Re: Ok, that's enough discord

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What are you doing that requires you to use Twisted?


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 04-28-08 12:38 PM
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The unfoggedbot "uses" twisted.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 04-28-08 12:44 PM
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That wasn't even the sort of discord I wanted to sow.

Maybe you should post all those cock pictures you collected.

max
['That'll stir something up.']


Posted by: max | Link to this comment | 04-28-08 12:48 PM
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You know, a precursor of Twisted was outlined in a paper by LeĊ›niewski in the 1920s.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 04-28-08 12:49 PM
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I have yet to hear anything good about Twisted. Why does the Unfoggedbot use it?


Posted by: water moccasin | Link to this comment | 04-28-08 12:51 PM
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Shorter Ben: Make the bugs in the jar fight the way that I want them to.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 04-28-08 12:52 PM
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5: I couldn't find anything other python OSCAR implementation. And there was some reason why we didn't use Tom's perl bot. (A bad reason, but a reason.)

I've actually heard some really good things about twisted, but mostly from, IIRC, twisted gurus.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 04-28-08 12:54 PM
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(I'm the only one who uses the ubot, I think, mostly because it's been extremely unreliable, partly because it gets disconnected by bits of the protocol it doesn't undertand—I'm attempting to have it reconnect itself.)


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 04-28-08 12:57 PM
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A good thing: Twisted may be one of the best (if not *the* best) ways of writing concurrent programs today, …


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 04-28-08 12:59 PM
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Since it's not a framework I'm familiar with and Becks has resisted my entreaties to start a two-minute-hate thread, I'll attempt a hijack and say that someone really needs to punch that smug racist pigfucker Daniel Pipe in the neck.


Posted by: snarkout | Link to this comment | 04-28-08 12:59 PM
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Pipes, obvs.


Posted by: snarkout | Link to this comment | 04-28-08 12:59 PM
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Mr. Pipes refers to this new enemy as the "lawful Islamists."

Hey look, the NY Times uses free indirect discourse too!


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 04-28-08 1:01 PM
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Make the bugs in the jar fight the way that I want them to.

I read this and can't help but think, "When tweetle beetles battle with their paddles in a puddle and the puddle's in a bottle, that's called a tweetle beetle puddle paddle battle."


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 04-28-08 1:04 PM
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The sowing discourse thread looks interesting, but it is long, and I'm supposed to be working. Is it worth reading, or should I just grade and move piles of paper around my office?


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 04-28-08 1:05 PM
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I know what you're saying, Ben, but I'm just a sucker for Ashley Judd flicks.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 04-28-08 1:06 PM
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14: Just skip to the end to savor D^2 unloading on the poor guy who showed up trying to defend the entire field of Analytic Philosophy.

Sucker.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 04-28-08 1:09 PM
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14: No, it's not worth reading. You'd be better off moving piles of paper around.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 04-28-08 1:12 PM
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If I owned a sow, I'd name her "Discord." And then I'd feed Daniel Pipes to her.


Posted by: Populuxe | Link to this comment | 04-28-08 1:21 PM
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16: hey, I unloaded on the guy, too.

Geez.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 04-28-08 1:26 PM
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I remember looking at Twisted when I was dabbling with Python. I remember thinking: "Wow! VoIP, IM, HTTP -- this library can do everything!" Then later: "Hm. This library tries to do everything." Later still: "This library does some things, may someday do others, and nobody has written comprehensible documentation for where those boundaries lie."

There were probably many good reasons for not using my Perl bot. I don't know how to write Perl responsibly.

If you're really stuck, I'd suggest trying to adapt the bot to Jabber. There's a good chance that the available Python libraries are better, and there are definitely fewer headaches to be had using that protocol.


Posted by: Tom | Link to this comment | 04-28-08 1:26 PM
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Sorry, Sifu, I saw the tail end of that, but then D^2 showed up with a lorry-load of "cunts,"* and I swooned.

* Actually not, but it's a placeholder for his colorful style of argumentation.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 04-28-08 1:28 PM
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Humans eating pigs isn't kosher. But what about pigs eating humans?


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 04-28-08 1:28 PM
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19: Yes, but D2s ranty trolling really is in a class by itself. Even I have to admit he's a master of the form.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 04-28-08 1:29 PM
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What-ever.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 04-28-08 1:34 PM
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unloading on the poor guy

In the pr0n sense of unloading, sure.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 04-28-08 1:44 PM
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You're totally right. All true juggalos know that ICP is way better than Twiztid.


Posted by: ed bowlinger | Link to this comment | 04-28-08 1:44 PM
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Ben, what sort of discord did you hope to sow? How can we serve you better in the future?


Posted by: Otto von Bisquick | Link to this comment | 04-28-08 1:45 PM
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w-lfs-n sowed discord, but he intended to sow datcord.


Posted by: My Alter Ego | Link to this comment | 04-28-08 1:47 PM
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27: I think he was expecting someone to defend Holbo. But it turns out Holbo was unanimously judged guilty of analytically philosophical wanking in the second degree.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 04-28-08 1:53 PM
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It's too hectic to figure out which of the other threads is the angriest right now. Does anybody want to fight with me about anything here?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 04-28-08 1:58 PM
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Fucking Sox blow.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 04-28-08 2:01 PM
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Get that bike off the road, hippie!


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 04-28-08 2:03 PM
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Facial hair is a sign of moral weakness!


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 04-28-08 2:03 PM
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NOLA should be rebuilt just as it was.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 04-28-08 2:04 PM
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Maybe I'm just argued out. You know what's nice? Everything! You know who I agree with? Everybody!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 04-28-08 2:04 PM
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35: Heebie'sYou're right!


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 04-28-08 2:05 PM
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I have always thought Daniel Pipes very attractive, in a Daniel Day-Lewis kinda way.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 04-28-08 2:10 PM
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For what it's worth, I apologize for joining the fray in that other thread.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 04-28-08 2:19 PM
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I was hoping to sow intranecine blogger discord. But in fact Wife X barely blinked.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 04-28-08 2:25 PM
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You should have come to me for advice, grasshopper.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 04-28-08 2:26 PM
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Maybe I'm just argued out.

"You look bushed, dear. Hard day at commenting?"

And in other should-be-fed-to-the-hogs news, Vox Day's Daddy is being tried on charges of tax evasion, conspiracy and failure to appear in court.


Posted by: Populuxe | Link to this comment | 04-28-08 2:29 PM
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intranecine

Seems like your standards are slipping in several ways.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 04-28-08 2:29 PM
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I think he was expecting someone to defend Holbo. But it turns out Holbo was unanimously judged guilty of analytically philosophical wanking in the second degree.

Hey now! I defended Holbo. Granted, its was a "defense" in much the same sense that defense counsel argues for mitigating circumstances in the penalty phase of a capital murder trial, but still.


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 04-28-08 2:30 PM
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We can argue about what constitutes proper barbecued ribs since someone here seems to think it requires a grill, but is clearly wrong.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 04-28-08 2:32 PM
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I wanted to show how independent I'd grown, ogged. But I failed. I made a mistake when I did go and now I'm dissatisfied. I'll go back to my father's house—I'll fall down on my face.

I'm a little bit scared 'cause I haven't been home in a long time.

I believe I'll go back home, and acknowledge I done wrong.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 04-28-08 2:33 PM
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"intranecine" seems to be a favored mistake of mine.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 04-28-08 2:34 PM
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13 is awesome. I look forward to teaching it to my niece.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 04-28-08 2:35 PM
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44: instead of a smoker, you mean?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 04-28-08 2:35 PM
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45: They have barbecued ribs there, I believe.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 04-28-08 2:36 PM
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46: I was wondering who you were hoping to pit against whom. Becks v. Labs? Ogged v. Ogged? Everyone v. Bob?


Posted by: Otto von Bisquick | Link to this comment | 04-28-08 2:38 PM
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Everyone v. Bob?

Attention! But you probably meant the masthead Bob, and I'm just bein paranoid again.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 04-28-08 2:42 PM
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39: Was this all an elaborate plot to sow discord between the X's and get Wife X for yourself, young Ben?


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 04-28-08 2:54 PM
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1. You are bein' paranoid again.
2. Masthead Bob is Bob, you are bob or mcmanus or bob mcmanus in my idiolect.


Posted by: Otto von Bisquick | Link to this comment | 04-28-08 2:57 PM
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47: It's from Fox in Sox by Dr. Seuss. FYI


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 04-28-08 3:06 PM
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I think bbq has to involve some kind of slow cooking, especially if one wants to eat tender bbq ribs.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 04-28-08 3:10 PM
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We can argue about what constitutes proper barbecued ribs since someone here seems to think it requires a grill, but is clearly wrong.

Hey, can anyone point me to a good site with tips for DIY pit barbecue? In a moment of drunken folly, I agreed to take charge of the pit barbecue for a neighbor's pig* pickin' next weekend. I have a rough idea of how it's done, but I've never tried myself. My reputation as a cook in the neighborhood is impeccable, so I stand to lose face if I screw this up.

*Not really a whole pig; just a shoulder and a couple of slabs of ribs.


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 04-28-08 3:16 PM
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23: Having now read some of that thread, including its rump, it's a huge relief to watch from afar, in casual appreciation, as D2 works. Rather, than, say, being on the business end of his efforts.


Posted by: Ari | Link to this comment | 04-28-08 3:17 PM
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Oops. Extra comma up there. Sorry. (Apology to cover all of the other mistakes I'm sure I made in those two sentences.)


Posted by: Ari | Link to this comment | 04-28-08 3:19 PM
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58: Say 5 Hail Marys and 2 Glory Bes and you will be absolved.


Posted by: Otto von Bisquick | Link to this comment | 04-28-08 3:22 PM
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54: Really? I haven't read Fox in Sox in a long time, and think I had it classed it the very simple "Hop on Pop" category. Damn those Lorax for stealing the spotlight.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 04-28-08 3:25 PM
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57,

I didn't even notice I was being attacked harshly. You should try giving a paper at a philosophy conference someday!


Posted by: analyticphilosopher | Link to this comment | 04-28-08 3:25 PM
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56: Chopper and Armsmasher, on the double! Knecht needs you.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 04-28-08 3:26 PM
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Baby back ribs you can do under the broiler, just turn them frequently. My baby back rib consumption has risen dramatically since getting a stove with a broiler tray.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 04-28-08 3:35 PM
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56: Will it actually be a pit, or just using a traditional grill to approximate?

For the shoulder, it's actually pretty simple: put all the coals on one side of the grill, put the spice-berubbed shoulder on top of a piece of tin foil, fold the foil up to cover the side of shoulder facing the coals. Cover, refreshing coals occasionally (like, a dozen or so briquets every ~30 minutes). Water-soaked wood chips in a multiply-pierced foil packet should sit atop the coals.

This is off the top of my head, but is definitely close enough. You can modify with mops and the like per your regional intentions.

It will not be easy to do the ribs simultaneously; they work basically the same way, but you can skip the foil. If the grill is big enough, you could probably stick a couple slabs between the coals and the shoulder, turning frequently. One trick to conserve space with ribs is to stand them vertically in an inverted V-rack, or similar device.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 04-28-08 3:43 PM
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Oh, to establish my bona fides: Suckling pig, homemade pit.

I actually have more/better pics, but not online.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 04-28-08 3:46 PM
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Hop on Pop taught my children to jump on me.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 04-28-08 3:47 PM
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My take was that analyticphilosopher was successful in defending analytic philosophy, and D-squared was successful in heaping abuse on him for doing it. So everyone went home happy!


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 04-28-08 3:51 PM
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rob, don't listen to these reprobates who hate the life of the mind. The discord thread was awesome. I even downloaded an analytical philosophy paper better to figure out who pwned who.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 04-28-08 3:54 PM
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66: Is taking Fox in Sox too literally how they handed up with only 8 1/2 fingers apiece?


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 04-28-08 3:54 PM
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Jonathan defended Holbo on essentially the level that Ben was attacking him. He at least argued that Holbo's deployment of passive-aggressivity was appropriate ("earned") in context.


Posted by: Zippy the Comment Frog | Link to this comment | 04-28-08 6:12 PM
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Will it actually be a pit, or just using a traditional grill to approximate?

It will be a pit. I've done both shoulder and ribs on the grill before, so I am familiar with the basics. This time I'm actually digging a hole and putting rocks in it. I have one of those probe-style meat thermometers that's attached to a long wire, so I plan to bury it inside the shoulder to be able to take above ground temperature readings. My questions are mostly along the lines of:

- rocks just on the bottom of the pit, or on top of the coals as well?
- what fuel to use? Wood fire coals? Charcoal briquettes?
- what to put on top of the coals? Wet wood chips? Cordwood?
- what to put on top of the meat before covering it with dirt? Wet burlap?
- how long can I expect it to take to cook? Same as in a low grill / low oven? Longer?


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 04-28-08 9:21 PM
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PGD, I invite you to consider that AP might not be a dude.


Posted by: alameida | Link to this comment | 04-29-08 4:00 AM
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alameida is it sexist to imagine that no woman could be that thin-skinned and defensive about the field? I argue no.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 04-29-08 6:13 AM
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AP is apparently nymous to some of us. Not me, though.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 04-29-08 6:27 AM
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I took the fact that AP took offense at being assumed to be a man as evidence that AP was, in fact, a man.


Posted by: Zippy the Comment Frog | Link to this comment | 04-29-08 8:37 AM
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Knecht-

TBH, I don't think it's worth burying a shoulder and some ribs. They cook well enough on a grill (as you apparently know), and the benefit of the pit - extremely steady, low, smoky heat - are overkill for these cuts. At least get a fresh ham (the whole one that weighs ~15 lbs).

That said - charcoal briquets, soaked chunks (not chips, but fist-sized chunks), banana leaves if possible (Asian stores should have them frozen), and it will take for-fucking-ever to cook. I'm not sure if you need rocks beneath the coals - if you dig down and the soil has even a little clay, I'd think rocks would be redundant, esp. for such a small amount of meat. If the soil is loose, then you don't want it smothering the coals, so go ahead and use rocks.

At least that's my take on it.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 04-29-08 8:38 AM
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62: I don't know a blamed thing about pit barbecue--I've been told it absolutely kills the soil in which it's done, and I'm not willing to have a dead patch in my lawn. It sounds like JRoth has it covered. My only advice, which may be teach KR's grandma to suck eggs, is that he should brine the meat for a significant chunk of time, then let it air dry prior to rub/cooking.


Posted by: Chopper | Link to this comment | 04-29-08 9:11 AM
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Teaching, obvs.

I think we'll be buying another whole pig relatively soon, so I should have lots of stuff to write about on my blog about pork-related activities, including barbecue, but I haven't even had the time to write the post on The Omnivore's Dilemna (the whole impetus for my locavore/blog project), so we'll see.


Posted by: Chopper | Link to this comment | 04-29-08 9:17 AM
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I don't want to re-ignite anything, but I spent a good hour on this before noticing that the thread was closed, and I'll be goddamned if I let ogged deny you the benefit of my wisdom, though on present evidence you don't need it. So:-

Okay, I'm gonna go all Barack on you now. I want to understand you all and bring you together. Each side feels that their perspective has been misrepresented and/or disrespected, and that they don't deserve it. And each side is right. On each side there is a widespread gut-level tendency to fail to comprehend the go of the others' mode of doing philosophy.

The value of analytic philosophy doesn't lie in its being entertaining, or in leading to technological outcomes, nor in 'solved problems'. Like any philosophy, it lies in being illuminating . You investigate various ways of looking at the issues, and even if you don't come to any definitive conclusions you find yourself having lived with various more or less illuminating sets of concepts, which is interesting .

Now when outsiders ask about a given discipline why they should care whether it lives or dies, why it should be considered interesting, it's rare to be able to give an answer that will be compelling to people whose being doesn't naturally resonate in sympathy with the discipline in question. Science and mathematics can do it because of the toaster ovens. More swashbuckling modes of philosophy have it easier in this respect than analytic philosophy precisely because non-experts do naturally respond to the implicit promise of some sort of 'human significance'. The thing about analytic philosophy is that it too makes this implicit promise, but doesn't like to talk about it.

All philosophy does and should proceed, a rortiori , via a dialectic between the technical on the one hand and the 'significant', 'world-disclosing', or whatever, on the other. Often within the same philosopher. Even the echt world-disclosing kinda guy, say, Heidegger, will usually be heavily invested in some sort of technicality. And conversely technical philosophy will never be merely technical; whatever its self-image, it always has one eye on the big picture - otherwise it ceases to be philosophy. World-disclosure without problem-solving is empty, problem-solving without world-disclosure is blind.

I think the real charge being made here against analytic philosophy, when it's accused of being sclerotic and hermetically enclosed, is "Why is this interesting? Where's the world-disclosure?". Those analytic philosophers (probably not you, ap) who claim that they are just rigorously solving problems, and deny that they are invested in any such kitschy grand projects, don't help matters. The claims to unique levels of rigor are perceived as being not all that well-founded, and hence intended disingenuously, to denigrate other modes of philosophy. But what's worth pointing out is that even if the claims to special rigor are false, it doesn't mean that analytic philosophy is worthless, just that it has a distorted self-image, because it still has the repressed world-disclosing moment at work within it.

But, as ap has I think been trying to say, the real high-water mark of analytic philosophical insularity and triumphalism passed decades ago. There are well-known people in the analytic tradition interested in Heidegger and Foucault, as has been pointed out. Sure, they "translate what you've said into their own language, whereupon it immediately means something different" (some love for you there, John Emerson), but sometimes there's a payoff to that. I don't think ap was trying to say "we're doing good work, therefore you all suck", but merely "we're doing good work". The more aggressive reading was perhaps understandable, though, because others sometimes do intend the inference.

Anyway, go now, my children. You're all beautiful people. Love one another. Aww... group hug.



Posted by: Amit | Link to this comment | 04-30-08 8:25 PM
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Anyone who responds to Amit will have his comment deleted. Seriously.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 04-30-08 8:38 PM
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Don't get cute, either.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 04-30-08 8:41 PM
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I'll be damned, he'll really do it.

Censorship is wrong, Ben.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 04-30-08 8:48 PM
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And yet it feels so, so right.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 04-30-08 8:49 PM
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i thought 'his' meant Amit's, that would be really really unfair
what about female commenter's comments?


Posted by: read | Link to this comment | 04-30-08 8:50 PM
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At least one deleted comment was not a response to Amit.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 04-30-08 8:50 PM
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I had to show that I'm an unstable motherfucker, who, despite beinga motherfucker, is not to be fucked with.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 04-30-08 8:52 PM
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Well, sure. Who doesn't want a "shut up!" button?

See the Dante thread, though. Censoring hilarity like my now-deleted comment is a venial sin at least.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 04-30-08 8:52 PM
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OH NO BEN IS ABUSING HIS POWER LET US RISE UP AGAINST HIM.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 04-30-08 8:53 PM
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But you deleted a link to a dog and a cat posing like they're fighting! Monster.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 04-30-08 8:56 PM
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88: are you sure "HIM" is right? let's not be hasty.


Posted by: peter | Link to this comment | 04-30-08 8:59 PM
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I am NOT responding to his comment!


Posted by: O H Lee | Link to this comment | 04-30-08 9:16 PM
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i don't play like this, boo!


Posted by: read | Link to this comment | 04-30-08 9:27 PM
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Yeah! Boo! Boo!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 04-30-08 9:30 PM
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Attica! Attica!


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 04-30-08 9:31 PM
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