Re: Success

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Does Delong not cite his sources? I don't see any kind of link.


Posted by: Chopper | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 8:29 AM
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Scholarly misconduct! Fire Delong!

[/joke]


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 8:31 AM
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I am reminded of this aper├žu from DeLong from a while back:

Perhaps the scariest thing is that I experience no cognitive dissonance as I regard somebody who calls herself "LizardBreath" as a credible, authoritative source


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 8:31 AM
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It's two different comments, but it's weird that Delong doesn't give credit to LB.

What I want to know is whether Delong will actually take any action.


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 8:34 AM
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Will was kicking around the idea in comments to the other thread that Yoo hasn't done anything against legal ethics.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 8:35 AM
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5: Really? There was a thread recently on John Yoo and ethics?


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 8:36 AM
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Hmph. LB sails in and gets the attention after we've said thousands of words. In doing so he's agreeing with Eric, who claimed that ignorant people on comment threads are not going to be able to decide this question. Hmph.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 8:36 AM
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6: That's the mild way to put it.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 8:37 AM
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I mentioned in the other thread that I'd like to hear from Napi why he thinks UC has only one shot at Yoo.

I've also noticed that a lot of Boalt Hall students have called for Yoo's resignation, but we need people who can't be dismissed as hot-headed young'ns to take action.


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 8:40 AM
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7: Face it, the girl's got skilz. She puts together her arguments, and things happen.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 8:42 AM
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She needs a blog of her own, pronto.


Posted by: NCProsecutor | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 8:48 AM
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Will was kicking around the idea in comments to the other thread that Yoo hasn't done anything against legal ethics.

I suspect that he's effectively right. It would be interesting to see what Leederman at Balkinization says about it. He seems to very much hate the Yoo memos, but he's also more likely to be exposed to the sorts of risks associated with Yoo here: law professor possibly being held to account for opinions offered while in high government office. I don't see those folks taking on that risk.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 8:48 AM
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Has anyone stress-tested the argument based on the assertion of different standards for client memos and court filings? The foregoing question should not be taken as an endorsement of any position with respect thereto.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 8:52 AM
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I thought about bringing it up, but worried that this would be taken as evidence that I didn't understand that torture was bad.

But yeah, what Flippanter said: does anything professional-ethics wise turn on the fact that Yoo didn't present this as an argument to the court (and so wasn't deceiving a court?) Is there some idea of a counterfactual court that's suppose to govern client memos?


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 9:02 AM
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There are different rules applicable based on whether or not a tribunal (i.e., a court or agency) is involved, but I don't think they're so different that LB's argument wouldn't work. I think the governing rule would be District of Columbia Rule 2.1, which governs a lawyer acting as an advisor rather than as an advocate:

In representing a client, a lawyer shall exercise independent professional judgment and render candid advice. In rendering advice, a lawyer may refer not only to law but to other considerations such as moral, economic, social, and political factors, that may be relevant to the client's situation.

The link is to the version of the DC Rules that would have applied when Yoo was making his decision (they've since been amended, but this one wasn't changed).


Posted by: widget | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 9:11 AM
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Has anyone stress-tested the argument based on the assertion of different standards for client memos and court filings?

One thing to keep in mind is that the AG's "client" is not the president of the United States, nor is it rogue government officials who want to torture people. They hire their own lawyers.

The AG's duty is to the Constitution and people of the United States, as quaint as that may sound in these debased latter days.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 9:14 AM
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The AG's duty is to the Constitution and people of the United States, as quaint as that may sound in these debased latter days.

It does sound quaint, but in a good way. I didn't mean to suggest that the AG or the OLC is properly a captive pettifogger to the Court of St. George.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 9:31 AM
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DeLong's commenters are special. I wonder if they all happen to be commenters at Diner's Journal in their spare time


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 9:53 AM
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You know, I spotted this morning that DeLong had included the Yoo discussions on his list of links for the day, but wasn't sure what to do about it. Showing up in the Pitchfork thread and announcing, "Brad's watching, guys!" seemed awfully lame.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 9:59 AM
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That LB was persuasive in an argument in not particularly notable. That DeLong chose to quote verbatim without cite is shady. that Delong ready Unfogged is weird.

Had my own "six degrees of seperation" yesterday involving Juan Cole, Mudville Gazette (a milblogger, egads) and now Instapundit. Link here
http://www.mudvillegazette.com/archives/029914.html

Now, if only blog comments could translate into either money or power, that would be interesting.


Posted by: Tassled Loafered Leech | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 9:59 AM
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Not as lame as the "Is a hammer a lever?" discussion, but lame.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 10:00 AM
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That's "that Delong reads Unfogged..." More coffee, please.


Posted by: Tassled Loafered Leech | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 10:01 AM
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Not as lame as the "Is a hammer a lever?" discussion, but lame.

We're plumbing new depths, JRoth, Work with us.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 10:01 AM
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One poorly written memo is grounds to fire someone? Is that really what you want to rest your hat on? Assuming that it is a Rule 11 sanctionable memo due to not citing adverse authority?

Perhaps we should just make it illegal for someone to be a law professor unless they are perfect.

I believe that it is much better to simply rest on the argument that we don't want torture advocates at the school.

Or focus on the issue that he knew crimes were about to be commited and he was hiding info.

How about a rule that we cannot have lawyers like Jacques Verges or John Yoo teaching our students?


Posted by: Will | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 10:01 AM
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20: DeLong has always read unfogged. Didn't he show up at a meetup once?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 10:02 AM
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DeLong has always read unfogged. Didn't he show up at a meetup once?

Yes. No.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 10:03 AM
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How about a rule that we cannot have lawyers like Jacques Verges or John Yoo teaching our students?

I see no reason that this sentence, verbatim, can't be written into the faculty code of conduct at every law school in the land.

(Am I banned, Ogged? Not for this bit here but for making the blog look bad in front of DeLong?)


Posted by: Ari | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 10:05 AM
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24: Why not throw the kitchen sink at him?


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 10:07 AM
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28: Or catapult it at him. We need all the mechanical advantage we can get.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 10:15 AM
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A catapult is a kind of lever, right?


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 10:23 AM
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Trebuchet!


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 10:26 AM
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Next:Convincing DeLong into advocating firing Mankiw from Harvard on the same intellectual malpractice grounds, i.e., Laugher macroeconomics and other supply-side prevarications.

At least the econblog commenters consider Mankiw a disingenuous hack.

OTOH

I'm not going to mention any names, because telling the truth about right wing economists brings you, no joke, death threats and slander. No group of people who are otherwise respectable members of the academic sphere have so many unsavory friends as right wing economists. ...SN

Knew I could find a way to link to the latest & greatest wisdom from Newberry


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 10:36 AM
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Trebuchet.


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 10:36 AM
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Didn't he show up at a meetup once?

Didn't he decline to approach "the ogged" when given the opportunity?


Posted by: NickS | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 10:38 AM
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He has even commented here once or twice.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 11:01 AM
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As a hedgehog.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 11:05 AM
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For a right-winger DeLong is remarkably receptive to non-right-wing points of view, and for an economist he has a very wide range of interests.

The hammer discussion has been very fruitful. It has led me to propose a pre-pile-driver level of civilization so brutish that when the pile driver finally was invented, it seemed like an elegant and ingenious technology.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 11:06 AM
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For a right-winger DeLong is remarkably receptive to non-right-wing points of view

Totally, TOTALLY, unfair. If DeLong is a right-winger, then so am I, and a lot of others around here as well.

If maintaining a pragmatic respect for the ability of capital accumulation, technological innovation, and the profit motive to produce material benefits is enough to qualify someone as right wing, then it's going to be pretty lonely on the left.


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 11:24 AM
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Knecht and most people here are right-wingers.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 11:25 AM
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33.---Oh, Jesus.

The inquest heard that several members of the Oxford Stunt Factory had become concerned about the safety of the trebuchet.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 11:28 AM
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You must have a very lonely commune, Emerson.


Posted by: Tassled Loafered Leech | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 11:28 AM
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Interesting to imagine why Professor DeLong originally chose the handle "John Emerson".


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 11:28 AM
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Probably half the Democratic Party is to the left of DeLong and Krugman. That's only 10-15% of the US population (granted that there are a lot of Republicans, Independents, and non-voters), but still tens of millions of people.

These are the DFHs ignored by rightwingers like Krugman, DeLong, and most people here.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 11:32 AM
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The inquest heard that several members of the Oxford Stunt Factory, who were dismissed as the complete wusses they are, according to Chester Lark-Writhington, factory spokesbro, had become concerned about the safety of the trebuchet.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 11:33 AM
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33, 40: Could have been killed crossing the street or falling down in his bathtub. Trebuchets don't kill people, people kill people. You'll only take away my trebuchet when you pry it from my cold dead fingers.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 11:36 AM
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45: But don't you think it is irresponsible of the trebuchet manufacturers to produce their product without child safety locks?

Also, while I can see that reponsible citizens might want to keep a catapult or onager for hunting or self-defense, there is simply no reason why a law-abiding person needs an unregistered trebuchet.


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 11:49 AM
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The other Onager:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onager


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 11:51 AM
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These are the DFHs ignored by rightwingers like Krugman, DeLong, and most people here.

That's too cheery an outlook, Emerson. "Attempt to ignore," I think.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 11:52 AM
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John, have you been sniffing glue again? You know how that makes you cranky and trollish.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 11:52 AM
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46: I know some people with an enormous trebuchet, and they use it for perfectly sane and reasonable purposes, like flinging cars, pianos and propane tanks large distances across the desert.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 11:55 AM
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Left and right wing are relative terms. Not too useful to define them relative to Emerson's lonely outpost in Lake Wobegon.

I'm listening to a Republican Congressman describe how any expansion of wilderness lands or national parks is a gift to illegal immigrant drug dealers. See, that's right wing.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 11:58 AM
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How many people does it take to own an enormous trebuchet? Does one need to form a consortium? Or are they just renting?


Posted by: Ari | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 11:59 AM
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PGD, you seem to be spending a great deal of time in front of C-Span (or some such thing). Surely this can't be good for your health.


Posted by: Ari | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 12:00 PM
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50, 52: Why am I assuming it is some kind of Burning Man thing?


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 12:00 PM
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By European standards DeLong and Krugman are centrist, maybe center-right. Not really wingers, I suppose. Hyperbole is sometimes used for emphasis.

It really annoyed me when people like DeLong and Yglesias started talking about themselves as "The Left". The Left still exists. Unsuccessful for decades, but not non-existent. Not uninhabited real estate free for the taking.

DeLong has made obnoxious rightwing attacks on Barbara Ehrenreich and Gunter Grass, for two. There were a couple of others whose names I've forgotten.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 12:03 PM
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54: you aren't assuming, oud, you are inferring, probably by process of elimination.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 12:03 PM
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A safe assumption, I think, based on the desert locale in which it was deployed.


Posted by: Ari | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 12:03 PM
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57 to 54, though Rob is right.


Posted by: Ari | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 12:04 PM
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I do have a broader historical and geographical context than most hip aspirational Americans.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 12:04 PM
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Surely this can't be good for your health.

So true.

Now a Democratic Congressman is helpfully explaining that the legislation under discussion is actually completely toothless and wouldn't do anything to expand natural areas or hassle oil companies in any way.

Maybe Emerson is correct and left and right wing should be absolute categorizations.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 12:05 PM
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By Soviet standards, Delong and Krugman are reactionaries.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 12:05 PM
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I know some people with an enormous trebuchet, and they use it for perfectly sane and reasonable purposes, like flinging cars, pianos and propane tanks large distances across the desert.

But if they only intent on using it for lawful purposes, why do they resist background checks, licensing, and registration? And why not reasonable restrictions on fully automatic trebuchets or "cop killer" teflon-coated boulders? Show me a person who doesn't want his trebuchet registered, and I'll show you a person who shouldn't own a trebuchet.


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 12:05 PM
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OT: Rob, I'll be in Cleveland for many weeks this coming summer. Is it still the glimmering city of my misspent youth? And do you have some sort of guidebook you offer to visitors?


Posted by: Ari | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 12:06 PM
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How many people does it take to own an enormous trebuchet? Does one need to form a consortium? Or are they just renting?

If Unfogged is considering communal ownership of a trebuchet, count me in!

Then, I vote we launch turduckens from our trebuchet.


Posted by: Will | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 12:06 PM
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By Mongol Empire standards, Delong is a dirty hippy.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 12:06 PM
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Ari, I was just talking with an older student, who said that compared to the cleveland he grew up 20 years ago, the current city is a sad shadow.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 12:09 PM
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We certainly need some extra-American framework for "left" and "right". And some broader framework than people we meet socially. America's far left (Feingold or Wellstone) is the European center, more or less.

We do live in a near-fascist country, guys. You've gotten too used to it.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 12:10 PM
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Cleveland is like Pittsburgh, but with a lot less cool stuff.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 12:11 PM
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Where are you staying, Ari? Are you going to be working at any particular local university?


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 12:12 PM
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What I usually say to people is that the (national-level) Democratic party includes the center, right, and left in a sane country. The Republicans are off somewhere else that is actually not on the standard left/right spectrum. They still get a lot of mileage from people who think they are conservatives.

This is all very visible and obvious when you follow stuff closely.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 12:12 PM
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(Pittsburgh is the glimmering city of my own misspent youth.) Snarkout and I live in Cleveland Heights, and I work at Case.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 12:14 PM
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John and PGD are right, of course, about the dismal state of american politics, but still...

When you talk to someone, and you use a relative term, it is polite to use the context that will come most naturally to your audience. Calling Delong a rightist because he is in your preferred context without any further explanation, is impolite, no matter how genuinely preferrable your preferred context is.

I say to make an observation about language, not to complain that you are being rude, John. Rudeness is part of the appeal of this place.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 12:18 PM
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I'm being really pedantic today.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 12:19 PM
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I vote we launch turduckens from our trebuchet.

Tofurkeys, will. Please.

As for Cleveland, CA's institution is quite nearby as well.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 12:23 PM
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You are apparently unaware of my opinion of discursive charity. I give nothing at all to discursive beggars and pay no heed to my audience's misconceptions except when I deliberation flout them.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 12:24 PM
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37

"For a right-winger DeLong is remarkably receptive to non-right-wing points of view, and for an economist he has a very wide range of interests."

55

"DeLong has made obnoxious rightwing attacks on Barbara Ehrenreich and Gunter Grass, for two. There were a couple of others whose names I've forgotten."

So which is it? Is DeLong unusally tolerant of people to his left or not?


Posted by: James B. Shearer | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 12:25 PM
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This is my arquebus. There are many like it, but this one is mine.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 12:25 PM
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In order:

1) A shadow of a shadow. This sounds...ephemeral.
2) I'll be there visiting family.
3) I'll be staying in Cleveland Heights (I think). But it could be University Heights (I'm not sure). It's not Shaker; I know that.
4) Who is CA?

I may have transposed 2 and 3. Sorry.


Posted by: Ari | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 12:27 PM
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oudemia, have you actually eaten tofurkey? It sounds gross to me. I just think it would be better to avoid meat rather than try to make fake meat, but I'm not a vegetarian.


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 12:28 PM
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Tofurkey, the peppery version, is yummy. BG.


Posted by: Ari | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 12:29 PM
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We will eat the Tofurkeys and launch the turduckens.


Posted by: Will | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 12:29 PM
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Why am I assuming it is some kind of Burning Man thing?

I wouldn't necessarily go that way. I met a guy who, while showing me a bit of his acreage, told me the best thing about owning a chunk of land in the boondocks was that he could drag old cars and stuff out in the back 40 and lob rocks at them with his catapult until that got boring, at which point he could break out his m60s or m-2 and chew them up for as long as he could afford the ammuntion --- and nobody would ever complain.

Interesting guy.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 12:30 PM
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Not to Grass and Ehrenreich, but to those who comment on his site, including me. My point of comparison is the average economist winger, who makes DeLong look perfectly wonderful in every respect.

Your steel trap logic betrays you at times, James B.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 12:30 PM
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79: I have. It's all right. It's sometimes nice to have a chewy thing to smoosh around with gravy and mashed potatoes at Thanksgiving. Some fake meats -- in the Buddhist fake meat tradition, say -- are pretty fun. We have a poorly translated cookbook of such things and my favorite recipe is for pork brains (carefully sculpted from rice gluten).


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 12:30 PM
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some of the buddhist fake-meat stuff is amazing when done well.

I always thought it was strange to bother trying to fake something like that, but some of it's really good. Some isn't.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 12:33 PM
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80: Oh yes. The peppery faux lunch meat is really yummy. I was thinking of the big fake roast ones, which we will too launch from our trebuchet, will!!!

It's Sifu. And the desert. Can't Iinfer Burning Man?


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 12:33 PM
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I vote we launch turduckens from our trebuchet.

What the hell. I say we go all out.


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 12:34 PM
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Krugman is clearly to the left of Delong, BTW.

I would say Krugman would be slightly left of center even in a European country.

There are a number of vocal, respected economists who are to the left of Krugman. E.g. Joe Stiglitz.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 12:35 PM
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It's Sifu. And the desert. Can't Iinfer Burning Man?

fair enough.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 12:36 PM
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Stiglitz recently. Once he turned, people at DeLong started talking about him as though he were stupid.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 12:36 PM
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What the hell. I say we go all out.

If we're going all out, we should look to best this


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 12:39 PM
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86: But who is CA?


Posted by: Ari | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 12:44 PM
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DeLong has always read [U]nfogged.

Just to emphasize this, I'm pretty sure I first heard of Unfogged when DeLong linked to a couple of things FL had written. This would have been late 2004, I guess. If anyone wants to find the thread where Becks listed the first comment (for many of us) and how many we'd left, that'd be helpful.


Posted by: washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 12:45 PM
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92: Oops. mr. oudemia -- which is why I am there when I am not here in NYC.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 12:46 PM
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1. of course this was at Burning Man.

2. This is the trebuchet in question.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 12:47 PM
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I suggest that we launch oudemia from the trebucket into some body of water. If it works out well without serious injury, I will go second.


Posted by: Will | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 12:49 PM
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The glut of economics discussion lately makes me long for the days of "Hey, you got sexism in my racism."


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 12:53 PM
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96: If we build either of the linked trebuchets, 4-5 unfoggers can go first in a mid-sized sedan. Just a thought.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 12:53 PM
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4-5 unfoggers can go first in a mid-sized sedan

Don't open the floor to nominations, that could get ugly really quickly.


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 12:55 PM
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96: To see if she is a witch?


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 12:55 PM
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95: You aren't responsible for that commercial, are you? Because it was very annoying. Nice trebuchet, though.

98: Which 4-5? I sense a thousand-comment thread.


Posted by: Ari | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 12:56 PM
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Pwned by KR. Alas.


Posted by: Ari | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 12:56 PM
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Call me greedy, but I was expecting the car to go 100 feet or more.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 12:57 PM
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Special effects simulations are driving meatspace trebuchets out of business.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 12:58 PM
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94: Oh. Well, I'll be there for all of July. In all of my pro-torture glory.


Posted by: Ari | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 12:58 PM
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103 see 91. I agree.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 12:58 PM
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101.1: no.

103.1: yeah it actually didn't work right in the commercial. They fixed it later.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 12:59 PM
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I bet we could get more distance out of a rail gun. We could burn dirty, dirty coal to generate the electricity, too.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 12:59 PM
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You know you are getting old when:

The Dali museum that you were about to recommend as a place to go in Cleveland has just celebrated its 25th year anniversary in its new location (St. Petersburg, Florida).


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 1:00 PM
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91 was very satisfying. If they'd sent it less high it would have gone farther, but the height was awesome.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 1:02 PM
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105: Why for? Doing what? Where?

I need this information to prepare the re-education camp/Elaine Scarry seminar.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 1:03 PM
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I suggest that we launch oudemia from the trebucket into some body of water.

A HS friend and I once earnestly contemplated launching ourselves into the pond with one of these. We chickened out, though.

Had we gone through with it, it still would have been far from the stupidest thing we did during that period of my life. Sometimes I wonder how I lived to adulthood.


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 1:03 PM
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Eh, I commented at DeLong's that he should provide a cite to LB *before* I checked this thread.

I stand convicted of reading other blogs first. Sometimes.

Btw, there are reasons to criticize Grass and Ehrenreich that have nothing to do with being to their right. One of the cool things about being a liberal is that you get to criticize everybody. Yet another reason I couldn't be a conservative, let alone a Bushnik.


Posted by: Anderson | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 1:04 PM
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On our farm, I was the hay bale thrower.


Posted by: Will | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 1:06 PM
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One of the cool things about being a liberal is that you get to criticize everybody.

That, and the fact that we can enjoy premarital sex without guilt or hypocrisy.


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 1:07 PM
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111 see 78.


Posted by: Ari | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 1:07 PM
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114: There's a job to hate after 10 hours.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 1:08 PM
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Hmm, what do I like to do on the east side? The Cave du Vin on Coventry is nice on weeknights (weekends it fills with law students trying to impress each other on dates). Gelato at Le Gelateria in Cedar-Fairmount. Movies at the Cinematheque at the CIA. Drinking coffee or wine at an outdoor table in Little Italy. Rock shows rarely too crowded at the Grog Shop!

Farther afield from Cleveland Heights, there are some good restaurants in Ohio City and Tremont. I am fond of the Flying Fig. Excellent Indian food in Parma Heights. The West Side Market, but that's hardly going to be news to you.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 1:13 PM
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There's a job to hate after 10 hours.

Word. Not least because it has the highest ratio of physical exertion to likelihood of parlaying your job into a heterosexual sexual encounter of any occupation in the modern economy, with the possible exception of some underground mining and remote oilfeed jobs.


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 1:13 PM
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Mostly what I actually do in Cleveland Heights is stay home, read stuff, cook stuff, play cards, and watch tv on the computer.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 1:15 PM
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That Indian restaurant in Parma Heights is sooooo good (if we're thinking of the same place).


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 1:16 PM
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120: I was just the same, 20 miles away. (If cards=cribbage.)


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 1:17 PM
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DeLong called Grass a crypto-fascist. I believe that he eventually backed down under enormous pressure.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 1:18 PM
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For centrists like myself who are noticeably to the left of the Democrats on most of the big issues, it's easy to forget the wide ideological range that is, for all practical purposes, unrepresented in American politics.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 1:20 PM
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From 47:

sometimes known as the Asian Wild Ass.
I'm very disappointed in you people.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 1:24 PM
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119: I don't know. The odds of heterosexual encounters on farms don't see that bad at all.

Oh, wait. With humans? Yeah, could be a problem.


Posted by: Cyrus | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 1:28 PM
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(If cards=cribbage.)

It generally does, yes.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 1:30 PM
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Btw, there are reasons to criticize Grass and Ehrenreich that have nothing to do with being to their right.

True enough, but Emerson's right that DeLong's critique of Ehrenreich was distinctly from the right - he may as well have called her a Commie pinko.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 1:33 PM
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The farmer's daughter jokes aren't realistic? Damn.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 1:34 PM
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113

"... One of the cool things about being a liberal is that you get to criticize everybody. Yet another reason I couldn't be a conservative, ..."

In what way are liberals freer to criticize people than conservatives?


Posted by: James B. Shearer | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 1:38 PM
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shivbunny used to pitch hay bales as a younger man. It sucks, being hard work and itchy, but he took some joy in the struggles of his cousins' city boyfriends, who would try to come out and help trying to be manly and usually end up discovering that being able to lift weights in the gym didn't mean much on the farm.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 1:42 PM
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In what way are liberals freer to criticize people than conservatives?

JBS, you like citations. How about some nice, juicy Bush criticisms from conservatives ca. 2003?

I'm sure The Corner would have plenty to choose from.

That said, I actually don't think liberals are especially more likely to critique their own on principle; I just think that they're less prone to blind hero worship.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 1:46 PM
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131: Sure, but then shiv would come to the city, and be totally unable to, um.... Huh. Use a fork maybe?


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 1:46 PM
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133: If we stick to stereotypes, I'd say using chopsticks.

Actual answer: merge in traffic


Posted by: Po-Mo Polymath | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 1:48 PM
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I'm going to be very disappointed if shivbunny comes to an Unfogged meet and is all skinny and Ogged-like.

Cala has promoted the image of shivbunny as a badass, tough, explosives guy.


Posted by: Will | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 1:50 PM
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134 is nice.


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 1:50 PM
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Will, Cala put up some wedding photos in the pool; there's a pictre of shivbunny up.


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 1:55 PM
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137: I didn't notice shiv; I was too busy trying to decide which calasis I would hit on if I ever ran into her around town.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 1:56 PM
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That assumes the flickr pool isn't a running joke, Cala, but I'm on to you lot.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 1:56 PM
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erm, BG, I mean.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 1:57 PM
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118: Cleveland food is not going to be too impressive to someone from NorCal. But at the top end Johnny's is very good in a 50s fine dining time warp kind of way (and I don't mean that disparagingly at all, it's a superb restaurant):

http://www.johnnyscleveland.com/

So is Lola downtown, which has a celebrity chef who won the Iron Chef America

http://www.lolabistro.com/

Cleveland gets good bands on their way from Detroit to NYC, the Beachland Ballroom is a good place to look as is the Grog Shop.

The Cinematheque at Case is one of the best repretory movie places in the whole country, if you discount the uncomfortable chairs and 1970s university lecture room vibe.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 2:00 PM
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I didn't notice shiv; I was too busy trying to decide which calasis I would hit on if I ever ran into her around town.

I did the same thing.


Posted by: Will | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 2:00 PM
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134 is awesome. 138 is a tough call. They're all interchangeably cute. (I think the blonde is the only one currently running around Pittsburgh.)


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 2:01 PM
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Oh, and in the summer definitely head downtown to see the Indians, and out of town to Cedar Point if you're attracted by the idea of a whole bunch of the world's best roller coasters all in one place.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 2:01 PM
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141: Yes, I used to live in Berkeley and am consistently let down by Cleveland food. The places I mentioned meet my own demanding standards, though. (Not Momocho, by the way -- we went there again recently and it was entirely blah.)

Beachland is indeed very good but obviously less convenient to Cleveland Heights than the extremely handy Grog Shop.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 2:07 PM
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I just reviewed the wedding pictures. Darn good looking wedding party.

Shiv has the look of someone who you want on your side., as do Charlie's bridemaids.....


Posted by: Will | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 2:07 PM
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Thanks for all the Cleveland tips. It sounds remarkably similar to the Cleveland I once knew, though the high-end food and kind of ethnic quisine seem to have changed. Also, I grew up loving the Indians but now can't support them. Chief Wahoo really is a beyond-the-Pale caricature of a leering caricature.


Posted by: Ari | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 2:09 PM
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143: Actually, I need to know which one is most open to being hit on by a married guy - it's hard to tell from the photos.

I believe Anthony Bourdain went to Cleveland and raved about the food.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 2:10 PM
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145: I don't recall the Grog Shop being there when I was growing up, though my extra-cool nephew goes there all the time. I used to travel to the West Side for shows, including, one time, seeing The Replacements open for X (best show ever). Oh, I also used to go to Oberlin to see bands that were on college tours.


Posted by: Ari | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 2:11 PM
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147: Have you seen the animation of Chief Wahoo morphing into Wahu, the East-Indian?

Also: "beyond-the-Pale." Is that your own particular affectation, or do other historians use it? Perhaps solidarity for your ancestors on the Auld Sod?


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 2:12 PM
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Rats. I was going to suggest a meet-up, but I should have a newborn in July, so won't be able to make it (not that y'all can't do one without me, of course. But I won't advocate for it).

I know! Meetup in Pittsburgh - y'all can road trip down. See what Cleveland is a mere shadow of.

Where the hell is Ned?


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 2:14 PM
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147.1: No. But I'd like to.

147.2: That's just how I roll. But only today. I like to change things up.


Posted by: Ari | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 2:15 PM
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Quisine? Is that food for Quislings, Ari? Hmm?


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 2:15 PM
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151: I used to dream of landing in Pittsburgh. No lie. But now that I'm in NorCal, not so much with the dreams of the Midwest. Though I do often fantasize about Pittsburgh's housing stock and home prices.


Posted by: Ari | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 2:17 PM
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152.1 Rajah Wahu


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 2:18 PM
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Another Unfogged baby? One has to wonder how commenting here could possibly lead to fecundity, yet, here we are, surrounded by babies.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 2:18 PM
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156: "Honey, will you please stop commenting at Unfogged, and come impregnate me!"


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 2:18 PM
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comment, comment, impregnate, comment


Posted by: felix | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 2:19 PM
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153: Seriously, I got less than an hour of sleep last night. And if that's what I typed -- oh look, it is -- I really do request just a teeny bit of slack today. Which isn't to say that I can spell, or form grammatically or syntactically correct sentences, even on my best days. Unless I really try, that is, for publication and whatnot. I suppose I should begin to use the preview feature. But I like myself just the way I am.


Posted by: Ari | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 2:20 PM
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158: For between three and seven minutes.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 2:22 PM
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spelling is a tool of teh patriarchy, Ari, don't let them get you down.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 2:22 PM
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155 is excellent. Thanks. And thanks, soup, for the affirmation.


Posted by: Ari | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 2:24 PM
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I thought you academic types would find this rant interesting

http://larvalsubjects.wordpress.com/2008/04/09/molar-machines-and-the-psychology-of-bureaucrats-an-incoherent-rant/


Posted by: Tassled Loafered Leech | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 2:25 PM
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141.5 It does look like the Agora is still a going concern in Cleveland, so not everything is gone that I knew. No idea what transformations it may have undergone and what it books these days though.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 2:30 PM
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"One of the cool things about being a liberal is that you get to criticize everybody."

That, and the fact that we can enjoy premarital sex without guilt or hypocrisy.

Sigh. I really should have made the shift leftwards much sooner.

On a separate note, I would just like to remind everyone that my ex is a nasty, stinking lump of shit.


Posted by: Di | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 2:32 PM
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my ex is a nasty, stinking lump of shit.

redundant


Posted by: Tassled Loafered Leech | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 2:33 PM
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I really should have made the shift leftwards much sooner.

It's never too late to catch up on guilt & hypocrisy free sex, Di.

I would just like to remind everyone that my ex is a nasty, stinking lump of shit.

new rollover text.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 2:34 PM
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165: and ugly naked!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 2:35 PM
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Is this the ugly naked guy?


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 2:36 PM
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132

"JBS, you like citations. How about some nice, juicy Bush criticisms from conservatives ca. 2003?"

Here is Steve Sailer 1/11/2004. A quote:

"This is why Bush doesn't want to fire anybody: He is reluctant to let anybody go who has been intimately exposed to his vacuity. He can count on his current minions to keep up the charade. But, if he fires them, they might, like O'Neill, reveal to the world what a zero the President is."


Posted by: James B. Shearer | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 2:40 PM
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Di, you have been remiss in directing us to UNG's blog so that we can see for ourselves what a nasty, stinking lump of shit he is. You can do it super discreetly by finding an improbable phrase on his site, then posting it here in google-proof form. Then we can all google the phrase and be directed to his blog. All UNG will see is a flurry of google referals for an unusual search string.

C'mon, lass, be a sport


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 2:49 PM
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Di, I'm still mad at your friends that invited him and your daughter over for Xmas. I am still mad!


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 2:50 PM
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One of the cool things about being a liberal is that you get to criticize everybody.

That, and the fact that we can enjoy premarital sex without guilt or hypocrisy.

No. Liberals are acutely, painfully guilty that their premarital sex is not being enjoyed as much by either a) the other party or b) people who are not getting as much.

However, if it came to any kind of sexual redistribution that would affect their own bumpin', they would of course demur; thus hypocrisy.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 2:55 PM
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No. Liberals are acutely, painfully guilty that their premarital sex is not being enjoyed as much by either a) the other party or b) people who are not getting as much.

Damn. No wonder there are so few `Liberals'.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 2:56 PM
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May those we hate for the misery they have brought into the world die alone, hated and shunned by every living thing. Let them understand that their solitude is no accident, but the wish of all those around them.

No, that doesn't really work. There's just not that much of a tradition of flowery curses in English that I know of-- there's cussing at someone, but you can't convey considered hate by cussing. There's good stuff in the old testament, in French, and in Slavic languages, but I don't know that any of this goes into English all that well.

Baudelaire's Cain and Abel is nice.

So is Lonnie Johnson's cheerful recording of "Uncle Ned", starts this way:

I'll be glad when you dead, ol' man Ned.
I'll be glad when you dead, ol' man Ned.
Yeas, when you dead, you'll stop hangin' your britches on my bed.
I'll be glad when you dead, ol' man Ned.

I'll be glad when you dead, you good for nothin' hound.
I'll be glad when you dead, you good for nothin' hound.
Yeas, when they put you 'leven feet under the ground, I an' your wife will start messin' around.
I'll be glad when you dead, you good for nothin' hound.


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 3:01 PM
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The paleos have ditched Bush. Ron Paul got something like 10% in the Republican primaries. Various other conservatives have grumbled, but they stayed on board.

Even the neocons don't like Bush by now, because the buck has to stop somewhere and they don't want it to be with them.

Bush wasn't exactly a failure. He just succeeded in a fraudulent, vicious, embarrassing way, and for the moment no one wants to be seen next to him.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 3:02 PM
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175: re cussing:

May your cock turn blue and fester,
May corns adorn your feet,
May crabs the size of horseflies,
Sit on your balls and eat.

... forgotten verse

And when you're old and feeble,
A syphalictic wreck,
May your spine drop through you asshole,
And break your fucking neck.

... probably conveys considered hate.


Posted by: forgotten source | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 3:08 PM
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172: Why, thank you, oudemia. I genuinely appreciate this!

171: But then I would endure the humiliation of, "Dear God, woman, what on earth possessed you to marry that?!" Perhaps I will someday subtly drop hints. Indeed, perhaps I already have...


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 3:31 PM
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132

And here is Pat Buchanan 10/20/2003. Some quotes:

"While understandable, this does not solve his problem, which is this: his present policy is unsustainable. Public support is declining, congressional support is declining, and his poll ratings are declining. If the president intends to fight this war to victory, he must begin to speak and act like a war leader, demanding sacrifices of us all, telling us how and when we can look forward to a triumphal end to the conflict. This President Bush has conspicuously failed to do."

and

"The president's problem in Iraq is the result of an unnecessary war. But it is our problem now. Solution: admit the mistake, turn around, get out with all deliberate speed. We liberated Iraq from Saddam, but the future of Iraq is for them to decide, not us. "


Posted by: James B. Shearer | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 3:32 PM
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132

Christopher Layne 11/6/2003

The administration's U-turn decision to ask for United Nations help in Iraq, and President George W. Bush's request that Congress appropriate $87 billion to fund the occupation and reconstruction of that country send a very clear message: the administration's Iraq policy is a fiasco. And a foreseeable one at that.


Posted by: James B. Shearer | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 3:40 PM
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Perhaps I will someday subtly drop hints. Indeed, perhaps I already have...

It is almost tempting to tear through the archives, but why bother when I know someone like Ogged will soon post a catalog of the possible links. Undoubtedly taken from the grand spreadsheet.


Posted by: Po-Mo Polymath | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 3:56 PM
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But then I would endure the humiliation of, "Dear God, woman, what on earth possessed you to marry that?!" Perhaps I will someday subtly drop hints. Indeed, perhaps I already have...

Just like purloined letter...it is Unfogged!!!!


Posted by: Will | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 4:00 PM
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the high-end food and kind of ethnic quisine seem to have changed

The great thing about Johnny's (the one on Fulton is best, near West Side) is that it's high-end and ethnic. It's the kind of place a particularly wealthy and sophisticated mobster would have eaten in the late 50s. You keep expecting Sinatra to walk in.

Very politically incorrect menu -- there are like two whole pages, in small print, of veal dishes, most of which also involve foie gras one way or another.

Great wine cuisine, the list is good but priced sort of steep. You can bring your own bottle.

RFTS, depending on your dietary habits you should really try the place.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 4:02 PM
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Delong's non-citing is completely not a problem -- clearly just a careless error. I'm just delighted by the thought that I may have actually helped make John Yoo's life a little more difficult, in some real sense.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 7:50 PM
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That sounds like a good feeling.


Posted by: felix | Link to this comment | 04- 9-08 7:58 PM
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