Re: Let's Game This Out

1

Sandow Birk's mockumentary about the war of the Californias is funny


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 9:33 AM
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That it is. The paintings are often great, too.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 9:35 AM
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What would this hypothetical Civil War be fought over? Surely not slavery.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 9:38 AM
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Only the slavery of our minds. No, over the fact that we hate each other's guts.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 9:39 AM
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Do more to lay the groundwork, ogged. What's the dividing issue, absent slavery? Or are you just looking for something potted along the lines of David Brooks's "red states dance like this, but blue states dance like that"?


Posted by: Eric | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 9:39 AM
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White People love having reasons for fighting, don't they?


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 9:41 AM
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We'd win, by a lot. Cash counts, and so does population.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 9:42 AM
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Our god is an awesomer god in the blue states!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 9:42 AM
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Cash counts

Cash? Where's the manufacturing base these days? Who has ready access to military hardware? Who, if the war drags on, can still grow food? These are genuine questions.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 9:43 AM
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This would be the War Between the Hillary States and the Obama States? I think the Obama forces would take a long time to win, or in warfighting parlance, "close the deal."


Posted by: bill | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 9:44 AM
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I accept Sifu's endorsement. He is a great spiritual leader here at Unfogged blue.


Posted by: Will | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 9:45 AM
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Where's the manufacturing base these days?
China. Feel free to increase that trade deficit.


Posted by: disaggregated | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 9:45 AM
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Montana'd be on its own side. And TOTALLY win.


Posted by: Cecily | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 9:47 AM
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Given 4, I'm going to take the heretically Broderite position that real America isn't that partisan. Without a premise that's at least somewhat realistic the question doesn't go anywhere, or else it goes wherever you feel like without proving anything. If Republicans began literal pogroms against liberals, or if the Weathermen reform and actually manage to kill someone other than themselves, 95 percent of America would be united against them for the foreseeable future.

But if I had to guess, I'd say it wouldn't be state-by-state, but urban/suburban/exurban against rural America. Philadelphia and Pittsburgh against Pennsyltucky, New York City against the Finger Lakes region, etc.


Posted by: Cyrus | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 9:47 AM
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Will this game be more like D&D or Risk?

Can we play it on the Wii?

I call Cala, JRoth, Di, and DS.


Posted by: Will | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 9:48 AM
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My state has lots of tough scars, and can fight 36 five-year-olds.


Posted by: marichiweu | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 9:48 AM
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Oh, and Napi will be our ambassador trying to negotiate the terms of your surrender.


Posted by: Will | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 9:48 AM
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We'd win, by a lot. Cash counts, and so does population.

If you're going by cash and population, I wouldn't bet against the modern south.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 9:49 AM
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If there were a civil war these days, we'd nuke each other forthwith.

Now that that's settled, on to more important questions: how many counterfactuals could you take in a fight?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 9:49 AM
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15: Ok, but don't forget Jesus McQueen, will. Our team is going to need wine.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 9:50 AM
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Among the Unfoggetariat, only mcmanus has the expertise to illuminate these issues.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 9:50 AM
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Without a premise that's at least somewhat realistic

President-elect Obama is assassinated on January 8, 2009.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 9:51 AM
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19: eleventeen!


Posted by: Cecily | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 9:51 AM
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If it broke down along red state/blue state lines, it's pretty clear that the red states would win, because they have the loyalty of the officer corps. (I'm assuming for the sake of argument that we're talking about a war over control of the whole country, rather than a war over red state seccession, in which many officers would presumably remain loyal to the Constitution.

The South also got the better part of the Army officers in 1860, but it mattered less then, because of the well-known advantages of the North (naval assets, railroads, manufacturing, population, etc.), but especially because the difference between "a whole bunch of guys with firearms" and "an effective, well-equipped fighting force" is vastly, vastly larger today than it was then.


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 9:51 AM
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22: By whom?


Posted by: disaggregated | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 9:52 AM
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Exurban goes with rural. That's where the loony churches full of rich stupid people are. Suburban would be divided.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 9:52 AM
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27

By whom?

Victor Davis Hanson.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 9:53 AM
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesusland_map is basically what we're talking about, right? Maybe we can add a bit of the Mountain West to the forces of good but pretty much it's a question of whether the combined might of New England and the West Coast can (with an assist from our little buddies up North) overcome Flyover Country + the South?


Posted by: Mother's Younger Brother | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 9:53 AM
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22: by Bobby Jindal?

The civil war, if you'll recall, had decades of buildup, and ended despite the assassination of the President. The idea that Obama getting killed would trigger a civil war needs a little fleshing out, let's say.

On the other hand, isn't there a whole subset of Left Behind-ish neoconfederate literature that takes up exactly this question, with the heroic rednecks eventually blowing up the White House and emerging victorious?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 9:55 AM
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pretty much it's a question of whether the combined might of New England and the West Coast can (with an assist from our little buddies up North) overcome Flyover Country + the South?

Excluding nukes, whoever has more USAF planes wins.


Posted by: disaggregated | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 9:55 AM
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I want Gary Farber on my side. He's point and shoot.


Posted by: Populuxe | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 9:55 AM
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Exurban goes with rural.

And once they combine forces and sieze control of the Whole Foods distribution centers by the Interstate, it would be like Sherman taking Atlanta: just a matter of time before the enemy is starved into submission.


Posted by: KR | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 9:55 AM
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33

Excellent call, Di. We better grab Apo too. We need to blockade those bastards from all the fun stuff.


Posted by: Will | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 9:56 AM
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34

The photo in the post indicates that my state has made some progress since the days when African-Americans were required by law to be whipped twice yearly until they left.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 9:57 AM
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22: By Senator John McCain.

Now we're playing for keeps


Posted by: disaggregated | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 9:58 AM
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isn't there a whole subset of Left Behind-ish neoconfederate literature that takes up exactly this question, with the heroic rednecks eventually blowing up the White House and emerging victorious

Yeah, including a trilogy by the guy who used to lead the majority party in Congress.

This is one of those shocking facts that always pulls me back to earth whenever I start to convince myself that our political culture isn't that much different from other countries.


Posted by: KR | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 9:59 AM
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37

That Obama picture makes me wonder where so many people got blue Decembrists signs.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 10:00 AM
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38

15: Woot!


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 10:00 AM
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39

22: By Senator John McCain.

Or Bill Clinton.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 10:00 AM
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40

Excluding nukes, whoever has more USAF planes wins.

So basically, whoever can gain control of New Mexico wins.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 10:01 AM
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41

the South. Let's face it; we want it more.


Posted by: Michael | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 10:02 AM
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42

At a very quick look, I see the following.

Top ten states for manufacturing value added in descending order: California, Texas, Ohio, Illinois, Pennsylvania, North Carolina, Michigan, Indiana, New York, and Louisiana.

Top ten states for agricultural output in descending order: California, Texas, Iowa, Nebraska, Kansas, Minnesota, North Carolina, Illinois, Wisconsin, and Florida.

Top ten states for DoD personnel in descending order: Virginia, California, Texas, North Carolina, Georgia, Florida, Washington, Hawaii, Maryland, and Kentucky.

Of course there are all kinds of other metrics one would want to apply, but there's a start. Choose your coalitions accordingly.


Posted by: Eric | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 10:02 AM
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43

39: I doubt Bill gets many people on his side.


Posted by: disaggregated | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 10:02 AM
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44

Seriously, which states would be on which side would depend a lot on what the exact issue is that leads to war.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 10:03 AM
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45

With Cuba and Nicaragua on the side of the Blue States, the Reds wouldn't stand a chance.


Posted by: Populuxe | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 10:03 AM
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46

by whom? By the Greek, a character on a television show who isn't even Greek, but embodies amoral capitalism. Or maybe by the ghost of Timothy McVeigh. Or that guy with the great speech in Syriana. These last are a genuine fear of my mother's, though she apparently enjoys pointless anxiety.


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 10:04 AM
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The key dividing line will be mass transit, people. The Jesusland people will have a lot of tanks, but no way to refuel them. Meanwhile, the Good Guys will be able to take buses and light rail to the front.

We can be assured that the bus lines will remain secure, as no self-respecting Jesuslander would be caught dead on one.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 10:04 AM
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48

If it broke down along red state/blue state lines, it's pretty clear that the red states would win, because they have the loyalty of the officer corps.

I was thinking about that--it's a good point--but, OTOH, Iraq's much, much smaller. And, on a bet, the rest of the world comes in on the blue state side and the blue states retain much of the IP creation infrastructure.

Of course, as Sifu points out, this will never ever ever happen. Thank God. We don't really hate them, and they don't really hate us.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 10:04 AM
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49

Actually, given that the loony Christians have control of the Air Force Academy they'd probably have a leg up.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 10:04 AM
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50

I say we fight it out in Civ 4 and I get to be the Romans.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 10:04 AM
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51

Oh god, they're going to lay siege to California, aren't they?


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 10:05 AM
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52

The DoD personnel metric is skewed by military bases location. I'd like to see a report on "HS last attended."


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 10:05 AM
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42: So, a coalition around California and Texas wins. Also, they've got 60M population combined. Will they, under any parameters end up on the same team?


Posted by: disaggregated | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 10:05 AM
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This is very timely as Virginia is having a sales tax holiday on Hurricane and Emergency Preparedness Equipment.

http://www.tax.virginia.gov/site.cfm?alias=HurricanePreparednessEquipmentHoliday

For some odd reason, they neglected to include varmit-shooting guns on the list.


Posted by: Will | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 10:07 AM
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I call Cala, JRoth, Di, and DS.

Is there some way I could get involved as a war profiteer with no particular loyalty to either side? There will surely be a demand for a smuggling trade to supply the red states with porn and the blue states with cigarettes.

I wonder if I'm still bilingual enough to make it as a spy for the blue states.

INTEROGATOR: "All right son. If you're a real red-stater, tell me, what kind of car did Burt Reynolds drive in Smokey and the Bandit?"


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 10:07 AM
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56

Will they, under any parameters end up on the same team?

Probably not. So, stalemate.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 10:07 AM
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57

You know, thinking about it, this is actually a lot sillier than the war between the Californias. We might as well argue about who would win if the coastal cities were able to mount thrusters to their undersides and fly around terrorizing rural areas.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 10:07 AM
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58

White People love having reasons for fighting, don't they?

or so the mullahs would have you believe


Posted by: Michael | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 10:08 AM
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59

We would also have an advantage in the event of a timely eclipse - while our scientists would be able confidently to predict its arrival, their shaman leaders would be petrified at the disappearance of their god.

It's possible that I'm not entirely familiar with the precise theology of megachurches.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 10:08 AM
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60

Maybe trench warfare along the Continental Divide.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 10:09 AM
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49: Stood up in a wedding at the AF Acad a few years ago. It's really quite phenomenal how many times the "submissive wife" verse can be crammed into just one ceremony. So, confirming the "loony Christian" thing, but the plus side is you only have to win over half of the hearts and minds.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 10:09 AM
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62

you know, as long as texas is on the losing side...that's really what matters


Posted by: Michael | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 10:09 AM
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63

Weird. Latest SurveyUSA poll of Ohio. Straight up head-to-head has Obama over McCain 48-39. However, once you add in different pairings of potential VPs, it narrows to a statistical tie, except:

If Edwards is the Dem VP, Obama's lead widens in every matchup.
If Pawlenty is the GOP VP, Obama's lead shrinks a little but stays outside the MoE, while Not Sure grows at the expense of both candidates.

They didn't poll an Obama/Clinton ticket, fwiw.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 10:10 AM
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Hey Eric, I just learned today that you wrote a book about the New Deal. I'm gonna have to read that sucker. Good thing you weren't around the other day when I was mouthing off about rural electrification, I probably would have gotten my ass handed to me.


Posted by: KR | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 10:10 AM
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This is all going to get really ugly over collegiate athletics:

Bowl system v. playoffs.
compensation of athletes.
Football coach compensation.
Whether athletes should take classes.

Texas, Michigan, Florida, Ohio, California secede and join forces.


Posted by: Will | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 10:10 AM
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63: Edwards has been polling really well in these (meaningless, early) state-by-state match-up polls. Too bad they're meaningless.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 10:11 AM
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51: Impossible. The war then becomes a massive pincer movement stretching from Mexico up the West Coast, across Canada and down through the Northeast. The rebels will be forced into the sea off South Carolina, and then we burn Atlanta just out of nostalgia.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 10:11 AM
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55 is too easy, dating back, as it does, to a period of shared culture between the two sides.

Thing is, Jesuslanders are already arranged into divisions - many of their vehicles already have unit numbers on them (3 Corps appears to be enormous, while the 42nd Airborne is mostly older folks).


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 10:11 AM
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69

Communist operatives ,of course.


Posted by: als | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 10:11 AM
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69 to 37.


Posted by: asl | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 10:12 AM
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Is there some way I could get involved as a war profiteer with no particular loyalty to either side?

I thought about including you, but I didnt trust you. I figured that we could just buy you off if we needed you down the road.


Posted by: Will | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 10:12 AM
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I call Cala, JRoth, Di, and DS.

I call LB, ST, Matt F, and m leblanc.

And, really, everyone see the picture that Biohazard posted in that thread.


Posted by: NickS | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 10:12 AM
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62: Right on.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 10:12 AM
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74

Who would win depends on who got the Decemberists on their side.


Posted by: shpx.ohfu | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 10:12 AM
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75

The Catholic coalition, of course, is still nomiinally an independent conference, so on will's strategy, you'll need to court them.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 10:13 AM
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76

Those of you assuming the nuclear advantage goes to the air force should take into account the fifty percent or so of the US nuclear warhead arsenal located on submarines, which dock in Washington and Maine, mostly.

You'd probably end up with mutual deterrence, unless someone goes in for assuring the endtimes.


Posted by: Eric | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 10:14 AM
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Will [California and Texas], under any parameters end up on the same team?

Only if the right to breast implants and multi-carat diamond solitaires is somehow at issue.


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 10:14 AM
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78

then we burn Atlanta just out of nostalgia as a gesture of conciliation.


Posted by: KR | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 10:16 AM
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Hey Eric, I just learned today that you wrote a book about the New Deal. I'm gonna have to read that sucker.

I assume this is thanks to Kieran mocking me. Thanks Kieran! And thanks, KR. Don't forget to buy all my books, if you possibly can.


Posted by: Eric | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 10:16 AM
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Darn it! NickS is on the wrong team. I just hope that Apo is up to the challenge. We will need to hold off a fierce attack on the music front.

I call Witt also. We will need her connections with all of the newcomers.


Posted by: Will | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 10:19 AM
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OK, so I turned on the radio this morning and it was still tuned to the Pirates/hate radio station. Whatever program was on was doing a humor bit (such as it was) about a baseball game in 2037 between the St. Louis [somethings] and the Ari-Mexico Diamondbacks. The joke was that the players were all human-animal hybrids. It really was going on far too long, so I had to change stations, but what I learned was that hate radio types apparently fear that genetic engineering will result in human-gazelle hybrids.

Also, that they take Aztlan seriously enough to make passing reference to it, but not so seriously that they won't joke about it.

I leave it to the boys in the lab to use this intelligence to our advantage.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 10:19 AM
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76: you'd have to worry about Lieberman engineering some kind of mutiny at New London, though.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 10:20 AM
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BTW, the precipitating incident will either be immigrant-related (say, some red state governor rounding up 1000 Hispanics and summarily executing them) or stemming from another terror attack on NYC, which forces the Red Staters to bomb NY for being such wusses.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 10:21 AM
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INTEROGATOR: "All right son. If you're a real red-stater, tell me, what kind of car did Burt Reynolds drive in Smokey and the Bandit?"

You're doomed if you think that's the question. Any decent American can answer that question. I can answer that question (though I guess I grew up in a reddish state).

fifty percent or so of the US nuclear warhead arsenal located on submarines, which dock in Washington and Maine, mostly.

Yeah, baby. I'm rolling with Subcomandante Rauchway, because he's got that kind of knowledge.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 10:22 AM
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85

Virginia and California have the Seal Teams mostly locked up.


Posted by: Will | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 10:22 AM
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86

The Catholic coalition, of course, is still nomiinally an independent conference, so on will's strategy, you'll need to court them.

Or kidnap the pope. Not that it makes any strategic sense, it just sounds cool. Kidnap the pope!


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 10:22 AM
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We really should pay more attention to which side the Hispanics will take, since they're going to be doing all the work.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 10:22 AM
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87: Mexico's role in the war of the Californias turns out to be decisive, in fact.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 10:24 AM
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89

First thing, I want Napi to reach out to the gun-toters in Arizona, Wyoming, and Montana. If he can get to Idaho, that would be great too.


Posted by: Will | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 10:24 AM
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80: Hmm. For the sake of the team, I am willing to consider adopting read's recommendations and see what I can do to seduce NickS over to our side. I will need Jesus to supply appropriate oenopoetic munitions for the mission.

But first, the lunch hour draws nigh, and I must prepare for my first date of the day...


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 10:24 AM
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We really should pay more attention to which side the Hispanics will take, since they're going to be doing all the work.

Ogged, see 80.


Posted by: Will | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 10:24 AM
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92

Will's civil war team is looking suspiciously like his commune team. Winning the war with delicious, home-cooked meals.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 10:26 AM
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Geez Di! You are supposed to divulge that you are our own little Mata Hari.


Posted by: Will | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 10:26 AM
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89: Don't forget the gswift cell.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 10:26 AM
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I assume this is thanks to Kieran mocking me

No, believe it or not, it came up thanks to collaborative filtering on Amazon. Apparently, readers who liked No Ordinary Time will also like your book.


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 10:26 AM
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63: I think what that poll shows is,

(1) A "who?" factor anywhere on a presidential ticket hurts you--look how bad the McCain/Pawlenty numbers are.

(2) Obama's polling against McCain is notably better in every poll I've seen that doesn't simultaneously do a Hillary-McCain match up, which is good.


Posted by: Katherine | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 10:32 AM
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Winning the war with delicious, home-cooked meals.

Yea, I'll need m/tch and kraab too.

BG seems to know a lot about med's, so we are going to want her too. Can Blume bring us some german ingenuity?


Posted by: Will | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 10:34 AM
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it came up thanks to collaborative filtering on Amazon

Ah: Thanks, SkyNet!


Posted by: Eric | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 10:35 AM
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99

You're doomed if you think that's the question.

Oh, don't worry, I'm prepared. "What was the first brand of snuff to come in a plastic can? Which brand of beer came in a bonus 15-pack at the same price as a 12-pack? [smack] Answer me, damn it! What was the last model year in which the Ford F-150 pickup had round headlights? How many 12-gauge shells come in a box? What color is the inside of a Moon Pie? What's the legal standard for counting 'points' on a buck's antlers?"


Posted by: KR | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 10:35 AM
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100

Will is putting together the nicest bunch of twenty people who can be taken out with one grenade.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 10:37 AM
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101

97: Wait a minute. Will's side has all the chicks!

I call shirts!


Posted by: KR | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 10:37 AM
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102

99: Now you're talking. I would totally be tortured and killed.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 10:38 AM
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103

I would totally be tortured and killed.

Just say, "I don't know! I went to Duke!"


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 10:40 AM
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104

Study up on some weird Southern sect that didn't do any of those things.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 10:41 AM
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105

104 pwned by 103.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 10:42 AM
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106

What kind of drug-addled mind wrote this?

You know, thinking about it, this is actually a lot sillier than the war between the Californias. We might as well argue about who would win if the coastal cities were able to mount thrusters to their undersides and fly around terrorizing rural areas.

Arguing about that would be objectively awesome.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 10:42 AM
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107

mount thrusters to their undersides

At the Mineshaft!


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 10:43 AM
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108

Now you're talking. I would totally be tortured and killed.

I would be killed and I live in Jesusland.


Posted by: CJB | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 10:44 AM
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109

Will is putting together the nicest bunch of twenty people who can be taken out with one grenade.

You havent met Di and Cala, have you?


Posted by: Will | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 10:44 AM
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106: well, right. I wasn't kidding. For one thing it would allow us to much more neatly divide the demographics we're talking about. For another thing, flying cities terrorizing the population!

I wish I could remember the name of the SF books I cribbed that from, though. Where's LB when you need her?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 10:45 AM
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"I don't know! I went to Duke!"

You'd just get put on a bus back to New Jersey.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 10:47 AM
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110: James Blish, wasn't it? Cities In Flight?


Posted by: Populuxe | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 10:48 AM
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Just say, "I don't know! I went to Duke!"

What, so they could try to kill me twice? (OTOH, that does suggest an area where blue states and red states could come together.)


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 10:49 AM
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112: yup! The thread thanks you.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 10:50 AM
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I assume this is thanks to Kieran mocking me.

"Mocking" is too strong, surely.

Culture wars are not civil wars, and the lack of geographically contiguous sides would make it difficult to mobilize for war. And the assassination of Pres. O would of course be the cause of a giant unifying moment in the conscience collective that would redound to the benefit of the succeeding President, a la Kennedy.


Posted by: Kieran | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 10:52 AM
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Followed shortly by Suburbs In White Flight.


Posted by: Populuxe | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 10:53 AM
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Just say, "I don't know! I went to Duke!"

"Duke, eh? He's a fifth columnist, Private. You know what to do with him.

"Yes sir! On your feet, filthy communist!"


Posted by: KR | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 10:54 AM
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109: Hey!! I'm extremely nice! And Cala, if it's possible, is even nicer!


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 10:54 AM
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110 to 115. We're way ahead of you, Kieran!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 10:54 AM
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53, 56, 77: There's one scenario: Aztlan against the rest of the country. In that case, the yanquis have to think long and hard about whether getting California back is worth the trouble of having Texas again.


Posted by: Cyrus | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 10:54 AM
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We're way ahead of you, Kieran!

So I see. But this is nothing new.


Posted by: Kieran | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 10:56 AM
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"Mocking" is too strong, surely.

Chaffing, ribbing, taking the mick, joshing, razzing?


Posted by: Eric | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 10:56 AM
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Cultural civil wars are especially brutal, with lots of relocations of populations. EG the Catholic - Protestant wars.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 10:57 AM
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Taking the piss? Making a gibe? Punching?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 10:58 AM
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118:

Well played.

I'm just an old country lawyer. Maybe I don't know as much as them big city lawyers.

Go get 'em, tar baby!


Posted by: Will | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 10:59 AM
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I call Cala, JRoth, Di, and DS.

I call LB, ST, Matt F, and m leblanc.

I call the whole Boston crew. (You too, KR.) Including arthegall.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 10:59 AM
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Perhaps, Denying the shared humanity of.


Posted by: Kieran | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 10:59 AM
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Cultural civil wars are especially brutal, with lots of relocations of populations. EG the Catholic - Protestant wars.

OTOH, once the blue staters figure out how to booby trap fast food drive-through windows, the skyrocketing demand for the up-armored Ford Expedition could bring Detroit back from the edge of ruin.


Posted by: KR | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 11:01 AM
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I'd totally come and photograph the conflict. Don McCullin style.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 11:03 AM
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At least we now know what it would take to get ttaM to come to America.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 11:04 AM
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Oh wait, I just realized that NickS attempted to call Sifu. Sorry, I've got, uh, dibs.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 11:04 AM
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All this calling me like you all don't think I'll be team captain.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 11:05 AM
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once the blue staters figure out how to booby trap fast food drive-through windows

I thought that's what the 1000 calorie burgers were for.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 11:05 AM
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I was trying to recruit you, Blume.

And I already called BG. KR is going to the highest bidder.


Posted by: Will | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 11:05 AM
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I fight for Blume!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 11:06 AM
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I'd totally come and photograph the conflict.

And Wisse could lead the "Al Gore Brigade", an idealistic band of sympathetic young Europeans who would, tragically, all be massacred by Red State irregulars after a heroic rear-guard action at the battle of Short Hills, NJ.


Posted by: KR | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 11:06 AM
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All this calling me like you all don't think I'll be team captain.

Star player, Cala. Star player.


Posted by: Will | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 11:07 AM
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133: the 1000 calorie burgers, in their decadent Hardees enclaves, may well amount to a fifth column.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 11:07 AM
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re: 136

Yeah, but his death would be captured in pristine black and white, just as he crested the rise.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 11:07 AM
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I could take you all, single-handed. Except for Robust and his manly pants, of course.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 11:08 AM
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Yea, photographer like Sean Flynn maybe.


Posted by: Will | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 11:08 AM
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I was trying to recruit you, Blume.

We can work together! mrh can be the courier between our camps.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 11:09 AM
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You people just aren't clear on how this whole "war" thing works, are you?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 11:10 AM
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I could take you all, single-handed. Except for Robust and his manly pants, of course.I could take you all, single-handed. Except for Robust and his manly pants, of course.

So manly, it takes two hands...


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 11:10 AM
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Top ten fattest states, in descending order: Mississippi, West Virginia, Alabama, Louisiana, South Carolina/Tennessee (tie), Kentucky, Arkansas, Oklahoma/Indiana (tie).


Posted by: Eric | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 11:10 AM
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re: 142

McCullin, dude.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 11:10 AM
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Quoting it twice makes it sound much more crazed. I live it.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 11:11 AM
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Quoting it twice makes it sound much more crazed. I like it.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 11:11 AM
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Denying the shared humanity of

Aw, it's like we're dating.


Posted by: Eric | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 11:12 AM
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You people just aren't clear on how this whole "war" thing works, are you?

Did you read 15? We were planning on playing it out on the wii . . . .

Fine, Blume and Cala can be team captains.


Posted by: NickS | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 11:12 AM
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Dude, Cala's husband has all the dynamite. She can be captain or admiral or whatever the fuck she wants to be called.

I will volunteer to work on the security detail for the Admiral's sisters.

War is hell.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 11:12 AM
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Kieran, I don't have R on this machine. Want to do a regression of percentage obese on percentage for Clinton in the primary?


Posted by: Eric | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 11:13 AM
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Clearly, JRoth is much smarter than me.


Posted by: Will | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 11:15 AM
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You might need some additional controls, Eric.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 11:15 AM
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143: Discover Iron Working, create Praetorians, run over the map, and the first platoon men get in there and fight, fight, fight, fight, fight! What do you say, men?


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 11:16 AM
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You clearly don't understand how social science is done, Sifu.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 11:17 AM
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I knew we could count on Cala.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 11:18 AM
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You might need some additional controls, Eric.

I did think of that, ST, but I wanted to see what the rough correlation looked like first.


Posted by: Eric | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 11:21 AM
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I'm with the Steeltown crew. I hope we can all band together.


Posted by: Sybil Vane | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 12:05 PM
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mrh can be the courier between our camps.

Uh-uh. I know what happens to messengers.


Posted by: mrh | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 12:06 PM
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I wanted to see what the rough correlation looked like first.

I had a hunch that the two-variable combination of union density and per capita smokeless tobacco usage would predict HRC's primary vote share pretty accurately, but it turns out there are a couple of seriously aberrant data points. Frinstance, who knew that Alaska has the 4th highest union density in the US? Or that Wyoming has the second highest percentage of smokeless tobacco users?

This little foray into regression analysis taught me a lesson that all you would-be Brookesian armchair sociologists out there should understand: stick to deftly crafted assertions that align with your prejudices! Data is a dangerous thing!


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 12:09 PM
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The first and last time I took my Maine'r ex back to my hometown in WV for the big annual festival, we saw a guy wearing a confederate flag as a cape. (more powerful than an underground locomotive!)

Another fave: a t-shirt with a skeleton rising from the grave in confederate uniform, waving the stars and bars. Above the iron-maiden zombie rebel, the shirt explained "the South will rise again, and this time it will win, because West Virginia will be fighting with it!" A very astute statement, as the Art of War itself states that no mere mortal can resist the terror of the undead armed with coal.


Posted by: matty | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 12:12 PM
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162: Do you have a sister whose name begins with an A and a brother whose name begins with a T, by any chance?


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 12:15 PM
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Uh-uh. I know what happens to messengers.

They are sacred! They carry the staff and wreaths of The Gods! Their bodies are inviolate!

Unless they bear bad news, obvs.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 12:19 PM
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161: outliers! exceptions for other reasons! Throw them out of the sample! If you can't stomach that, weight your observations by state population and their influence will practically vanish!

As you can see, I'm a pro.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 12:22 PM
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Frinstance, who knew that Alaska has the 4th highest union density in the US?

Weird stuff happens statistically when you have a very low population.

Or that Wyoming has the second highest percentage of smokeless tobacco users?

Doesn't surprise me. Cowboys love their Skoal.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 12:22 PM
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152, 154: you can't win an American election with skinny coastal elites alone. You need an obese contingent. Better they should be minorities, so the skinny coastal elites will restrain their classist contempt.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 12:25 PM
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BTW, Sadly, No! has written the scenario for war:

I'm thinking of writing a comic strip about a dystopian future where Supreme Commander Hussein Obama X has outlawed Cheetos, has given the entire Southwestern region of the U.S. back to Mexico and has thrown all ungrateful white people into Reparations Camps.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 12:25 PM
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As you can see, I'm a pro.

Of course. If you command that level of skill, using data is fine. It's that middle ground you want to avoid.


Posted by: KR | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 12:28 PM
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Damn, I think I scared Matty off with 163. It's OK, Matty, come back! I'm not a stalker! (Though I did used to have a minor crush on you, if you are who I think you are...)


Posted by: KR | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 12:33 PM
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Sweet. With the addition of Sybil, we've got a bunch of ex-smokers. Ha. Ogged thought we were not going to have a bunch of mean people on our side.


Posted by: Will | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 12:36 PM
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My preferred scenario: Retired boomers vs. everyone younger. Precipitated by a proposed change to benefits under Social Security or Medicare, the baby boomers re-seize control of the federal government, enacting a harsh regime of stiff payroll taxes on Americans young enough to work. States crushed by this heavy burden attempt to secede, since legislative reform is blocked the Senate. Para-military groups of recent college graduates attempt to terrorize older voters.


Posted by: ed bowlinger | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 12:38 PM
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172: No problem. Us youths will have the robots. And you know that when they grab onto old people, they can't get away. Because they're made of metal, and robots are strong.


Posted by: TJ | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 12:42 PM
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"The Case for Political Rudeness": two pieces to warm Emerson's heart.


Posted by: Populuxe | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 12:43 PM
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173: And after us youths win, the robots will overthrow us and become our overlords.


Posted by: disaggregated | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 12:47 PM
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173, 175- Dudes. We'll have our robots, too.


Posted by: asl | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 12:56 PM
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175: Don't you mean "protectors"?


Posted by: Tom Scudder | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 12:58 PM
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177: Suckup.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 1:05 PM
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(pause)

Actual headline on Yahoo right now:
Clinton, Obama camps deny discussions to end race

Actual quarter-second of thought in my mind:
Nobody has the power to end race!

But it would be pretty cool, huh? HRC and BHO hold join press conference to announce The End of Race in America.

I'm sure that thread that I stopped paying attention to would have something to say about the primary meaning of "race" versus alternative meanings, and how one's brain selects among them.

(resume)



Posted by: | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 1:18 PM
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179 was me. And of course I meant joint.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 1:19 PM
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172: My preferred scenario: Retired boomers vs. everyone younger.

I had been playing this scenario out myself. Mine was more of a guerilla warfare fight with nothing-to-lose older boomers wreaking havoc with suicide Expeditions, Accords, golf carts and wheelchairs. No real goal other than widespread misery* and finishing the self-indulgent destruction of all that is decent and good that we had already started back in the day. You want your precious little Internet? Well then enjoy it Snowcrash-style my little droogies.

I am an antichrist
I am an anarchist
Dont know what you want but
I know how to stop it
I wanna destroy the passer by cos after
we die anarchy!
No dogs body

*And we've already planted the ultimate bomb by mindfucking our kids with our "I'm not really a grownup" brand of undisciplined hooey that we palmed off as child-rearing.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 1:20 PM
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With my crabby reputation I know to tippy-toe around this mine field.

I will only point out that perhaps unexpectedly many of the Minnesota liberals are also avid hunters. We couldn't stand up against the military of course but anyone else . . .


Posted by: Tripp | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 1:21 PM
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180: She said "joint", heh heh .... heh heh


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 1:21 PM
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181

Oh yeah. I'm not retired (yet) but I know all we'd need to do is call out to the youth "Hey, look, girls! (or guys!)" and we could walk right in while they are distracted.


Posted by: Tripp | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 1:25 PM
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My preferred scenario: Retired boomers vs. everyone younger.

*and* everyone older. The cohort that immediately preceeded the boomers hates them. They'll secretly get together one night under the guise of a Buddy Holly revival dance, and then conspire to frag the boomers when they least expect it.


Posted by: KR | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 1:30 PM
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Minnesota liberals are fully prepared to destroy an army of pheasants or ducks.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 1:37 PM
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Minnesota liberals are fully prepared to destroy an army of pheasants or ducks.

And we have, which is why we have to come to your town to continue the hunting.

But the shotguns are for close in. The deer rifles are for sniping.


Posted by: Tripp | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 1:42 PM
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frag the boomers

. . . would make a pretty good name for a Rock band.

I could get in BIG trouble for saying this but all the youth would really have to do is say what my daughter has said to me - "Watch it Pops! I'm gonna be picking out your nursing home someday."

On the other hand I reminded her that Mom doesn't know about that time she came home after curfew . . . not yet!

I know some things . . . that's all I'm saying.


Posted by: Tripp | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 1:47 PM
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Minnesota liberals are fully prepared to destroy an army of pheasants or ducks

Nonsense. They've been appeasing the ducks for years with their "wetlands conservation" nonsense, and look where that's gotten us.


Posted by: KR | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 1:49 PM
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But the shotguns are for close in. The deer rifles are for sniping.

Wait, I thought you used a six-shooter to hunt ducks!


Posted by: KR | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 1:50 PM
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Or turkeys. Turkeys are new here since I left.

Pelicans, cormorants, grebes, and herons are not game birds, alas.

Geese are a major pest -- Canadian geese, I might add. My understanding is that someone tips them off right at the beginning of hunting season, because before that time you can walk up to within about 20 feet of them, and your darn lucky if they don't attack you.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 1:53 PM
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Nor are coots a game bird.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 1:53 PM
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No, coots are just another name for lovable old commenters.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 1:58 PM
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KR,

The sixguns are for the Snipes. You need to lure them in close because they are kinda small and a shotgun would leave nothing to eat.

John Emerson,

I hear you about the geese. Years ago our town was the first place they spotted (Northern Canadian?) geese after they thought they went extinct. They like the relatively warm water from our power plant.

As an aside Geese absolutely LOVE grasshoppers, even more than the cracked corn they sell to feed them. Also, as you say, they are MEAN but I don't back down from them.

But there can be too much of a good thing, and geese bring goose guano, so we're trying to discourage them a little bit. Not completely.

And the geese in MN not only know when hunting season starts, they know the exact boundaries between the no-hunting-city-limits zone and the in-the-country-hunting zone. In the off-season they fly real low out to the fields but in the hunting season the suckers hug the ground until they hit the boundary and then UP they go!


Posted by: Tripp | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 2:00 PM
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193:

No, coots are just another name for lovable old commenters.

I take offense Sonny!

Who are you calling "lovable?"


Posted by: Tripp | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 2:02 PM
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Aw, this coulda been an interesting thread. Let's see: the dividing issue is fear of Muslims vs. an attempt at understanding.

How does it divide up? It's gotta be a rural/urban (whatever) thing. As to who wins, we're far too economically integrated now to say -- per various comments upthread, the cosmopolitans need the farmers, the farmers need the shipping, and so on. We're basically all helpless on our own.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 2:04 PM
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In the interest of "full disclosure" I will admit that I have gone duck hunting a couple times. As a bleeding-heart tree-hugging liberal (sorry to swear) I felt kinda bad about it but as it turns out, hmmmm, how shall I put it, it was no massacre.

My buddy was nice enough to say that when we both shot at the same bird it was me who hit it but I'm pretty sure that was a lie. He came home with three and I came home with the one charity bird, which all told cost about $150 a pound and that was with borrowing the gun. And getting up at 4 friggin' 30 AM.

I pretty much stick to fishing now.


Posted by: Tripp | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 2:11 PM
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They're called Canada geese.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 2:14 PM
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the dividing issue is fear of Muslims vs. an attempt at understanding

I thought the issue was that if Obama becomes president, here's what the crowd in Ogged's picture looks like in four years.


Posted by: Grumps | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 2:22 PM
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Yes, Canadian geese. From Canada. A protected alien species that destroys our crops, terrifies our children, squacks unbearably, and shits on everything.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 2:32 PM
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the cosmopolitans need the farmers, the farmers need the shipping, and so on. We're basically all helpless on our own.


Oh, the farmer and the hipster should be friends,
Oh, the farmer and the hipster should be friends.
One man likes to plant a seed,
The other likes to smoke good weed,
But that's no reason why they cain't be friends.

'Murcan folks should stick together,
'Murcan folks should all be mates.
Hipsters upload homemade porn,
T'wich the farmer masturbates.

All:
'Murcan folks should stick together,
'Murcan folks should all be mates.
Hipsters upload homemade porn,
T'wich the farmer masturbates.

*Andrew*
I'd like to say a word fer the farmer

Eller:
Well, say it!

*Andrew:*
His fields are purty on a country hike..

Man:
That's right!

Will:
He grows our endives and the like...

Curly:
He's blocked the trail for my mountain bike!.

*Farmer:*
Why don't you Skechers-wearers go back to New York where you belong?

*Hipster*
We got just as much right here!

*Andrew*
*Gentlemen,* Shut up!
The farmer is a good and worthy citizen

Hipster
Yea he's worthy alright

Andrew*
No matter how the hipster looks or acts
Ag subsidies come from his tax

Curly:
He's got his fucking eyebrows waxed!

Andrew:
Oh, the farmer and the hipster should be friends,
Oh, the farmer and the hipster should be friends.
The hipster might wear funny clothes,
But he writes the farmer's TV shows,
That's no reason why they cain't be friends

All:
'Murcan folks should stick together,
Though some might get annoyed
Hipsters get to screw the farmer's daughters,
While farmers' sons get deployed

Eller:
I'd to say a word for the hipster--

*Farmer*
You would!

Eller:
He might have gone to college
His rent is two weeks overdue
There's nothing good in his Netflix queue

Annie:
It's prob'ly that foreign shit with subtitles!

Eller:
The farmer should take pity on the hipster
If his Prius breaks down by the road
Don't treat him like a city pest
One day he'll grade your childrens' tests

Andrew
She's got a tatoo on her breasts!

Girls:
Oh, the farmer and the hipster should be friends.
Oh, the farmer and the hipster should be friends.
One man votes for Right to Life
The other D&C'd his wife
But that's no reason why they cain't be friends.


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 2:42 PM
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Cala,

Sorry. We dudes must stick together on this. As you say the species is the "Great Canada Goose" but John and I were discussing the Canadian Great Canada Goose who has legal residency in Canada.

You can tell the Canadian Great Canada Goose (see how hard that is to type?) by the call which is something like (hard to do over the internet but here I go):

HHYOOONK!! eh?


Posted by: Tripp | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 2:43 PM
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who has legal residency in Canada.

Pardon me. My mistake.

whom has legal residency in Canada.


Posted by: Tripp | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 2:48 PM
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President-elect Obama is assassinated on January 8, 2009.

Haven't read the thread, but apparently Obama getting shot is on Hillary's mind as well.

Clinton cites Kennedy assassination in primaries

Sen. Hillary Clinton referred Friday to the assassination of Robert Kennedy in 1968 Democratic campaign as a reason she should continue to campaign despite increasingly long odds.

Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 2:49 PM
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Stay classy, Hillary.

God, just get out of the race before my growing hatred becomes irreversible.


Posted by: KR | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 2:51 PM
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Enough fun for one day. Bedtime in Scandinavia. Though it's still mighty bright outside.


Posted by: disaggregated | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 2:52 PM
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What KR said. This is more or less the first time in my life that I've been the voice of reason, which I can do fairly easily because I'm not all that sure about Obama either, but she looks worse by the day.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 2:53 PM
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Heh, I just put up a post on her remark while gswift was posting it here.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 2:54 PM
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205:

God, just get out of the race before my growing hatred becomes irreversible.

Unfortunately God is not in this race. He leaves these things up to us. Curse this free will!

Oh, wait, you meant . . .


Posted by: Tripp | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 2:55 PM
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Unfortunately God is not in this race

Mr. Rove, stop! Cancel the scurrilous viral e-mail campaign detailing God's Middle Eastern heritage, his record of controversial pronouncements, and his history of anti-Semitic acts.


Posted by: KR | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 3:00 PM
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To make my meaning clear, I'd like to amend the penultimate line in my Oklahoma! pastiche in 201 to read: "One D&C'd the farmer's wife".


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 3:09 PM
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201: Fuckin' A, man! Brilliant!

TRIPP ROCKS.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 3:09 PM
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Oh, 201 was you KR? Sorry, careless. Well, you rock too, but I already knew that.

HAPPY MEMORIAL DAY, EVERYBODY -- TIME TO PLAY IN THE SUN.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 3:10 PM
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I wish I could remember the name of the SF books I cribbed that from, though.

James Blish. Spindizzies. Cities in Flight. Etc.

max
['Not much of a thread. Guess I'll have to fix that.']


Posted by: max | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 3:11 PM
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Well, I agree we don't need to be subsidizing no illegal alien geese.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 3:12 PM
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So I wonder: if we re-fought the Civil War today, which states would be on what side, and who would win? I defer to your expertise, O Unfoggetariat.

You would post this on a day that my RSS reader was down. Anyways, I have been on the table for about 20 years that the Second American Civil War kicks off in 2013. (And I will include a post that I wrote in 1996.) Damn, I outlined five novels about it.

Anyways: the Democrat candidate loses in 2013 to a real evil SOB of bitch in a screwy, plurality election. Said candidate has emerged as the R nominee due to the previous years of economic hardship and military defeat. Said candidate promises a Christian revival of some sort for the US, and promises to smash the elites, and do something about the minorities (Mexicans?). And he wins. (On account, mind, that the elites have done a bang up job of screwing up over the previous two decades since the big victory.)

Anyways, said candidate can secure a victory via the House and does... and California secedes. Mexicans don't like this guy and nobody else much does either. Shortly Nevada follows as does Utah, since the Mormons know they're screwed. Eventually, Oregon, Washington, Idaho, Montana, Arizona and New Mexico follow. (And Hawaii and Alaska join to since they're cut off from the East.) The Plains states try to stay neutral, and the DC government moves to secure the East.

The Navy goes over (particularly given Hawaii), and the Air Force follows. Some of the Army comes along, but the East has the manpower. The asshole in DC attempts to crack down from the word go, so the middle states start emptying out - some to the west and some to the east.

A year or two of inconclusive sparring, and in particular, holding the Rocky Mountain Passes allows the FSA to glue itself together. And they have the air power and the sea power, and the EU and the Pacific Rim will not sell weapons to the asshole in DC. Eventually both sides get their shit together and the real fighting begins in 2015. The FSA line of solid control runs in front of the Rockies. The CSA (Christian States of America) runs from Chicago down to Houston. Everything in between is a anarchic guerilla war zone.

Food, to answer your question, is tight because the bread basket is a mess, but there are plenty of farms in both the east and the west, so the (former) US simply stops exporting. Manufacturing is strongest in the FSA and they have the most external support. The CSA has lots and lots of manpower, so they just go sit on the people in the cities of the East, but a lot of them will simply go along with the whole oppressive dictatorship. People are like that.

Eventually some huge but inconclusive seesaw battles are fought in the middle of the country. Eventually the FSA gains the upper hand due to air superiority and manages to secure the line of the Mississippi in 2017. (During that offensive, they launch an airborne operation to take Pittsburg in the hopes of sparking a general uprising but it doesn't work. The CSA just throws bodies at them until Pittsburg is razed to the ground. It does buy space for the FSA to take St. Louis and Chicago on the ground.)

The FSA follows on from the Mississippi by pushing in, mainly in the Great Lakes states over 2018 and early 2019. The CSA decides to solidify their flank (the Canadians are not friendly to the CSA, after all) by grabbing Ontario and Quebec. After awhile of losing ground our friend, the asshole in DC, finally realizes he's losing, so he gambles; he tries to bluff the FSA into surrendering by making a nuclear example of Sacramento (the capital), San Franciso ('Sodom by the bay'), Salt Lake City (Temple of Satan), and Denver (just because). The Salt Lake missle get intercepted.

Faced with the prospect of sitting around waiting to get nuked (and in turn eventually counter-nuking the CSA) or surrendering to sure death, the FSA does the only thing they can, moves to the endgame and smears every major city (and some minor ones) along the line Boston-Atlanta, with SLBMs launched from USN subs.

The CSA collapses and the game is over. The EU 'intervenes' to rescue the (former) Eastern US, and the FSA is tight with Japan and China and Russia. The people in the eastern Middle (Illinois, Indiana eastern kentucky, etc.) are trapped between the rock of the radioactive East Coast and the hard place of the anarchic praries, so they're pretty much screwed.

Original message here!

From: Fall Gelb
Subject: Re: Gates@64
Date: 1996/11/29
fedor...@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca wrote:
He may never make 64 if he breaks his neck in the tranpoline room of his new house. On the other hand, his house may still not be finished by then.
In 2020, President Bill (the II) will approve the Comprehensive Recovery Bill, provisions of which include:
Disallowance of all medical care for those experiencing radiation sickness, and those over 65 (with exceptions).
Allowing usage of prison labor to clean up harzardous areas around the former cities of San Franciso, Denver and Sacramento.
Comprehensive pardon of all crimes prepetrated by military officers in the recent civil war.
Allowing grant of naval bases in Alaska and on the Pacific coast to East Asian forces in exchange for cash.
Formally declaring the occupation of the eastern part of the former US by EC forces to be 'illegal'.
The bill will not address the issue of survivors (and dependents) of the Midwestern death camps.
max

On December 31st, 1999, while everyone was having fun, I was working at Midnight (Y2K doncha know), so I muttered to myself while listening to the radio, about how 6 of 7 (or maybe 7 of 8) Americans alive in 2000 would be dead.

I personally would prefer to be wrong, but I've kept expecting (hoping) things would change directions and the river keeps heading the wrong damn way anyways. So I'm guessing I'm not wrong, yet.

max
['Ok, now I am tired and going to bed.']


Posted by: max | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 4:15 PM
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Now that's what I'm talking about!


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 4:22 PM
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Shit, that's me and my sister. Oh well. We had a good run.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 5:28 PM
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Yeah, most of my family is dead there. Save for my nutso racist aunt in Salt Lake.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 5:36 PM
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Save for my nutso racist aunt in Salt Lake.

Oh, that's OK, JM. She bought it making a "run for the border" over to the CSA.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 6:08 PM
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103, 105, 111, 113, 117: Screw all you guys.

I can't believe that no one has the foresight to see the value in people that are already qualified to exploit rebuild and govern the broken Southland after its surrender.


Posted by: Gabriel | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 6:16 PM
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The EU 'intervenes' to rescue the (former) Eastern US, and the FSA is tight with Japan and China and Russia.

We have subtler means of making you comply with EU policies. Let me just point out that the Danish Crown Prince is trained as a member of the elite Marine Corps. The next state visit will be a thing to watch.

According to my sources the Commission even has detailed plans to introduce Universal Health Care in the US as its first move after the take-over.


Posted by: Jacob Christensen | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 6:24 PM
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I, for one, welcome our new Danish overlords.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 6:41 PM
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We might as well argue about who would win if the coastal cities were able to mount thrusters to their undersides and fly around terrorizing rural areas.

Meanwhile, the Twenty-Second Street spindizzy is out of alignment again, and my ears are killing me!


Posted by: Matt McIrvin | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 10:29 PM
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I wrote this either on general election night in 2004 or the day after:

some quick thoughts:

If the electoral trends as of this moment hold to form, all of the Republican or Democratic states in the lower 48 will be gathered into their own, contiguous blocs: one large one for the reds, and two - a Midwest-Northeast connection across the lakes, and a Pacific coast borderland - for those with the blues.

Now, up until recently I've been quite suspicious of much of the talk about our current divided electorate providing the basis for some deeper, Civil War-like upheaval. Sure we could get something similar to the discord of the 1960s, I thought, or perhaps something like the labor/agriculture agitation of the late 19th century (though centered on a different set of ideas, of course), but not much beyond that. Nothing that could really threaten the continued cohesion of the country, bitter though the divisions may be.

But now I wonder: how much do regions/sections still matter?

Perhaps the most important factor that sets the antebellum and Civil War period apart from other periods of sustained conflict in American history isn't so much the fact that the country was bitterly divided, but that so many kinds of divisions - economic, political, ideological, social - happened to coincide almost exactly with spatial, regional divisions. There was a deep South connected to its expanding pro-slave Southwest. There was a far North and its expanding free labor Northwest. And then there were the middle states, some slave and some free, also expanding westward but not quite sure where their final allegiances would lie - until Kansas-Nebraska exploded, the Whigs disappeared, and a single new party captured a majority of only one section, but with it took control of the nation. The emerging Confederacy, by contrast, having chosen to elevate section over party, decided that its interests could no longer be considered safe within the existing structure of the nation.

Are we now subtly, but not quite imperceptibly, laying the basis for new forms of sectional conflict? Will Southern Democrats and West Coast or Northeast Republicans eventually become obsolete through electoral defeats or changes of party affiliation? And if so, what will that mean for the continued functioning of our federal system? (It would be interesting to know how the electoral map matches up with the federal judicial circuits.)

What if the area between the coasts and south of the lakes that likes to refer to itself as the true America decided to give up on reforming all of those leftist coasters and northeast liberals and decided to just screw them over? (wait, isn't this current policy?)

What if the Midwest-Northeast decided: hey we have our own cities, our own centers of innovation - we can do all right on our own. Besides, we've been getting along so well with Canada maybe it's time we worked more closely together?

What if the Pacific Coast thought its future lay in closer ties with the Pacific Rim, especially now that transportation and communication technologies have made it easier for businesses to operate and migrants to keep in touch with their home countries?

For all the overblown rhetoric of potential fascism or police states, etc. coming from critics of the Bush administration, I wonder if other, admittedly still far-fetched, outcomes are possible, in which the federal system begins to break down as opposition develops along regional lines. I wonder if our house is beginning to divide against itself, leading us once again to ask how long it can endure, and if it can do so without curtailing the liberty in which it was conceived.

One thing I can say: I would be far more confident if we had a leader who appealed openly to the better angels of our nature, rather than almost solely to his base.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 05-23-08 11:25 PM
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224: 23d Street,wasn't it? You wouldn't put a spindizzy on a street without a subway stop, would you?

Man, I loved those books. They're also important scholarship in Rauchway's chosen field of hobology.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05-24-08 4:58 AM
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