Re: Get It Out

1

I'd like to see Emerson taking the "pro" side and Will taking the "con" side on this, stat.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 11:24 AM
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I am in favor of youtube videos such as this one.

They are for business.


Posted by: Will | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 11:31 AM
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The first sentence of the article is too long and describing anything as having a potential to disgrace is a very strange sentence structure, especially when the author doesn't mean that taking part in that thing is potentially disgraceful. I also question the use of "despite" in the third paragraph. Why would the legal end of a marriage be a reason to stop talking about it?


Posted by: washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 11:32 AM
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Ms. Trunk wrote about going to what she thought was a first session with a new marriage counselor chosen by her husband only to discover it was a divorce lawyer's office.

Bravo, Sir!


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 11:32 AM
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In re 4: Will? Have you ever pulled that one?


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 11:33 AM
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in emotionally charged times, some people go to the Web

Too great.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 11:37 AM
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No. I dont want an unrepresented opposing party coming to my office. Too dangerous. They then accuse you of undue influence.


Posted by: Will | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 11:40 AM
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I think I have told the story of the pro se husband who gets his turn to ask questions during the divorce depositions in my office.

His first question to his wife:

"Isn't it true that you are a whore and a slut?"


Posted by: Will | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 11:42 AM
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It will be like, 'Oh yeah, I expected that.'

I don't buy this for even a fraction of a second.

That said, I do really wish they'd said what kind of pr0n the theatre executive had. Details, people!


Posted by: Robust McManlyPants | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 11:42 AM
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"When the Ex Blogs, the Dirtiest Laundry Is Aired."


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 11:43 AM
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"Isn't it true that you are a whore and a slut?"

"That depends on what your definition of 'are' is."


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 11:44 AM
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a Manhattan law firm with a thriving matrimonial practice

"Thriving" - sounds like an ad.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 11:44 AM
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8: and?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 11:47 AM
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12: like the divorce billboards around LA: "Wouldn't you be happier? Get Divorced! Call xxx-xxx-xxxx!"


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 11:48 AM
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You know what would be hilarious is if Divorce lawyers starting sponsoring husband and wife junkets to places where infidelity was likely to happen; they could do it in the guise of spousal counseling.

"Troubled marriage? Spend an all-expenses paid healing and recovery weekend in two separate rooms at the Hard Rock Hotel and Casino in Las Vegas! Bachelor and Bachelorette parties included so you can return ready to renew your vows!"


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 11:50 AM
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and, the wife's father jumped up. Manly grabbing without fighting came next. My partner's shirt got ripped. I got the guy out of the office. Police were called.


Posted by: Will | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 11:50 AM
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Why was the wife's father even there?!


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 11:53 AM
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16: gotta figure that didn't work out to well for Mr. Pro Se in the end.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 11:53 AM
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Filial bonds.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 11:54 AM
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17: because it's exciting!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 11:54 AM
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15: Wasn't there a TV show like that?

But maybe the couples were engaged, not yet married.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 11:54 AM
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Big balls to pull that with (soon-to-be-ex) FIL sitting there.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 11:54 AM
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21: oh, good point. And it was terrible.

Oh well.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 11:54 AM
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15: See, in this thread your suggestions are practical, Sifu.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 11:55 AM
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Well, I already told Will this in another thread, but there are NYC subway ads for a law practice that seems to tackle only divorce and immigration. The ads for both of their services are the same: A man in a cage looking befuddled with the word TRAPPED? superimposed. The copy at the bottom either encourages one to fix one's immigration status or get a divorce.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 11:58 AM
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"Isn't it true that you are a whore and a slut?"

These debate moderators' questions are getting more and more inflammatory.

BTW, I heard noted journalist Jake Tapper on NPR today defending the practice of asking candidates exclusively about irrelevant and nonsensical issues. It basically went as follows.
Q: "Hi there Jake Tapper."
A: "Heh heh, here I am to defend my profession, heh heh. Now I know what happens when a candidate's supporters think you've been unfair, heh heh,"
Q: "So, a lot of people think Gibson and Stephanopolous's questions were irrelevant and pointless in addition to being inflammatory. Is there any way that this could be seen as not being the case?"
A: "Well, a lot of Obama supporters think the questions were unfairly biased against Obama, and we try not to be biased, but it seemed like Obama hadn't been getting many tough questions, so I'm sorry if Obama's supporters thought it was unfairly biased against Obama, but it's important to ask tough questions."
Q: "It seems like a lot of the complaints weren't about the questions being tough or necessarily biased against one candidate, but instead some people thought the questions were irrelevant and nonsensical. Do you think there might be some truth to that?"
A: "Well, the questions were tough, but I don't think they were necessarily biased against one candidate. And as for being irrelevant, you know, these are the kind of questions the candidates are going to get from journalists, so it's important for journalists to ask these questions so the candidates know what kind of questions journalists are going to ask."


Posted by: Auto-banned | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 12:04 PM
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26: yeah, I like that the rationalizing devolves to "We must ask these questions because they are going to be asked."


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 12:05 PM
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Why was the wife's father even there?!

To be a witness for his daughter.


Posted by: Will | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 12:06 PM
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28: how did he know the answer was no, though?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 12:07 PM
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it's important for journalists to ask these questions so the candidates know what kind of questions journalists are going to ask

If I had been conducting the interview, I would have been tempted to punch Tapper in the face, then explain it was important to do it then, since I was going to do it at the end of the interview anyhow.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 12:08 PM
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What kind of decadent society do these journalists think they are presiding over?!?!? There are actual problems in the world!!!


Posted by: Auto-banned | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 12:09 PM
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30: "these kinds of reactions are coming, and we really need to see how you would respond to them."


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 12:10 PM
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I love you, apo.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 12:12 PM
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"I'm sorry if you think that punch was unfair, but it's nothing compared to what you'll get when Sifu Tweety interviews you."


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 12:13 PM
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Has anyone asked the moderators how these are debate questions?

Moderator: Senator Obama, does reverend Wright love the country as much as you do? This is a question for Senator Clinton. Senator Obama will have 30 seconds to respond to her.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 12:15 PM
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Apo is part of the Vast Right Hook Conspiracy.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 12:15 PM
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34: "obviously in this campaign punchability has turned out to be a key issue."


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 12:16 PM
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when her husband did find out about the podcasts last year, he sued her

Clearly, they're both assholes.

she has written about the problems of a son who has Asperger's syndrome and said that both she and her husband believed the challenges of raising him helped cause their divorce. . . . "It is a generational issue," she said. "We think it will be a big deal, but it won't be to them. By the time they are old enough to read it, they will have spent their entire life online. It will be like, 'Oh yeah, I expected that.' "

This, on the other hand, is heinous.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 12:17 PM
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39

Also! Also! Didn't I tell you guys worrying about "electability" would lead to tears? Didn't I? Didn't I?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 12:17 PM
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Has anyone asked the moderators how these are debate questions?

Senator Obama, my question for you is: FLAG! FLAG! woooo, FLAG! You have thirty seconds to respond.


Posted by: felix | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 12:19 PM
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What's enormously frustrating about this is that there are so many good questions that could have been asked. I can't remember where, but somewhere before Super Tuesday I saw a hometown-newspaper "Letters" page with readers' questions for the candidates. Some I thought were more valuable than others, but in general they were all actual questions.

Why do we need journalists to be "personalities" again? I wouldn't care if they asked the debate questions from behind a wizard-of-Oz screen. It's not about you guys, folks!

Bah. I guess I should go check and see what the reporter I talked to yesterday actually printed.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 12:19 PM
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This, on the other hand, is heinous.

Says the woman who's told us all about her son's phimosis.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 12:20 PM
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I like that the rationalizing devolves to "We must ask these questions because they are going to be asked."

"We should talk about how heinous Hillary Clinton is, because everyone else is going to."


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 12:21 PM
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42: He doesn't have phimosis. And that's a little different than "he led to our divorce." Which I can see writing, but not dismissing the impact of quite so blithely.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 12:22 PM
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I guess I should go check and see what the reporter I talked to yesterday actually printed.

Were you wearing a lapel pin?


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 12:22 PM
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If these people blogged, or YouTubed, or otherwise documented their marital strife in the voice that the bourgeoisie is educated to think appropriate -- the diffident, redemption-by-exposition voice of Modern Love columns and books by people who teach creative nonfiction classes -- would we make more or less fun of them?

Put another way, you're all racist. Maybe sexist.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 12:23 PM
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I was on the phone. I did not mention the small American flag that I keep on my desk, though.

And thank heavens he didn't ask me for any of my own political opinions. Woman-on-the-street interpretations of other people's opinions!

I was kind of embarrasssed that the first few people I could think of to refer him to for quotes were men, though. Not totally representative of humanity.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 12:24 PM
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46: more? The same?

Wait I thought we were making fun of them because they slotted exactly into that category?

I'm so confused. Somebody send me the fakebook, will you?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 12:24 PM
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49

47: lengthy series of one binary choice or the other are bound to occur in a random sample.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 12:25 PM
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Also! Also! Didn't I tell you guys worrying about "electability" would lead to tears? Didn't I? Didn't I?

Hmm... no, sorry, not ringing any bells.

I do recall bob warning us away from Obama, but no one would listen. Tragic, really.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 12:27 PM
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I did not mention the small American flag that I keep on my desk, though.

Out of shame?


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 12:27 PM
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or otherwise documented their marital strife we'd make their novels required reading for high-schoolers. Hello, F. Scott Fitzgerald.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 12:28 PM
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lengthy series of one binary choice or the other are bound to occur in a random sample.

You mean like that thing where heebie kept being right?

Man, am I glad that's over.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 12:30 PM
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Coming up with these tough questions is easy.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 12:30 PM
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He doesn't have phimosis

Yay, PK!


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 12:31 PM
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Why, hello yourself, Witt.

Would you like to come around my place after Zelda passes out in the soup tureen?


Posted by: F. Scott Fitzgerald | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 12:31 PM
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lengthy series of one binary choice or the other are bound to occur in a random sample.

41...42...43...


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 12:31 PM
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48: I think more. But you're still racist.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 12:31 PM
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He doesn't have phimosis

How can you be sure? In my case it is only manifested during a raging erection.


Posted by: OPINIONATED SWIFT OLD PEOPLE FOR TRUTH | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 12:33 PM
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And the day I am ashamed of my flag will be a sad day indeed. No way am I letting 230 years of history -- pride and disgrace together -- be defined by a few extremists who think flag = scared authoritarians.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 12:34 PM
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59: Because we saw an actual urologist, who confirmed what I thought, which is that PK's penis is perfectly healthy, if awfully large for a child of his age. I can't help it that the regular doctor is Jewish.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 12:35 PM
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59 to 60.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 12:36 PM
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Anti-Smite.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 12:36 PM
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61 is useless without pics


Posted by: Auto-banned | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 12:37 PM
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I'm miffed that nobody is commenting on my brilliant joke in 57. Sigh.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 12:38 PM
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And that's a little different than "he led to our divorce." Which I can see writing, but not dismissing the impact of quite so blithely.

It is hardly shocking or surprising for someone to express that having a special needs child was a factor in them getting divorced.


Posted by: Will | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 12:38 PM
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66: Oh, agreed--like I said, I can easily see writing that if I were in her shoes. It's more the "meh, it won't bother him" attitude that I'm offended by.

I'm okay with people being assholes; I just want them to acknowledge it.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 12:39 PM
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Dammit.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 12:41 PM
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65: hah.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 12:41 PM
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65: OK, I'll confess to not getting it.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 12:41 PM
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It's more the "meh, it won't bother him" attitude that I'm offended by.

You have to appreciate that she blames him for all sorts of things; the divorce is the least of it. So really, one more thing won't bother him.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 12:42 PM
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72

American presidents. We're up to 43 now, and they've all been men.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 12:43 PM
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73

||
Travel bleg: Anybody here been to Slovenia?
|>


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 12:45 PM
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73: how is that a bleg?

"Please, for the love of god, have been to Slovenia."


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 12:47 PM
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He doesn't have phimosis.

Good. You'll need to think of another reason for his future Presidential assassination attempt, though.


Posted by: Tassled Loafered Leech | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 12:47 PM
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He doesn't have phimosis.

It's unfortunate, but perhaps fitting, that this came up in a thread titled "Get It Out".


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 12:48 PM
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74: Pedant. Okay, has anybody here been to Slovenia and have suggestions for things to see in the eastern part of the country?


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 12:49 PM
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Does 57 have something to do with "life, the universe, and everything"?

Confused.


Posted by: Auto-banned | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 12:49 PM
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My wife's sister and brother in law lived in Slovenia a couple of years ago, if that helps. What's the question?


Posted by: Tassled Loafered Leech | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 12:49 PM
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72: Very good.

I told you that Iris wants Hillary to be pres because the last pres was a "he," and it wouldn't be fair if there were two "he" presidents in a row.

Forget Santa Claus, I don't know when we can tell her about the other 42.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 12:50 PM
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Some friends of mine just came back from Croatia and were raving about it, and Croatia borders Slovenia. Though they said everyone they met in Croatia was a hipster, e.g. when they discovered that my friends lives in Chicago their first reaction was, "Cool, that's where Pitchfork is!"


Posted by: washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 12:50 PM
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Oh, I meant to add that I declare my comment to be helpful.


Posted by: washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 12:51 PM
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80: Now you can confront her with "but the last president was white and it wouldn't be fair to have two of those in a row either" and see how she resolves conflicting notions of social justice. Maybe she'll start the Draft Condi movement.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 12:52 PM
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Back to the debate: Crooked Timber links to a open letter of protest about how the debate was moderated.

Does anybody else remember the scene in Spike Lee's Get On the Bus where they're sharing stories about how their parents used to spank/beat them and the one kid says "My mom gave me the longest lecture"?


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 12:53 PM
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81: Yeah, we'd like to go to Croatia, but unfortunately it's not an option for this trip. Hence my question about the eastern part of the country.


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 12:54 PM
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71: Fair enough.

80.2: PK was watching a youtube video of Michelle Obama over my shoulder the other day and said "see, if Obama gets elected then his wife will be in the white house, and we've never really had such a powerful woman helping the president before."

His education has been sadly neglected, I fear.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 12:56 PM
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Maybe he just means in terms of brute strength.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 12:57 PM
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Was PK even alive during the Clinton administration?

78: No, see, this was a female history-geek joke. If it had been a male sci-fi geek joke, I would have brought in Douglas Adams.

*n.b. geek in my world is entirely gender-neutral.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 12:58 PM
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83: Done. She was unmoved. Her best friend (among others) "has dark skin," but Iris is all about grrrls.

Nat Nat (aforementioned friend) is an excellent candidate for first black female mixed-race adoptee president. The kid had evident leadership skills at 7 months old.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 12:59 PM
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I still think probably Eleanor Roosevelt would have won.

In any case, I found it both cute and horribly disturbing that he thinks first lady is a nice runner-up type job. Sigh. I've tried *so hard*.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 12:59 PM
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88: No, he was born the year before 9/11.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 1:00 PM
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I've tried *so hard*.

What, to convince him that VP is a really important slot?


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 1:01 PM
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90.1: Won what?

Do you mean she should have run in 1944? Or '32? I don't see the country going to a woman president mid-war.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 1:02 PM
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Heh. The problem is that his own experience of sexism is mostly being made fun of for having long hair, and being offended by being told that pink/nailpolish/glittery/cute is for girls. So he's totally got that resentful "are you kidding? the *real* sexism is directed against me" thing going on.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 1:03 PM
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Also! Also! Didn't I tell you guys worrying about "electability" would lead to tears? Didn't I? Didn't I?

You sense of causation is questionable.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 1:03 PM
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I thought she meant "Eleanor Roosevelt would win a physical strength competition between first ladies".


Posted by: peter | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 1:03 PM
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93: The "physically strongest" first lady contest.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 1:04 PM
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Maybe she'll start the Draft Condi movement.

Only if she comes out.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 1:05 PM
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"are you kidding? the *real* sexism is directed against me"

Oh, they're going to love him at the Wimmen's Center.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 1:05 PM
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Hey, has anyone seen the kids' book about Amelia Earhart and Eleanor? A fictionalized telling of their IRL meeting, which included an unscheduled spin around the nighttime skies of DC. Very charming.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 1:07 PM
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99: I know. I've obviously gone about this all wrong.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 1:07 PM
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The "physically strongest" first lady contest.

No way. Prior training techniques sucked. I'd have taken a '93 era HRC, I think. Maybe, frankly, Barbara Bush: weight matters, and--if it's a straight up fight-- hate matters.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 1:07 PM
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I'm not sure if Bled counts as eastern Slovenia, but it's nice: lake, waterfall nearby, hiking etc. The coolest thing I saw in Slovenia was the cave in the southern part with the deep underground gorge. I don't remember what it was called; had to walk a mile or two from the train station.* I was only passing through, so this is about all I know.

*Upon arriving I found a bunch of tour buses in the parking lot. Apparently few people show up alone, on foot, and intending to hear an English tour. So I can't tell you what the guides actually said about the cave.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 1:10 PM
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102: how many first ladies could you take in a fight?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 1:11 PM
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Maybe, frankly, Barbara Bush: weight matters, and--if it's a straight up fight-- hate matters.

Also, demonic powers.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 1:13 PM
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Three U.S. First Ladies, all masters of T'ai Chi, are often not a match for a single U.S. President endowed with karate. It took a group of ten U.S. First Ladies, all experts in T'ai Chi, to subdue Gerald Ford at the height of his powers.

Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 1:14 PM
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Prior training techniques sucked, which would matter if Hillary (referring to her as First Lady and therefore using her first name), trained. As it is, you probably want someone who became first lady while still young and did some kind of physically intensive work beforehand.


Posted by: washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 1:15 PM
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108

Surely there were some hardy farm wives in the olden days, no? LIfe used to be tougher and people generally more fit. I'd be shocked if the champion didn't come from the 19th Century.


Posted by: Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 1:15 PM
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Next you're going to tell me that most presidents weren't common peasant farmers, aren't you? But this is a democracy!!


Posted by: Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 1:16 PM
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108: I was thinking about that. But many first ladies probably came from families with servants. Or "servants" before 1865.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 1:16 PM
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Surely there were some hardy farm wives in the olden days, no? LIfe used to be tougher

Not for the ruling class it wasn't.

I doubt that any of the founder's wives did any farm work. That's what the slaves were for.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 1:17 PM
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You guys are focusing too much on recent first ladies. In a fight, my money would be on some earlier first ladies, like Abigail Adams or Dolly Madison. Tough upbringing, hard life, kick ass of modern softies.


Posted by: Tassled Loafered Leech | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 1:17 PM
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No servants or slaves for the Adams, if memory serves. Farmhands, yes.


Posted by: Tassled Loafered Leech | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 1:19 PM
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Frances Cleveland was the youngest First Lady at time of inauguration, but doesn't sound promising otherwise.


Posted by: washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 1:19 PM
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A candidate.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 1:21 PM
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Does William Rufus King count as a first lady for this purpose?


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 1:21 PM
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Is Abigail-Adams-as-portrayed-by-Laura-Linney in the fight? I'd pick her in a heartbeat.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 1:22 PM
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There are a lot of sad family stories in the 19th century presidencies.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 1:24 PM
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There are a lot of sad family stories in the 19th century presidencies.

A couple years ago my aunt discovered that we still owned a part share in a crypt in a cemetery in NYC; we were disturbed when we realized that most of the bodies interred in that crypt were between 1 and 3 years old.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 1:26 PM
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most of the bodies interred in that crypt were between 1 and 3 years old

So somebody's hiding their victims in your crypt, you're saying?


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 1:27 PM
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Henchman 21: Here is where you are wrong, my friend. This woman has killed before.

Henchman 24: Allegedly.

Henchman 21: Okay, whatever. But she was a big girl. We are talking about a large, healthy woman of questionable stability.

Henchman 24: Oh, you are totally underestimating the never-say-die scrappiness of a survivor.

The Monarch: Hey, guess what? Nobody cares who would win in a crazy fantasy fist-fight between Anne Frank and Lizzie Borden.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 1:28 PM
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Actually, we are drawing the wrong conclusion from the hardship of the 18th and 19th centuries.

A modern first lady would win because she has had a lifetime of adequate nutrition, health care that actually accomplishes something, and is over 5' tall.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 1:28 PM
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There are a lot of sad family stories in the 19th century presidencies.


Posted by: Robust McManlyPants | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 1:29 PM
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A modern first lady would win because she has had a lifetime of adequate nutrition, health care that actually accomplishes something, and is over 5' tall.

...and has access to firearms with much better accuracy and lethality at long range.


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 1:31 PM
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A modern first lady would win because she has had a lifetime of adequate nutrition, health care that actually accomplishes something, and is over 5' tall.

Exactly. I wonder how much age factors in.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 1:31 PM
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RMP and I are on the same page.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 1:31 PM
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Ok, so let's go with Mamie Eisenhower, career Army wife. Not exactly the lap of luxury.


Posted by: Tassled Loafered Leech | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 1:32 PM
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And, as Tricky Dick said, "That Mamie doesn't give a shit!"


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 1:33 PM
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Ladybird Johnson would have kicked Mamie's ass.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 1:34 PM
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If we're talking about a fight, again I like HRC. Plenty of opportunity to learn to beat the shit out of someone, husband or paramour, when you're married to the Big Dog. And I think experience tells in things like this.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 1:36 PM
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Anyone with "lady" as part of their first name is not kicking anyone's ass, Apo.


Posted by: Tassled Loafered Leech | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 1:36 PM
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Ok, so let's go with Mamie Eisenhower, career Army wife. Not exactly the lap of luxury.

You're thinking of spouses of the enlisted men and lower grade officers. Ike was supreme commander. That's like being Royalty, only with real power. Mamie wouldn't make it to the first round bell against Lady Bird Johnson. Mostly because Lady Bird, instead of going back to her corner after shaking hands, would knee Mamie in the groin.



Posted by: KR | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 1:37 PM
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There are a lot of sad family stories in the 19th century presidencies.

The proportion of first ladies dying in while their husbands were in office or never visiting the White House because their husband died before they arrived seems a bit higher in the 19th century. As does the percentage of relatives acting as hostesses because there was no first lady. Add in the infant mortality, and I'm sticking with my original formulation.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 1:37 PM
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131 gets it exactly wrong.


Posted by: Bave Dee | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 1:38 PM
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Damn, apo-pwned.


Posted by: KR | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 1:38 PM
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(and along with the infant mortality: strokes and tuberculosis)


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 1:38 PM
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120: It's where the Tweety Family exposed their cursed young.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 1:38 PM
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Meanwhile, I wouldn't bet against Mary Todd Lincoln in a hand to hand fight.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 1:39 PM
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If we're talking about a fight, again I like HRC.

Relative youth while in office helps her out as well. I'm guessing Jackie had some killer "Emma Peel" moves, so I wouldn't rule her out.


Posted by: Tassled Loafered Leech | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 1:40 PM
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138: Crazy only gets you so far.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 1:41 PM
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131: Lady Snowblood begs to differ.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 1:41 PM
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122

"and is over 5' tall. "

Frances Cleveland mentioned above was over 5'7" and at 21 would have the advantage of youth.


Posted by: James B. Shearer | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 1:42 PM
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I'm guessing Jackie had some killer "Emma Peel" moves, so I wouldn't rule her out.

Jackie's a light weight candy-ass who cares more about how she looks than how she does. Out in the first round.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 1:43 PM
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Grace Coolidge might be the winner:

She worked hard, kept up appearances, took her part in town activities, attended her church, and offset his shyness with a gay friendliness. She bore a second son, named Calvin Jr. in 1908, and it was she who played backyard baseball with the boys.

Also, another sad family story.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 1:43 PM
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141: also Lady Jaye. who, like Debra Winger, was in the Israeli Army.


Posted by: peter | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 1:44 PM
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Frances Cleveland was pretty.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 1:44 PM
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141: Also Lady Jane. Once you've face Cobra Commander, everyone else seems like a vacation.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 1:45 PM
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Lou Henry Hoover:

Charles Henry took his daughter on camping trips in the hills--her greatest pleasures in her early teens. Lou became a fine horsewoman; she hunted, and preserved specimens with the skill of a taxidermist; she developed an enthusiasm for rocks, minerals, and mining.

Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 1:47 PM
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Actually I think Edith Galt Wilson (his second wife and the one who basically ran things at the end) would be a good bet. I have also read (but can't find now) an account of her being a very formidable sexual partner. (Wikipedia does say that after his death she was, A highly respected figure in the society of the capital, though rumored to be quite open in her admiration for younger men.)


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 1:47 PM
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OK, I switch my voter to Ms. Hoover.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 1:48 PM
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145: Lady Deathstrike too. Not the Israeli Army part, the begging to differ part.


Posted by: washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 1:48 PM
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"That was no lady, that was my cyborg ninja assassin!"


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 1:49 PM
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150: Became first lady at 55, no chance. What is this, Rocky Balboa?


Posted by: washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 1:49 PM
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Margaret Taylor seems to match the ideal of 18th century pioneer toughness that Brock suggests above.

They were married the following June, and for a while the young wife stayed on the farm given them as a wedding present by Zachary's father. She bore her first baby there, but followed her husband from one remote garrison to another along the western frontier. An admiring civilian official cited her as one of the "delicate females...reared in tenderness" who had to educate "worthy and most interesting" children at a fort in Indian country.


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 1:51 PM
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153: Foreman took a belt at 50, IIRC.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 1:52 PM
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Anyone with "lady" as part of their first name is not kicking anyone's ass, Apo.

131 gets it exactly wrong.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 1:52 PM
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I misread 155 as "Feynman". Boy would that have been awesome.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 1:53 PM
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Eric and I are sitting here, and the answer, he says, is obviously Edith Bolling Galt Wilson. Who, he points out, actually ran the nation -- though not well. I would add, for those who point to Mary Todd Lincoln are forgetting that most days she couldn't get out of bed.

In closing, we are historians.


Posted by: Ari | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 1:53 PM
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Also, I know that the second sentence doesn't make sense. Whatever.


Posted by: Ari | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 1:54 PM
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Having read further into the 20th century, I take back what I said about the 19th century (whose medical conditions seem to have persisted for quite a while).


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 1:54 PM
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149

"... Edith Galt Wilson ..."

5'9" and 43.


Posted by: James B. Shearer | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 1:55 PM
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most days she couldn't get out of bed.

You wouldn't hold the fight on one of those days, you know.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 1:55 PM
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I challenge the idea that running the nation translates into fighting skills.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 1:56 PM
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162: Maybe you wouldn't, but I wouldn't put it past Hillary.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 1:57 PM
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5'9" and 43.

I have to admit that the height is appealing.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 1:57 PM
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So Edith Wilson vs. HRC cagematch. One ran the country, one wants to. Live Pay per View,


Posted by: Tassled Loafered Leech | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 1:57 PM
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165: Eleanor Roosevelt was 6' even, and I bet she had great reach.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 1:58 PM
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I've also been thinking that the strain of caring for Gordie Howe Woodrow would have had some effect on Edith.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 1:59 PM
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167: She didn't like men much, Jetpack, so get your mind out of the gutter.


Posted by: Ari | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 1:59 PM
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168: Imagine the strain of helping Taft get out of the bathtub.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 1:59 PM
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Jackie's a light weight candy-ass who cares more about how she looks than how she does. Out in the first round.

The Great Outdoor First Lady Fight!


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 2:00 PM
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171: Three days. Three acres. Forty-three well-brought-up women.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 2:01 PM
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This important debate could easily support a discussion group analogous to the one which is the topic of this article, though I doubt people would be as passionate about this project.


Posted by: washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 2:04 PM
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167: "Men's alright for fightin'"
-- Eleanor Roosevelt to Harry S. Truman, 1960.

So there.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 2:04 PM
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I think we can all agree that, should he become the first husband, Bill Clinton could kick every historical first lady's ass in a walk. The only question is how many he could take if they could gang up on him.

On second reading, that last statement is open to multiple interpretations, given that it's WJC we're talking about.


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 2:04 PM
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173: is there no link to their final list? I clicked around but couldn't find it. What a rip-off..


Posted by: Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 2:07 PM
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Bill Clinton could kick every historical first lady's ass in a walk

Dude, Clinton has already had a heart attack. That, and Hillary's massive ass, lead me to think that Team Clinton would suffer from a decided lack of mobility. The strategy against them should be to move and jab to the head.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 2:11 PM
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168: strain of caring strain of caring for Woodrow would have had some effect on Edith.

Not sure. I recall reading an account by some famous raconteur of his liaison with Edith. As I remember it, he claimed she grabbed him in a vise-like grip upon his entering and "took two comes before uncunting".


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 2:11 PM
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This latter half of this thread, and 177 in particular, is emblematic of the baleful consequences of LizardBreath getting a new job.


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 2:12 PM
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"took two comes before uncunting"

Again, the thread title seems noteworthy.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 2:13 PM
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This latter half of this thread, and 177 in particular, is emblematic of the baleful consequences of LizardBreath getting a new job.

Don't get pissy just because you were wrong about the Big Dog.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 2:15 PM
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176: is there no link to their final list

I think this is it here (actually they have the top 25).

1. Babe Ruth
2. Honus Wagner
3. Barry Bonds
4. Willie Mays
5. Ted Williams
6. Ty Cobb
7. Walter Johnson
8. Mickey Mantle
9. Hank Aaron
10. Stan Musial


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 2:16 PM
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178 is way too good to factcheck.


Posted by: Bave Dee | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 2:17 PM
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167

"Eleanor Roosevelt was 6' even, and I bet she had great reach."

Actually 5'8.5" and 47.


Posted by: James B. Shearer | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 2:18 PM
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Who started calling Clinton "the Big Dog"? Can I blame Atrios for this?


Posted by: strasmangelo jones | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 2:19 PM
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There will never be another .400 first lady.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 2:19 PM
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Can I blame Atrios for this?

I think it's a pretty old--and certainly an obvious--nickname, so I think not.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 2:20 PM
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148

I agree Lou Hoover sounds like a contender, 53 but 5'8", large framed and physically fit.


Posted by: James B. Shearer | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 2:22 PM
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As far as "military wife" goes, Julia Grant was an effete elite, and Andrew Jackson's wife would have been a good candidate had she not died before he achieved the supreme office.

Mrs. Zachary Taylor was pretty old upon entering office, but looks pretty fierce.

Also I was unaware that Zachary Taylor's daughter married Jefferson Davis.


Posted by: peter | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 2:23 PM
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We need to narrow the 43 (42, actually, right?) down to a field of 16, and seed them. I think matchups are going to be key.


Posted by: SomeCallMe | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 2:24 PM
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187: What's obvious about it?


Posted by: strasmangelo jones | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 2:25 PM
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Looking through the various biographies, I wonder if anyone's ever tried to chart the social position of first ladies (perhaps including women who were not married to the president, but were White House "hostesses" when there was no first lady) over time as compared to the social position of the presidents. It would be interesting if they paralleled each other all the way through or if it turned out that there were differences: men from a lower - but not that low - status marrying into society, or that sort of thing.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 2:25 PM
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Less than 42, even.

Andrew Jackson's "first ladies" were his nieces" since he was a widower.

James Buchanan, never married.


Posted by: peter | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 2:25 PM
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What's obvious about it?

Nothing, stras. Bill Clinton is the personification of evil and nothing even vaguely complimentary about him is true, let alone obvious.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 2:26 PM
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I think matchups are going to be key.

Hence, the importance of a structuring it as round-robin tournament, or at least as a double elimination tournament. (The drawback, of course, is that you have to decide the early rounds by points or knockout, that is, you can't let them fight to the death.)


Posted by: KR | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 2:27 PM
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193

Wilson had two.


Posted by: James B. Shearer | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 2:27 PM
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What's obvious about it?

Once you reintroduce the omitted-out-of-courtesy middle syllable "horn," it makes more sense.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 2:28 PM
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This is apparently a more serious conversation than I thought it was.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 2:29 PM
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196: are we allowing that as a tag-team, or not?

his first one suffered from Bright's disease and was called "Miss Ellie Lou" by all who knew her, so I don't see her bringing much to the table.


Posted by: peter | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 2:29 PM
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191:

1. Big Dog is a pretty standard nickname.
2. He is, by everyone's current admission, something of a dog, and there have long been jokes to that effect: "can't keep that dog on the porch," etc.
3. He was the superstar of the party, so a standard superlative nickname was insufficient.

It just suggests itself. I remember using it before I remember hearing it. Obviously, I could be misremembering, but independent creation/usage by a lot of people strikes me as all too probable.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 2:30 PM
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I favor a Royal Rumble format, with one first lady being added to the battle royale every minute and the occasional surprise entrant:

"What the -- that -- that's Margaret Thatcher's music!"


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 2:31 PM
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A strong candidate


Posted by: peter | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 2:37 PM
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Not having much luck searching for the origins of the "Big Dog" nickname, but I did get a hit from a 1996 piece in Time. However, it was used there in a campaign piece in reference to Bob Dole(!), by one of his campaign staff and has no indication that the nickname was more commonly used for Clinton. So indirect evidence of post-1996 origin (or at least becoming widespread only after that date.)


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 2:37 PM
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So indirect evidence of post-1996 origin (or at least becoming widespread only after that date.)

I think acknowledgment of his doggishness is tied to the time when we all found out about Lewinsky.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 2:39 PM
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204: As I understand it, there were certain rumors of such things months and even years prior to that incident.


Posted by: Auto-banned | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 2:40 PM
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"took two comes before uncunting".

Word Of The Day


Posted by: felix | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 2:41 PM
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I think that "Big Dog" refers to the way Clinton was jolly, friendly, and innocuous-looking but also capable of casually knocking you down if you got in his way. It's like Bubba excpet teentsy bit classier.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 2:42 PM
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205: Right, but not (I think) a widespread belief that it was still happening (and was therefore understood as an unchangeable part of his character).


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 2:42 PM
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203

I found a reference to Clinton as "big dog" from 1996:

Yes, but Big Bill showed who the Bull Moose of Washington REALLY is -- and in the long run the news guys and gals know it: he had Brinkley
apologizing like a whipped pup Sunday morning. They are all sycophants at heart -- what they believe means nothing -- Brinkley included -- if they can get the Big Dog to wet on their shoes!

but it wasn't common.


Posted by: James B. Shearer | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 2:47 PM
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"Big Dog" is a standard nickname for the honcho, so it probably took off soon after he was re-elected, and became more common after he left office, when he was the de facto leader of the party (and obviously cooler than both candidates to succeed him). But I'm searching Nexis now to check.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 2:49 PM
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That's a lot of nicknames in one paragraph. Also, given my fear of the archives, I hope you'll forgive the following: has their already been a discussion of which president we'd least like to face in a knife fight?


Posted by: Ari | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 2:49 PM
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211 to 210. And beyond.


Posted by: Ari | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 2:50 PM
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Obviously when the pup is wearing shoes and being whipped, he would welcome the cooling flow of urine from a larger dog who is also a moose.


Posted by: peter | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 2:50 PM
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Betty Ford was a dancer, which implies strength and agility. The cancer thing might work against her, though.


Posted by: L. | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 2:51 PM
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has their already been a discussion of which president we'd least like to face in a knife fight?

Andrew Jackson. Next question.



Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 2:51 PM
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...has their already been a discussion of which president we'd least like to face in a knife fight?

Lincoln had the reach but a soft heart. Andrew Jackson was not unfamiliar with personal combat, as I recall. Teddy Roosevelt might not win, but he'd cut you pretty badly with his enthusiastic slashing.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 2:52 PM
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The cancer thing might work against her, though.

That, and the alcoholism and opiate addiction.


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 2:52 PM
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I'm not sure US Grant would go down easy.


Posted by: Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 2:54 PM
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209 : from alt.showbiz.gossip -- ah, the misty water-colored memories!


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 2:54 PM
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Anyone know how to do a case-sensitive search in Nexis?


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 2:55 PM
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217: That might work to Betty's advantage -- she could take a beating and not feel a thing.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 2:56 PM
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Andrew Jackson and Teddy Roosevelt should have dueled. First one to dislodge the bullet already buried in the other's chest wins.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 2:56 PM
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Washington was a tall, athletic man (bad teeth aside), with some experience at close quarters fighting the French and Native Americans as a young man in the mid-18th century. It might not be wise to disregard him.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 2:58 PM
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214: And as Billy Bob Thornton says in Bad Santa, she'd be good in a fight because she can't feel anything.


Posted by: washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 3:00 PM
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Teddy Roosevelt might not win, but he'd cut you pretty badly with his enthusiastic slashing.

And which side does the smart money bet on if in a gang fight between the Democratic Presidents and their Republican counterparts?

I like the Dems' chances, provided we get the Democrat-Republicans on our side. Also, Grover Cleveland needs to stand in front of FDR's wheelchair and make sure no one gets close to him.


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 3:00 PM
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The 5 Most Badass Presidents of All-Time


Posted by: Eric | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 3:01 PM
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And which side does the smart money bet on if in a gang fight between the Democratic Presidents and their Republican counterparts?

Depends where Lincoln stands, on the principle that right makes might.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 3:02 PM
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Actually, were the bullets Jackson and Roosevelt took removed? I'm not sure I ever learned that detail.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 3:02 PM
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I would be inclined to fear Jackson the most. But my deep well of personal rage toward him might carry me through the fight. Washington would be scary, I think, because he was big enough to get cut badly and keep fighting. I've always wondered if TR was really tough or just a bit of a bully. (Where's Eric when you need him?) And I think people are dismissing Lincoln, who was rangy and apparently incredibly strong, too quickly. As he was dying, and so stripped naked by the surgeons who attended him, the onlookers, including much of the cabinet, were amazed at the corded mucles in his arms, back, and chest. Those are, I believe, known as the knife-fighting muscles.


Posted by: Ari | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 3:03 PM
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With zero independent information thanks to blanket censorship, Americans have nevertheless flocked to the government's support. The tail of the sex scandal may not be wagging the Big Dog here, but it is striking how Clinton, whom many Americans consider a nearly pathological liar, has been transformed by this "crisis" into a trustworthy anti-terrorist choirboy.

That's from a professor Warren Goldstein in October '98 in Newsday. "Big Dog" is probably the least interesting thing about those sentences. Actually, here's the next bit.

The magic of an enemy casts a seductive spell. So, of course, do long-range missiles that don't risk American lives. Call me a party pooper, but as our leaders launch into a siren's chorus tempting us to enlist in this anti -terrorist crusade, the most responsible thing we can do is put plugs in our ears and demand real information not only about bin Laden but about our government's anti-terrorism plans.

The last time we signed up for a global crusade against an unscrupulous enemy, we got taken on a 40-year ride that overthrew a half-dozen governments, killed millions in Indochina and propped up dictatorial torturers from Iran to Indonesia.

Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 3:04 PM
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223: What in god's name do teeth have to do with athleticism? What sports are you playing, man?


Posted by: Ari | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 3:04 PM
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215: Knecht has it. That top-five list was ridiculous.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 3:06 PM
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210

""Big Dog" is a standard nickname for the honcho, so it probably took off soon after he was re-elected, and became more common after he left office, when he was the de facto leader of the party (and obviously cooler than both candidates to succeed him). But I'm searching Nexis now to check."

A google groups search shows usage has exploded this year. 5910 hits for clinton "big dog" since January 1 vrs 820 in 2007 and 2730 (many false positives) since 1981. Usage seems to pick up in 1998 with an earlier peak in 2002 (with 632 hits).


Posted by: James B. Shearer | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 3:06 PM
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I would least want to fight Lincoln with broadswords in a 12 foot deep pit.


Posted by: Katherine | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 3:07 PM
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Lincoln's duel


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 3:07 PM
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Edith Bolling Galt Wilson. Who, he points out, actually ran the nation -- though not well.

Details, please?

Also, Hillary Clinton's "massive ass," break me a give. She's got a great ass.

Plus, lower center of gravity, greater stability. I'm willing to concede that she almost certainly doesn't have great upper-body strength, but if she could get someone to indian* wrestle, you might be surprised. Plus she's got that "don't fuck with me" mom-vibe going on.

*Racist, yes, I know.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 3:08 PM
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You can't argue with the truth, B.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 3:10 PM
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B, you really want 300 comments on Senator Clinton's ass? Break me a give, indeed.


Posted by: Ari | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 3:11 PM
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What in god's name do teeth have to do with athleticism? What sports are you playing, man?

Are you familiar with the Star Trek episode titled "Arena"?

As he was dying, and so stripped naked by the surgeons who attended him, the onlookers, including much of the cabinet, were amazed at the corded mucles in his arms, back, and chest. Those are, I believe, known as the knife-fighting muscles.

Knife-fighting is, I gather from the reading of my sheltered childhood, less a matter of muscle than sword-fighting. He was the Railsplitter, after all, and there are stories that Lincoln was a formidable wrestler in his youth and young manhood, in the sort of carnival/country fair contests from which a line can be drawn to Wrestlemania.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 3:11 PM
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aka pwned


Posted by: Ari | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 3:11 PM
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Shearer sounds right. I'll stop searching now.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 3:12 PM
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239: So if Washington had to face off with the Gorn, he'd have trouble? Also, you're equating Lincoln's feats of physical prowess with Wrestlemania? And I thought this was a patriotic blog.


Posted by: Ari | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 3:16 PM
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238: Hey, Ogged started it. Blame him.

237: Dick.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 3:17 PM
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I posted it here once before, but this picture might bring some over to the Teddy Roosevelt camp. (I think he's frowning because the photographer wouldn't let him pose with his cutlass.)


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 3:19 PM
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242: Doesn't Kirk bite ("as lions do") the Gorn's pea-green trapezius at one point?

As for Wrestlemania, it's my (limited) understanding that wrestling contests at country fairs during the 18th and 19th centuries were the arguable antecedents to the roaming take-on-all-comers wrestlers of traveling shows and circuses of the post-Civil War era, who in turn led to the singlet wrestlers of '50s and, eventually, Stone Cold Steve Austin.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 3:23 PM
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245: I had to check Wikipedia for the Gorn thing. Sorry, I'm a poseur. As for rassling, Wikipedia didn't have the relevant information, so how should I know?


Posted by: Ari | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 3:26 PM
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Some details on E. B. G. Wilson.


Posted by: Eric | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 3:30 PM
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I know one of you would accomodate me. Thank you, Eric.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 3:32 PM
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Wrestling is extremely patriotic, guys.

Don't have a source, but I've read that Lincoln was not only strong but rather freakishly strong.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 3:36 PM
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So agrees this site. Don't know what its sources are.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 3:42 PM
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president we'd least like to face in a knife fight

Any of the four living ones. All the rest, I could be all stabstabstabstab.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 3:43 PM
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Good luck finding Grant.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 3:44 PM
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249: I've been looking through biographies in my office, and all of them suggest that, yes, Lincoln was freakishly strong. But I'm trying to find a particular quote -- I thought it was in Oates -- in which Grant (or maybe John Reynolds, who was, perhaps, an even better general and bigger badass than Grant) said that Lincoln was by far the strongest man he had ever met.


Posted by: Ari | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 3:44 PM
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248: Wait, you needed Eric to do that for you? You have working fingers, right? It's not like he unearthed the Dead Sea Scrolls.


Posted by: Ari | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 3:47 PM
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248: Judging entirely by the number of words on the page, since I didn't read either of them, this is a better resource.


Posted by: washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 3:48 PM
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Case closed: "Lincoln arm-wrestled Scalphunter to the death."


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 3:51 PM
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"I would say he was a cross between Venus and Hercules".

In the Nineteenth Century people talked funny sometimes.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 3:51 PM
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Wrestling is extremely patriotic, guys.

Fuck yeah! I mean, they've defended America from foreign peril in every age: from the communist menace of Nikolai Volkoff to the swarthy Arab threat represented by the Iron Sheik and Kama Mustafa


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 3:52 PM
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255: You're my kind of historian, washerdreyer.


Posted by: Ari | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 3:53 PM
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Wait, you needed Eric to do that for you? You have working fingers, right?

Eric's position as gigolo seems to be in jeopardy.


Posted by: peter | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 3:56 PM
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254: Hey, now.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 3:56 PM
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I don't see anything in 247 about how many comes Wilson could take before uncunting.

Fucking Bush White House, keeping relevant facts from the American Public!


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 3:59 PM
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Infinite comes!


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 4:00 PM
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As President, Lincoln was still strong enough to hold an axe, by the end of its handle, with his arm straight out.

Does that make sense?


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 4:01 PM
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As President, Lincoln was still strong enough to hold an axe, by the end of its handle, with his arm straight out.

Does that make sense?


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 4:01 PM
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Anyone else notice the irony that Di Kotimy has yet to show up in this thread? I assume she's busy with work, but I sure would have liked to read her reaction to the NYT story.

Come on out, Di! We don't care if you derail the ongoing discussion of silly historical counterfactuals!


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 4:03 PM
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Lincoln was still strong enough to hold an axe, by the end of its handle, with his arm straight out

Yeah. Have you ever tried that for any length of time, with a hammer, say? That's a well-known hazing technique test of strength.


Posted by: Eric | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 4:03 PM
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Googling Edith + Wilson + nymphomaniac gets nothing.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 4:03 PM
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Also, Hillary Clinton's "massive ass," break me a give. She's got a great ass.

You say these things like they are incompatible.

Racist.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 4:11 PM
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Googling Edith + Bolling + nymphomaniac only gets you a source for etymology of the word "helpmate".

Even replacing "Bolling" with "Balling" doesn't get you much.


Posted by: Fatman | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 4:22 PM
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269: I say those things like I know that Mr. Ogged's intent was to be insulting.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 4:30 PM
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268: I'll see if I can find a source. The only reason I am pretty sure that it is not a figment of my imagination is that I am not clever enough to have come up with "uncunting". (I may have applied to the wrong First Lady though.) The only other (slender) thread of evidence is the "admiration for younger men" phrase in Wikipedia in a paragraph which is clearly either taken originally from (or is the source of) the White House bio that Eric posted.

In 1921, the Wilsons retired to a comfortable home in Washington, where he died three years later. A highly respected figure in the society of the capital, Mrs. Wilson lived on to ride in President Kennedy's inaugural parade. She died later in 1961: on December 28, the anniversary of her famous husband's birth.
In 1921, the Wilsons retired to a comfortable home in northwest Washington, where he died three years later. A highly respected figure in the society of the capital, though rumored to be quite open in her admiration for younger men, Edith Wilson lived on to ride in John F. Kennedy's inaugural parade. She died on the morning of December 28, 1961, the 105th anniversary of her second husband's birth.

Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 4:37 PM
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||
Too funny not to interject
|>


Posted by: TJ | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 5:32 PM
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234: I love that story -- I was planning to tell it if no one else had by the time I finished the thread.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04-18-08 7:13 PM
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266: Indeed, I have only just come across this post today what with being both productive and social for the past several days. It does seem wrong for me to miss this. I can't wait to actually read the whole thread and article, but obviously I will come out firmly in support of the internet trashing of an ex.


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 04-20-08 11:43 AM
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Oh, hardly worth contributing now -- especially given my very weak historical knowledge of first ladies and their sparring prowess -- but...

1. Yes, exceedingly therapeutic to "trash" the ex on a blog. Especially ugly naked exes.

2. Doubly, probably quadrupally healing when totally objective, pseudonymous strangers supportively agree that the ugly naked ex is worthy of scorn and loathing. (Y'all hate him, right? And the ex-friends who had him over for the holidays...?)

3. I might not go so far as "heinous," but putting stuff that dumps responsibility for a divorce on the children up on the internet (or anywhere else the kiddos might stumble upon it) seems irresponsibly cruel. You didn't get divorced because of the kids. maybe dealing with issues related to the kids brought to light your different philosophies/personalities/abilities to deal with difficult situations. But it was those differences, not the kids, that caused the divorce. Maybe I would go so far as "heinous." Take some fucking responsibility.

4. Posting disparaging stuff about your ex that your kids might read and identify as yours is nearly as bad. In most cases, it's better for the munchkins to try to foster their relationship to the other parent, even if he is an evil, despicable piece of crap. It can be tempting to want to poison that, but totally selfish. (a) let them figure it out on their own. And (b) even when they do figure it out, they probably don't want to think about the fact that countless readers know all about what a prick their parent is.

5. The point in the article warning that it's often a mistake to think your blog is both anonymous and has a limited audience is a good one. Sometimes you do have to stop and think whether you'd want to write what you are writing if you thought people might be able to identify the words as yours.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 04-21-08 2:09 PM
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You people should see the youtube video that Di kotimy did about her ex!

Wow. Sure, most people wouldn't have done it drunk as a skunk. And, very few women would have kept such a video up the next morning when they realized that they were only wearing a bra and a skirt when they did the video.

But, that Di Kotimy did!


Posted by: Will | Link to this comment | 04-21-08 2:17 PM
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Way to ignore my invitation to hate on UNG a bit, Will. It's your fault if I don't heal.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 04-21-08 2:21 PM
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UNG is a total idiot.


Posted by: Will | Link to this comment | 04-21-08 2:35 PM
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UNG smells like a toilet filled with rancid butter.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 04-21-08 2:37 PM
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279, 280: Crap, my pseudonymity has been breached -- you guys clearly know UNG personally!

(Mmmmm. Feeling the healing.... )


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 04-21-08 2:59 PM
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UNG has an unfortunate laugh.

UNG is not nearly as tall as he thinks he is.

UNG couldn't find a sharp stick if you poked him in the eye with it.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 04-21-08 3:02 PM
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UNG couldn't find a sharp stick if you poked him in the eye with it.

To be fair, that *would* make it harder.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 04-21-08 3:06 PM
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283: harder to see, maybe; you'd have some other senses tipping you off, I bet.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 04-21-08 3:09 PM
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UNG is a penknife that's powered by clockwork and is heavier than it looks.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 04-21-08 3:13 PM
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282: Okay, that's just eerie...


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 04-21-08 3:13 PM
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UNG's head is so big, he has to step into his shirts.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 04-21-08 3:21 PM
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UNG is exceptionally ugly when naked. Also, his guyness is beyond dispute.

How I hate him!


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 04-21-08 3:24 PM
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UNG's favorite poet is Rod McKuen. He and the former friends meet regularly for a RM study group, since they find it difficult reading.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 04-21-08 3:26 PM
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UNG would never pick you up at the airport or make you a mixtape.*

*Unlike Barack Obama.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 04-21-08 3:28 PM
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290 -- Is that true about Obama? What was on his mixtape. (I know, i know. he's taken.)


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 04-21-08 3:39 PM
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"He asked her please stop quoting Rod McKuen in your postcards /
Can't understand it any more
And if you're gonna read your poetry aloud to me
I'll have to show you to the door"


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 04-21-08 3:43 PM
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291: He totally made you a mixtape. He asked me to hold it for you. I don't want to ruin it, but the first song is "In Your Eyes" and the last song is "Don't You Forget About Me."


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 04-21-08 3:56 PM
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293: I can't tell if you're making fun, also, of the sort of person who would have such a mixtape. So I can't tell if I should be embarrassed when I admit: me. (Although probably "Red Rain" up front.)


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 04-21-08 4:01 PM
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294: OMG never! I am basically demographically ground zero for someone who would have this mixtape. Also, in the car earlier, I drove around the block an extra time so that I could finish listening to "In Between Days."


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 04-21-08 4:04 PM
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295: Ah, good. I think of my taste in music as...questionable. But (why, I couldn't say) I assume you have pretty good taste.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 04-21-08 4:11 PM
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Unfogged has a lot of people with Very Advanced Taste in music. I don't think unfoggeders are snobbish about it, but it nonetheless results in people being exceedingly deferential if they enjoy music that someone else might have heard of.

(Tweety, whose selections are the most obscure to me, is actually one of the most vigilant defenders of Liking The Stuff You Like. The people who like obscure stuff really aren't dicks about it.)


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 04-21-08 4:19 PM
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Tweety ... is actually one of the most vigilant defenders of Liking The Stuff You Like

Except when he's drunk and accuses anyone who listens to non-electronic music of dinosaurism.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 04-21-08 4:21 PM
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Good point.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 04-21-08 4:24 PM
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This! Is! SPARTA!!!!


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 04-21-08 4:26 PM
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Except when he's drunk and accuses anyone who listens to non-electronic music of dinosaurism.

Oh hee. I had forgotten about that. And forgotten that it was Sifu.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 04-21-08 4:33 PM
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