Re: Where the Men are Bishops, and the Women are also Bishops

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The Super Bishop!


Posted by: FL | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 7:58 AM
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Opponents of female bishops argue that Jesus, in choosing men for his 12 disciples, intended that men alone should have the responsibility of ministering to his followers.

It is a bit silly. After all, Jesus also only picked Jewish men as his disciples. (That could be interesting...)

But the CoE can be silly at times. Witness the huge furore over Prince Charles' divorce, when serious men in funny hats were asking "Can a divorced man really head the Church of England?" and ignoring the fact that the only reason the Church exists in the first place is so that a divorced man could head it.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 8:03 AM
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Not just men. Jewish men under five six, no older than 35. Who grew up in Palestine. Under a monarchy.


Posted by: Napi | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 8:03 AM
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Under a monarchy.

Under Italian occupation. You'll wait a day or two for that condition to repeat anywhere.

The CoE had their much heralded split for better or worse a week or so ago, so presumably the civilised faction can now move on. Paging Werdna Nworb.


Posted by: OneFatEnglishman | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 8:08 AM
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Not just men. Jewish men under five six, no older than 35. Who grew up in Palestine. Under a monarchy.

And they all had six toes on the left foot. It's, uh, in the Apocrypha and stuff.

[NOTE TO CHRISTIANS: THIS IS A JOKE. I MADE IT UP. PLEASE DON'T MAKE IT PART OF YOUR RELIGION AND KILL PEOPLE IF THEY BELIEVE OTHERWISE.]


Posted by: Picador | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 8:09 AM
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The super-bishop would be an Archbishop or Cardinal, right? (Wearing a different costume, which I suspect you imagined with be superhero spandex with and art deco logo.)

Here's a question for the lapsed Catholics here: you have Mortal Sins and Venial Sins. What's a Cardinal Sin?


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 8:18 AM
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Are people here assuming that Christian doctrine and practice are generally quite reasonable, except for that silly thing about no lady bishops?

I would not more venture to criticize the Anglicans on this than I would argue with a Scientologist about the prehistoric clams controlling his mind.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 8:22 AM
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What's a Cardinal Sin?

When a Stanford kid doesn't make it into a top 20 grad school.

Ba-Dum-Tish!


Posted by: Po-Mo Polymath | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 8:27 AM
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Are people here assuming that Christian doctrine and practice are generally quite reasonable

Personally, no. And I don't self-identify as a Christian. But, as long as they're thick on the ground, I'm keen to keep apprised of what they're up to.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 8:30 AM
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The super-bishop would be an Archbishop or Cardinal, right?

Anglicans don't have Cardinals, and only three (I think) Archbishops - York, Wales, and Canterbury (if there are others, I'm sure someone more knowledgeable can correct me). The "super-bishops" would still be called bishops, they'd just be a second tier of bishops available only to men, and which right-wingers could go to to bypass the icky cootie-infested girl bishops.


Posted by: strasmangelo jones | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 8:35 AM
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Please let this come to pass.

SAN FRANCISCO (AP) -- The Presidential Memorial Commission of San Francisco wants to switch the name of the Oceanside Water Pollution Control Plant to the George W. Bush Sewage Plant.

Posted by: asl | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 8:37 AM
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So bishops, what exactly do they do? They're in charge of making new priests? Is that it? Let's say I was Anglican. Would I even know the name of my bishop?


Posted by: ed bowlinger | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 8:38 AM
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Super-Bishops can move left-right as well as along the diagonals.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 8:44 AM
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I also find resolutely odd the kind of arguments used against ordaining women:

Opponents of female bishops argue that Jesus, in choosing men for his 12 disciples, intended that men alone should have the responsibility of ministering to his followers.

Stanley, I'm Catholic, but I'm not aware of any other arguments that are made. I think this is it.


Posted by: Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 8:45 AM
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So bishops, what exactly do they do?

I presume they are regional operations managers, eg, budgets. Also exorcisms and water miracles, lower hitpoints but more mana and a speed bonus.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 8:46 AM
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Let's say I was Anglican. Would I even know the name of my bishop?

Well, if you were Catholic you probably would. I'm guessing that Anglicans are the same along that axis.

Bishops are a bit like US gov't execs, in that they hold both substantial and ceremonial duties. Probably the most noteworthy think they do is to set the political tone of their diocese - a conservative bishop will soon hound out the more liberal priests (and uppity laymen), while a liberal one (liberal in the least-political sense) will accrue liberal and free-thinking priests, and probably oversee more engaged laity and the like.

Their power within the diocese is more or less unchallenged, so they can have quite a bit of influence on practical matters like parish alignment and church construction, although I suspect those issues are less pressing in Merrie Olde.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 8:47 AM
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I'm sure someone more knowledgeable can mock and demean correct me


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 8:48 AM
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10. Anglicans sensu lato have dozens of Archbishops, all over the world, but certainly no Cardinals. The Church of England sensu stricto has Canterbury, who doubles as head of those members of the global communion who haven't fucked off to form their own homophobic sect, and York (the current Archbishop of York is an entertaining African who does sky diving for charity and stuff). The Church in Wales has its own guy.

12. Bishops are District Managers of the church. If you were Anglican (or Catholic) you'd certainly know the name of your bishop unless you'd just moved.


Posted by: OneFatEnglishman | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 8:49 AM
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18: Right, I meant the Church of England, rather than the whole Anglican Communion, and subconsciously tossed Wales in there because like all right-thinking people I hate the Welsh.


Posted by: strasmangelo jones | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 8:54 AM
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#13: That would make them... queens? Heh.


Posted by: Gaijin Biker | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 9:01 AM
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Stanley, I'm Catholic, but I'm not aware of any other arguments that are made. I think this is it.

I wasn't aware of an ongoing conversation about the matter in the Catholic Church, but I'm not an active Catholic, so, hmph. But in case it wasn't clear, I think it's a bad argument, no matter who's making it.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 9:07 AM
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re: 21

Well, they'd need to accept women priests first. There's no debate about women bishops, naturally, for that very reason.

There are certainly women who want the Catholic Church to ordain them.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 9:08 AM
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Lutherans have bishops! But I just found that out a couple of years ago, when my Mom's church (formerly mine) had an anniversary.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 9:10 AM
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I love that the breakaway diocese in America are all joining African churches (Church of Kenya, isn't it?). Homophobia trumps racism, at least when the black people are distant!


Posted by: snarkout | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 9:11 AM
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Brock,

Stanley, I'm Catholic, but I'm not aware of any other arguments that are made. I think this is it.

I'm not Catholic, but I married one, and I know many Catholics, including relatives on my Father's side.

I think one other argument that is made is that Priests must be men because Priests must be the Father of the congregation.

I find that reason silly but I know that I have heard it.

I am surprised to find that so many Catholics do not actually know what the immaculate conception refers to. Few people do, but I would have thought that Catholics would have had this drummed into them more than the hoi polloi.


Posted by: Tripp the Crazed | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 9:12 AM
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I am surprised to find that so many Catholics do not actually know what the immaculate conception refers to

Immaculate Conception = Mary.

Virgin Birth = JC.

Bada-bing. That's pretty standard knowledge, I thought. And I was a really shitty Catholic.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 9:15 AM
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Sects, sects, sects. Is that all these people think about?


Posted by: Nathan Williams | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 9:15 AM
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The Immaculate Conception was when Franco Harris caught a pass that rebounded off of Frankie Fuqua's body, then ran it all the way in for a game-winning touchdown in the 1972 playoffs (when I was approximately 2 weeks old).

I feel certain that it's been years since I've met a Catholic who didn't know this.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 9:15 AM
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Speaking of the immaculate conception: if Mary needed to be without original sin in order to conceive Jesus, then why didn't Mary's mother need to be without original sin in order to conceive Mary? Doesn't this set up an infinite regression of immaculate conceptions and corresponding bodily assumptions into paradise?


Posted by: strasmangelo jones | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 9:16 AM
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21: my point wasn't about Catholics vs. Anglicans, I was simply noting that your phrasing suggested that this was a particularly silly argument, but that there might be other, less silly, arguments being put forward in other places. But I'm pretty sure there aren't. The argument you quoted is the official Catholic doctrine, and I'm actually pretty sure that it's the least silly argument out there. It's logically unconnected, sure, but at least it attempts to shield itself with some religious mystique; all the other arguments I've heard are just simple and unapologetic sexism.


Posted by: Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 9:18 AM
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I'm not even sure the position in 25 can be called an "argument".


Posted by: Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 9:21 AM
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The belief in the Virgin Birth of Mary is a heresy, not a simple mistake.

There are those who believe that Mary's mother Anne (= "Hannah") was also conceived by Virgin Birth or something weird like that, her putative father Joachim being "assisted" late in life by an angel.

No word on Anne's mother. I'll keep looking.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Anne


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 9:21 AM
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Look, the reason we can't ordain women is because God has a penis. It's very simple, people.


Posted by: strasmangelo jones | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 9:22 AM
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30: Ah. Okay. You're saying "Catholics argue this, too" and I'm saying "Oh, I didn't know they even bothered talking about it officially. How 'bout that."

And: it's still a crap argument, although, sure, crappier ones exist.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 9:25 AM
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St. Anne is one of those superfluous backstory characters, tacked on by a desperate writer in one of the later seasons in an act of tawdry narrative recycling. Oh, so now Jesus's grandmother had a miraculous birth too, huh? And she got visited by an angel, too? Mmm-hmmm. Quit while you're ahead, Church!


Posted by: strasmangelo jones | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 9:30 AM
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And I'd probably keel over in delighted shock . . .

Cf.

It would make it very difficult to read posts from you after witnessing this behavior, Stanley.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 9:32 AM
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Look, the reason we can't ordain women is because God has a penis. It's very simple, people.

Just because God impregnated someone doesn't mean he has a penis. He's GOD, he can do anything.


Posted by: Fatman | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 9:33 AM
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29:

Speaking of the immaculate conception: if Mary needed to be without original sin in order to conceive Jesus, then why didn't Mary's mother need to be without original sin in order to conceive Mary? Doesn't this set up an infinite regression of immaculate conceptions and corresponding bodily assumptions into paradise?

Interesting point, but I think you are neglecting the sex and gender of the people involved, and the oscillation.

We all know that it is the women responsible for sexual purity. (yeah, they used to be the temptresses that were responsible for seducing men from their manly purity bit I am talking about today, not the 1800s).

So the women must be pure, that is a fact. But few people know that the every two generations this switches. This explains the ideas of the 1800s, for example. Every two generations women are whores, then virgins, etc. We men, on the other hand, are simple victims of this whole thing. So Hannah's mother didn't matter, Hannah's father did. And since it is impossible for men to be sexually pure even God himself couldn't pull off the trick of keeping Mary's Mother's Father safe from seduction.

So it started as far back as it could, with Hannah, then Mary, then it was Jesus' turn. Some claim Jesus, like all men, was sexually impure but that idea makes the baby Jesus cry and we never want to make the baby Jesus cry.

Jesus was sexually pure and was crucified before he could ever experience the sins of the flesh although that whore Mary (a different Mary) sure did try to seduce him.


Posted by: Tripp the Crazed | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 9:34 AM
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It's holy turtles all the way down, stras.

Challenging the church's doctrine on the ordination of women was what got me accused of heresy by my Monsignor when I was in high school. That's probably the high point of my life in the Church.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 9:35 AM
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35: Quit while you're ahead, Church!

Stras, you are making the baby Jesus cry. Why would you be so cruel?

Just because God impregnated someone doesn't mean he has a penis. He's GOD, he can do anything.

Well, yeah, but since he can do anything then he would have a penis. EVERYONE wants a penis. Sheesh.


Posted by: Tripp the Crazed | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 9:37 AM
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St. Anne is one of those superfluous backstory characters, tacked on by a desperate writer in one of the later seasons in an act of tawdry narrative recycling

Not nearly as bad as the retcon that gave Joseph two completely different genealogies both showing his descent from the House of David.


Posted by: emir | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 9:40 AM
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St Anne's mother was named Emerentia or Ismeria. More here: here

troublemakers occasionally ask about St. Anne's mother. My guess is that the Inquisition used that as a "tell" indicating that the questioner needed persuasion by red-hot iron.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 9:47 AM
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EVERYONE wants a penis.

At the Vatican Mineshaft.


Posted by: Populuxe | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 9:48 AM
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Everyone wants my penis. Except God, who can make his own.


Posted by: peter | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 9:52 AM
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31: oh yeah? Well, check your e-mail.

Now that's an argument.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 9:54 AM
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Even more miraculous than the miraculous births of Mary and Jesus: the miraculous births of Jesus's various siblings, each of which yielded an ordinary human child, yet none of which affected Mary's blessed virginness.


Posted by: strasmangelo jones | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 9:55 AM
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#46. I always thought that was kind of like Mr. Spock, actually.


Posted by: Populuxe | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 10:02 AM
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47: What, Mary goes into pon-farr every seven years?


Posted by: strasmangelo jones | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 10:05 AM
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48: in fact, in ancient Jerusalem mangers were typically used as ceremonial battlefields. One of those things that gets glossed over.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 10:08 AM
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God has a penis.

No, no, no! God is a penis.


Posted by: mcmc | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 10:21 AM
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Mortal Sins and Venial Sins. What's a Cardinal Sin?

I thought it was "carnal" rather than "cardinal" sin = i.e., synonymous with mortal sin. I recentl learned that the distinction between mortal and venial sins is that the former must be confessed specifically in order to obtain redemption while the latter can be covered with a blanket "any and all venial sins I may have committed" type confession.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 10:32 AM
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God has a penis

This was one of the most entertaining, drunken late night philosophy sessions in college.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 10:36 AM
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Paul also uncorked this gem in 1 Corinthians:

Let the women keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is a disgrace for a woman to speak in church.

F'in' Paul.


Posted by: Mo MacArbie | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 10:50 AM
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I've always been annoyed by people who think that Truly Biblical Christianity would be better.

Unless they go through the Bible with a scissors and cut out the parts they don't like, as Jefferson did. It would end up being a very compact Bible if I did that.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 10:56 AM
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My years of Catholic school (all 12 of them, bitches) suggested that women's exclusion from the priesthood involved yes, the fact that JC chose only men, but also that the Marys (Virgin and Whore) provided a model for how women were to be involved int he ministry, which is basically to say support-staff. I also remember this being pressed in some certainly strange way: a priest is married to his church. The Church is understood to be gendered female. You do the math.


Posted by: Sybil Vane | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 10:56 AM
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I also remember this being pressed in some certainly strange way: a priest is married to his church. The Church is understood to be gendered female. You do the math.

Indeed, the Church is the Bride of Christ - a very old idea.

The analogy ban is making a lot more sense now, isn't it?


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 11:01 AM
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the Marys (Virgin and Whore)

MARY MAGDALENE WASN'T A PROSTITUTE.


Posted by: OPINIONATED PEDANT | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 11:02 AM
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I should also say I'm impressed that Labs got the obligatory Monty Python reference out of the way in the very first comment! I guess I was, well...


Posted by: Mo MacArbie | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 11:02 AM
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a priest is married to his church. The Church is understood to be gendered female. You do the math.

That's a lot of husbands.


Posted by: Populuxe | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 11:03 AM
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What if your church is a lesbian?


Posted by: strasmangelo jones | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 11:05 AM
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The reaction against women priests or bishops is visceral. Theology merely attempts to justify the visceral reaction.

Back in the '70s, when the US Episcopal Church was discussing ordaining women, I was living all the way uptown in Manhattan. Our apartment overlooked an Episcopal church (on Cummings St. if I remember correctly; our apartment was in the back corner of a building that opened to Seaman Ave. -- these details for LB, so she can picture the place). The vicar was the Episcopal Chaplain to the NYPD. I didn't know that until one day I arrived home to discover the streets lined with cops in dress uniforms with shiny buttons for the funeral of one of the rare Episcopalian New York cops. He was conservative (the NYPD would hire a liberal chaplain?) so was against ordaining women. He had a huge banner hung along the roof of the church: NO PRIESTESSES.

And that's really why there's opposition. It isn't that the canonical gospels showed Christ selecting only men, so we should. They're canonical, in part, because they show Christ selecting only men. In the second century, and in the twentieth, priestess had a pagan sound. Did not want.


Posted by: jim | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 11:07 AM
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MARY MAGDALENE WASN'T A PROSTITUTE.

But she was a little on the trashy side...


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 11:09 AM
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Theology merely attempts to justify the visceral reaction.

As a general rule, yes.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 11:11 AM
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Hey, we looked at an apartment right across from the Seaman/Cummings church!


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 11:12 AM
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Heh. I used to take my kids there for a toddler playgroup. These days, the vicar is a priestess.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 11:12 AM
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Cummings St. … Seaman Ave

Disgusting.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 11:16 AM
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FWIW, the Minister that covered my high school was a woman*, and two of the most recent 'heads' of the Church of Scotland [it's an elected position, so not like Anglicanism or Catholicism] have been women.

* twenty or more years ago. Her kids went to the school, too. So, not only a woman, but not virginal, either.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 11:24 AM
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Queen of England should be an elected position too. Maybe all those disagreeable religious types from the Third World would stop moving there if it was ruled by Jade Goody.


Posted by: Fatman | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 11:28 AM
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MARY MAGDALENE WASN'T A PROSTITUTE.

It was confusing having two different women named Mary kicking around, on top of the Blessed Mary and Martha, so when we adapted for the screenplay, we combined characters. I think it's still really faithful to the spirit of the book.


Posted by: OPINIONATED GREGORY THE GREAT | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 11:30 AM
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Gregory, you don't really seem all that OPINIONATED. I feel betrayed.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 11:32 AM
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SILENCE, WENCH!

THE TRUE WHORING HAS NOT YET BEGUN


Posted by: OPINIONATED ALEXANDER VI | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 11:36 AM
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69. 70: No flirting!


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 11:37 AM
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|| RIP Tom Disch.

Suicide yesterday. His blog contains much good writing and poetry, all for free.

Perhaps on-topic, as he did after all found a religion . ||>


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 11:39 AM
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73 - A friend IMed me that early today. It's a real shame, although perhaps unsurprising given the downward spiral his life had taken since his partner died and that his writing is so bleak that even John Emerson might find it depressing.


Posted by: snarkout | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 12:19 PM
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they hold both substantial and ceremonial duties.
The latter being transubstantial duties.


Posted by: TJ | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 12:28 PM
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28: The Immaculate Conception was when Franco Harris caught a pass that rebounded off of Frankie Fuqua's body

ahem...Reception .....cough, cough

One of those plays that changed the rules, at the time if it had been "Immaculate" (the ball had not been hit by hard-charging defender Jack Tatum*, as most agree that it hadn't been) it would not have counted as a completion. Rule changed not long after opening up a lot more options on Hail Marys and other desperation plays.

*Tatum was kind of star-crossed, maybe the greatest hitter and pure athlete in football at the time, he is basically remembered for this play, (which if he not been trying for the typical over-the-top Tatum smash would never have happened) and the hit that paralyzed Darryl Stingley.

</earnest comments on unimportant side points>


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 1:01 PM
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Maybe all those disagreeable religious types from the Third World would stop moving there if it was ruled by Jade Goody.

The great thing about the British Constitution (yes, there is one) is that the Queen reigns but does not rule. Hence the anecdote about her reaching for a second glass of wine at a family lunch and her mother saying, "Do you think you should, dear, you have to reign this afternoon."

FSM protect us from executive heads of state.


Posted by: OneFatEnglishman | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 1:02 PM
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MARY MAGDALENE WASN'T A PROSTITUTE.

Nobody even claimed that. But it does bring up an old joke.

Sister Mary at the Catholic school was asking the children what they want to be when they grow up. All was going fine until little Mary Catherine said "I want to be a prostitute."

The nun fainted dead away. The children ran and fetched the Priest who revived Sister Mary and asked what the problem was.

Sister Mary again asked Mary Catherine what she wanted to be when she grew up and Mary Catherine again replied "I want to be a prostitute."

Sister Mary said "Oh thank goodness. I thought you said a protestant!"


Posted by: Tripp the Crazed | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 1:15 PM
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||

Goddammit. I work my ass off for this company, finally get the promotion I should have had two years ago, take on a crapload of extra responsibility, and the friggin' "compensation committee" will only allow a fucking 5% raise. Way to keep up with inflation, dipshits. That will almost cover the projected increase in the cost of my heating bill this winter.

Meanwhile, they had $8 billion in revenue last year...

|>


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 1:19 PM
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Nobody even claimed that

Tell that to Gregory I.


Posted by: strasmangelo jones | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 1:21 PM
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Spike, didn't you know? The extra responsibilty is it's own reward.


Posted by: Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 1:24 PM
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Tell that to Gregory I.

Ummm, OK I guess, but the first use of the word "prostitute" that I can find was in comment 57. Are you referring to a discussion from the past?


Posted by: Tripp the Crazed | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 1:26 PM
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Yes, I'm now going to carve "its not it's" into the back of my hand a dozen times as penance. Will that satisfy you, merciless pedants?


Posted by: Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 1:27 PM
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Yeah, I'll take on that extra responsibility to find my ass another job...


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 1:29 PM
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Spike,

Welcome to real life. I've been down that road and back many times.

The sad facts are these:

The amount you get paid has nothing to do with how much money or profit your company made. It has mostly to do with how little they can pay you and still retain you. It is a zero-sum game between you and the company and they have almost all the power.

They don't care about your heating costs or your financial situation. That has nothing to do with it.

Their duty is to their shareholders, not to you. Your duty is to yourself but since American workers have gladly handed over all the power we used to have (via collective action) we are left to bend over, take it, and complain to our friends.

You don't like it? Quit. The invisible hand of the market that libertarians worship does not give reach-arounds, it squeezes us by the jewels.

We workers have only ourselves to blame. When you have power you need to be willing to fight to keep it or it will get taken away.


Posted by: Tripp the Crazed | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 1:33 PM
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the first use of the word "prostitute" that I can find was in comment 57

"Whore" pops up in 55. And in your 38, actually.


Posted by: strasmangelo jones | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 1:34 PM
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The Presidential Memorial Commission of San Francisco wants to switch the name of the Oceanside Water Pollution Control Plant to the George W. Bush Sewage Plant.

I believe the technical term among folks who design such facilities is "shit plant," which would be even more fitting.


Posted by: Not Prince Hamlet | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 1:36 PM
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Actually, my even more nefarious plan is to punish them by goofing off at Unfogged on the company dime. At least for the remainder of the afternoon.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 1:36 PM
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Oh well, by the time I turn up I have nothing to add. The argument from what Jesus did is strengthened, in Cathoic minds, by the argument that it is what every other church did until very recently. But, yes, it is about the patriarchy: since Jesus was the perfect man, if patriarchy was good enough for him ...


Posted by: Nworb Werdna | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 1:46 PM
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90

The amount you get paid has nothing to do with how much money or profit your company made. It has mostly to do with how little they can pay you and still retain you.

There's an interesting debate in labor economics about this. Pure profit-maximizing behavior (and thus neoclassical economics) says you're completely correct about this, Tripp. In fact, this is an excellent statement of the matter -- short and clear.

However, a retained unhappy worker can do a lot of damage that the company may not learn about until too late. They can also work below their abilities in all kinds of subtle ways the company may not be able to detect. Hence, Spike's point in 88.

Thus, workers who the company must trust to do good work and cannot be observed too closely will get paid more than the minimum necessary to retain them. "Efficiency wages".


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 2:05 PM
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You'd almost think that a non-antagonistic relationship between the paymasters and the plebs would be best for all concerned.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 2:27 PM
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86: "Whore" pops up in 55. And in your 38, actually.

Yes, I agree. I really wish people would respond to what I actually write instead of what they read.

There are differences between the word whore and the word prostitute.

Most notably the usage of the word whore in the well-known false dichotomy that women are either virgins or whores. I think I even mentioned that in a previous comment.

Yes, I know, pedantic, but really, when the medium we are using to communicate is writing with little else then I do think we should strive for precision in our word usage.


Posted by: Tripp the Crazed | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 2:40 PM
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You've got to be shitting me, Tripp. Are you claiming that calling Mary Magdalene a "whore" does not refer in any way to the traditional belief that Mary Magdalene was a prostitute?


Posted by: strasmangelo jones | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 2:48 PM
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91: You'd almost think that a non-antagonistic relationship between the paymasters and the plebs would be best for all concerned.

I'd like to build the world a home
and funish it with love
grow apple trees and honey bees
and snow white turtle doves

I'd like to teach the world to sing
in perfect harmony
I'd like to hold it in my arms
and keep it company


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 2:48 PM
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95

I would like to echo the sentiments of 93, but in a less angry and annoying tone.


Posted by: peter | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 2:54 PM
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90: You ivory towered academics really crack me up. Why in the world would anyone care about any long-term goal like the good of the company if there are no incentives to do so?

The whole system is whacked into the following - the shareholders get no voting rights because they've bought mutual funds to be diversified. The Executives form a small exclusive club that is VERY hard to get into but once you are in you are set for life. The workers have no power. The consumers have no power. The government power has been co-opted by the executives.

Ultimately there is no accountability and human history is just full of examples of what happens in that case.

Any other considerations of how it should be are just, well, academic. We can make our computer models do whatever we want but in the real world those with power increase it until the system collapses, either under its own incompetence or from an outside competitor.

Now that we've finally established a global economy there will be no outside competitor. That leaves internal collapse as the inevitable greed, corruption, and incompetence take their toll.


Posted by: Tripp the Crazed | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 2:54 PM
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PGD isn't an academic, Tripp. He just isn't goofily simplistic in his understanding of economics and the world.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 2:57 PM
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stras,

No, I am not claiming that. When I make a claim I actually, you know, claim it.

I am saying that the 'traditional' role of women since time began has been either virgin or whore, and the Christian church codified that in its myths about the two Mary's - the virgin and the whore.

I was also saying that the word prostitute is not the word whore. Using the word 'prostitute" muddies the water. Pointing out that Mary Magdalene was not actually a whore is factual and demonstrates that the Church is perpetuating a myth not based on fact.


Posted by: Tripp the Crazed | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 3:02 PM
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PGD isn't an academic, Tripp. He just isn't goofily simplistic in his understanding of economics and the world.

Oh, my bad. I couldn't imagine any normal non-academic person being interested in labor economic debates.


Posted by: Tripp the Crazed | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 3:04 PM
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I would like to echo the sentiments of 93, but in a less angry and annoying tone

I'm angry and annoying on behalf of language, peter.


Posted by: strasmangelo jones | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 3:05 PM
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Stras, you should get 95 on a t-shirt.


Posted by: snarkout | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 3:06 PM
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Sifu,

Oooh, wait, I sense a learning opportunity. I would love to hear your explanation of what is happening in economics and the modern world.

Would you cover, say, WWII to the present?

Please


Posted by: Tripp the Crazed | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 3:07 PM
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I was also saying that the word prostitute is not the word whore.

whore

n.
1. A prostitute.


Posted by: strasmangelo jones | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 3:07 PM
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Snarkout, I reserve my right to be the only annoying person at Unfogged who is ever called out for being annoying.


Posted by: strasmangelo jones | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 3:08 PM
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Stras: That would work as a t-shirt too!

Tripp, you're not helping your case here.


Posted by: snarkout | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 3:11 PM
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I couldn't imagine any normal non-academic person being interested in labor economic debates.

Why's that? It's relevant stuff, it produces some very interesting models, and most of the work in the area that I've seen is well-founded in empirical results.

Also, I believe PGD is actually an academic economist by training, even if he's applying it outside the ivory tower these days.


Posted by: Po-Mo Polymath | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 3:13 PM
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104: That right was taken from you long ago, as far as I can tell.


Posted by: Po-Mo Polymath | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 3:14 PM
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103 - stras, dude. I admit I am being pedantic, but really, pointing out that the words are synonyms does not make them the same word. They sound different. They have different histories. They may evoke different emotions.

And Po-Mo, labor economic debates are not relevant to almost all people. What is relevant to people is what is happening to them personally, not some discussion that will have no impact on them. It is in that sense I was using the word "academic."

I say this not in a negative way - mathematicians are not 'normal.' Neither am I. Neither are academic economists. We need to recognize that.


Posted by: Tripp the Crazed | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 3:23 PM
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107: PMP, the Unfogged commentariat consists entirely of annoying people (and sometimes read). The set of annoying people who are regularly chastised for being annoying - by the other annoying people - is relatively small.


Posted by: strasmangelo jones | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 3:24 PM
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Following 106, I thought Kathy G's posts about monopsony were very interesting (and quite comprehensible to someone who only took two semesters of econ), and not just because she was beating McMegan over the head with labor economics textbooks.


Posted by: snarkout | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 3:24 PM
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snarkout,

Tripp, you're not helping your case here.

Oh, is that where the confusion has come in? I don't have a 'case.' I'm not debating. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. Why would you expect a 'case' from someone who is crazed?


Posted by: Tripp the Crazed | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 3:25 PM
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Can't really argue with 109 though.

At least I like ya, stras.


Posted by: Po-Mo Polymath | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 3:28 PM
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Aw, I like Stras too, thus my suggestion of fashionable Unfogged-wear.


Posted by: snarkout | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 3:30 PM
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Are you claiming that calling Mary Magdalene a "whore" does not refer in any way to the traditional belief that Mary Magdalene was a prostitute?

Basically, stras, all women are whores, if you know what I mean, but not all of them outright sell their favors for money, which would make them prostitutes.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 3:35 PM
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Well, I happen to believe that the Magdalene was quite a lady.


Posted by: strasmangelo jones | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 3:37 PM
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But I hear she didn't like craps games with barons and earls.


Posted by: snarkout | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 3:42 PM
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1.) The Episcopal Church in Scotland (not the established church there) does not have an archbishop, but one of the bishops is designated primus.

2.) The Episcopal Church in the USA doesn't have archbishops either. The "head" of the Episcopal church in the US, currently a woman with a doctorate in oceanography, is called the presiding bishop. It's a really weird position, because the presiding bishop has offices in New York, but is not the bishop of New York and has no diocese of her own and does not supervise other bishops.

Mostly, she goes to international conferences of primates representing the Episcopal church. She then writes letters to Congress asking them to forgive third world debt.

3.)I would not more venture to criticize the Anglicans on this than I would argue with a Scientologist about the prehistoric clams controlling his mind.

Wow, I find this offensive.

4.) The ELCA (the more liberal Lutheran church in the U.S.) has bishops and in fact Episcopal bishops have to be present at the ordination of a Lutheran pastor. because of something called "A Call to Common Mission," where Lutherans and Episcopalians are supposed to work together. Lutheran pastors are allowed to serve in Episcopal churches and we Episcopalians made the Lutherans embrace the historic episcopate, because we think that the episcopate is a symbol of the apostolic succession and a marker of the catholicity of the church, that is that we are part of a universal church and not just a specific congregation. Some Lutherans are really angry about this, because they want pastors to be able to ordain other pastors, and they think that having bishops, priests and deacons is inconsistent with traditional Lutheran thinking, though the Swedish church has had bishops for a long time. I believe that an Episcopal bishop must be present at the ordination of a Lutheran pastor.


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 3:54 PM
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I've been assuming that PGD was an academic economist, based on his comments. Is that wrong? Based on the same logic, I've also been assuming that Sifu is the subject of Prince's song, Sexy MF.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 4:16 PM
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Economists don't always teach/ work in universities. Some of them work for the government or in think-tanks.


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 4:29 PM
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119: And private industry hires a load of academically-trained economists.

Really, there are a lot of places for them to work.


Posted by: Po-Mo Polymath | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 4:33 PM
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1.) The Episcopal Church in Scotland (not the established church there) does not have an archbishop, but one of the bishops is designated primus.

While there is no established Church in Scotland, when HM is in Scotland, she's a member of the Church of Scotland, not the Episcopalians. I've no idea what that does to her status as head of the Church of England, or if she's actually expected to believe in the doctrines of the Kirk.

Does she have to stop believing in Bishops when she crosses the Tweed?

What happens if she dies in Scotland? Does she posthumously convert to Anglicanism on the way to be buried in England, or does the Church of Scotland get to bury her, or...?


Posted by: Keir | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 4:35 PM
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Not that I have any standing to adjudicate between Tripp and stras, but:

It's obvious that, since Mary Magdelene (hence "MM") is widely reputed to have been a prostitute, then a reference to her as a "whore" would evoke that history. It is equally obvious that any reference to a pair of women that identifies one as a virgin and the other as a whore is likely evoking the widely-recognized virgin-whore dichotomy.

Therefore, it is reasonable both to assume that Tripp's calling MM a whore meant that he thought she was a prostitute and for Tripp to say that that's not what he meant. It's not backtracking - the evidence is right there in his original comment that he was evoking virgin-whore, not "MM was a prostitute."

Anyway, I do thank the internet for teaching me that there is no textual evidence whatsoever that MM was a prostitute.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 5:49 PM
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i'm not annoying enough :(
i mean that how always people count me, nani nani and read, everywhere i go
i've tried to translate MT's MM once, then lost it when my pc crashed


Posted by: read | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 6:50 PM
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The only halfway compelling argument against the ordination of women I ever heard was a Spanish friend who said "Well, the pope is El Papa in Spanish. La Papa would be a potato."


Posted by: theorajones | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 7:05 PM
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124: But potatoes are delicious! How I long for a delicious pope.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 7:13 PM
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That's not a good argument at all--potatoes are even better than rice.


Posted by: Merganser | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 7:13 PM
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Stanley's pwnage broke the blog.


Posted by: Merganser | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 7:30 PM
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Economists who work in government, think tanks, or private industry are whores.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 9:23 PM
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I totally object to the joke in 78. I'm sure I never said anything about wanting to be a protestant.


Posted by: Mary Catherine | Link to this comment | 07- 8-08 9:28 PM
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129:

Mary Catherine, good one.

In case people don't know this - I was raised Lutheran but liked Catholics. I especially liked Catholic girls and ended up marrying one. Looking back I suspect it was probably because unlike - um, Sifu?, I was never comfortable about being blunt about sex. "Let's do it" just wasn't in my vocabulary.

So I suspect that while I liked Catholic girls the more important point was that they liked me, or at least the way I behaved, but really, who knows?

One other OT point - this blog is dead boring when everyone agrees, so sometimes I am a little provocative in terms of being vague about what I am saying or latching on to some minor point. This blog seems to be a safe place to do that. I admit I can be pedantic. Arrogant. Irritating. So sue me.


Posted by: Tripp the Crazed | Link to this comment | 07- 9-08 9:19 AM
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128: Economists who work in government, think tanks, or private industry are whores.

Oh yeah, and academic economists are shills.


Posted by: Tripp the Crazed | Link to this comment | 07- 9-08 9:21 AM
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Over the weekend I ended up talking with a cousin-by-marriage who is a retired Anglican clergyman (and whose daughter is a lesbian, so I could be reasonably certain that he was on the side of inclusion).

His take on the situation was essentially, "Hang in there, the breakaway congregations will come back eventually, just like the pro-slavery congregations did."


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 07- 9-08 6:17 PM
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