Re: What Are You Doing Tonight?

1

I dunno he kind of looks the part to me.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 9:34 AM
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Oh sure, you say that now.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 9:35 AM
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JP is in my extended network! I wonder if he likes videogames, too.


Posted by: Tom | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 9:36 AM
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Pacing!


Posted by: Zippy the Comment Frog | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 9:36 AM
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This is more or less how I assume the various meetups go.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 9:36 AM
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2: hey did I get lured into his garage? No I did not.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 9:36 AM
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You can never tell just from looking at someone how athy they are, exactly.


Posted by: Merganser | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 9:36 AM
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8

He looks a little like Hugh O'Conor.


Posted by: Amber | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 9:37 AM
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Angelic looking white boys of privilege displaying unimaginable depravity is nothing new--nor is the fact that everyone is surprised, because they don't look like the type. And when there's a bunch of them, no one can admit that they're a gang, because gangs just aren't white.


Posted by: Belle Lettre | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 9:38 AM
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As if throat slitting from behind weren't evidence enough, the whole 'hacked off his head afterwards' thing would tend to make one not believe the self-defense claim.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 9:39 AM
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9: oh I love the La Jolla gang. That's so hilarious.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 9:39 AM
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You know who the kid looks just like? Damien from The Omen. What a darling little misdirected youth.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 9:40 AM
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3: hmmmmm ....


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 9:42 AM
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Was the profile cleared off? Or is it just the picture and name that people are referring to?


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 9:42 AM
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14: "Song has been deleted by the artist" . Guesses?


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 9:46 AM
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10: d00d u haf to chop the heds off zombies


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 9:46 AM
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17

Fuck you all, he kind of looks like me.


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 9:49 AM
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the whole 'hacked off his head afterwards' thing would tend to make one not believe the self-defense claim

I think the defense story was that he was afraid of retribution from the victim's (apparently non-existent) criminal cohorts.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 9:49 AM
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12.---I was thinking Daniel Radcliffe of Harry Potter.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 9:50 AM
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14: "Song has been deleted by the artist" . Guesses?

He looks like a Jonee Earthquake Band kid to me. Oh, look, lucky guess.


Posted by: sam k | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 9:50 AM
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16: Oh no! I'd probably try staking em in the heart. I should get straight on my undead killing methods, lest I find myself in a terrible situation.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 9:50 AM
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17: saves you some Photoshop time, anyhow.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 9:50 AM
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23

It's really impressive, though, that he managed not to rape anyone or shoot up a school. Nice going, crazy white boy!


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 9:52 AM
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#20. You see, I would've said Juggalo.


Posted by: Populuxe | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 9:52 AM
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15: Probably this.


Posted by: Ardent reader | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 9:53 AM
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If he had just made better choices, things would be so much different for all the lives that have been affected."

Is it really tacky to roll your eyes at a grieving mother's use of appalling empty cliches?


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 9:54 AM
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#9

"They weren't gangsters," says Richard Kenvin, 47, a filmmaker who grew up surfing Windansea. "They were gangsta chic."

Distinguishing.


Posted by: asl | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 9:55 AM
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All relationships are dangerous. Note that the victims in this story and Belle's were both friends of the killers.

Do you have "friends"? Perhaps you should reexamine your life.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 9:55 AM
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22: It is a great comfort to me that all of my stupid ideas are being hoarded for the mocking of my posterity.


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 9:56 AM
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ok, 28 made me laugh.

About ten years ago, a group of girls here sliced up a friend with boxcutters over some very small disagreement.

I've represented a bunch of upper middle class boys who get together with friends and decide that they can break into houses. Typically, they have watched some movie like Point Break and think that they can do it too.


Posted by: Will | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 9:58 AM
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26: See this.


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 10:00 AM
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32

31: I'm glad to be in such distinguished company.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 10:01 AM
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33

30: They watched Point Break and were inspired to try a home invasion? Were they confused between a home invasion and catching a fifty year storm?

Post: why do you exist? Why is this murder more thread-worthy than other murders?


Posted by: washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 10:02 AM
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33: It's about the photo. Now the real question is, why is this photo more thread-worthy than any other photo of a criminal defendant cleaned up and in a suit?

Okay, now everyone listen to the song in 25.


Posted by: Ardent reader | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 10:03 AM
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35

I kind of wondered the same thing as 33.1.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 10:03 AM
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36

the whole 'hacked off his head afterwards' thing would tend to make one not believe the self-defense claim.

One of my neighbors from childhood--a guy who used to work for my father, actually--is serving life in prison for beheading a guy. He had two previous felony convictions (the second of which was for stealing my mother's car), so they sentenced him under a "three strikes" rule. His parents were decent people. His legal expenses bankrupted them. Very sad.


Posted by: KR | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 10:04 AM
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I mean 33.2 Also 34.1.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 10:04 AM
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point break involved a bunch of guys who wore masks of Presidents and robbed places.


Posted by: Will | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 10:14 AM
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serving life in prison for beheading a guy. He had two previous felony convictions (the second of which was for stealing my mother's car), so they sentenced him under a "three strikes" rule.

I hate it when "three strikes" laws take away judicial sentencing discretion for some minor new offense.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 10:14 AM
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33.2 makes me think that you're all in on some sweet religion you're not telling me about because I'm not cool enough.


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 10:14 AM
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Why is this murder more thread-worthy than other murders?

Because Ogged had a cute MySpace he could sort-of claim was the kid's.


Posted by: destroyer | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 10:15 AM
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42

No, that's really supposed to be his MySpace page.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 10:18 AM
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43

It was just that time. Time for a murder thread.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 10:18 AM
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I hate it when "three strikes" laws take away judicial sentencing discretion for some minor new offense.

This case was serious, PGD. The victim was white.


Posted by: KR | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 10:21 AM
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No, that's really supposed to be his MySpace page.

Source? Not that I seriously doubt it, I'm just curious who spends the time digging up and sharing the MySpace page of a murderer when it's not that interesting.


Posted by: destroyer | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 10:22 AM
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46

Let me find the link. But finding the MySpace pages of kids in the news is pretty standard procedure nowadays, isn't it?


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 10:23 AM
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47

"There is a difference between mental illness in this country and evil," the judge said. "But your actions, sir, are tantamount to evil. No two ways about it."

"Tantamount to" evil? Not evil, just functionally equivalent?

What is the near-equivalent of evil?


Posted by: Anderson | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 10:23 AM
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48

This is the page where I saw it linked. Looks credible to me! It's also in the top few google results if you google the kid's name.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 10:24 AM
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49

Also linked here.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 10:25 AM
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46: Yeah, although usually they seem a little more legitimate. (It's just now occurring to me that the last person who comes to mind—Ashley Dupre—was selling things, so she might not count. Also that she really was treated like a child, which is bizarre.)


Posted by: destroyer | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 10:28 AM
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It was just that time. Time for a murder thread.

From the looks of the kid, it should be easy enough to work in a few prison rape jokes while you're at it.


Posted by: KR | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 10:29 AM
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Speaking of appropriate humor, Knecht, I've started working on starts from the blocks and people keep telling me that I can practice them at my regular pool, but it's only five and a half feet deep and I beg off, while thinking to myself "after all fun I've made of Krauthammer, there is no way I'm diving head first into a shallow pool."


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 10:32 AM
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10

"As if throat slitting from behind weren't evidence enough, the whole 'hacked off his head afterwards' thing would tend to make one not believe the self-defense claim."

You would think so, but see this.


Posted by: James B. Shearer | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 10:34 AM
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54

5 1/2 feet? They did tell you that you are supposed to dive forward, not down, right?


Posted by: Will | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 10:34 AM
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Point Break is both a movie about surfers who wear masks depicting the faces of former Presidents of the United States while robbing banks to finance their surfing, the source of such amazing dialogue as,"You're a real blue flame special, aren't you, son? Young, dumb and full of come, I know. What I don't know is how you got assigned here. Guess we must just have ourselves an asshole shortage, huh?" and the greatest action play of all time.


Posted by: washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 10:36 AM
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52: You know, you could burn Krauthammer's fingertips with a blowtorch and he wouldn't be able to do a damn thing about it!


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 10:36 AM
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The starting blocks at our poor were on the shallow end -- in which my 5'2" self could stand easily.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 10:38 AM
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58

Ogged, you fucking wuss, I've dove off blocks in three feet of water. And I'm a fat non-exerciser.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 10:38 AM
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36: That's the problem with the three strikes law. People get life sentences for relatively small offenses like beheading.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 10:38 AM
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||

If you really wanted to post a picture, Ogged, you should have used the one accompanying this article--which is hot enough to make up for at least 2-3 gratuitous ass shots of female celebrities.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 10:40 AM
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|>


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 10:41 AM
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Texans have relaxed notions of justifiable homicide, accidental homicide, and suicide which tend to work in the favor of well-respected or wealthy defendants.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 10:41 AM
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63

Figures you'd go for that picture, you shallow, shallow woman. Real pool players either switch hands or use the bridge in that situation.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 10:42 AM
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I actually saw that picture this morning and thought, "Barack, my brother, why you gotta be a poseur like that?"


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 10:44 AM
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65

I appreciate a man who's secure enough in his sexuality to be willing to pose for the laydeez.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 10:45 AM
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66

Is it really tacky to roll your eyes at a grieving mother's use of appalling empty cliches?

Just wait till she gets to the one about closure.


Posted by: Mo MacArbie | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 10:50 AM
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67

I hope it's more flattering than the photo here.


Posted by: Ardent reader | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 10:51 AM
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67: Oh, that's great.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 10:54 AM
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"Barack, my brother, why you gotta be a poseur like that?"

To show that he's one of us. Haven't we all tried that shot way more often than it was called for?


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 10:57 AM
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70

67's just cute and funny. But I maintain that the showoffy pool picture is totally hot.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 10:58 AM
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71

Hayward Field! Walking back from the bar, I used to run on the track to the glory of the empty stands.


Posted by: Klug | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 10:58 AM
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72

Also, I've never quite understood why bridges are legal.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 10:58 AM
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73

They did tell you that you are supposed to dive forward, not down, right?

I know that in the old days they did the bellyflop start, but kids these days are doing things a little differently.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 10:59 AM
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74

Ogged, the point is that he's not a professional pool player, so he can't just switch hands. And using the bridge takes a certain skill too, so sometimes going behind the back is easier. You are such a hater.

B is right. The picture is hot, but that's mostly because Obama is hot.


Posted by: m. leblanc | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 11:01 AM
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75

The picture is hot, but that's mostly because Obama is hot.

Are you saying that Tim's been wasting his time with that shot?


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 11:04 AM
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76

This article says he was hamming it up, which makes sense, given that his form is pretty good, so he actually seems to know how to play pool, and knows that that's a hammy shot. You may continue swooning over the Muslim.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 11:07 AM
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The picture is hot, but that's mostly because Obama is hot.

Or so the mullahs would have you believe.


Posted by: Auto-banned | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 11:08 AM
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78

Bridges are for sissies, but you don't have to be a pro to switch hands.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 11:08 AM
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79

The article also says that the hurdle picture was of him clowning around. I really do kind of like the guy.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 11:09 AM
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I find the other kid's MySpace to be even more disturbing. All the people going "I MISS YOU YOU WILL GET THROUGH THIS" etc. People's willful blindness in the face of those they love is amazing.


Posted by: m. leblanc | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 11:10 AM
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81

Quit trying to fuck with his shot. He'll sink it any minute now, if you'll shut up and let him shoot.


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 11:10 AM
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74: Erm, I haven't played a huge amount of pool, but going behind the back is, I think, much more difficult than using a bridge. Kind of silly, even. Not that it matters, since it's a sex shot. Pretty funny.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 11:10 AM
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The article also says that the hurdle picture was of him clowning around.

He wasn't actually racing?!?

Next you'll be saying he isn't really part of their recruiting class.


Posted by: Auto-banned | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 11:11 AM
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84

Behind the back is quite easy with just a bit of practice, much easier than switching hands and much better form than using a bridge.


Posted by: Bave Dee | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 11:12 AM
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85

This video pretty much pwns you all. You too, Jesus.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 11:12 AM
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86

Vindicated per 76!


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 11:12 AM
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I know that in the old days they did the bellyflop start, but kids these days are doing things a little differently.

You do realize that you are supposed to wear a cap with flowers when you swim breaststroke?


Posted by: Will | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 11:13 AM
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And what is this "bridges are for sissies," "bad form" business? Dude, you do what you need to do to sink the shot. End of story.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 11:15 AM
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the hurdle picture was of him clowning around. I really do kind of like the guy.

It's odd to what extent these sorts of sensibility issues matter. And Obama's sensibility does match up with mine (it seems) more than prior candidates. (I wonder if it's generational.) That makes me or sympathetic to people on the other side of the flag pin thing. (I still hate them, but, I hope, with more sympathy, now.)

I bet Obama can quote Fletch.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 11:15 AM
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83: Did you see them play this year? He might have helped.


Posted by: Klug | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 11:16 AM
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"Bridges are for sissies" is what I was taught, too.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 11:16 AM
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Like I said, sissy. Shall I kick your ass on the pool table if there's a Portland meetup this summer?

I've got to score one of these cool UO Obama shirts.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 11:18 AM
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80: Yeah, he says he'd like to meet "some wicked cool mother fuckers or some hot-ass chicks. but i'll settle for just about anyone." Good thing he's willing to settle, since he'll be spending the next decade or so in a federal prison.

Stupid kid.


Posted by: Mary Catherine | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 11:18 AM
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"Bridges are for sissies" is what I was taught, too.

It's definitely a stage on the way to maturation as a pool player, grasshopper. At later stages, players realize that using the bridge is itself a respectable (relative to the game of pool, of course) skill.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 11:18 AM
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9:

"They are as much a gang as any fraternity," said Mary Ellen Attridge, the lawyer for one of the men, Seth Cravens, 22.

One man's modus ponens...


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 11:19 AM
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Shall I kick your ass on the pool table if there's a Portland meetup this summer?

Are you trash-talking me, Jesus The Christ? If we play, you will lose.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 11:19 AM
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It's definitely a stage on the way to maturation as a pool player, grasshopper.

Are you suggesting that you're good? 'Cause I'm going to be pretty depressed if you are.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 11:20 AM
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98

I believe ogged is good at pool. Wasted youth and all that.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 11:21 AM
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99

And Obama's sensibility does match up with mine (it seems) more than prior candidates. (I wonder if it's generational.)

Not entirely: He has plenty of older supporters who feel just this way, and there must be plenty of young people who don't get it, but know it would be uncool to admit it.


Posted by: I don't pay | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 11:21 AM
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Are you trash-talking me, Jesus The Christ? If we play, you will lose. INSOLENCE!

What was I supposed to do?


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 11:22 AM
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I played an unconscionable amount of pool in college. Like, twelve hours a day, regularly. I haven't played in a while, but there's a pool hall within walking distance and I'll shake off the rust if Jesus keeps talking smack.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 11:24 AM
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99: I wonder if it's regional. Midwestern sensibility as the mid-point between the California Kooks and the Eastern Peerage, or perhaps the midwest as America's geographic suburb.

101: Gawd, I hate you.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 11:24 AM
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98 cont'd: Though he doesn't know what pot smells like, so, you know.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 11:25 AM
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Gawd, I hate you.

Howcome?


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 11:25 AM
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I mean, in this instance.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 11:26 AM
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97: RTFA. I think around Seung Hui-Cho was a topic of discussion ogged talks about spending a lot of time hanging out in a pool hall with a bunch of crazy asian guys, but I might be mixing up two stories.


Posted by: washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 11:26 AM
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Seriously, ogged, not that you are supposed to bellyflop it, but you don't dive 5 1/2 feet down. The second video you linked looks like she only gets about 18 inches below the surface. Every high school pool I ever swam in was less than 5 1/2 feet at the block end.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 11:26 AM
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since he'll be spending the next decade or so in a federal prison

More like two-three decades, actually, but in a Michigan prison. Which is worse.


Posted by: m. leblanc | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 11:26 AM
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you don't dive 5 1/2 feet down

I understand that, but having never gone off the blocks before, I wasn't going to start in a relatively shallow pool. And, indeed, my very first dive, I must have wound up about seven feet under the surface.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 11:28 AM
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110

The accomplice kid was a pure classic rock fan. There's a lesson there, I'm sure.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 11:30 AM
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ogged talks about spending a lot of time hanging out in a pool hall with a bunch of crazy asian guys

Yeah, I know I've mentioned it before.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 11:30 AM
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The second video you linked looks like she only gets about 18 inches below the surface

Nuh uh.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 11:31 AM
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One of my college roommates used to drop acid and go play pool. He won lots of tournaments. He claimed that "if you could focus" tripping helped you understand angles better.

I should look him up, wonder what happened to him.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 11:31 AM
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a pure classic rock fan

That's what freaked me out. The list of music, books and movies could be verbatim choices from like five different guys I know.


Posted by: m. leblanc | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 11:32 AM
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I played a lot of pool in while in college, though not 7 hours a day, and I can say that I was better behind the back than with my offhand. And this was particularly true if I was worried about the spin I was imparting to the cue ball. Furthermore, I played in my place of residence, not a silly pool hall, so I knew that 1) bridges are for losers and 2) how you look is an important element of the game. The purpose of college is to have sex, remember?


Posted by: mpowell | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 11:33 AM
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Don't you have a swim meet coming up? And a job and a girlfriend and a blog? So your time to reclaim your alleged pool skills is limited. Hmm. I may have to resume trash-talking as August approaches.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 11:33 AM
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I don't know why I said 7 hours. I mean to compare to ogged's 12 hrs/day. I would estimate that I played 1-2 hrs/day for about 2 years.


Posted by: mpowell | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 11:34 AM
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"Bridges are for sissies" is what I was taught, too.

Youse do spend quite a lot of time worrying about what makes you a 'sissy'.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 11:35 AM
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119

Okay, I gotta say, I have no problem with posing while playing pool, but this "bridges are for losers" crap is crap.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 11:35 AM
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120

Howcome?

I get the sense that my misspent youth was less productive than yours.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 11:35 AM
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so I knew that 1) bridges are for losers

Yeah, baby.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 11:36 AM
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There's a difference between sissies and losers, B.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 11:37 AM
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Don't you have a swim meet coming up?

That's in June! I won't make to Portland before August. I'll be in touch, McQueen.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 11:38 AM
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Youse do spend quite a lot of time worrying about what makes you a 'sissy'.

This is Sparta.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 11:39 AM
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125

I misspent my youth smoking pot and fucking. I suck at pool. Do I lose points?


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 11:40 AM
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125: Are you good at smoking pot?


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 11:42 AM
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re: 124

This is Sparta Sybaris [but we really want it to be Sparta].


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 11:42 AM
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Youse do spend quite a lot of time worrying about what makes you a 'sissy'.

To really ape our idiom, finish with: , just sayin'.


Posted by: I don't pay | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 11:43 AM
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re: 128

I'm not aping your idiom. 'Youse' would be what I actually say [when my guard is down].


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 11:44 AM
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Do I lose points?

You have to ask?


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 11:44 AM
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This is Sparta Sybaris [but we really want it to be Sparta].

Definitely something to that. Of course, there are Americans who really are kind of rough and tumble and whose families have served in the military for many generations, and as a country we certainly love to make us some war. Then there are those of us who blog.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 11:44 AM
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I'm not aping your idiom. 'Youse' would be what I actually say [when my guard is down].

That's interesting; I've never seen a transatlantic example. Pronounced yoos?


Posted by: I don't pay | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 11:47 AM
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It may be, per Cary Grant, that even Sparta wanted to be Sparta.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 11:47 AM
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Then there are those of us who blog not from the rural south.

The U.S. now has probably the finest soldiers in the world now, but that's not from our martial tradition. It's because we have an all-volunteer army that spends a ton on training and equipment. At the end of that process, you get very very good troops with the best morale and equipment around.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 11:48 AM
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whoops, now now.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 11:48 AM
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There would be fewer teens cutting off heads if we'd just let them in head shops.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 11:48 AM
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The U.S. now has probably the finest soldiers in the world now, but that's not from our martial tradition

That wasn't the claim. We were talking about the culture of toughness.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 11:50 AM
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130: Well, I did play a lot of civ as well...


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 11:50 AM
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We were talking about the culture of toughness. false machismo.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 11:52 AM
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re: 132

It's standard Scots dialect. Second person plural.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 11:52 AM
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Then there are those of us who blog not from the rural south.

What? The insistence on competitiveness isn't distinctly of the south. And isn't absent from blog life, for that matter.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 11:52 AM
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Kid looks like Frodo.


Posted by: xyzzy | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 11:52 AM
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We were talking about the culture of toughness.

In other words, does it matter that John Wayne's real first name was "Marion."


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 11:52 AM
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139 is right.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 11:53 AM
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I don't know if I'd describe it as toughness, exactly, but there's certainly to something to the idea that the American way of dealing with problems is to beat them up. Even if you don't believe that that's a good thing, you probably believe that it's a live option that needs to be argued against or squelched.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 11:55 AM
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The insistence on competitiveness isn't distinctly of the south.

I think he was talking about martial values, which I believe are more prevalent in the South.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 11:55 AM
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We lead the world in false machismo, with pride. Mr. President, we cannot allow a false machismo gap!


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 11:56 AM
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re: 145

I wasn't really talking about beating people up as favoured solution.* I was thinking more about the constant boundary-patrolling around who is a 'sissy'.

* the stereotype about Americans being much more about them shooting you, rather than about them beating you up ...


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 11:57 AM
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147: Therefor, flag pin!


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 11:58 AM
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139 is right.

Who cares? I don't think many of us are actually confused about our actual toughness, or how little it is tested. Ogged's description still reflects the culture in which many of us grew up. No one's talking about the actual positive value of such an acculturation.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 11:58 AM
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Feeling a little defensive, Tim?


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 11:59 AM
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148: I think the two go together, personally. If it's important to be the sort of person who gets behind wars on drugs, poverty, etc., then it's the important not to look like a sissy.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 11:59 AM
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139: I thought "machismo" itself was a word for false toughness.

False machismo being redundant.


Posted by: Ardent reader | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 12:00 PM
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Feeling a little defensive, Tim?

Keep working it, B. Maybe he'll crack.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 12:00 PM
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re: 150

I am teasing slightly, but you do talk about it a LOT (hence the teasing).


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 12:00 PM
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It's standard Scots dialect. Second person plural.

Also a common, characteristic usage on Chicago's South side, among whites at least. Which suggests that it's also Irish.


Posted by: I don't pay | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 12:00 PM
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151; Not that I can tell.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 12:01 PM
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False machismo being redundant.

It's not nearly as inflammatory without the "false." Come on.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 12:01 PM
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Lots of places have a culture of toughness. Americans have that anglo-saxon disparagement of emotional expressiveness too, though. Mediterranean men are more flamboyant and expressive in their machismo.

On the basketball and Mother's Day themes that I'm sure everyone is eager to return to, anyone see ">http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/8133208/LeBron-yells-at-mom-to-sit-down-after-hard-foul"> this ?


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 12:01 PM
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That's in June! I won't make to Portland before August. I'll be in touch, McQueen.

Masters Nationals are in Oregon!!

Go Ogged!


Posted by: Will | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 12:01 PM
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damnit!


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 12:02 PM
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158: Oh, I wasn't sure whether her point was to be inflammatory. Still not sure what the mores are on these internets.


Posted by: Ardent reader | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 12:02 PM
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125: As long as there was plenty of fucking, no.

119: I'll be generous, you can use a bridge if you want to. But you're not one of the kool kids then.


Posted by: mpowell | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 12:03 PM
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Keep working it, B. Maybe he'll crack.

Hey, I'm as American as the rest of you. Except ttaM.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 12:03 PM
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Speaking of toughness, there are apparently 132,000 people currently serving life sentences in U.S. prisons. That's a lot of people.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 12:04 PM
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I am teasing slightly, but you do talk about it a LOT (hence the teasing).

It's a pretty standard way that guys interact on this side, though that might be truer for guys who didn't acculturate in primarily coed groups. How do they do it over there? There has to be some sense of nutting up, etc., be it a bad thing or a good thing. (I"ve always assumed we mostly stole this from the Brits, frankly.)


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 12:04 PM
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Youse is Scots?
I thought it was New Jerseyan -- and my father's preferred usage.

(I am finishing reports and bouncing in my seat to Crass: "Do they owe us a living? Of course they fucking do!")


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 12:05 PM
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I wasn't sure whether her point was to be inflammatory

Ogged likes to dismiss my wisdom as trolling. Because he's sexist.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 12:05 PM
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ttaM is mostly kidding. Scots is not an actual dialect, but rather a clever parody of English. If one's nation were to be colonized by wankers, and lacked the balls to successfully rebel, what other option would one have? Hence several centuries of parody, culminating in this.


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 12:18 PM
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Speaking of toughness, there are apparently 132,000 people currently serving life sentences in U.S. prisons. That's a lot of people.

Spoken like a true bleeding heart liberal!

Witt, the right wingers look at that and think that the death penalty should have kept that number lower.


Posted by: Will | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 12:18 PM
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Spoken like a true bleeding heart liberal cheapskate.

Fixed.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 12:21 PM
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Speaking of toughness, there are apparently 132,000 people currently serving life sentences in U.S. prisons. That's a lot of people.

Oddly, that number didn't sound very high at all to me. I am guessing it's a relatively small percentage of the overall prison population.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 12:21 PM
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cheapskate?

haha That is how I argue about prison with right wingers. "Is it worth it to pay to incarcerate this person???!!?"


Posted by: Will | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 12:23 PM
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our proverb says jargal daakhguin zovlon
which means 'hardship to endure happiness'
meaning it spoils and corrupts morally and otherwise if it's in excess
the youthful monster in the post i think its very example
one who did not know pain never would understand other's pain
if to talk about nature of toughness


Posted by: read | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 12:26 PM
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is


Posted by: read | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 12:27 PM
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173

"haha That is how I argue about prison with right wingers. "Is it worth it to pay to incarcerate this person???!!?""

Another argument for the death penalty.


Posted by: James B. Shearer | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 12:30 PM
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Is the Scots word pronounced "yoos" or "yooz"?


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 12:33 PM
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re: 156

There's some speculation it came into Scots in the 19th century from Ireland, yeah. Earlier Scots uses a different second person form, generally.

re: 166

Americans, and particularly middle-class Americans, do seem to do it a lot -- they are very concerned about their masculinity. Much more than I remember my peers doing when I was growing up.*

That said, in the interests of comity, I'm sure I'm occasionally guilty of it myself, sometimes. I can certainly play up on the tougher/working-class aspects of my background in certain contexts [and play them down in others] for similar false-machismo reasons.

* I'm pretty sure actual fighting was more of a factor, mind.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 12:33 PM
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The death penalty is kind of barbaric. I also think that 132,000 people serving life sentences is not too many if they are in for crimes like murder.


Posted by: Lemmy Caution | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 12:34 PM
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I got my posts crossed, and thought read was referring to the cookie monster in the other thread.I kind of wish she was, because I'm doing that thing which letters shall not represent.


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 12:36 PM
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may be i'm barbaric and not liberal enough
but if i were the victim's family (thphu x3 and knock x3) i would demand his life for life of his murderer, it's only fair to do so


Posted by: read | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 12:37 PM
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re: 177

The second. The last consonant is voiced.

IPA-stylee: /jʉz/ or /jiz/ or /ji:z/ depending on context.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 12:37 PM
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Oddly, that number didn't sound very high at all to me. I am guessing it's a relatively small percentage of the overall prison population.

To Euro-ears, life imprisonment sounds very harsh, even outrageously so. The German supreme judicial court has ruled that life without possibility of parole is an unconstitutional violation of human dignity, and the European Court of Human Rights is deliberating over doing the same. To American ears, a life sentence sounds like a more lenient alternative to execution. Cultural context matters.


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 12:37 PM
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179

"The death penalty is kind of barbaric. ..."

Compared to caging somebody until he dies? In my opinion the death penalty is comparatively quick and humane.


Posted by: James B. Shearer | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 12:39 PM
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My friends and I played a lot of pool in college, too. Our favorite pool hall was run by a black Jewish guy named "Shorty."


Posted by: Populuxe | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 12:40 PM
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Another argument for the death penalty.

Not a very good one, though. Incarceration is still cheaper for the taxpayer than the typical capital appeals process. You could argue that appeals should be restricted even further than they already are, but then you'd be implicitly accepting more innocents on death row.


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 12:40 PM
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182: I think that contrasts, then, with the American dialect word "youse" then, which is /juz/ or /ju:z/.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 12:44 PM
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then


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 12:45 PM
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||

No more masturbating to Robert Rauschenberg.

|>


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 12:46 PM
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Compared to caging somebody until he dies? In my opinion the death penalty is comparatively quick and humane.

Execution is quicker than a life sentence. That is irrefutable.


Posted by: asl | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 12:47 PM
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189: That made me gasp. I'm very sad about it. RR seems to have been a really decent guy.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 12:47 PM
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In my opinion the death penalty is comparatively quick and humane.

Keep in mind that read might be talking about traditional Mongol methods of execution.


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 12:48 PM
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191: I jumped over to 'Smasher's blog when I saw the headline earlier, but he hasn't posted anything yet.


Posted by: washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 12:53 PM
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#189. Rest in peace you tired goat.


Posted by: Populuxe | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 12:54 PM
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||

Witt hates me.

|>


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 12:56 PM
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192
no, that would be too good for him
i was thinking about the exactly same fashion of persecution the murderer exploited in his deed
but that would be impossible to carry out, alas


Posted by: read | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 12:58 PM
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You know, Mongolia is pretty high up on the prisoners per capita ratings at #24.


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 1:00 PM
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196: nonsense. Any good knife will work well enough for a beheading; you just have to sharpen it really thoroughly.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 1:01 PM
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Americans, and particularly middle-class Americans, do seem to do it a lot -- they are very concerned about their masculinity. Much more than I remember my peers doing when I was growing up.*

* I'm pretty sure actual fighting was more of a factor, mind.

What I think is that in America people who might ordinarily indulge their desire for machismo by getting into fights are afraid of doing so because they might get shot and killed. therefore they are frustrated. and this leads to acts of economic machismo instead, as we saw with Enron and "Liar's Poker", et cetera.


Posted by: peter | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 1:03 PM
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186: We Texans hang our heads in shame that Georgia beat us to resuming executions after the Supreme Court slapped down the sissy public defenders.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 1:05 PM
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O how I do not want to revise this chapter!


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 1:06 PM
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Read is my people.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 1:09 PM
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O how I lament my fate that it is a sunny day and I am out of reasons to procrastinate!


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 1:10 PM
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202: So why do you doubt the executive, smart guy?


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 1:11 PM
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199 is a truly bizarre hypothesis.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 1:13 PM
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Read is my people.

Well, both of you are probably related to Timur and you know how he loved a good beheading.


Posted by: Populuxe | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 1:15 PM
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Not a very good one, though. Incarceration is still cheaper for the taxpayer than the typical capital appeals process. You could argue that appeals should be restricted even further than they already are, but then you'd be implicitly accepting more innocents on death row.

Knecht, sir, you are a fool.

Everyone knows, in their heart of hearts, that the death penalty should be and would be cheaper than incarceration if we didnt give those murderers extra rights.

The solution is to kill them faster. If they arent guilty of that crime, they are probably guilty of some other crime.


Posted by: Will | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 1:28 PM
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Also, with regard to fights, the not wanting to get shot excuse is just an excuse. Most people do not want to get in fights because they do not want their ass kicked.


Posted by: Will | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 1:29 PM
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Fight? Pull a gun? You don't have to choose. Note how everyone wisely gets the fuck out of there when the guy pulls a gun. Well, except for the guy who gets it held to his head. That has to be pretty scary.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 1:37 PM
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That has to be pretty scary.

Ya think?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 1:40 PM
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Obviously, I can't be be certain that he's not a Shi'a, but assuming he's not, then yes, it has to be pretty scary for him.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 1:42 PM
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Shi'a have no fear of losing their lives to a vastly better armed quicker on the draw enemy because, hey, that's what's happened every other time, and soon enough the 12th Imam'll be back to rock all you punk motherfuckers.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 1:45 PM
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I laugh at your little joke like I laugh at death, Tweety Fish.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 1:48 PM
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re: 187

It doesn't contrast. It's just that Scots monopthongs are different from English English or US English. The basic pronunciation is the same. 'U' vowels are slightly fronted.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 1:52 PM
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in America people who might ordinarily indulge their desire for machismo by getting into fights are afraid of doing so because they might get shot and killed

On the contrary, gun culture in America is a symptom, not a cause, of American machismo.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 1:53 PM
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Ogged, you know you can practice the entry and pull-out part of your start from the side of the pool, right?


Posted by: water moccasin | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 1:53 PM
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216: worst euphemism ever.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 1:55 PM
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Ogged, you know you can practice the entry and pull-out part of your start from the side of the pool, right?

I need ten feet, baby, minimum.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 1:57 PM
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ten feet deep?

Ogged, seriously. Ten feet? I thought the goal was to go fast across the pool.


Posted by: Will | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 2:01 PM
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Joke, Will, joke.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 2:02 PM
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"And it's deep, too."


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 2:03 PM
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219: the goal is for the pool to enjoy it, too.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 2:04 PM
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Those with poor control always have to fall back on arguments about size. Ogged will get his comeuppance in June.


Posted by: water moccasin | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 2:04 PM
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No need to brag, rfts. It only needs to be deep enough for ogged.


Posted by: Auto-banned | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 2:06 PM
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i always thought death from gun shots is less like horrible than from a knife stab
it's b/c there is some distance between the shooter and the victim
the direct contact of someone horrible must be really really scary
though if gun, still kinda a little less scary as if it's still just pose a threat, not real action


Posted by: read | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 2:07 PM
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a


Posted by: read | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 2:12 PM
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225: read, I hope you're joking around. There's no sensible discussion to be had about which ways are worse to die unless you include consideration of how long it takes to die, and in what degree of fear and pain.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 2:19 PM
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225:
Knife fight victim: I mean the guy had no respect whatsoever for my personal space, bad enough I gotta die, but to have this smelly piece of shit mouth-breather panting right next to me? Man, I was like to puke.
Gun shot victim: Unh-huh....un-huh ... I hear you, I hear you, I was very lucky, man.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 2:23 PM
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I think the worst way to die is to be stabbed by lightning underwater until you starve to death. I mean, wow, what a kick in the teeth. A kick in the teeth, as well, that is. In addition to the electro-starvo-stabocution. That would really be a terrible way to go.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 2:29 PM
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no, i was not thinking about how long will it take to die and the pain strength or duration, it just all does not matter after death
i thought about the victim's fear right before the death


Posted by: read | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 2:33 PM
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229: I'm thinking that the worst would be if you knew it was inevitable for like a really long time, and it kept getting closer and closer and closer and your body and mind slowly began wearing out the whole time and more and more people you knew began to die and you knew it was coming but you couldn't change it or anything. 'Cuz, man, that would suck wouldn't it?


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 2:35 PM
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i thought about the victim's fear right before the death

Drowning.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 2:36 PM
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Americans, and particularly middle-class Americans, do seem to do it a lot -- they are very concerned about their masculinity. Much more than I remember my peers doing when I was growing up.*

I guess that's what I'm wondering: what did you do? I'm assuming that, around thirteen or so, you started getting socialized more by your peers than your parents. But how did that work? Were indications that your behavior was or wasn't up to snuff in some way wildly varied, rather than being organized around some central poles, like gender roles or intelligence? I just don't have a sense of how the process--independent of any value or harm to the person being socialized--works. Were all the gender-role things sorted out by then? (MY suspicion is that, over here, some of the gender role stuff comes up because that's a somewhere around the age when your sex drive really kicks in. That's a guess based on distant memories, though.)


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 2:37 PM
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229 sounds great death, very funny


Posted by: read | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 2:37 PM
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The worst way to die is not alone. The worst way to die would involve having to watch your children get tortured and on their way to die. Helplessness on top of your own pain.


Posted by: Will | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 2:42 PM
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drowning is natural death, not crime maybe
i was comparing just gun shots and knife stabs
i'd prefer gun, JPS is kidding, but exactly that feeling, one's personal space, maybe that's what i thought


Posted by: read | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 2:43 PM
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That's cheating, Will.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 2:44 PM
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231 is making me smile.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 2:44 PM
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I'd hate to drown in Jell-O. So much pain caused by something once so wonderful.

I think the contrast would really get to me.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 2:44 PM
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I intend to just turn off, like a hologram.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 2:45 PM
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Joke, Will, joke.

Oft the truth is said in jest.


Posted by: Will | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 2:47 PM
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240: tune in, turn on, turn off.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 2:51 PM
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240 if one's natural death that would be nice
dying in one's sleep or dying during the activity you enjoy are good alternatives
i recalled the australian who died during his TV reportage, an accident but somewhat happy death


Posted by: read | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 2:58 PM
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re: 233

Everybody does it a bit. But adult American men still go on about it a lot. Certainly much more than my male peers now [even in jest], and the frat/jock type type of masculine socialization isn't how it works here. At least not where I'm from. I've mentioned this before. People were surprised before when I mentioned that being a big sports performer meant literally zero at my school. The jock thing didn't exist.

Of course there's still pressure to conform, around gender roles and in other various ways. Just differently.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 2:59 PM
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From the outside the worst way to die is probably what my father-in-law is going through. His body is living but Lewy body dementia means he gets all the goodness of Parkinson's with the crunchiness of Alzheimer's added as well. Short answer - coordination goes, mind goes.

He is imploding and regressing to where he must be fed and cleaned as a baby. Shudder.

On the inside it is probably not so bad. On the inside I think he is just fading away. There was a time when he was aware of all he has lost but thankfully that has passed.

Personally I intend to continue living until the Vikings finally win a Superbowl because then when I go Hell will be frozen over so I'll be covered either way.

I've been thinking about epitaphs lately. My current favorite is "I knew this would happen." I have no reason to think I need one soon, it is just that as one ages one starts to think about some things a little more.


Posted by: Tripp | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 3:00 PM
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Personally I intend to continue living until the Vikings finally win a Superbowl because then when I go Hell will be frozen over so I'll be covered either way.

The Lombardi Trophy will be brough to them on a ship of dead men's nails.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 3:04 PM
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Personally I intend to continue living until the Vikings finally win a Superbowl because then when I go Hell will be frozen over

Hel, in the Viking myths, was indeed frozen over; it was a vast frozen wasteland where the souls of men who did not die in battle were condemned to wander for eternity. Still, sports results eh?

On the subject of jock machismo, recall that the reason why the porridge-munchers have always been valued in the armies and criminal gangs of the English, despite their short stature and comical nutrition, is that they are fucking aggressive. They will always be quick to fight and are not worried about throwing the first punch, even the little squitty ones. Hence there is no role for what an economist would call "noisy signalling"; Jockistan is a land where nearly all bluffs are called. I think Dr Johnson put it best when he said "Never let a Scotsman kick you in the groin".


Posted by: dsquared | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 3:13 PM
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244: the other weird thing about American masculinity is the obsession with homosexuality. Constant joking accusations of being gay, often very explicit. That is so weird. It can't be true other places.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 3:13 PM
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It can't be true other places.

Is it gay to speculate? It would be gay not to.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 3:24 PM
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They will always be quick to fight and are not worried about throwing the first punch, even the little squitty ones. Hence there is no role for what an economist would call "noisy signalling"; Jockistan is a land where nearly all bluffs are called.

Well, yes. Don't act tough. Learn to send the right submission signals and fuck off -- "Sorry mate, yeah, my pint is a poof" -- unless you're prepared to actually back it up.

You get to be quite attuned to when things are going to kick off. I've been with loud mates who haven't picked up that things are right on the vibrating edge of flipping over into mayhem right at the point where I'm already thinking it's time to move on.

"Mebbe we should leave lads, eh?"

"Why?"

"Well, that guy over there, just put an empty pint glass into the inside pocket of his jacket, not usually a good sign"


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 3:26 PM
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PGD,

I thought that was already asked and answered.

Repression leads to obsession.

If (as a straight man) I accept the occasional "nice ass - wait that's a guy" feeling then it is no big deal. If I deny that feeling and repress it and squeeze it down where no one will ever find it then I'm Bush.

If I'm gay and I do the same thing I'm David Duke.


Posted by: Tripp | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 3:29 PM
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If you couldn't be sure that other people didn't have guns, you wouldn't have these problems with violence, you know.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 3:30 PM
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little squitty ones

is a fine phrase.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 3:45 PM
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the other weird thing about American masculinity is the obsession with homosexuality. Constant joking accusations of being gay, often very explicit.

I think that's mostly gender role stuff, disguised.

But adult American men still go on about it a lot. Certainly much more than my male peers now [even in jest]

I don't know that I would say it happens here in jest, but certainly it's not in earnest. It's more like playing conversational catch, and recognizing similar people because they can play. That's roughly what I meant to convey by suggesting that I could imagine Obama having seen Fletch, for example: a stupid but common referent that dates and places you, probably as effectively suburban. Most of the "policing" is the same; it's not really policing, and one could do it pretty easily in high heels and a dress. (Indeed, I assume that's how Kotsko does it.)

I guess I don't have a sense how Europeans play such catch (or if it happens, come to that).


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 3:48 PM
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In fairness, Tripp, you may very well have a nice ass.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 3:48 PM
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"Little squitty ones" is indeed a fine phrase.

But what does "my pint is a poof" mean? Gay beer? How can you tell?


Posted by: Bave Dee | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 3:49 PM
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I don't know that I would say it happens here in jest, but certainly it's not in earnest.

Sure, I get that there's an element of in-jokery about it.

re: 256

It's a joke [not mine, it's from Viz magazine]. Mocking the fact that some of the time-honoured ways in which violence starts involve spilling someone's pint [or, in this case, casting aspersions on the beer's sexuality].


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 4:09 PM
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It's more like playing conversational catch, and recognizing similar people because they can play.

Huh, interesting. And probably correct. Like: we are stuck in this rut. You?

Most of the "policing" is the same; it's not really policing,

But I think it is, insofar as it identifies those both those who don't play, and those who won't.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 4:11 PM
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re: spilling pints.

A mate of mine once spilled a Glaswegian gangster's coke [the powdery kind, not the beverage] in the gloriously named 'Prince Armani's'. This was not wise. He forked out about 150 quid just to walk away.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 4:12 PM
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But I think it is, insofar as it identifies both those who don't play, and those who won't.

Very well put.


Posted by: I don't pay | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 4:15 PM
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Gay beer? How can you tell?

Gay beer.


Posted by: washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 4:17 PM
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260: Once you edit out the extra "those." It's good to see you, IDP!


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 4:26 PM
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The difference is that American men hate women, and are utterly terrified of being seen as feminine, or as tolerating femininty.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 4:40 PM
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American men hate women

Not as much as Iranian-American men hate women, you racist.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 4:41 PM
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Oh, Oggedy, I'll always hate you most of all.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 4:42 PM
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I hated you first.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 4:44 PM
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B says 'Oggedy' with such tendresse.


Posted by: Mary Catherine | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 4:46 PM
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But WHY, b., WHY? Don't stop now: it's because the feminine is configured in a false way, as simultaneously slutty and ignorant (childlike, adolescent, nubile), something that's loved but hated for oneself. The narrative is: I love you to be this charming hot way, but I wouldn't want to be you.

Gosh this is exhausting.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 4:51 PM
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I thought it was well known that both sexes held each other in contempt. The goal is simply to make it genial contempt.


Posted by: baa | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 4:52 PM
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269.1: baa, I desperately hope that that's not the case.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 5:02 PM
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Don't worry, parsimon, it's definitely not the case. The goal is comprehensive victory.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 5:04 PM
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268: I don't think it's really about the feminine at all; I think it's about anxious masculinity. See, e.g., the myth of the American West. Don't fence me in, don't tie me down, etc. American masculinity is defined primarily in terms of what it's not. Plus there's that arrogant individualism thing, which is completely at odds with being social animals, and the Revolutionary birth thing, which is all about defining oneself through fighting (which we share with some other fucked-up places, to be sure).


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 5:14 PM
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The meta crap here is too much for me. I hope you all are not this fucked up.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 5:16 PM
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I know I am!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 5:25 PM
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None of us is as fucked up as all of us.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 5:27 PM
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I have met the enemy and he is us.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 5:28 PM
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I hope you all are not this fucked up.

It's worse than you can imagine.

American masculinity is defined primarily in terms of what it's not

Consider these two classic literary descriptions of American masculinity, and one classic embodiment:
The Simpsons: "Good looking rebel who plays by his own set of rules"
Chandler: "down these mean streets a man must go who is not himself mean, who is neither tarnished nor afraid." (described negatively, but a positive vision)
Bogart: "there are certain sections of New York, Major, that I wouldn't advise you to try to invade."

I think we can fashion a positive definition out of those...

The goal is comprehensive victory.

American masculinity is all about optimism.


Posted by: baa | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 5:31 PM
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Yeah, there's a lot of disseminated synergistic nonlinear Aquarian Age quantum fractal pathology out there that none of us could attain on our own.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 5:32 PM
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disseminated synergistic nonlinear Aquarian Age quantum fractal pathology

New mouse-over text.


Posted by: washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 5:34 PM
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Actually 275 would make a good m-o text.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 5:35 PM
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True.


Posted by: washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 5:36 PM
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But I think it is, insofar as it identifies both those who don't play, and those who won't.

I don't think that's policing. That's just identifying people who are like-minded along a fairly simple and trivial axis. It happens every day, and it's pretty useful. A version of the same happens when people form friendships. It's all pretty normal. I just didn't (and don't) know how that works among ttaM's set.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 5:36 PM
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Though my friends college dorm made t-shirts which said, "We're an idiot," so it's kind of taken.


Posted by: washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 5:37 PM
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"Fontana Labs? Or Betray us?" was the best mouse-over text.


Posted by: baa | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 5:38 PM
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I'm stealing it from this.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 5:39 PM
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"Fontana Labs? Or Betray us?" was the best mouse-over text.

I like you competitive spirit. It reeks of manliness. Personally, my favorite was "I can't be sexist, I like women's volleyball." I don't let the fact that it was mine keep me from liking it. That's how I roll.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 5:42 PM
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The volleyball one is good! New to me. Is there a listing of all past ones?


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 5:52 PM
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284 shows baa to be a man of unquestionable taste and refinement.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 5:52 PM
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a man of unquestionable taste and refinement.

And I reek. I think we know what this means.


Posted by: baa | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 5:54 PM
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Is there a listing of all past ones?

No. We're not that pleased with ourselves.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 5:55 PM
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World's most famous Lipka.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 6:10 PM
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Whatever's wrong with American masculinity must surely have something to do with moving the men indoors to work at desk jobs.


Posted by: Mary Catherine | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 6:17 PM
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"The face-rapings will continue until morale improves" cracked me up.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 6:17 PM
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Whatever's wrong with American masculinity must surely have something to do with moving the men indoors to work at desk jobs.

Scottish men all work the fields. Sowing their wild oats, I think.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 6:19 PM
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American masculinity is all about optimism in the face of overwhelming contrary evidence....


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 6:19 PM
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moving the men indoors to work at desk jobs

I think I see about as much macho posturing from the lawyers against whom I litigate--male and female--as I encountered from fellow officers in my military career. Granted, lawyers do not have to scream as we charge into the courtroom (and some things do not translate well: If the spirit of the bayonet is to kill, what is the spirit of the lis pendens?). Still, if you think about it much, seeing a pasty-faced, smooth-handed, paunchy middle-aged lawyer trying to get up in somebody's face is pretty pathetic.


Posted by: Idealist | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 6:27 PM
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There are times I wish I were Scottish.


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 6:28 PM
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I remember "Testooned with breasticles", "I think the problem is with Unfogged", and "An eclectic web magazine dedicated to [something or other]".


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 6:28 PM
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We could reform our culture! By all accounts, all it would take would be a discreetly secreted pint glass.


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 6:31 PM
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It was "An eclectic web magazine testooned with breasticles" the first several months I commented.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 6:34 PM
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Nobody liked "nut deep in random pussy."


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 6:34 PM
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New mouseover image.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 6:38 PM
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You did.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 6:38 PM
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Several months? I remember it changing much more frequently than that.


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 6:38 PM
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301: only if you include the next bit about ending up or waking up limp-dicked.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 6:40 PM
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304: how near to the speed of light were you travelling?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 6:41 PM
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You all know the ethos of the mouseover. Whatever the hell it is it won't come from this.


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 6:41 PM
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Americans don't hate women. Totally unfair.

296: rampant use of military metaphors in office settings is detestable. It rolls together so many different forms of annoyingness, from machismo to taking work too seriously.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 6:43 PM
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304: c-(how much I give a fuck about answering your dumb ass question).

Why?


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 6:45 PM
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oh fuck I forgot the 1/


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 6:47 PM
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that was close


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 6:48 PM
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Also detestable: use of outdated inner-city gangster slang by middle-aged office workers. This is the anti-establishment version of the military metaphor. One identifies with the violence of the dispossessed rather than the violence of the state.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 6:48 PM
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use of outdated inner-city gangster slang by middle-aged office workers

I use outdated inner-city gangster slang to explain my military metaphors to my office-worker colleagues. That's OK, isn't it?


Posted by: Idealist | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 6:52 PM
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Also detestable: use of outdated inner-city gangster slang by middle-aged office workers.

You mean like "That's how I roll", pgd, you big meanie?


Posted by: mcmc | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 6:52 PM
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use of outdated inner-city gangster slang by middle-aged office workers


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 6:54 PM
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312: The popularity of The Wire has made this so much worse among my cohort. It's mostly just funny. No, it's not all in the game. Yo.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 6:54 PM
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Witt hates me.

Oh, gosh, Sir K, I'm so sorry. I have been missing a lot of threads lately, and today was operating on three hours of sleep (surprisingly well; apparently the only time I can be functionally sleep-deprived is with the aid of west-to-east time changes). I didn't mean to ignore you.

Anyway: Rats. I am actually working in the 'burbs on Sunday, and would be more than delighted to meet up in the evening, but it wouldn't be until 7ish. I don't know if that is too late for you.

I really have no idea if there are any other Philadelphia-area commenters; the only other PA folks I know are at the other end of the state. Anybody in NJ want to come over the bridge?

(And of course, regardless, I am happy to make meandering-around-the-city recommendations if you're into that sort of thing.)


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 7:05 PM
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282 and 296 calm me. Thanks.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 7:06 PM
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I think the particularly high-anxiety nature of American masculinity happens for some of the same reasons we have more of a culture war here than other countries -- a very shallow-rooted culture confronted with rapid social changes from an unusually unregulated capitalism. In the case of feminism, that meant the most rapid flood of women into the workforce combined with less collective support for the family and more pressure from rapid deindustrialization. Makes for anxiety. I think male wages relative to women fell faster here than in any other industrialized country.

Not to be totally materialistic about it, though. American pop culture also has a peculiar genius for heightening anxieties in order to sell stuff. And the post-60s conservative reaction leaned hard on psychic equivalencies between the feminine and the dirty undisciplined hippies.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 7:15 PM
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The U.S. now has probably the finest soldiers in the world now

Um, no. The guys I've talked to who were Rangers or Special Forces were quite impressed with the Brits and Australians.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 7:16 PM
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Shorter 319: It's not our fault! And the feminists didn't help, either.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 7:17 PM
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No, 319 is a reasonable approximation. The whole snark thing among so-called elites, and its relation to masculine anxiety and celebration, is another question. I don't particularly like these terms of discussion.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 7:22 PM
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319 is one way of describing it. There's also that fact that in America, an invented land of immigrants without a shared culture or history, things are always at issue. When "that's just how we do things" isn't settled, people talk a lot about how to do things.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 7:25 PM
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323 is great. In some other countries, the public sphere is a boring technocratic place to implement shared values, here the public sphere is an arena for fighting out conflicted values. And political entrepreneurs know just how to manipulate that -- it certainly costs less and is easier than doing something useful.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 7:32 PM
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323: But I don't think that the ways in which unfogged, say, normalizes gay jokes and sexism are really talk about how to do things. They're just establishing and pounding in that this is how we do things.

You're right that one of the most salient facts about these here states is that we have no particular ethnic identity; we have just the fact that we were pioneers. Etc.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 05-13-08 7:37 PM
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