Re: It's Not About Just Us Anymore

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No doubt there'll be plenty of Democrats crazy "anarcho-syndicalists" who'll remind us that they just knew he'd be a sell-out.


Posted by: TJ | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 2:20 PM
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Maybe a light will shine forth from the heavens, and people at Unfogged will realize that they should ignore Bob McManus.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 2:21 PM
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2: Who?


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 2:23 PM
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Indeed. There was an article in today's NYT about how he's started wearing a flag pin and talking about God.


Posted by: Becks | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 2:24 PM
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No doubt there'll be plenty of Democrats who'll remind us that they just knew he'd be a sell-out.

You say this like the process of him selling out (really, becoming a full-fledged national-level politician in the U.S.) isn't happening.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 2:24 PM
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Indeed. There was an article in today's NYT about how he's started wearing a flag pin and talking about God.

This country can be pretty depressing at times.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 2:25 PM
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Hasn't Obama been talking quite a bit about God all along?


Posted by: Gabriel | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 2:26 PM
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7: Yes.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 2:26 PM
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7: Well, that's true.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 2:27 PM
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There was an article in today's NYT about how he's started wearing a flag pin and talking about God.

Ha, missed that.

You say this like the process of him selling out (really, becoming a full-fledged national-level politician in the U.S.) isn't happening.

I say it with a distinction in mind between what he needs to say to get elected, and what he'll be able to accomplish, particularly if things stay this favorable for Democrats. If he makes some crazy promise, that'll be selling out, but I'm willing to wait to see what he does in office.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 2:28 PM
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I'm going to take the contrary position, and argue that he'll end up pandering in general election-y ways far less than anybody expects, and pleasantly surprise us with his belief in the intelligence of the American voter, even the GOP one.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 2:28 PM
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even the GOP one

Wow, you *are* optimistic.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 2:29 PM
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12: it's a hive mind.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 2:29 PM
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7, 8: But I think it turns out that it was the wrong God. Now he's going to talk about the right God.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 2:29 PM
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14: our god is an awesome god in the blue states. And hey, people like awesome!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 2:30 PM
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Hasn't Obama been talking quite a bit about God all along?

Yes, and he has credibility there, but there was really very little of it in the Democratic race. I expect it'll be more salient now.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 2:31 PM
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Attention, San Francisco residents.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 2:32 PM
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17: if that's the plant I'm thinking of, it's actually quite forward-thinking and technologically impressive. I wouldn't want to insult it that way.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 2:33 PM
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It'll be interesting to see if Obama supporters keep calling Hillary a crazy vicious evil racist bitch and a stealth Republican after she wholeheartedly endorses Obama and campaigns for him.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 2:36 PM
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Yeah, and why would you name something that cleans sewage after Bush? Maybe that massive pile of garbage in the middle of the Pacific can be named after him. The Dubya Doldrums.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 2:36 PM
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18: Maybe something like this would be more suitable?


Posted by: Not Prince Hamlet | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 2:37 PM
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The amusing thing is, I can imagine both Sifu and the original post being basically correct. Obama can pander a lot less than the average cynical person expects while still pandering more than enough to piss people off and say offensive shit. Sort of like the time he threw a note of caution about supporting hawkish policies by political factions in Israel into a statement that otherwise accepts the status quo.

2: Why? He seems more respectable and credible than the average Republican.


Posted by: Cyrus | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 2:37 PM
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our god is an awesome god

See, I can't even read this phrase without getting that kitschy hymn/worship song/what do you even call it? stuck in my head.

our God is an awqwsome God, he-e reigns fro-om heaven above, with wisdom, power and love, our God is an awesome God.

Stuck.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 2:38 PM
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(I went to a church where good spelling was not encouraged.)


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 2:38 PM
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Obama gave a speech on religion and politics a while back that didn't seem all that sell-outy to me the lapsed Catholic, and totally won over my non-wingnut but churchgoing sister, who wants to vote for him now because 'he seems like he gets it.'

I'm hoping we see that guy in the general because I do not plan on being disappointed by someone new until after he takes office.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 2:38 PM
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19: you don't have to be bitter, PGD. We re-embrace you.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 2:38 PM
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PGD, I'll go back to cursing Hillary once she no longer is a potential Democratic Prez candidate. I will, however, avoid sexist remarks. I will certainly suggest that she be kept a million miles from foreign and military policy.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 2:39 PM
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23: This song.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 2:39 PM
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26: and I promise to campaign wholeheartedly for Obama!


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 2:40 PM
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But I will continue to disparage the Celtics. 8 PM tonight, motherfucker.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 2:41 PM
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Someone needs to rescue Cala's adorable sisters from The Church.

Maybe Obama can come up with a progressive reading of The Book of Revelation and sweep the South.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 2:43 PM
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30: heh, yeah. You just root your little heart out for the road team.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 2:44 PM
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Here's something folks may find interesting.

An Edwards endorsement tonight? One can hope!

(Apologies if someone posted this elsewhere. I'm about 25 papers into 50 papers that need to be graded by tonight. Maybe I should just start drinking now.)



Posted by: Crabby Abby | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 2:45 PM
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33: if you're trying to decide on a cocktail there's a thread that might be of some assistance.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 2:47 PM
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22.1 is probably right. Especially so because the Democrats have been a playing a very cautious game for three years now (well, much longer than that -- but that play has been working since the mid-terms). So the question becomes: what lessons have Party higher-ups learned from this recent history? Given the Democrats' recent successes, and given Obama's race and funny name, I can't imagine that his campaign is going to push the envelope. That said, I wonder if the Foster, Cazayoux, Childers troika heralds huge things come November. Actually, the more important question is how the Obama camp reads those developments.


Posted by: Ari | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 2:48 PM
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No doubt there'll be plenty of Democrats Republicans masquerading as disgruntled Democrats who'll remind us that they just knew he'd be a sell-out

... fixed that for yez, big O


Posted by: W. Kiernan | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 2:49 PM
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I went to a church where good spelling was not encouraged.

good spelling is for those coastal elites like sausagely


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 2:51 PM
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So the question becomes: what lessons have Party higher-ups learned from this recent history?

That's an Atrios question. The party can be changed it certain people are squeezed out and new ones brought in, but no one will learn anything.

The Atrios answer was "Nothing".


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 2:52 PM
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2: I like bob, and am glad he comes here. From my perspective, he does seem like one those people who veers from incredibly-intelligent-and-informed to who-let-the-crazy-person-read-all-those-books awfully quickly. But both of those judgments really say as much about my perspective as his.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 2:52 PM
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I like Bob. I also like it when people remember to ignore Bob when he gets all loony and trolly.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 2:53 PM
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||

I thought my grades were due by the end of today, but really it is noon Friday. Yipee! I'm either going to get hammered or relieve Molly of some childcare duties in short order.

|>


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 2:54 PM
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I was an Obama delegate at the County caucus, and forced to bet real money, I'd put it on sellout.

"Beggars cannot be choosers" is a powerfully liberating endorsement philosophy. You don't have to persuade yourself that your candidate is actually a good guy.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 2:54 PM
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You say this like the process of him selling out (really, becoming a full-fledged national-level politician in the U.S.) isn't happening.

You say that like you think there is something to sell out. I'm curious what that is.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 2:54 PM
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I think Bob is on the short list of all-star commenters who make Unfogged the warm and special place it is.

I was going to say "along with...xxx, xxx" etc., but there is nothing to be gained by going down that road.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 2:55 PM
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34: Heh. I should take a closer look at the thread! Though I prefer wine when grading. Far too often there is a paragraph (or a sentence, an analogy, or an example) that demands one stop grading and take a drink. To dull the pain, if you will. At the rate these are coming up in this stack of papers, I'd be drunk in about two papers and would have to resort to the stair toss method of grading for the remainder of the papers. (Though the more I contemplate that method, the better it sounds.)


Posted by: Crabby Abby | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 2:56 PM
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Here is a CBN piece on a pamphlet that Obama is using in Kentucky (and apparently before that) aimed at churchgoers.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 2:59 PM
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Generally don't you know who your A, B, C and F students are by now?


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 2:59 PM
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40: Yes, I find some of the best threads are when everyone is going on about some elitisit bullshit about food, drink or what have you and you get the periodic contrapuntal dispatch from Bob-world.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 3:01 PM
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43: This is a great question. I was writing a post a while back, responding to Garry Wills's comparison of Obama's race speech to Lincoln's Cooper-Union address. The crux of the post, which I never finished and might return to now, is that there's one important difference between the two pieces of rhetoric: the Cooper-Union audience left knowing that Lincoln would never allow slavery to expand into the West; we'd left wondering what, if anything, is the bright line that Obama won't cross.


Posted by: Ari | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 3:02 PM
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Also, I, too, have come to love Bob -- like I love my crazy uncle and my radical preacher.


Posted by: Ari | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 3:03 PM
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47: Sure! Though there are enough instances of A students dropping the ball, or B or C students really turning in something stellar to require that I at least need to read the final papers. The paper is worth a lot - 25% of their final grade - so bombing or doing really well can actually really help or harm the final grade.

This isn't to say, though, that I read these final papers all that carefully. And I sure as hell don't write comments. (My institution requires we turn in grades a mere 48 hours after the final. Barbaric.)


Posted by: Crabby Abby | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 3:05 PM
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It'll be interesting to see if Obama supporters keep calling Hillary a crazy vicious evil racist bitch and a stealth Republican after she wholeheartedly endorses Obama and campaigns for him.

It'll be more interesting see if she wholeheartedly endorses him, rather than trying to take him down under cover of a smile in hopes of preserving her '12 chances. I think I've got more evidence behind my presuppositions (none of which incl. "cracy vicious evil racist bitch," or even "stealth Republican") than you do.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 3:05 PM
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47: I am about 90% confident I know a students grade down to the letter grade by this point in the semester. But that means, if I have 125 students, I am wrong about around 12 of them. This makes it necessary to finish the grading job properly.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 3:06 PM
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50: So you'll reject and denounce him, then?


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 3:07 PM
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elitisit bullshit about food, drink or what have you and you get the periodic contrapuntal dispatch from Bob-world

A depiction of every Unfogged thread.


Posted by: asl | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 3:08 PM
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54: No, I stand by him. Unless, that is, you and your ilk turn up the heat. Then I'm throwing him under the bus.


Posted by: Ari | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 3:09 PM
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hammered ... childcare

Emperor's New Groove or Babe: Pig in the City are your best choices here. Iron Giant or Fleischer studio cartoons are also OK.


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 3:11 PM
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I'm throwing him under the bus.

Things have clearly deteriorated since the days of Rosa Parks, I see.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 3:13 PM
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I was writing a post a while back...

My tired eyes read this as "writing this post while black."

(A dangerous game.)


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 3:15 PM
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I'm as crazy as Bob, you know. [**sniff**] I just don't have his optimism, and feel less need to try to understand things at a deep level.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 3:16 PM
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Edwards endorses Obama.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 3:16 PM
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55: At Unfogged every thread gets a trophy.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 3:17 PM
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19, 52: PGD, I assumed you were being tongue-in-cheek, presenting Clinton wholeheartedly endorsing and campaigning for Obama as a fait accompli when it's by no means certain to happen, and demanding that Obama supporters react to that, satirizing ogged's implications that we need to react to Obama's inevitable sell-out. Were you being sincere?


Posted by: Hamilton-Lovecraft | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 3:17 PM
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elitist bullshit about food, drink or what have you

if you're trying to decide on a cocktail nut there's a thread that might be of some assistance.


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 3:17 PM
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60: I'm as crazy as Bob, you know. [**sniff**] I just don't have his optimism

By "don't have his optimism" you mean you don't expect to see blood running ankle-deep in the streets in the next four years, right?


Posted by: Hamilton-Lovecraft | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 3:19 PM
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Also, one can make one's grading go faster by giving everyone a B+ on the final. It won't affect most people's grade all that much, and will either be mildly disappointing to some or a pleasant surprise for others, but in all cases it will be completely self-justifying: "I knew I should have worked a little harder" says the A student. "I really improved! says the C student.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 3:20 PM
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61: Oh hell yes.


Posted by: Hamilton-Lovecraft | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 3:20 PM
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giving everyone a B+

The archives, Cala, the archives.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 3:22 PM
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61: Says who?


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 3:24 PM
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monkeyballs, ogged, monkeyballs.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 3:24 PM
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52, 63: Ham-Love is right on my intentions in 19. But I do believe that Hillary will eventually endorse Obama wholeheartedly and work hard for him. If she appears to be doing so, but people insist she must be sabotaging him even as she appears to be campaigning for him, then that would be an answer to my question in 19.

of course, if there's actual *evidence* she's sabotaging him, that would piss the hell out of me. Hell, if she's still in the race a month from now, I'd be really pissed. But I wouldn't be surprised to see some disagreement over what constitutes evidence of sabotage.

People of Unfogged! We can keep fighting over weird rhetorical nuances even after the nomination battle is over and we all completely agree on the race! KEEP STRIFE ALIVE!


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 3:25 PM
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Endorsey or not, Edwards wouldn't be a bad VP choice.


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 3:26 PM
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61: And "Clinton: McCain over Obama would be 'error'". So pretty close to group hug time.

But Repubs about to unleash their secret campaign weapon: Specter Calls for Patriots Inquiry.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 3:26 PM
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66- 'Now, I know to get high studying for every exam', said the F student.


Posted by: asl | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 3:26 PM
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69: Says the Obama campaign. Go to CNN.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 3:26 PM
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By "don't have his optimism" I mean that I don't see an alternative to neoliberal imperialism and endless wars. I just how for less adventurist militarism and an end to Rove and Norquist's reign of terror.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 3:28 PM
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Who was Edwards going to endorse, Barr? It would have meant something if he'd done it when the race was in (some) doubt. I am not pleased with John Edwards.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 3:30 PM
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What is an endorsement called when it's for a presumptive nominee?


Posted by: asl | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 3:30 PM
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72: That I'm not sure of. He's got kind of a whiff of loser around him at this point. I would love to see him in a cabinet position, though, AG or health-care-plan czar or something.


Posted by: Hamilton-Lovecraft | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 3:30 PM
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I like Edwards, but he's a terrible VP nominee. There's already a fresh-faced but inexperienced guy on the ticket.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 3:31 PM
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"how" => "hope".


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 3:31 PM
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78: overdue.


Posted by: Hamilton-Lovecraft | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 3:32 PM
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He's got kind of a whiff of loser around him

I love this phrase in politics, probably because I've been unfortunately accurate with it in the past.


Posted by: Po-Mo Polymath | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 3:33 PM
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78: sycophantic


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 3:33 PM
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77: His endorsement tends to de-legitimize any possible Clinton attempts to bend the party rules to her advantage. It's not worth zero.


Posted by: Hamilton-Lovecraft | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 3:34 PM
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I, too, am disappointed that Edwards didn't step out earlier. But I hope to hell that he'll get a good appointment: AG, as H-L says, or Dept. of Labor. I'm not sure he's right for health care (politically, I mean, not ideologically).


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 3:34 PM
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71: As far as I'm concerned, she can stay in the race up until convention day provided her message is "Obama is a hella awesome candidate who could squish McCain with his little finger, but I'm even more awesomer."


Posted by: Hamilton-Lovecraft | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 3:36 PM
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85: It's not worth zero.

In America, we Americans say "It ain't worth nuthin".

We come from America. Where in the world are you from?


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 3:36 PM
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It could be interesting if Edwards gets a high-profile appointment, and Obama also picks an ambitious VP. 2016 could be wild. Yeah, I've got your chickens right here.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 3:37 PM
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Edwards as AG, Clinton as VP. Announce at the convention. Get everyone standing together and smiling. Remember how much we've been kicking their ass in recent elections. Drop the confetti.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 3:38 PM
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See, I can't even read this phrase without getting that kitschy hymn/worship song/what do you even call it? stuck in my head.

That's what makes it an effective dog whistle. GWB and his minders figured this out ages ago. The evangelicals understood that the title of his campaign biography was an abbreviated version of this. The very obscurity of the allusion heightens its impact; getting it is an indicator of shared in-group membership, like some of the in-jokes in this community.

Kerry, by contrast, went straight to quoting scripture when trying to suck up to evangelical voters, which came across as contrived to the audience he wanted to impress and freaky to his base. Hillary understands the principle of the dog whistle, at least, even if she isn't so adept in the execution. Barack is a master of it.


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 3:38 PM
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78: politics. See also: NARAL.


Posted by: Ari | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 3:38 PM
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And then Barry plants a hot Al Gore kiss on Hillary's waiting lips right in front of everybody, and holds the embrace for an unseemly long time while Bill and Edwards stand there looking like chumps. And then he winks at Bill and says something about interns.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 3:40 PM
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93: Hott.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 3:40 PM
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I'll be the first to say it, John: sexist.


Posted by: Ari | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 3:41 PM
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90: Clinton as VP

Yes, because four years of scheming and bitter seething and sabotage is exactly what the country needs.


Posted by: Hamilton-Lovecraft | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 3:43 PM
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Clinton as VP.

Why not Sebelius instead?

It would have meant something if he'd done it when the race was in (some) doubt. I am not pleased with John Edwards.

Give me a break. The race is in doubt until he actually has the nomination. Edwards's endorsement must have been timed, in part, by Obama. He (and NARAL) came out early enough to get credit, and late enough (one hopes) to not appear to be rushing Clinton off the stage. Accept a win as a win.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 3:43 PM
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Clinton as VP would be stupid too. Experienced older white male needed. Military background preferred.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 3:44 PM
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88: The rarefied nerd culture of San Francisco, why do you ask?

I was this close to saying "it's worth nonzero" or "it's worth epsilon".


Posted by: Hamilton-Lovecraft | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 3:44 PM
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Clinton as VP

So not going to happen that I can't even get heated about it.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 3:45 PM
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98. Obama/Clark?


Posted by: Hamilton-Lovecraft | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 3:45 PM
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Does Richardson qualify as white?


Posted by: Hamilton-Lovecraft | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 3:45 PM
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Obama/Clark?

Clark is a Clinton guy, and a shitty campaigner.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 3:46 PM
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Kobe - bad choice.

Clark - constantly saying gaffes and sounding like a phony while doing it, as I recall. Also, has been conclusively smeared already by the elite warmongers who are trusted by the warmongering swing voters.

Webb - the only good choice I can think of.


Posted by: Fatrman | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 3:47 PM
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Of, fine. Maybe Edwards would be terrible, but he's white and southern, and you'll have a hard time convincing me otherwise. Besides, don't we want someone who can run in '16? If age is no issue, then I'll go for Jerry Brown. At least then we'll get a denim Stasi.


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 3:48 PM
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I think Webb would be great (although I think he's been not-great on some policy stuff); the argument against picking him is that the Dems give up a contested Senate seat.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 3:48 PM
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Experienced older white male needed.

Dick Cheney might have some time available.

Military background preferred.

I bet that there are a hell of a lot more white women than there are military and ex-military personnel. OTOH, I'm OK if he goes with Webb or someone like that. I think I'm OK with almost anyone. Maybe not the Right Rev.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 3:48 PM
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88: Actually, in America -- at least the part of America where we know how to use a double negative -- ""It ain't worth nuthin" = "It isn't worth anything."

For "It's not worth zero" we say "It's worth something."

I'm sure you regret the error.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 3:50 PM
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I bet that there are a hell of a lot more white women than there are military and ex-military personnel.

How about killing two birds with one stone, and choosing Lynndie England?

AND that would win some trust from Appalachia!


Posted by: Fatrman | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 3:50 PM
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97: Yup. (Apparently it's my day to agree with everything Tim says. Who's up for tomorrow? I need to pass the baton at midnight.)


Posted by: Ari | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 3:51 PM
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I don't think it will be Webb because the Dems are not going to want to put that seat back into contention so soon. I also doubt that military experience will be a deciding factor as Obama is going to concede that point to McCain and hammer away on judgment. I'd put my money on one of the other popular Virginia politicians, Warner or Kaine, which would most likely guarantee Virginia for Obama in November.


Posted by: Grumps | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 3:52 PM
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(Apparently it's my day to agree with everything Tim says. Who's up for tomorrow? I need to pass the baton at midnight.)

Scarcely cricket of you, handing over that responsibility just when it's gettingb much more difficult, as Tim goes on his nightly bender.


Posted by: Auto-banned | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 3:52 PM
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partially pwned by Ogged.


Posted by: Grumps | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 3:53 PM
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I actually think that we don't need to be as cautious about ticket balancing as we're being. Unless the Republicans come up with a game-changer (another terrorist attack, or war with Iran or Syria) I think that McCain is in terrible trouble.

I hope that both Democratic candidates have well-worked-out plans on the shelf for TAKING POLITICAL ADVANTAGE either of another terrorist attack or of an expanded war. One of those clockwork orchestrated Wurlitzer operations, with surrogates popping up on schedule and so one.

Because we know that the Republicans do, and they have the advantage of controlling the events preceding the terrorist attack / expansion of the war.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 3:54 PM
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The argument against picking Warner is that the Dems lose a contestant for the other Senate seat.

I think Dems have got Virginia on lockdown. If the state pickup is the rubric we're deciding by, why not pick from a state that's more iffy?


Posted by: Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 3:54 PM
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Warner would basically mean giving up another Senate seat, and Kaine isn't that great a campaigner.


Posted by: Gabriel | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 3:56 PM
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Webb seems a bit of a loose cannon, and Obama can't afford many missteps at this point.


Posted by: Hamilton-Lovecraft | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 3:56 PM
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Webb seems a bit of a loose cannon

The word is "maverick". Seriously. The press loves the guy, and in that "man, you are awesome, I wish we elitists were awesome too" way.


Posted by: Fatrman | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 3:57 PM
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Sebelius's response on behalf of the Democratic Party to the SotU address was about as exciting as an instructional video. Sorry, but she flubbed her audition for VP.


Posted by: Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 3:57 PM
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Warner's not running for reelection.


Posted by: Hamilton-Lovecraft | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 3:58 PM
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Lookout, John is in bold italic!

Alright, its 6PM I'm going home.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 3:58 PM
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The word is "maverick". Seriously.

Yeah, I think that's right. He's a loose cannon in that slightly dangerous way that Americans love, and he's not a cringer, which I love.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 3:59 PM
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I think Dems have got Virginia on lockdown.

Really? I think this is a bit premature considering Virginia hasn't voted for a Dem since '68 and McCain is leading in all polls.


Posted by: Grumps | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 4:00 PM
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Also, I'm willing to bet that Obama chooses a Westerner for veep. In fact, I'll offer odds to any takers. And since this thread started with the question of when Obama would begin to pander for the general, I'll suggest a name: Bill Ritter.


Posted by: Ari | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 4:00 PM
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Obama can do whatever the hell he wants. Didn't you read that Matt Stoller piece about how the new Democratic Party is being built entirely around Obama and his millions-strong action team? Even the Kennedys look like hangers on now. He dethroned the Clintons, fer chrissakes. This, at a time when Dems are making unprecedented gains and looking forward to (possibly veto-proof!) majorities in Congress? When he's polling even with McCain before the press has even so much as given McCain a sideways glance? Obama's ready to spend political capital like it was fliff.


Posted by: Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 4:02 PM
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124: Better to hope for poaching votes from confused Huckabee voters, and pick the mayor of Denver.


Posted by: Fatrman | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 4:02 PM
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What are the odds, and what is the west, anything west of Kansas?


Posted by: Grumps | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 4:02 PM
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119: Just because you hate women doesn't mean everyone else does. She flubbed one moment (I haven't watched it; I'm taking your characterization), who cares? How bad a campaigner can a two-term Red state Dem governor be?


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 4:03 PM
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126: God, Hickenlooper would be just great. Seriously, he'd make a fantastic running mate. Except for the name. Though even that has comic value: Obama/Hickenlooper, '08.


Posted by: Ari | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 4:03 PM
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112: You can't go on a nightly bender. That's just regular alcoholism. A "bender" lasts at least two days. You're so out of touch with the common man, I think you just blew your shot at VP.


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 4:04 PM
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As long as this is the going Hillary/Obama thread, here is a nice article by Matt Taibbi. As usual, he's a blast to read, although he looks a bit silly as the article is a week ago and he's predicting the race will go on indefinitely.

Pitted against physical beauty and inspirational rhetoric, Hillary made herself the champion of everything stylistically ordinary, superficially unimpressive and ignored. And while her opponent won all the attention and admiration, all the teen-idol gushings of the beautiful people, she went for something deeper -- resentment at the lack of those same things. She took an opponent who was relentless in his attempts to remain genial, positive and unifying, and managed to turn him into a divisive villain, a symbol representing every oversexed winner who ever had it too easy at the pimply kid's expense.

That's right. Fuck you, beautiful intellectual winner people!


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 4:04 PM
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The argument against picking Warner is that the Dems lose a contestant for the other Senate seat. he's 81 years old.


Posted by: Hamilton-Lovecraft | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 4:04 PM
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HamLove, are you trolling or are you unaware that the 81-year-old Republican Warner is not the 52-year-old Democratic Warner?


Posted by: Fatrman | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 4:07 PM
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I don't know if it's been mentioned yet, but I just heard over the radio that Edwards is endorsing Obama shortly.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 4:08 PM
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Sorry to be rude. Please edit 133 for tone. And credit it to "Peter K".


Posted by: Fatrman | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 4:09 PM
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Sorry, Timbot, I would respond to your comment but I fell asleep dialing up Sebelius's SotU response.


Posted by: Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 4:09 PM
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As usual, he's a blast to readMaureen Dowd with a Fox attitude.


Posted by: Gabriel | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 4:09 PM
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133: Or maybe he's prepared to yank off Warner's mask, Velma style? We have very cunning and meddling commenters.


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 4:10 PM
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77: Ogged, you stubborn bastard, Edwards endorsing now is kind of awesome. Edwards is all about the working class white guys, remember?


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 4:11 PM
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20-50:A prophet hath no honour on the Iranian terrorist blog, unless outvoted by the real Americans.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 4:11 PM
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133: My lawyer has advised me not to answer that.


Posted by: Hamilton-Lovecraft | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 4:13 PM
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Anyway, this thread contains the implication that none of the people from Virginia, Mark Warner, James Webb and Tim Kaine, can be picked as vice president because all three of them are needed in the Senate.

But...there are three of them!


Posted by: Fatrman | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 4:15 PM
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137: Huh? If you wanted to criticize Taibbi, that wouldn't be the way to do it, hard to see the traction with those comparisons. Besides, Dowd already has a Fox attitude. Anyway, he's my favorite political writer going. In this piece he goes undercover to check out Pastor Hagee and his flock.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 4:15 PM
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But...there are three of them!

It's a little known clause that Madison stuck into the Constitution.

Kaine could be picked as VP, I guess. I just don't think he adds much to the ticket the way Warner or Webb would.


Posted by: Gabriel | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 4:17 PM
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106:Agree with ogged. Webb is much more valuable in the Senate than as VP, including the longer term goal of increasing the Dem hegemony in Va, and expanding down the SE coast like reverse Sherman.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 4:18 PM
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I get Taibbi confused with Matt Bai. I don't really like either of them but I think Bai's worse.


Posted by: Katherine | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 4:18 PM
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127: 3:1. And while I'd like everything west of the Appalachians, using my professional identity as cover for my fiscal cowardice, I'll settle for the trans-Mississippi West.


Posted by: Ari | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 4:20 PM
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Also, all money goes to the winners charity of choice, okay? Or we bet wine.


Posted by: Ari | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 4:20 PM
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winner's


Posted by: Ari | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 4:21 PM
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Matt Taibbi has nothing in common with Matt Bai. Matt Bai is like Mark Halperin or Dana Milbank, a total colorless zero obsessed with the horse race and oblivious to reality. Matt Taibbi is basically the world's most perfect Hunter S. Thompson imitator, except without the idealism that Thompson sometimes had.


Posted by: Fatrman | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 4:21 PM
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145: Agree with ogged.

Is this going to be a really, really big group hug?


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 4:24 PM
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Ah, I see. Anyway, he certainly waited long enough, and I don't really buy that bit about his holding off on endorsing for fear of harming his favored candidate. That said, I would enthusiastically support his nomination as AG.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 4:25 PM
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Taibbi is excellent, full stop. If you don't think so, you probably just haven't read him enough.

The piece in 143 is a book excerpt that should have been edited down, it's a little padded down, but it's worth reading to at least the point on p. 7 when the pastor casts out the demons of handwriting analysis and analytic philosophy. Surely there would be Unfogged sympathy for that.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 4:27 PM
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The 143 piece is Dowd-esque & clueless. I may have read other stuff of his that's good.


Posted by: Katherine | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 4:29 PM
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Taibbi is excellent, full stop. If you don't think so, you probably just haven't read him enough.

Maybe so. From what I've read, he seems like yet another writer whose basic move is to reduce every political issue to a shallow narrative that he can use as a backdrop for his clever turns of phrase. It just seems like it's more creative writing than insightful commentary.

I do admit that those turns of phrase are often very clever, though.


Posted by: Gabriel | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 4:31 PM
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Sorry, not 143; 131. Dumb, cliched.


Posted by: Katherine | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 4:32 PM
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From the link in 131:

In other words, this Hillary campaign is basically Tom Petty's "I Won't Back Down" running for president.

Really?


Posted by: Gabriel | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 4:35 PM
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It's impossible to write something non-stupid about the horse race, because the horse race is stupid. Think about it and you'll agree.

Taibbi's book "Spanking the Donkey" was largely about this very issue, as it was a travelogue of how awful and unbearable the experience was of traveling around with the campaigns and trying to write non-stupid things about them.

Basically what Taibbi does is write about how awful things are, in a very funny way. His three or so pieces about how awful our legislature was when Tom DeLay was in charge (one of them containing a huge number of quotes from Bernie Sanders) were great. Both of his books ("Donkey" and "Elephant") are really good, I think.

I agree that the last few things he's done for Rolling Stone have been horse-race coverage themselves, and therefore stupid.


Posted by: Fatrman | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 4:36 PM
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152: He held off endorsing because he didn't want his rep to be damaged by backing the loser, not the other way around.


Posted by: Hamilton-Lovecraft | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 4:40 PM
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Has someone set up a Petey watch site yet to check for the inevitable head explosion?


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 4:41 PM
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I really liked Taibbi's article on Bernie Sanders and the actual, ugly process of legislation.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 4:42 PM
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I have to admit that 140 made me laugh.


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 4:43 PM
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160: No, but my "Petey for Veep" 527 is raking in the dough.


Posted by: Ari | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 4:44 PM
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163: Veep for which party?


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 4:44 PM
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I think that I'd rather see Edwards do something labor related. Mark Kleiman was pushing him for National Labor Relations Board.


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 4:46 PM
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163: If Edwards didn't help swing NC towards the Democratic candidate in 2004, I don't think Petey will help in 2008.


Posted by: Fatrman | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 4:46 PM
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Fatrman beat me to it. The public face of politics just IS stupid manipulative propaganda, so in order to write about it properly you have to enter into that spirit. You have to plug into your own subjectivity to connect to that kind of manipulation. Trying to write about it substantively gives the process too much credit. The problem with Dowd isn't that she does that, it's that she's driven completely by her own weird emotional shit rather than any attempt to do justice to the political carnival. Plus you can't tell the truth about this crap from within the establishment.

When Taibbi wants to, he does justice to the substantive realities of the process. Here is
the piece on the inner workings of Congress where he followed Bernie Sanders around. But even his horse-race coverage can be excellent; he just about predicted Obama's win way back in February, 2007, far before the rest of the national press.

I'll admit the piece in 131 isn't his best, but I still liked it and found parts of it quite emotionally accurate to what's been going on. Then again, it sort of mocked Obama supporters (despite the fact that Taibbi has consistently supported Obama over Hillary, he's an equal opportunity mocker), so maybe I was just being a nasty troll.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 4:50 PM
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Edwards is talkin' on the telly right now, if anyone cares and is near a television.

Lord, I like that man.


Posted by: Crabby Abby | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 4:51 PM
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Good links in 167.

In keeping with his habit of writing about everything in terms of how awful it is, Taibbi's writing about Obama has so far been a masterwork of praise by faint damnation.

I remember things like "Here are ten of his shady oligarch contributors, but at least they don't RUN HIS CAMPAIGN", or "When he lies, you get the feeling that it's actually a simplified version of what he really believes, instead of just a lie", or "You don't become a presidential candidate without being a psychotic megalomaniac, but at least with Obama in charge America would look more respectable to the world".


Posted by: Fatrman | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 4:55 PM
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Fafblog interviews Hillary Clinton.

FB: If you could say one thing to the average legless Iraqi on the street right now, what would it be? CLINTON: I'd tell him, you know, we've done our part here. We got rid of Saddam, we set up a government, we provided intermittently running electricity and free bandages for your leg-stumps. We gave you your chance. Now you've gotta step up. FB: Figuratively speaking. 'Cause he doesn't have legs.


I wouldn't go so far as to describe it as fair to her, but if you don't laugh it's probably because your soul has shriveled up and ceased working, or been removed along with some fraction of your kidney.


Posted by: washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 4:56 PM
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I almost linked to that Fafblog post as an example of Fafblog's occasional mild humorousness and my own fair-mindedness.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 4:57 PM
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Even the liberal John Edwards agrees with Martin Peretz that Obama is trustworthy.


Posted by: Golem | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 4:57 PM
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170 unfortunately represents the official position of pretty much the entire Democratic party. Even if you don't like it, the option seems to be building a permanent U.S. military base in Stumpy's neighborhood. Which would probably then be used to create legless Iranians.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 5:01 PM
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It would be nice (I thought on first seeing suggestions of Edwards as AG) if Edwards could be somewhere he could focus on his forte of social/economic policy. Trouble is, all the parts of American government that deal with this are puny. Labor? HHS? NLRB? The only prestigious job is AG, where he could be a Spitzer on the national level.

Which would actually be pretty cool.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 5:06 PM
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174: where he could be a Spitzer on the national level.

I wonder what national level hookers charge per hour?


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 5:07 PM
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173: Even if you don't like it, the option seems to be building a permanent U.S. military base in Stumpy's neighborhood.

Oops, no more room for Stumpy.

The plan also envisions significantly reducing the non-Iraqi footprint in the Green Zone, a five-square-mile area crisscrossed by 15-foot-high blast walls and checkpoints.

About 50 percent of the area is now occupied by coalition forces, the U.S. State Department or private foreign companies. If all were to go according to Karnowski's plan, only 5 percent of land in the Green Zone will be in foreigners' hands in five years



Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 5:12 PM
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The Taibbi piece on Sanders is very good.


Posted by: Katherine | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 5:16 PM
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I think Tabbi does share with HST the fact that much of his readership is not really that demanding, and therefor he can (and does) get away with just phoning it in at times. On the other hand, when he is good he can be great.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 5:24 PM
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177: comity!

178: I agree with that. There's also not much competition in the political press pushing him toward the top of his game. The American political process is hard to really do justice to, lots of journalists just cooperate in maintaining various illusions.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 5:26 PM
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What's good about it is it shows how the personality-based, trivial, color bits can be genuinely useful--in making a legislative process story fun to read instead of incredibly dry & feeling like doing your homework. Plus, to come up with snarky descriptions of the various committee chairmen you've got to actually think a little; you can't just phone it in & rely on the same material that 1000 other reporters are irritating us with.


Posted by: Katherine | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 5:33 PM
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But even in the piece on Hillary's patheticity, he uses DIFFERENT unfair and stereotypical attacks on her, whereas Dowd uses the same unfair and stereotypical attacks that she hears everyone else use.


Posted by: Fatrman | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 5:35 PM
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I wonder what national level hookers charge per hour?

They don't deal in dollars. They earn credit toward ambassadorships.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 5:36 PM
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182: They don't deal in dollars. They earn credit toward ambassadorships.

Well, they're still dealing in a debased currency then, I assumed they'd want euros or pounds.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 5:40 PM
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Taibbi (sounds Arab; what's his agenda?) is a good writer, but I'm not sure I've seen evidence that he's a perceptive political analyst.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 5:46 PM
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In other words, this Hillary campaign is basically Tom Petty's "I Won't Back Down" running for president

Line could have been great. Close, but not quite there.


Posted by: TJ | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 5:51 PM
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Taibbi (sounds Arab; what's his agenda?) is a good writer

He needs a much meaner editor, but he does have some lovely phrases. I'll always remember "shoveling coal for Satan."


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 5:59 PM
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Huh, apparently he played pro (European) ball.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 6:01 PM
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This is funny.

Did you notice a difference between Democrats and Republicans? A personal difference?

The Republicans were a lot nicer than I expected. A contrast between being with the Democrats and with the Republicans is that being around the Democrats was so much like high school -- you had to be cool all the time. In Orlando, you could just walk into a Bush office, and so long as you were committed to the president, it didn't matter if you were a total fucking loser, they'd love you for it.

Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 6:02 PM
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Hey yeah, I had a dream that involved Maureen Dowd. There was an open assembly that was determining some journalism prize, and I read a snippet of hers and to my surprise was impressed. I nominated her for the prize, but I knew as I did so that I was disappointing everyone here.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 6:03 PM
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Huh, apparently he played pro (European) ball.

Wow. He doesn't look that big.

Still needs an editor to--and I think have you to thank for the introduction to this description, ogged--murder his darlings. But I am impressed.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 6:06 PM
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Heh. Yggles is taunting Petey. Lovely. A commenter provides audio-visual aids.


Posted by: TJ | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 6:22 PM
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That's Cala's dad's line. I complained that it was overwritten.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 6:27 PM
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Then hooray for Cala's dad. That really is a great description.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 6:29 PM
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187: From what I can find he played some baseball in Russia and basketball in Mongolia (team called Altain Burgid). See this interview at A Tiny Revolution.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 6:31 PM
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hooray for Cala's dad

Clearly he managed not to murder his own.


Posted by: TJ | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 6:31 PM
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I haven't read much of Taibbi's writing - he did that takedown of Friedman right? - but it seems like the kind of cleverness that becomes dull and boring. Everything is like something else more familiar in some clever way. Repeat, repeat, repeat.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 6:31 PM
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It seems that it's not original to Cala's dad.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 6:33 PM
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192: It is a more succinct rendering of a sentiment found in Boswell's Life of Johnson

"I would say to Robertson what an old tutor of a college said to one of his pupils:'Read over your compositions, and where ever you meet with a passage which you think is particularly fine, strike it out.'"

I first encountered it in Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 6:36 PM
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The "murder your darling" thing is an old bit of writerly wisdom.

Taibbi (sounds Arab; what's his agenda?) is a good writer, but I'm not sure I've seen evidence that he's a perceptive political analyst.

He's perceptive in a broad way, in seeing how the system works (although aren't we all by now), on the micro questions he's hit and miss. But that piece on Obama linked up in 167 was extremely perceptive in seeing that Obama was just flat-out the most charismatic and compelling presence in the race and that would end up being decisive.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 6:36 PM
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Style, for example, is not--can never be--extraneous Ornament. You remember, maybe, the Persian lover whom I quoted to you out of Newman: how to convey his passion he sought a professional letter-writer and purchased a vocabulary charged with ornament, wherewith to attract the fair one as with a basket of jewels. Well, in this extraneous, professional, purchased ornamentation, you have something which Style is not: and if you here require a practical rule of me, I will present you with this: 'Whenever you feel an impulse to perpetrate a piece of exceptionally fine writing, obey it--whole-heartedly--and delete it before sending your manuscript to press. Murder your darlings.'


Posted by: Sir Arthur Quiller-Couch | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 6:36 PM
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200: Sir Arthur conceptually pwned by Johnson's old tutor.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 6:55 PM
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Sir Arthur's name is reminiscent of a former alias, patterned off of "The Senate and People of Rome," of a current commenter.


Posted by: washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 05-14-08 7:13 PM
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Matt Taibbi is holy and without flaw. You people are what's wrong with America today.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 05-15-08 12:16 AM
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read that interview with taibbi
that guy can't be trusted to go as Russians say together na razvedku, a typical westerner who can't survive in our conditions, an opportunist and cheap avanturist, he'll sell you in a heartbeat if needed, all misfortunes happened to him in our country is due to his dishonest heart that's why
batzayas? the girlfriend there? that's the way to talk about one who befriended him?
true, 90 ies were very scarce comparable maybe even to Iraq now, and the state of our medicine sure can't be compared to the western, what are our funds, close to nothing, but who will surivive will survive and people work on modernization
he's right about us and Russians though, we supplied them their geniuses and satraps for centuries, genetically so to speak, for me it's enough to be Lenin, Mendeleev, Bulgakov, Nabokov, Bunin, Gumilev and all their old nobility
just to think they wouldn't exist if not us


Posted by: read | Link to this comment | 05-15-08 7:03 AM
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203 is weird, 204 hilarious. Does Matt Taibbi really have to be either a holy seer or scum of the Earth? Dude's a funny writer, and kind of full of himself. Everything else falls out of those two conditions, as always happens.

On preview, pwned by ogged before evidence of Taibbi's unassailable manliness surfaced.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-15-08 7:50 AM
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Whether it's standing up for Israel or wearing a flag lapel pin, it's not "pandering" if you actually believe it's the right thing to do. Unfortunately, Obama doesn't, but he does it anyway.


Posted by: Gaijin Biker | Link to this comment | 05-15-08 8:35 AM
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Read, being offensive is Taibbi's specialty. Mostly he insults Americans now, but he insults whoever he's with.

He does seem to have a real appreciation of Russian literature.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 05-15-08 8:36 AM
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GB you linked to The Corner? You seriously are going to link to David Icke one of these days, aren't you?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-15-08 8:38 AM
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Er wait that was TLL. Regardles, GB: maybe if you worked at it you could find a source people here are less likely to listen to.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-15-08 8:38 AM
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damn, the, the, the


Posted by: read | Link to this comment | 05-15-08 8:44 AM
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and by genetical contribution i meant not the alleged rapes inevitable during the wars, coz nothing good would come out of hatred and humiliation when even your mother hates you, no
and our people's behaviour is traditonally pretty morally strict, rape and betrayal are considered the worst of crimes, the rapists, especially of young kids usually do not survive their first day of imprisonment, there is some kind of the code of honour even among the criminals
what i meant is the high level alliance marriages between the royal families and nobility


Posted by: read | Link to this comment | 05-15-08 9:42 AM
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I've been saying he's a sell-out for months.


Posted by: mimbreno | Link to this comment | 05-15-08 12:02 PM
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Mimbreno??!?


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 05-15-08 12:06 PM
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That's right! Hide the good silver.


Posted by: mimbreno | Link to this comment | 05-15-08 7:01 PM
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