Oh, yeah, you're getting back into the country. Hope the boss lets you telecommute.
It's "Yankee". Not "Yolanda".
"How about 'Yoni'?"
Whenever I need to use letter words over the phone I just make them up on the fly. And I tend to only use them for s/f and d/p.
I knew a Jolanda in high school, so you're not really winning on clarity. And there's that extra syllable.
Yogi?
I live on the eighth floor, and giving my address over the phone there's always confusion as to whether I'm saying '8' or 'H'. So I say '8 as in octopus', which for some reason doesn't clarify things. I'm not sure why that doesn't work -- it'd make sense to me.
Sorry, Becks, but affirmative racialism doesn't excuse three syllables. Try again.
My current, soon-to-change position involves managing and working a few shifts on a very limited support line, and I'm always surprised by the people who leap straight to saying words instead of letters when trying to give me a ticker symbol. Is it really that hard to hear?
it's also "tango" and "romeo." why wasp-ize "tango" and "romeo" and de-wasp "yankee"? i don't get it.
I just have to say that it should be "Yolanda." And "Yankee." Not "Yolanda". Not "Yankee".
Periods and commas: always inside quotation marks. Unless you have some good reason to leave them out in the cold.
/pendantic punctuation point
'. So I say '8 as in octopus', which for some reason doesn't clarify things
You should say, "8, like The Ocho."
11 - That was my thought, exactly.
Also, this post about flights serves as a notice that I'm going on vacation (and hiating) for a week. Try not to burn the place down!
Tijauana Fiver Railroad Yeti Two Seven
Periods and commas: always inside quotation marks. Unless you have some good reason to leave them out in the cold.
Good reason = making use-mention distinction, rather than quoting something.
The NATO system has "Yankee," but in that system you would have started "Tango Five Romeo." Probably different systems mixing.
12: I put periods or commas inside quotation marks if and only if the period or comma is part of what I'm quoting, e.g. when I'm quoting an entire sentence, or the end of a sentence, that someone else wrote.
If I'm quoting a single word in order to refer to that word, I put the period or comma outside the quotation marks, because it's not part of the word.
The "always inside" rule is stupid and makes no sense.
Periods and commas: always inside quotation marks. Unless you have some good reason to leave them out in the cold.
I do have some good reasons to put them outside the quotation marks. Do you have some good reason to insist that they go inside?
By my reasoning articulated in 18, Becks' post is perfectly punctuated.
(Although I agonize over how to form the possessive of singular proper nouns ending in "s". Should I add the extra "s" after the apostrophe, or not? This is especially agonizing because my last name ends in "s".)
Despite my internet typing, I love The Elements of Style. I also loved Eat, Shoots, and Leaves.
11: You forgot "foxtrot," which sounds a little racy.
Motherfuck putting the motherfucking punctuation marks inside the quotation marks. I feel more strongly about that than I do Clinton versus Obama or the War in Iraq.
I was just happy to see m/tch show up. I was worried that we lost him after the Texas primary. An angry Kraab is a dangerous kraab.
I'm cranky that my flight to Chicago this evening was cancelled, though I guess better now that after I got to the airport.
Blume:
Strunk clearly states that it is *coughs loudly* and not [coughs loudly].
20: Don't agonize, add that "s"!
Mr. Jones's kitty jello recipe won the blue ribbon; Ms. Harris's recipe was disqualified for its high puppy content.
Plurals are harder. The Joneses' recipe and The Harrises' puppies. Yikes.
Probably different systems mixing
Systems? I think Becks was making it up as she went along. Suddenly the clerk couldn't take it anymore. Damned Yankees.
The ITU/NATO alphabet isn't hard to learn. But I grew up watching WWII movies (with Able for A) plus Dragnet and Adam-12, so those were the styles I learned first. Having a set memorized does save time though. No fishing through the memory for a name that starts with P and has a P sound.
I must not have gotten to that part yet! I just got the book for Christmas this year, the edition with the illustrations by Maira Kalman. Haven't finished it yet.
27 - you can't believe that she corrected me, you sexist.
As long as we're being pedantic, I will note that the "alpha, bravo . . . yankee zulu" system was developed was so that the words would be 1) short and 2) easily distinguishable from one another over a sketchy radio connection. So "yankee" was not a random choice. (Consider inevitable comment on "zulu" to be here.)
/childhood spent on boats>
Do you have some good reason to insist that they go inside?
Because it's the rule, according to The Chicago Manual of Style, which I use at work, and Joseph Williams' Style, which I was taught at school, and Strunk and White's Elements of Style, which is another standard reference for such things. Because they look funny hanging on the outside of the quotation marks like that, imho. Because it's a silly pet peeve of mine to see it done differently. Because I am a punctuation pedant, perhaps.
I understand your reasoning, zadfrack*, which is why I added the "unless..." The periods go inside even by your rules. She's quoting herself; she ended the sentence with "Yolanda." Therefore the period goes with her quote, which goes inside the quotation marks.
It may be different across the pond; I don't know. It may even be regional, although I doubt it. I'm just a non-reformed English major, is all.
*Note I am not attributing the beginning quotation to you, but simply responding to your analysis as well. And yes, singular nouns ending in "s" are supposed to get an apostrophe and additional "s" to denote possession. I don't know why. Them's just the rules.
It is different across the pond.
She's quoting herself; she ended the sentence with "Yolanda."
No, she's mentioning the word. Use-mention distinction. You may do that differently with your style, but there is reason to do it the way Becks did.
Who cares? I hate all manuals of style. I follow the British and American systems in aleatoric alternation.
The rule is wrong. Morally wrong. There is a right and wrong in the world, a sense of harmony and justness that transcends any rulebook.
Alpha bravo charlie delta echo foxtrot golf hotel india juliet kilo lima mike november oscar papa quebec romeo sierra tango uniform victor whiskey xray yankee zulu, by the way. On the miniscule chance that anyone gives two figs.
My understanding of the issue is that the commas and periods were supposed to go inside quotes for some technical printing-press reason, not a grammatical reason. But now even the fonts make it look weird for them to be outside.
Not with Unfogged's honorable straight-quotes, though. "Innovate on", I say.
31: Oh, I connected "Robert" and "Thomas" with "Baker" and "Charlie," which I assumed were part of their own partly-separate system.
A for Abel
Could be. That's problem with those homophones. C should have been Cain.
There was a recent Deputy Under Secretary of Defense named Charles Abell. A nickname for him was Baker.
I thought it was A for Abel.
Yankee ingenuity, son. A is for Able.
Apologies if KRK is not a he.
42
when i spell my name people always mix B with D over the phone, even when i say B like in ball or bear, i suppose they hear it like doll or dear may be
i should say bravo then, another alphabet to learn
aleatoric
Emerson is William F. Buckley.
There are times when it's a particularly bad rule, though. I've run into them writing variable glossaries for databases.
The possible values for SymptomSeverity are "None," "Mild," "Moderate," "Strong," and "Severe."
The possible values for SymptomSeverity are "None", "Mild", "Moderate", "Strong", and "Severe".
Which is easier to read?
Blume: I've never seen the use-mention distinction apply to whether the punctuation goes inside or out. Whether the word is italicized or not, yes. Or whether to use single vs. double quotation marks, yes. But not on whether to put the attendant punctuation inside the quotation marks, whether double or single. Neither does my Chicago Manual make any distinction there, so I'm not ready to accept that as a rule for how to punctuate this post. I will stand corrected if it does apply here and if I can find the cite for it.
Ogged: Is w-lfs-n the only one who's allowed to correct other's grammar on unfogged? If so, I apologize profusely and hereby ban myself.
I occasionally want to put the punctuation outside the quotation marks for the use/reference distinction, but it looks painfully wrong.
Also, I endorse 31.1.
46.2 is funny. I love clever, at-a-remove nicknames
Is w-lfs-n the only one who's allowed to correct other's grammar on unfogged?
Good lord, no. Our pedantry is open source.
Good lord. S/b "others' grammar." Heh. I ban myself anyway.
And yes, singular nouns ending in "s" are supposed to get an apostrophe and additional "s" to denote possession.
Isn't Jesus an exception to this rule? And isn't there a funny, punny explanation?
I used to work for an architect named Gl/ance. Rather than spelling, I would always say, "like a quick look." When he started sending out a quarterly newsletter, that's what we called it - a quick look.
re: Abel. Yep, I'm wrong. (And not a he, but no apology necesary.)
Must have been those signal drills at church camp as a child. Abel, Baal, Caleb, Deuteronomy, Elijah, Frankincense, Gomorrah, Hagar....
51: I don't necessarily disagree with the way you're arguing for it, I just think there's a case to be made here for the punctuation on the outside, too. That is, that it's not clearly wrong.
And don't apologize! Grammar pedantry for all.
And yes, singular nouns ending in "s" are supposed to get an apostrophe and additional "s" to denote possession.
Another stupid rule.
Radio alphabet is awesome, One of the the few things I still remember from getting my ham license. And I do tend to preemptively use words instead of letters for things like airline reservation codes. Airline folks, in my experience, do know the ITU alphabet; random other phone people always kind of annoy me when they start picking words to spell things out, and they aren't even good choices.
Before Frege, how did anyone ever punctuate properly?
i should say bravo then, another alphabet to learn
It's useful and practical to know.
Among my reperetoire of near useless skills is the ability to spell phonetically in German (Anton Berthe Caesar Dora Emil Friedrich Gustav Heinrich Ida Julius Konrad Ludwig Martha Nordpol Otto Paula Quelle Richard Siegfried Theodor Ulrich Viktor Wilhelm Xanthippe Ypsilon Zeppilin Ärger Ökonom Übermut) and French (Anatole Berthe Célestin Désiré Eugène François Gaston Henri Irma Joseph Kléber Louis Marcel Nicholas Oscar Pierre Québec Richard Suzanne Thérèse Ursule Victor William Xavier Yvonne Zoé)
And I didn't mean it to sound as snotty as I guess it sounded. Just a peeve of mine, is all.
Apo, your second set looks more readable to me. But maybe that's because of those years of beatings at the hands of English professors. I can still quote the first 30 lines of the Canterbury Tales in Middle English too. God help me if I ever forget those lines and end up in heaven with Dr. Redacted. She's probably got access to some big-ass rulers in heaven. And extra shaming, what with all the really virtuous people up there.
people always kind of annoy me when they start picking words to spell things out, and they aren't even good choices.
S-I-N. That's scent iota net. What do you mean, "What?"!
I can still quote the first 30 lines of the Canterbury Tales in Middle English too.
Fuck me, I think I can still do that, too. And yet I can't remember where I just left my cell phone.
I had a friend once who lived in apartment 10KE. He'd spell it for delivery guys "That's K as in Knife, and E as in Euphemism."
"Ms. Harris's recipe" sounds okay to me.
"Becks's post" does not.
I think it's because "Harris" ends in an unstressed syllable.
Emerson is being sarcastic in 60, but it's the truth.
Put me down for British/logical punctuation style, wrenae.
66: "Becks's post" sounds okay to me, but I realize that's not worth much. Without the second "s" you get a homophone for Beck's, which loses the disctinction between Mr. Beck and Mr. Becks. And I assume that distinction is more important than soundly vaguely like a bee.
Where it really gets fun is the plural possessive. Wouldn't it be "the Beckses' post"?
It's not Thomas, it's Taliban.
I dare somebody to say, "b (or l) as in Osama Bin Laden." ("Obama" doesn't work any more for that.)
This coud be fun:
b as in burka
I as in Iraq
A as in Afghanistan
b as in body count
A as in anti-Christ
W as in war on terror
t as in terrorism
m as in Muslim
The next flight I'm taking is HOZCJE.
"That's H as in Holy War, O as in osso bucco, Z as in zeiteist, C as in Christ Our Lord, Praise Be His Name, J as in jihad, and E as in evolution is a lie. Yes, you have provided me with excellent customer service today."
That's apostropher. A as in apostropher, p as in postropher, o as in ostropher, s as is stropher, t as in tropher, r as in ropher, o as in opher, p as in pher, h as is her, e as in er, r as in ribonucleic acid.
58: That rule helps to communicate meaning, it can otherwise by difficult to tell the difference between a singular and plural possessive.
I prefer the American punctuation rules because they make things look more elegant, but that's a losing battle on the internet, what with all the computer programmers who like things all logical.
The apostrophe, though, is simple. Use 's after s where you would pronounce another s (most of the time) and not where you wouldn't. Traditionally the rule is to use it all the time for singulars, but there are a few cases where you don't actually pronounce another s, so I see no reason to be overly pedantic about those.
Period after the quotation marks is house style, motherfuckers. Siddown and shut up.
(And no, I don't do it, but I know that it's house style and why. Read the archives, n00bies.)
Instead of going on a lovely vacation, we are stuck in Cleveland with a surprise blizzard. Wah.
I had a friend once who lived in apartment 10KE. He'd spell it for delivery guys "That's K as in Knife, and E as in Euphemism."
Living on Euclid Ave has really been fun.
I had a phone conversation with someone just yesterday who wanted to ask me if someone could still be reached at an address on Euclid Ave, and she clearly looked at the address written out and froze, totally at a loss for pronunciation. "Is he still at ten nine-hundred... uh, E-U-C-L-I-D, uh, avenue?" Poor thing. I wonder if it was a genuine not-knowing or just brain freeze.
A couple of the attorneys here have last names that people who call in have an enormous amount of difficulty with. They're both pretty straightforward German names, and not even particularly long, but the pronunciations aren't intuitively obvious to people who are unfamiliar with German spelling conventions, i.e., most people around here.
People often get the first letter of my name wrong because the first syllable with the wrong letter is a common word. This happened last when I voted (FOR OBAMA, YOU MONSTERS), and the person with the rolls went immediately to the wrong place as I was still spelling it out.
81: Yes, it is sad. Very sad! But at least we have plenty of bourbon.
Glad to hear you're seeing the glass as half-full. No full glasses of bourbon, though, lest you disturb the adage world order.
Use 's after s where you would pronounce another s (most of the time) and not where you wouldn't.
Okay, but when do you pronounce another "s"?
Does it have to do with whether the final syllable is stressed or unstressed? "Becks' post" vs. "Ms. Harris's recipe".
Okay, but when do you pronounce another "s"?
When a singular noun is pluralized.
Does it have to do with whether the final syllable is stressed or unstressed?
No. I would say (leaving writing out of it) "Becks's post"; wouldn't you? "Becks' post" seems like it would be routinely misinterpreted as "Beck's post."
I had a phone conversation with someone just yesterday who wanted to ask me if someone could still be reached at an address on Euclid Ave, and she clearly looked at the address written out and froze, totally at a loss for pronunciation. "Is he still at ten nine-hundred... uh, E-U-C-L-I-D, uh, avenue?"
"No, he lives at ten nine-hundred 13th Street."
"The secret ingredient is Dirt. That's D like in dirt, I like in dirt, R like in dirt and T like in Orange Pekoe."
--Churchill La Femme
Anal, Buttsex, Clitoris, Dong, Epididmus, Frenum, G-Spot, Hooters, I, Juggs, K, Labia, Masturbate, Nipple, Orgasm, Penis, Quim, R, Santorum, Tits, Urethrea, Vulva, XXX, Yoni, Zipless (or Zoophilia)
Suggestions?
I have a layover Sunday in the Warsaw airport. i do not think there will be bourbon.
I - Insertion
K - Kama Sutra
R - Rectum
W - Wang
You're really missing an opportunity not going with "Fisting".
I have a layover Sunday in the Warsaw airport. i do not think there will be bourbon.
Probably lots of vodka, though.
A for 'orses, B for lamb, C for yerself, D for ential, E for Adam, F for vescent, G for police, H for 'imself, I for Novello, J for oranges, K for ancis, L for leather M for sis, N for it, O for Christ's sake, I can't go on...
Popular usage in mid c20 Britain.
The whole point of a spelling alphabet is to improve clarity while maintaining as much brevity as possible. Words must be short and easily understood and easily and unambiguously associated with the letters they represent. By these criteria, the Germans, French, and especially the Italians seem to value style over function, see below. They also are name oriented based on the idea that proper names are less likely to be confused with un-spelled-out words in a message, though the German use of "Nordpol" and "Zeppelin" violate this rule. In general, using as few parts of speech as possible aids clarity, as is also reflected in a tendency to use proper nouns/names.
To see how confusing I could make it, and in line with the vulgar spelling alphabet suggestions above, I threw in my own take on vulgar spelling alphabet, (at bottom), with as many parts of speech as I could.
What happened was:
The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog.
Wikipedia's Spelling Alphabets lets us know this would be variously reported by:
NATO & Aviation personnel:
Tango Hotel Echo Quebec Uniform India Charlie Kilo Bravo Romeo Oscar Whisky November Foxtrot Oscar X-Ray Juliet Uniform Mike Papa Sierra Oscar Victor Echo Romeo Tango Hotel Echo Lima Alpha Zulu Yankee Delta Oscar Golf
British Forces in 1952:
Tare How Easy Queen Uncle Item Charlie King Baker Roger Oboe William Nan Fox Oboe X-Ray Jig Uncle Mike Peter Sugar Oboe Victor Easy Roger Tare How Easy Love Abel Zebra Yoke Dog Oboe George
Royal Air Force Chaps from 1942-43:
Tommy Harry Edward Queen Uncle In Charlie King Beer Robert Orange William Nuts Freddy Orange X-Ray Jug Uncle Mother Peter Suga Orange Vic Edward Robert Tommy Harry Edward Love Apple Zebra Yoke Dog Orange George
A New York Cop:
Tom Harry Edward Queen Union Ida Charlie King Boy Robert Ocean William Nora Frank Ocean X-Ray John Union Mary Peter Sam Ocean Victor Edward Robert Tom Harry Edward Lincoln Adam Zebra Young David Ocean George
A Frenchman:
Thérèse Henri Eugène Quintal Ursule Irma Célestin Kléber Berthe Raoul Oscar William Nicolas François Oscar Xavier Joseph Ursule Marcel Pierre Suzanne Oscar Victor Eugène Raoul Thérèse Henri Eugène Louis Anatole Zoé Yvonne Désiré Oscar Gaston
A German:
Theodor Heinrich Emil Quelle Ulrich Ida Caesar Kaufmann Berta Richard Otto Wilhelm Nordpol Friedrich Otto Xanthippe Julius Ulrich Martha Paula Samuel Otto Viktor Emil Richard Theodor Heinrich Emil Ludwig Anton Zeppelin Ypsilon Dora Otto Gustav
An Italian:
Torino Hotel Empoli Quarto Udine Imola Como Kursaal Bologna Roma Otranto Washington Napoli Firenze Otranto Ics I lunga Udine Milano Padova Savona Otranto Venezia Empoli Roma Torino Hotel Empoli Livorno Ancona Zara York Domodossola Otranto Genova
A pervert:
the hot eating queer usually is cum kissing
bondage reluctant orgy was nasty fuck orgy
xrated jimmy usually manipulates pussy sex
orgy vagina eating reluctant
the hot eating lick as zen
yummy dom orgy guy/girl
My husband spent all fucking morning doing that.
Writing the post, I meant. Not having a yummy dom orgy.
77. The Plain Dealer reports this important news:
A Starbucks shop on the 1400 block of Euclid in Cleveland closed at 4 p.m., seven hours earlier than usual.
The airport is closed; the orchestra has canceled. But when *$ closes, that's a storm.
101: Yeah, man. That's crazy. SEVEN HOURS EARLY? Damn.
102: I think he actually wrote software to do the translations for him.
though the German use of "Nordpol" and "Zeppelin" violate this rule.
Interesting story behind that. According to Wikipedia...
The German alphabet was changed several times during the 20th century, in some cases for political reasons: In 1934, supposedly "Jewish" names were replaced. Thus, David, Jakob, Nathan, Samuel and Zacharias became Dora, Jot, Nordpol, Siegfried and Zeppelin.
Just as common as "Tittle". Or is that Tuttle?
I wonder about Ypsilon.
Tittle reminds me…
When I read Swallows & Amazons I was taken aback (nice metaphor there) by a character—a girl—named Tittie. A bit pervie there Ransome.
A is for Axe that cutteth the pine,
B for the jolly Boys never behind,
C for the Cutting we early begin,
and D for the Danger we oft-times are in.
...And it's hi-doody, ho-doody, hi-doody down,
Give a shantyboy whiskey and his head will go round.
For real, I never even knew there was a cultural norm to be either upheld or violated. I just make shit up as I go along.
K is the Keen edge on our axes we keep,
And L for the Lice that keep us from sleep.
Even earlier British one: Ack Beer Charlie Don Edward Freddy George Harry Ink Johnnie King London Monkey Nuts Orange Pip Queen Robert Sugar Toc Uncle Vic William X-ray Yorker Zebra.
Hence "ack-ack" - AA or anti-aircraft fire. Toc H, the Talbot House charity movement. And the army still talks about Don Ten - D10 cable.
110. Not to mention times, e.g. 10 o'clock ack-emma or pip-emma (Emma, not Edward, was standard usage in WWII).
"Jot"? A common name?
The German word for the letter "J", actually. It's distinguishable from other letters all by itself. Ditto for "Ypsilon" and the letter "Y". IME people today say "Julius" for J.