Re: Protect and defend

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should be warned that I will throw heavy anthologies cumbersome analogies at them

Fixed that for you.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 12:49 PM
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California State University officials say they were simply following the law and did not discriminate against Gonaver because all employees are required to sign the oath.

This seems relevant, though.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 12:50 PM
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This seems relevant, though.

In that it's a system-wide problem rather than one excessively nationalistic administrator, sure, but that's not particularly encouraging.


Posted by: Matt F | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 12:53 PM
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I thought this was definitively settled by the Supreme Court 40 years ago. Bizzaro. As much as I like to see harmless pacifist sects persecuted, this seems over the line.


Posted by: baa | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 12:55 PM
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3: It seems like a state law problem that impacts academic freedom, and which the professors manfully haven't addressed, but not an issue of the UC system's understanding of academic freedom.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 12:56 PM
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I don't know if this will bring bad press to Fullerton. Loyalty oaths are popular in the US. We make little kids and public officials recite the Pledge of Allegiance all the time, and honestly, giving your allegiance to a flag is far more offensive to me than pledging to defend the constitution.

The effect of stories like this is the increase the sense that there are dangerous traitors in our midst, and all efforts are justified in routing them out, no matter what their constitutional status. "Silence her! she will not pledge to protect the right of all to speak freely!"


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 12:56 PM
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"Silence her! she will not pledge to protect the right of all to speak freely!"


This is one of the many bizarre and impressive disconnects between `American ideals ' and actual practice.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 12:58 PM
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The loyalty oath was actually a compromise. The original proposal would have required tenure-track faculty to raise a German shepherd pup for several months, then strangle it in front of the provost.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 12:59 PM
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I like that Gonaver is a "Quaker from Pennsylvania." The real kind of Quaker, so we know she's not faking.


Posted by: Bave Dee | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 12:59 PM
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Also, I'm not favorably disposed towards her, given the associated picture. I wonder if there's more to the story.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 1:00 PM
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2: No, they're not simply following the law. As I understand it, a prior court challenge established that people could amend the oath with their own statement and still satisfy the requirements of the law. Cal State (or maybe just Fullerton?) is requiring more than the law requires.

I can't imagine this survives a court challenge.


Posted by: potchkeh | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 1:02 PM
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The American Studies department has no need for someone with such an inaccurate view of what life in America ought to constitute.


Posted by: Ardent reader | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 1:04 PM
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given the associated picture

Say more...

make little kids and public officials recite the Pledge of Allegiance all the time

Little kids I see the problem. Public officials not so much. But then I'm kind of on board with the whole nationalism project. You should obviously give people religious principled objections. But if the concept of pledging allegiance and God Bless America in the 7th inning seems fine by me. If you don't like it, as Homer Simpson says, move to Russia.


Posted by: baa | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 1:04 PM
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We make little kids and public officials recite the Pledge of Allegiance all the time, and honestly, giving your allegiance to a flag is far more offensive to me than pledging to defend the constitution.

Ah, reminds me of the time in a first amendment class when a big chunk of the class started shouting in opposition as I presented a paper I wrote arguing that school-sponsored recitation of the pledge is a coercive act. Good times.


Posted by: Matt F | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 1:05 PM
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America in the 7th inning seems fine by me. If you don't like it, as Homer Simpson says, move to Russia.

It's amazing how much mileage an argument this stupid gets.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 1:07 PM
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13: God Bless America is (a) a terrible song, (b) expresses a religious sentiment I find meaningless and, insofar as it isn't meaningless, offensive. It's also not a goddamned tradition. Neither is "Under God" in the pledge of allegiance, for that matter. Hell with both of 'em.

14: that's hilarious.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 1:08 PM
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If you don't like it ... move to Russia.

In United States, Russia move to you !!


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 1:08 PM
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But if the concept of pledging allegiance and God Bless America in the 7th inning seems fine by me. If you don't like it, as Homer Simpson says, move to Russia.

This knife-edge-of-irony stuff is trolling of the highest order.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 1:09 PM
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I applied for a Hertz fellowship in grad school which has this little quirk. Sadly it wasn't an issue since I didn't get the fellowship- I knew how to explain the workings of NMR but at the time I didn't know the Monty Hall problem and got it wrong.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 1:10 PM
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13: Submissive posture, framed by shadow bars. It's not like the she fell and photographer just snapped that picture. She had to participate. WTF? How much use was she going to be in protecting our freedoms, anyway?

Obviously, she shouldn't have to sign the damn oath, and I hope she gets the job. It would be nice if the professors pushed the state to remove the oath requirement, though.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 1:10 PM
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18: Petey really ought to take notes.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 1:12 PM
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It's amazing how much mileage an argument this stupid gets.

I'm totally with it. The mistake is to surrender it--as liberals/Dems have--to the other side.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 1:13 PM
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8: I was just talking about the puppy story with a friend of mine. I've encountered that story several times, but have found nothing in the relevant literature to support it.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 1:14 PM
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22: I often tell my Blue State Republican brother that if he thinks conservatism is so great, he ought to move to Mississippi.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 1:15 PM
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I had to sign one of these at Sunny State, despite not being a US citizen. I asked my dept manager about it and she said the easiest thing to do was to sign and hope my home country never invaded America.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 1:15 PM
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20: y'know, having had my picture taken by photographers who thought they were being arty, it's often not easy to figure out if it's a good idea or they're playing you somehow.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 1:16 PM
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Submissive posture, framed by shadow bars.

Submissive to the Lord, my friend - don't you know a subliminal cross when you see it?


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 1:17 PM
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I think in CA these oaths have their origins in areagan's efforts to fire or prevent the hiring of Angela Davis and Herbert Marcuse in the 60s.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 1:18 PM
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it's often not easy to figure out if it's a good idea or they're playing you somehow.

Ditto.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 1:18 PM
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23: You might start here, Flip.

hope my home country never invaded America.

That would be awesome. I could be put in an internment camp, along with countless millions of other Irish-Americans!


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 1:18 PM
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If you don't like it, as Homer Simpson says, move to Russia.

Barney Gumble says "Go back to Russia," re Lisa's attempt to serve gazpacho ("It's tomato soup, served ice cold!) at a B.B.B.Q in one episode, but I don't recall Homer saying that. Google informs me that Homer expresses that sentiment in Treehouse of Horror II, but doesn't provide any context. Anyone remember?


Posted by: washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 1:19 PM
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(Whatever the appropriate threadjack sign is here)

So I find myself with an unexpected three hours in the MSP airport. Recommendations?

(Play on)


Posted by: Aaron Burr | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 1:19 PM
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It's kind of depressing that all conservatives had to do to appropriate The Simpsons was be too stupid to get the jokes.


Posted by: strasmangelo jones | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 1:20 PM
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AKA Southie.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 1:20 PM
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RFTS is really Hannah Montana.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 1:21 PM
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34 to 30 obvs. Christ this talk is boring.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 1:21 PM
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Ditto to Sifu's 16.1.

baa, if it's not appropriate to coerce little kids, why is it appropriate to coerce adults? And don't tell me we don't coerce adults. To most Americans, refusing to say the pledge is probably worse than being a queer Muslim vegetarian shouting "fire!" in a crowded theater. No one should have to withstand that kind of pressure over something that is both trivial and a profound matter of principle.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 1:21 PM
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Recommendations?

I recommend that you explain, in as vague terms as you feel neccessary, why your presence in and/or future absence from Minneapolis-St. Paul could possibly require more anonymity than however you usually post.


Posted by: washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 1:23 PM
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I would have thought that this had been settled a long time ago. Maybe it was in Albion's Seed or one of Daniel Boorstin's book where I read that Quakers won't swear any kind of oath, but that a work-around had been set up.


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 1:23 PM
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32: Get your shoes shined so they'll look better under the stall wall?


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 1:24 PM
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stick your foot under an adjoining toilet stall of course.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 1:24 PM
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pwnd.

This talk continues boring, which given the topic should be impossible.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 1:25 PM
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Philip Dick's papers are at Cal Fullerton. This is just the sort of thing he'd have expected of the government, of course, but he'd have shit an absolute brick over it, too. All in all, I'd say that Gonaver will be lucky not to wake up and discover that she's only a robot built to serve Arnold Schwarzenegger.


Posted by: Populuxe | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 1:26 PM
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Wait, did John Yoo sign this oath for his appointment at Berkeley? If so, isn't his attack on the US Constitution grounds for firing?


Posted by: Alex F | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 1:26 PM
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Google informs me that Homer expresses that sentiment in Treehouse of Horror II, but doesn't provide any context. Anyone remember?

I think it's in the Halloween episode, when a newscaster is making some joke about "The scariest day of the year is coming up...heh, heh, Election Day!" and Homer says "Hey, if you don't like it, go to Russia."

There's also the one where he yells "Go back to Massachusetts!" at Sideshow Bob when the latter proposes banning television.

Geez, I have seen these episodes way, way too many times. I put them on to go to sleep by, during college. (I guess that was a waste of electricity...but it was hard to get to sleep sometimes)


Posted by: Ardent reader | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 1:26 PM
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32: Also, isn't the answer to spare time in an airport always to drink?


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 1:26 PM
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Also, isn't the answer to spare time in an airport always to drink?

Yeah, but that's the answer to most problems.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 1:28 PM
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32: For shame, Aaron Burr. A threadjack is a total misuse of the "pause/play" symbols, which imply that an off-topic comment has been inserted into the flow of conversation but the preexisting conversational threads flow on. An explicit attempt at a threadjack, on the other hand, is essentially a pause without a play on the other side: one stream has ended and another has begun.


Posted by: strasmangelo jones | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 1:28 PM
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Quaker from Pennsylvania

Relevant, insofar as she's from a state with a longstanding tradition of allowing Quakers to affirm (rather than swear) on oaths from everything from jury duty to notarized documents. I don't know a thing about this woman or her situation, but she may have thought CA had provisions similar to PA's.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 1:28 PM
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37: in retrospect, baa was trolling insincerely but amusingly, and la la la I don't care la la la driving my car making this comment la la la bicycles are stupid la la la hooray for Joe Francis doot dee doo can't hear you (open manhole)

36: they've taken over the rest of the town, man, you wouldn't believe it. Dirty, potato eatin' hordes of the bl....

Oh. Oh, I am sorry.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 1:28 PM
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MSP: Get lunch (or whatever meal is appropriate) at the French Meadow Cafe in Concourse F. It's pretty good, and not just "for airport food".


Posted by: Nathan Williams | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 1:29 PM
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Tim is right though. Someone who comes out in favor of loyalty oaths, and you should explain to them gently and patronizingly that they completely failed to understand what it means to be an American, but you were sure there were many country that would be happy to have them.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 1:29 PM
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Minneapolis: Downtown is 20 minutes by light rail from the airport for a couple bucks, but I don't know what's downtown.

26: We want to see adorable artsy pictures of our Sifu.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 1:29 PM
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I often tell my Blue State Republican brother that if he thinks conservatism is so great, he ought to move to Mississippi.

Exactly. "Don't like it, GTFO" is surprisingly effective as rhetoric. Which is sort of the point.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 1:30 PM
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48: to stand athwart the thread, yelling "listen to meeeee!"


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 1:30 PM
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Wait, did John Yoo sign this oath for his appointment at Berkeley? If so, isn't his attack on the US Constitution grounds for firing?

You can only attack the Constitution if you're a commie, a hippie or a peacenik, Alex.


Posted by: strasmangelo jones | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 1:30 PM
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Look, I just watched all ten hours of Carrier and so I have the legal and moral authority to tell SKraab to stand for the damn flag. Ingrates. I have relatives who served, you know. How would this make them feel?


Posted by: FL | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 1:30 PM
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It's ok, in illiterate.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 1:30 PM
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Submissive posture, framed by shadow bars.

Somewhat irksome, I grant. But when in doubt blame the photographer.

knife-edge-of-irony stuff is trolling of the highest order

I live to please.

I think it's in the Halloween episode, when a newscaster is making some joke about "The scariest day of the year is coming up...heh, heh, Election Day!" and Homer says "Hey, if you don't like it, go to Russia."

Bingo! Also, in the vegetarian episode "Go back to Russia" is Barney's response to being offered gazspacho.


Posted by: baa | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 1:32 PM
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just watched all ten hours of Carrier

Pretty awesome, no. But (shockingly) almost on the edge of a Navy commercial at times...

baa was trolling insincerely but amusingly

Yes! I feel understood. I hoped it was obvious enough so as to not really count as trolling...


Posted by: baa | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 1:35 PM
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I think it's more his response to the very concept of gazpacho, after Lisa explains what it is.


Posted by: Ardent reader | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 1:35 PM
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having had my picture taken by photographers who thought they were being arty, it's often not easy to figure out if it's a good idea or they're playing you somehow.

Mapplethorpe, right?


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 1:35 PM
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It's like you didn't even read my comment. Since if you did, you'd know how to spell gazpacho.


Posted by: washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 1:36 PM
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I lied: I missed hours 7 & 8. Baa, do you want to enlist together? We could be like that wisecracking gay couple.


Posted by: FL | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 1:36 PM
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the concept of pledging allegiance and God Bless America in the 7th inning seems fine by me

I'd prefer that the president say, John Houseman-like, "We get respect the old-fashioned way. We earn it."


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 1:37 PM
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53: But which one am I?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 1:37 PM
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64: Is one of you tall, thin and erudite, and the other short, dumpy and foul-mouthed? Are one, but not both, of you gay?

It's harder and harder to make a sitcom these days. Everything has to be right for it to work.


Posted by: Ardent reader | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 1:38 PM
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66: The one in the bad hat?


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 1:38 PM
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57: My dad, former Lt. J.G. on the carrier Tarawa is ok with it, thanks.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 1:39 PM
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66: From what Hollywood has told me, the only people in that picture who are actually hackers are the guy with scary facial hair and sunglasses, the fat guy with the Mighty Mouse shirt and sunglasses, and the sexy yet androgynous girl with dyed hair.


Posted by: Ardent reader | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 1:39 PM
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Does Cal State-Fullerton not have any instructors who are not U.S. citizens? Are citizens of foreign countries really required to declare allegiance to the U.S. and California constitutions?


Posted by: My Alter Ego | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 1:40 PM
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60: Don't stop now. We're trying to make this more interesting for Goneril!


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 1:40 PM
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Teachers in NY have to sign a form promising to uphold the state and federal constitution. I signed it. We all had to and we're all notorious radicals in my funky school.

I uphold you, Constitution! Hooray!


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 1:40 PM
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Also, Sifu, if there is anyjustice in the worldone paying attention at the helm, you've just provided the picture for the next UnfoggedCon.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 1:40 PM
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64: Is one of you tall, thin and erudite, and the other short, dumpy and foul-mouthed?

You know, this is getting pretty close to the mark. Make the tall one painfully handsome as well as virtuous, and you've got it.


Posted by: FL | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 1:40 PM
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66: Tell me you're the dyed-blond chick, Tweety. Otherwise I don't want to know.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 1:41 PM
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72: That, and I'm trying to procrastinate the afternoon away, and the gruel is a bit thin here today.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 1:42 PM
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It's like you didn't even read my comment

Totally my bad, washer! That's a top shelf episode.


Posted by: baa | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 1:42 PM
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The other guy with scary facial hair is probably a "gearhead", given the flame decals on his jacket. The kid on the left with the knit cap is a skater. The guy at the top right is the romantic lead who is deceptively brilliant and therefore can translate between the hackers and the normal actor-looking people.

Most of the others are either nerds or geeks but not actually hackers. Hackers have to be totally awesome.

I don't know what to make of the guy in the middle with his hand on his face. Were "New Romantics" still around at that time?


Posted by: Ardent reader | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 1:43 PM
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71: yes, I had to sign, even as a non citizen.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 1:43 PM
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28

"I think in CA these oaths have their origins in areagan's efforts to fire or prevent the hiring of Angela Davis and Herbert Marcuse in the 60s."

It is amazing the things Reagan gets credit for. Very farsighted of him to to get this added to the California Constitution in 1952.


Posted by: James B. Shearer | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 1:43 PM
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"With the exception of Article VII, para. 1.a, Article XIV, para. 3.c, and Article XVII, paras. 4-6, I hereby swear to uphold and protect the Constitution of the State of California."


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 1:44 PM
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this is getting pretty close to the mark.

Ouch!


Posted by: baa | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 1:44 PM
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37: I could actually get behind making some kind of oath required for being a public official, just like a private employee might require you to certify that you've read the employee handbook or watched an orientation video. An oath to the constitution would be useless if no one in the upper levels of government would be interested in enforcing it, like today, but it's possible to imagine legitimate purposes. Obviously, that doesn't apply at all to the bitch in the story in your link, no offense intended to Dr. B.


Posted by: Cyrus | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 1:45 PM
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70 and 79, with their combination of hilarious accuracy and hilarious inaccuracy -- but almost nothing in between -- are totally cracking me up.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 1:46 PM
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Baa, we've discussed your potty mouth here before. You know how it violates community standards.


Posted by: FL | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 1:46 PM
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66: For all the guys in that picture, the chick looks unsatisfied.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 1:46 PM
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81: hence my lack of certainty in the original comment.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 1:46 PM
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74: Sexist.

74: Racist.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 1:46 PM
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For all the guys in that picture, the chick looks unsatisfied.

please, JE. They're programmers.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 1:47 PM
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yes, I had to sign, even as a non citizen

That is insane.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 1:48 PM
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91: It's ok, fingers were crossed.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 1:48 PM
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y'know, having had my picture taken by photographers who thought they were being arty, it's often not easy to figure out if it's a good idea or they're playing you somehow.

Is that your excuse for the moustache pic?


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 1:48 PM
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"What does a girl have to do around here to get laid?"


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 1:49 PM
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94: Well, she does appear to be laid across the others. But then again, so is Sifu there at the top of the sofa.


Posted by: Ardent reader | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 1:51 PM
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"I'm willing to trade my body for sex, but these guys want something else and I don't know what it is".


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 1:51 PM
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84: the bitch in the story

?


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 1:53 PM
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The one who told you she wished you nothing but bad luck. I'm answering for ardent because I was temporarily confused by it too.


Posted by: washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 1:55 PM
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98, ardent? That was Cyrus.


Posted by: Ardent reader | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 1:56 PM
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Sorry for the anonymity, it was left in the iPhone and I forgot to change it.

I've relocated to the French Meadow Bakery, which is really quite good. If any of you are making a connection, I'm the chap in the knickers and three-cornered hat, tucking into a turkey & feta quesadilla and organic lager.


Posted by: Aaron Burr | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 1:58 PM
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99: Good point.


Posted by: washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 2:00 PM
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Ah. I was too lazy to look back and see that 37 was mine, so I thought Cyrus was talking about the professor. That'll teach me.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 2:00 PM
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The French Meadow Cafe/Bar is definitely the way to go in MSP. Don't bother going to the other French Meadow--make sure you go to the one with a bar. The potato wedges come with this awesome feta(?) dip, and they've got some outstanding beers on tap.


Posted by: Chopper | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 2:01 PM
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Crossposted, but there you go. Now I want a ber and potato wedges.


Posted by: Chopper | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 2:01 PM
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54
Exactly. "Don't like it, GTFO" is surprisingly effective as rhetoric. Which is sort of the point.

Effective, as retorts go, but I don't think it could ever serve the left as well as the right because it's inherently conservative.


Posted by: Cyrus | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 2:04 PM
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I'm sure this'll come as a shock, but there's no way I'd sign an oath to "protect and defend the Constitution," especially if it mentioned anything about "enemies foreign and domestic." That shit's fucked up. And so, of course, is the fucking Constitution, a centuries-old and outdated document establishing as rigged a system as there's ever been in this country and zealously guarded by the cult of necrophiliac ancestor worship at the heart of our judicial system.


Posted by: strasmangelo jones | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 2:04 PM
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||
slow friday. At this rate, I may have to resort to doing work
|>


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 2:04 PM
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Fontana is back! Except for that brief appearance you made as "Analytic Philosopher", we really missed you!


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 2:05 PM
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Pretty awesome, no. But (shockingly) almost on the edge of a Navy commercial at times...

I haven't watched the last two episodes, but my god the first couple depressed the hell out of me. It's not like the majority of those kids are gonna end up using their G.I. Bill benefits. And the girl who went in because she wanted to be a chef? Oy.


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 2:06 PM
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Effective, as retorts go, but I don't think it could ever serve the left as well as the right because it's inherently conservative.

I don't know how "left," "right," or "conservative," are being define there, but I think that's wrong.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 2:07 PM
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And so, of course, is the fucking Constitution, a centuries-old and outdated document establishing as rigged a system as there's ever been in this country and zealously guarded by the cult of necrophiliac ancestor worship at the heart of our judicial system.

Yeah, fuck that whole "14th Amendment" bullshit!


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 2:07 PM
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The feta dip is awesome.

And I have a soft spot in my heart for the cheesy "Northern Lights Bar & Grill" here - met a girl there about a year ago that I ended up dating for a while.


Posted by: Aaron Burr | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 2:08 PM
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98: LOL, yes, thanks.


Posted by: Cyrus | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 2:09 PM
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And the girl who went in because she wanted to be a chef? Oy.

See, this is why the CIA needs recruitment booths.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 2:09 PM
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Yeah, fuck that whole "14th Amendment" bullshit!

Yeah, because the only thing in the United States Constitution is the Fourteenth Amendment.


Posted by: strasmangelo jones | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 2:13 PM
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OT: Did people see this? Where's Petey? Has he skulked back to his lair beneath the bridge?


Posted by: Ari | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 2:13 PM
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Sorry, not only OT but also the wrong thread. Nap time.


Posted by: Ari | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 2:14 PM
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Link not work, Ari.


Posted by: strasmangelo jones | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 2:14 PM
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110
I don't know how "left," "right," or "conservative," are being define there, but I think that's wrong.

I'm using it in the political sense somewhat, but more in the generic sense of "resistant to change." "If you don't like it, as Homer Simpson says, move to Russia" -- what does it mean, exactly? Instead of trying to fix the supposed injustice or whatever the subject is, just leave. People should assimilate or emigrate. That isn't a progressive or liberal way of thinking, again speaking in both the generic and political senses of the terms.


Posted by: Cyrus | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 2:17 PM
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118: But Clinton's such a great Democrat... I needed to share.


Posted by: Ari | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 2:19 PM
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I fear I am losing my mind. I've been poking around line to find the text of whatever this oath is that I remember signing and I can find nothing at all. I don't teach at a public institution either, so this would be a pretty serious state law. I remember the form being passed around at an orientation and I remember everyone going uh . . . and then "fuck it." I can't really have hallucinated this, can I?


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 2:33 PM
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1. My hat is infinitely awesomer than a sorting hat. Don't make me post another picture.

2. I don't think this is about Quakers not wanting to swear oaths; the California loyalty oath allows you to "affirm."

3. I agree with Tim, not the best picture on balance.

4. I signed the oath without qualm or hesitation. I previously signed, also without qualm or hesitation, the Nevada one, referenced here, which dated from the state's founding during the Civil War. I did not think about the argument that appears below in point 8.

5. I think really to object to the oath as a pacifist, you have to go beyond being a pacifist to being an absolutist conscientious objector (I have a doctoral student working on this subject now)--i.e., historically many pacifists were able to "support and defend" by doing non-combatant work in wartime; only absolutists refused even to, say, rake government lawns.

6. Partly for the reason in 5 I don't think its true that "The way it's laid out, a noncitizen member of Al Qaeda could work for the university, but not a citizen Quaker." I say "partly" because I think it's silly to suggest an Al Qaeda supporter could sign this oath without mental reservation etc.

7. SCotUS seems to have upheld such oaths.

8. For the AAUP, Fritz Machlup wrote,

Even the least dangerous of oaths required of academic teachers, the oath to support--though not necessarily to believe in--the constitution, is on principle inconsistent with real freedom of teaching, especially because the meaning of "supporting" is not unambiguous.... These oaths to support the Constitution can become acutely dangerous to academic freedom when they are construed as giving to "the governing boards of executives of colleges and universities a quasi-legal ground for dismissing any teacher whose political opinions, affiliations, or activities are regarded by those officials as inconsistent with 'support for the Constitution'--in any sense which they may put upon this equivocal expression."



Posted by: Eric | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 2:40 PM
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I'm using it in the political sense somewhat, but more in the generic sense of "resistant to change."

Let me recast "resistant to change" as "respectful of tradition." I think our points of disagreement are likely to be: (a) how many traditions there are in the US, and (b) to what extent people can do anything but reflect mixtures of different traditions.

Instead of trying to fix the supposed injustice or whatever the subject is

I would say that there's a pretty proud tradition of trying to fix injustice in the US.

what does it mean, exactly

I don't know that that it's intended to mean anything. It's meant to shut the other side up, which it often does quite effectively. The trick is to define your own beliefs as the relevant tradition.

People should assimilate or emigrate.

I'm not sure how different a statement it is than "Pick a side," which doesn't seem damaging, everywhere, to progressive causes.

I should note that I'm a fairly centrist Dem, so I may be more comfortable with incremental change (as opposed to radical change) than you are.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 2:43 PM
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"Analytic Philosopher"

Crap. One 'c' away from combining the two to make 'Prophylactic'.


Posted by: asl | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 2:44 PM
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." I say "partly" because I think it's silly to suggest an Al Qaeda supporter could sign this oath without mental reservation etc.

Mental reservation clauses are meaningless.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 2:54 PM
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Mental reservation clauses are meaningless.

Because it's like saying, "no crossing your fingers!"?


Posted by: Eric | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 2:56 PM
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126: Always assume w-lfs-n's being a little bitch. I assume it's some sentence structure issue, though I can't see it.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 2:59 PM
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Carrier is really good. But man, some of those people have fucked up starts in life. In 9 or 10, a Marine talks about his carny parents up and leaving the carnival one day, taking his sister but leaving his 3 year old self behind. Some guy named Uncle Eddie took care of him for a while.


Posted by: Annie | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 2:59 PM
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Always assume w-lfs-n's being a little bitch. I assume it's some sentence structure issue, though I can't see it.

No, it's that you can't, on pain of infinite regress, make a rule commanding someone to follow rules.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 3:02 PM
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What is a mental reservation clause?


Posted by: baa | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 3:06 PM
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123
I would say that there's a pretty proud tradition of trying to fix injustice in the US.

Right. And "go to Russia"/"love it or leave it"/whatever statements are used to shut down trying to fix injustice. Forgive the analogy, but after the civil unions law was passed in Vermont, the hick loggers in flannel were telling the happy gay couples from Massachusetts to go back where they came from, not the other way around. In fact, it would have been absurd if it had been the other way around.

I dunno, I agree with you that the actual content of the retort isn't that important, and there's no reason it couldn't be used the way you say. I'm just saying that to the extent the words are important, they're conservative words.


Posted by: Cyrus | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 3:06 PM
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you can't, on pain of infinite regress, make a rule commanding someone to follow rules

The Constitution contains a similarly meaningless stipulation in Article V, which explains how to amend the Constitution. It says you can use it for any amendment except

that no Amendment which may be made prior to the Year One thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any Manner affect the first and fourth Clauses in the Ninth Section of the first Article; and that no State, without its Consent, shall be deprived of its equal Suffrage in the Senate.

Now, this seems silly to me, because the amending power could be used to amend this part of Article V, then you could use it to Amend those protected parts of the Constitution.

But even if it is silly, I support it.


Posted by: Eric | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 3:06 PM
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What is a mental reservation clause?

You can't fool me, there's no such thing as a sanity clause.


Posted by: Eric | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 3:07 PM
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Whether Article V is amendable using Article V processes is an unsettled question. It's a silly unsettled question, perhaps, but there's scholarly discussion of whether any part of the Constitution is itself unamendable.


Posted by: washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 3:09 PM
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on pain of infinite regress

The U.S. has made a pretty good start on regressing in several areas over the past few years, and on current form looks able to go on pretty much forever. They are equal to your challenge.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 3:09 PM
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And "go to Russia"/"love it or leave it"/whatever statements are used to shut down trying to fix injustice. Forgive the analogy, but after the civil unions law was passed in Vermont, the hick loggers in flannel were telling the happy gay couples from Massachusetts to go back where they came from, not the other way around. In fact, it would have been absurd if it had been the other way around.

Because we ceded the words to the other side. We don't have to do so. "Don't like gay people? What can I say, equal treatment's a bitch. Get out." I don't know why it can't be used that way.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 3:09 PM
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Whether Article V is amendable using Article V processes is an unsettled question

I can see why it would be unsettling, but why's it unsettled? There's nothing about it in the Constitution, is there?


Posted by: Eric | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 3:11 PM
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It's unsettled because no one has ever challenged an attempt to amend Article V before a court of competent jurisdiction who could then rule on it and settle the question.


Posted by: washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 3:13 PM
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Right, okay, but why would it even be an open question?


Posted by: Eric | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 3:14 PM
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5: Cal State is not UC; UC allows people to affix a statement that they will "defend" the various constitutions by non-violent means alone. Cal State is being an ass.

28: No, 'twas to fight the dreaded commies. Why does it never occur to people that anyone inclined to engage in an attempt to overthrow the gummint would simply sign the damned oath?

109: The Navy has a well-respected cooking school, actually. A couple of the people my son went to culinary management school with had gone there.


Posted by: DominEditrix | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 3:15 PM
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You're dreaming, Tim. Chauvinism works in fairly specific ways.

Much as I despise Canadians, they're human beings too. They've worked out a rudimentary form of democracy up there, and have even confected reasonable simulacra of universities. That is more than can be said of several of these United States.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 3:16 PM
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||

OT, but does anyone have any connections a little higher up that "Schlub Walking in Off the Street?? I have a policy proposal I'd like to pass on to someone who can make a reasonable call as to whether to pass it up the chain, and it might be a pretty nice way to own the whole "cost of gas" issue.

Briefly, I think Obama should propose fairly massive windfall taxes on the oil companies, but balance it out with up to 90% in tax credits back to those same companies for investing in green energy development and infrastructure, with the balance going to grants to indepents/startups for the same purpose. Takes the oil companies to the woodshed for gouging, forces them to invest in green technologies, could be used to drive energy independence, improves the environment, yadda yadda.


Posted by: Chopper | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 3:20 PM
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Viaduct?

I loved Carrier. Groundhog day describes life on board ship perfectly. the scenery doesn't even change.


Posted by: Tassled Loafered Leech | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 3:21 PM
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The Navy has a well-respected cooking school, actually. A couple of the people my son went to culinary management school with had gone there

Aren't the White House kitchen and some other Federal branches staffed by Navy Chefs? I suppose I could look it up, but I choose to go on vague memory.


Posted by: CJB | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 3:23 PM
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There's some debate on the question of whether amending certain parts of the constitution would so alter its overall form as to render it less of an amendment and more of a destroying the constitution and starting over from scratch.


Posted by: washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 3:28 PM
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I don't exactly see how an oath to protect and defend the Constitution violates anybody's First Amendment rights. I'm a pacifist, but I took such an oath as a requirement of my current job. It's easy to imagine nonviolent ways of protecting and defending the Constitution.


Posted by: eh | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 3:40 PM
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146: Does it allow for peaceful agitation for constitutional change?


Posted by: washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 3:43 PM
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Of course it does! That is the beauty of the Constitution in that it can be amended.


Posted by: Tassled Loafered Leech | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 3:46 PM
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Why does it never occur to people that anyone inclined to engage in an attempt to overthrow the gummint would simply sign the damned oath?

For the commies, it's no problem, as above. It's the reformists that you get with it: that way, any proposal that would actually change anyone's circumstances or threaten anyone's privilege can be cast as treasonous.

It makes it difficult to inhabit the middle ground of "Yes, I love my country so much that I want it to improve" by staging the game on the ground of with us or agin' us.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 3:47 PM
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Well, it depends what you're swearing to protect and defend it from, and in particular if one of those things is peaceful agitations for constitutional change.


Posted by: washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 3:47 PM
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147: Why not? The meaning of the Constitution is a matter of judicial construction. I just don't see that "protect and defend" is a formula that necessarily entails participation in military violence. Lots of pacifists have served in the military as COs, performing medical and other humanitarian tasks. I have nothing against Ms. Gonaver, but I don't necessarily agree with her interpretation of the oath.


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 3:49 PM
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146: Quakers religious beliefs don't allow them to swear oaths


Posted by: dob | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 3:58 PM
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152: Yeah, you're right. I forgot that. They could let her sign an affirmation. That's how it's handled in federal court when a witness doesn't want to swear an oath.

I got the impression, though, that the controversy wasn't so much about swearing an oath as about being required to pledge to protect and defend the Constitution. But I could be wrong.


Posted by: eh | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 4:01 PM
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First thoughts: The fuck a loyalty oath? I dislike the implication that it would be okay for Communists but bad for Quakers.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 4:11 PM
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Again, the California oath permits an affirmation. This is not about that part of Quakerism.

First thoughts: The fuck a loyalty oath?

Let me tell you about sunny California, Cala....


Posted by: Eric | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 4:15 PM
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Second thoughts: my in-laws are still kind of convinced that I'm a Quaker.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 4:17 PM
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You're not?


Posted by: Ari | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 4:21 PM
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71, 80: All state, city, county, public school, community college and public university employees -- about 2.3 million people -- are covered by the law, although noncitizens are not required to sign.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 4:24 PM
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Third thoughts: re: comment 25: again, you mean, Gonerill?


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 4:24 PM
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Ireland has invaded America?


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 4:26 PM
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You're dreaming, Tim. Chauvinism works in fairly specific ways.

I suspect, tied to demographics, inc. rural/urban splits. It's just in group/out group, AFAICT.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 4:27 PM
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my in-laws are still kind of convinced that I'm a Quaker

It's the hat.


Posted by: Eric | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 4:30 PM
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You know, I've been a public employee in California, and I have no recollection of signing a loyalty oath. The most likely explanation is that I thought, "Oh, for heaven's sake" and signed the cussed thing, but it's also possible they forgot.

I want to have more occasions to use the phrase "pure cussedness". I think the only thing you do out of it is stay alive, or perhaps show up at a party.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 4:31 PM
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160: Metaphorically, dear ben.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 4:31 PM
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I learned something about tail recursion today, everyone.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 4:33 PM
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165: I'm touching myself just thinking about recursing your tail, w-lfs-n.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 4:35 PM
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I learned that Leibniz's God is like Buridan's ass.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 4:36 PM
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I personally would be perfectly happy to destroy the Constitution of the State of California. It would give me great pleasure to amend and repeal it, every last jot and tittle, until the state of California had no legal existence at all and the state had to be put under a federal state of emergency. When this happened I would laugh my fiendish laugh, surrounded by my sycophants and concubines, and have my dwarf jester do a Schwarzenneger impersonation.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 4:37 PM
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160. Infiltrated is the word your looking for. Like the perfidious Quds forces from Iran into Iraq. Maybe that will have the same outcome, and Ashoura will be like St. Paddy's day in the future.


Posted by: Tassled Loafered Leech | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 4:40 PM
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re: comment 25: again, you mean, Gonerill?

It was certainly a successful infiltration.

The only country Ireland (or the self-appointed representatives thereof) can plausibly be said to have invaded is, in fact, Canada.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 4:42 PM
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So I find myself with an unexpected three hours in the MSP airport. Recommendations?

Ask this guy.


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 4:42 PM
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165: and what did you learn, Ben?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 4:49 PM
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Well Sifu, I'm glad you asked that.

For reasons that are now opaque to me, I was reflecting yesterday on the endoxa that hold that you can write an interative version of any recursive function, if necessary by using an explicit stack to model the recursion. So I decided that I would do some conversions like that, easily did one for the factorial function, and then got totally tripped up by the function that, in its recursive form, would look something like this: f(n) = 1 if n == 0 or n == 1 else f(n-1)+2*f(n-2). Then today, during my german romanticism class, by looking at some call trees, I figured that you could do it by basically using the stack to construct a sequence of instructions to an rpn calculator, and then go through those instructions to compute the result, the relevant portion being something like this:

f(n) {
if (n == 0 or n == 1) return 1;
stack s, c;
push(s, (n-2, true));
push(s, (n-1, false));
while (s) {
n, d = pop(s);
if (d) push(c, "D");
else push(c, "A");
if (n == 0 or n == 1) push(c, 1);
else { push(s, (n-2, true)); push(s, (n-1, false)); }
}
[computation with contents of c elided]
}

ending up with something like AA1D1D1 (on f(3)), where A means pop two and add, and D pop one and double.

But wait, I thought, isn't this totally cumbersome and inelegant? WHEN OUT OF THE BLUE IT HIT ME: it's all cumbersome like that b/c not tail-recursive, so you have to keep track of much more. (Maybe there's a more elegant way to do it anyway.)


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 4:59 PM
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Then I made some killer points about the Rede über die Mythologie … laydeez.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 5:00 PM
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great,
i missed a bomb threat alert at our campus, coz i went to the other one
nothing serious, just they said they found two unknown packages at the uni hospital


Posted by: read | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 5:02 PM
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168: I've told you a thousand times, John, I won't do a Schwarzenneger impersonation. No means no! And if you keep trying to make me, I'll have no choice but to file a grievance with my shop steward. Also, I don't want to wear these lederhosen any more; they chafe.


Posted by: Ari | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 5:03 PM
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ben: you've got the idea --- this is basically why it's always possible to implement tail-recursion very efficiently (e.g. implement a scheme efficiently with no iterative constraints) but general recursion can be a pain in the ass.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 5:04 PM
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Lederhosen for sale. Or rent?


Posted by: Ari | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 5:04 PM
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173: during my german romanticism class

So by the standards established on this very blog, german romanticism has now made a significant contribution to computing theory.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 5:07 PM
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It's funny; I have a strong aversion to the phrase "loyalty oath," but the idea of preserving and protecting the Constitution is deeply meaningful to me. I think public officials should have to swear to do that, if only so we can hold it up to them when they violate it. I'm not thrilled about the idea of universities making people sign this sort of statement, but I'm generally unsympathetic enough to academia that I don't really think I can have an objective reaction.

It makes it difficult to inhabit the middle ground of "Yes, I love my country so much that I want it to improve" by staging the game on the ground of with us or agin' us.

I'm not totally sure this is true. It doesn't take that much talent with rhetoric to imagine an argument along the lines of, oh, the right to peacably assemble and petition the government for redress of grievances? Probably kinda important to the Founders, seeing as how it was in the very first amendment.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 5:07 PM
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Runaway italics; sorry. I only meant to italicize "should" in the first paragraph, and of course in the second paragraph I'm quoting Wrongshore.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 5:10 PM
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german romanticism has now made a significant contribution to computing theory

Actually I rather like football.


Posted by: Eric | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 5:11 PM
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The only country Ireland (or the self-appointed representatives thereof) can plausibly be said to have invaded is, in fact, Canada.

Although what exactly they thought they were going to accomplish is kind of beyond me.


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 5:12 PM
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Also, I was pwned much more succinctly by wd in 150.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 5:13 PM
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I'm not totally sure this is true...

It's worse than that. In my experience, the more strongly anyone asserts these "with us or 'agin us" ideas, the more likely that whatever they are objecting too is actually codified in the `us' they are trying to claim.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 5:14 PM
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Stras did have a point, though, that the constitution is and always was a flawed document. It has some intrinsic good points, but mainly it's one of the few sources of unity this country has. Europeans laugh at American reverence for the Constitution, but without it we'd have to reason with one another, and a lot of those guys are impossible to reason with.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 5:14 PM
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I might see my way to signing a loyalty pledge to support and defend the US Constitution, but who the fuck knows what's in the California Constitution?


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 5:17 PM
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Chauvanism works in certain ways, true, but not just in the narrow ways that it works in the US. The French anti-royalist left during the July Monarchy called themselves "patriots". IIRC, the same is true of the movement that Samuel Johnson was bitching about when he said that patriotism is the last defense of scoundrels.

America is an imaginary construct, which means that we have the power to recreate it in our own image. I say the only real America is transvestite hookers turning tricks under the West Side Highway, and if you don't like it move to Zimbabwe.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 5:19 PM
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I could actually get behind making some kind of oath required for being a public official

In order to be pollworkers or election judges, in NC, we have to take an oath to uphold the laws and constitution of blibbidy-blah. I take it every time without complaint; it's a state job enforcing election laws, after all. We also do the pledge at the beginning of training every year and I get a little misty because, as I think I've discussed before, I'm big into symbols and hold the flag in very high regard. I shut my mouth during "under God," in part because it knots my knickers but mostly, in all seriousness, because I wouldn't mean it if I said it and I'd feel guilty lying when making the pledge.

That said, a loyalty oath for a job as a teacher? Completely un-American. Whoever devised it had one of two things: a high tolerance for irony or a complete dearth of intellectual curiosity because without one or the other the very concept should have made their head explode the moment they conceived the idea.


Posted by: Robust McManlyPants | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 5:29 PM
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I'm pretty sure I wasn't making any coherent point with 150, but I'm still proud that you feel it pwned you.


Posted by: washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 5:29 PM
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When this happened I would laugh my fiendish laugh, surrounded by my sycophants and concubines, and have my dwarf jester do a Schwarzenneger impersonation.


Posted by: Robust McManlyPants | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 5:31 PM
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Why do American kids have to pledge allegiance "to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands" while public officials, etc. get to swear to "preserve, protect and defend the Constitution?" The 2nd seems more reasonable.

Does the republic imply the Constitution? Is the part about the one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all just dicta? Are they pledging to uphold it in that form? Or are they released from obligation if it ceases to be godly or just?


Posted by: ixnaythemetier | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 5:38 PM
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Or are they released from obligation if it ceases to be godly or just?

I've always assumed it's kind of half-and-half: half an affirmation that they will help to bring these things about and half a statement of demands, a promise that if these things aren't delivered then all bets are off. It's partly cheerleading and partly mission statement only people have the option of really believing it. (I don't hold it against anyone if they think the pledge, the flag, whatever, falls somewhere between silly and offensive. I get misty but not so much that I fail to see our terrible mistakes, past and present. To some degree I am aware that my emotional investment in it as a symbol is an act of reclaiming what plenty of others to whom it's also important would just as happily deny me.)


Posted by: Robust McManlyPants | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 5:46 PM
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My attitude toward the Pledge has always been colored by the context in which it was inflicted on us (during a time of particularly panicky nationalism). It holds no particular meaning or emotion for me. I remember as a kid asking what kind of a country would require that you regularly promise obedience.

But per 180, I have no problem with the idea of preserving and protecting a document which is so deeply flawed that it defined a group of human beings as 3/5 human. So it's not like I'm Ms. Rational here.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 5:56 PM
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For a lot of war veterans the flag acquires a sort of sacred status. In politics the flag is a proxy for war, the military, and the sacrifices soldiers make. It's a very powerful symbolism because it stands for demands made on some but not all Americans which are in many cases impossible to repay, and there's a lot of guilt and horror in that.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 5:59 PM
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I had an oath at DOJ. Pledging to uphold, defend, bear true faith & allegiance to the laws seemed pretty appropriate for the cabinet dep't charged with administering them. For all the good that it does....A math teacher having to do it seems sketchier, & firing pacifist quakers for not wanting to accidentally pledge to go to war is sketchier stiill.

Fun fact: Erik Prince also has his employees pledge to uphold & defend the U.S. Constitution in exactly the same terms as the military's enlistment oath. And yet, they remain unaccountable mercenaries & not U.S. soldiers.


Posted by: Katherine | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 6:07 PM
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I am 100% behind the pledge. Should kids be forced to recite it? I don't really know, but I think probably not, but all adults damn well ought to want to recite it. If you don't believe in "our country", as an abstract idea, you aren't going to be willing to sacrifice and fight for its preservation. I'm not talking about military service--I'm talking about fighting against people here in this country who want to pervert it. We need a population devoted to the idea that there is something about our country worth working for and investing themselves in. Worth dying for. If you live in a democracy, you aren't just an "individual" or a "consumer", or whatever the fuck else, you're a goddam citizen. Or at least you should be. And that should mean something to you.


Posted by: Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 6:09 PM
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there's a lot of guilt and horror in that

There is definitely a lot of survivor's guilt involved in a lot of people's feelings about it and with what they invest it as a symbol. Among the veterans and survivors in my grandparents' generation there was a lot of what can only be called reverence but the first thing they would talk about was the dead. Conscious or not, for them it became a symbol of imagined happiness cut short.


Posted by: Robust McManlyPants | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 6:10 PM
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Carrier is good. Just for capturing the sheer surreal quality of being stuck on the giant boat in question. But I found myself wishing there was some mighty patriotic institution that would give people second chances, bring them together in a disciplined communal way, around some higher purpose besides killing other people. You know, moral equivalent of war.

Wouldn't it be cool if there were millions of people in the Peace Corps and they travelled around the world in giant boats looking for opportunities to do good? And then LB had them all invade Pakistan or something? Except the Pakistanis would love them for it?


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 6:39 PM
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Kobe thinks that sounds nice, but a little National Greatness-y.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 6:49 PM
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Kobe's never scoring 200 points, Tim.


Posted by: Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 7:13 PM
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133: YAY!

There was a period in my life when I got presents from sanity and insanity claus. Of course the latter ones were best of all. I think my grandma came up with it separately from chico, though.


Posted by: mmf! | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 7:34 PM
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i love you for writing 133, "Eric."

to cjb who is wondering if White House chefs are always Navy chefs: the lovely Jacques Pepin was White House chef for a while, and he is not even a US citizen let alone member of the Navy, so it might happen sometimes but it is most definitely not required.

and on another note, when my passport was stolen when I was overseas, I had to swear a loyalty oath to the US government in order to get a new one. Specifically, I had to promise that I had not and would not commit any form of treason against the US. I have zero problem with that. It's what makes us a republic - citizens have to make a commitment to each other and to the republic itself. If we were just a monarchy, or a tribe, or a hereditary ethnic culture that you get born into, that would be one thing, but we are very explicitly a republic, and there are responsibilities that come with that. If we have problems with laws or policies, we are supposed to change them from within.

Spoken by a great big fat lefty.


Posted by: mmf! | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 7:43 PM
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Because it's like saying, "no crossing your fingers!"?

Because if your tongue swears to, but your heart does not, you've sworn to; your heart doesn't enter into it.

I don't see how the regress of rules is relevant here, actually, and this formulation: No, it's that you can't, on pain of infinite regress, make a rule commanding someone to follow rules. isn't really right. I can certainly make a rule commanding umpires in baseball to follow certain rules. I can also establish (pace the claim of meaninglessness in 133) procedures for how to change the rules of baseball. What I can't do is, when it comes to the application of rules, have it be rules all the way down. (This rule says how to apply that rule. But how do I apply this rule?)


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 7:44 PM
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Oh, the other reason is that it's equivalent to adding the claim "and I'm not lying" to the oath. But that's ridiculous. A liar would also affirm that—he's a liar, remember?—and the only evidence you would have later that he was lying would also be evidence that he had abrogated the oath anyway, so... In general you can't have a sign for sincerity; this is widely known.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 7:47 PM
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"But how do I know that the expression '"fog", where "fog" means fog' means '"fog", where "fog" means fog'"?

Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 7:48 PM
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Kobe's never scoring 200 points

Any Wilt defenders around here? Wilt could never have scored 81 in the modern NBA.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 7:49 PM
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The last major influence on the game of baseball that everyone recognizes, whether from the AL or the NL, is Wittgenstein.


Posted by: Merganser | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 7:49 PM
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In general you can't have a sign for sincerity; this is widely known.

Damn, this makes me smile.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 7:53 PM
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Any Wilt defenders around here? Wilt could never have scored 81 in the modern NBA.

Disagree. I think Shaq put up 60+ in one game, David Robinson had 71 in a game, and Wilt was, by most accounts, a much better athlete than either.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 7:54 PM
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We readers of archaic and antiquated ex-philosophers have to stick together, parsimon.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 7:54 PM
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I can certainly make a rule commanding umpires in baseball to follow certain rules.

Certain rules, yes, but not rules as such. Or, you can, but infinite regress.... Similarly, you can tell someone that they can only sign if they don't have mental reservations, but they can keep having mental reservations when signing the mental reservations clause, and you could add another clause, etc.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 7:54 PM
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"But how do I know that the expression '"fog", where "fog" means fog' means '"fog", where "fog" means fog'"?

I was thinking of Kant, actually: Examples are thus the go-cart of judgment; and those who are lacking in the general talent [of applying rules] can never dispense with them (A134/B174). (The Guyer/Wood translation has the more literal but less pleasing "thus examples are the leading-strings of the power of judgment, which he who lacks the natural talent for judgment can never do without".)

This section is also the site of this great footnote:

The lack of the power of judgment is that which is properly called stupidity, and such a failing is not to be helped. A dull or limited head, hwich is lacking nothing but the appropriate degree of understanding and its proper concepts, may well be trained through instruction, even to the point of becoming learned. But since it would usually still lack the power of judgment (the secunda Petri), it is not at all uncommon to encounter very learned men who in the use of the science frequently give glimpses of that lack, which is never to be ameliorated. (A133/B172–A134/B173)


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 7:56 PM
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Even if they did say "Jehovah."


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 7:57 PM
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Because if your tongue swears to, but your heart does not, you've sworn to; your heart doesn't enter into it.

Why do I think you've used that line on women before, w-lfs-n?


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 7:57 PM
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Wilt was, by most accounts, a much better athlete than either

Much better than those two? Who says that?


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 7:57 PM
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212: oh, well, if that's what you meant.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 7:57 PM
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Why do I think you've used that line on women before, w-lfs-n?

Your mom's tongue swore to some pretty nasty things last night, Tim.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 7:58 PM
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Disagree. I think Shaq put up 60+ in one game

Anyway, the more important point is that he was often the only guy his size on the floor. That wouldn't be true now.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 7:59 PM
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If it was with you, it would more or less have to, no?


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 7:59 PM
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Tim had no mother.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 7:59 PM
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I knew I had used that footnote before.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 8:00 PM
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It's a sign that you're losing your edge.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 8:03 PM
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Anyway, the more important point is that he was often the only guy his size on the floor. That wouldn't be true now.

1. I'm not sure that's true, especially later in his career.
2. It's not just size, it's athleticism, as you know.

As he did at Overbrook, Chamberlain again showcased his diverse athletic talent. He ran the 100-yard dash in 10.9 seconds, threw the shotput 56 feet, triple jumped more than 50 feet, and won the high jump in the Big Eight track and field championships three straight years.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 8:03 PM
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217: (I figured that's what he meant, but it left room to, uh, worry the question, yeah. Charitable reading, people!)

Next up: Battlestar Galactica!


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 8:03 PM
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I lost my edge a long, long time ago.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 8:04 PM
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222: Obama just said "the reason is because", Ben. It's Shaq or nothing for you now.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 8:04 PM
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I'm not sure that's true, especially later in his career.

Yeah, but that's not when he scored 100.

it's athleticism, as you know

Impressive, but only so much of that translates to basketball, and I'm not sure he was actually quicker than Robinson, or more agile than (young) Shaq.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 8:07 PM
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Well, everyone else is sure.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 8:07 PM
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Impressive, but only so much of that translates to basketball, and I'm not sure he was actually quicker than Robinson, or more agile than (young) Shaq.

For gawd's sake, he had sex with 20,000 women, which speaks to his incredible stamina. There are NBA franchises that can't put up those numbers. I guarantee neither Robinson nor O'Neal did.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 8:10 PM
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I'm not sure that's true

In the 60's centers were commonly 6'7'' or 6'8''.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 8:11 PM
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A.C. Green had sex with 0 women -- the NBA record. He was a churchy kind of guy from Portland, OR.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 8:12 PM
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You cannot divide by the number of women A.C. Green had during his career. It's mathematically impossible. If he had figured out a way to have sex with fewer than 0 women, he would have. Or guys, either. This is a record that will never be broken.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 8:14 PM
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He was a churchy kind of guy from Portland, OR.

232: Also, not terribly attractive.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 8:15 PM
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This is a record that will never be broken

Someone could sleep with zero people over a longer career.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 8:16 PM
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He's not your type, Tim.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 8:16 PM
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In the 60's centers were commonly 6'7'' or 6'8''.

He dropped 50 on Bill Russell, who was 6'10".


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 8:17 PM
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He did it without the use of drugs, too. Not like Keith Richard.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 8:17 PM
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not terribly attractive

He's a hell of a lot better-looking than LeBron, you racist.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 8:18 PM
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He's not your type, Tim.

That's a terrible picture to make my point. He use to have a Jheri Curl hair cut, but I was too lazy to find such a picture.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 8:19 PM
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A.C. Green, Jr., (born October 4, 1963 in Portland, Oregon) is a former NBA basketball player who has played in more consecutive games than any other player in NBA and ABA history (1,192).

That would be hard to do too.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 8:20 PM
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239: Not if they're both holding their bank books.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 8:20 PM
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239: LeBron looked pretty good tonight.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 8:21 PM
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He dropped 50 on Bill Russell, who was 6'10".

Exactly. Nowadays he'd be facing a guy that big or bigger every game, not to mention modern power forwards helping out on defense who are light years bigger and faster than anything he saw on a regular basis.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 8:22 PM
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Green apparently spent part of his childhood in Hermiston, which is a serious redneck town. He suffered from severe hiccups during his whole playing career, which kept him from ever sleeping well.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 8:24 PM
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244: You just hate the old and the dead. No wonder you support Obama. I'd take Wilt over any other center in history.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 8:24 PM
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In America, Wilt take you.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 8:27 PM
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I'd take Wilt over any other center in history.

How high are you?


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 8:28 PM
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In America, Wilt take you.

Given the 20K, he must have covered a hell of a lot more territory than just America.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 8:29 PM
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Are we taking his word for 20k? Doesn't that seem, I don't know, like kind of a lot?


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 8:31 PM
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Well, I'd take Frédéric Weis under any other center in history.


Posted by: peter | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 8:31 PM
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250: Yeah, I think it's an enormous exaggeration. I think he said as much, actually. Gawd, I really shouldn't know this much trivia about the NBA.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 8:33 PM
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Ah, so you get to compare Chamberlain against players 30+ years down the line. Fine, I'll compare Shaq and Robinson to the best centers in 2028. And Johnny Weismuller would get beat by 15 year old girls ...

As punishment, I command ogged, gswift and other wrong people on this thread to go sit in a corner and not think of a white bear (don't think of different white bear than A White Bear that is).


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 8:33 PM
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It'll be pretty sweet if the Hawks take this to seven.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 8:36 PM
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Fine, I'll compare Shaq and Robinson to the best centers in 2028.

You think the average height of centers will be 4 or 5 inches taller than it is now in 20 years?


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 8:37 PM
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shit, that was incoherent, but you know what I mean


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 8:38 PM
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You think the average height of centers will be 4 or 5 inches taller than it is now in 20 years?

Who knows? But trust me it will be some fucking thing or another that will render the comparison difficult. I cannot even believe you guys are being so dense on this. I mean from ogged you come to expect it, but ...


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 8:41 PM
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Atlanta is playing too conservatively now. (Yes, I know the announcer just said that, but it's true.)


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 8:42 PM
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Celtics suck. The Lakers swept a team with 50 wins in the West, and people talk like the Celts have a shot. Not likely, you dirty east coast motherfuckers.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 8:43 PM
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I cannot even believe you guys are being so dense on this

What do you think the argument is? We're saying that Wilt couldn't score 100 today (even leaving aside the fact that he's dead).


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 8:44 PM
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But trust me it will be some fucking thing or another that will render the comparison difficult.

What does that have to do with making fun of the old and slagging on other people's favorite players?


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 8:45 PM
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182: german romanticism has now made a significant contribution to computing theory

Actually I rather like football.

So is the rule that if you're name gets mentioned in the post you get to be the fucking thread Nazi?


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 8:46 PM
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Speaking of Wilt, holy shit this is a good Celtics game.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 8:46 PM
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Pwned, I see.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 8:46 PM
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JEEEZ this is some hard fought shit.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 8:47 PM
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How often do players even take 50 shots in a game? (Or, I guess with free throws, you probably could get to 100 with 40-45 shots. And that's just the minimum number of shots required. No one's going to have a 100% night.)


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 8:48 PM
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Holy wow that was a lucky three.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 8:49 PM
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260, 261: These comparisons between eras never work the way you guys seem to be wanting to make it work is my point. You can't set the conditions on what you want the hypothetical Wilt who competes in 2000 to be in any kind of meaningful way.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 8:49 PM
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So is the rule that if you're name gets mentioned in the post you get to be the fucking thread Nazi?

The rule is, ja'm tomorrow and ja'm yesterday, but never ja'm today.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 8:50 PM
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Fuckin' A! C'mon celts put 'em away.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 8:52 PM
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We're saying that Wilt couldn't score 100 today

81. Which Kobe did.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 8:53 PM
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Moth. Er. Fuck. Er.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 8:54 PM
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Also, not terribly attractive.

I don't think that's an impediment in the NBA.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 8:54 PM
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273: The second picture is just fantastic. I love Sam.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 8:56 PM
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Gawd, it's going to be great watching the Lakers break Boston's heart.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 8:57 PM
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While seeing the Celtics get put away by the Hawks would warm my soul, I think I want them to make it to the finals so the Lakers can humiliate them.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 8:57 PM
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I'm sitting here with my five-year-old son, watching the end of the Celtics game. This is the first time he's ever watched sport. But he knows his grandfather lives and dies with the Cs, so he's deeply invested in the game. Alas, I'm afraid that he's about to be pretty upset.


Posted by: Ari | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 8:58 PM
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Holy wow c'mon guys put one in don't go for the three you can take them in OT I think I don't know yeaaaargh (brain explodes; Sam Cassell shapes all over the wall!)


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 8:58 PM
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Heh indeedy.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 8:58 PM
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276: pwned and deluded; that's gotta hurt.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 8:59 PM
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Atlanta actually had a pretty good home record this year.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 9:00 PM
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Far be it from me to pretend they're going to win tonight, though. Choke, bibster! Choke, lobster bib!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 9:00 PM
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That's the Bibby I know and hate from his days in Sacramento.


Posted by: Ari | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 9:00 PM
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277: Does anyone have the number for the Department of Youth and Family Services?


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 9:00 PM
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277: Does anyone have the number for the Department of Youth and Family Services?


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 9:00 PM
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Stupid shot, Rajon. Oh well; they'll kill 'em in Game 7.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 9:01 PM
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my God, what a lame last possession...


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 9:01 PM
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284-85: I'll say it twice, it's only 8 pm here. So what's the problem? That I'm exposing the lad to Boston sports? Yeah, I guess I see your point.


Posted by: Ari | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 9:02 PM
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288: you're an honorable man, Ari. A wise an honorable man. A life earned through pain is a life worth living.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 9:02 PM
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Also here's what a lame-ass sports fan I am: I skipped the middle part of the game to watch Obama's speech. Oh, he had game.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 9:03 PM
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Looks like Boston's on track to not close the deal in another championship this year.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 9:03 PM
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So what's the problem? That I'm exposing the lad to Boston sports? Yeah, I guess I see your point.

I think that's fine as long as you expose him to Buddhism at the same time. Suddenly games become teaching moments.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 9:04 PM
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291: gswift I love your misplaced optimism. Work that.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 9:06 PM
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In my former neighborhood, on a weeknight last week, I heard kids who couldn't have been older than 10 - probably younger than 7 or 8 - outside playing on the sidewalks until nearly midnight.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 9:07 PM
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292: Suddenly games become teaching moments.

I watched '86 Game 6 at the house of a diehard Boston fan. He had three young sons who wandered off to play early in the game (this also happened to be in California), after the 2nd out he called them back into the room: "Come in here boys, you're going to remember this the rest of your lives!"


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 9:08 PM
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But won't the new generation of Boston sports fans grow up thinking that their teams haven't won in just a few years, rather than decades?


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 9:13 PM
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Everything I know about injustice I learned from Hugh Hollins.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 9:15 PM
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295: oh god I could tell you every detail of that night, down to the notes of the special song I'd composed, that I had practiced, ready to play for my whole family on my Euphonium when the Red Sox won the series. I could describe to you in every detail the chair I was sitting on.

I mean, it's retarded.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 9:15 PM
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I must say, rather surprising from the Tri-City(Davenport/Moline/Rock Island) Blackhawks/Milwaukee/St. Louis/Atlanta Hawks, you'd a thunk it was Bob Pettit out there putting in 30 and pulling down 20 boards per game.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 9:15 PM
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250

"Are we taking his word for 20k? Doesn't that seem, I don't know, like kind of a lot?"

IIRC what he actually wrote in his book was that he was closing in on 20000. He also claimed none of them were (to his knowledge) married so he did have standards.


Posted by: James B. Shearer | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 9:18 PM
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Everything I know about injustice I learned from 800 years of colonial oppression. Wait, I mean bitterness. Everything I know about bitterness.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 9:20 PM
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Sifu plays euphonium?


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 9:22 PM
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All 800-year-old men are bitter.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 9:22 PM
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300: was that he was closing in on 20000

Gosh, so am I! Or is it a rule that the other party has to know about it? (And you're talking about Kobe, right?)


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 9:22 PM
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Everything I know about bitters I learned from 800 years of colonial debauchery.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 9:22 PM
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302: it's been years.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 9:23 PM
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A tuba is a proper manly instrument.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 9:24 PM
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One of the great mysteries of this blog, that shall ever remain so, is the import of the Kobe reference. Seriously.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 9:25 PM
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Sifu plays euphonium?

I read this and was like, he stole that cd from me!


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 9:26 PM
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303: All 800-year-old men are bitter.

A marinade will often help.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 9:27 PM
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The 20K figure is obviously a lie. I think the fact that A C Green was a pro athlete and remained a virgin the whole time is the kind of tragedy that inspired the line "Gather ye rosebuds while ye may".


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 9:27 PM
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307: okay, well, (a) there were already plenty of tuba players and I didn't want to be "oh, there's one of those 18 guys who plays tuba" and (b) you can develop a lot more interestic melodic kind of figures on a euphonium. I bet you played clarinet, conformist.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 9:27 PM
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Not slagging the euphonium, which is also a properly manly instrument what with the brass and bass clef and all.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 9:28 PM
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The guy I went to my senior prom with was a euphonium player from a neighboring high school.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 9:28 PM
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I bet you played clarinet, conformist.

I played trombone.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 9:29 PM
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The girl I went to my senior prom with was dating a euphonium player! Weird!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 9:29 PM
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I should have known Apo played brass like a real man.

I was tuba section leader in high school.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 9:30 PM
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315: I am not even a little bit surprised. The girl in all-town band? You know, the one who looked a little like Tina Yothers, who I rapidly got over when I got to high school? Trombone player.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 9:30 PM
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We were required to play an instrument during fifth grade. Trumpet. Hated it. Don't think I practiced even once. I wanted to play the flute for some reason (probably because I'm gay), but was told I had the wrong kind of lips. Racists.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 9:31 PM
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The first part of 318 doesn't have anything to do with the second part, thanks, demon Malbec. I knew apo played the trombone because he's a funky, funky dude.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 9:31 PM
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A date which will live in euphony.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 9:31 PM
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319: DSL ain't no FPL, if you see what I'm saying.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 9:32 PM
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322: Uhh, I played the flute pretty seriously for 11 years.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 9:33 PM
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No, I have no idea what you're saying.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 9:33 PM
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I played the recorder in elementary school. I kind of wish I'd been encouraged to play the piano, like my sister was. Instead there was this crazy idea that I'd play the violin, which I hated.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 9:33 PM
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323: but do you play it now?

Lamarckism was right!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 9:34 PM
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324: on evidence of the person sitting next to me, nobody does.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 9:35 PM
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Uhh, I played the flute pretty seriously for 11 years.

And then you were paroled?


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 9:36 PM
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Huh, you need a certain kind of lips to play the flute? I guess. My first boyfriend played the flute. Pretty. Huh.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 9:36 PM
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Euphonia are great. They really are euphonious.

A tuba is a proper manly instrument.

I'm going to see Carl Ludwig Hübsch play one on tuesday!


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 9:36 PM
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I wanted to play the flute for some reason (probably because I'm gay)

You and Eric Dolphy.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 9:38 PM
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||

Even this white boy's first attempt at mujadara is delicious, it turns out.

|>


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 9:38 PM
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I Used To Play The Euphonium


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 9:39 PM
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I'm going to see Carl Ludwig Hübsch play one on tuesday!

I love w-lfs-n.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 9:39 PM
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I reject and renounce 334. Blume, in addition to having given up the flute, has let her skills at changing the Name field atrophy quite appallingly.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 9:40 PM
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Even this white boy's first attempt at mujadara is delicious, it turns out.

Sounds tasty, but I bet you're no Ben w-lfs-n's sister.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 9:40 PM
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The second Youtube result for "Carl Ludwig Hübsch" is pretty good.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 9:41 PM
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Is Hübsch hübsch? You be the judge.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 9:41 PM
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Hübsch maybe. That's not necessarily a compliment for a dude, though.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 9:43 PM
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The euphonium is a great instrument.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 9:47 PM
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There's a euphonium player in Kayo Dot. He was mostly inaudible when I went to see them.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 9:49 PM
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What does"hübsch" mean? I'm currently partial to the the translation as provided by a google video search.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 9:52 PM
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Ich ein Tag sprechen hübsch.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 9:52 PM
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The euphonium is a great instrument.

A euphonium encomium.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 9:52 PM
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One of the great features of mujadara is that it is easy and reliable as well as delicious.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 9:53 PM
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you need a certain kind of lips to play the flute?

Flute - traditionally for girls, but not always. Flute is very much like recorder or flutaphone in that the fingerings are almost the same. Here is what to look for - Can your child exhale and continue air flow for at least 20 seconds? If not, flute is not a good choice. It takes A LOT of air to play the flute! Also, if your child has what we call the "teardrop" lip, that is not a good sign.

Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 9:53 PM
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If I'm going to be completely honest with you people, I played the baritone horn. It's just that "euphonium" is a better name.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 9:54 PM
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mujadara

In Iranian cooking, it's called "addas pollo." Just FYI, homies.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 9:56 PM
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I would be impressed if someone could play on the harmonica encomia to euphonia.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 9:56 PM
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It takes A LOT of air to play the flute!

Craic/crack is the clichéd misunderstanding of Irishese, but I remember an American in college looking curious when a trad musician I used to follow around like a lost mooncow be good friends said someone had "great blow." Turned out to be a flute player.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 9:57 PM
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I played guitar in high school, like any heterosexual male should. Shit, no wonder Wilt could reach 20K, facing that kind of competition. If he were facing more modern, guitar-playing competition, he'd have trouble cracking 10.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 9:58 PM
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346: The fuck?

Also, fingerings are also almost the same for clarinet, saxophone, oboe, bassoon, usw. Also.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 9:58 PM
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Sif, you watching the game?


Posted by: Nápi | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 9:59 PM
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It's kind of a strange site, but it mentions the lip thing, so hey. Wheat, chaff.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 9:59 PM
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I would be impressed if someone could play on the harmonica encomia to euphonia.

If played on a a mouth organ engraved with a camellia pattern, it would be a japonica harmonica euphonium encomium.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 9:59 PM
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but was told I had the wrong kind of lips

He meant you don't have a vagina, Ogged.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 9:59 PM
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Fifth grade, boy was that ever true.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 10:03 PM
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So what exactly is the difference between a baritone horn and a euphonium?


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 10:03 PM
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In Iranian cooking, it's called "addas pollo." Just FYI, homies.

What? there's no chicken.

it would be a japonica harmonica euphonium encomium.

And if you sang your praises with a certain sort of radioactive squeezebox, it would be a plutonium harmonium euphonium encomium.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 10:03 PM
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357: But the wonders of modern surgery, eh?


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 10:04 PM
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352: now I am.

A "teardrop" upper lip, an upper lip that protrudes somewhat into the mouthpiece and that even at rest appears to hang down in the middle, like a teardrop, requires a somewhat modified approach.

Grody! Ogged has an "outie" mouth-clitoris!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 10:04 PM
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What? there's no chicken.

I almost forgot that I'm Mexican.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 10:06 PM
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359: And if done badly it would be plutonium harmonium euphonium encomium meconium.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 10:07 PM
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352: They're sort of the same, except for the damned forked F on the oboe, and the fact that the instruments are in different keys. I used to be musical and I really miss that, come to think of it.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 10:09 PM
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"Pollo" is the Farsi word for chicken too? Fascinating.

Also, I don't suppose anyone here can explain why the lower-tier seats ("terrace reserved") at Wrigley Field are more expensive than the upper-tier seats, can they? I'm assuming that they are obstructed in some way. But how can an entire section be obstructed? Or maybe "terrace" means there are no seats and it's a standing area.


Posted by: Auto-banned | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 10:10 PM
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Wait, these are probably the seats that are facing the wrong way. I read about those.

No, isn't that Fenway Park"? Or Tiger Stadium? that has the seats facing the right fielder?

ZOMG the only other sub-$100 seats might disappear at any moment, for all I know.


Posted by: Auto-banned | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 10:12 PM
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363: you'd want to do sort of a post-mortem, were that to come to pass, with experts in the field; a plutonium harmonium euphonium encomium meconium symposium.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 10:13 PM
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except for the damned forked F on the oboe

Okay, I used to play the oboe, and I have no memory of this. I'm *sure* I must have played an F at some point though.


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 10:22 PM
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So, her name is some weird dialect form of the word for pretty?


Posted by: Super-Assassin Daihatsu | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 10:22 PM
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369: couldn't tell you, but kickass pseud, SAD!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 10:24 PM
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"Fuck to oboe" is one of those phrases that seems to have gone sneaking underground.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 10:25 PM
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Memory is dead, eb.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 10:26 PM
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We're takin' it back, man!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 10:27 PM
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(Surprisingly, there's only one google hit for "gone sneaking underground".)


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 10:27 PM
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I can't figure out why this game is going on so long. Napi?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 10:28 PM
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Kobe's MVP.


Posted by: Ari | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 10:31 PM
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I was a clarinetist, Josh, and only played the oboe to fuck with the orchestra director's head* now and then, but this is what I mean.

*I had, at one point, the ability to be instantly mediocre on any woodwind instrument I picked up. It's a bizarre and useless musical talent, but in a mediocre high school band, it meant I could get bored and decide to play the oboe part.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 10:31 PM
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376 as a point of information rather than in response to 375.


Posted by: Ari | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 10:32 PM
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Rain.


Posted by: Nápi | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 10:34 PM
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"Fuck to oboe" is one of those phrases that seems to have gone sneaking underground.

But it will return one day in our time of need and sweep our oppressors from the land.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 10:35 PM
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379: oh! What are the chances: it's been raining here, too!

380: fuck you, clown.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 10:36 PM
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377: Huh. I have no memory of that particular issue. Then again, I wasn't a particularly diligent student.

I was always jealous of the clarinetists (and the saxophonists), cause they could play something other than classical music. Not much call for rock oboe.


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 10:39 PM
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This thread's not really about anything anymore, right? So I hope nobody will mind my mentioning that Don Cazayoux really might win the special election tomorrow for the Louisiana 6th's House seat. Which means: it could not suck worse for the Republicans right now. Seriously, that a Democrat might win that district is astonishing.


Posted by: Ari | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 10:39 PM
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Not much call for rock oboe.

Lozenge begs to differ.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 10:46 PM
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NTM Michel Berckmanns.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 10:47 PM
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I am very surprised that y'all are talking about flautists and not mentioning band camp. Are you hipsters or no?


Posted by: Tassled Loafered Leech | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 11:01 PM
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Well they weren't around when I was playing oboe, now were they?


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 05- 2-08 11:01 PM
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Just wanted to mention that I appreciate the "fuck to oboe" reference.


Posted by: washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 05- 3-08 12:42 AM
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Just back from hearing Puccini's Chrysanthemums, Sibelius' Violin Concerto and Brahms 1. Satisfying evening.

1. oh god I could tell you every detail of that night
OMG so great. Unforgettable. The eclipse ending minutes after the last out.
2. gswift, my brother. I played tuba my last year in HS. I sounds as though there's a low brass quartet in the Mineshaft.
3. Carl Ludwig Hübsch is the Stefano Scodanibbio of the tuba.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 05- 3-08 12:48 AM
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Ben: obviously, easier iterative is not to think of it as recursive: (rereading, I'm not sure if this is what you mean, but here goes, on the off chance that this didn't occur to you, and of course, you could just compute the function)

f(n){
if ((n==0) or (n==1))
return 1;
prev_var = 1;
prev_prev_var = 1;
for cur_var=3 to n do {
tmp = cur_var;
cur_var = prev_var + 2*prev_prev_var;
prev_prev_var = prev_var;
prev_var = tmp;
}
return cur_var;
}


Posted by: U | Link to this comment | 05- 3-08 1:05 AM
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Yes, that's the obvious iterative solution. But I wanted an iterative solution that was *explicitly* following the recursive form. I didn't want to be bothered to find a problem where there's no choice but to use an explicit stack (since I understand there are such), so I took this problem and added it as a constraint.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 05- 3-08 2:23 AM
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Well they weren't around when I was playing oboe, now were they?

Berckmanns probably was.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 05- 3-08 2:23 AM
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Sigh. No active threads? Does everybody sleep in on Saturdays or something? With no regard for my need to be pitiful and whiny?

Renewed the breakup with the Guy I was Casually Seeing Thursday night/Friday morning. I think this time it will stick, if only because it would be too pathetic to keep repeating this routine. It also occurred to me last night that Thursday was the anniversary of the day that UNG and I got together millions of years ago. I am sad. When you all wake up you can feel sorry for me.

(The silver lining is that I am now wholeheartedly committed to signing up for the Crazy Blind Date next weekend.)


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 05- 3-08 7:47 AM
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I'm here and sympathetic. Poor Di. Would you like to proctor a calculus exam with me?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 05- 3-08 7:50 AM
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Don't be sad, Di. When you are done with Heebie's exam, you could help me grade essay tests. Then maybe later we can go see Iron Man.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 05- 3-08 7:52 AM
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Oooh! Calculus! I used to know how to do calculus! I used to like calculus. When I was a freshman in college, I would sometimes do calculus problems just for fun when I didn't feel like studying literature. I didn't take any math in college, though. I sometimes tell myself that I am going to dig out my old calculus book and relearn it (yes, I am that big of a dork), until I remember that I don't have actual leisure time for that. Though I guess I've opened up a little extra time now...


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 05- 3-08 7:54 AM
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I realize you guys are trying to offer "it could be worse scenarios," but I love grading essays. I do want to see Iron Man, too, which kind of surprises me because it's not usually the type of movie I get into.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 05- 3-08 7:56 AM
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I have my grandma's old calculus book from the 30's that she bought at one point, intending to learn calculus on her own. When I have time, I'm going to read through it. It's very cute and talks in rambling prose about things which are very, very large and things which are very, very small.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 05- 3-08 7:57 AM
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397: Nah, yours is worse. I'm just watching a bunch of kids sweat bullets.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 05- 3-08 7:58 AM
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Relationships!


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 05- 3-08 8:01 AM
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Heebie is a proctorologist!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05- 3-08 8:02 AM
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So, you're saying the best answers for her exam would be ex recto?


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 05- 3-08 8:04 AM
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Integrate over the curve of the ass!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05- 3-08 8:05 AM
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I gave them this as a bonus question - how much did Mr. Monroe write the cheque for?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 05- 3-08 8:05 AM
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things which are very, very large and things which are very, very small

cocks@unfogged.com


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 05- 3-08 8:05 AM
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Heebie also teaches Posterior Analytics.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 05- 3-08 8:07 AM
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405: If you leave out the very, very large part, that is.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 05- 3-08 8:08 AM
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Did you include the "What now, bitches?"


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 05- 3-08 8:09 AM
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the cheque

?????


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 05- 3-08 8:10 AM
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Yes. I want them to think that I'm no square.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 05- 3-08 8:11 AM
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Did any of you nerds get Games magazine as a kid? There was always a section on a letter that had been addressed to the magazine using a rebus or cryptogram of some kind and the person who wrote it and the postman who deciphered it. I loved that.

Checkwriter man is my new hero.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 05- 3-08 8:12 AM
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409: Does everyone else say "check"? I couldn't remember.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 05- 3-08 8:12 AM
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This is a really fun calculus (and other things) book.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05- 3-08 8:12 AM
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A life earned through pain is a life worth living.

Boston fans are the most spoiled and self-righteous of any sports fans. The Sox made the World Series in the 60s, 70s, 80s, and 00s. The Celtics reached the NBA finals every year between WWII and the retirement of Larry Bird. The Pats and their smirking, sweatshirted coach won seven straight championships, or maybe it just felt that way. Yet with all that, Boston still feels entitled to the worst sort of self-indulgent sports sentimentalism, tormenting the rest of us with gigantic self-pitying essays by the likes of John Updike, slow-motion TV montages about the "curse" set to classical music, etc. etc. The overblown pomposity of Boston's literary front men is only matched by the crudeness and vulgarity of their actual fans, one of whom once spit on me when I was cheering for the other team at Fenway. Fuck a bunch of Boston.

Gawd, it's going to be great watching the Lakers Cavaliers break Boston's heart.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 05- 3-08 8:13 AM
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411: Postman? Really, oudemia? Please. Mail carrier is the preferred nomenclature.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 05- 3-08 8:14 AM
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411: I loved that magazine. Some of those puzzles were quite convincingly hard.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05- 3-08 8:14 AM
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one of whom once spit on me when I was cheering for the other team at Fenway

In my defense, you deserved it.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05- 3-08 8:15 AM
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Checkwriter man is my new hero.

An excellent hero, to set alongside Elizabeth Cady Stanton and Garibaldi. He's the guy who does this comic.


Posted by: beamish | Link to this comment | 05- 3-08 8:18 AM
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I often buy Games even to this day. Sadly, the quality has plummeted. (They went out of business around 1990 and were bought by a company that doesn't care much about quality. Apparently the many names on the masthead are almost all out of date, and the actual staff for the entire magazine is just two lonely souls.)


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 05- 3-08 8:18 AM
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420

Maybe they can rub together and make baby lonely souls to keep them company.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 05- 3-08 8:20 AM
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Sorry, I had only read half the thread and y'all had moved on.

Sorry, Di! Heebie! asses! All right!

In my defense, you deserved it.

Hillary wasn't even running for anything yet.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 05- 3-08 8:20 AM
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Fun puzzles: http://www.pandamagazine.com/island/index.html


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 05- 3-08 8:20 AM
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423

418: Oh, him. Then, at least in December or so, he was the boyfriend of the daughter of some older friends of mine. She's an MIT student, so I'm guessing he is too?


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 05- 3-08 8:22 AM
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424

Shouldn't we be continuing to tease console Di about her ex-relationship?


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 05- 3-08 8:23 AM
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425

tease

Damn, damn, damn.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 05- 3-08 8:24 AM
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426

EMERSON SCREWED UP THE HTML! roflmao, god that's rich.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 05- 3-08 8:25 AM
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423: he used to be. I believe he graduated.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05- 3-08 8:26 AM
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428

At this point, he sells comic merchandise. He used to be a NASA contractor. Wikipedia page.


Posted by: beamish | Link to this comment | 05- 3-08 8:28 AM
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429

Techno


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 05- 3-08 8:29 AM
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430

You know what really tease consoles? Rory is building a Lincoln Log structure with a ramp system to the roof and a long line of Lincoln Log people waiting to ascend. The ramp keeps collapsing, so I said "All those people are going to get hurt." What does she say? "It's okay, they all signed contracts."


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 05- 3-08 8:31 AM
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431

429: a rare ignorant spot in his ouevre.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05- 3-08 8:31 AM
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Loved Games. One of the contests led to me buying Webster's Third (And I proceeded to cheat, writing a nifty little program in Fortran (running under Univac Exec 8) to find the solution. But I missed winning because I did not find one of the words in the winning solution in my manual scan through the dic.) That contest like many others at the time was won by a Kyle Corbin form Raleigh NC, was glad to see him noted in an entry on Games at Everything2.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 05- 3-08 8:32 AM
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From the discussion page of the wikipedia article:
Issues

This article or section has multiple issues.
As does the subject, I assure you. --Xkcd (talk) 06:14, 3 May 2008 (UTC)xkcd



Posted by: beamish | Link to this comment | 05- 3-08 8:34 AM
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430 is hilarious.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 05- 3-08 8:40 AM
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Well, he doesn't seem to have ever attended MIT, so I must be confusing my geekomix.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 05- 3-08 8:40 AM
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What does she say? "It's okay, they all signed contracts."

Hilarious! Just wait until she learns about mandatory arbitration clauses and limitations on punitive damages. With that kind of liability protection, she can start integrating Matchbox cars and erector sets into her Lincoln Log structures.



Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 05- 3-08 8:41 AM
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I fear I may have created a monster. A monster who will probably make partner before I do, but a monster nevertheless.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 05- 3-08 8:44 AM
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PGD, the military has been trying to implement your idea up to a point with an LHA off West Africa. It's still in uniform, but it's intended as an aid/diplomacy thing.


Posted by: Alex | Link to this comment | 05- 3-08 8:59 AM
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438: and you trust the military for that?

Also, speaking of the military attempting to appear all soft and humanitarian: what's with the horrible whiny emo soundtrack to "Carrier"? The U.S.S. Nimitz is as heavy metal as it gets.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 05- 3-08 9:03 AM
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and you trust the military for that?

I thought that they did something similar, over a short time period, after the tsunami.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 05- 3-08 9:18 AM
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A monster who will probably make partner before I do

And then sue you.


Posted by: OneFatEngishman | Link to this comment | 05- 3-08 9:22 AM
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440: the occasional individual humanitarian mission, sure. But the military's basic function is to serve U.S. foreign policy. I think the most important initiative out of Africa Command in the last year or two was encouraging Ethiopia to invade Somalia because of the Scary Islamic Radicals. That wasn't very humanitarian.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 05- 3-08 9:30 AM
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Actually, sorry, I may not have understood 438. Probably because I don't actually know what an LHA is. I thought Alex was referring to the entire initiative of having a separate Africa Command.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 05- 3-08 9:34 AM
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444

441: It's okay, she signed a contract.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 05- 3-08 9:45 AM
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"It's okay, they all signed contracts."

Teh awesome. Rory needs to start commenting here.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 05- 3-08 9:52 AM
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I'm going to fill in timesheets, Di. Does that make you feel better? Maybe later on, I'll argue with an unpleasant adversary over the discovery schedule.


Posted by: Nápi | Link to this comment | 05- 3-08 10:04 AM
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446: Maybe later on, I'll argue with an unpleasant adversary over the discovery schedule drive around doing amyl nitrite poppers while running bicyclists off the road.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 05- 3-08 10:37 AM
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442: That wasn't very humanitarian.

But we killed a bad man there! Now its going to be a lot better. USA! Feeling stronger every day!


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 05- 3-08 10:51 AM
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That wasn't very humanitarian.

Perfectionist. Naderite. Gandhian. You probably sneered at Mother Theresa too.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 05- 3-08 11:00 AM
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I had to sign that oath to grade papers for a University of California campus. Take that, communism!


Posted by: mano negra | Link to this comment | 05- 3-08 11:04 AM
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In order to destroy the California Constitution, we need to place people in key places throughout the California system. We have instructed our agents to take the oath, cheerfully and uncomplainingly, and to remain invisible until they are ordered to spring into action. This project will take decades.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 05- 3-08 11:10 AM
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"place people in key positions".

Fuck. Flaubert errors are more grating than w-lfs-n errors.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 05- 3-08 11:11 AM
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I was thinking of this. And the ship in question was an LPD not an LHA.


Posted by: Alex | Link to this comment | 05- 3-08 11:16 AM
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Alex,

That link is for the strategic view of Sea Basing, it looks like you were talking about is the Sea Base off Liberia where the US Navy, US Marines, Europeans, and a bunch of US and European NGOs built and used a port a mile offshore a broken port and delivered an incredible amount of humanitarian supplies.

See this, this, this, this, and this.

In my opinion, that is the most interesting use of military technology ever used for Africa.


Posted by: Galrahn | Link to this comment | 05- 3-08 12:28 PM
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You probably sneered at Mother Theresa too.

Don't get me started, Emerson.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 05- 3-08 12:29 PM
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Mother Teresa was able to forgive Union Carbide for Bhopal, apo, so why can't you forgive too?


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 05- 3-08 12:34 PM
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Oh, so we have a little Hitchens among us. And I suppose that you also despise Kissinger. And Lady Di. And even President Mobutu.

Your kind is filled with hatred and only wants to destroy.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 05- 3-08 12:39 PM
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Why did Hitchens slur Theresa, Kissinger, Di, and Mobutu? Isn't it obvious? Two women, a Jew, and an African.

And this is Apo's hero!


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 05- 3-08 12:42 PM
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Thanks, John, you reminded me of a classic Hitchens twofer from the essay collection After Diana, in which he referred to Diana and Teresa as "a simpering Bambi narcissist and a thieving, fanatical Albanian dwarf."


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 05- 3-08 12:53 PM
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9/11 tok him from us, alas.

Mobutu, as we know, was the "three" who died shortly after Di and Theresa. Hitchens only wrote about him a little bit, unfortunately.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 05- 3-08 1:00 PM
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||

Speaking of family stuff. If you're seeing someone, and the guy keeps asking about your family, at what point is it appropriate to tell him that your mother is totally nuts? I mean, he sees that the questions disturb me, and then he apologizes. I did tell him that my dad had a drinking problem, but that's the normal level of craziness.

I'm going to a yoga class now, but I'll check back later.

|>


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 05- 3-08 1:37 PM
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461: I've thought a lot about this, too. I think it's best to put some of this stuff up front. I don't want anyone to meet my parents who isn't prepared to deal with some pretty batshit stuff. If crazy parents is a deal-breaker, I'd rather know pretty early on.

Most of my relationships have been really casual and not procreation-bound, so most of my LTBFs have been pretty entertained by the insanity of my parentals.

What I find myself saying recently when meeting people is something like, "I have an uncommon sort of relationship with my parents," or, "We weren't close when I was growing up, but since I moved out, we're negotiating a better relationship." You don't have to get into gory details, but I think it's helpful to prevent certain kinds of awkwardness by introducing the subject mildly.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 05- 3-08 1:56 PM
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My son asks himself this same question. His parents have both strong points and weak points. His most wonderful GF loved us, but her parents didn't. He would be hard put to mate with anyone very mainstream without distancing himself.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 05- 3-08 1:59 PM
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[Roger Clemens and Mindy McCready] holed up in the trendy SoHo Grand and later partied with Monica Lewinsky and Michael Jordan.

The article points out that if you file a defamation lawsuit you are asking to have your whole past put into evidence. Duh.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 05- 3-08 2:09 PM
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Post-retirement Roger Clemens is the gift that keeps giving. I wonder if Koby, Kory, Kacy and Kody ever met Auntie Mindy.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 05- 3-08 2:22 PM
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Post-retirement Roger Clemens is the gift that keeps giving

So, so great. If I recall reports correctly, the subcommittee members split in their treatment of Clemens: Dems tough on him, Republicans soft on him. How great would it be if Dems could somehow use tape of that against the Republicans in November? "Republican X is good friends with possible pedophile Roger Clemens." I don't even think it would work at all; it would just make me laugh.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 05- 3-08 2:45 PM
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GQ: Wait, quickly: Do you believe Roger Clemens?
Rove: Um, yes, I do.

GQ: If he gets nailed on perjury charges, is that the kind of guy Bush might pardon?
Rove: I'm sorry?

GQ: Do you think if he got nailed, that would be the type of person Bush would pardon?
Rove: I'm not gonna answer that. I mean, he's done nothing wrong.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 05- 3-08 3:09 PM
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Thanks White Bear. He's said a couple of times that there's some craziness in his family, but that consists of an uncle who had PTSD after WWII and killed himself. He said that he's always there to listen etc.

If it's a total dealbreaker, then I might as well know. i just sort of wonder whether it's less of a deal breaker once people have gotten to know someone better.


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 05- 3-08 4:27 PM
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I was tuba section leader in high school.

I was, unsurprisingly, a complete band nerd. Trumpet, french horn, clarinet; section leader for all three at different times. I tried to pick up the flute but it made me feel like I was going to pass out. Trumpet was my main instrument, the one I would always play to audition for all-district/all-state and at solo competition. I confess to seriously wanting BUGLEBOY as a vanity plate in high school. My trumpet from that era is actually across the room from me. Rah swears he's going to make me play it for him; I swear he won't.

||

Early voting ended today in NC. At my polling place we were doing only a half-day, 9am to 1pm. At 1pm the line was out the door, up both of the accessibility ramps, across the parking lot, out to the street and up the block. The woman who was the last in line at 1pm voted at 2:45. Everyone was cheerful, everyone was nice. I registered upwards of 100 new voters today (we have same-day registration during early voting) and gave out one (1) Republican ballot. That doesn't mean much of anything, though, given that in our town even the Unaffiliateds outnumber Republicans by several thousand.

|>


Posted by: Robust McManlyPants | Link to this comment | 05- 3-08 5:42 PM
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UNG's answer to that question, BG, was "after our first child is born." I don't recommend this timetable.

I think you're right that there is a stage in the relationship where people are a little more willing to bend on their dealbreakers. The danger in that, though, is that if you are rationalizing away dealbreakers in the intoxication of smittenness, they may come back to bite you later on when long-term commitment has sobered you up. In other words, someone who starts out knowing he can't cope with crazy relatives may convince himself that he can because he is so blinded by his love for you. But down the road, reality hits and he realizes that he really can't deal with that but the attachment has deepened and it just gets very hard.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 05- 3-08 5:50 PM
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in our town even the Unaffiliateds outnumber Republicans by several thousand

I love our town.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 05- 3-08 5:53 PM
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Rory needs to start commenting here.

I can picture the custody hearing now:

UNLawyer: Isn't it true, Ms. Kotimy, that you exposed the minor child to a website known as "Unfogged"?
Di: Well, yes, but...
UNLawyer: And isn't it true that one of the primary features of said website are, and I quote, "cock jokes"?
Di: That's not all...
UNLawyer: Oh, I am well aware. Isn't it true that said website also prominently features discussions of Jessica Biel, anal intercourse, and -- again, I quote -- "burning shit down"?

Perhaps if there were an "Unfogged Jr."


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 05- 3-08 5:57 PM
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Okay, that totally looked right on preview, dammit.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 05- 3-08 5:57 PM
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472: Oy. Yeah, mine are now literate enough to read over my shoulder, and I find myself needing to develop a policy.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05- 3-08 6:07 PM
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The danger in that, though, is that if you are rationalizing away dealbreakers in the intoxication of smittenness, they may come back to bite you later on when long-term commitment has sobered you up

That's basically what happened at Enron. As the end of each quarter approached, management put the arm on the dealmakers to get contracts signed so they could book mark-to-mark earnings; as a result, they gave in on things that would otherwise have sunk the deal, and who knows but two years down the line, the mark-to-marks having been booked, the cash just doesn't turn up?


Posted by: Alex | Link to this comment | 05- 4-08 4:42 AM
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461. Having been there (and how), I'd say as soon as possible without forcing the conversation. If it's a dealbreaker, best get it over with. If not, it's only fair to forewarn the guy. I met my batshit m-i-l accidentally walking down the street, so I had to work out what was happening on the fly, which was not ideal.

On the other hand, you're not crazy (unless you do a very convincing persona here), so no reasonable person is going to blame you for this. If the guy is supportive of you in this situation, that's a good sign. If he tries to back off and go "La la la", that's not so good, but something you need to know.


Posted by: OneFatEngishman | Link to this comment | 05- 4-08 5:07 AM
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The danger in that, though, is that if you are rationalizing away dealbreakers in the intoxication of smittenness, they may come back to bite you later on when long-term commitment has sobered you up

The GWB career. Too big and/or shocking to be allowed to fail. And yet failure is baked in.


Posted by: Nápi | Link to this comment | 05- 4-08 7:23 AM
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