil thing to say, albeit a little offhandedly clueless, and if anyone's offended I'll help tell them to lay off. But I really shouldn't have redacted that comment for Heebie yesterday, and I don't want to start redacting comments for anything other than protecting people's privacy.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 1:55 PM
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I was at least half joking in 100, but it is a touchy subject. (In general, not necessarily just for me personally.)


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 1:55 PM
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100: of course it occurred to me, in fact I study the stuff obsessively, because I tend to like women around my age (the younger ones tend not to be world-weary enough for me). There is at least one 40 year old woman I really liked recently who I ruled out dating for basically the kids reason. So I'm always interested in the possibility of finding a loophole in the biology. But anyway, it's too personal a subject / choice for me to engage the standard Unfogged food fight on the issue.


Posted by: PerfectlyGoddamnDelightful | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 1:56 PM
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Yeah, redaction is a bad habit to get into.

I just read PGDs 99 with a `gee, ya think?' response much like LBs.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 1:57 PM
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Of course, male fertility declines with age, too. So, really, women who want kids should be thinking younger, too.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 1:57 PM
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109 was meant to go to 103.

You don't have to redact, I just didn't want to have to defend my statement as though it was some kind of Correct Opinion as opposed to a tricky personal choice I'm backing into because of various life priorities.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 1:58 PM
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TV and the movies make this whole "getting pregnant" think look so easy. People do it by accident!

Fuckers.

I'm becoming an expert-by-proxy on various conditions that make women anovulatory, and on the delicate breath-holding agony between "positive pregnancy test" and "pregnancy."


Posted by: James K. Polk | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 2:00 PM
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112 makes sense to me. This stuff is tricky, and lots of people can end up with diminished options through perfectly reasonable priorities.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 2:00 PM
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112: I think that's clear, PGD. Although I cried a little when I saw 99. Not for myself, exactly -- I don't want kids, and even if I did, I'm still within the dateable age for PGD (hey there, PGD!) -- but boy, what a crummy world.


Posted by: jms | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 2:00 PM
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112: Fair enough. 40's a funny age, as we've been saying -- if kids are a real priority for you, things could still work out if you move fast, but you can't count on it. (Not that you can ever count on anything.) And of course, adoption and egg donation.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 2:02 PM
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There's adoption. I have an adopted nephew and a niece (among 9 total). They function as well as the others.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 2:04 PM
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That sounds rough, President Polk. Good luck.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 2:06 PM
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They function as well as the others.

So far. Better keep the receipts in a safe place though, just to be sure.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 2:06 PM
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Likewise.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 2:06 PM
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There is at least one 40year old woman I really liked recently who I ruled out dating for basically the kids reason.

PGD, don't limit yourself if you like her (and she is/might be interested in kids). IVF, egg donation & etc. are expensive and difficult but often successful. (And adoption, of course, but I won't reopen that discussion.)


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 2:07 PM
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114: I think my actual thing for me was that I had a lot of career backtracking and confusion that led me to delay settling down, so in that sense it's "my fault". Really, I feel like I'm facing pretty much the same set of issues with family / fertility choices as single women do, just delayed 5-7 years.

Not having kids does allow you to kick around and be more free and do more stuff in a sense, so in a short term having fun sense it's fine. But for whatever weird reason I can't quite imagine going through life without having kids -- always assumed I would.


Posted by: PerfectlyGoddamnDelightful | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 2:07 PM
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Following the discussion with interest, since I want kids and it's made me think I should limit myself to dating women younger than I am (40). Which sucks, but that's biology for you.

There isn't anything wrong with this comment.

Back in the pre-BR days, I told women that I didn't want any more kids. If they wanted to get pregnant, then they shouldn't get serious with me. It wouldnt be fair to keep that fact hidden.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 2:08 PM
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pwned, but worth repeating. It's not as though it's easy to find the right person.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 2:08 PM
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120 to 119.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 2:10 PM
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don't limit yourself if you like her (and she is/might be interested in kids). IVF, egg donation & etc. are expensive and difficult but often successful. (And adoption, of course, but I won't reopen that discussion.)

Sir Kraab is correct (as always-that b/tch!)

My ex-fiancee (41 at the time) met a 31 yr old who wanted to have a kid. She got pregnant.

A friend of BR's did IVF at 38 or 39 and got pregnant.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 2:10 PM
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For some people, having kids is important enough that finding simply the right-enough person is good enough, and the "right" person must be passed by. (Witness some of the "settle!" advice columns we've talked about recently.) It's rough on all parties, but will's got the right idea in 123.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 2:11 PM
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Bummer James Polk. Pregnancy really is an amazingly frustrating topic. The moment it is desired, it becomes elusive.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 2:13 PM
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My mom forgot her protection at 41 and got pregnant. I have two accidental brothers. We never let them forget it.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 2:13 PM
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Hell, I know someone who accidentally (i.e. in the face of birth control) got pregnant at 42. But somewhere in there, you have to lose the comfortable feeling that you can just stop using birth control and it will happen. However inaccurate that might be, and of course assuming that's what you want.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 2:13 PM
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This is kind of grisly, but are there dating sites where 'interested in kids and in moving fast because of biological clock issues' is an explicit subject of discussion?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 2:13 PM
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131 why not, seems like there's one for everything else.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 2:14 PM
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Aw, will, aren't you sweet.

My sister-in-law had twins at 46. (Damn, is she glad that 3rd embryo didn't take.)


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 2:15 PM
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but will's got the right idea in 123.

I was great on first dates:

"You should understand that I don't want any more kids. And you know that my daughter is REALLY high maintanence and will probably hit you. Did I mention my crazy ex-wife? I hope you are not anti-abortion bc you need to know that my family is really involved with a lot of them."


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 2:15 PM
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Techniques for freezing eggs apparently improved in 2001. Recent review Full text behind a paywall.


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 2:16 PM
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between "positive pregnancy test" and "pregnancy."

I'm not sure I understand. Do you mean that you're getting false positives from pregnancy tests? Or quick miscarriages? Or none of my goddamned business?


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 2:16 PM
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124- Yeah, it's much better to do it in that order. Thinking 'I really like her and she can have my children' can go wrong in so many ways (imagine what happens if it ends up either of you can't conceive, for example).


Posted by: asl | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 2:17 PM
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136: My strong guess would be quick miscarriages. I've never heard of getting a string of false positives on pregnancy tests.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 2:18 PM
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134: "Oh, and every full moon, I climb over the moat and go searching for human blood. So, can I call you again?"


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 2:18 PM
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Not sure I'd have been up for that in my 20s

Blume isn't in her 20s? I think it's funny how I assume everyone is the same age I am. Actually, I assume everyone is 2-3 years older than me, 'cause that's how old everyone I seem to hang around is.


Posted by: m. leblanc | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 2:18 PM
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134: To be honest, this is one reason I don't shy away from revealing my age; I think (not completely sure, but I think) I look younger than I am, and I don't want people to be confused.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 2:18 PM
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I've got a bad feeling about tomorrow.


Posted by: strasmangelo jones | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 2:19 PM
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138: As I say, I have 6 siblings because of the two miscarriages. My parents were natalists. They might as well have been Catholic.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 2:19 PM
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141:

I just assumed that you and I are the same age.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 2:20 PM
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142: What could go wrong?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 2:20 PM
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145:

The eggs.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 2:21 PM
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140: Barely not-- just turned 30 last summer. And have already adopted worldly wise airs!


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 2:21 PM
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When did this turn into a pregnancy thread? People, I need fellow paranoids to talk to and vent with.


Posted by: strasmangelo jones | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 2:21 PM
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I've got a bad feeling about tomorrow.

Don't worry, stras. There's no way Carolina's going to lose to Florida State on their home court.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 2:22 PM
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I have a cousin whose wife had cancer treatments in her 20s and had her eggs frozen before her whole reproductory apparatus stopped functioning (and before she met Cuz) . They used the frozen eggs with his sperm and a surrogate and have a very charming baby.

I think this must have been before 2001, but it could have been right around there.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 2:22 PM
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142: Based on data (anec or otherwise), or just that sinking feeling that always accompanies Democrats and elections?


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 2:23 PM
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Seriously, what are you afraid of? You're rooting for Obama, and 9 out of 10 he puts Clinton away tomorrow. Even if it's not absolutely over, the odds that she comes back at this point are minimal. So what are you worrying about?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 2:23 PM
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I like your style, Blume. Back in my 20s, by which, I mean, seven months ago. Mwahahahaha!


Posted by: m. leblanc | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 2:23 PM
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145: You're 40, right? I'm a couple years older.

And ... I was waiting for someone to start thumping the table and demanding a political thread.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 2:23 PM
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Barely not-- just turned 30 last summer

Shoot, you're barely legal.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 2:24 PM
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I'm counting on Sir Kraab, M/tch, Heebie, Jammies and the rest to do the right thing tomorrow.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 2:24 PM
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I actually have a neighbor who used her husband's frozen sperm to get pregnant and have his baby after he died in Iraq.

As long as we're on the whole frozen stuff and pregnancy theme.

But I also respect Stras' need for paranoid anxiety. There's a decent chance that Hill will take Ohio and Texas -- she will definitely take Ohio, it looks like, and it's close in Texas.


Posted by: PerfectlyGoddamnDelightful | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 2:25 PM
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Shoot, you're barely legal.

Apo says, leeringly.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 2:26 PM
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Sir Kraab had better vote for Obama, what with Mark Penn being a Clinton advisor.


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 2:26 PM
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150 is a little wrong. A quick google reveals that she had cancer treatments around 1990. The eggs musta been harvested more recently. Maybe they were always good eggs and it was some other reproductive part that got screwed up by the radiation.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 2:26 PM
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Even if Hillary does ok tomorrow, I'm not sure that's a bad thing. My current pet theory is that dragging the primary out could work for us -- assuming we ultimately get the outcome most of us here want. It keeps the focus on Dems instead of McCain, while allowing Obama to starting campaigning against McCain. (Has he started doing that in his speeches? I haven't seen it, but I think he should.)

Or am I on crack?


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 2:27 PM
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But just taking Ohio and Texas isn't a win for her. She needs to get landslides to make up his lead, no?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 2:27 PM
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155: high five!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 2:27 PM
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I'm counting on Sir Kraab, M/tch, Heebie, Jammies and the rest to do the right thing tomorrow.

We're on it.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 2:28 PM
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145: Well, Clinton's going to probably win Rhode Island, and she looks good in polls in Ohio, and even if she doesn't get any significant delegate win she'll be spinning anything as an Obama-halting comeback, and the media, having grown bored of the "Obama wins" story, will eagerly lap it up. This will fuel a Clinton mini-comeback that, while not significant enough to actually beat Obama, will drag out the primary for another month at least, while her campaign gets increasingly desperate and the Muslim smears start to fly in increasingly reputable forums, making it increasingly likely that the next president is John McCain.


Posted by: strasmangelo jones | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 2:28 PM
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138: I believe with IVF they shoot you full of pregnancy hormones to try to help implantation along, so that you will initially test positive whether or not the little fellas have actually taken root. I think.

Anyway, JKP, my bestest friend just went through hell in the whole trying to get pregnant process, and from what I could see, it really is hugely stressful. Best of luck!


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 2:29 PM
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Shoot, you're barely legal.

Have I mentioned that I got carded when I bought spray paint?


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 2:29 PM
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161 is how I feel. And Obama has started campaigning against possibly-virile McCain more than presumed-infertile Hill.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 2:29 PM
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she will definitely take Ohio

I don't think it's definite
.

The National Weather Service is looking for freezing rain to cover most of the northern half of the state, which will be under a winter storm through Wednesday morning. The weather service says if temperatures fail to crack the freezing mark on Tuesday, a "significant" coating of ice is possible.

Across most of southern Ohio, there's a threat of heavy rain and flooding. The forecasters expect 1 to 2 inches of rainfall in the region on primary day, with even higher amounts possible in some areas.

Hard to predict the effect.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 2:30 PM
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One reason not to use the "McCain is old" argument: Wesley Clark will be just about McCain's current age in 2016 (Clark was born in Dec. '44, so he'd be 71 for most of the year). And might well be the next Vice-President. And therefore might be the President after next.


Posted by: washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 2:30 PM
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165 and 161, we should note, are more useful as barometers of the authors' personalities than as political analysis.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 2:30 PM
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the Muslim smears start to fly in increasingly reputable forums

This, I think, is paranoid -- while they can do a lot of damage under the radar, I don't think they can get any higher profile than they have been. There's nothing a respectable news outlet can say about them to create doubt. (Oh, they can do a whole lot of reporting of the phenomenon of the smears, but they really can't pull the 'Shape of the Earth, Opinions Differ' stuff they pulled on Kerry.)


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 2:31 PM
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Sir Kraab had better vote for Obama, what with Mark Penn being a Clinton advisor.

No worries there. It definitely factored into my decision.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 2:31 PM
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The latest spin is the following:

People are taking a second look at Hillary. Therefore, she only needs improvement tomorrow bc more people are starting to come to her.

Another spin:

The Dems are in BIG trouble because McCain is only a little behind the Republicans.


Gotta love it.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 2:32 PM
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161, 168: How is having two national figures trashing Obama for being inexperienced better than one? And if Hillary wins, how is it an improvement to have her split the party in doing it?


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 2:32 PM
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REpublicans s/b Democrats


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 2:32 PM
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How old do you have to be to buy spray paint? Is this a 21 year-old thing or is 18 old enough?


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 2:33 PM
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172 strikes me as naive, while Stras strikes me as paranoid. Comity!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 2:33 PM
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167: My ex-best friend and I got carded in a restaurant once ordering wine. Neither of us had i.d. I protested that it was ridiculous not to serve us as we clearly were both well over 21. The hostess considered the argument, gave both of us a close look, and then agreed that it would be ridiculous not to serve me. My ex-friend, however, (only a few months younger!) she just couldn't be sure of. Bitterest damned bottle of wine I ever drank.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 2:33 PM
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Blume and Sifu are taggers.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 2:34 PM
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Heh. I wasn't there, but that happened to a table full of sixteen year old friends of mine once. The waitress served all the girls, not the boy. He was cross.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 2:34 PM
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169: Another reason our system sucks (and a point in favor of voting by mail, though I'm not completely sold on it). It's fucked up that the weather in one part of one state can have a major effect on a national election.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 2:36 PM
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172: When the media spreads the Muslim smear, they'll do it in one of two ways - either the way the Washington Post did, by "reporting on the controversy," or the way 60 Minutes did, by innocently asking other people if they believe Obama when he says he's not a Muslim. The very fact that they dignify this smear by talking about it - in a way that they don't dignify, say, the smear that Clinton killed Vince Foster - spreads it around.


Posted by: strasmangelo jones | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 2:36 PM
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145: mcmanus has been awfully quiet...TOO quiet.

I think Obama is less likely to win Texas than lose Ohio, & the race is unlikely to end before Pennsylvania. But mainly, I should just learn to stop obsessing. Ha.

My poor stepfather was in PGD's shoes a few years back--he married someone over 10 years older than him, & got 4 obnoxious twentysomething stepdaughters. But on the plus side: grandkids.


Posted by: Katherine | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 2:36 PM
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60 Mins said that it wasnt true, didnt they?

I thought the guy said it. Then, the 60 Mins guy said, "You know that it isnt true?"


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 2:37 PM
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180: I do keep an apartment in Berlin, you know.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 2:38 PM
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I think Obama is less likely to win Texas than lose Ohio

I'm probably thick, but what are you saying exactly? You think that he'll lose Ohio and split Texas?


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 2:39 PM
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I got carded for admission to see 8 Mile, when I was 34. Then the kid behind the glass looks at my ID and says:
"Whoa!"
"What?"
"Oh nothing, sir, just most people coming to see this movie..." [trails off, realizing it's the least bad strategy now]
"Thanks. Can I have my tickets, please?"


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 2:40 PM
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Thanks, all. I really shouldn't complain, as so many people have it much worse. We've been paranoid about "chemical pregnancies" (essentially, quick miscarriages) because of low progesterone, blah, blah, blah, but for all of our angst, we're looking at relatively good odds, and haven't even been trying that long, in the scheme of things. It just feels like forever. Here's to competent RE's, and miracle drugs.

So, anyhoo, if you all could think positive thoughts about hCG levels doubling by Wednesday, that'd be great.


Posted by: James K. Polk | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 2:40 PM
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BG, if inability to understand Katherine there makes you thick, than it makes two of us.


Posted by: washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 2:40 PM
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I used to think the best thing possible would be a brokered convention because then we remain the only game in town for the media to talk about. Now I'm starting to think it would be way better to get it over with, have an enormous love fest and let the media have a chance at catching McCain being the flaming, aggro-happy asshole he's reputed to be in private.


Posted by: Robust McManlyPants | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 2:41 PM
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188:

Wow Apo. Just based on appearance? Not on your behavior? I wouldnt have guessed.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 2:41 PM
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189: Oh, man, right now? Geometric progression, go! Best of luck.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 2:41 PM
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I think she's likely to win Ohio & I have no idea about Texas. Last week it looked like if the trends continued he might be ahead in Texas & Ohio might be a tossup.


Posted by: Katherine | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 2:41 PM
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192: I think he was just carding people as a matter of course. There's no way in hell I could have passed for 18.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 2:42 PM
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Geez Polk. I've always hoped for the opposite, but I will try to wish for high levels for you!

Go eggs! Go little swimmers!


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 2:43 PM
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There's no way in hell I could have passed for 18.

None of the high school girls at the movie believed you either?


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 2:44 PM
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Just went through hell in the whole trying to get pregnant process.

In the transhuman world of the future you'll be able to just mail it in. Literally. No messy sex, emotions, desire, compatability issues, courtship, relationships, etc.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 2:44 PM
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Go eggs! Go little swimmers!

In honor of which, ogged just threw up a swimming post. Snap those tails!


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 2:47 PM
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186: is "post-hip" code for "yuppified"?


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 2:49 PM
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Did they use that for Prenzlauer Berg? Then yeah.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 2:51 PM
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Interception! Contraception! Stop that ball!

No wait, that's the wrong cheer.

Knock 'em up! Knock 'em up! Let's go Polk!


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 2:51 PM
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200: how exactly do we distinguish between yuppified and gentrified, if at all?


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 2:53 PM
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We probably don't.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 2:56 PM
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In this case, I think 'post-hip' could also be shorthand for 'so 2001'.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 3:01 PM
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Election report:

I'm in the much discussed 10th district of Cuyahoga county in Ohio. Obama (and Kucinich! [for the house]) have already received my vote.

We have had three people come to our door for Obama, along with more Obama mailings & phone calls than we can count. Nothing from Hillary's people.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 3:02 PM
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Don't worry, stras. There's no way Carolina's going to lose to Florida State on their home court.

Well, it's certainly never happened before.


Posted by: Gabriel | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 3:17 PM
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184:145: mcmanus has been awfully quiet...TOO quiet.

Let me check my pulse...still alive.

Have some spring duties and recreations. Feeling frustrated & inadequate. Really wanting to read, like, everything, but especially books. Picked up Cleanth Brooks Modern Rhetoric off a free site, Duret & Dewhurst on Impressionism, Clive Bell. Bored with news & blogs.

Keep worrying tomorrow's vote, with the Clinton vote for the Iraq War in mind. She showed such "bad judgement" in so many people's estimation. How could I criticize the governance of Barack Obama, if I showed such terrible judgement myself by voting for him? And if I am unable to criticize President Obama, who else will? I am already seeing Obama supporters saying Obama will need their 110% support after the Inauguration to get the Obama Program passed. Whatever that program might be, I suppose.

So many people, so many Republicans have said:"Well I thought George Bush would be OK. I didn't know, could not have known Bush would do these things, be so bad." I have little respect for those people.

But a vote for HRC would be wasted. So I may stay home, or walk the dogs.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 3:26 PM
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Hagel in at Defense, Lugar in at State, as rumoured? No Democrats competent to handle security or foreign policy?

I really would feel like a tool saying "Fuck Obama" after I voted for him. Can't do it.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 3:31 PM
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Oh. And heard a great line from a William Buckley interview that is pertinent to my commenting. I was in the car, so couldn't write it down, so will miss his style in paraphrase:

"I wouldn't be so rude as to stop a parade just to criticize the bandleader." ...WFB

See ya around. Enjoy.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 3:41 PM
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208-209: stay home. Preserve your freedom to curse them all on the net!


Posted by: PerfectlyGoddamnDelightful | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 4:03 PM
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Don't stay home, mcmanus. Go and vote for HRC, if only to register your lack of support for Obama.


Posted by: Mary Catherine | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 4:06 PM
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This has me feeling slightly warmer towards HRC. Of course, the timing is blatantly political, & I will take his overall record on military contractors over hers: writing a bill on accountability months before Nisour Square counts for more than co-sponsoring as an obvious way to get to your opponent's left during a Democratic primary in my book. But, I wouldn't have guessed that she was willing to do that much. And I am getting pretty disgruntled about all my: "hi! I am currently suing two major contractors & have a huge background on detainee issues, could I maybe get on the real volunteer policy committee" & similar emails having zero effect...

In any case: that article is an example of exactly the sort of pressure & scrutiny that any Democratic nominee, including Obama, needs. Jan Schakowsky is a supporter from way back, & Scahill implicitly seems to be one too, but they'll still pressure him from the left. I am going to have no reservations at all about saying "Fuck Obama" when he deserves it.


Posted by: Katherine | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 4:23 PM
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Oops, 213 is missing the link. I'm referring to this article


Posted by: katherine | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 4:24 PM
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Regarding fertility by maternal age, here is some interesting historical data.

And according to this fertility at 40 is still pretty high.


Posted by: James B. Shearer | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 4:49 PM
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Hagel in at Defense, Lugar in at State, as rumoured?

If I believed that rumor I might support Clinton. I choose not to believe it. Sinister chaff thrown up by the Moonies, LaRouchies, Knghts of Malta, and Bavarian Illuminati working in temporary alliance against The Great Beast.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 5:26 PM
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Sinister chaff thrown up by the Moonies, LaRouchies, Knghts of Malta, and Bavarian Illuminati working in temporary alliance against The Great Beast.

Or, stories about U.S. politics which are reported exclusively in Murdoch-owned British papers are to be discounted?


Posted by: washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 5:30 PM
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We (here in RI) got a HRC campaign flyer in the mail today accusing Obama of planning "to raise Social Security taxes by a trillion dollars." By comparison, the Obama campaign hung a helpful door-hanger with the address of our polling place.

Obama it is!


Posted by: mrh | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 5:42 PM
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Obama has mentioned Hagel, Lugar and Schwarzenegger as possible Cabinet picks.


Posted by: Mary Catherine | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 5:45 PM
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Mr. H, the Obama campaign kept emailing me (and half the rest of the world) to do things like call people in your state or even travel there to go door-to-door. I didn't do either of those, so I'm now encouraging you to not only vote for Obama, but to encourage someone else in your state to vote for Obama.


Posted by: washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 5:46 PM
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There's nothing new about having a member of the loyal opposition in your cabinet. Bush had Dem Norm Mineta as Transpo. Clinton had R William Cohen as Defense.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 5:52 PM
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219 is pretty scary.

Too late for me and bob to succeed in the Edwards support, though.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 5:54 PM
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I really would feel like a tool saying "Fuck Obama" after I voted for him.

But look at it this way: seeing as how you're already something of a tool, you can vote for him tomorrow with a clear conscience!

I don't regard a vote for any candidate as a marriage vow. Just because someone has my support now, doesn't guarantee them my support in the future. And anyone who does believe that is an idiot.


Posted by: Populuxe | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 5:55 PM
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Mary Catherine, thanks. In these crazy times who can remember news reports from all the way back in December? Apparently, not me.


Posted by: washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 5:57 PM
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223:We will see how many here actively oppose the various parts of the Obama agenda in 2009.

But what will that even mean? "Senator X, vote against Obama's Health Care Plan, or at least take out Section A or I'll...I'll...hold my breath." With the machine Obama is building, answerable and controlled by himself, outside of the Democratic Party apparatus, Senator X will fear Obama more than he fears you. Obama is different.

Thank goodness all of Obama's proposals will be perfect.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 6:03 PM
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With the machine Obama is building, answerable and controlled by himself, outside of the Democratic Party apparatus, Senator X will fear Obama more than he fears you. Obama is different.

bob, you have convinced me. I can't take back the money I sent Obama a few months ago, and the primary in my state already happened. Should I vote for McCain so the Democrats can keep their powder dry for a Hillary run in 2012, or should I take a chance on Obama?


Posted by: water moccasin | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 6:13 PM
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But Bob, you really don't want Obama's Healh Cre Plan to fail, do you? Start bitching and get disunited, and the whole coalition will fall apart under the pressure from the Insurance Companies and Republicans. I know it isn't exactly what we wanted, but it is the best we can do, and we can't afford to wait another 16 years. It could destroy the Obama Presidency, like it did Bill's.

IOW, Populuxe, I don't believe you.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 6:14 PM
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I don't regard a vote for any candidate as a marriage vow. Just because someone has my support now, doesn't guarantee them my support in the future.

It's not a marriage vow, but it's not the dating game either. At this point, there's no more playing the field. You're narrowing it down from two candidates to one, and that one is the candidate you'll have to support in November (unless you're willing to vote GOP, of course, which I hope no Democrat is willing to do).


Posted by: Mary Catherine | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 6:19 PM
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5: My sister thinks that Obama gets it but isn't sure if she's registered and if she is, is probably Republican.

Your sister can find out if she's registered by getting in touch with her County Board of Elections. To register or change her registration, she needs to send in a registration form by March 22. Forms are here.

She can also call 1-800-552-VOTE for information.


Posted by: the Other Paul | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 6:43 PM
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I also know a big Obama-ite who's from PA and might be able to help her with this, if she'd like.

Go Barry!


Posted by: the Other Paul | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 6:52 PM
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With the machine Obama is building, answerable and controlled by himself, outside of the Democratic Party apparatus, Senator X will fear Obama more than he fears you. Obama is different.

Blow me, bob. The alternative is the Clinton machine, which has deeper roots, and delivered six years of Democratic supineness in opposition. Oh, and a war in Iraq. But, hey, heighten the contradictions, motherfucker. What could go wrong with that?


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 6:53 PM
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Surely there must be some alternative that doesn't involve blowing you OR the Clinton machine.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 7:08 PM
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Bob's 208 is interesting me:

How could I criticize the governance of Barack Obama, if I showed such terrible judgement myself by voting for him? And if I am unable to criticize President Obama, who else will?

Hey, Bob, you know this is paralyzing talk. Electoral politics is always a crapshoot to one degree or another. Opting out for fear of having been wrong, from an overactive conscience (very odd to me that I might say that), is a sissy maneuver.

Sorry, guys, but the thinking here is curious to me as a motivation for those who more or less consistently decline to vote: not that they don't find a candidate worth supporting, but that they refuse to be responsible for what may ensue.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 7:08 PM
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Guys? Plural? Not only does Bob have no argument and no has expressed agreement, but I think there's a better argument that not registering your preference in some official manner (which includes voting for e.g. Donald Duck) worsens your standing to criticize the outcome of an election where you had the fair opportunity to participate.


Posted by: washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 7:12 PM
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Are you referring to Bob in the plural, parsimon? Otherwise I can't figure out who the hell "guys" is supposed to refer to.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 7:12 PM
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Pwned on the huh?-train.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 7:13 PM
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Bob's 208 is interesting me:

Drink less


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 7:13 PM
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I only have one friend here in college who I know campaigned actively for Bush in 2004. Today he joined the "Students for Barack Obama" facebook group.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 7:14 PM
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I mean you all: apologizing preemptively for engaging bob on this matter.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 7:14 PM
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Ok, carry on.


Posted by: washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 7:16 PM
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And Tim, I'm interested because my otherwise beloved, intelligent work partner has a long history of refusing to vote. He and I avoid discussing it.

Anyway, no big deal.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 7:17 PM
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238: Woohoo ! God knows you aren't going to get a majority in this country without the dumb motherfucker vote.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 7:19 PM
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There's nothing new about having a member of the loyal opposition in your cabinet. [a] Bush had Dem Norm Mineta as Transpo. [b] Clinton had William Cohen as Defense.

a. Is Transportation the least important cabinet position now?

b. Clinton was a jerk in lots of ways. You don't have to keep refreshing my memory.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 8:43 PM
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219: MC is an alien, but a bright alien.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 8:44 PM
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Bob, I'm an Obama delegate to the county convention, maybe even to the state convention, and I am very likely to go into opposition the minute he's elected.

It's easy! It's fun! You can choose which enemy will whip your ass and piss you off all the time!

I'd much rather be shit on by Obama than by Hillary or McCain. Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate. Once you've accepted that, the choices are easier.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 8:50 PM
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"Don't vote, it only encourages them" makes a certain sense.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 8:51 PM
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243: Of all the hopes to place in Obama, I would least recommend that you hope for him to ignore a precedented opportunity to create the appearance of unity with a personnel decision.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 9:02 PM
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Although I suppose that hope is already contained in the set defined by ogne speranza.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 9:03 PM
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Semi-OT:

Wow, Jon Stewart can make a candidate sound good. He really brings the humor out of McCain and Clinton in ways that the campaign trail seems to bury.


Posted by: Po-Mo Polymath | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 9:17 PM
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243: Oh. come on. By appointing wingers? Bullshit.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 9:19 PM
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Honestly, Hagel & Lugar *at those particular positions* don't necessarily sound so bad. If he were talking Lindsey Graham, or were talking about anyone Republican at DOJ, I'd be flipping out, but....


Posted by: Katherine | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 9:22 PM
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Since this is the political thread, I'll note here that Clinton was pretty unimpressive on The Daily Show.


Posted by: Becks | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 9:31 PM
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Me still luv Becks.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 9:35 PM
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Honestly, Hagel & Lugar *at those particular positions* don't necessarily sound so bad.

At Defense and State, the two most important cabinet posts? These guys are conservative Republicans. Is it really true that no Democrat can't do foreign policy and defense policy? Is it really true that now we have a one-party system?

Don't make me cry, Katherine. Don't answer those questions.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 9:37 PM
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In what alternate universe is Arnie a winger? He's suing the EPA to let him tighten fuel economy standards, for god's sake. He only got into office in the first place because the Democratic party put forth a wholly uninspiring machine candidate, and then got re-elected after dramatically changing his governing strategy to be more in line with the population of the state.

Granted, he's not doing much about the state of the state's budget, but his ability to do so is hugely limited by the results of years of asinine ballot measures.


Posted by: water moccasin | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 9:38 PM
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At Defense and State, the two most important cabinet posts? These guys are conservative Republicans. Is it really true that no Democrat can't do foreign policy and defense policy? Is it really true that now we have a one-party system?

He's not going to do it, because he's going to be constrained by the Democratic Party. He doesn't have sufficient appartchicks to do his bidding just because he says so; he has to appease the Democrats in ways that Clinton doesn't. You can't win on the war and then fill the post with a Republican, whatever he says.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 9:43 PM
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Hagel and Lugar are wingers. Thank God for what Tim said.

Arnie is a sly bastard, like Norm Coleman and Gordon Smith. He's a water carrier for all kinds of migmoney shits, Enron first among them.

There's no reason to do this kind of thing unless it is true that the Democrats really are all worthless, every single one of them.

Something which I hope is not true.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 9:47 PM
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"big-money"


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 9:47 PM
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Arnie wouldn't be a half bad choice, though. Good unity pick, high favorables, decent record for a Republican. And I agree, John, that he should put Dems in those important posts. I'm just saying that given his unifying politics, I can't see him terminating the tradition of a cabinet Republican. Hopefully it will be a Mineta-like pick.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 9:51 PM
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Actually, Arnie would be a bad choice because he's more famous than the president. A president who's going to govern on celebrity couldn't hire a guy who can draw more cameras than he does.

As for the migmoney, you seem to be forgetting that you're comparing him to the Democratic Party, whose leading lights have not renounced filthy lucre of corporate provenance. Arnie is all about the rise of Arnie. 255 is a very fair picture of him.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 9:54 PM
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Grey Davis, a really horribly centrist Democrat (and a watercarrier for lots of the corporations), actually resisted Enron quite effectively. Arnie cooperated with Enron to get Davis out of there. He had meetings with them before the election. Sorry, Arnie is no fucking good.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 9:57 PM
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Actually, Arnie would be a bad choice because he's more famous than the president. A president who's going to govern on celebrity couldn't hire a guy who can draw more cameras than he does.

Is Obama really governing on celebrity though? Charisma and dreams are similar but not the same. Also, no need to worry (yet) about Arnie angling for his presidential bid. They could run the good-cop bad-cop all day long.

Also, meh on the Enron associations. The CA state legislature put up a huge sign saying "please screw us over", and then Gray Davis capitulated and sold out the state at the exact worst possible moment in an effort to save his political skin. The only saving grace of the whole affair was that he got booted out of office anyway.


Posted by: water moccasin | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 10:00 PM
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I don't have the links but that's bullshit, watermoccasin. Davis resisted Enron and Schwarzenegger worked with Enron.

I see no upside to having Arnie on the cabinet unless the Democrats are all completely weak and worthless. Note that that's a big loophole.

This link pops up immediately.

While Jason Leopold is involved, there are other sources.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 10:07 PM
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Arnie, OTOH, would be unacceptable to me, simply because I do not think he actually knows anything about climate or environmental policy. Good for him that he's not going the usual GOP route on these issues & has actual environmentalists in charge of the DEP, but that doesn't mean he'd be effective.

I don't really care about the foreign affairs sec.'s positions on taxes or abortion. They can be as wingnutty as they like. Hagel & Lugar, for whatever reason, are about the lowest on my shit list for Senate Republicans: the first thing that comes to mind w/ Hagel is being more critical on Iraq than many Democrats; the first things that come to mind w/ Lugar are work on the loose nukes issue & the Biden-Lugar resolution. On the other hand, their voting records are, I'm confident, quite lousy. On the third hand, it might be useful to have a Republican Secretary of Defense advocating for Iraq withdrawal. On the fourth hand, this is probably just a way to suck up to the press that won't amount to anything anyway.


Posted by: Katherine | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 10:09 PM
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On May 24, 2001, future Republican governor Arnold Schwarzenegger and former Los Angeles Mayor Richard Riordan met with Enron CEO Ken Lay, at the Peninsula Hotel in Beverly Hills, at a meeting convened for Enron to present its "Comprehensive Solution for California," which called for an end to Federal and state investigations into Enron's role in the California energy crisis. In October 7th, 2003, Schwarzenegger was elected Governor of California to replace Davis.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 10:13 PM
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There's no reason to put your least obnoxious opponent in charge. Lugar and Hagel have very weakly opposed Bush's Iraq policy because they're not Rove's zombie slaves and they can see what's happening. On the other hand, they're very conservative Republicans on more or less every issue, including foreign and military policy. We don't need to set the bar that low.

If Democrats are actually able to do foreign and defense policy, the way to show it is to appoint Democrats to these positions.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 10:17 PM
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265 link


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 10:19 PM
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Couldn't criticize? You actually think you'd agree with everything that Clinton did? And if I thought that way I'd never vote for anyone, including Hillary who I've voted for twice.


Posted by: tkm | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 10:21 PM
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That's true. Certainly having a member of the GOP in BOTH positions would be awful for that reason. But it's a different sort of situation from Justice, where I don't trust a single Republican to even do the job with basic competence & integrity...Hagel's position on, say, Iran, is preferable to a lot of Democrats'.


Posted by: Katherine | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 10:25 PM
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Davis resisted Enron.

You said "effectively." He did nothing of the sort. He happily took their money for a while. In an effort to save his political skin, he then refused to lift the prohibition on long-term energy contracts that was absolutely vital to Enron's ability to keep manipulating the markets. At the end he finally blinked, and had the state sign long-term contracts at roughly the local maximum for power prices.

Attending the super-secret Enron meeting reported upon only by Greg Palast didn't help the other potential governor at the meeting, Richard Riordan, who was sunk via a clever/underhanded appeal to the anti-abortion lobby by Gray Davis. The recall happened years later.

Davis was a fuckup, and deserved to be recalled. Had the Democratic party accepted this and run someone even vaguely compelling, Arnie would probably never have become governor.


Posted by: water moccasin | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 10:25 PM
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Davis was a fuckup, and deserved to be recalled. Had the Democratic party accepted this and run someone even vaguely compelling, Arnie would probably never have become governor.

The first thing I remember the liberal blogmosphere coalescing around was the "Vote against the recall, and then vote for Cruz Bustamente because the recall is going to go through" movement. A very inauspicious beginning.

What happened to Cruz Bustamente, anyway?


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 10:29 PM
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I'm not defending Davis, I'm opposing Schwarzenegger, who you are defending. Relatively speaking, Davis was better.

Between Palast's word and yours, whoever you are, obviously I'll support Palast.

There are good reasons to despise Davis, but none to support Schwarzenegger. You're confusing the issues.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 10:30 PM
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the first things that come to mind w/ Lugar are work on the loose nukes issue & the Biden-Lugar resolution

An acquaintance at State specifically mentioned Biden-as-Secretary-of-State as a primary reason he voted against Obama, even if it meant voting for Clinton. He also suggested this was a widely held belief among FSOs. Anyone know anything more? I didn't really press him on it.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 10:32 PM
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Biden certainly wants it, but I don't know any particular reason to believe he'll get it. I might prefer Lugar. His overall voting record is worse, but the loose-nuke stuff inspires more confidence than Biden's "let's partition Iraq!" business. Maybe I just can't stand listening to him during hearings, though.


Posted by: Katherine | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 10:42 PM
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273: Taking for granted that Biden would be a bad Sec State nominee, why is Obama more likely to choose him than Clinton?


Posted by: washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 11:16 PM
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because they think Clinton is going to pick Richard Holbrooke.


Posted by: Katherine | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 11:17 PM
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What happened to Cruz Bustamante, anyway?

He ran for Insurance Commissioner on a platform of "Look how much weight I can lose" and lost to Steve Poizner, a moderate R from Palo Alto.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 11:23 PM
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Thanks. While you're answering my questions, do you know if Wes Clark, in his work for the Clinton campaign has said anything about Obama that would prevent Obama from nominating him for either V.P. or Sec State? He's not eligible for Sec. Def. yet.


Posted by: washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 11:24 PM
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because they think Clinton is going to pick Richard Holbrooke.

Yes. That's exactly correct. I couldn't remember the name.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 11:47 PM
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I actually kind of have a problem with hating McCain for being old. . . . It just feels fuzzy and accusatory and discriminatory for reasons I can't quite define.

Because it actually is; we're pretty ageist, as a culture.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 03- 3-08 11:51 PM
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||

I've been having muscle pains in my leg for a week, and now in my neck. I just took a bath, and put some Tiger Balm on the affected areas.

Holy crap, that stuff is powerful. I'm on fire! It hurts, but it is awesome.

|>


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 03- 4-08 12:07 AM
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Oh god, Tiger Balm: rub in mustache; neti pot; sinus promised land. But yes it kind of burns.

Hope you feel better Wrongshore.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 03- 4-08 12:12 AM
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thanks. BTW did you ever see my winter mix, Stanley? I have been proselytizing the Gospel Esophalopagos.

I used to carry a little thing around in high school as part of my weirdo schtick, but I never gave myself a good rubdown. Now I'm waiting to go to bed because I don't want to spoon my gf and give her midnight firepootie.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 03- 4-08 12:17 AM
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283: I had not seen that. Huzzah!


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 03- 4-08 12:21 AM
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261

"Grey Davis, a really horribly centrist Democrat (and a watercarrier for lots of the corporations), actually resisted Enron quite effectively. ..."

"effectively" would better be "ineffectively". Davis's resistence seemed to mostly consist of whining and futilely begging for Bush to bail California out.


Posted by: James B. Shearer | Link to this comment | 03- 4-08 12:37 AM
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Davis was not completely ineffectual -- effectual enough that Enron wanted to, and did, get rid of him, with Schwarzenegger's help. The fact that Schawarzenegger is significantly worse than Gray Davis was is the reason why I am offended by proposals to put him on a Democratic cabinet.

Obama's bipartisanship, which I hope os totally fake, comes at the end of a couple decades during which the sane Republicans have either been driven from the party (Chafee) or cowed into servility (Specter). In policy terms this was a disastrous period. It seems that the Democrats are in a position to put up a solid victory and replace and marginalize the Republicans. In which case, there would be no reason for any more accomodation or bipartisanship than the Republicans showed when they were in office.

At the moment I'm going for the triangulator I don't know as opposed to the one I know. Hopefully the Democrats' next step, after coming in out of the wilderness, will be to find better candidates (policywise).


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 03- 4-08 5:53 AM
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they think Clinton is going to pick Richard Holbrooke

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAUUUUUUUUUUUUGHHHHHHHHH!


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 03- 4-08 6:23 AM
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287- And the return of Susan Ness at the FCC. Both Clinton and Obama support net neutrality, but otherwise they differ in proposed policy. Clinton's web site speaks to protective content (violence, sex, blah, blah), consistent with Clinton 1, while Obama is addressing public-interest obligations and ownership rules.


Posted by: asl | Link to this comment | 03- 4-08 6:49 AM
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protective content (violence, sex, blah, blah)

Desk. Head. BANGBANGBANGBANGBANG.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 03- 4-08 7:13 AM
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289 gets it exactly right. Way to go in exactly the wrong direction , guys.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 03- 4-08 8:14 AM
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"effectively" would better be "ineffectively". Davis's resistence seemed to mostly consist of whining and futilely begging for Bush to bail California out

damn straight.


Posted by: PerfectlyGoddamnDelightful | Link to this comment | 03- 4-08 1:15 PM
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Update! Unfogged mojo works! βhCG = 293!


Posted by: James K. Polk | Link to this comment | 03- 5-08 12:45 PM
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Woot! Fingers still crossed, and all that, but if things develop as hoped, email me with an address and I will totally crochet you something.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03- 5-08 12:47 PM
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Hey! Great news!


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 03- 5-08 12:48 PM
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289 gets it exactly right. Way to go in exactly the wrong direction , guys.

Uggggh, yes.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 03- 5-08 12:49 PM
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Yay babies! Long may they have unfettered access to common carriers!


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 03- 5-08 12:53 PM
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For Apo:

Another obstacle for McCain might be his age. More than a quarter of those polled said they are less inclined to support McCain because, if elected, he would be the oldest person ever to become president. The percentage discouraged by McCain's age is more than double the numbers who would be less enthusiastic about supporting Obama due to his being an African American or Clinton because she is a woman

Sorry, Pants.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 03- 5-08 5:58 PM
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