That is a great blog. But being gay does not seem like the most prominent feature of his personality.
I gotta get people to click through, Geebers.
"The medal ceremony for the Awkward Olympics": funny. But finally, possibility of having question answered that has burned for years: what is the sound of the a in København? (Yes, Wikipedia, I know, but .ogg download, don't want to deal with &c.) Also, Rottin', w-lfs-n is totally going to kick your gay ass about the diæresis.
1 is correct. Maybe you could say the blog contains such awesome phrases as "fact-vaccinated rocking chair rants," and that it has an entry that ought to cure w-lfs-n of his diareses disease if anything can.
I listened to the ogg file and now I know the answer. Nyah.
5: Yeah, well, I just figured out that I can listen to ogg files in Toast, so now I know too, åsshøle.
the sweatpant entry is funny, the other day here it was pretty warm, people were walking with t-shirts on and i was going with my winter coat on and not feeling any hot
i thought, i'm like the man in a case, though i never wear sweatpants even in the winter
Rotting in Denmark, a nice welcome you got
mine was like a comparison with some strange people saying indeed, still i kinda cherish that post and my fruit basket
cure w-lfs-n of his diareses disease
Explosive diaresis is notoriously resistant to therapy.
Good blog. I hate those pop-up preview-the-links things, though. Away with them, Danish gay blogger!
i thought, i'm like the man in a case, though i never wear sweatpants even in the winter
read, are you referring to the Chekhov short story?
I was totally going to cite the caption quoted in 3.
The gas station depicted right below it is pretty awesome as well.
Since living outside the U.S. on and off for the past five years, this has become one of my favorite phenomena: Americans who pepper their English with umlauts, tildes, ratatat-R's and one-word accents in an effort to appear cultured.
There is no umlaut in "coördination". There is, however, umlaut in "men".
I'm not really going to take up the case of diaresis, but I would like to note that the "You're Anglophone, so speak/spell English, dammit" argument falls down because American English, at least, is only half rationalized. So, yes, gaol is jail, but knight isn't nite. As long as we cling to certain older forms, I don't see how anyone gets off trying to be down with teh gente by deprecating certain other older forms.
I mean, there's clearly some sort of continuum, and referring to Madagascar as one of the Pillars of Herakles is probably on the disreputable end of it, but for the most part judgments of this sort are defined by drawing a line precisely 1" to one's left and declaring it the limit.
The author also seems to think that "coördination" has to do with the origin of the word and not its pronunciation:
Similarly, the New Yorker is rocking the umlaut just to remind you that they know where the word cooperate comes from: Some umlautey language with polka dots above the vowels.Is ignorance, now, supposed to cure me of my "disease"?
14: Puhleeze.
15: Actually, I'm more worried about your disease of utter humorlessness.
11 yes, may be, what?
coz i'm usually never late to update my clothes according to the weather and the seasons
just not feeling hot was a surprise, anemia perhaps
cheers
Hey! I have a friend in Copenhagen.
mine was like a comparison with some strange people saying indeed
Heh. Indeed.
I clicked through to the Pajamas Media story Rottin' linked to, saw Ron Rosenbaum's name on the sidebar, and wondered again how a nice columnist like him got mixed up with that bunch of bozos.
Further, on the pronunciation of foreign place-names thing:
I totally get the argument about foreign places that have English-translated (for lack of a better term) names. "Köln" is distracting and unnecessary. But what to do about the marginal cases?
Bregenz doesn't have an "English" equivalent. Clearly an American confronted with it would make a sound similar to beg-ends. But that doesn't make such a pronunciation preferable to the German (or "correct") one. The German pronunciation is still intelligible to all but the densest Americans, plus is meaningful to far more non-Americans. The nearby village of Hohenweiler is in a sense a better example - who benefits from making the "w" sound in the middle there? It makes it harder to get your mouth around, and doesn't mean anything to anyone.
This applies to personal names as well, I might add. Should I really introduce my FIL to Americans as Wolfgang, not [vulf-gong]? I wouldn't expect him to introduce me to his neighbors by starting my name with "y" sound. He calls my daughter eye-ris, not ee-ris, even though the latter is a recognizable German name (plus of course more mythologically correct).
So, to sum up: I shit on the cosmopolitans of the world, with their faux-provincial pronunciations.
15: He's wrong about its source, but 100% right that the "umlauts in English sentences" thing is pretentious and annoying. How many people who can read English really need to be reminded to pronounce the second "o" in "coordinated," or the second "e" in "preempted"? Ludicrous.
20: Finally, a reasonable human being.
Confession: I had a dream this morning that w-lfs-n put up an elaborate post about diaeresis. I've spent too much goddamn time here.
He's wrong about its source, but 100% right that the "umlauts in English sentences" thing is pretentious and annoying. How many people who can read English really need to be reminded to pronounce the second "o" in "coordinated," or the second "e" in "preempted"? Ludicrous.
There are no umlauts in "coördinated" or "preëmpted", DS.
There's lots of umlaut in English, though. As I said above, "men" exhibits umlaut.
24: "Umlaut" in the sense of the diacritic, not the fronting of a vowel, you ignorant heathen.
Ooh, I've got another one on 19: What about bad, but universally accepted, English pronunciations of foreign words? Gur-tah, the famous German poet, has been quite victimized by Americans (possibly English as well; I don't know how they pronounce the name). So what's the accepted course? Presumably [go-eth-uh] is wrong. But Rottin' in Denmark - and B, I guess - would deprecate a proper German pronunciation. Seems like it would be tiresome to have to keep referring to "the author of Faust."
I pronounce Goethe "Guh-tuh." An Americanized version of an untranslatable word.
But I thought I'd convinced you already.
"That is a great blog. But being gay does not seem like the most prominent feature of his personality."
That would be the inarticulate self-loathing.
Does something you share with eveyone in the room count as a prominent personality feature?
28: I mostly hear people putting an R in it - it's the R that rankles. I don't fault anyone for not having a good accent, but I think there's a lot more gray area than the referenced post would admit (Hi, RiD!).
It's not limited to foreign names, of course - New Orleans is a well-known example. Pronounce it according to the general rules of Standard English, or the way the locals do, or somewhere in between? It's a puzzle.
pretentious and annoying
But if you took away pretension and annoyance, what would w-lfs-n have to do?
For the church, I say 'No-Truh Dom'. For the college, 'No-Ter Daym'. That probably makes me a hypocrite, but at least the r's come from my lips, not my esophagus.
JRoth, one can always find petty crap to quibble about, but you know in your heart of hearts that it's completely risible to pronounce "Mercedes" as "metzedes" if you're American.
But, the R is pretty much the closest sound commonly used in English to what that vowel is supposed to sound like. I don't have a problem with the Gur-tuh pronunciation.
If you *are* from New Orleans, then obviously you pronounce it as the locals do. Everyone else pronounces it "new or-leens." Which is *fine*.
Any blog that links to verite pictures of the Apostropher is a good blog!
My dear father insists on pronouncing the name of he of the Incompleteness Theorem as "gur-DEL". I guess it is only when we realize that our fathers are imperfect that we begin the journey towards true manhood.
18 indeed what?
if the post confirmation, thanks, my memory serves for now
if the indeed indeed, i don't know who Populuxe is and doubt i would ever want to know
so please ignore me further for our mutual benefit
Cryptic Ned's rule of thumb for the foreign names issue is not bad, and corresponds pretty closely to what I do. Except for German social theorists, whose names I *always* pronounce in the German manner.
If you *are* from New Orleans, then obviously you pronounce it as the locals do.
Only if you're a local. Otherwise, they hate you.
(seriously. don't pose)
If Paris, I keep my southern drawl. They find it amusing. My /p/s are pulmonic egressive because I keep it real.
further reading leaves me to believe 41 was unnecessary.
On further reflection, all of my blog comments are unnecessary.
34: As I acknowledged with Köln. And I would never pronounce a German word/name in common usage in the US with the German accent/pronunciation (I don't, for instance, drive a folks-vahg'n). My point was that it's silly to act like it's a hard-and-fast rule, when it's not - as 33 suggests.
35: But it doesn't sound at all like [Deutsch]Goethe[/Deutsch] to my ear; that's why I think it's weird. What B describes in 28 sounds closer (to me at least).
36: Not buying it. There's a town near here called North Versailles. You can guess how the provincial locals pronounce it. According to your logic, it should be pronounced by all non-locals the same way they pronounce the noted palace compound in France. But in your heart, you know that's not what you think. (Similar deal with Dubois, PA).
40: Yeah, that seems about right. As I said initially, what I object to is the faux-righteousness of the RiD/BPhD stance (no offense, RiD).
I should probably be more clear on the New Orleans example - a Northerner saying "Nwalins" is, indeed, being a poseur. But, having learned that even lightly-accented locals put the emphasis on on the OR, not the LEANS, it seems kind of dumb to pronounce it as if I'd never hear the word aloud before.
45: You're just quibbling to quibble.
You know, I honestly don't put too much thought into how I pronounce foreign place-names. If I know how to pronounce them correctly, I pronounce them correctly. If I only know how to say them in dumb American, I say them in dumb American. There are a lot of other more important things to get worked up about.
Like global warming! Or education equity!
You're just quibbling to quibble.
New hover text?
I keep refreshing Unfogged in hopes of finding reassurance in the face of Hillary´s incessant bickering. So far it´s all in vain.
If there were some other threads I could give a shit about, I might not be quibbling here.
A replay of the Barry Bonds debates, but this time on campus? Christ, I'd rather work.
36: How far can one live from New Orleans and still count as a "local"? I live 400 miles away, and I've never been there, but everyone I know pronounces it "New Orlins".
I thought only Janis Joplin was allowed to pronounce it "New Or-leens".
35: But it doesn't sound at all like [Deutsch]Goethe[/Deutsch] to my ear; that's why I think it's weird. What B describes in 28 sounds closer (to me at least).
German pronunciation (or pretty close) in the middle of English is fine by me (but I speak greater or lesser degrees of Denglish with a whole lotta people), but when I hear someone trying to approximate the German but not getting close, it just embarrasses me.* There are other names we unashamedly Americanize (say, anything in Chinese), why not Goethe?
(*Not saying that B necessarily does this.)
Not saying that B necessarily does this
ARE TOO.
There are other names we unashamedly Americanize (say, anything in Chinese), why not Goethe?
Because that sequence of letters simply has no obvious preferred pronunciation if understood as an English word. Goh-thee? Gohth? Go-eth-ee? It is better to have one pronunciation that people can at least recognize.
reassurance in the face of Hillary´s incessant bickering.
It's OK, Melvin. There's only 2 weeks left, all the superdelegates are abandoning her, and it looks like she's playing out the string rather than trying to pull a Samson-in-the-temple. Perhaps most importantly, the press has stopped pretending that it's a live race - they're running post-mortems. Just let Puerto Rico have their say, and everyone will get to hug.*
PS - You didn't go to FC Martin in Miami in 1984, did you? I don't think I've ever met another Melvin, so I might as well ask.
* This might be a bit rosy, but not by much, and Melvin wanted reassurance.
Because that sequence of letters simply has no obvious preferred pronunciation if understood as an English word. Goh-thee? Gohth? Go-eth-ee? It is better to have one pronunciation that people can at least recognize.
Exactly. But there's probably no good solution.
I pronounce it to rhyme with "purdah".
Doctor Slack, I wish you would email me.
There are other names we unashamedly Americanize (say, anything in Chinese)
"[W]e"?
I keep refreshing Unfogged in hopes of finding reassurance in the face of Hillary´s incessant bickering.
I just go here.
but when I hear someone trying to approximate the German but not getting close, it just embarrasses me.*
* which is highly entertaining.
I'm with w-lfs-n on the dieresis. What a clever, useful piece of punctuation it is! I would use it right now, if only to reënergize Ben's fateful crusade.
I'm with w-lfs-n on the dieresis.
I thought you were a better man than that. Although with the spelling error, you take with one hand what you give with the other.
66: You left out the "a". (Wikipedia claims that your spelling is an acceptable alternative. I say that such a claim is incompatible with promotion of the diacritical mark in question.)
67: what country am I in, Josh? Am I using the correct spelling for that country? I do believe I am.
YAH MOTHERFUCKER IM PEDANTIC 2!
what country am I in, Josh? Am I using the correct spelling for that country? I do believe I am.
It's not often we manage to make a thread recapitulate itself this quickly.
61: Your wish is my command; however, the gmail address on your blog keeps bouncing back to me for some reason. Maybe try dropping me a line at the address here provided.
69: shit I recapitulated that fucker in one word. C'mon. That's pretty tight.
57: No, I was busy being a fetus for the best part of 84.
63: That´s hillarious! Thanks.
Don't be down on yourself, Melvin. I'm sure your family, at least, viewed your immediate post-fetus moments as the best part of '84.
73: sure beats Reagan getting reëlected.
Oh, the shame of it; 26 is of course completely wrong. Now I have to... apologize to w-lfs-n. I'm ssssss... I'm very sssss... I'm so very... sssssss...
24: "Umlaut" in the sense of the diacritic, not the fronting of a vowel, you ignorant heathen.
Oh, I see. Well, there are no umlauts, in that sense, in coördinate or reëlect either. Those diacritical marks are diæreses. They're indistinguishable in terms of looks, but quite different.
This isn't a hard concept, you know. If I say, for instance, "If &phi occurs with probability p, and the independent event &psi occurs with probability q, then φ & ψ occurs with probability pq", you won't be confused about why I'm multiplying sentence letters together, just as, when I say, "He asserted that p", you don't think I'm talking about probability. Similarly, "Männer" contains an umlaut, but no diæresis, and "preëmpt" contains a diæresis but no umlaut.
Sifu: I just bought some grapefruit bitters and was so eager to find out what they taste like I opened the bottle outside the store and dashed a few drops onto my outheld palm, whence I licked the acrid nectar. Visions of gin promptly began swimming through my head.
Sifu: I just bought some grapefruit bitters and was so eager to find out what they taste like I opened the bottle outside the store and dashed a few drops onto my outheld palm
Oh dear lord that sounds delicious. I think to get that idea out of my head I'll have to go buy some Q Tonic on the way home. If they happen to have grapefruit bitters at the same store, hey, these things happen.
76.1 is pwned by 75. And I'm still working on it: sssss.... I'm very very ssssssss...
diæreses
See, Tweety? w-lfs-n is an unreliable ally.
I accept Sifu's spelling. My house, like the Lord's, has many rooms.
The store where I got the bitters also had fee's barrel-aged aromatic bitters, but they were $15.
Also: absinthe! The same brands as at safeway, though, for $10-$20 more.
It's so weird to me that one can buy absinthe at safeway.
80: My house, like the Lord's, has many rooms.
Including some where html enlisted in cause of pedantry comes out right?
Q Tonic liveblogging: oh my, that is good. Not so sweet! Very well balanced!
I wonder if Q could be my gateway to a wonderful new world of tonic appreciation.
Well, it still has quinine in it, which might be a problem if you don't like tonic.
Boy it sure is tasty, though. They also had some $70 a bottle gin at the liquor store which I didn't buy, but which now that I look at it.... damn, damn, damn: it was the saffron gin! Next time I'm getting some for sure.
It's true, but I like plenty of other bitter things, and have had good success at overcoming my gustatory failings in other areas, so I hold out hope.
Old Raj, right? There were two different bottles at the store I was in today (John Walker), for about that much.
I'm very excited to try Q and Plymouth, though. It'll be an adventure in smoothness! I also got some St. Germain so I can try and recreate the elderflower cocktail Deep Ellum does so well.
I'm going here tonight with BL. One the one hand: quite affected. On the other: they reputedly carry it off.
40: How do you pronounce Walter Benjamin? The going American fashion seems to be "Walter Benyameen", which is half-Anglicized, half original Deutsch. Do you rock the full-on "Vahlter"?
Whoah, they have guest bartenders? Well howdy do.
One the one hand: quite affected. On the other: that's perfect for w-lfs-n.
I guess it's not, but I've always heard Walter being pronounced the way it's pronounced in English.
Oh, wow, what an appalling crowd. Well, courage, Ben.
101: There is definitely one man in there who is Asian.
Wow, that is some kinda ugly shirt in the pic in 101.
102 is hilarious. Because it's true.
Also, there were better flapper costumes at bay to breakers. These people had better not let me down.
There is definitely one man in there who is Asian
I don't think you know what "honky" or "White People" mean, working-class lady.
Re: 101, and just so we're clear: Ogged, are you supposed to not be a honky?
My guess is that 100 and 101 are from a private parties, but I'm just being optimistic on Ben's behalf.
They're also taken in the library, rather than the more exclusive main room, which is where Ben will be if he has a reservation.
The crowd waiting to get in seems more promising. Ain't it the way.
100 is from a private party, and I will be in the main room. (It's kind of stupid that you're required to have a password, etc., to get in, since anyone can register on the website.)
Fortunately, I don't see fratdom. I just want to drink, dammit.
i always thought benjamin is pronounced as ja in jacuzzi or jazz
i wonder why the web magazine goes with whose
when it's an unanimated object
shouldn't it be which or something other then whose?
This seems like more their speed.
Fortunately, I don't see fratdom. I just want to drink, dammit.
True, true, I tease, young Benyamin. If one could only go places where tools didn't congregate, one could never go out in San Francisco.
Ogged, are you supposed to not be a honky?
Supposed, by whom?
We have a set of house rules everyone is required to follow from the term Speakeasy, meaning an establishment that was used for selling and drinking alcoholic beverages during the period of United States history known as Prohibition when selling or buying alcohol was illegal.
One of the things that is good about San Francisco is that even though people are not as attractive as they are in Los Angeles, they don't let it get in the way of having a good time. In fact, they act as if they are just as hot as LA people. The pic in 100 is a good example of this.
"Walter Benyameen", which is half-Anglicized, half original Deutsch.
This does indeed seem to be the standard American pronunciation, in academia, anyway. The other day I was in a meeting to write a final exam, and the one native German teaching the course was the only one calling him Ben-juh-min with the anglicized last name.
Supposed, by whom?
By yourself, I mean. I have my own opinion, naturally.
If one could only go places where tools didn't congregate, one could never go out in San Francisco.
This is the exactly the kind of coastal elitism that makes me glad I live amongst the regular folk in New York.
117: One could still go the Luggage Store Gallery series (at scenic 6th and Market!) or the SIMM series (slightly less scenic 9th and Mission!).
By yourself, I mean.
I'm as honky as I need to be. You should see me among the Irish.
Ogged is situationally honky, like sailors.
SIMM series
I might have been to this, or something very like it. No seats, a few beanbags on the floor, and people playing compositions of found sound, etc.
(at scenic 6th and Market!)
Ah, the old neighborhood. Still the best crack in town, I bet!
I don't recall beanbags. The SIMM series is at the musician's union hall on 9th, though it may have moved there elsewhence. But there's more than one such thing going on.
I wonder if sometime this year there will be a shirt having to do with being 28.
Ah, the old neighborhood. Still the best crack in town, I bet!
Naah, that's the mass-market stuff. You need the artisanal crack if you really want to represent.
Ogged is aspirationally honky, and for the most part quite successful.
40: How do you pronounce Walter Benjamin? The going American fashion seems to be "Walter Benyameen", which is half-Anglicized, half original Deutsch. Do you rock the full-on "Vahlter"?
I realize my style on this follows that of WFMT, where a decidedly foreign muscian, never resident in the US or an English-speaking country, such as the pianist Walter Gieseking, does get the full-on "Vahlter."
How weird, I don't see why that's mean at all.
You don't understand the ways of the Canucks.
She's saying ogged wants to be a honky.
No one aspires to honkydom. Some are born honkies, and some have honkydom thrust upon them, but honkydom is not an achievement.
138.2: Yes, I understand, but surely aspiring to (yuppie/cosmopolitan-style) honkydom is something people do, and without much shame.
than
the magazine seems an exception, google gives like more than a million hits for the magazine whose, i did not know
should just read the grammar
That doesn't mean that to be classed among those people isn't mean.
People do all kinds of crazy things, after all.
You don't understand the ways of the Canucks.
Well, it's nice to know that somebody has learned the lesson of NAFTA-gate.
We have a set of house rules....
Fuck you and fuck your rules.
141.2: Gotcha. I guess, to be completely honest, that I thought ogged was pretty much completely on board with the honky thing. Sort of the way in which, if which someone decides to call me a hippie, I don't consider it mean, because I don't consider it an epithet.
But point taken.
93: That "bar" demands that there be some kind of textual rendering of the hand-jerking motion which is generally understood to mean that something is wankerish. And the patrons in that one photo could all definitely use a good smack in the mouth. Still, I bet they have fun karaoke nights.
You might be looking for "fap", minnie.
94: "VAHL-tehr BEN-yah-meen"
Well there you go! Learn something new every day, by golly.
Do you have advice for, or about, China?
||
Man, I feel sort of badly about 144, and see now that it involves a typo as well. But lo, I discover that my mom is offering to see a local production of Godspell at the end of June when I go up to visit her in N.H. I'd asked for something for us to do together, out and about. I did not expect this. This is great. She's just turned 70 and has been fretting; "Let's go see Godspell" is just great.
|>
"VAHL-tehr BEN-yah-meen
VAHLtehr, BEN-yah-meen, welcome
Fremde, étranger, stranger...
Maybe I'm soliciting advice from China, ever think of that Mr. Smartypants? Talk about your soft-bigotry-of-low-expectations, jeez! China's been around a lot longer than I have, why would I presume to advise them?
Maybe China could've advised me about that "fap" deal, had I but thought to ask.
Amanda Marcotte speculated recently that one of the American Idol contestants sabotaged themselves* by performing a Godspell song for ALW night. She thought that enough of a share of red-blooded Christian Americans hated Godspell on sacrilege grounds to make it an unwise choice. Plausible?
*Still deprecated?
151: I think I'm going to start mentally pronouncing w-lfs-n's name as "BEN-yah-meen VULF-son".
Who bothers to say BEN-yah-meen's first name?
154: I can't speak to the American Idol contestant. But I was a little surprised that my mom was up for seeing a production of Godspell. I mean, it's been a long time, but I thought it was considered sacrilegious, yeah. Plausible with respect to American Idol, then, if the audience is important (what's ALW night? Audience ... something?) No idea how that show operates, as you can tell.
155: Christopher Hitchens will get you, anti-Semite.
I try not to mind when someone says "Eye-talian" for "Italian" (even though, and in all honesty, "Eye-talian" really does sort of grate on me), because a). I think it's the worst kind of snobbishness to care about such things; and b.) I realize there are an awful lot of words/names that I haven't a clue how to pronounce.
A couple of times in grad school, I was pretty seriously mortified when I mispronounced a name and was corrected in front of others in a manner that made me feel, well, pretty seriously f'ing mortified. In one case, it was a French name that I pronounced the way it's said in my home and native land, which is to say, you ignorant arrogant dumbass yankees (no hard feelings, though!), the way it's actually supposed to sound (so: "bois" don't rhyme with "boys," okay?). Not that I'm bitter or anything. In the other cases, I have nothing to plead but my own ignorance, which admittedly is not much of an excuse.
157: So, it's been that many years (since 2003 at least?) since I've been avoiding reading Hitchens, has it?
a). I think it's the worst kind of snobbishness to care about such things
OTOH, people who obviously couldn't care less how to pronounce foreign or unusual names -- as in, not even going through the motions of trying to sound it out -- are pretty annoying.
160: I blame the educational system. No, wait, I blame capitalism. I blame, uh, the patriarchy? No, that won't work here without some major contortions.
But yes, people who seem to refuse to even *look* at the name are ... puzzling.
I have been "corrected" when saying "Goethe" as "Goethe". ("It's pronounced Gur-tuh, you know".) Also "bruschetta". Sometimes it's just not worth it.
Then there was that Twisty post about niçoise.
But I was a little surprised that my mom was up for seeing a production of Godspell. I mean, it's been a long time, but I thought it was considered sacrilegious, yeah.
It's borderline, I'm pretty sure. I saw a production when I was in grade 9, and it was on a field trip to the National Arts Centre from my RC school, and the folk-mass types were of course all in favour, and all about how this would enrich our faith and make it "relevant to what the kids are going through," whereas Father O'[my own first cousin once removed], the psycho-padre who used to throw boys against the lockers in a most shockingly violent matter, at least by todays' standards (which standards I support, by the way), fulminated loudly against such shenanigans, but to no good effect so far as I could see.
When I think of Godspell, I think of Bonne Bell lipgloss and feathered bangs and whether to prefer Starsky or Hutch. So I doubt I took much away from it of a strictly spiritual nature, in other words.
the psycho-padre who used to throw boys against the lockers in a most shockingly violent matter
Yes, but then he'd kiss them so gently.
I'm one of those annoying twits that tries to pronounce foreign names correctly (not necessarily with the proper accent, mind you, but with the consonants, vowels and dipthongs pronounced roughly in accordance with local usage). So when our au pair brought around another au pair friend who hails from South Africa and goes by "B.", I asked her to tell me her full name. The girl proceeded to utter the most unintelligible sequence of sounds I have ever heard. I just called her "B." after that.
158: People from outside of the area often aren't sure whether a word is given an English or French pronunciation. (North Versailles, anyone?) And I hear the same is true in some of the Southwest, but with Spanish towns and things that anglicized long ago (made confusing with the prevalence of newer Spanish things that aren't anglicized.)
Still, as long as you don't insist that we're mispronouncing "Detroit", it's all good. As far as pronouncing other foreign, bastardized pronunciations, try not to sound like the guy who hosts Jeopardy and brings out the full accent whenever he gets to read a foreign word in a clue. Names are a little trickier. By and large, if I had to systematize the way I'd tend to half-Anglicize something, I'd probably shift the vowels (without the nasals, usually) and leave most of the consonants alone (j being an exception -- I'm thinking mostly of the French 'n' and 'r' and 'l'.)
German gives me headaches because while my vocabulary is nearly gone, my pronunciation is still quite good and I never know what the usual half-Americanization is for most of the proper names.
Then there was that Twisty post about niçoise.
Also, crème anglaise.
I was a little surprised that my mom was up for seeing a production of Godspell. I mean, it's been a long time, but I thought it was considered sacrilegious
This is true of all pop cultural works that are at least semi-sincere in their Christianity. Within two, three generations at most they will be fully accepted into the canon of devotional art. The hymns of the era of the Great Awakening were once thought to be appalling departures from the sacramental tradition; today, they are the sacramental tradition. Our grandchildren will open up the hymnal on Sunday and sing Simple Things.
Dammit, Cala, stop being so reasonable! and understand that you are posting on a weblog, for god's sake. On the Internets, there's no percentage in fairness, after all.
I would never object to the American pronunciation of "Detroit," or to any American pronunciation whatsoever, except to those insisted upon by certain pencil-necked geeks who don't even know what they're talking about, and who need to get over their anal-retentive toilet training, anyway.
It's all good, though. Just say it how you feel it, or how you heard it, and let the detractors be damned.
168: you pronounced "toilet" wrong.
I just called her "B." after that.
It's really offensive to call a woman after her bra size, Knecht.
169: Anti-"Papist." Just sayin', and no hard feelings, of course.
My Catholic high school did "Godspell" for our musical one year. Insanely, they gave me a duet (with a friend of mine who could actually sing).
171: dude I totally wipe. Every time!
Good grief, what's the problem with nicoise? I know only one way to pronounce it.
Generally speaking, pronounce in such a way that your hearers will understand you. Well, within reason. I'm not going to adopt something ludicrous like "Go-eeth-ee", but that's surely not necessary; yet I'm not going to bother asking for a raisin "scon" in a basic coffee shop in full knowledge that it'll get me a blank stare.
This is true of all pop cultural works that are at least semi-sincere in their Christianity.
That's what's strange about Godspell: it's pretty sincere. It's not like it's Jesus Christ Superstar -- something my mother forbade me to listen to aloud (headphones only) when I was in high school. As noted, I'm sort of pleased that she suggested this. If she's willing to watch a bunch of 70s/hippie types run around and sing about god, I'm willing to listen to religious stuff. Comity.
171: I ain't anti no "Paper", is all I'm saying. When it comes to pullin' sheets off the roll? Papist 100%.
175 makes me realize that I was confusing JCS, which is by Andrew Lloyd Webber and which Marcotte was talking about, with Godspell.
176: but where do you stand on crumpling versus folding? The Inquisition wants to know!
178: one oughtn't crumple the pope.
177: Ah. Yeah. I'm not sure what in JCS you could sing for mainstream America without getting into trouble.
I think most people pronounce something the last way they heard it pronounced, or the last way someone corrected their pronunciation. For example, I pronounce Goethe as "Gur-tuh", because that's how my high school English teacher told me it was pronounced, and it's never come up since. (After this thread, I have no idea of how it's supposed to be pronounced.)
173: Youse is like the mayor of the town of Shawville that my parents call Boyneville, maybe. "Did he not make his First Communion?", someone might innocently (ha!) ask. "Oh, he was as black as your boots," my mother might respond, and "sure, wasn't his upbringing just like an Orange picnic?," and I swear to God this would have nothing to do with American racial politics whatsoever, but would just be a backward way of holding grudges long overdue in a backward land where it still matters whether you are RC or Protestant. Timothy Eaton used to insist on pulling the blinds down on a Sunday, and that was what we called "the black Protestants." That was a great department store while it lasted, though, no matter what my mother might used to say.
A lot of liberal Americans don't really understand the true backwardness of Canada. They just look at the health care premiums (on which point, yeah, points to Canada!), but they've never tried to hang out at the local Kiwanis Club, where there's no do-ever, and no refashioning yourself, and you just are who you are and everybody knows it, and no mistake.
Part of the point on Goethe is that the vowel sound really doesn't exist in English. My German teacher described it as forming your lips into an O and then saying ee. That will at least get you in the neighborhood.
But there's really no R at all.
I've never understood the whole black Irish, lace curtain Irish, whatever other options there are Irish thing.
This bothers me because I'm about 25-38% Irish.
I've never understood the whole black Irish, lace curtain Irish, whatever other options there are Irish thing.
This bothers me because I'm about 25-38% Irish.
183: my German teacher (who comments here: GUESS WHO?!?) described it as keeping your tongue positioned to make an "e" sound, but changing your mouth to make an "O".
(I said that wrong, and will rely on her to take the blame. I assume.
Danke süße!)
My German teacher described saying 'ue' as 'say e, but with your lips out, like you're trying to kiss a dead fish' (lips as far away as possible.)
but they've never tried to hang out at the local Kiwanis Club, where there's no do-ever, and no refashioning yourself, and you just are who you are and everybody knows it, and no mistake.
MC, not that this an argument to have, win, or lose, but are you sure you know large swaths of the US? My home town (mid-state Massachusetts, a notable population of Irish, Polish and French-Canadians) was a lot like this. I had the impression that a great many mid- and small-size towns were, and still are, but perhaps things have changed quite a bit in 20 years, here if not in Canada.
A lot of liberal Americans don't really understand the true backwardness of Canada.
But when we do understand it, and loathe accordingly, we get condemned for bigotry. Hmph.
(And re. 188, there was a *reason* I identified my location, online, as "the upper midwest," and it wasn't just geographic.) (Which would have been inaccurate anyway, since upstate NY is not exactly "midwest.")
184: Well, never mind the black Irish, because that's altogether too specialized, maybe.
In North American terms, it's all about the shanty Irish versus the lace curtain Irish, of course. The lace curtains are the arsehole wannabes who vote Republican, basically, and who think Bertie 'No Bank Account' Ahern presenting a potted shamrock to George Dubya on 17 March is a truly touching moment. Not that I'm biased, or anything.
I have encountered the phrase "black Irish" in two places in my life.
A) "The Bonfire of the Vanities", in which it seemed like such a bizarre phrase that I assumed it referred to a black guy who had a fiery Irish temperament, which would have made a lot more sense
B) Unfogged
but are you sure you know large swaths of the US?
Nope. Not sure at all. I know very little of America, really. I do know Canada, I'm pretty sure, but that's not the same thing.
186 and 187 get it right. Except that ö is the "bed" e sound, and ü is the eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee sound.
I always thought "black Irish" meant black-haired Irish.
But when we do understand it, and loathe accordingly, we get condemned for bigotry. Hmph.
Oh, c'mon B, and be fair. You know I have acknowledged on more than one occasion that I do understand where you're coming from. In that part of Ontario where you found yourself, I would probably treated as an exotic outsider, and I'm a born and bred Canuck, for god's sake, as you well know.
You're wrong to generalize the attitudes of the United Empire Loyalists to the rest of Canada, though, and probably you would like Vancouver.
192: We might rest on the possibility that the so-called coastal elites here don't quite get the provinces, whether here or there.
195: I do like Vancouver; it's lovely.
BUT I RESERVE THE RIGHT TO GENERALIZE.
You're thanking God? I take it all back. Typical Ottawan.
18{3,6,7}: these are all attempts to get you to front the vowel properly.
That bar w-lfs-n took me to was so pretentious! Tasty drinks though. But passwords + darkness =spy novel set in Berlin feel. I am tipsy.
This discussion still hasn't satisfactorily determined whether Americans should pronounce the invisible sneaky "R" in "dalek".
A lot of liberal Americans don't really understand the true backwardness of Canada.
Lord knows I try to explain things to them. B. is a unique special case, though. She is too fine a lady to be happy anywhere but in Stockton.
lace-curtain Irish: In my 80% white lower-middle-class neighborhood next to the train tracks I saw a black guy down the street moving his stuff in while playing hiphop. Right when I walked past his car he was unloading his lace curtains. I decided I didn't need to alert the neighborhood watch.
A lot of liberal Americans don't really understand the true backwardness of Canada. They just look at the health care premiums (on which point, yeah, points to Canada!), but they've never tried to hang out at the local Kiwanis Club, where there's no do-ever, and no refashioning yourself, and you just are who you are and everybody knows it, and no mistake.
I've seen a paradoxical attitude in those who've thought about it at all. Paradoxical in that USans are often deeply baffled by the differences which they assumed to not exist, when they take a job in Canada such as as a clergyman, where anticipating reactions and getting what people really mean are important. The problem seems to be that the similarity of culture, of what's in the stores and on TV, should make people the same, when of course they don't.
On the other hand, the divergent social policies are easier to rationalize when assumptions are made that Canada is a more peaceful, law-abiding, cosmopolitan country. You saw some of that in Bowling for Columbine, where he asked Americans and they quickly reached for non-existent social differences to explain different policies. Short visits to Toronto or Vancouver reinforce for many liberal tourists this cosmopolitan impression.
I actually believe that you can't have a healthy welfare state without a lot of stodginess. Scandinavians are stodgier than people think too. Hung-loose, ironic Americans cheat as much as they can get away with, really hate to pay taxes, and are quite happy with the law of the jungle as long as they are still able to think of themselves as lions or hyenas, rather than as prey species.
Well, never mind the black Irish, because that's altogether too specialized, maybe.
In North American terms, it's all about the shanty Irish versus the lace curtain Irish, of course.
I see that once again the bog Irish get completely
cut out of the deal.
themselves
*Still deprecated?
No. Celebrated, in fact.
This reminds me that when I asserted my pedantic grammarian credentials the other day, I forgot to mention that I once went to a fetish party dressed as good grammar.
But passwords + darkness =spy novel set in Berlin feel.
The feeling of a spy novel set in Berlin is appealing. The feeling of being surrounded a bunch of pretentious clods unconvincingly pretending to be in such a novel, though, seems less so.
208. What is good grammar wearing this season?
I imagine Good Grammar as Scarlett Johansson wearing a skintight catsuit.
209: How dare you call Belle Lettre a pretentious clod.
I imagine Good Grammar as Scarlett Johansson apostropher wearing a skintight catsuit.
Don't worry, I hear it all the time.
I imagine Good Grammar The Last Man as apostropher wearing a skintight catsuit.
205: Indeed. Americans go on vacation to Vancouver or Toronto, find them to be charming cosmopolitan cities, and assume that all of Canada is like that, plus with health care, and that it's this liberal paradise. They need to meet my rural in-laws. (And no, Alberta is not the same as Texas.)
This comes up on my immigration board from time to time, especially when Canadians move from Toronto to small-town America and begin to construct these ridiculous narratives of what are 'American' things and what are 'Canadian' things. (For example, the girl's name 'Elizabeth' is a Canadian name, such that anyone named Elizabeth is likely to be Canadian.) Stuff that isn't really a nation-based cultural difference gets earmarked as one.
Not that there aren't differences between the two countries (dude. Quebec.), but my sense is that the differences within each country often dwarf the difference between the two. In other words, I'd be more comfortable moving to Vancouver than I would to Lawton, OK, but for reasons that don't have much to do with the country.
209, 212: The waitresses kept ignoring Ben and me!
And we were dressed up all snazzy and at least w-lfs-n knew what he was ordering. Perhaps they were judging my black dress + colorful tights look, and Ben his non-douchey linen shirt from that store Ogged likes. Perhaps we were trying too hard to "class it up," and clearly they prefer clientele in the costumes from "A Night at the Roxbury. "
I hate it when the bartenders and waitress in San Francisco ignore me at "cool" bars and clubs. It reminds me of high school, or living in Los Angeles, which are roughly equivalent experiences.
non-douchey
Yes, that does sound like it was your(plural) error. Curses! I'm glad at least the drinks were decent.
Every country has cosmopolitan and backwards regions; I'm not getting the force of the point here. For someone who moves to Toronto from the US, "Canada" might as well be a liberal paradise for all he can tell.
but my sense is that the differences within each country often dwarf the difference between the two
Sure, but there is I think a difference between the two countries after all that is sorted out, providing it can be.
Your "Elizabeth" story is ludicrous, but people make such generalizations all the time. An example is the inherent difference between large and small congregations in worship style and music, within denominations/religions. Yet huge numbers of people comparing a small congregation in one faith to a large in another, attribute all the difference to doctrine/ethnicity of membership.
The force of the point is that Canada is assumed to be monolithic based on a handful of experiences in Toronto or Vancouver, and that leads to people saying stupid things.
Canada has more trichinosis because they live primarily on wild bear meat.
My first experience of Canada was an impoverished Native Canadian wilderness area just north of the U.S. border (south of Kenora). Restrooms were plumbing-free. But that was a long time ago.
Isn't Canada more urban than the U.S.? And there's no real South or Southwest, and a lot of West. And the Maritimes are pretty Appalachian.
The average American is urban, but the most specifically American areas are thought to be rural, including almost-extinct cultures like the old-fashioned Yankees of New England.
What is good grammar wearing this season?
Out: dangling participles
In: anacoluthon
Out: verbification
In: the present conditional mood constructed by inversion
Sure, but there is I think a difference between the two countries after all that is sorted out, providing it can be.
I'd agree, but it's not going to be as simple as policy positions. I'm not quite sure how to characterize it seriously (besides making jokes about niceness being a national pathology), but it's got something to do with a collective instinctual reaction to problems. What does Canada do with a problem? Find a solution. What does America do? Kick its ass. This mindset seems to exist even if we agree on the solution, and the solution isn't particularly violent. They feed people. We have a war on hunger. But even that's probably too simplistic.
Another one: shivbunny and I were once talking about rural Albertans and how much they like their shotguns, and even though it sounded like it could have been a conversation about Americans, he pointed out simply 'we don't have a second Amendment', and that changes what options are on the table.
Ben his non-douchey linen shirt from that store Ogged likes.
Whole Foods sells linen shirts now?
The problem seems to be that the similarity of culture, of what's in the stores and on TV, should make people the same, when of course they don't.
I've been to Canada a number of times now, mostly the Niagara area and TO, but also rural Ottawa. I always rave to Americans about how it's the wildest foreign experience possible, because it's just like America, but totally different. And I don't just mean the poutine.
What is good grammar wearing this season?
Whole Foods sells linen shirts now?
Actually, they might. I know they sell hemp shirts.
I hate it when the bartenders and waitress in San Francisco ignore me at "cool" bars and clubs. It reminds me of high school, or living in Los Angeles, which are roughly equivalent experiences.
This is where my down-home Pittsburgh self can't imagine the life you decadent coastal elites live.
Whole Foods sells linen shirts now?
I got a bunch of linen dishrags and sort of draped them around my chest.
but also rural Ottawa
What, where? With Penny, whom I haven't seen around lately, that makes four of us familiar with that small place.
The force of the point is that Canada is assumed to be monolithic based on a handful of experiences in Toronto
Actually, my first impression of Toronto was, "Hey! This place isn't all that clean!" I felt very cheated. When you take into account that visitors never go to the slummier parts (Canadian cities do have slummy parts, right?), the notion that Canadian cities are much cleaner is probably wholly fallacious.
I got a bunch of linen dishrags and sort of draped them around my chest.
Hott.
What is good grammar wearing this season?
I'm afraid the answer's going to be a bit anti-climatic; no catsuits were involved. I cut up my Schoolhouse Rock calendar and pinned the various pictures onto my regular old clothes (I believe Conjunction Junction got pride of place of my ass) and wore a red pen around my neck.
It was a last minute sort of thing, so I didn't have time to do anything more elaborate. Nevertheless, I managed to stand out amidst the golden showers and Lewinsky-related cigars & etc.
What, where?
Palmerston.
Also: Guelph seems really nice, but I was only there for one evening.
Canadian cities do have slummy parts, right?
The worst slums of the Greater Toronto Area (taking that as a proxy for the worst in Canada--I could be wrong) wouldn't even make the top 20 in the U.S. measured by level of danger, social disorder, or atmosphere of desperate hopelessness. Possibly not even the top 50.
The relative absence of guns is a big factor, as is the more complex relationship between race, housing patterns, and urban poverty.
By contrast, the most dismal rural poverty in Canada easily matches the worst of the U.S.
Conjunction Junction got pride of place on my ass
The corresponding spot on the front was "Interjections", I presume?