Re: Ask The Mineshaft - Miracle of Preventing Life Edition

1

Celibacy works pretty well.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 10:14 AM
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Gay sex, too!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 10:15 AM
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That won't stop the spider babies.


Posted by: Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 10:15 AM
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You won't get knocked up if you just make sure he pulls out in time.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 10:15 AM
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You're wrapping your willie with a dorkdom, then? That's a barrier method. (She said those don't stay put.)


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 10:16 AM
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5 -> 1.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 10:16 AM
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You could take a trip to Europe to get one of the non-frame beaded IUDs put in. They make a combo copper/ hormone option.

I'm on Kariva (generic for mircette) which I like pretty well. Don't different pill formulations affect different women differently? Maybe a different formulation would stop the troubles.


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 10:17 AM
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The IUD doesn't close off anything for five years. You can have it removed at any time and your fertility bounces back immediately.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 10:17 AM
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8 is true, it's very easy- in our case it removed itself!


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 10:18 AM
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9: well that is handy.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 10:19 AM
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Paragard IUD + a little Vicodin/Darvocet/your painkiller of choice for 24 hours post insertion = no crazy-making hormones and no worries. Go to Planned Parenthood if your doctor won't discuss all the options with you.


Posted by: Amber | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 10:19 AM
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Has anyone here tried the just-copper IUD? I'm fascinated by its hormone-free-ness.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 10:21 AM
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And just think of the fun effects you'll get scuffing your rubber-sneakered feet across the carpet in the summer!


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 10:23 AM
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It rocks, heebie.


Posted by: Amber | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 10:23 AM
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Also, yes, I have on good authority that IUD insertion is painful but considerably less so than squeezing a nine-pound baby through your cervix. So.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 10:27 AM
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14: Have you ever needed an MRI since?

There's a livejournal site/community called IUD divas which discusses IUDs. There are way more options outside the U.S. Are there ways to be politically active to push to make more non-hormonal options available to women?


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 10:29 AM
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The sponge reappeared for a few months and now it seems to have disappeared again.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 10:32 AM
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Just find a boyfriend who is unable to have sex without condoms, like I am.


Posted by: CN | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 10:32 AM
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The Pill and I parted ways about eight months ago due to the low-dose pill no longer working properly, the fact that monophasic pills drive me nuts, and the Nuvaring sending my blood pressure through the roof.

The diaphragm/nonoxynol combination has been working well for us so far. (I'm less than confident with it, but also at a point where less than confident is kinda okay.) I think there are other spermicides out there are are supposed to be less irritating.

Plus, what apo said about the IUD. They don't close the door for five years; that's just the longest they're good for, iirc.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 10:34 AM
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12: Yes. Insertion in my case was an impressive twinge, but the pain was over and done within ten seconds. No biggie. And the string has been, at least for me, entirely non-irritating.

Somewhat heavier, crampier periods, but not in a way that's a noticeable hardship. Really, I think the IUD is A1 excellent birthcontrol, would buy again!!! </Ebay-speak>


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 10:34 AM
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I've been thinking about Paragard, too. I'm unable to take the pill without dismantling my academic life (tried two kinds, would rather kill myself than try another), and fear the hormoney IUDs for the same reason. 28, nulliparous.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 10:34 AM
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Celibacy is a virtue, continence is a gift.

But I got cut at a very young age, without any preservation of my toxic genes.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 10:34 AM
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7: I've gone through several (three in the last year alone) and the problems keep getting worse: migraines and homicidal mood swings for half the month and the recent return of menstrual cramps. I tried one last formulation for the past 4 months that's supposed to prevent these problems (but has only made them worse) and I can't spend half my life flinching at light and trying not to kill people. I'm done.

Paragard may ultimately be the answer here, but please, keep the info coming.


Posted by: Previous Pill Popper | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 10:35 AM
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AB is going with the IUD, and her doctor said more or less 15. My original plan was to get snipped (hell, I spent all night at the hospital just the other day), but as AB approaches menopause, it seemed to make more sense to do the non-surgical thing one time, and be done with it. I'm not sure which one she's going to be using.

She has always used the Pill, but the brand her insurer made her use didn't suit her quite as well, which sucked. But no reason to use the Pill if you've no interest in being fertile again.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 10:36 AM
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The sponge reappeared for a few months and now it seems to have disappeared again.

It doesn't quite disappear, just fits back inside a little dissolvable capsule. Dino-shaped birth control!


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 10:36 AM
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I think that the Paragard lasts 10 years; the Mirena only lasts 5.

There are a ton of different IUD options outside the U.S. I want more of them here.


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 10:37 AM
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A++++ no babies! would insert again! fast shipping!


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 10:38 AM
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I am worried about the heavier, crampier periods. I've had horrible, shrieking cramp pains every month (for only about four straight hours) since I was a teen, to the point that I had a standing prescription for heavy-duty now-illegal pain killers that never worked. As it is, I'm damn lucky I haven't had to cancel a class.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 10:38 AM
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A++++ no babies! would insert again! fast shipping schtupping!


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 10:39 AM
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heavy-duty now-illegal pain killers

Out of (mostly) professional curiosity, can I ask which ones?


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 10:41 AM
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16: No MRIs. I figure that if there is anything wrong with me bad enough that I need one they can yank it then.

You'll save quite a bit of money in the long run with the copper IUD and the company that makes Paragard has payment plans, since it does require a substantial up-front investment. Other things to bear in mind: IUDs are not menstrual-cup-friendly and you do need to check them periodically to see if they are still there. Cramps will be worse, but in my experience not intolerable.

The frameless IUD they have in England is supposed to be better for the nulliparous but it requires the practitioner to be very experienced, since s/he is jabbing the thing into the wall of your uterus. I've also seen some recent research indicating that its benefits of lowered expulsion rates and less cramping may have been oversold. It probably isn't worth a trip.


Posted by: Amber | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 10:41 AM
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Nothing fun, just Vioxx. They used to give it to people with arthritis until it started killing them. There's no fun side-effect at all, except, IME, a low-level seething rage cause by its ineffectiveness at dampening the shrieking pain.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 10:43 AM
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IUDs are not menstrual-cup-friendly

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I had no idea!!


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 10:44 AM
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22: I don't think they do that anymore. For a variety of reasons, one of my best friends never wants to have kids. He's very sure about this, and would love to get the ol' snip-n-tuck, but can't find a doctor willing to do it.

Gotta admit, if it weren't for the fact that I do want kids one of these days, it would be pretty liberating. There's a tragic dearth of male BC options.


Posted by: Po-Mo Polymath | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 10:46 AM
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You won't get knocked up if you just make sure he pulls out in time.

This method has worked for me for decades.


Posted by: male president | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 10:47 AM
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36

I want a combo IUD. Mostly copper with a low dose of hormones to staunch the heavy bleeding and to help a bit with cramps.

Cala, Sorry if this is too personal of a question, but how did you know that the low dose version was no longer working?


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 10:47 AM
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I read somewhere that the failure rate with IUDs is actually lower than that for sterilization.


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 10:49 AM
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35: you're probably sterile.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 10:50 AM
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Near constant spotting. Not enough to be worrisome, just enough to be annoying.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 10:50 AM
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35: Must you deny us your essence?

I find it a little sexually frustrating, but I have to admit, it's a common practice, convenient, and, AFAIK, effective.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 10:51 AM
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34- This will only lead to more back-alley vasectomies.
35 plus BBT monitoring is our current method of choice, but we're planning on having another some time so the consequences would not be terrible.
Incidentally, it sounds like pill and IUD may be blocked from federal funding (or at least subject to "concience clause" denials) because they're being redefined as abortifacients.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 10:51 AM
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and, AFAIK, effective.

This part is wrong in general, fwiw.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 10:53 AM
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Incidentally, it sounds like pill and IUD may be blocked from federal funding (or at least subject to "concience clause" denials) because they're being redefined as abortifacients.

Oh my fucking God. GOD DAMN AMERICA.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 10:53 AM
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I find it a little sexually frustrating, but I have to admit, it's a common practice, convenient, and, AFAIK, effective.

It was ineffective for me. Single exposure, too.


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 10:55 AM
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42: I have reason to believe I am very hard to get pregnant, so my experience is not to be used as evidence.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 10:55 AM
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44 was supposed to be presidential.


Posted by: President Lady | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 10:56 AM
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My sister cashed in $70,000 on the Dalkon Shield IUD a few decades ago. She was lucky enough to be sick for 6 months and then sterile. She adopted two kids afterwards. The judge who made the award, Miles Lord, was reprimanded because he used harsh language against the defendants. In many jurisdictions the plaintiffs got nothing, IIRC.

They say that present-day are better. They say.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 10:57 AM
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45: Right, it depends on both parties that way. AIUI, some men have non-trivial amounts of viable sperm in pre-ejaculatory fluid, others less. Combining this and plus monitoring may be pretty effective, especially if the woman has a very predictable period, but it's no guarantee so ymm very much v.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 10:58 AM
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A good friend of mine assured me that her cousin, who happened to be mentally ill, was born with the IUD clutched in his tiny hand. On the other hand, she was studying to become a chiropractor.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 10:59 AM
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47: They do say, and the problems with the Dalcon Shield are well understood -- multifiber string wicking bacteria into the uterus. The current IUDs have a long record of not causing the same problems.

Don't scare people without looking things up first.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 10:59 AM
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Isn't "less than non-trivial" = "trivial"?


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 11:00 AM
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I find it a little sexually frustrating, but I have to admit, it's a common practice, convenient, and, AFAIK, effective.

Effectiveness probably varies a lot, especially by guy. I have good control and not much pre-come. Plus never any kids (never tried), so for all I know I'm infertile anyway.

I like the frustrating part, even though it's frustrating. Just a touch of frustration spices sex up.


Posted by: male president | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 11:00 AM
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LB, I was deliberately scaring this very sophisticated audience in full knowledge that the facts were against me. You underestimate me.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 11:01 AM
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54

So what is the truth about pulling out? Does it work or not?

I guess what I'm asking is: is the thing about sperm in pre-orgasmic secretions true? It's always seemed a little unlikely to me, kind of like the "one hit of crack and you're addicted" white lie.


Posted by: Benjamin Franklin | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 11:02 AM
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51: "less" was supposed to be "less so". You also can't assume consistency even for one person.

I guess it's a bit like a doctor telling you you can't father a child. In most cases, what they really mean is it's low probability.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 11:03 AM
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I know a man who was quite successful at preventing pregnancy simply by taking a scalding hot bath every day - it cooks the tadpoles. If a hot bath is too much trouble I bet you could get the same results by just dipping his balls in scalding water every evening before bed. Probably need to keep them there for at least five minutes.

Also, vasectomies are reversible. But try boiling his nuts first and see how that works.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 11:03 AM
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54: See 44. Sounds like it does go wrong on occasion.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 11:04 AM
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BBT monitoring

The people I know who use this are conscientious types and it works extremely well for them.

It sounds hideous to me because who wants an entire fertile-lifetime of avoiding sex [intercourse] at exactly the time when you are most in the mood?

I understand that not all women's libidos are as clearly linked to their menstrual cycle as mine, though. Maybe they're the ones who like BBT.


Posted by: Lurker | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 11:04 AM
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So what is the truth about pulling out? Does it work or not?

The truth is that It doesn't in general, but it may be fairly effective for some instances. It *really* doesn't when you forget to (hence the dismissal by health-care professionals). Like all other methods short of actually not being in possession of some necessary anatomy, it's a matter of lowered probabilities.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 11:05 AM
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Seriously, it's such bullshit that there aren't contraceptive options for men.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 11:06 AM
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Given all the acrobatics people go through to get pregnant, I'm sure that statistically it's better than nothing.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 11:06 AM
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Differences in fertility are enormous. When I found out how long it took me to cause pregnancy when I was trying to, I bitterly regretted my extraordinarily careful HS years.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 11:06 AM
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I guess what I'm asking is: is the thing about sperm in pre-orgasmic secretions true?

Yes, but the actual sperm count varies a fair amount, and I think can vary in the same person on different occasions.

But it does seem like one of those lies they tell you in sex ed to make sure you're terrified of ever being near the opposite sex ('the AIDS can swim through the molecules in the condom.')


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 11:07 AM
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56 needs a fearsome disclaimer


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 11:07 AM
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58- At those times you just use a condom if you really feel the need.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 11:07 AM
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54: Ben, if you can use condoms, do. Guys who won't are really obnoxious princesses about it. Guys who pull out are big prima donnas about their control and how masterful they are or whatever (trust me, baby), which is really annoying if you're the woman and you don't always want to end sex in the position that gives him the most control. All I'm saying is, I've been tolerant of this prima-donna-hood a few times, and although it's still really annoying, I haven't gotten pregnant that way, but both of the guys who've insisted on it have had exactly zero pre-come fluid at any point before orgasm.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 11:07 AM
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56: Hot water! I never heard of this before. Heating pads may also be effective.

There is always a great deal of hand-wringing about whether women could count on use of a male pill, but surely we can trust (and verify!) whether our significant others bathe.


Posted by: Amber | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 11:07 AM
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Having sex only when you're not in the mood sounds like some exotic tribal anthropological-relativism data-point.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 11:08 AM
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Seriously, it's such bullshit that there aren't contraceptive options for men.

More a problem that the ones that do exist are permanent-ish.


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 11:08 AM
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63: Can't HIV swim through the pores in lamb skin condoms?


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 11:09 AM
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The Dalcon Shield is still the army's best defense against IUDs in Iraq and Afghanistan, yet the federal government will not provide the funding to provide one to all our troops.


Posted by: Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 11:10 AM
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Vegan TVP condoms are more effective.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 11:10 AM
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56: Why stop with dumping scalding water on his balls? Crushing them with a hammer would be effective, too. At the very least, it would kill the mood for sex.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 11:10 AM
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67.2: Eh, when the day comes, I'm sure we'll adapt pretty well. It doesn't seem to pose any issues more significant than for men assessing if a women is really using the pill (correctly).


Posted by: Po-Mo Polymath | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 11:10 AM
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It doesn't seem to pose any issues more significant than for men assessing if a women is really using the pill (correctly).

This is insane. The situations aren't even remotely close to symmetric.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 11:12 AM
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Can't HIV swim through the pores in lamb skin condoms?

Only the ones that train for long-course.


Posted by: Po-Mo Polymath | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 11:12 AM
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75: Yet if men see it that way, it only ensures that they'll take the boy pill. Maybe?


Posted by: Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 11:14 AM
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So what is the truth about pulling out? Does it work or not?

I have one unplanned baby, one miscarriage, and two abortions that says not very damn well. Also says that I learn slowly, if at all.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 11:14 AM
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73: Hedy Lamarr pointed out that while sex is wonderful (she was a self-described nymphomaniac, Hollywood flavor with touches of Vienna) , no one is in the mood when they have a bad toothache.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 11:14 AM
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Having sex only when you're not in the mood sounds like some exotic tribal anthropological-relativism data-point.

Sounds like my marriage...


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 11:15 AM
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I haven't experimented with the testicle sling, but the trials performed so far say it's very effective.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 11:16 AM
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Apo, that may be a statistical fluke. You must continue the experiment until n reaches whatever number the experiment was planned for.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 11:16 AM
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66: Don't worry; thankfully, I'm not in that situation (and I don't have that kind of control -- who would want to?) It was just out of curiousity.


Posted by: Benjamin Franklin | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 11:18 AM
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82: That only works if you can control for age. Proving apo is asymptotically infertile for large "t" isn't surprising.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 11:18 AM
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If men see it that way, it only ensures that they'll take the boy pill.

You can have the best intentions in the world and you might still not take the pill reliably. Look at the studies on why women don't take the pill. I bet men would not-take it for all the same reasons -- busy, stressed, traveling, forgot to refill the prescription, can't refill the prescription, no money, disorganized, depressed, other mental illness, trying to keep the partner with them....

Soup biscuit is right in 75.


Posted by: Lurker | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 11:18 AM
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This is insane. The situations aren't even remotely close to symmetric.

The two situations are very different. But both parties also have the option for more traditional, visible barrier methods provided that they don't trust the partner's pill-taking.

Getting further into general power issues in relationships, or arguing over whether it's worse to be the guy or the girl when there's a risk of pregnancy (one having a very difficult backup choice, one not having any choice at all, everyone agrees it sucks)... Ugh, we've been there and done that.

Has been a while since a comment thread's gone to 1000 though.

On a shorter, more comity-friendly note, I think that society tends to be pretty good about finding new politeness and social convention equilibria in the case of new technology, even if it takes a generational disruption before a solution comes along.


Posted by: Po-Mo Polymath | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 11:19 AM
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80: Could I come to your village and interview you while you husk coconuts and skin rabbits? Studies of your people are incomplete.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 11:19 AM
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85: That's why I put (correctly) in quotes, since trusting that someone takes the pill properly is as big or a bigger deal than trusting that they take the pill at all. I take vitamins daily because I got in the habit during college when I might have otherwise been at legitimate risk for scurvy or some other vitamin deficiency disease, but even though I tend to be really good, I know there are a couple days that I just miss because I'm busy, out of the house, or forget to take it at lunchtime...

Doing anything at the same time each day is pretty hard.


Posted by: Po-Mo Polymath | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 11:24 AM
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86: yeah, i just meant the risk-assessment is different, so you can't factor all that stuff ou.

how about a a sub-dermal, gender non-specific, 15-year (then biodegrade) package with a status readout. Just give it to everyone when they're 10.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 11:24 AM
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And the string has been, at least for me, entirely non-irritating.

I'm not expecting any sympathy for a male POV here, but IME the string can be pretty irritating (bordering on painful) for the guy during intercourse.


Posted by: Depicted on a Banknote | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 11:24 AM
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would love to get the ol' snip-n-tuck, but can't find a doctor willing to do it

Really? When did that happen? They're simple, effective, and reversible.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 11:25 AM
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and sometimes reversible.

which is a bit of an issue for some.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 11:26 AM
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91: My understanding is that there are a number of doctors who are reluctant or outright unwilling to perform a vasectomy on young men, on men of any age without children, and on married men without the wife's consent. I don't know how widespread the problem is but I've certainly heard it from enough sources to trust that it's real.


Posted by: Lurker | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 11:28 AM
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91: I imagine he asked somewhat recently (he's only 24, so it can't have been too long ago), but I don't know if it was a super-serious search. College and law school have a way of distracting you, even with a long-term partner providing good reason for the operation.


Posted by: Po-Mo Polymath | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 11:29 AM
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91: Good point, but is it true that doctors are reluctant to do them for someone who clearly wants one?


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 11:29 AM
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95: I think it is difficult if they decide you are "too young", at least if you haven't had children already. Especially if you are unmarried.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 11:30 AM
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93: The same thing has happened to women forever. Great to see that refusing desired treatment has gone equal opportunity.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 11:31 AM
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come to think of it, the whole refusing vasectomies to younger men may be mostly litigation-aversion.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 11:32 AM
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This method has worked for me for decades.

35: you're probably sterile.

Withdrawal worked for me for the better part of 6 years with Bad Old GF, but I had to admit that I was a bit concerned about the possibility of sterility. But we each have a couple kids now, so apparently sheer disinterest was all the contraception we needed.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 11:34 AM
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93, 96: Yeah, that's pretty much what he said was the issue. Young, unmarried, no children...

I suggested just putting some sperm on ice. Maybe some doc will snip you so long as they know in the back of their minds that you've got a cumsicle in the freezer somewhere, just in case.


Posted by: Po-Mo Polymath | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 11:34 AM
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I'm not expecting any sympathy for a male POV here, but IME the string can be pretty irritating (bordering on painful) for the guy during intercourse.

Yeah, more information on this particular aspect of IUD usage would be, uh, greatly appreciated.


Posted by: Previous Pill Popper's Partner | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 11:35 AM
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in the back of their minds that you've got a cumsicle in the freezer somewhere, just in case.

Which is why you should bring it in to show them. Sticks are optional, but colorful plastic wrapping isn't.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 11:35 AM
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OT: Remember when Ben posted that "Most Wanted Song/Least Wanted Song" thing? Komar and Melamid also did "Most Wanted/Least Wanted" paintings for several countries. They're pretty funny.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 11:36 AM
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Oh my God:

[T]he Department of Health and Human Services Monday released a proposal that allows any federal grant recipient to obstruct a woman's access to contraception. In order to do this, the Department is attempting to redefine many forms of contraception, the birth control 40% of Americans use, as abortion. [...]The "Definitions" section of the HHS proposal states:

Abortion: An abortion is the termination of a pregnancy. There are two commonly held views on the question of when a pregnancy begins. Some consider a pregnancy to begin at conception (that is, the fertilization of the egg by the sperm), while others consider it to begin with implantation (when the embryo implants in the lining of the uterus). A 2001 Zogby International American Values poll revealed that 49% of Americans believe that human life begins at conception. Presumably many who hold this belief think that any action that destroys human life after conception is the termination of a pregnancy, and so would be included in their definition of the term "abortion." Those who believe pregnancy begins at implantation believe the term "abortion" only includes the destruction of a human being after it has implanted in the lining of the uterus.

The proposal continues,

Both definitions of pregnancy inform medical practice. Some medical authorities, like the American Medical Association and the British Medical Association, have defined the term "established pregnancy" as occurring after implantation. Other medical authorities present different definitions. Stedman's Medical Dictionary, for example, defines pregnancy as "[t]he state of a female after conception and until the termination of the gestation." Dorland's Medical Dictionary defines pregnancy, in relevant part, as "the condition of having a developing embryo or fetus in the body, after union of an oocyte and spermatozoon.

Amy I dreaming or has the US government just attempted to on-the-one-hand on-on-the-other with polling data versus the AMA?


Posted by: Lurker | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 11:38 AM
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A vasectomy can be easily performed by pretty much anyone. All that is needed is a length of coathanger wire, a blowtorch, and a pliers.

Auto-vasectomy is not recommended because some discomfort is experienced.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 11:39 AM
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on-the-one-hand on-on-the-other with polling data versus the AMA?

people wonder why I talk about leaving.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 11:40 AM
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i've read somewhere that pampers' overuse leads to the male infertility in later life


Posted by: read | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 11:40 AM
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105 holds exactly as written, save for replacing "vasectomy" with "lobotomy"


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 11:41 AM
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107: what exactly does `overuse' mean in this context: to many individual items used, or too few?


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 11:42 AM
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109: too many at once, covering too many parts of the body.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 11:43 AM
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OT: Remember when Ben posted that "Most Wanted Song/Least Wanted Song" thing? Komar and Melamid also did "Most Wanted/Least Wanted" paintings for several countries. They're pretty funny.

It's a nice touch that Holland is pretty much the reverse of everywhere else.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 11:44 AM
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Komar and Melamid are fun but I suspect extensive doctoring of the data.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 11:45 AM
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109: I think it means if you continue to wear pampers past the age of sexual maturity, you're unlikely to knock someone up.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 11:45 AM
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111: Italy's Least Wanted is my favorite.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 11:46 AM
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Polyurethane condoms are better than latex. I used them for years--I had a bad reaction to the pill the first time, was a wuss about trying different formulations, and based on pregnancy progesterone isn't my friend. Though, no condoms are best, of course. We're planning to have two kids--I'm leaning towards diaphragm in between & either an IUD or an operation (probably his) after, I think.

On nonoxynol: I found that foam stuff irritating, called planned parenthood--they said that VCF has the least nonoxynol by weight of the widely available OTC methods. There's also some weird "bioadhesive" gel I used to use that goes where it needs to better & has a lower % as a result, but I don't think they make it in the U.S. anymore. But I wouldn't count on either by itself, they were supplements to a condom.

I'd imagine a male pill would be most useful for long-term couples where the risks are more evenly shared & you know someone well enough to rely on--I'd certainly be psyched if one existed & worked for my husband.


Posted by: Katherine | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 11:47 AM
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So, how does the Mineshaft staunch the flow of babies?

Vasectomy. I know that is not very helpful in this case, but you did ask the question.

I will point out that a visit to old sparky does hurt. A needle to the nads feels surprisingly like a tennis ball to the nads. Who'd a thunk it? Plus there is the added benefit of knowing you'll get the second needle on the other side. Great. Something to look forward to. And, in my humble experience, it seemed to take about a year's worth of sex to wring all the wigglers out of the system, so condoms were still required. YMMV I am sure.

Remember, the only minor surgery is surgery happening to someone else.

Disclaimer: Yeah, I know, V is much safer and simpler than H, and it makes sense, and that is why I chose it, but I still like to eek out a tiny bit of sympathy whenever I can.


Posted by: Tripp | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 11:48 AM
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people wonder why I talk about leaving

Not me. I just wonder if you'll get me a Canadian green card.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 11:48 AM
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Katherine,

I'd imagine a male pill

Hey, yeah, I have heard of a male pill, developed in China I think, made from some chemical from cotton(?).

Yeah, the guy sticks it in the heel of his shoe.

It makes him limp.


Posted by: Tripp | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 11:50 AM
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109
to many individual items used and for prolonged period like until 2-3-4-5 yo, there are studies on that, linking infertility to the elevated temps in the pampers
the potty training as early as possible is preventive
and just regular washable diapers maybe


Posted by: read | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 11:50 AM
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I'm not expecting any sympathy for a male POV here, but IME the string can be pretty irritating (bordering on painful) for the guy during intercourse.

You underestimate us.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 11:51 AM
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My husband never reported any awareness of Mirena IUD string, I could always feel it myself when I checked on placement though. Ideal. It was the perfect birth control product for me until a fertilized egg, having determined the IUD made my uterus too hostile, implanted itself in a fallopian tube.

NuvaRing made me barf.


Posted by: Sybil Vane | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 11:52 AM
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wanted italics there, forgot


Posted by: read | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 11:53 AM
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I stopped using the pill due to elevated blood pressure in my late 30's.

I tried an IUD, which came out during my next cycle along with more blood than I've ever seen. Heavy period doesn't even begin to describe it. I soaked through a tampon and a pad walking to the drugstore to buy more tampons and pads.

I am now using the progestin-only pill. It's supposed to be less effective, but at my age I am probably infertile anyway. My periods are light and infrequent and my blood pressure is acceptable.


Posted by: Shamhat | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 11:53 AM
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For that matter, NuvaRings tend to be [*] "irritating (bordering on painful)" but that's easily sorted out.

[*]somewhat position dependent, ymmv, not valid in all states


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 11:55 AM
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I should also note that he Mirena IUD completely stopped my periods: bonus! Until I was 7 weeks ectopically pregnant and had had no reason to suspect as much. Detraction.


Posted by: Sybil Vane | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 11:56 AM
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Sybil,

It was the perfect birth control product for me until a fertilized egg, having determined the IUD made my uterus too hostile, implanted itself in a fallopian tube.

The exact same thing happened to this couple I knew. Except the IUD was the man's drinking and the uterus was the woman and the fallopian tube was another woman.

Otherwise, though, exactly the same story. Eerie.


Posted by: Tripp | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 11:57 AM
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Sybil, your birth control stories are scary. What do you use now, condoms?


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 11:58 AM
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n= 1, no string problems.


Posted by: Amber | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 11:58 AM
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118: It called Gossypol. Looks like they've stopped testing, because of permanent infertility.


Posted by: Klug | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 12:00 PM
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||

Who knew that all it would take to turn the entire mass media into Standpipe's blog was a little New Yorker cover?

|>


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 12:00 PM
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Message to guys and docs not wanting to have/perform vasectomies: Your own genetic material is way overrated (or if you really are hung up on it do a donation per someone upthread). I mean if there is one goddamn thing I this world that is not a scarce resource it is male sperm.

I know I'm swimming upstream against the veldt on this one....


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 12:00 PM
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I'm back to the pill, which is what I was on when I conceived my daughter 4 yrs ago. I had fucked it up a smidge then, missed a day I think, but had at that point been on it for 10 yrs, so one wouldn't ave expected a small fuckup to matter. But it did, apparently. Sow I am sort of maniacal about taking it on time. And also avoiding sex when I think I might be ovulating. I really spend an extraordinary amount of time worrying about getting pregnant.


Posted by: Sybil Vane | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 12:01 PM
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131: I wrote a very similar comment and deleted it. Thanks, JP.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 12:03 PM
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on-the-one-hand on-on-the-other with polling data anecdotal evidence versus the AMA?

If it's good enough for Congress and SCOTUS...


Posted by: babble | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 12:05 PM
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The situations aren't even remotely close to symmetric.

I was thinking aside from all the trust implications, it's just a numbers game. The ovum is released fairly predictably, and the pill takes advance of a process that's already cyclic.

Not only is there no comparable cycle, instead of 12 eggs per year, we're talking, what, a zillion sperm per ejaculation?


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 12:05 PM
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124: We didn't have that problem with the NuvaRing, but I found that getting the little ring to stay where it was put was not as easy as the little pamphlets made it sound.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 12:08 PM
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I know I'm swimming upstream against the veldt on this one....

Quite sensible of you. I do sort of wonder why physicians are so reluctant, if they are. I'll have to remember to ask.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 12:08 PM
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136: I've noted it for N>1, so it may be me. I suspect internal geometry has a lot to do with how easily it stays put.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 12:09 PM
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135: However, sperm are a lot easier to disable. Eggs are pretty hardy and, as Sybil notes, will plonk down just about anywhere to get their baby on. Plus, it would be impossible for our creepy right-wing misogynist government to cry abortion when there's no fertilization to begin with. Generally speaking, it should be a lot easier to fuck up some sperm than to manage eggs (which is really about managing the entire uterine system).


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 12:10 PM
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131: I wrote a very similar comment and deleted it. Thanks, JP.

I bet AWB's was snarkier.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 12:11 PM
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IUD. I know lots of ladiez who like it.

Plus, doesn't it cost approx $10.00???


Posted by: Will | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 12:11 PM
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129: "Gossypol" sounds like a branch of the Secret Police".

As I understand, gossypol also causes a significant number of fatalities, but since the Chinese leadership are act utilitarians and population reduction is the goal, YAY!!!


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 12:11 PM
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here, though they say it's controversial
and there is no the long-term studies yet
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=117939


Posted by: read | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 12:14 PM
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There are doctors who won't perform a vasectomy because the dude is "too young"?! Do these doctors not like money? Jeeze, I'd figure if capitalism was good for anything it was good for subverting people's moralities in favor of the dollar, but apparently that just works for businesspeople and hired killers.

Re: male pill. I would count on men to be less responsible than women (as a general rule, I suppose), but there are men out there that already have to take a pill, once a day, at roughly the same time (I'm thinking of propecia, but there are probably others too). Also, as mentioned, vitamins and such.


Posted by: Currence | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 12:15 PM
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139: I think it's not so much the fucking-up as the reverse-fucking-up, as someone pointed out upthread. Plus, they're fragile, but they're being replenished all the time.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 12:16 PM
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140: Well, it did acknowledge the fact that women endure pretty much constant risk of bullshit (barfing, craziness, extreme pain, violent bleeding, ectopic pregnancy, abortion) and then we have to hear complaints about how our NuvaRings make sex unperfect, IUD strings make sex unperfect, our bad attitude makes sex unperfect, our violent bleeding makes sex unperfect. I realize a vasectomy isn't exactly like eating ice cream on a ferris wheel, but the alternatives are apparently a big fucking downer for everyone.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 12:16 PM
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Generally speaking, it should be a lot easier to fuck up some sperm than to manage eggs (which is really about managing the entire uterine system).

Although recall that recent research indicates that sperm aren't fungible - different sperm perform different functions once ejaculated. I wonder if the path to a successful male pill is to trick the balls into making nothing but the Blocker sperm (the ones that try to prevent anyone else's sperm from reaching the egg; they're not even trying to fertilize.

I may be misunderstanding the science to the point where what I just said was nonsense, but that sort of intervention seems more plausible than trying to render 100% ineffective millions of spermatzoa per.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 12:16 PM
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Quite sensible of you. I do sort of wonder why physicians are so reluctant, if they are. I'll have to remember to ask.

In my experience the female urologist was quite eager to hack away at my wedding tackle. I had no idea who was doing the deed until she entered the room.

I do know, even after 3 kids and me in my late 30's and my wife pregnant they refused the operation until our last child was born. I could imagine they were afraid if something terrible happened I'd regret the vasectomy.

Nothing terrible happened and I don't regret it.

I think maybe with much younger childless people, male or female, they'd be reluctant to perform sterilization, but I never tried it then.


Posted by: Tripp | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 12:16 PM
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140: I bet AWB's was snarkier.

Yeah, I'm a kinder, gentler AWB but without any of the good stories.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 12:17 PM
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I realize unperfect isn't a word. I mean it, though.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 12:17 PM
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I'm going to invent a sperm-powered car and make millions.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 12:18 PM
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86: I've got a fun extra twist to add to that one. Try waiting 9 months to find out if the baby's yours or the ex-boyfriend she cheated on you with. You get extra points if you are trying to start a new relationship.

I am very sympathetic to the concerns women have in these situations. But it's pretty much the case that at least one person, and frequently two, are getting a bad deal in these situations. Both parties have ample motivation to know that birth control methods are in effect.


Posted by: mpowell | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 12:18 PM
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151: It'd stop overpopulation AND global warming -- amazing!


Posted by: Klug | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 12:19 PM
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Jroth,

Blocker sperm (the ones that try to prevent anyone else's sperm from reaching the egg; they're not even trying to fertilize.

Not to get too technical here but the blocker sperms are the ones trying to move the defensive sperm out of the way so the ball-carrying sperm can score.

So I think you are advocating a team of only defensive sperm but even then you'd have the problem of them trying to carry guns on planes and other really stupid stuff. Plus sometimes they might recover a fumble and you'd really have a mess.


Posted by: Tripp | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 12:20 PM
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the alternatives are a big fucking downer for everyone

I thought you liked buttsex?


Posted by: KR | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 12:23 PM
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mpowell,

find out if the baby's yours

Ouch. I know for a FACT that my brother-in-law's (my wife's sister's husband) first child is from another man and I'm almost positive that he does not know. Sadly his wife's family all know. What a family secret.


Posted by: Tripp | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 12:24 PM
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are


Posted by: read | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 12:24 PM
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155: Variety. I like variety.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 12:24 PM
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but the alternatives are apparently a big fucking downer for everyone.

Life..... is suffering ( suffering )


seriously, though? more vasectomies would be an unambiguous good, failing other male methods.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 12:25 PM
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158: I dunno I find it kind of insider-y if you don't work in the biz, and their online options are kind of skimpy even with a subscription.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 12:27 PM
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Lani Guinier proposed a completely painless, 100% effective form of male contraception, one which was already popular in the male community, but did she get credit for her discovery?

Not at all. She was scorned and forced to resign.

"Back to the blowtorch and pliers!" said Bil and Hillary.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 12:27 PM
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also, AWB, in case it wasn't obvious 124 wasn't in any way meant as a complaint. They're great (if they work for you), even if sometimes a bit like playing ringtoss or whatever.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 12:28 PM
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159 was marginally more amusing when the fake html markup hadn't been eaten.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 12:29 PM
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I'm going to invent a sperm-powered car and make millions.

I've already invented a sperm "laser" for rocket propulsion but the cleanup is awful.


Posted by: Tripp | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 12:29 PM
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See, the prejudice against wankers thrust us back into the blowtorch and pliers era. I blame the Brits, especially the Welsh.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 12:31 PM
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161: Wasn't that Jocelyn Elders?


Posted by: Klug | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 12:32 PM
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161: Wasn't that Jocelyn Elders?

I was thinking Lorena Bobbit but I didn't think that was exactly popular beforehand.


Posted by: Tripp | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 12:33 PM
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I got vasectomised earlier this year and, contrary to what Tripp says, it's no big deal. The needle in the nutsack doesn't really hurt a whole lot and the only slightly nauseating discomfort came from some tube pulling that the anaesthesia didn't cover. MUCH less big a deal than the equivalent for a woman. No whining, man!

Here in the UK, there doesn't seem to be a problem with being young or childless. OK, I'm 36, which is stretching the definition of "young", but we don't have any kids. We went with Marie Stopes who do a lot of good stuff apart from on-demand bollock-chopping.

And my surgeon was a middle-aged Egyptian woman, for what it's worth.


Posted by: buttersideup | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 12:33 PM
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Wasn't that Jocelyn Elders?

Right. She was the one who wanted public schools to teach masturbation. Lani Guinier was the one who wanted to introduce quotas for masturbators.


Posted by: KR | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 12:35 PM
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Wait, so the US is both full of wankers and has a masturbation gap? The mind boggles.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 12:36 PM
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162: I know, soup, and I didn't mean to implicate you directly. I've never used the Ring or an IUD, but I have really deeply felt this weird sense that anything I do to protect myself and my partners from pregnancy has resulted in not only unreasonable anxiety/pain/distress on my end, but also complaints about the less-fun sex that results from guys. It makes it really tempting to go along with the pull-out line of action just because, although it's less effective, it's also less irritating/painful for both of us.

And the problem is, the whole language around birth control from the health-care providers I've seen is that there's this wonderful smorgasboard of choices, all equally wonderful, to be used in multiple combinations (pill plus IUD plus condom plus spermicide plus rhythm!), that make life simple, easy, and fun, and it's such a miracle to be alive today. All of the ones I've tried totally suck.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 12:38 PM
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156: Wow. I'm pretty sure that if I were in your shoes I would find family functions where he was present pretty awkward.


Posted by: mpowell | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 12:39 PM
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156, 172: What a family secret.

Is there family name Buendia?


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 12:42 PM
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Re: male pill. I would count on men to be less responsible than women

It seems to me the point isn't who would be more responsible but that each person could bear his/her own responsibility. If guys have an oral contraceptive, it doesn't preclude me from using one as well -- and vice versa.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 12:43 PM
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Tripp, it's probably a different situation, but I knew a family with a similar `secret', but later it turned out he had known for years (but didn't hold it against the kid).


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 12:44 PM
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Wasn't that Jocelyn Elders?

"Joycelyn", actually. Make what you will of the extra Y.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 12:45 PM
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I know a family of which the mother informed the father during divorce proceedings that the oldest son (well past 20 by then) was not his. Trauma ensued, including for the younger kids.

Another family has kids by two different fathers, who happened to be brothers. The wife was living with the inlaws while the first father was in the army and drinking up the checks. Trauma ensued in this case too.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 12:48 PM
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My apologies to Lani. Black ladies shit on by Bill Clinton all look the same to me.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 12:49 PM
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We didn't have that problem with the NuvaRing, but I found that getting the little ring to stay where it was put was not as easy as the little pamphlets made it sound.

Plus, it might be embarassing when the neighbors are over for dinner and find the ring next to the dining room table.


Posted by: Will | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 12:50 PM
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82 is funny, but from an unexpected source. John, are you secretly a statistician, and every other personal comment you've made been a lie?

There was a Live Journal written by a crazy woman. She deleted it right around the time she dumped her boyfriend because he wouldn't allow her to do a vasectomy at home.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 12:52 PM
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You know, Joycelyn Elders could seriously rock her uniform, too.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 12:52 PM
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Blame the help. "Oh, darn! Velma drops NuvaRings the way she drops silverware! But we still love her."


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 12:53 PM
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"Oh, darn! Velma drops NuvaRings the way she drops silverware! But we still love her."

"You better, Senator McCain! I'm bearing your secret black baby!"


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 12:55 PM
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180: I as thinking about Gregor Mendel, whose n was the point at which he got the results he wanted. A valid experiment would have given the same results, but he cheated.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 12:55 PM
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OT: This is pretty hilarious.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 12:57 PM
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Gossypol is one messed up chemical. We do experiments with it and see effects in just about every system. Do not eat it.

Plus, it might be embarassing when the neighbors are over for dinner and find the ring next to the dining room table.
Are you using them as napkin rings or something?


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 1:00 PM
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My girlfriend and I switched from relying on condoms to nuvaring at about year 4 of our relationship. She had previously been made nuts by a couple of Pill variations, but nuvaring didn't have that effect. I think that's a general pattern, not just an ideosyncratic difference; nuvaring's delivery mechanism is more reliable, so the dosing can be lower (The opposite is true for the patch - variation in transdermal absorbtion is large, so the dose has to be really high to ensure an effective dose in most users, thus they get a much higher dose than they would with pills, and thus worse side effects),and the constant 24/7 delivery avoids daily spikes of hormones. Also, it seems that the effect where antibiotics neutralize BC are pill-specific, having to do with absorbtion in the GI tract, rather than anything in the bloodstream, so the ring has an advantage there.

I can notice it in her if I check carefully, but not otherwise; it has a lot to do with the specific body shapes and geometries involved. That said, regular checking is a good idea, because it can go missing and not be noticed for days or weeks, with the obvious resulting problems.


Posted by: dude | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 1:01 PM
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Your own genetic material is way overrated...

Speak for yourself. If anything, my genetic material is underrated.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 1:04 PM
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My genetic material is rated NC-1/2+7


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 1:06 PM
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My genetic material is rated D by Standard & Poor's.

("has defaulted on obligations and S&P believes that it will generally default on most or all obligations")


Posted by: buttersideup | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 1:08 PM
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I can notice it in her if I check carefully, but not otherwise; it has a lot to do with the specific body shapes and geometries involved. That said, regular checking is a good idea, because it can go missing and not be noticed for days or weeks, with the obvious resulting problems.

BR's went missing on Father's day for a couple minutes.


Posted by: Will | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 1:11 PM
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190: Does S&P have an "F" rating? I'm trying to imagine what it would be. "S&P has been informed by management that a firm decision has been made to default on every obligation whatsoever, without exception, regardless of consequences"?


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 1:16 PM
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192: "has expressed an ongoing and fervent desire to immediately blow any debt incurred on hookers and blow, and then skip town"


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 1:18 PM
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If anything, my genetic material is underrated.

Seriously. I make *beautiful* children. And if I won the lottery tomorrow, I'd start cranking babies out one after the other.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 1:18 PM
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And if I won the lottery tomorrow, I'd start cranking babies out one after the other.

So they could battle to the death over their inheritance, leaving only a few select superbabies to seed the next generation. Genius.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 1:19 PM
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195: Genghis Khan had 800 wives and a proportionate number of children. Many of his descendants were similarly fixed. His descendants are a global demographic even today. It is vain of Apo to aspire to this, even in fantasy.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 1:22 PM
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Apo Khan has a certain ring to it.


Posted by: buttersideup | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 1:24 PM
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193: Shit, if that's all it takes, I'm amazed any CFO can make it past the interviews to get an investment-grade rating.


Posted by: Po-Mo Polymath | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 1:28 PM
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"has fallen asleep several times in the 10 minutes S&P has been trying to do due diligence, smells like pee, and semi-intelligible grunting may consist of demands for PCP and a blowjob"


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 1:32 PM
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199 has to get a "W" rating, surely?


Posted by: buttersideup | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 1:34 PM
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199: Yeah... I'll admit that I rejigger my assumptions to get a "sell" rating after an interview like that.

I was assured by the investor relations people that his capital allocation skills were top-notch, but when I noticed the pot grindings on his contract for the convertible debt issue was all stems and seeds, so I figured his bonus was terrible. You see, it's detail-oriented thinking like this that gives you the edge in this wild capital market.


Posted by: Po-Mo Polymath | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 1:37 PM
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And my grammar in 201 proves that I'm no better than the mumbling bum CFO. Oh snap.


Posted by: Po-Mo Polymath | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 1:41 PM
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Hey, radio-controlled sperm taps!


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 1:43 PM
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202: that's cool, it's the weed. I understand.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 1:43 PM
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203: hack a baby!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 1:44 PM
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179: Dude, it's not like it was evolving little NuvaLegs or anything.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 1:48 PM
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This evening we have North Carolinian Apostropher on tap... laydeez.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 1:49 PM
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Dude, it's not like it was evolving little NuvaLegs or anything.

Aren't you in your middle to young twenties??!?!


Posted by: Will | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 1:51 PM
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The "Dude" was what gave your youth away.


Posted by: Will | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 1:52 PM
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I think I have to say late 20s now, because there aren't any more twenties after this one.

Still.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 1:54 PM
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That reminds me that I'm turning 29 in less than two months. Neat!


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 1:55 PM
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Still.

The NuvaRing should be having the opportunity to go sailing away in the kitchen, the dining room, the backyard, etc.

Don't make the NuvaRing lead a boring life.


Posted by: Will | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 1:56 PM
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208: Wait, so you're telling me older people are too sensible to bang on the kitchen counter?!

Crap, if I've only got a ten-year window for semi-uncomfortable, this-seemed-like-a-great-idea-ten-minutes-ago sex, I gotta work on that.


Posted by: Po-Mo Polymath | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 1:58 PM
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213: Apparently you get those desires back in your 40's.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 2:00 PM
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If only I had a kitchen counter. My kitchen is not big enough for two people stand in. There would be accidents.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 2:01 PM
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214: Mid-30's, really.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 2:01 PM
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215: Last time I nearly set us both on fire. It was a close call. Floor's safer.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 2:03 PM
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217: "It's just a cold, hard, Mexican ceramic tile."


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 2:05 PM
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Last time I nearly set us both on fire.

That is why this should be done, if at all, before or after you cook. Spilling hot oil and onions all over your partner's delicate bits while you try to stir fry is acceptable only to a surprisingly small minority.


Posted by: OneFatEnglishman | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 2:16 PM
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Mid-30's, really.

I dont know how many times that I have to say this:

Don't date anyone until they are 35. Stay away from those crazy 25 to 34year olds!


Posted by: Will | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 2:17 PM
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215- If it can be done in an MRI, it can be done in your kitchen.
219- But it's an effective form of contraception!


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 2:18 PM
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Avoid jalapeno peppers.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 2:19 PM
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All of this "Avoid this!" and "Cant do it there!" is making me question whether Cala is really a newlywed.


Posted by: Will | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 2:21 PM
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The "Dude" was what gave your youth away.

I know it's just rubbing it in at this point, but it was seriously unwise to let a pothead rapper hold your youth for you. Something like this was bound to happen.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 2:27 PM
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174: yeah, that makes the most sense. I was thinking that the male-pill mightn't be the best contraceptive substitute for the female-pill, if it were the only game in town.


Posted by: Currence | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 2:28 PM
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I'm almost not any more.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 2:28 PM
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I was trying to throw you a softball bc you cannot say don't do it unless you have tried it.


Posted by: Will | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 2:37 PM
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Wait, so you're telling me older people are too sensible to bang on the kitchen counter?!

There's no truth to this whatsoever. Carry on.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 2:38 PM
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older people are too sensible to bang on the kitchen counter

Sensible s/b fragile.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 2:40 PM
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Wait, so you're telling me older people are too sensible to bang on the kitchen counter?!

Do you people who bang on the kitchen counter not have windows in your kitchen?


Posted by: mrh | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 2:41 PM
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Do you people who bang on the kitchen counter not have windows in your kitchen?

What, are you ashamed of your appearance or something?


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 2:45 PM
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My three year old somehow managed to get poop on the windowsill using the potty on his own.

My five year old has a knack for knowing the most annoying time to try to tickle me.

Right now I think my vasectomy was the best decision I have made in my life.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 2:47 PM
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My three year old ...My five year old ... Right now I think my vasectomy was the best decision I have made in my life.

I didn't know they worked retroactively. Wow!


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 2:49 PM
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OT: This is some fucked-up shit right here.


Posted by: strasmangelo jones | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 2:54 PM
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sociopathy not just for the young anymore!


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 2:55 PM
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My five year old has a knack for knowing the most annoying time to try to tickle me.

That would be when you're banging Mrs. Helpy-Chalk on the kitchen counter, I presume.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 2:55 PM
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That would be when you're banging Mrs. Helpy-Chalk on the kitchen counter, I presume.

Only after he wipes the poop off.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 2:56 PM
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Don't judge, Sifu.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 3:05 PM
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Mrs. Helpy-Chalk is a grown woman, Tweety. I'm sure she wipes her own poop off.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 3:05 PM
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Reading the thread backwards, I assumed you all were talking about how kids might bang their fists on the counter top, out of enthusiasm or something.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 3:06 PM
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I assumed you all were talking about how kids might bang their fists on the counter top

This happens, but it rarely produces a nuvaring.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 3:07 PM
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Do you people who bang on the kitchen counter not have windows in your kitchen?

Of course we do!

What are you, some kind of perv who goes looking into people's kitchen windows!?!?!? The nerve!


Posted by: Will | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 3:09 PM
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Where is Stanley???

Why isnt he contributing to the NuvaRing discussion?


Posted by: Will | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 3:09 PM
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"Helpy Jr., I am not going to bang your mom for you until you wipe the poop off the countertop".

Rob practices toughlove.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 3:12 PM
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234: It's a pretty awesome story that has gone underGged. Dana Goodyear blogged it for the New Yorker.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 3:43 PM
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May I say that that story puts some flesh in Read's worries about the moral hazard of insurance?


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 3:50 PM
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You may, sir.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 4:05 PM
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Not bothering to read previous comments, I love love love my Mirena IUD (and I'm only 26!). It can be removed before the 5 years are up and the teensy bit of discomfort going in and out is totally worth it for 5 years of permanently installed baby-away. I was trying different methods for a while and thought I was going to lose my mind on the Depo shot (with the pill working itself out of my bloodstream at the same time after 7 years of usage; Depo is also what they use in males for chemical castration so....that's fun) but Mirena = less hormones, less crazy.


Posted by: cheerylilgoth | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 4:31 PM
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Thanks for the info, all!

One more question for the ex-Pill poppers: How long did it take for the Pill to get out of your system? I've been on the Pill close to 20 years, so I don't know what my underlying natural cycle is like any more. Before having an IUD put in, I want to have a baseline so I can tell if things go wrong. How long should I wait?



Posted by: Previous Pill Popper | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 5:01 PM
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I didn't wait (I'm an impatient person, plus the doctor suggested I get on the shot right away as I knew I wanted off the pill) but I would say that it took about 3 months for the pill to work itself out of my system. Then again, I had Depo working on me at the same time so YMMV.


Posted by: cheerylilgoth | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 5:07 PM
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249: I was back to normal the next cycle. I think a few months is typical.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 5:32 PM
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A previous pill popper pops the pregunta about preventing the preggers:

I love you, heebie.


Posted by: Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 7:27 PM
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I'm going to invent a sperm-powered car and make millions.

Of sperm.


Posted by: Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 7:28 PM
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My wife took somewhere around 6 months to get back to normal, although normal for her wasn't very regular anyway. But after she stopped she didn't have any period for 3 months and had to have it induced, then the same thing happened again, then a long cycle (2 months) that ended on its own, then a regular cycle (for her, ~40 days) then pregnant the next cycle.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 8:37 PM
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The returns on establishing a normal cycle may not be that great. Either you'll find the side effects of an IUD tolerable or not . . . there's little point in taunting yourself with the knowledge of how things could be a little lighter if you're okay with the pros and cons of the new method. (And in the meantime, what method will you use?) If something is wrong, you'll probably find out when you expel the device or start running a fever.


Posted by: Amber | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 8:46 PM
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An induced period? Is that some kind of Catholic thing?


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 8:48 PM
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255: It's been so long since I have had a non-Pill-influenced period that I've lost touch with what's normal for my body. Will I go back to the short-period, 35-day cycle I had when I was a teenager? No clue. I want to get reacquainted with that before I throw any more factors in there. At the very least I need to know how long my new normal cycle will be so I can look out for an accidental pregnancy. (We'd use condoms in the meantime; I'm fine with that short-term but they'd be kind of a drag long-term.)


Posted by: Previous Pill Popper | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 10:10 PM
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257: I don't speak from experience, but given your age and the length of time you've been taking the pill, if I were you (I'm close enough to your age), I'd give it six months before moving to an IUD.

Since you don't know what your normal cycle is, if you even have such a thing after that length of time on the pill, really, give it some time. Also realize that your cycle changes as you approach your 40s; it becomes more erratic. Let it all sort itself out before taking new steps.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 10:32 PM
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How did AWB's link in 185 get no love? See it, people! It's brilliant!


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 11:41 PM
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It is kind of brilliant.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 07-16-08 11:53 PM
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To be honest, having my Mirena put in hurt more than giving birth to a 9 or 10 lb baby. But the recovery was better. I hated getting it, but have to admit that it works very well - no periods. Occasionally (about every 6 weeks or less) I'll feel a bit pre-menstrual and have a tiny bit of spotting, like for an afternoon. However, I don't think I'll be able to bring myself to have another one - although, like birth, the memory is fading, and the prospect already seems less awful. But I'd really rather C had a vasectomy.

And talk of vasectomies reminded me of gswift - did he get in to the police then, is that why he's not been around for a while? (Or have I just missed him, being a bit sporadic recently myself?)


Posted by: asilon | Link to this comment | 07-17-08 1:04 AM
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I was back to normal the next cycle. I think a few months is typical.
I was back to normal fairly quickly too, except for one side-effect - over about a 18 month span, my boobs shrank a bit (in retrospect, they had got a bit bigger over time when I started taking the Pill). The same thing happened my mother when she came off HRT.


Posted by: emir | Link to this comment | 07-17-08 4:50 AM
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I haven't seen gswift in a while. I may send him a quick e-mail to ask him how he's doing.


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 07-17-08 5:18 AM
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Gswift is in police training - he dropped by the other day with some funny stories they'd told him about things not to do (like shoot yourself in the leg, or have sex with someone you arrested yesterday for DUI.) I assume he'll post pictures once he's grown the required police moustache.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 07-17-08 5:38 AM
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I'm going to invent a sperm-powered car and make millions.

With a Wankel engine?


Posted by: OneFatEnglishman | Link to this comment | 07-17-08 5:59 AM
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264: DO you have a link, LB? APo, where are you when I need your mad search skillz?


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 07-17-08 6:03 AM
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Thanks for your help, everyone. I'm going off the Pill at the end of the next pack (which will give me time to consult the doctor, ask her about Paragard and find out if the anatomical quirks that make other barrier methods so problematic for me are likely to make an IUD difficult as well). Then it's off to our local safer-sex emporium to find a spermicide that doesn't hurt my lady parts.

I feel SO MUCH BETTER about all this now. Thank you, thank you, thank you. The Mineshaft roolz.


Posted by: Previous Pill Popper | Link to this comment | 07-17-08 9:17 AM
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Oh, I meant to post this earlier: Liveblog of a vasectomy.


Posted by: Nathan Williams | Link to this comment | 07-17-08 9:21 AM
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other


Posted by: Previous Pill Popper | Link to this comment | 07-17-08 9:49 AM
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spermicide that doesn't hurt my lady parts

Don't bother with Coke. It *adds* life.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 07-17-08 9:54 AM
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I'm a late twenties hypertensive and can't use estrogen based contraceptives now. (To my great surprise I discovered that sometimes genetics trumps everything except totally giving up salt and so you can be female, otherwise healthy, young, fit, and still be hypertensive. People should tell people this shit.)

I'm having trouble deciding what to do now. Basically the choices my doctor has discussed so far are:
1. mini-pill, which she doesn't like because she believes it is unreliable
2. Implanon, because I enjoy having a libido
3. IUD, which I will probably do eventually but don't want to have inserted only to have it pulled out again in 6 months when I TTC.
4. Condoms. All doctors strongly in favour. Condoms: great!

Except... for the bit where there are some recent findings that pre-eclampsia is more likely in women not regularly exposed to the future father's semen. And it's also much more common in hypertensive women. No solution yet. The land ofr no estrogen and no barriers arise pretty hard to find contraception in.

So Previous Pill Popper... I don't know. More choices please, universe!


Posted by: Pineapple | Link to this comment | 07-17-08 11:31 PM
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More choices please, universe!

There's always buttsex.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 07-18-08 12:14 AM
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Always and forever, butt sex.


Posted by: Pineapple | Link to this comment | 07-18-08 12:41 AM
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... I do sort of wonder why physicians are so reluctant, if they are.

I've heard it's because there have been a number of court cases that have gone against doctors who successfully performed a sterilisation when, some time later, another physician was unable to reverse it.


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 07-18-08 1:08 AM
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a spermicide that doesn't hurt my lady parts.

Most spermicides bug me, but VCF doesn't. Plus it's handy as hell. For what it's worth. (Just don't mistakenly buy their other product, "vaginal *cleansing* film," which is not only a nasty idea but also a real pisser when you open up the package and realize your mistake.)

271: I've used the progestin-only pill for YEARS now, b/c I learned I can't tolerate estrogen when I was 17 and first started the pill. It's reliable. It's less reliable than mixed pills, and depending on your own body, obvs., it might be more or less important that you take the pill at exactly the same time every day. I don't, and it works for me anyway. But obviously ymmv. I also am a big proponent of Norplant, which is progestin-only; I guess the equivalent these days is Implanon, which you say reduces your libido (but the regular pill doesn't??).


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 07-18-08 1:10 AM
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275: The regular pill also messes with my libido, as I have discovered coming off hormonal contraception for the first time since my teens. (As did Nuvaring, but to a lesser extent.) Now that I have it, I'd like to keep it all other things being equal, but it might be compromisable.

I really, really sucked at remembering to take the pill at all, let alone at the same time. Six blessed months of Nuvaring and less stress around sex, but now I can't use that either (and BP meds, of course, are taken at least daily anyway, so that was a nice holiday from adult life I guess).

Implanon might be the best of the bunch.


Posted by: Pineapple | Link to this comment | 07-18-08 1:17 AM
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if anyone is still reading this thread, I have a related question. My periods are from hell, and I've long been incredibly jealous of my het women friend's ability to skip for purposes of conferences, etc. [it's weird thing when the only woman at a conference with tampons is me...] So I'm really tempted to get on some version of the pill--and the fewer periods the better. But I'm also susceptible to depression, and live in terror of it screwing with me that way. Obviously effectiveness in preventing conception not so much an issue for me, but lack of periods and lack of depression would be good. advice? thoughts? (am now living in small town with at best mediocre doctors, so would prefer to walk in knowing what I want)


Posted by: academic lesbian | Link to this comment | 07-19-08 1:15 AM
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