Edroso: "The only possible conclusion: Obama is trying to make himself look like Hitler to win votes."
From people who can't vote, no less. You know who else sounds completely fucking unhinged? Victor Davis Hanson.
That's an incredibly terrible graphic design job on the McCain poster. It looks like those joke tacky photoshops done for "a new stamp!" after the 9/11 attacks which featured the twin towers, blurry-edged firemen, and a 9000 foot tall eagle crying.
In fairness, it's from a McCain poster contest, so a lot of these are amateur entries.
a lot of these are amateur entries
Ah. That is disappointing.
McCain is obviously invoking that part where they're flying through the clouds at the beginning of Triumph of the Will.
I like "Integrity We Can Trust," as opposed to that nefarious strain of integrity that's merely mildly credible. My Integrity—Let me show you it.
Nothing says "fascism" like a profile view on a poster.
it's from a McCain poster contest
I'm annoyed that Josh didn't point that out, though it seems quite possible that it's a proofreading error and that instead of "this McCain poster in support of his campaign" he meant to say, "this amateur" poster.
They're just suppressing the Obama poster that's all done in blackletter.
What happened with the picture in #10? Looks like a sloppy photoshop of Eisenhower.
Seriously, this "OMG he's using German! When in Germany!" is the weirdest goddamned thing.
"Let's Raise McCain" is my favorite. What, did he die?
Currently only 6 google responses for "Obama macht frei". let's see how that develops.
Those are just awful! The fireworks one is a bad decoupage design. The lurking in the shadows one is confusing and a little scary. I love how the "authentic" one has a flag with blue stripes and a gold field and stars. McCain authentically hates the American flag!
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Bob Novak cited for hitting a pedestrian with his car, then driving away.
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jets are born from McCain's forehead
I'm just glad McCain is finally getting around to replacing the four planes he crashed.
Wisdom; Athena; Zeus
McCain is the wizard Shazam.
Recounting an earlier incident: "'Learn to read the signs, [bodily orifice]!' Novak snapped before speeding away."
Hi-larious.
And "integrity we can trust" is just pathetic.
Leadership we can be led by!
Resolve that is determined!
Vision that can see!
15: Yep, but the fireworks one is hilarious. Ghost McCain watches on in quiet approval as his living doppelganger strikes a slightly swishy musical pose with Cindy! And fireworks explode for no reason!
The one where McCain's saturated to a black half-image and superimposed on a flag is at least striking, and he can only benefit from any residual Scarface coolness that rubs off because of it.
16: Well, he was fair game.
Novak explained to the paper: "He was crossing on the red light. I really hate jaywalkers. I despise them. Since I don't run the country, all I can do is yell at 'em. The other option is to run 'em over, but as a compassionate conservative, I would never do that."
Two years later, the same column reported that Novak had gone to a racing school in Florida.
"I've wanted to be a racecar driver all my life, and anyone who has watched me drive can tell you that," Novak said.
So, so perfect.
Well I dunno. I've always been suspicious of that guy in profile on the quarter. He looks shady to me. Pursed lips. Rattail in back. Even a little of the Laura Petrie flip. Probably some fascist hippie who looks good in stretch pants or something.
It isn't surprising that most of these slogans are exact takeoffs on Obama slogans. Obama's running this game. As someone (I forget who) on the news (maybe even Fox?) said about McCain's "That's not change we can believe in" speech, it's not exactly rhetorical mastery to basically repeat your competitor's awesome slogan and then say "no, it's not."
Apparently hit-and-run is an infraction in D.C., not even a misdemeanor.
We need Drew Struzan to do some stylized campaign posters. I see McCain's face, seconded by a Commodore 64, then Emperor Palpatine, some TIE Fighters streaking across the sky, and a small army of Hillary Clinton supporters.
"I've wanted to be a racecar driver all my life, and anyone who has watched me drive can tell you that," Novak said.
As Mr Caveletto, my HS driver's ed teacher said back in 1972: "You want to race cars? Go to a race track and race cars. Otherwise knock it off."
it's not exactly rhetorical mastery to basically repeat your competitor's awesome slogan and then say "no, it's not."
Hey, tell it to Garth and Wayne...
The McCain poster gave me a funeral home or sympathy card vibe. Here's a tip, Republicans: Don't do anything to remind the public that your man has already got one foot in the grave. I know you've got no reason to trust that my advice is given in good faith, but jeez, isn't it obvious?
God, this is just unbelievable. Is the real worry here that Obama is overseas before he's been elected? Because that's the only worry that I could see having a whiff of sanity around it.
Jonah Goldberg's tortured logic seems to be an improvement on the rest of his cohort. At least he made the leap from Hitler liked honey to liberal honey-eaters are fascists. These guys get there just from the mere German.
As Mr Caveletto, my HS driver's ed teacher said back in 1972: "You want to race cars? Go to a race track and race cars. Otherwise knock it off."
"Please, God, I'm only 71!"
30: I just had a great idea for a Mass card for McCain. Pretty picture on the front, prayer for the dead on the back.
the only worry that I could see having a whiff of sanity around it
Holy shit, are you using the wrong metric, Cala.
Man, you just can't make this stuff up.
If W-lfs-n were here, he would point out that the links in the post prove that you can, in fact, make this stuff up.
Anyway, mcmanus pwned link No. 2 months ago.
Resolve that is determined!
Judgment that makes good decisions!
Experience that's been around the block a few times!
Courage that's not afraid of anything!
A Maverick who bucks his own party! [Oh, wait...]
Al-Qaeda Will Be In For It Once He Finds His Teeth!
I pretty sure my grandmother has this one in her home, only McCain's arm-in-arm with Pope John Paul II.
I think he should have a poster that says "SCORN DEFEAT".
Is there any similarity between the Hitler and the Obama pictures? The Obama picture features diagonal lines, blue coloration a profile that doesn't fill the frame, a profile cut off in mid-chin, and words next to the profile. The Hitler picture has no diagonals, red coloration, has a profile as large as the frame which inclueds the neck, and words below the profile. They go together like apple pie and Nazism.
38: He sorta looks like he wants to make love to America in that one. Creepy.
He sorta looks like he wants to make love to America
Well, so did Walt Whitman.
In fairness, it's from a McCain poster contest, so a lot of these are amateur entries.
Yeah, but these are the top ten finalists, chosen from "many fine entries." Imagine all the ones they rejected.
#10 is impressively jowly, and its text seems to imply that he'll change prosperity into peace. Wait, what?
They all need a "cunt" word bubble, imo.
He sorta looks like he wants to make love to America
Well yeah, but the bitch is totally asking for it.
Is there any similarity between the Hitler and the Obama pictures?
None whatsover. The Obama campaign was obviously trying to evoke this image.
I actually really like the McCain poster. It turns the campaign into Black Jesus vs. the patriarchal God of the Old Testament. The old dude in the sky will keep you safe.
Want to explain why the Left gets outraged when a point is made about the substance and form and context of an Obama slogan, style, speech location, etc. but it's okay for President Bush to be directly compared to Hitler in thought, ideology, intention and action and the conclusion is invariably that President Bush is worse than Hitler?
Obama resembles Hitler in graphic design. Bush resembles Hitler in ideology. The former is a serious complaint about a politician.
the bitch is totally asking for it
America, when asked to make a comparison, said that she preferred her hate-fuck from Barack Hussein Obama.
50: Now there's a bumper-sticker.
48: 'Outrage' is a funny way to spell 'laughing uproariously at your stupidity', Melissa.
I'll admit that Obama's team has a pretty bitchin' modernist aesthetic, but I have a really hard time identifying McCain's. Is there a word for what is begotten when Thomas Kinkade impregnates a bald eagle?
From the link in 48:
When I saw the Obama flier picture, my mind immediately called up this Hitler image and I was struck by how similar they are in feel the color choice differences aside.
What struck me is that it must require a certain amount of time spent looking at images of Hitler for a specific one to be "immediately called up."
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Rory is presently about a Europe-bound plane and I am off to go coach her softball team's last game. We had a tearful morning saying goodbye. Also just saw the libertarian today for the first time since the break up. Perfectly amicable. All and all, a sad afternoon.
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Is there a word for what is begotten when Thomas Kinkade impregnates a bald eagle?
American Fuckyeahism.
Rory is presently [abord?] a Europe-bound plane
Visiting the inlaws?
Di,
What a coinkydink. My Sprogs at camp but I'm still coaching the softball team this week. The head coach is doing that rugrat bike thing in IA so I'm promoted to head coach. Had a good game last night, make-up game tonight, final game tomorrow. Keep their chins up!
The McCain poster reminded me a bit of the Star Child at the end of 2001. Just needs a translucent membrane around him.
There's a crucial component of control missing for this Obama/fascist/Socialist Realist graphic analogy to work. I mean, pointing out one obvious thing among so many, but it doesn't count as controlled imagery if you have heroic lighting and faces and diagonals and boldfaced text unless you also have camps set up for any artists who deviate from this line.
At a certain point I was strongly considering a graduate career studying the dissident impulse under totalitarian states, or, at least, this one amazing facility in Uzbekistan, where Stalin squirreled away notorious artworks. The safehouse was in fact the idea of a curator (who went to the Gulag) but it was adopted by Stalin when he realized it was actually a decent idea to evacuate contrary or dissident or merely nonofficial artworks from the metropolitan capitals. I have this broader vaguely formed thesis that modernism/postmodernism emerges eventually under strict totalitarian regimes and that there is a way by which it evolves under these conditions that's pretty different from the Western path in predictable ways, according to examples in China, USSR, and North Korea. Like microbial life forming two miles under the ice shelf or near steam vents deep in the ocean.
Fortunately I chose the highly lucrative industry of Journalism instead.
The only possible conclusion: Obama is trying to make himself look like Hitler to win votes.
Gut reaction A: Hitler always polls well here in America so I'm really surprised it's taken this long.
Gut reaction B: I can't wait for these fuckers to wake up the morning after election day with faces sore from crying.
I can't wait for these fuckers to wake up the morning after election day with faces sore from crying.
Oh, they'll be all out of tears by then. It'll be like '92 - the writing was on the wall way before election night. I still remember Bush I kind of aimlessly puttering around on TV in late October, with this distant look on his face, like he just wanted to pack his bags and go home.
Gut reaction B: I can't wait for these fuckers to wake up the morning after election day with faces sore from crying.
It is going to feel so good. I am starting to put thought into where I want to be on the night of the election and the day of the inauguration. Both need to be locations and events worthy of the euphoria. I figure San Francisco will go apeshit, so that's a start.
No entry for "McCain '08- Get Off My Lawn!"?
I was thinking about what to do for election night. My wife said people could come over but she didn't want to go out because we'd have to get a babysitter.
we'd have to get a babysitter
Didn't you tell her that part of Obama's platform is "A babysitter in every rec room"?
American Fuckyeahism.
Amerikitsch?
Red, white, and bluecolic?
Neo-excretionism?
Early Pflegmish?
Lowbrowhaus?
State Fairealism?
Art Drecko?
66- I knew it, Obama's all about the nanny state.
Haliaeetus leucocephalos kinkadiensis, I would think.
Didn't you tell her that part of Obama's platform is "A babysitter in every rec room"?
As in, "Hottt, amateur teen action?"
*That* ought to help his weak polling numbers among white males aged 40-55.
67 is brilliant, and so is the image of Thomas Kinkade impregnating a bald eagle.
"The Painter of Dawn's Early Light"
Election Day itself kind of terrifies me this year because I'm an election judge and we are going to be stampeded to death sometime around 6:32am EDT.
On election night '92 I was in an elevator in my dorm and some drunken frat cheese in a delicately weathered baseball cap was holding up the back wall when the doors opened to let someone else on (or maybe the drunk fratboy was getting on, I don't remember). We could all see the TV in that floor's lounge showing Clinton picking up another state and the drunk fratboy shouted, "That's my BOY," or something like it, and I wondered how I had ever doubted Clinton's election.
I do think the real haters will hold out hope to the very end and then try to point to anecdata to fuel a whisper campaign of election fraud after the fact. The president's approval ratings for years now have demonstrated that there is a minority of absolute dead-enders, as we are fond of calling them here, and those people are going to cling to the dim light of racism as their only hope of winning. After they've lost they will work to smother Obama's credibility before he's even taken office. If he wins I'm going to party like there's no tomorrow but I'm not going to read a single blog for a week after that.
I'm not going to read a single blog for a week after that.
Very wise. Though perhaps there can be an exception for Unfogged, where there will be a single thread devoted to variations on "Woo hoo!"
Won't there also be sad people in DC? There aren't going to be any sad people in SF when Bush leaves office. I wonder if they'll grant a general citywide permit for block parties.
75: Rah and I have mentioned this possibility - driving up to DC to be there during the inauguration - but damn are some hotels booked solid and crazy expensive. Every hotel I know is booked up and the ones I don't all seem crazily over-priced.
Won't there also be sad people in DC?
The sad people will all be in Maclean, VA and Chevy Chase, MD. DC will be jubilant.
I am looking forward to jubilant. And delirious with joy. And samba bands taking over the streets. And a huge sigh of relief. And standing in line to vote the second the polls open. Probably fireworks. And people weeping from wonderment at the possibility of redemption.
I think Chicago might also be a nice place for election night. I envision parties in almost every ward and precinct.
So, counting the ones that haven't hatched yet, how many chickens to we have?
80: Awwww yeah. I'm taking the day after election day off, maybe two days, and going on a horrendous bender no matter what the results. It's gonna be good.
I'm not looking forward to anything. In my adult life, nobody I have ever voted for in a contested election has won. This country is going to become more and more awful over the next five years no matter who wins anyway.
I know, Rob H-C, and my terror will rise in proportion to my hopes in the days just before the election and inauguration. I'm still tamping down (although I am more afraid that Cheney will declare martial law and cancel the election or that Sen. Obama will be assassinated (please god avert) than I am afraid that McCain will win legitimately).
But I do think Sen. Obama will win, and the prospect is just dizzying when it gets through my armor. The end of Bush's term alone would be enough for big celebration. But a black president on top of that? One who bodes well?
81: We have all the chickens we need.
83: I remember the weird feeling I got in 92 when Clinton was elected. Someone I voted for actually won. It has never happened to me ever. I felt giddy. I felt invested in the presidency. I quickly felt let down.
I can't wait to feel disappointment again instead of abject horror. Those were some tolerable years.
53 is very funny.
I think it will take me a long time to be disappointed in the Obama Presidency, since the main thing I'll be thinking is, "Damn, Republicans, you fucked up so big that America elected a black dude just to get rid of you."
83 is absolutely correct. Welcome Peter of the clear-eyed gaze.
If you aren't feeling abject horror over the next few years, you won't be paying attention. And while willful ignorance is never an excuse, it is probably the best policy.
I find the continual emphasis on the race of the Democratic candidate offensive.
88 shows the main reasons it is celebrated by Democrats:vindictiveness and malice.
Correction to 90:I don't think the black democrats feel that way, they are most likely voting for Obama based on policy preferences and hope for America than any desire to stick to Republicans.
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Huh. The governor says that if California doesn't sign a budget by next week, I'm going to get paid minimum wage until it does. (Then I'll get the rest back.)
That is kindof exciting.
I was so pleased with him today too, because he announced that CA, some other western states and some Canadian provinces are starting up a cap and trade system for CO2.
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"stick it to Republicans" of course
The small vindictive souls of the urban liberal elite has been one of the revelations of this election.
Punish Hilary for her vote, for example, rather than end the war.
The false conciousness of these people is also fascinating. They think they're nice.
You're talking out of your ass again, Bob.
No, wait, you're right. When I decided to support Obama, what I was thinking was:
Ending the Iraq War isn't at all important, fuck that. What I really want to do is punish Hillary. Also, I want to nominate a black man because "Love me, I'm a liberal." Also, I hate the working class. But I'm such a nice person!"
I haven't indulged the urge to say this in a long while, but fuck you, Bob.
Dudes, comment 88 is perfectly clear and doesn't need much exegesis.
I think it will take me a long time to be disappointed in the Obama Presidency, since the main thing I'll be thinking is, "Damn, Republicans, you fucked up so big that America elected a black dude just to get rid of you." ...Walt
Would you like me to unpack it? As in the first clause indicates a near total indifference to policy?
What, there's no false consciousness here. I do have a small, vindictive soul. My moral system has the same level of complexity as Batman's. The Republicans are guilty. And they must be punished.
Yeah, Bob, it was perfectly clear. It was a joke. Jesus.
97: And since people need to believe in the system, you want Dent Obama to do it!
Bob, I like you, but sometimes you're an idiot.
The Republicans are guilty. And they must be punished.
88:Punished by electing a "black dude?"
84:The end of Bush's term alone would be enough for big celebration. But a black president on top of that? ...Megan
As I said I don't think this is the main motivation for Black Democrats, who remember Clarence Thomas and have black conservatives in their daily experience, and know first hand that "black man" is a sign only used in racism, otherwise without much meaningful content.
100:I am obnoxious, trollish, with a warped and anti-social sense of humour, but I don't think I'm really dumb. If I were an idiot, I would know tho, would I?
Not-totally-OT:
Spam of the day: "Obama converts to Judaism!"
The dear Dr. Clouthier who posted the Hitler vs Obama signage yet insists that she wasn't really comparing Obama to Hitler. She contends it is just the graphics that caused her to worry. She believes that the rest of us are just too dumb to understand her appreciation of design. OMG -- What tools these Republithugs are.
57: It's not rugrat, it's RAGBRAI: The [Des Moines] Register's Annual Great Bike Ride Across Iowa. 20,000+ drunks bicycling from the Missouri to the Mississippi River in a week, thousands of whom learn for the first time that the state is not, in fact, flat.
Every hotel I know is booked up and the ones I don't all seem crazily over-priced.
RMMP, I just sent you an e-mail with some info on other possible accomodations (besides the Flophouse floor, I mean) in D.C. If anyone else is interested in the info, drop me a line at mypseud at geemail.
Can't make this shit up either, unfortunately.
WHY DOESN'T OBAMA PUBLICLY ANSWER MY VERY SPECIFIC QUESTION ABOUT THE NAME OF THE DOCTOR THAT DELIVERED HIM? WHY ARE THERE ZERO PICTURES OF HIM AS A CHILD? etc.
Let's see some pics of the McCain baby of that long-gone era, why don't we? That would be fun.
Check out, BTW, the size of that comment thread and the length of the comments. Inquiring minds, man. They are just not gonna vote Obama unless they get that info pronto!
Let's see some pics of the McCain baby of that long-gone era, why don't we?
At the time, they hadn't yet invented cameras in Panamá, AWB. Duh.
"If I were an idiot, I would know tho, would I?"
Not really, as several studies have shown that the stupid overestimate their own competence. If you think you're not an idiot, you probably are.
Lot of chickens being counted up thread. Not much hatching going on yet.
WHY DOESN'T OBAMA PUBLICLY ANSWER MY VERY SPECIFIC QUESTION ABOUT THE NAME OF THE DOCTOR THAT DELIVERED HIM? WHY ARE THERE ZERO PICTURES OF HIM AS A CHILD? etc.
Clearly, Obama is a Warming Pan Baby.
This might have been more appropriate for the discussion of slime in the other thread, but any guesses as to what bombshell oppo research (or scurrilous internet rumour) the GOP launches in the last week of October?
Since nothing they've thrown at him to date has stuck, they'll have to get creative. They could double down on the previous smears (e.g. they bring out an imam who attests that Barack had earnest conversations with him about converting to Islam), or come up with something to try to dampen the enthusiasm of Obama's base (my guess: a blonde, white girl who claims that BHO dateraped her when they were in their 20s).
Given the demonstrated willingness of the administration to use the intelligence apparatus for political gain, I wouldn't rule out the leak of a Zimmerman telegram-like communication (say, an intercept of the Iranian leadership communicating with shi'a extremists in Iraq, ordering them to sit tight until after the election, when they'll get a better deal from Barack Hussein Obama).
My money would be on 3. Nobody except the 27% would believe the others, even if they were true. They're too transparently obvious. In fact some semi-detached supporter could do worse than start a meme now: "In October, I bet the Republicans wil..."
Also, from the British POV in 1917, the Zimmerman telegram had the advantage of being true (at least Zimmerman publicly copped to it). Can't see Khamenei being that naive.
Can't see Khamenei being that naive.
...or so the mullahs would have you believe.
Knecht, I believe everything the mullahs tell me, as an article of faith. Also we have evidence that Barack Hussein Obama frequently visited the website of Dragan Dabic.
84: Seriously, I do hope people are formulating a) some sort of an "Obama gets shot*" plan, and b) some sort of a "massive Republican electoral shenanigans" plan. Both of those things are when, not if.
(* Especially the scenario where he gets shot and doesn't survive.)
I do hope people are formulating a) some sort of an "Obama gets shot*" plan
Both of those things are when, not if.
Unless of course the Republican strategy is to throw this election with a joke candidate, let the Democrats take the flak for the recession and everything they need to do to dig them out of it, and just when it's getting better in 2012, come back shouting about tax cuts and "morning in America".
This would imply some Republican strategists with a measurable attention span, but it's not impossible.
I actually think they're going to pack it in by October, when McCain is down by fifteen in the polls. Republican operatives seem pretty close to being totally demoralized.
I have a sneaking suspicion that GOP attention is focused more on securing preemptive pardons and shields from prosecution than it is on election fraud at this point.
As a matter of constitutional law, if Obama is assassinated between the electoral college vote and his inauguration, his VP elect is not yet next in line, nor is she President elect. So what happens in January?
20th Amendment: "If, at the time fixed for the beginning of the term of the President, the President elect shall have died, the Vice President elect shall become President."
Let's see some pics of the McCain baby of that long-gone era, why don't we? That would be fun.
Especially if what I recall is correct, that little babies back then wore longish dresses.
120: You know, I've thought about this, and it starts to seem more plausible. McCain would have been a great candidate in 2000, but now he comes across as someone who is in over his head, which would be par for the course except the base doesn't like him much.
Thanks, potchkeh. Which plausible VP candidate would make the best kevlar for BHO?
Also, check out the awesome 'fro on Sam Brownback.
Was there ever a funk band called "Brownback"? It could happen.
Sam Brownback is an inspiration to ethnic brownbacks all across this great nation.
little babies back then wore longish dresses
I'm sure there's a monograph about it somewhere, but why did that practical style give way to babies of both genders—I'm anticipating gender anxiety as a reason to be offered—being tightly fitted with a sort of coverall thing? Quickly outgrown, requiring to be constantly snapped and unsnapped: the old gowns could have been just lifted out of the way. Ours often ended up in miniature t-shirt and diaper anyway for around-the-house, but still.
being tightly fitted with a sort of coverall thing?
Because you can sell a lot more of those, that you can the practical style.
132: I suspect it's because the snug little onesies give the developing munchkin greater mobility. I picture a little one trying to crawl around in a gown like baby McCain is wearing and it seems unavoidable that the little limbs would get all caught up in the material. (We had a few onesies with multiple snapping points so that they'd "grow" with the baby.)
multiple snapping points
We just got our first shipment of cloth diapers to play with (we like to plan ahead) and, man, some of them have ludicrous numbers of snaps.
our first shipment of cloth diapers
Cloth diapers are a cruel joke on new parents, mrh.
Does anybody know what standard practice before plastic pants surrounding a cloth diaper pinned in place was? That was already how it was done when I was a baby. Were there other waterproof garments or was the diaper simply thicker, do you think?
Does anybody know what standard practice before plastic pants surrounding a cloth diaper pinned in place was?
Corks.
My writing partner just had her baby last week. She was having trouble nursing--painful trouble--and they took her to the baby chiropractor, who fiddled on her spine very softly. Nursing problem gone!
I'm totally into this baby. Might have to have one myself.
Cloth diapers are a cruel joke on new parents
I'm pretty sure this is true. We're committing ourselves to trying them out (teh environment!), but we're also going to lay in a supply of disposables.
137: One alternative is boiled or felted wool wraps.
Does anybody know what standard practice before plastic pants surrounding a cloth diaper pinned in place was?
A lot more washing. Seriously.
139: You might want to have your friend call you every time the baby cries (night and day!) for a couple of days. They suck you in with all that cute wriggliness and new baby smell. Don't be fooled!
140: If you decide you can't hack the cloth diapers, you can assuage your conscience by telling yourself that all the hot water and bleach is bad for the environment, too. The earth's a loser either way!
Cloth diapers aren't such a bad deal as you get into that toddler/pre-toilet training stage where you want the kid to know when s/he's wet.
a lot more washing
My guess too, but washing facilities were quite limited in the cities of a hundred years ago; that's why there were bathhouses and laundries, cold-water flats and flats without. Sheer labor in any case. I don't remember newborns in any of those "nineteen-hundred-house" style reality shows from a few years ago.
The earth's a loser either way!
It's really true. They say having a kid is one of the worst things you can do from an environmental standpoint. We do promise to feel bad about just about every parenting choice we make, if that helps any.
The diaper-changing, the sleepless nights...all this business can be avoided by taking up with a divorced mother. Atavistic memories of the veldt be damned, this is a selling point that begs for greater consumer awareness. The divorced mothers need to pool their resources and work on rebranding, with a focus on benefits like these (sell the sizzle, not the steak, as the marketers say). If the prune producers can reposition their product as "dried plums", surely the divorced mums can improve their brand equity.
The earth's a loser either way!
True, but if there's one thing we have plenty of in the United States, it's space for landfills.
If the prune producers can reposition their product as "dried plums", surely the divorced mums can improve their brand equity.
"I'm not a divorced mom. I'm a dried hottie."
I'm not a divorced mom. I'm a driedwrinkled hottie.
if there's one thing we have plenty of in the United States, it's space for landfills
I know this comment is meant in jest, but it's not really true, at least not in any meaningful sense. The problem is that the geologically suitable, unpopulated areas are, well, unpopulated, and they are a long way from where the garbage is produced. So the "reverse logistics" of disposal to any site remote enough to make a landfill environmentally and politically acceptable are unacceptably high. So you end up with solutions like incineration plus long-distance transportation of fly-ash, which has all kinds of nasty environmental repercussions.
153: Hawaii has it particularly bad.
Can't they just dump the trash down the volcano?
"Want the benefits of a family, without all the hassle of raising a family? You need a Fully Ripened Hottie, the quick and easy way to social respectability. Whether you're an overworked executive, a closeted gay man, or just a playboy partier who has suddenly realized he's not going to be able to live like this forever, there's a Fully Ripened Hottie to meet your needs.
Fully Ripened Hotties: Because some other dude has already done the hard part."
Can't they just dump the trash down the volcano?
Can't risk angering the volcano gods. They insist on undefiled virgins.
They insist on undefiled virgins.
Or Joe.
Seriously, I do hope people are formulating a) some sort of an "Obama gets shot*" plan, and b) some sort of a "massive Republican electoral shenanigans" plan. Both of those things are when, not if.
Oh, come on now. Liberals just can't get used to being in the driver's seat...it's all just got to collapse somehow.
140: We used a mix of cloth and disposables. Basically, cloth around the house, where we had a system for dealing with them, and disposables when we went out. It worked pretty well.
Even with the disposables, you are technically supposed to dump the big hunks of poo in the toilet, rather than wrapping it up and sending it to the landfill. So really either way, you have to deal a certain amount with the poo.
153: Actually, it wasn't meant in jest. But I should refer this conversation to my co-blogger, who actually works in this area.
156: great copy. Now you just have to film it. I envision an attractive thirtysomething woman sitting at the breakfast table with a cute young son and daughter -- perhaps five and six years old, safely past toddlerdom but well before the teen years. All of them directing yearning looks to the camera over the empty chair at the head of the table.
Cut to the mother in a revealing yet tasteful lacy nightgown/lingerie combination, giving her children a goodnight kiss. "When will we have a daddy again, to read us a story?" "Shhhh...it's time to go to sleep now".
The camera follows her down the hall, with the lamplight illuminating her body through her translucent gown. She enters her bedroom and lounges on her bed, suggestively caressing her thighs. As she reaches over to turn out the light (giving the camera a good shot of her cleavage), she gazes sadly at the empty pillow beside her and utters a plaintive sigh.
"Fully ripened hotties...there's one waiting for you"
I should refer this conversation to my co-blogger, who actually works in this area.
Who, for all I know, might agree with you, KR.
Let's see some pics of the McCain baby of that long-gone era, why don't we?
Multiply pwned, I was going to point out we'd have to get them back from the British Museum first.
107: good lord. Absolutely surreal. I was going to quote but picking out just one comment can't do that thing justice.
The blogsphere really makes novels superfluous, no one could make that shit up.
162: And I'm envisioning all the lawsuits -- fraud? breach of the warranty of fitness for a particular purpose? -- when the hapless buyer comes home to the five and six year old scarfing down their microwave mac and cheese dinners in the living room while Sponge Bob blares on the TV, stares hopelessly at a sink full of dishes, then in a last burst of optimism makes his way to the bedroom to find not a lacy nightie, but his fully-ripened hottie watching TV in sweats and a t-shirt while eating doritoes in bed.
I mean, not that I want to discourage the demand for divorced moms, but, well, caveat emptor.
Sir Kraab,
Very wise. Though perhaps there can be an exception for Unfogged, where there will be a single thread devoted to variations on "Woo hoo!"
May I suggest a second thread devoted to "Boo hoo, Loser!"
My first comment will be "cry me a river."
I mean, not that I want to discourage the demand for divorced moms, but, well, caveat emptor.
Impossible! Divorced moms are teh hott. The secret is to wash the dishes and clean the kitchen. Once you've done that it is the express train to Hottberg.
How hard is it to eat doritos in a lacy nightie?
167: If international dating/mail-order bride sites are any guide, what will happen is that the sweatpants clad FRH will trigger a weird rationalization loop: he must have been paired with one of the bad ones! so he must try again! All FRHs wear negligees, the Internet website said so! There's a perfect FRH out there for him, somewhere.
We just need a background story. See, FRHs are tirelessly dedicated to their children, so they work out (for the children) and prepare delicious meals (think of the children!), and all they dream of is the kindness of a well-off, handsome, respectable man who knows how to treat a lady right. (Must stroke the egos, after all.)
Methinks the trouble here won't be discouraging demand, but attracting too many jerks.
Methinks the trouble here won't be discouraging demand, but attracting too many jerks.
Tell me about it...
attracting too many jerks
who were actually the cause of the supply of fully ripened hotties to begin with.
I like to think of myself as a man with a idealized and patronizing view of women, but even I wouldn't conclude that someone with children would be likely to "work out (for the children)".
Methinks the trouble here won't be discouraging demand, but attracting too many jerks.
They need to be reminded of what my wife says - "No man ever got shot doing the dishes." My daughter says "Be nice to me because I'll be picking out your nursing home."
As I've said, respect is the key. Also knowing what somebody wants. Housework is surprisingly high on that list. Not doing it, of course. Getting it done.
Methinks the trouble here won't be discouraging demand, but attracting too many jerks.
I can't imagine any way in which the ad I outlined in 162, or KR's pitch in 156, could possibly attract a "jerk".
Also knowing what somebody wants. Housework is surprisingly high on that list. Not doing it, of course. Getting it done.
you mean hiring servants? I was hoping we were beyond the paradigm where women go for the moneyman above all else.
Want the benefits of a family, without all the hassle of raising a family?
Sitting here, eagerly awaiting the arrival this evening of my divorced-mom ex-gf and her 6-y-o son for a long-weekend visit, I can attest to a certain appeal in this approach.
six year old scarfing down their microwave mac and cheese dinners in the living room while Sponge Bob blares on the TV
This is actually a fairly spot-on description of the kid in question. Total obsession with both crappy mac and cheese and SpongeBob (to say nothing of Kraft SpongeBob-shaped mac and cheese). I've been working on easing him in to higher-quality cartoons, but the food I've given up on.
Housework is surprisingly high on that list. Not doing it, of course. Getting it done.
Nah. Ability to fucking cope with the housework not having gotten done is sufficient. Just brush the doritoe crumbs off the pillow and quit your griping.
Di,
It is difficult to argue with experience but in my experience there is a hierarchy of needs and brushing the crumbs aside, once met, leads to the vacuum the crumbs need and the next thing you know you are painting the bedroom. Again.
Tripp's hierarchy of needs.
Does anybody know what standard practice before plastic pants surrounding a cloth diaper pinned in place was?
MISERY.
Or rubber pants.
Oh, and one thing I learned in my Frat. You gripe about it you fix it. I don't gripe. It leads to too much work.
You gripe about it you fix it.
A very good rule indeed!
174: Men who go overseas to date/marry a woman from an impoverished third-world country are willing to believe that their income and green-card status has NOTHING to do with the fact that all these 21-year-old women are giving them the time of day. It's just the non-materialistic culture in which these women were raised that makes them want to marry old foreigners.
Convincing men that FRHs are working out because they have been sagely convinced of the benefits to their health and longevity, and that they are not doing it for looks? Easy, in comparison.
I suppose fully ripened hotties are clearly preferable to sun-dried hotties.
Just brush the doritoe cheetoh crumbs off the pillow
It's just the non-materialistic culture in which these women were raised that makes them want to marry old foreigners.
That's how you got your young hottie, right? (Not that you are old.) I mean, they are so nonmaterialistic up there in Canadia that they are like, communists, or something.
In China, all the baby/toddler clothes had little slits or flaps in them to allow for waste passage. Even in the depths of winter when it was sub-freezing and all the little ones were bundled up to resemble big round balls of wool, you could still see glimpses of their windchapped little asses through all the layers. I left in 2000 and I'm told that diapers are becoming more popular there.
Also, you'd often see a parent or grandparent holding a baby over a trashcan or the train platform in this particular pose, business end pointed away, and making this whistling noise which encouraged the baby to pee. Supposedly most infants were basically potty trained before the age of two.
Di,
You gripe about it you fix it.
A very good rule indeed!
Yeah, but here is my unified theory of relationships involving elements of Electrical Engineering, quantum mechanics, and Frat-logic.
Tripp's unified theory of relationships.
To begin - no two events are ever exactly simultaneous and no two physical properties are ever exactly equal. Nothing is ever perfectly equal.
Also, the person who gripes fix the problem.
OK.
No two people will ever care exactly equally about any topic. Take, for example, neatness.
Thus one person will care more than the other. Maybe just a tiny bit, but still care more.
Inevitably - inevitably, given time the situation will arise where one person wants things tidied and the other doesn't.
With me so far? So the person who wants the tidiness at that point does the tidying. Everything is good so far. Everything makes sense.
Except the logical conclusion is that every time the same person is doing the tidying.
Over time what made sense at the start becomes a problem. Why is it always the one person doing the work? Why doesn't the other person care more? Why doesn't the other person help? What is wrong with the one person? What is wrong with the other?
Yeah, perfectly fair and correct inevitably leads to conflict.
Please note I am making no gender references here. Those are irrelevant. This isn't about gender. It is about rational conflicts in human interaction.
188: I told ya. eBay! (Shipping costs on 200lb Canadian are a bitch.)
(Shipping costs on 200lb Canadian are a bitch.)
That's silly. Don't you end up having to ship the Bitch then?
Also, no discussion of Thomas Kinkade is complete without linking to these:
What are the crazies at 107 even trying to do? They seem to acknowledge that Obama was born in Hawaii in 1961, which clearly settles the matter of his eligibility for president. I'm reluctant to wade into the cesspool any further, but curious about what they think they're doing.
194: Apparently the Constitution forbids bastards or people with dual citizenship from the Presidency. Unfortunately, since they haven't said where this language is in the Constitution, it's impossible to verify their claims.
194: Don't you see? He was born in Hawaii to a Kenyan father. And then his mom married an Indonesian who might very well have adopted him. He acquired double, maybe even triple citizenship! That must disqualify him from the presidency!
I told ya. eBay! (Shipping costs on 200lb Canadian are a bitch.)
Sure, but think about it this way: Now you can get a Canadian passport, and unlike the unfortunates in 184, you didn't even have to leave the country. Yet.
189: I was in china last summer, and I saw split pants on babies and toddlers all over, urban and rural, rich and poor. Also, mothers holding babies over trashcans.
I was also impressed with how many attendants the little emperors had with them at all times. I rarely saw a child with fewer than two adults within arms reach. Also, I only once saw a child being scolded, and that was for doing something that was life threatening. (Are there social restrictions against scolding your child in public? Would you loose face for doing it?)
Would you loose face for doing it?
The witty retort just writes itself.
Or perhaps I should have said "rights it'sself"?
I was also impressed with how many attendants the little emperors had with them at all times.
They referred to it as the "4 2 1" problem, i.e. for every child there were four grandparents and two parents catering to her/his every whim.
Ability to fucking cope with the housework not having gotten done is sufficient.
Fixed that for ya'.
194: Being unwilling to vote for Obama because he is black would be racist and wrong. Being unwilling to vote for Obama because of unanswered questions and strange cover-ups about his early life just makes you a concerned citizen.
In the absence of such questions and cover-ups, making issues up is the only responsible choice.
I'm not sure about the no-scolding issue though. I seem to remember a fair amount of it going on, although more in a chiding or fussing over way than angry screaming or anything like that.
198: Although I didn't notice any baby butt cracks, I saw children getting scolded a bit in Shanghai when I was there a few years back. The one time I remember was when my then-girlfriend (Shanghaiese, fluent in Mandarin) and I got on the escalator in a mall behind a mother and a toddler who was facing back over her shoulder.
(Kid stares at me with a gaping mouth for a good minute)
Mother: What're you looking at?*
(Kid, keeping his eyes trained on me the whole time, leans to whisper into her ear)
Mother: Well stop it! That's not polite!*
*This was all translated later by then-gf, who was mostly trying her hardest not to crack up as I stood there looking confused.
Thomas Kinkade, as skilled at belligerent heckling as he is at art:
In 2006 John Dandois, Media Arts Group executive, recounted a story that on one occasion ("about six years ago") Kinkade became drunk at a Siegfried and Roy magic show in Las Vegas and began shouting "Codpiece! Codpiece!" at the performers. Eventually he was calmed by his mother.
OT: "Police have charged a Durham man with robbing ATM customers in Raleigh and Chapel Hill on Tuesday. Keith Robert Webster Jr., 23, was also charged with possession of a weapon of mass destruction (a sawed-off shotgun)."
How in the hell does a shotgun count as WMD?
They referred to it as the "4 2 1" problem, i.e. for every child there were four grandparents and two parents catering to her/his every whim.
Sadly, in some cases if the baby is female it is the "0 0 1" problem.
But don't fret too much about the little Emperors being spoiled. When it comes time to seek a mate they are faced with the age old supply and demand thing and all the sudden they find their poop does stink.
207: F. Winston's secret identity recklessly revealed!
apo,
How in the hell does a shotgun count as WMD?
You disappoint. It was not a shotgun. It was a sawed-off shotgun. The shot scatters and thus may kill a mass (apparently "mass" means greater than one in this case) of people.
194-96: Obama might have been *born at sea*. Not in U.S. territorial waters! This would account for a birth certificate filed in Hawaii, yet maybe somehow stop him from being President! It is imperative that we investigate 1961 shipping records between Hawaii and the West Coast!
I kid you not.
209: Apparently they've just started importing women from Russia, North Korea, etc. I remember reading a news story about that and they interviewed a Russian woman who had married a Chinese man, basically mail-order, and she said something like "Yeah, everybody wants a Chinese husband, they don't beat you like Russian men do."
212: Obama (D-Hidden Pirate Island)?
The shot scatters regardless of whether the shotgun 's barrel is sawed off. That's kinda the point of a shotgun, right? I was under the impression that the advantage of sawing off the barrel is in concealability, not in the marginally wider spray.
Is that a sawed-off shotgun in your pants, Apo? Or are you just happy to see me?
214: It was only supposed to be a three hour tour! A Three Hour Tour!!
Apo's got a weapon of mass um, mass . . . digglerization??
"Want the benefits of a family, without all the hassle of raising a family? You need a Fully Ripened Hottie, the quick and easy way to social respectability. Whether you're an overworked executive, a closeted gay man, or just a playboy partier who has suddenly realized he's not going to be able to live like this forever, there's a Fully Ripened Hottie to meet your needs.
Fully Ripened Hotties: Because some other dude has already done the hard part."
Are you trying to steal my business plan!??!?!
I was under the impression that the advantage of sawing off the barrel is in concealability, not in the marginally wider spray.
"Under the impression" eh? Apo: playing it close to the vest.
I can't imagine any way in which the ad I outlined in 162, or KR's pitch in 156, could possibly attract a "jerk".
I understand the the "Fully Ripened Hotties" campaign has yielded results that fell short in some respects of the needs and expectations of the divorced mums cooperative. Market conditions change, consumer needs evolve, and the marketing program of the divorced mums product needs to evolve with them.
Because we are invested in the success of this rebranding, I want to present to you a new concept that builds on the successes of the Fully Ripened Hotties campaign and tailors the message to a more finely differentiated portfolio of customer segments.
First, it's worth stepping back and recalling who our target market is. We like to describe the target consumer as the "5-S Man": sane, single, sober, solvent, straight. What do we know about this segment? Our research shows that these consumers appreciate values like authenticity, workmanship, distinctiveness, and self-expression. We also know that they value convenience, status enhancement, and cost-savings, though they typically will not acknowledge this in ordinary survey research. Therefore our campaign cannot appeal directly to these attributes; it must give the consumer a psychologically acceptable pretext, like marketing a Mercedes for safety.
Against this background, I present to you the "Woman in Full" campaign. (The "Fully Ripened Hottie" brand will be discontinued as a mass-market brand, though we will continue to market the niche brands "Homestyle Hottie" and "Latinas Calientes" to their respective target markets.)
What does the "Woman in Full" brand represent? Let's start with what she does not represent: the flaws of the competition, which our comparative ads will make manifest.
[Room darkens. Cue video of a series of 30-second spots showing trim young cuties in a variety of embarassing and/or unflattering situations: obsessed with shopping for clothes, making a faux pas in a fancy restaurant, making eyes at a muscular guy closer to her age, begging to get a puppy (with the clear implication that it foreshadows wanting a baby), etc. The final spot shows a guy driving off in a convertible with a woman much his junior, whereupon his boss and colleagues snicker about his trophy bride behind his back.]
This is the differentiation of the Woman in Full brand: she's self-confident, she's past all that young girl nonsense, she knows how to comport herself, she won't raise suspicions that she married you for your money.
[Cue video of man and Woman in Full, dressed in sweat pants and a tight-fitting tee-shirt, playfully cavorting in bed and feeding one another Doritos. A bottle of Veuve Cliquot is clearly visible on the bedside table. The man looks up and says, "I dated so many girls who were full of it. And then I found my Woman in Full." The camera angle suggestively shows the top of the woman's hair around the man's midriff.]
Hey apo, did I send you a link to the nifty Universe Sandbox?
ass destruction, M/tch.
aka WADs.
223, translated: ACKNOWLEDGE ME! ACKNOWLEDGE ME!
226: While I do think you should be more widely acknowledged, heebie, particularly by the apostropher, that's really not what I was going for in 223.
Describing Heebie as widely acknowledged doesnt sound very gentlemanly, m/tch.
I mean acknowledged as a BIG MEANIE, of course.
It's true that I seek uncritical acclaim. HEY! NOT THE POINT!
Heebie seems to have an incipient case of half-OPIONATEDism.
I'm not a grandma, I just shout a lot.
The phrase "Fully-Ripened Hottie" is the greatest fucking phrase ever. You people are geniuses.
The practice will come in handy once you do have grandchildren.
It would be nice if the person complimenting everyone in 233 was recorded for posterity, but alas! It's lost forever.
Little grandchildren everywhere. YOU'RE NASTY, HEEBS! I 'on't care.
It would be nice if the person complimenting everyone in 233 was recorded for posterity, but alas! It's lost forever.
All it needs is a link to a site selling counterfeit designer handbags and it would be the perfect comment spam.
Did KR steal Fully Ripened Hottie from personal ads?
On my blog I get comment spam closely approximating that. Reading through the spam queue is good for my self-esteem.
67, 222: Knecht, you are on today.
Did KR steal Fully Ripened Hottie from personal ads?
No, I stole it from Cala, whose coinage it was.
As it happens, I don't make a habit of reading personals ads. However, I did once click on a link on the front page of Yahoo that went to their personals page, and it was blocked by the net-nanny of my company.
Some weeks later, I was talking to Blume and Sifu (the night that Fleur and I ran into them at a restaurant), and I was discussing the bizarre fact that my employer blocks alicublog and thepoorman, but very little else. I was reciting the list of sites that I know are blocked (youtube, somethingawful, and so on), and I innocently mentioned that it blocks personals ads. I immediately realized just how bad that sounded, but of course you can't backpedal from something like that without making it sound even worse ("It was for a friend, really!").
Only pathetic losers read through spam queues, Walt.
Yesterday I got over 120 "undeliverable mail" messages in my yahoo inbox, because I've turned into a spammer, apparently.
246: Oh, in that case, could you help me get my hands on some herbal viagra?
243: Just sublimating my frustrations, Kraabie.
243: I'm waiting for Knecht's version for Fully-Ripened Male Hotties. Because I'm a feminist.
I'm waiting for Knecht's version for Fully-Ripened Male Hotties
You can just call me by name, parsimon.
"It was for a friend, really!").
That reminds me. At the next Unfogged, BR might ask about the trip to Vegas and you and I took. Just tell her we had a blast.
Once upon a time, I signed up for Match.com so that I could investigate the other side.
Facebook, match.com, myspace are fabulous places to get the dirt on the other side.
But Fully-Ripened Male Hotties doesn't work as well, since men aren't devalued sexually as they age, the way women are. Perhaps Off-The-Vinies, where fourteen year old shorties finally get the love they've been dreaming of? (But that's just repulsive.)
252: But but but you haven't (yet) been accompanied by various slow pans, fadeouts, suggestive voice-over and so on.
245: Make Money Fast begs to disagree.
Facebook, match.com, myspace are fabulous places to get the dirt on the other side.
Will has dirt on his butt!
254: Indeed, the emphasis would have to be on the Hottie part, since there are certainly plenty of Fully-Ripened Males about already.
Heebie the elementary school kid makes me laugh.
Fully-Ripened Males
Maybe Fine-Vintage Males. Get past the fruit metaphor. Move on to wine.
259 to 254? Seriously, Will, I'm sure he's a great kid with a terrific sense of humor. But 14 really is too young for you.
254: heebie, why do you feminists have to bring gender politics into everything? Just chill, man dude girl babe hon dollface person.
I'm waiting for Knecht's version for Fully-Ripened Male Hotties. Because I'm a feminist.
The simpler path for you, dear parsimon, is to get a real estate license and get into the niche business of selling antique houses on small farms. Then, you simply wait until the right recently divorced burnt out former hedge fund employee who made enough cash for a modest retirement at 42, but not really a fortune, comes along looking for the bucolic retreat where he will raise tomatoes and look after the flower beds; and right after he signs the closing documents, you put your hands up his shirt.
Dollface could be either gender. Action-figure Face!
Speaking of wine, make your plans to gone Stanley and me on October 11th and 12th at the Wine and Garlic Festival!
http://www.rebecwinery.com/page10.html
262: It's because gender politics are a high-risk, high-reward pickup line, obvs.
men aren't devalued sexually as they age, the way women are
This may be true for Hollywood, powerful politicians, and wealthy businessmen. Out here among normal people, however, they most certainly are.
make your plans to gone disappear Stanley and me on October 11th and 12th
Done and done.
Out here among normal people, however, they most certainly are.
I'd say this is true. The chief difference might be that men aren't unrealistically expected to remain hotties as they age, while women often are.
||
I'm going to be Chicago for two weeks. Anything in particular I should do there? I've been there before, so I've already had deep-dish pizza, and seen the Art Institute.
Also, meetup? Does anyone live in or around Chicago?
|>
270: The architectural boat tour thing has always been fun. I think there are good walking architectural tours if you are less lazy. Arlington Race Track (a bit NW of the city) can be fun, if you enjoy betting on the ponies.
Heebie: since men aren't devalued sexually as they age
Apo: This may be true for Hollywood, powerful politicians, and wealthy businessmen. Out here among normal people, however, they most certainly are.
Parsimon: The chief difference might be that men aren't unrealistically expected to remain hotties as they age, while women often are.
I think the deal is that men in general are sexually devalued as they age, but since they have so many other routes to power and status, it doesn't really matter for their self esteem. An old guy who runs a small business (say) may feel a little pinch at no longer being sexually desirable, but hey, he's got his business and his house and people respect him.
The walking architectural tours are the best. I recommend finding one that focuses on the older buildings, rather than the Mies van der Rohe modernist stuff. But that's just my taste.
270: I also highly recommend renting bikes from Navy Pier & biking along the lakefront path, some day when it's not too hot. Good vantage point & speed to view the skyline.
The gorilla exhibit at the Lincoln Park Zoo is great. The other exhibits are a little on the not-enough-habitat, depressing side, esp. on a hot day. But it is free.
I would guess that an architectural walking tour might be better than a boat tour for informational purposes--the boat tour stuck a little too closely to bldgs on the river rather than other, cooler ones nearby for my taste (I prefer the older skyscrapers too, though some of the modern ones are cool)--but it is nice sitting & being on the water.
As you might guess, I live in Chicago, but I'm apparently moving to Boston in about a month & my life will be chaos in the interim.
270: This time of the year? Head to the beach if you're anywhere near the lake. There are also various fun bar/club scenes of all levels from relaxed to pounding intense music depending on what you're into. The MCA is having one of the first ever Jeff Koons retrospectives right now. Also, grab some midlevel-to-fancy Mexican cuisine sometime while you're out here.
I'm pretty sure you have my email address (I've got yours), and I live around downtown, so just lemme know and I'd be happy to meet up sometime when you're out here.
first ever Jeff Koons retrospectives
Oh, boy!
As you might guess, I live in Chicago, but I'm apparently moving to Boston in about a month & my life will be chaos in the interim.
Yikes! Hope this is good news -- good luck with the move.
A blunt by the Wabash street bridge is always good. There's a place to get a glass of wine if that's better for you, but I always liked the underground city vibe on the loop side. It's nice to watch the bridge open.
Chicago-style hot dogs, of course. Which stand isn't all that important, as long as the cook looks to be a lady ex-con. Neighborhoody-looking thai places are usually disappointing.
U of C's Oriental Institute has a nice collection of Egyptian artifacts. The submarine is cool. Is Cabaret Metro still good? It's been a while for me....
Also, a Chicago meetup would be fun. I'll make every effort to appear should one take place.
272: Outside of Hollywood, I don't see that attractiveness is really an effective route to power and status for men.
it doesn't really matter for their self esteem
Which is why nobody goes to the gym or purchases Rogaine.
263: Jeepers, Knecht, I think you've missed the point. Jolly good, though; I'm already in a niche field. Got it covered!
Those boat architecture tours are fun. I was under the impression that Chicago didn't have any old buildings left to look at.
Apo, seriously, are you saying that men's dedication to the gym or Rogaine is akin on any level to freakin' plastic surgery?
Oh, boy!
Yeah... I know, but tastes differ. Also, fuck you, the metal-cum-plastic-inflatable bunnies are AWESOME TO THE MAX!!1!
Heebie, seriously, are you saying men don't get plastic surgery?
282: If by "old" you mean "older than 1910s and 1920s Chicago School or Art Deco architecture", then you're right. At least, I'm not really aware of anything older than that around the neighborhoods I frequent.
285: On anything approaching the scale and frequency that women get liposuction, breast implants, facelifts, and Botox? No, they don't.
Sit Ubu, sit:
It's not rugrat, it's RAGBRAI
Potayto potahto. Who cares about a bunch of aging hippies biking across, of all place, Iowa? I mean really?
And don't forget labiaplasty! Don't want those ungainly things swaying in the breeze!
Women get it more often, yes. But RH-C's contention that men's self-esteem isn't particularly impacted by the sexual devaluation society associates with aging could only be made by a young man.
Heebie, seriously, are you saying men don't get plastic surgery?
That would be a silly thing to say. I get plastic surgery. Hotties getting hotter all for my viewing pleasure? Yeah baybee! Up with patriarchy.
And don't forget labiaplasty!
I'd wager that labioplasty is no more common than penis enlargement surgery. That is to say, pretty damn rare overall, and reported on way out of proportion to the actual rates of either.
Significant older buildings, like the Auditorium Theater (1891, Sullivan), his Carson, Pirie, Scott building, the Monondnack building, or the houses on Prairie Avenue are none of them easily viewed from the river, if they're even visible.
Po-Mo, I sent you mail.
I'm sorry to hear that Katherine. Hope it goes well.
Woo-hoo, Di!
What is a Chicago-style hot dog?
What is a Chicago-style hot dog?
Among other things, it can have cucumbers(!) on it.
But RH-C's contention that men's self-esteem isn't particularly impacted by the sexual devaluation society associates with aging could only be made by a young man.
Or a man who possessed little or no attractiveness when young and thus has nothing to lose by aging.
The juxtaposition of Chicago tourist tips and semi-heated discussion of genital plastic surgery is what makes unfogged unfogged.
But RH-C's contention that men's self-esteem isn't particularly impacted by the sexual devaluation society associates with aging could only be made by a young rich man.
Interestingly the man who can most afford plastic surgery doesn't need it.
The Chicago hot dog is supposed to have fresh tomatoes and cucumbers on it, I believe. and be on a poppyseed bun. And sweet relish. And, of course, segret incredient(S).
But RH-C's contention that men's self-esteem isn't particularly impacted by the sexual devaluation society associates with aging could only be made by a young man.
Sure. In fact, I'd bet that actually a good portion of women get sort of zen about the futility of maintaining their youth, and relax about it, just about the time that many men are confronting it for the first time.
(When Helpy-chalk made the comment about the small business owner, I identified with how much I like my (minor) prestige on campus, compared with how much of a rat's ass I give that I don't have long legs and a tiny waist.)
It's no coincidence. Apo is my only confidante, and I shared with him my plan to go to Chicago for genital plastic surgery. Flanges, baby!
299: "Chicago hot dog" s/b "surgically enlarged penis"
Also, are professionally successful/financially secure older women deemed as hott by the culture as men in those categories? Do we have anything but anecdata and assumptions to guide our conclusions?
Po-Mo, have you gone to the Koons thing already? I'm super stoked about it, but I've been working my ass off/working on the weekends/traveling on the weekends. Hopefully I can get there before it closes.
I'd wager that labioplasty is no more common than penis enlargement surgery. That is to say, pretty damn rare overall, and reported on way out of proportion to the actual rates of either.
I don't know about this. Brazilian waxes have gained popularity; female genitalia can have fads.
Whereas penile implants are just the modern-day version of goat's balls tonic that was advertised on Border Radio sixty years ago.
From the debunked evolutionary view women want the hott man for his good genes and the rich cuckold to provide the household and upbringing.
Thankfully nobody really behaves that way in this day and age. We are no longer animals. We are rational and logical creatures completely devoid of any primitive feelings or tendencies.
I identified with how much I like my (minor) prestige on campus, compared with how much of a rat's ass I give that I don't have long legs and a tiny waist.
And I can identify with this. Though it's unfortunate that my (very, very minor) prestige seems to stem from my role as Eric's stable boy. Still, proximity to power ain't nothing. At least that's what I tell myself.
pubic depilation ≠ genital surgery
m. leblanc is in Chicago? Is everyone in Chicago? I thought everyone lived in New York or Minneapolis.
307 is inappropriate levity in the context of my Very Serious Trip to Chicago.
Do we have anything but anecdata and assumptions to guide our conclusions?
I don't get it.
Yeah but pubic depilation reveals how weird and wrinkled one's labia look, if one is insecure. I bet it's a gateway vagina makeover in some sense.
Why would you want to see a Jeff Koons exhibit?
I thought those were just design objects for speculative investors.
In fact, I'd bet that actually a good portion of women get sort of zen about the futility of maintaining their youth, and relax about it, just about the time that many men are confronting it for the first time.
heebie,
Exactly so. And when the piggish rich man confronts the futility of his wife maintaining her youth he dumps her for a trophy wife. The trophy wife ignores the rich man's age because of his money.
That is if this ever happened. Luckily it never does. Or if it ever did these would be bad, bad people. Except the first wife, who is a saint.
Among other things, it can have cucumbers(!) on it.
You know what's fucking awesome with cucumbers in it? Gin.
I don't get it.
Fair enough. I mean, the assumption seems to be that men who are powerful and/or rich remain attractive even as they age. But women do not. Assuming that I'm right about that being the assumption, is it based on anything but May-December romances in Hollywood films and the fact that my rich uncle has a hott young wife but my rich cousin (who's an older woman) is alone and bitter about it?
I firmly believe that the attraction to reductionstic descriptions of the differences between male-female behavior is genetic.
You know what's fucking awesome with cucumbers in it? Gin.
I bet you could tap a cucumber with gin, like we used to do with watermelons and rum in college.
312: Yeah but pubic depilation reveals how weird and wrinkled one's labia look, if one is insecure.
Ha! I told my mother about the current trend in pubic depilation, and she said, "I can't believe people would like that, it just shows how disgusting everything is down there."
This is still making me chuckle.
It may be futile to maintain youth, but it's not futile to maintain hotness. All you really have to do is stay active/not get fat, maintain your energy and vibrancy, cultivate new interests, etc. All that shit is automatic when you're young but has to be worked for as you age.
Sir Kraab,
You know what's fucking awesome with cucumbers in it? Gin.
You know what else is awesome with cucumbers that I learned in England? No, not that! I'm serious here.
Cucumber sandwiches are awesome. Good bread with a hint of salad dressing and freshly sliced cucumber? Surprisingly awesome. Pretty healthy, too, I think.
316: I think there's plenty of evidence that an older, fit man with a little money maintains a lot more sexual status than an older, fit woman with a little money. That's changing, gradually, but still appears to be very much the case in NYC at least. I am still a little titillated by the shock of seeing a 20ish hot dude with 45+ woman, but a 45+ guy with a 20ish hot chick is pretty common, in Manhattan at least. In the former instance, I guess I tend to imagine he's her son, until they make out.
In Brooklyn, it's still generally taboo to date outside your age range, in either direction, or at least, it's still pretty shocking and people stare.
Who cares about a bunch of aging hippies biking across, of all place, Iowa? I mean really?
My dad's done RAGBRAI several times, and he's no hippie.
All you really have to do is stay active/not get fat, maintain your energy and vibrancy, cultivate new interests, etc. All that shit is automatic when you're young but has to be worked for as you age.
Unless you're fat, or you would rather maintain the same interests.
Po-Mo, have you gone to the Koons thing already?
No! I've been meaning to but never gotten to it! Plus, my roomie's cool-as-hell girlfriend really wants to go, so I've been meaning to go with her sometime and we've just always had stuff to do.
Also, people, Chicago-style hotdog, as the deities intended it:
all-beef hotdog grilled until the outside is slightly charred (Vienna Beef, Best Kosher, or Hebrew National are the acceptable brands)
poppyseed bun
mustard
half-slices of fresh tomato
quarter-section of a pickle, laid lengthwise in the bun
a few sport peppers (hot little peppers, a bit less than a cm in diameter and about 3-5 cm long)
sweet relish (should be neon green, look like part of a halloween costume)
diced onions
celery salt
And that's the order in which those ingredients should be added, too, or else it'll fall apart when wrapped. It's delectable, and only rivalled by the Maxwell Street Polish (charred polish with mustard and grilled onions, sometimes also sport peppers) in the pantheon of encased-meat foods.
I firmly believe that the attraction to reductionstic descriptions of the differences between male-female behavior is genetic.
Walt,
I totally agree. So is the strike reflex to certain statements like a Northern hitting a lure. Apparently it is insuppressible.
The Chicago hot dog is supposed to have fresh tomatoes and cucumbers on it, I believe. and be on a poppyseed bun. And sweet relish.
And sport peppers, and yellow mustard, and celery salt, and tomato. I've never had one.
316: No, I mean I don't get why we would use anything other than anecdata and assumptions to guide our conclusions.
You know what's fucking awesome with cucumbers in it? VaGina.
I fixed your statement in accordance with what the internet tells me is true.
My dad's done RAGBRAI several times, and he's no hippie.
Sorry ben, I really am, but RAGBRAI, Iowa, bicycles? He's a hippie, at least inside. No good American would be so weird. Good Americans would drive a car to Vegas or something.
Unless your Dad is a, and I really apologize about swearing about family but here goes, liberal.
328: EXACTLY. There is no truth, only perceived truth and attempts at consensus.
Plus, my roomie's cool-as-hell girlfriend really wants to go, so I've been meaning to put the moves on her go with her sometime and we've just always had stuff to do.
331: Whoa, that's like, totally deep.
I've never had one.
Basically, I'm an awful resident of any city I've ever lived in. At least I'm a regular patron of Super Pollo when I'm back in the OC.
celery salt
Oh, yes. My Chicago relatives put celery salt on fucking everything.
AWB,
a 45+ guy with a 20ish hot chick is pretty common, in Manhattan at least.
I'm pretty sure you must be mistaken. You must be. Perhaps these are simply nice guys with their nieces from out of town?
329: if it works analogous to the standard home remedy for bags under the eyes, it might help to address the problem of wrinkled labia that Heebie discusses in 312.
I have a dataset of the dating choices of all Americans back to 1959, but I'm under a strict NDA, so I can't help you.
Hasn't Super Pollo gone the way of all things? Do you mean on Columbia?
Tripp discovers the concept "society" in 3, 2, 1...
No good American would be so weird.
My brother is no hippie, and he's done it several times. Then again, he does grow his own pot, so maybe that qualifies him as a common-law hippie.
327: Hey ben, you know how sweet this pwnage tastes? Only about half as sweet as a Chicago-style hotdog.
332: Aww, not only is he my BFF (and roomie just for the summer), but he's also my 6'2" 200+ lb workout partner. And she was a nationally-ranked fencer a couple years ago in college. I like my life a lot more than I like any given cool girl.
I like my life a lot more than I like any given cool girl.
That's what everyone says in the cold light of day, when they're sober.
KR,
Then again, he does grow his own pot, so maybe that qualifies him as a common-law hippie.
Dude, I think you know there is no 'maybe' about it. Shoot, he's pretty close to being a pinko commie. Not that there's anything wrong with that.
322, 328, 331: Okay, this is my sense, too. But, pushing a bit more, there are far fewer older women with money/power than there are rich/successful older men, right? Just to be clear, this is largely if not entirely because of structural and/or cultural constraints. But I still wonder if those (relatively few) older women who are rich, powerful, and unattached can't get laid when they want by whomever they want.
And AWB, the assumption that dating younger men is the societal mark of ongoing hottness seems questionable to me. What if older women or men prefer to be dating age-appropriate (so-called) partners? Do we then assume that they're no longer considered hott by the culture?
338: no, this is in Costa Mesa, off 17th near where the Tower Records used to be, not far from where a Moby Disc used to be or still is.
345: Oh, I misread "OC" as "DC." I was surprised to hear that you had lived there, but now it all makes sense.
Unless your Dad is a, and I really apologize about swearing about family but here goes, liberal.
My dad's political views are extremely hard for me to comprehend, actually. He's pretty conservative in many respects, but he also gave money to Kucinich.
But I still wonder if those (relatively few) older women who are rich, powerful, and unattached can't get laid when they want by whomever they want.
Nobody can get laid when they want by *whomever* they want (the first part is relatively easy). If these women are less likely to date 20 year olds, or more likely to be alone than their male equivalents, is it not possible they just on average have higher standards or different motivations?
[ i know, should be working]
What if older women or men prefer to be dating age-appropriate (so-called) partners?
That would be super. Unfortunately, I think a certain kind of aging guy does tend to take the opportunity to date sexy young things if they can, and I know a lot of older women feel anxious about the fact that guys do this, because they'd happily date those older guys. At least, when I was dating Max, I got nasty stares and comments from women about my age, and even got pulled aside by his 40ish women friends to be told that they were angry that he was dating me.
A Fully Ripened Hottie friend of mine was, as of a couple of weeks ago at least, seeing a 26-year-old guy.
I recommend to every single young man that he date at least one older woman. Christ are they good in bed.
men aren't devalued sexually as they age, the way women are.
It seems to me that without the comma, heebie's statement is completely uncontroversial.
Even with the comma, it seems to me that apo is engaging in a bit of trolling - no doubt picking up the slack for the absent ogged.
The Boston thing is largely a good thing. My husband had a job offer materialize out of nowhere (it's a 12-18 month thing, after which we could come back or not depending on what happens in the interim) & it's a wash for me professionally since I telecommute. Two of my sisters live there, one of whom is also pregnant & also expecting a daughter (her due date is about three and a half months before mine). Closer to all grandparents, too--a four hour drive instead of a plane flight...This is a great city but we still feel like out-of-towners.
apo is engaging in a bit of trolling
Nope. Of course there are differences in the way that men's and women's sexuality are perceived in this country. But the idea that men don't undergo sexual devaluation as they age is just ridiculous. If LizardBreath and I (roughly same age, married w/ multiple kids, etc) went to a bar to compete on who could pick up more 20-year-olds, I guarantee you that she would win by a massive margin.
Two of my sisters live there, one of whom is also pregnant & also expecting a daughter (her due date is about three and a half months before mine)
I paused in confusion before reading the parenthetical (and remembering salient facts about Katherine): not only is her sister pregnant, but she's also expecting a daughter? Like, from a stork?
352: the thing that's wrong about Heebie's statement isn't that men are less affected than women by aging in terms of their sexual/relationship desirability, it's the implication that they aren't affected at all. Absent some kind of extreme celebrity/wealth phenomenon, most people prefer to date within five years or so of their age.
date at least one older woman. Christ are they good in bed.
This is extremely true IME, but I think it's partly a selection phenomenon. I get the impression women are more likely than men to just step aside from the mating game altogether after a certain age. The ones who don't are strongly motivated.
a 45+ guy with a 20ish hot chick is pretty common, in Manhattan at least.
I think all Manhattan anecdotes need to be ruled out of bounds in lifestyle conversations, as totally unrepresentative of the Real America. If only media trend reporters followed this rule!
not only is her sister pregnant, but she's also expecting a daughter? Like, from a stork?
can't be too careful these days. she also has fallback plans in Namibia, Cambodia, and her husband's uterus.
If LizardBreath and I (roughly same age, married w/ multiple kids, etc) went to a bar to compete on who could pick up more 20-year-olds, I guarantee you that she would win by a massive margin.
Yeah but you're mushing up several different things here. One is your point about the toll on men's self-esteem, which I semi-agreed with in 300. But this example is all blurred with the novelty of an older woman hitting on 20 year old guys who are socialized to prize sex as the end all be all, versus the socialization for young women to find it skeezy - and common! - for older men to hit on them.
354: (a) I want to see this contest. (b) I think the results would vary depending on where the bar was.
I recommend to every single young man that he date at least one older woman. Christ are they good in bed.
Again I agree with Walt. Amazing. And this advice is not just for young men either. It is good for older men too. Once the dentures come out the sky's the limit baybee!
Or so I've heard. Ahem.
I just found out yesterday that mine's a girl (with standard "ultrasounds aren't 100%, esp. with girls" disclaimer).
date at least one older woman. Christ are they good in bed.
At least if you can get past the dorito crumbs and sweat pants.
If LizardBreath and I (roughly same age, married w/ multiple kids, etc) went to a bar to compete on who could pick up more 20-year-olds, I guarantee you that she would win by a massive margin
But isn't that just a variant of "a woman can get laid any time she wants"? Leaving aside the truth or falsehood of that view, picking up a 20 y.o. for a night of sex is very different from hooking up with one for a LT relationship.
Congrats Katherine! Boston and baby!
older woman hitting on 20 year old guys who are socialized to prize sex as the end all be all
It's not just socialization.
It's not just socialization.
It's not pure virility either.
365: Tell me which gene it is that results in this behavior. No references to the fucking veldt allowed.
I think all Manhattan anecdotes need to be ruled out of bounds in lifestyle conversations, as totally unrepresentative of the Real America. If only media trend reporters followed this rule!
Totally agree. The same with political figures and also movie stars, pop stars, sports stars, and any other celebrities I am forgetting.
What *those* people do is not representative of anything. They don't show what people would do given more power and freedom. No way. They are just weird, like some kind of other species or something.
369: I was reading his point as "It's not that we're socialized to think it's the end-all-be-all; it's that it is the end-all-be-all because it's really quite good!"
365: Tell me which gene it is that results in this behavior.
I'm not up on fashion but I think they are called "Jordache" or something like that. They shape the posterior in just the right way.
date at least one older woman. Christ are they good in bed.
I think I have divulged this on at least one other occasion, but I have never slept with a woman between the ages of 21 and 30. I went from dating a 21 year old to dating a 32 y.o., and since then I have only been involved with women who are 30+. There was no particular intentionality behind that outcome; it just worked out that way.
While I did conclude at the time that the 30+ demographic was vastly preferable to the under 21's I had experienced to date, there was always that nagging doubt about whether I had missed out on the the point of peak performance or something. It's good to be reassured on this score.
371: But the whole "no, sex is REALLY that good!" thing has also been fanned by quite a lot of socialization.
It's not pure virility either.
I agree with that too.
Yay Katherine!
Perhaps the move to Boston will occur in time to permit attendance at the PDBS meetup?
At least if you can get past the dorito crumbs and sweat pants.
Am I the only one who keeps reading "sweat pants" as "sweet pants." Am I fixated on food? Is that innate or am I just hungry? Or the patriarchy.
363: picking up a 20 y.o. for a night of sex is very different from hooking up with one for a LT relationship
Yes, this. There's some conflation going on between hooking up (or dating with no expectation that it'll go anywhere), and having a relationship.* Apo is, I think, reading "sexually attractive" in terms of the former, such that if men are viewed as less sexually attractive as they age, it means they have more trouble picking up chicks, but not necessarily more trouble starting new relationships.
I'd venture that it's in the latter realm that women have more trouble. That is, older women find it more difficult than older men to find new relationships, in significant part because age-appropriate men often still have hotties on the brain.
*PGD is conflating the two, viz. men are less affected than women by aging in terms of their sexual/relationship desirability in 356.
371: I was just remembering being 20 and hopped up on testosterone. It's a crazy drug, there's a powerful physical effect, and you're flying on it at 20. I've really been able to physically feel my testosterone levels drop as I age.
I guess, IME, there are a great number of people for whom good sex is not really a driving force in their lives. They choose people to date for other reasons, some of them good, some less good. They like status, money, good looks, intelligence, compatibility, similar life experiences, exotic life experiences, amenability, domination, whatever. Frequency and quality of sex gets talked about a lot as something that's important (and I agree, it's really important to me), but it doesn't seem to be the basis on which most of the people I've known in my life choose people to have sex with, even in the very short term. (Of course, in the long term, other things matter more.)
362: The second one fixes itself soon enough, and the for the first one, the prepared young man brings his own DustBuster.
380: I certainly don't choose who to have sex with based on who I enjoy having sex with. It's based on who I enjoy being around in the other 95% of my waking hours. But that's because I live in a milieu where I would be embarrassed to be known to be in, or even interested in, sex-only non-love relationships.
the prepared young man brings his own DustBuster
Man, those things must come with a completely different set of attachments where you live.
Right. And despite my reputation here, I am also very picky about the non-sexual qualities of my partners, because it's pretty important to me to like the people I sleep with. I'm just saying, sex and the be-all-end-all or whatever is not accurate in almost any case I can think of, aside from prostitution.
384: I live in a state that bans sex toys. We have to make do with Yankee ingenuity.
Man, those things must come with a completely different set of attachments where you live.
Ever seen Red Dwarf?
Late, but I would hate for Ben and Fatman to be the lone anti-Koons voices on this thread. Jeff Koons sucks.
There's a joke reference in Ruthless People, only one I've ever seen, actually.
385: Never been in a relationship where you found yourself disturbingly willing to overlook glaring character defects b/c of the be-all-end-allness of the sex?
390: Character defects, of course, yes. But not someone without a sense of humor or the ability to make good conversation.
Apo is, I think, reading "sexually attractive" in terms of the former, such that if men are viewed as less sexually attractive as they age, it means they have more trouble picking up chicks, but not necessarily more trouble starting new relationships.
Right, and I'd posit that hook-ups are a better measure of sexual attractiveness than long-term relationships, which have way, way more variables factored into the algorithm.
390: I've never got to the point of having sex before the glaring character defects became apparent.
sex and the be-all-end-all or whatever is not accurate in almost any case I can think of
No one thing is the be-all-end-all, but I think sex is up there. But in part that's because I've come to feel that you can't have really great sex unless you've connected with the other person at a certain deep but obscure emotional level. Or at least desire to be close to some spiritual quality they have, even if you can't "connect" with it. Nothing about people is ever just physical.
Nothing about people is ever just physical.
Except autopsies.
393: Either you are an excellent judge of character, or very, very lucky.
Jesus, I'd feel totally intimidated by someone without any glaring character defects. I just hope to find someone whose defects match up somehow.
396: ...or else sexually self-controlled enough to prolong the pre-sex dating stage. I feel pretty lucky that I can say I only regret sleeping with two of the people I've slept with, despite the massive character flaws in plenty of others. I feel like I make pretty good decisions according to my own standards, but those standards are what I need to survive, and aren't the same as what other people need. They're more picky in many ways, less picky in many others.
396: Or likely to view "willing to have sex with me" as a glaring character defect.
149, 153, etc. - No jesting necessary. We do have lots of space for landfills. But the point about reverse logistics, while not so true until recently, certainly is now because of the price of diesel.
The trend in the industry has been to enormous, private landfills far from urban points of waste generation. The wisdom of those investments is now in question. While I don't cry too many tears for these firms, landfills that are not financially viable today tend to become environmental nightmares tomorrow.
I thought you were a vintner or whatever, froz.
396: I'm lucky to have only had sex with three people? I generally don't feel that way, but it's because I don't get turned on by someone if I don't want to be in the same room as them.
403: Lucky that the character defects become apparent to you before you get yourself all entangled. I realize that I did say "glaring" character defects, which does seem to suggest "readily apparent." Alas, some people can spend decades married to a person (for a totally hypothetical example) before recognizing even the (in hindsight) readily apparent defects. You are lucky not to be such a person.
I have to agree with apo that men's sexuality gets devalued as they age; it's just that almost everything else -- career, status, money, power, possessions -- ramps up, so they're still coded as desirable.
A number of my guy friends have worried about getting to 'that age' (mid-thirties) and being 'that guy' in the bar, who is not old and status-ed enough to be attractive to women on that front, but old enough that he's not going to be getting women based on his looks or his potential.
354: Isn't that the wrong comparison? Obviously I'd have an easier time picking up multiple one night stands in a bar than Apo, because I'm smokin', while Apo has that mullet lurking in his past (and even though he's gotten a haircut since, people can tell). But if we're talking devaluation, the question is how I'd do up against me at 21, versus how Apo would do up against himself at 21.
In my specific case, while I don't have data to rely on, my capacity to acquire casual sex partners if I wanted them probably hasn't dropped off much because it was awfully low back then. But if you take it on an average across most men and most women, I'd surmise that most 21-year-old women would have a significantly easier time picking up men than most 40-year-old women, while most 40 year old men are either not doing that much worse, or might actually be doing better, than their 21-year-old counterparts.
To be fair to Apo's position, nobody looks at the older woman and wonders if she's going to need that little blue pill....
I thought you were a vintner or whatever, froz.
Hydrocarbons, carbohydrates... It's all the same stuff.
most 40 year old men are either not doing that much worse, or might actually be doing better, than their 21-year-old counterparts
At picking up 21-year-old women? No way.
You're probably right that there's a dropoff for most men. My sense is still that there's a more severe dropoff for most women than for most men over that age range.
Cala,
A number of my guy friends have worried about getting to 'that age' (mid-thirties) and being 'that guy' in the bar, who is not old and status-ed enough to be attractive to women on that front, but old enough that he's not going to be getting women based on his looks or his potential.
You have very astute friends. Have you suggested they work on the status side of things? They can also work on their looks, to some extent. Plus if they earn the bucks they can buy their looks.
There is also the supply/demand curve, and of course the push/pull dynamic that is in play in all human interactions. Most women but few men know that pull is SO much better than push, but there is a time and place for everything.
In my experience the hardest part for people seems to be the figuring out of what it is they want. After that some people never get that it is OK to pursue what one wants. People can be screwed up in so many ways.
