I'm not sure what a Unitarian rumspringga would have entailed anyway
Hanging out on an Amish farm, of course, or an Orthodox kibbutz.
Would you cheat on the bullshit rules if you were a member of some super religious sect that you mostly enjoyed being a part of?
Let's see a show of hands, Catholics.
I'm not sure what a Unitarian rumspringga would have entailed anyway
Joining the College Republicans.
Rumspringa really, really sounds like it should be the name of a ground-breaking rap album from 1993.
Oh, hm, the issue of Catholics makes me think I picked the wrong adjective when I said "bullshit".
I guess I mean "negligible rules", because while virginity as a virtue and no abortions are bullshit rules, they're not negligible. I was thinking more like "wearing a 4-cornered garment" and not eating traife meat. Little stuff that crops up ten times a day.
4: Because you're thinking of Rumpshaker?
4: That was Rumpspringa, and it came out in '91.
And the traife meat thing reminds me of John Waters' great Puff Piece wherein he's praying and thanking God for all these things but especially for making him Catholic and gay because sex is so much better when it's bad for you.
Joining the College Republicans
No, I think that'd be the analogue to the Mormon mission, if Unitarians prostyletized, which we don't need to do, because we've got the universal search for truth *and* stand mixers. And sometimes sangria.
So would you all return to the Amish church after you grew weary of you meth-lab partying on an 8th grade education days? Or would you go take your GED and start community college somewhere?
That was Rumpspringa
8: No, that was Flight of the Anal Intruder.
Also, it makes so much sense to me that Heebie is a fallen-away Unitarian.
Eating meat on Fridays during Lent: wweet. Eating meat on Fridays during Lent procured at the Burger King on Notre Dame's campus (the only place on campus that served meat on Fridays during Lent): so much sweeter.
To be honest, I'm not sure which bullshit rules are still officially in place, but I grew up with the fasting-related ones: fish on Friday, full fast on Good Friday, no eating before Communion Sunday morning. I could probably come up with some more; I used to sing at a very conservative church where some of the women kept their heads covered, that kind of thing.
It's a tough thought experiment to make, since it's hard to know what growing up in, and especially being away from, an Amish community would be like. To the extent that I can imagine, I'd only go back in order to not be cut off from my friends and family. I don't do too well with rules.
I sort of skipped out on the "kill an unbeliever to prove your loyalty" business, but I think the fellas down at the death cult would know I'm with them in my heart, if they know.
if Unitarians prostyletized
*Knock knock*
A: Hello?
B: Hi, we'd like to encourage you to believe what you want.
*pause*
B: Hooray! Another success!
Alternate 15: I'm a reform Breatharian. I eat food, but I definitely still breathe, too.
I don't do too well with rules.
Which is why you're so laid back about others' grammar.
16: I always heard that as "What do you get if you cross a UU and a jehovah's witness?" "A: somebody who knocks on your door for no particular reason."
Similarly: "Why do Unitarians sing hymns so badly?" "A: They're always reading one line ahead to make sure they agree with it."
Sir Kraab,
It's a tough thought experiment to make, since it's hard to know what growing up in, and especially being away from, an Amish community would be like.
In general I like and respect the Amish. I know some about them and have been around them.
I think the biggest problem the teens have breaking away is that they are very ill-equipped to make a living in our society. Their schooling does little to prepare them for the jobs of today, especially now that many of our factory work is gone.
So it isn't just a values thing, it is also an eating thing.
UPN or someone had an "Amish in the City"* reality show, which I watched purely to be able to testify to the depravity of network TV, but it was actually fascinating to watch the Amish kids interact with and evaluate the "new" world.
*Several kids on rumspringa, several bratty L.A. kids, sharing a house and heartwarming life lessons before the Amish kids decided whether to join the church.
12: Quarterdogs don't count? Of course, you have to wait 'til midnight.
Taking the Lord's name in vain is probably one of those things that seems to be necessary every once in a while.
Leaving Unitarianism.
I renounce the fact that I have nothing to renounce!
20: True enough, but heebie's question is aimed at living within groups' rules, de facto or de jure.
I don't really go in for "in-groupness" (my ingroups - financial journalists, left blogosphere commenters, Americans abroad who don't sound American), and I can't stand super-religion, so probably not. Then again, not being a member of a super-religious sect, I'm not best placed to answer the question.
22: Klug, you just brought a giant smile to my face! (And I'm pretty sure quarterdogs are pulled Thursday nights during Lent.)
I was soooo jealous of the Amish when I first heard about rumspringa. The Mormons would never institute that kind of thing -- they'd lose most of the kids, I'm sure.
Their schooling does little to prepare them for the jobs of today, especially now that many of our factory work is gone.
I don't know much about the Amish, but there was a Mennonite community where I grew up, and they tended to have and excellent skill profile from an employer perspective (though most tried to avoid working outside the community). They knew the 3R's (no TV or video games distracting them from their lessons during the formative years), they often knew one or more skilled trades (carpentry, joinery, engine maintenance) to a respectable degree, and they were honest and reliable.
They weren't likely to be in contention for jobs as web designers, but the non-digital economy still has opportunities for this kind of person.
I grew up in a very moderate denomination in a family that was not especially Bible-thumpery, and I still ran away from the cloying religious doctrine and condemnation.
Which is why you're so laid back about others' grammar.
Good grammar isn't a rule, it's a fetish. Whole different thing.
What KR said. A young man who knows a skilled trade and doesn't drink can be very valuable to an employer.
not especially Bible-thumpery... relative to the rest of my extended family and the community, I should say.
21: I watched that show. It was freaky how heart-warming it was. What was weird (and I'm sure largely a product of the editing) was how incredibly likeable the Amish kids were, and how incredibly unlikeable the LA kids were. It made the decision of the Amish kids to not go back all the more surprising.
Thought about joining a monastery once.
If I make it to 60, I might do a Hindu & give it all up and wander the streets til I die. Getting tired of being surrounded by myself:people, places, things, memories. Too much world, too much news. Bored now.
But don't want to go create a new me:Fields sown, friends, new home. Just go somewhere and watch the wind blow newspapers down the street.
Probably won't. Too selfish, enjoy thinking there are people who need me around.
they often knew one or more skilled trades (... engine maintenance) to a respectable degree
Yeah, probably not a biggie among the Amish community.
Krabb's got it in 14. This thought experiment is difficult because it sort of asks one to balance different parts of your personality against each other. Sure, I'm almost exactly like my parents in a cultural way and in terms of how I relate to society (though I'm following a pretty different career path), but that's partially because we are almost entirely opposite of any strict religion or family/community-centric group.
So what's the stronger influence, my love and resemblance of my parents or my general rejection of strict rule sets without secular logic backing them up? Any version of me that was brought up in a strict Mormon or Amish community and family would be entirely unlike the real me, and that family would be entirely unlike my own, so it's kind of an impossible question to answer.
Po-Mo,
Yeah, probably not a biggie among the Amish community.
Interestingly the Amish are cool with diesel engines. I assume that is because they do not use a spark.
I worked in a machine shop through college so I was very interested in the Amish machine shops. The woodworking shops I saw were powered by a main shaft driven by a large diesel engine. They start the large engine with a smaller diesel engine started by muscle power. All the power tools work off belts driven by the main shaft.
I'm not sure why they don't use diesel cars - perhaps the electric starter is the problem.
So, yeah, carpentry and diesel engine repair are skills the males may have.
The ugly side of the patriarchal Amish community are horrendous accounts of incest and/or child rape which, if known within the community, are self-policed and virtually unpunished.
A young man who knows a skilled trade and doesn't drink can be very valuable to an employer.
And for the young man who drinks and doesn't know a skilled trade there is always the Church, the military, the law, or academia.
And for the young man who drinks and doesn't know a skilled trade there is always the Church, the military, the law, or academia Unfogged.
Or, rather, hiatus is the new rumspringa.
Ogged is on his Rumspringa. We hope he chooses to return to the compound.
Tripp, the "Modern Technology" section of the Wikipedia article on the Amish does a decent job of explaining the various reasons for adopting or not adopting different technologies. Primary considerations seem to be how it will affect separation from the outside world and whether it will engender resource competition within the community.
Ogged is on his Rumspringa. We hope he chooses to return to the compound.
I think he will. The freedom to use analogies with abandon, spell the slang term for ejaculation "c-u-m", and make unironically sexist remarks is thrilling at first, but ultimately unfulfilling compared to the support of a close community.
while virginity as a virtue and no abortions are bullshit rules, they're not negligible
No birth control is both bullshit and negligible.
36: The Ordnung (the set of rules governing Amish life) varies from community to community. Cars are generally banned because they can encourage people to go far afield, weakening the community; they also can be status symbols. Powered farm and shop equipment doesn't present the same threats. Electricity is okay is some communities as long as it's off the grid; it's not the electricity itself but the separation from the outside world that's at issue.
On preview, pwned by M/tch. I'd like to think that pwnage is disfavored among the Amish.
45: I'll bet ogged's out there right now saying "fart".
You spent more than 16 minutes composing that comment? Dude.
I had to leave my desk in the middle of it! Again, I blame my children.
No birth control is both bullshit and negligible
I think what Heebie meant by "negligible" is that living according to those strict rules versus ignoring them will have few effects on the rest of your life and behaviors, and will only directly affect fairly minor things (say slight wardrobe limitations, or only missing out on one kind of meat). No birth control would be a huge fucking rule to hew strictly to, and would change our behaviors in some pretty big ways, so it's not a negligible rule by that definition.
44: Mitch, thanks!
It seems pretty amazing that I could get a better explanation of Amish ways by reading Wikipedia than by talking with the Amish. I hesitated to ask too many questions when I was with the Amish though.
I'm not being sarcastic, Wikipedia is surprisingly amazing at times.
The Amish community I visited did have a single telephone, located by itself in a makeshift phone booth.
in a makeshift phone booth.
Ever see an Amish phone booth raising? Would you like to?
27: You big silly, that's what the mission is all about. You just make sure you get a good partner, and do your mission in Paris.
The ugly side of the patriarchal Amish community are horrendous accounts of incest and/or child rape which, if known within the community, are self-policed and virtually unpunished.
I've linked to it before, but here's a Legal Affairs piece on the subject.
The Amish around here will use diesel engines if their fixed, but nothing self-propelling.
Their skills (around here) are narrow but salable: woodworking, blacksmithing and welding, logging and milling, construction carpentry, truck gardening. But they all are farm skills.
There was an Amish girl in nursing school ~10 years agao where I worked. She had an adorably pretty face under her cute snood, but if you looked at here you could see she was pretty husky, presumably from hauling feed bags and stacking bales.
She had an adorably pretty face under her cute snood, but if you looked at here you could see she was pretty husky,
Deceptive bitch.
57: On one of shivbunny's recent assignments, they were near an Amish community, and they hired a couple of the local boys as helpers. It didn't matter that they'd never seen a seismic exploration rig before. Being big, strong, and not afraid of large machinery is sort of the skilled labor equivalent of a business degree: you have similar skills, and you can be trained.
You just make sure you get a good partner, and do your mission in Paris.
Yeah, tried that. They sent me to Ukraine instead.
"How 'ya gonna keep 'em down on the farm after they've seen Donetsk?"
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I have just received a gift basket of exotic chocolate. Chocolate with cardamom, with anise, with cumin, chocolate with green tea, chocolates with pictures on, chocolate from Ghana, chocolate from other places that I'm not sure of because my colleagues have already devoured it. I'm experiencing a theobromine high.
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You failed in the Ukraine, which is populated primarily by nude models? Bave, you have to look at yourself.
Oddly, nothing much I do is un-Lutheran. Going to church was the part I gave up.
63: You have to remember, John, at that time he didn't have the Mustache of Power.
64: What constitutes a chocoslut? How many chocolate bars must you eat to be a chocoslut?
Would you cheat on the bullshit rules if you were a member of some super religious sect that you mostly enjoyed being a part of?
it's a really good question -- I think it would depend on the degree to which the bullshit rules interfered with my enjoyment. Having grown up nominally Catholic, I almost think the negligible bullshit rules alienated me more than the big ticket bullshit. I'm not very good with (what I perceive to be) meaningless rituals. Of course, while I see plenty of people (especially in my present 'hood) who derive a strong sense of that in-group belonging from the Catholic Church, I never have. I suspect if some super religious group showed up that gave me that in-groupy sense of belonging, I'd dive head first into the bullshit rules, at least for a little while.
62: You chocoslut.
Exactly. Got a dumb personal project you'd like me to waste my time on? Bring the chocolate.
You failed in the Ukraine, which is populated primarily by nude models?
I was discussing this with someone just the other day. Ukraine is full of hot women who wear scanty clothing, but the men are pretty meh. If they'd sent me to France or Brazil or someplace with lots of hot dudes, maybe I'd have gotten in on a little rumpspringa action.
Notice how Bave just says "Ukraine", and not "The Ukraine". Good for you, Bave.
Having praised Bave, I will now commence to vituperate him.
Bave, you're a bad, ugly person. I don't mean physically ugly. I mean spiritually ugly. The only way you can redeem yourself is by shaking that ass.
I hear there are lots of hot dudes in Hague, Netherlands.
The Ukraine! The Crimea! Czechoslovakia! Jugoslavia! Rumania! Ceylon!
Shake your ass and your mind will follow.
Russian and Ukrainian have no articles, of course, but Ukrainian self-respect is indicated by using the preposition "v" ("in") rather than the traditional "na" ("on").
"Ukrayina" means, literally, "on the edge" or "on the border," so the linguistic analogy with The Netherlands is apt. But it's small blow against Russian imperialism to omit the article/use the correct preposition.
The Ukraine! The Crimea! Czechoslovakia!
Living rooms! Bedrooms! Dinettes!
78: Now that you mention it, Ukraine is just like a mini-mall.
You'll find it in the Soviet Bloc. I'm talking 'bout the Soviet bloc.
9: Re: Unitarians proselytizing: Have you read the Unitarian Jihad manifesto?
In Soviet Bloc, flea markets you!
Does the unfogged style guide take an official position on the Gabon, the Sudan, the Ivory Coast, and the Lebanon? How about die Schweiz?
You forgot the Polandthe Philippines!
Living rooms! Bedrooms! Dinettes!
Two-a-day! T-Bone! Left Eye! Coach!
The Sudan is deprecated, you imperialist.
The horrible people down in The Sudan are not to be condoned, but rather should deprecated with great vigor.
Red would never say The Ukraine.
The internets! The blacks! The gays!
It's The United States, you America haters. Or as we sophisticated patriots refer to it, les États-Unis.
It isn't Ben's fault he understands. In his homeland definite articles are reserved for numbered freeways.
It isn't his fault he doesn't understand, either. It's just not his fault, whatever the facts on the ground.
99: Mexico is also "The United States of . . ." country, you racist.
Google's suggestions for "The United States Of ______" include, in order, "Leland", "Whatever", "Arugula", "Gosling", "Mexico", and "America Torrent". So you're all wrong.
She had an adorably pretty face under her cute snood, but if you looked at here you could see she was pretty husky, presumably from hauling feed bags and stacking bales.
Ah, "husky." Now there's a word we don't hear very much anymore, mores the pity. We midwesterners may eschew nautical references but we love us some farm references.
And FWIW the Amish women around these parts were rather uniformly teh hott. But I think that is rather universally true. Except for the ugliest place on Earth. Ugh. I never did say where that is.
Let me just say that in "that place" a receptionist for Massivecorp, a person presumably hired specifically to present a polite, pleasant and helpful image of said corporation, was actually a rude ugly icky most un-helpful person.
And you know I put a premium on the voice and the vocal intonations? Horrid.
Hey heebie, is the title to this post sung to the tune of that song that Gilligan sang a cover of that goes
"G, I, Double L I, G A N spells Gilligan . . ."
and ends with
Gilligan, that's me!
(the real song is sung by a guy named Mulligan or Harrigan or something like that)?
(the real song is sung by a guy named Mulligan or Harrigan or something like that)?
That's weirdly punctuated.
106: It could be, if you'd like to sing it that way. But I was thinking of a Life In Hell throwaway joke about What Should You Name Your Baby?
Mexico is a real place? I thought it was the made-up country Ogged pretended to be from, so that he act all foreign and superior and shit.
Harrigan - 1907 George M. Cohan song from a Braodway. Subsequently popularized in movies and a TV series.
107: That's weirdly restrained.
109: That's weirdly conjugated.
110: Thanks, JP!
If you're telling the truth, that is.
Your "M" appears to be getting miniscule, M/tchell.
That's weirdly conjugated.
It's the standard third person singular present indicative in Ebonics.
Racist.
It's still weirdly conjugated, actually, since you wouldn't expect an indicative there. Plus, I believe "act" as you've described it generally has a habitual aspect; that is, "he act all superior" means that it's something he generally does (though he might not be doing it now).
Oh, you're definitely doing it now, w-lfs-n.
C'mon M/tch, let's hit him as as hard as we could.
W-lfs-n doesn't feel physical pain, only mental. You're already hurting him more than you could if you tried.
118: "than" s/b "then", "You're" s/b "Your", naturally.
Their their M/tch. Take it ez on Walt, hes okay.
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Apparently Radovan Karadzic was caught. I don't know about you but I'm doing a Snoopy Dance right now.
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Hm, perhaps I should have posted this in the "Borderline"-thread. Seems more appropriate.
115: We be asking Robert Parker, he be asking Spenser, an' he be asking Hawk?
(I have no idea of how authentic Parker's Ebonic dialogue between S. and H. is but it sure is annoying now. One would think both of them would have gotten tired of the joke after the first fifty-seven books.)
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