Re: A Concept Surely Better Than The Execution

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I think I missed that line in McCain's speech.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 06- 3-08 8:42 PM
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When I am on my death bed, and only able to produce word salad when I try to talk, and when the word salad unexpectedly includes sentences like "just surviving is exhausting," read Dr Suess's Sleep Book to me.

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Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 06- 3-08 8:49 PM
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Yes, I am Becks-style, and visiting my family.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 06- 3-08 8:51 PM
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2: I thought you said "only about to pronounce the word salad", and I thought "well, gee, that'd be pretty weird."


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 06- 3-08 9:21 PM
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Only able to pronounce.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 06- 3-08 9:21 PM
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5: That would be weird, but the real world is weirder.

Imagine a spam-bot like Jessica, in 4 above, which has been trained to mimic normal speech patterns using only your grandmother's way of talking as a template.

When she couldn't remember my name, she called me "daddy-pops".


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 06- 3-08 9:25 PM
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i first read Zeuss, now see Suess
have no idea who he is
the actress looks nice, a bit resembling Levinski, if she were slim and older, could be his like true type if it's true
did not know who she is too


Posted by: read | Link to this comment | 06- 3-08 9:30 PM
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is she


Posted by: read | Link to this comment | 06- 3-08 9:31 PM
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Theodor Seuss Geisel, aka Dr. Seuss. America's most popular writer/illustrator of nonsense rhyming books for children. Ancestor of America's most litigious copyright-protecting heirs.


Posted by: Fatman | Link to this comment | 06- 3-08 9:31 PM
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i thought his name is spellt Dr. Zeuss, so Seuss is correct?
yah, should spellcheck first before commenting, seriously, Unfogged is like too much work
for me


Posted by: read | Link to this comment | 06- 3-08 9:35 PM
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Seuss is correct. But rob said Suess.


Posted by: Fatman | Link to this comment | 06- 3-08 9:38 PM
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11: either Dr. Seuss or Dr. Zaius, depending on whether you're talking about the artist or the monkey.

Unfogged is supposed to be work, read. Commenting is hard, maybe the hardest thing any of us will ever have to do.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 06- 3-08 9:39 PM
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aPE, NOT MONKEY


Posted by: OPINIONATED LAWGIVER | Link to this comment | 06- 3-08 9:41 PM
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good night


Posted by: read | Link to this comment | 06- 3-08 9:45 PM
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gOOD NIGHT


Posted by: OPINIONATED LAWGIVER | Link to this comment | 06- 3-08 9:47 PM
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Good night read. Sleep tight.

THE NEWS just came in from the county of Keck
That a very small bug, by the name of Van Vlek
Is Yawning so wide you can look down his neck.
This may not seem very important, I know,
But is it, so I'm bothering telling you so.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 06- 3-08 9:47 PM
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None of you are sufficiently appreciating this post.


Posted by: Becks | Link to this comment | 06- 3-08 11:25 PM
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A heavy summons lies like lead upon me,
And yet I would not sleep. Merciful powers,
Restrain in me the cursed thoughts that nature
Gives way to in repose!


Posted by: Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 06- 3-08 11:30 PM
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I don't get it. Who is Gina Gershon? (Yes, I could Google, but that wouldn't necessarily give me the context needed to understand the joke.)


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 06- 3-08 11:31 PM
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FINE.

"I Wanna Be Your Joey Ramone" is an awesome song by Sleater-Kinney.

Gina Gershon is the hot hot hottie from Bound and Showgirls that Vanity Fair recently claimed had sex with Bill Clinton post-Monica, prompting his outburst.


Posted by: Becks | Link to this comment | 06- 3-08 11:36 PM
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Oh, thanks. I'm sure I can piece it together from there.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 06- 3-08 11:39 PM
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Doesn't this millenials piece on 60 Minutes seem like a load of BS? I mean, how can a kid fresh out of college tell his boss what workplace rules he'll be following? Don't you still have to follow the rules or get canned? Aren't kids still competing for good jobs? This sounds like a made-up trend, not reality.


Posted by: Gaijin Biker | Link to this comment | 06- 4-08 2:43 AM
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Gershon is certainly easy on the eye, but I question why she would be bothered to shag a sick 60 year old, when she could evidently do so much better for herself if casual sex is her thing (probably even fucking Matt Damon). I know power is an aphrodisiac and all, but Bill has no power any more and he's basically just a sad old has been.


Posted by: OneFatEnglishman | Link to this comment | 06- 4-08 2:50 AM
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Has anyone in here seen 'Bound'?

Vintage Gershon, directed by the Wachowski Brothers before 'The Matrix' (and the sex change, I guess). It's a mafia-noir about thievin' lesbians, and it's TREMENDOUS. I've absorbed some Gershonery since then, but no in my mind she'll always be Corky, the tattoo'd, six-packed espionage-bian from the 90s.

And yeah, I have no idea what this thread is supposed to be about.


Posted by: Rottin' in Denmark | Link to this comment | 06- 4-08 3:15 AM
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Bound is of course awesome. I loves me some Jennifer Tilly.


Posted by: Gaijin Biker | Link to this comment | 06- 4-08 3:20 AM
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22: I dunno. I get this more and more in the classroom. "I can't be asked to follow the attendance policy, because I often sleep late." One kid who said that, missed a ton of class, and then never got the assignments straight for the writing and fucked them all up, was offered revisions that he decided not to do, and then went to the department with a formal complaint when he got a B. I simply cannot, cannot imagine anyone at my college pulling that shit. Sure, they would have skipped class and slacked on papers, but they wouldn't have expected an automatic A for it. This kid suggested that I be fired.

And I've heard nightmare stories about this parents-calling business from some of my peers. I've never had to face it, in part because the instant word one about parents comes out of their mouths, I say I'm not teaching their parents, etc.

Surely there exist hard-working kids of that generation who grew up with jobs and stuff. But most of my students almost lose their lunch when I mention that I started working a formal job at 13 and had been working informally for a few years before that. How could anyone do that to a child? And they really do refer to themselves as "kids," even the 22-23ish ones.

For a long time I thought these were NYC-area things, which they may be, adding to the media "trend" business.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 06- 4-08 3:50 AM
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I hear ya, AWB. We should be called the Entitlement Generation. I end up having a lot of contact with bratty American undergraduates here (only the rich kids can afford to study-abroad in Denmark), and I'm amazed at the shit these kids pull. Many of them have only had internship-type jobs ('my dad knows some people in DC'), and seem prepared to throw money at a problem as soon as it becomes difficult ('there was a transport strike in Paris, so we took a taxi to Versailles'). The culture of complaint seems to be in full swing, too, and many of them seem on a perpetual crusade to get teachers fired or move the goalposts in some way.


Posted by: Rottin' in Denmark | Link to this comment | 06- 4-08 4:02 AM
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I think there was a lot of non-standard behavior among the Xers (of whom I'm among the last few years), in that a lot of our purpose seemed to be avoiding jumping the right hoops in the right order---I'm still truly horrible about this, not on purpose at all---but the idea was that we wanted to show our worth in less standard ways. Like maybe we don't want to show up to work at 8am but we'll stay an hour or two later at the end of the day, and we don't see why anyone should stop us as long as we're being productive. Or, as I think RMcMP tried to do, do 40 hours in four days to take Friday off, and not understanding why that's not acceptable. There's something else going on now where it's like, "I'd like Friday off, but hey, it's not like anyone's productive on Friday's anyway, so I don't see why I should make up those hours."


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 06- 4-08 4:21 AM
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Yeah, I've had experiences similar to 26 and 27. Not quite as bad, perhaps, but the 'entitlement generation' thing isn't completely made up [even here in the UK].


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 06- 4-08 4:36 AM
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Just for the record, everything irritating about Generation Entitlement is the fault of their Boomer parents.

Also, since there's nothing bratty rich kids like more than pointing out the failings of other bratty rich kids, I feel like we're gonna make up for our generation's failings by parenting our children like Mussolini. I, for one, am going to be way more authoritarian than my Seattle, Self-Esteem-crazy parents were.

We may only have to wait another 30-40 years before we get that Second-Greatest Generation everyone's talking about.


Posted by: Rottin' in Denmark | Link to this comment | 06- 4-08 4:53 AM
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Just for the record, everything irritating about Generation Entitlement is the fault of their Boomer parents

... who presumably had children in their 40's? If you're blaming the problems of people born 1985-90 on people born 1945-50, you've got a generation missing there mate.


Posted by: dsquared | Link to this comment | 06- 4-08 5:21 AM
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... who presumably had children in their 40's

To some extent. I was thinking yesterday while reading the other thread that I'm probably close to the age of Cala's parent's—born in the second Truman administration or first Eisenhower—yet my older child, my daughter, is graduating high school Friday night. I was thirty-eight when she was born, forty when my son was.

Yet they don't seem to have this sense of entitlement complained-of above. Region, class, subculture are always as or more important than age cohort.


Posted by: I don't pay | Link to this comment | 06- 4-08 5:38 AM
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Let's see. Xers are generally swell, creative, unconventional rebels. Boomers are horrible. Millennials are horrible. Is there such a thing as a temporal provincial? I'm starting to think so.


Posted by: mcmc | Link to this comment | 06- 4-08 5:45 AM
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re: 33

You don't have to be a temporal provincial to note that there are cultural changes over time. They are always gross generalizations and, as IDP says, region, class and subculture to fit in.

I'd be very surprised if current 18-20 year olds raised in a very different [and much more results orientated] high-school environment think in the same way about education as someone my age, for example. And someone raised [in England] in the days of the universal 11-plus exam probably thinks differently again. That said, each of those rough age-cohorts probably thinks the others had a worse/easier/more-trivial education.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 06- 4-08 5:53 AM
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"to fit in" ?

I've no idea what happened there. An editing failure... s/b "also play a role"


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 06- 4-08 5:54 AM
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The only tolerable age cohort is kids under seven. Everybody else is fucking lame.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 06- 4-08 5:54 AM
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32 is right. Most of the late boomer/early X parents I know set pretty firm boundaries for their kids and let them know they were entitled to fuck all beyond what they got. And the kids are all, by and large, lovely.

OTOH, I've always been aware of what my wife describes as the "Ashley darling, please don't set fire to Emma, it really isn't very nice" cohort, getting underfoot in supermarkets etc., so the parenting thing isn't entirely imagined.


Posted by: OneFatEnglishman | Link to this comment | 06- 4-08 5:58 AM
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All I'm saying is that I would be a much better person if my parents had regularly beaten me within an inch of my life.


Posted by: Rottin' in Denmark | Link to this comment | 06- 4-08 6:01 AM
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Within an inch of your life? Bloody luxury!


Posted by: OneFatEnglishman | Link to this comment | 06- 4-08 6:06 AM
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That said, each of those rough age-cohorts probably thinks the others had a worse/easier/more-trivial education.

Not only that, but members of each cohort associate with a small number of fellow members, and fail to notice that a large number of their cohort are assholes, as in every other cohort.


Posted by: mcmc | Link to this comment | 06- 4-08 6:19 AM
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All I'm saying is that I would be a much better person if my parents had regularly beaten me within an inch of my life.

criminologicalists say: actually, no!


Posted by: dsquared | Link to this comment | 06- 4-08 6:25 AM
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32: My parents had their first kid at 23 and 26, and were the younger new parents on the block, and I was the oldest kid, usually, of most of the similarly-aged families.

Region, class, subculture are always as or more important than age cohort.

I think this is true. It sounds like I had a fairly similar upbringing to AWB, at least I had the job at age thirteen, and the whole shebang, and it does concern me that most of the kids I teach are never going to have held a minimum wage job, because they're either going to go into adulthood with sense of Those Lazy Poor or Those Sainted Poor. And I have run into the entitlement thing a few times: they're here to get an education, by which they mean a transcript that proves their worth, not necessarily learning anything. No one's pulled any threaten my job crap yet, which is good, because no one is going to want to deal with the fallout.

On the other hand, this hand-wringing over a bunch of upper middle class kids is a bit much. Some do act entitled, but seriously, no one calls them on it, their parents back them up, and they are in demand in the workplace. All this grumbling because the younger generation isn't making themselves miserable in service of IBM or something and instead expects the workplace to provide flexible hours. Oh noes.

"Coddled by their parents to the point to be ill-prepared for a demanding workplace" my ass, in other words. They seem to be prepared just fine, given the actual consequences. It took me a while to learn how to act entitled when I needed to, and I probably would have been better off if I had realized younger that most rules can be bent.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 06- 4-08 6:26 AM
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No one's pulled any threaten my job crap yet, which is good, because no one is going to want to deal with the fallout.

You should look forward to this, because it can be quite a satisfying experience. "Your uncle is a Regent? Let's phone him up! Have you got his number handy?"


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 06- 4-08 6:37 AM
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Broad-based generalizations about generational differences are a pointless folly of the old.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 06- 4-08 6:39 AM
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I have a good quote from Livy somewhere, where he's complaining about how young people these days don't have the respect for their elders that existed in the glory days of the Republic.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 06- 4-08 6:40 AM
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I always confuse Gina Gershon with Krista Allen.


Posted by: Populuxe | Link to this comment | 06- 4-08 6:49 AM
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I couldn't give a shit about the workplace, to be honest. And if people can wring better working conditions, shorter hours and less hassle from their employers: good luck to them.

The problem is, that to a certain minority of people, tutors/teachers are just obstacles to be gamed in the same way as faceless institutions and employers. It's not even that surprising that a minority of people would think that way if they could get away with it.

The reason this is a problem isn't because I care particularly about protecting the integrity of the education process or anything so 'noble': I care more about people being bastards to my face [and the fact that employers and the law frown upon "he was acting like a prick" as an exculpatory claim regarding head-butting people]. As mentioned in past threads, my own socio-economic/cultural/educational background has given me a certain chippiness about people disrespecting me to my face and the tension between the deeply felt desire to fuck someone up and the certain knowledge that this is not possible [or remotely justifiable for that matter] causes a certain tension ...

That said, it's not as if this is a description of an entire generation, anyway. We're talking about a minority of people from a particular class background. Most people -- of whatever class/social/generational background -- are perfectly nice.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 06- 4-08 6:49 AM
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Also, saying "why, back in my day!" when your day was five or ten years ago is farcical. I was in college over a decade ago, and I'm in college now, and lemme tell ya, it's exactly the same.

At least nobody's yet argued it's a sign of the impending singularity.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 06- 4-08 6:51 AM
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it does concern me that most of the kids I teach are never going to have held a minimum wage job, because they're either going to go into adulthood with sense of Those Lazy Poor or Those Sainted Poor

How on earth would you know that?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 06- 4-08 6:53 AM
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||
Jeez, I just made the mistake of reading the comments to Lindgren's post about Obama at the VC, and now I want to punch someone.
|>


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 06- 4-08 6:58 AM
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Also, saying "why, back in my day!" when your day was five or ten years ago is farcical. I was in college over a decade ago, and I'm in college now, and lemme tell ya, it's exactly the same.

Really? I was in college 20 years ago, 15 years ago and am in college now. And I don't think it's the same.

In some ways it's better, I suspect, and other ways its worse and in some ways neither better nor worse. But I don't think it's the same.

Then again, the UK system has changed a lot in the past 20 years: moving from a i) no-fee plus maintenance grant system to a system with ii) no-fees with part-grants and part-loans to a system with iii) no-fees and loans to iv) a system with fees and loans for a start and with greatly expanded participation. That can't help but cause changes in how students perceive university and how university teachers perceive their students. The US hasn't changed as much, I'd assume.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 06- 4-08 6:59 AM
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Broad-based generalizations about generational differences are a pointless folly of the old.

I completely accept that this entire conversation should have taken place on a porch, in a rocking chair, and in-between inquiries about your regularity.


Posted by: Rottin' in Denmark | Link to this comment | 06- 4-08 7:05 AM
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44 is absolutely right. All of the "generation so-and-so is all like such-and-such" stuff is simply embarrassing. And Gina Gershon really can do better.


Posted by: strasmangelo jones | Link to this comment | 06- 4-08 7:10 AM
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Everything was better when you were 12. Yes, you, the person reading this sentence right now!


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 06- 4-08 7:11 AM
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The worst thing about Millennials is that they think in generalizations.


Posted by: Rottin' in Denmark | Link to this comment | 06- 4-08 7:15 AM
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43: Someone tried 'my dad thought my essay deserved an A' and I like to think the look of withering scorn I gave stopped that line in its tracks, but it was probably just that he was a wimp.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 06- 4-08 7:16 AM
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my dad thought my essay deserved an A

Did you say, "Is your dad Kit Fine?"


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 06- 4-08 7:30 AM
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All of the "generation so-and-so is all like such-and-such" stuff

... is another way of saying "Kids these days!" On which Paul Lynde already delivered the definitive take.


Posted by: slolernr | Link to this comment | 06- 4-08 7:32 AM
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57: I think I said 'Well, your dad hasn't been in lecture.'


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 06- 4-08 7:35 AM
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55: NO WE DON'T!!


Posted by: OPINIONATED MILLENIAL | Link to this comment | 06- 4-08 8:03 AM
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The only tolerable age cohort is kids under seven. Everybody else is fucking lame.

I think Hallmark has this on a "Now You're 8!" birthday card.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 06- 4-08 8:53 AM
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50: The one where he attributes a small stock market drop to Obama crossing some threshold number of delegates?


Posted by: washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 06- 4-08 9:38 AM
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Kids under five. At five they start getting cagy.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 06- 4-08 11:47 AM
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As mentioned in past threads, my own socio-economic/cultural/educational background has given me a certain chippiness about people disrespecting me to my face and the tension between the deeply felt desire to fuck someone up and the certain knowledge that this is not possible [or remotely justifiable for that matter] causes a certain tension ...

Yes, indeed.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 06- 4-08 11:52 AM
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I just made the mistake of reading the comments to Lindgren's post about Obama at the VC, and now I want to punch someone

Dammit, you tricked me into that. Now I want to punch you.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 06- 4-08 12:00 PM
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I have a good quote from Livy somewhere, where he's complaining about how young people these days don't have the respect for their elders that existed in the glory days of the Republic.

The trouble is that the every generation who voices this complaint is actually right, and there's no limit to how bad these damn kids can be.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 06- 4-08 12:11 PM
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63: At five they start getting cagy.

Yes, after the get "trained" during the "how many 5-year-olds" they are savvy and battle-tested.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 06- 4-08 12:31 PM
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In contrast, my father has claimed that the best age range for children is something like 6-12. Old enough to hang out with, but not quite to the overly angsty and belligerent stage yet.


Posted by: Otto von Bisquick | Link to this comment | 06- 4-08 1:26 PM
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54:

Maybe it's just me, but I read that comic as a direct attack on Chuck Klosterman (no, glam rock is not the pinnacle of music just because you used to listen to it while getting drunk in high school, Chuck).


Posted by: F | Link to this comment | 06- 4-08 3:49 PM
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