Re: Shotgun

1

Wow, that's really sad.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 1:00 PM
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Notice what Reynolds says in his linking blurb:

WELL, THIS MAKES MORE SENSE than that "hated Christians" report, though I suppose the two aren't mutually inconsistent or anything: Police: Accused shooter hated liberals, expected to be killed.

Makes more sense how?


Posted by: beamish | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 1:07 PM
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"Who would have thought, here in Knoxville?"

Heh.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 1:08 PM
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Makes more sense how?

Because Unitarians aren't Christians?


Posted by: zadfrack | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 1:12 PM
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Makes more sense how?

In the batshit-insane-murder is a conservative value sense?

Yeah, I couldn't really parse that one either.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 1:13 PM
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I guess Reynolds was thinking that someone who hated Christians would want to open fire on the most paradigmatic Christians he could find, and those aren't UU types.


Posted by: FL | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 1:14 PM
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Probably relevant: his ex-wife used to attend the church he targeted, he described himself as a "Confederate" and a "believer in the Old South," who's been described as hating "blacks, gays and anyone different from him.''


Posted by: strasmangelo jones | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 1:14 PM
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Oops, left out: links via PZ Myers!


Posted by: strasmangelo jones | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 1:15 PM
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WELL, THIS MAKES MORE SENSE

Hating liberals makes sense to Reynolds.

The guy only picked on liberals because he could be certain they wouldn't be carrying firearms.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 1:16 PM
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8: it's just a church full of people! It's not like god actually lives there.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 1:17 PM
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I thought the update would say the shooter was Instapundit.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 1:17 PM
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IT'S A FRACKING BRICK STRUCTURE.

So too soon to joke about this, yet we do so anyway.


Posted by: FL | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 1:19 PM
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10: Atheists can value human life too, Sifu.


Posted by: strasmangelo jones | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 1:21 PM
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The Unitarian liberals actually showed a lot of old fashioned macho Instapundit-type courage. One shielded everyone else with his body, and two or more pulled him down.

I doubt that Instapundit will feature that. No payoff for him.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 1:21 PM
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Sometimes I wish I was a crazy wingnut, because then I could right a ludicrous, self-congratulatory post about how "I suppose Dr. Myers will say that it would be just as bad if this lunatic had shot up a restaurant or library."

Any crazy wingnuts reading this should feel free to crib that.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 1:21 PM
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12: No, it's not a fracking brick structure, you moron, it's the people inside that got killed.


Posted by: strasmangelo jones | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 1:21 PM
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Really, Stras? I was confused about that.


Posted by: FL | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 1:23 PM
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17: You did seem to be confused about that, otherwise the joke wouldn't have been a joke.


Posted by: strasmangelo jones | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 1:23 PM
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16: stras, I find your anger at Labs's lack of concern for human life touching, but maybe a bit misplaced since he was kidding. You know how ethics types are.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 1:24 PM
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20

Write.


Posted by: John Emerson-W-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 1:24 PM
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21

Only two people, and they were Unitarians.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 1:25 PM
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20: I was just getting into my role. You know how they are with misspelling.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 1:25 PM
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And we should put the cover of the New Yorker in thought balloons, otherwise the joke wouldn't be a joke.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 1:26 PM
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19: The heart of the "kidding" lies in the presumption that the chief offense of the multiple murder was that the multiple murder occurred in a church, just as the chief offense of the wafer-desecration was that it happened to an item considered sacred. The joke makes no sense as a joke if you assume that the murders would have been just as vile in a mundane, non-religious setting; it assumes, essentially, that the notable thing about these killings is that they desecrated a religious structure.


Posted by: strasmangelo jones | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 1:29 PM
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Also, using a multiple-murder to make a joke about how much Labs thinks PZ Myers is a dick? Incredibly dickish.


Posted by: strasmangelo jones | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 1:30 PM
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Only two people, and they were Unitarians.

So, 1.2 people.


Posted by: snarkout | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 1:31 PM
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27

Stras, you're misreading the joke.


Posted by: FL | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 1:31 PM
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28

It's said that if you have to explain why a joke is funny, then it's not really funny. Is it, therefore, also true that if you have to explain why a joke is not funny, then it's really funny?


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 1:32 PM
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29

Now you're really misreading the joke.


Posted by: FL | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 1:32 PM
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30

29: we are kinda being dicks, though.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 1:33 PM
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31

You are what you kinda eat, Tweety.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 1:34 PM
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We're being dicks about making any jokes about a multiple homicide, it's true, but I want to be hated for the jokes that I make, not for the jokes I was misread as making.


Posted by: FL | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 1:34 PM
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This is fascinating: how to explain the joke without explaining the joke? Okay, the Cretan says to you "no Cretans are funny", right? And then hands you a cracker.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 1:34 PM
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34

33: that is not funny. When he was 33, Christ was hanging on a cross for you, Sifu.


Posted by: FL | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 1:35 PM
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35

At least I'm not tofu. Or California cuisine.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 1:36 PM
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32: We're being dicks about making any jokes about a multiple homicide

Well, right. Riding the "Too Soon" dick-train. As it were.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 1:36 PM
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37

You are what you kinda eat

One day, I hope to be a yeti piglet.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 1:36 PM
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38

As I already explained, Jesus (like MLK and Gandhi) was, first and foremost, a dick.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 1:37 PM
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34: when Jesus was my age, he was dead!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 1:37 PM
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40

35 S/B "At least I'm not kinda tofu, or kinda California cuisine".


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 1:39 PM
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41

Jesus is such a dick sometimes.

Also.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 1:40 PM
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42

Stras probably needs to calm the fuck down.


Posted by: Adam Kotsko | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 1:41 PM
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43

31 is hilarious.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 1:42 PM
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44

37: I think it looks like a Yeti insofar as it looks like the Abominable Snowman that Rudolph and Yukon Cornelius run into.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 1:58 PM
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45

Shove it, Adam.


Posted by: strasmangelo jones | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 2:04 PM
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46

I shall indeed shove it, as soon as I finish making love to your mother.


Posted by: Adam Kotsko | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 2:21 PM
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47

Woo! Strasfight!


Posted by: Philoctasty | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 2:24 PM
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48

Again!


Posted by: Philoctasty | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 2:25 PM
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49

Okay, I'm done. What am I supposed to shove, now?


Posted by: Adam Kotsko | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 2:25 PM
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50

I don't think that joke is humorous because it makes the presumption that it would be funny for Kotsko to have sex with stras' mother and therefore suggest she is unchaste, while it really is degrading to all women to suggest such a thing about someone who, in all likelihood, Kotsko doesn't really know, just because she is a woman.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 2:45 PM
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51

I guess now isn't a good time to say that if Stras's mother the shooter's ex-wife attended the church, the rest of the "reasons" he did it are just bullshit?


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 2:53 PM
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52

rap battle rule 1: dont talk about austin's mom


Posted by: lemmy caution | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 3:00 PM
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53

You know, I was wondering about that when I read one of the articles Stras linked. I mean, dress up hatred for the ex all you like, at the end of the day it's the ex, not the ideology, that's motivating. Or it could be that the church combined his two great hatreds.


Posted by: FL | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 3:00 PM
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54

51 is right.


Posted by: lemmy caution | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 3:01 PM
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50 does not take into account the specific libidinal economy in place between the average Western male subject and his mother. That is to say, the purpose of the remark is ultimately not to claim that his mother is unchaste, but simply to confront the son with his mother's sexuality -- which in this case was, I'll admit, a little over-eager in its manifestations, but still satisfying.


Posted by: Adam Kotsko | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 3:02 PM
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51: I'm wondering, if he was as hate filled towards just about everybody as he seems to have been, how the fuck did he end up married to a Unitarian?


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 3:02 PM
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57

Probably a self-hating Unitarian.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 3:05 PM
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58

Perhaps his wife left him when he started to develop the mental illness problem that manifested itself as hatred towards everyone.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 3:07 PM
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59

I'm not sure it's worthwhile looking for a rational reason. Once you've decided that shooting up a church/school/university is the solution to your problems, you're pretty far gone.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 3:08 PM
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60

Cala's so small-minded and judgmental.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 3:10 PM
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61

How would being a self-hating Unitarian manifest itself? Would it be:

-Someone who opposed Unitarian settlements on the West Bank. Or:
-Someone who, secretly and deep down, believes in God.

I also wonder if the shooter had deep seated Unitarian feelings, and was reacting out of Unitarian panic.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 3:10 PM
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62

Well, obviously "my ex-wife is a bitch" isn't really a rational reason.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 3:11 PM
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55: Actually, I always assumed the purpose of such "jokes" was to display dominance over the opponent by implying sexual conquest over his mother -- to objectify the mother as a means of humiliating the son.

I suppose I don't need to point out how gross and infantile I find that kind of humor.

58 strikes me as entirely plausible.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 3:13 PM
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62: You haven't met mine! [rimshot]

Adam, did you turn a Freudian explanation of jokes about having sex with people's mothers into a joke about having sex with people's mothers?


Posted by: FL | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 3:15 PM
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63.1: I was actually just saying to Adam that I wish I were a man, because it would be really sweet to be able to shut down an argument by saying "I fucked your mother." Which you can't do if you're a chick, because that would be all lezzie, and therefore hot. And "I fucked your dad," well, that doesn't work either.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 3:15 PM
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Alternatively, he developed a hatred of everyone and then his wife left him.

He doesn't seem to have hated everyone, though, just people "different than him" and presumably his ex.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 3:15 PM
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67

A: "I fucked your mother".

B: "Go home, Dad. You're drunk".


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 3:17 PM
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65: B, what if you pegged the dad?


Posted by: FL | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 3:17 PM
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You fuck my wife? you fuck my wife?
I AM your wife.
It doesn' matter, you fuck my wife?
Yes. I AM your wife, and I fuck your wife. All right?


Posted by: FL | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 3:18 PM
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Actually, I always assumed the purpose of such "jokes" was to display dominance over the opponent by implying sexual conquest over his mother -- to objectify the mother as a means of humiliating the son.

They are actually jokes, even if you don't find them funny personally. Scare-quotes are inappropriate in this case.

I suppose I don't need to point out how gross and infantile I find that kind of humor.

Thanks, mom!


Posted by: Adam Kotsko | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 3:19 PM
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68: You think? I was wondering about "your mom's a little overeager in the sucking bloody pussy department; might wanna check to see if she's anemic" or something like that.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 3:19 PM
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(And yes, of course such jokes are sexist. They're effective, though.)


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 3:20 PM
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65: I think "Your mom's a lez" would totally work as an argument stopper.


Posted by: zadfrack | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 3:21 PM
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I was actually just saying to Adam that I wish I were a man, because it would be really sweet to be able to shut down an argument by saying "I fucked your mother."

Men do not in fact shut down arguments this way.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 3:22 PM
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75

B, "Suck my bloody pussy" is much more effective than anything a guy could possibly say.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 3:22 PM
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76

I think it would read better as "At least my mom's not a dyke."


Posted by: Adam Kotsko | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 3:22 PM
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77

I was actually just saying to Adam that I wish I were a man, because it would be really sweet to be able to shut down an argument by saying "I fucked your mother." Which you can't do if you're a chick, because that would be all lezzie, and therefore hot.

simply add the phrase "with a strap-on", thus neutralising any potential hotness. You could even try "I fucked your father with etc etc".

The rumours that I am pitching for Ian Martin's job as swearing consultant to the TV series "The Thick of It are unfounded, although I perhaps would have chucked a CV in had the series not been discontinued due to the lead actor's conviction on child pornography charges (sadly true).


Posted by: dsquared | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 3:23 PM
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74: You're saying the guys on this forum aren't men? And I thought I was supposed to be the misandrist.

"with a strap-on", thus neutralising any potential hotness

Really? Prude.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 3:25 PM
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simply add the phrase "with a strap-on", thus neutralising any potential hotness.

I fail to see how this would neutralize any hotness.

And is "neutralise" another one of those words that the British spell incorrectly?


Posted by: zadfrack | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 3:25 PM
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74: that's actually not true. I use that trick whenever I give talks.


Posted by: FL | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 3:25 PM
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81

No, a moment of introspection reveals that I'm right about this; like an excess architectural detail on a cathedral spire, or a single white truffle too many in a risotto, the presence of a large artificial cock simply unbalances the intrinsic beauty of an imagined lesbian tableau. I think that Robert Hughes wrote something to the effect in his book on the Venetian masters.


Posted by: dsquared | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 3:30 PM
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Seems more appropriate her now:

I know that this is sexist, but the time to make a Monica Goodling women-in-prison movie is now. Not after she goes to prison, if she ever does.

Scarlett Johansson will be the lead, of course. A few gruff old lesbians with tattoos, one with a heart of gold. Some heavy-metal / punk lesbians, also with tattoos. Some black hiphop lesbians. And Natalie Portman to be her real love interest.

"Her Bible fell from her trembling hands...."


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 3:32 PM
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83

a moment of introspection reveals that I'm right about this a homophobic prude


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 3:33 PM
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84

I agree, it is both homophobic and prudish to have a response to plastic objects that is more humorous than erotic. Wait, actually 83 is extremely stupid.


Posted by: Fatman | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 3:37 PM
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83: Wait, thinking that two lesbians can and should be able to get by just fine without even a simulcrum of a penis is somehow homophobic?

That said, pegging the dad is definitely the shut-them-up equivalent of screwing the mom. Probably overkill, actually, but still good.


Posted by: Po-Mo Polymath | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 3:38 PM
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Once in high school, my friends and I discussed the possibility of substituting "Your dad!" for the exclamation "Your mom!" The consensus was that it was far too creepy to actually implement.


Posted by: Adam Kotsko | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 3:42 PM
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Oh look! The boys are defensive about finding strap-ons threatening unsexy!


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 3:42 PM
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86: Aha. So the coup de resistance would be "tell me more about that once you're done sucking your dad's cock" or the like.

Good to know.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 3:45 PM
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Pegging is hot. Also, the house strap-on will come in handy when fulfilling your FFM threesome fantasy.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 3:46 PM
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90

Let me be naive here -- does anyone actually say things like "I fucked your mother" out of actual hostility rather than joking about other people who say that kind of thing? I mean, who would take that seriously -- are people getting in arguments with a lost tribe of people whose last contact with civilization was in 1955, and who can still be taunted with their mother's unchastity?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 3:52 PM
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91

So which came first, "fuck your mom" or "I fucked your mom"?


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 3:53 PM
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90: I don't know of anyone who takes "mom" remarks seriously, but substitute an age-appropriate female relative who is known to the person doing the taunting, and it can easily be taken seriously.


Posted by: Fatman | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 3:56 PM
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93

The mom joke may well have entered the language directly as a cliche, without anyone ever taking it seriously.


Posted by: Adam Kotsko | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 3:58 PM
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90: Let's not start estimating the American capacity for irony based on Unfogged mores. As a genuine insult it might be class-marked, but I'm sure it's around.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 3:59 PM
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90: I'm not sure about the distinction you're drawing about joke/actual hostility and the connection to a mother's chasteness. People can say it to be offensive--and to be taken seriously at that level--without intending it to be understood as true claim.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 4:00 PM
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93: I think in more close-knit communities where the taunter is older (and more powerful) than the tauntee and is actually familiar with the tauntee's mom, it would be effective. But sadly, today, in today's atomized society devoid of respect for one's elder townspeople, there are very few situations where it would work today.


Posted by: Fatman | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 4:01 PM
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a moment of introspection reveals that I'm right about this a homophobic prude I speak for Everyman, particularly the working class, not like you liberals.


Posted by: dsquared | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 4:03 PM
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98

I shut down arguments with my brother that way.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 4:04 PM
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99

Do the Welsh work?


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 4:04 PM
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100

Oh look! The boys are defensive about finding strap-ons threatening unsexy!

Is there any chance that if a boy said the exact opposite ("lesbian sex just seems less sexy without a strap-on"), you wouldn't say "Oh look! The boys cannot comprehend good sex without one of their precious phalli being involved!"


Posted by: Fatman | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 4:05 PM
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101

Oh, my God. Nay, I hope that there is a pantheon of gods that they all might take turns smiting yinz guys.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 4:08 PM
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Let me be naive here -- does anyone actually say things like "I fucked your mother" out of actual hostility rather than joking about other people who say that kind of thing?

Uh, I'm pretty sure the phrase arose in this very thread in a hostile exchange, unless I am just totally mistaken and Stras and Kotsko are holding hands and singing kumbaya. That nobody believes for a second that Kotsko has a chance with anyone's mother doesn't mean the joke wasn't itself hostile. And, as Bitch noted, apparently effective in its intended use to shut down an argument.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 4:09 PM
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who wouldn't find an artificial penis that's larger than your own and permanently hard to be a bit threatening? One might as well say that Pennsylvania millworkers shouldn't feel threatened by Chinese competitors who are prepared to work for 50c an hour. As you'd realise if you weren't so bourgeois.


Posted by: dsquared | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 4:09 PM
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104

The exchange started with Stras saying "Shove it".


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 4:09 PM
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105

That nobody believes for a second that Kotsko has a chance with anyone's mother

wrong on so many levels.


Posted by: dsquared | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 4:10 PM
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104: And? Does that somehow undermine the claim that the "joke" wasn't said in hostility?


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 4:11 PM
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107

I noticed this advertising poster at a bus shelter. I thought it would be nice if someone would paste the word "mom" over "dad", but I'm too lazy to do it myself.


Posted by: mcmc | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 4:11 PM
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106: No.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 4:12 PM
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104: And, technically, the exchange started with Kotsko saying Stras needed to calm the fuck down.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 4:13 PM
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There are some very serious dudes in leather pants at a Raleigh club called "Flex" who probably take great offense to the idea of fist-fucking as the subject of humor, you know. Tsk!


Posted by: Robust McManlyPants | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 4:13 PM
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87: To be fair, it's actually lesbianism that I find unsexy. Or rather, as that term is too loaded, something closer to a-sexy. Women who are totally into other women, no interest in men? I'll take their word for it. No matter how cool we think the other is, they'll never feel sexually attracted to me. Not sexy. Can't really say it's threatening, since it seems kind of inborn and not exactly contagious like wildfire.


Posted by: Po-Mo Polymath | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 4:15 PM
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things like "I fucked your mother"

Not that, but saying that someone's mom sleeps around for money in a neighborhood with a lot of single-mom households will get you beaten today, tomorrow, and onwards, especially if it might be true. People just used different ways to insult each other and their families in ways that didn't start lasting conflict. Or it did in the eighties. It's a different insult, though.

"Your momma, your poppa, your green-eyed granny with the holes in her panty" is one I remember.


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 4:17 PM
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113

but I'm too lazy to do it myself.

Me too, but others aren't.


Posted by: beamish | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 4:17 PM
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114

they'll never feel sexually attracted to me

Certainly not with that defeatist attitude.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 4:18 PM
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115

nobody believes for a second that Kotsko has a chance with anyone's mother

I dunno. The bastard's already had two dates with my mom. If he brings a bottle of a nice sauvignon blanc to the third, it's a done deal.

Now, why he keeps going after the AARP crowd, I could only speculate. But to be honest, I'd rather not spend the time contemplating the source of his geriphilia.


Posted by: Po-Mo Polymath | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 4:19 PM
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102, 106:I got that Kotsko was both hostile and intended to be transparently untruthful; I just had the impression that the "your mom" line is intended to imply that the listener would actually care that his mother was being insulted (regardless of the truth value of the assertion), and would react more strongly than to a "fuck you." And I'm having a hard time picturing that anyone commenting here actually has an interaction like that often, or really at all.

But I don't actually know -- I don't get in arguments like that often.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 4:21 PM
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114: True, there are ways. But they're expensive, and I'd probably be left with even smaller niche appeal than I've got at the moment. Since I lack your natural vermillion sexiness, apo, I gotta play the odds.


Posted by: Po-Mo Polymath | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 4:24 PM
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116: I think it has to do with violating the sacrosanct. So, for people who don't have kids, you go after the parents. People with kids, the kids. My general sense is that such is a pretty good way to get under someone's skin.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 4:25 PM
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Zidane, il a frappé!


Posted by: md 20/400 | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 4:27 PM
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118: My general sense is that such is a pretty good way to get under someone's skin.

I get the idea generally, but appealing to one's mother's chastity as something sacrosanct and not to be offended against seems weirdly retro -- I'm not wondering about how the insult worked ever, I'm wondering if it actually still works straightforwardly now. It seems weird to me that it would.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 4:27 PM
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116

There is a bit of a social convention that family members are off limits. So insulting someone's spouse or parent is worse than insulting them directly.


Posted by: James B. Shearer | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 4:27 PM
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I'm wondering if it actually still works straightforwardly now.

I think the answer is "Yes," because I think family is still considered a protected class. I don't think it needs to be focused on her chastity, particularly. I don't think it particularly needs to be the mom. Both are just easy to reach for.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 4:30 PM
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I don't know whether it was ever effective qua insult, but from what I remember as a kid, it was more the equivalent of dropping your gloves in hockey, signaling that somebody was willing to fight over the actual disagreement.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 4:30 PM
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I just had the impression that the "your mom" line is intended to imply that the listener would actually care that his mother was being insulted (regardless of the truth value of the assertion), and would react more strongly than to a "fuck you."

My impression, too. Ergo, I found it offensive and felt compelled to say so.

And I'm having a hard time picturing that anyone commenting here actually has an interaction like that often, or really at all.

One would hope not.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 4:31 PM
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Following on #122: It's a bit like the communion thing. You can (some would say) reasonably assume an intent to offend.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 4:31 PM
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The one bar fight I've been in was on account of a "I just fucked your mom" line I dropped on a guy (he started it by asking if I was at the bar for my coming out party, he was drunker than I thought, it went down hill from there).


Posted by: Chopper | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 4:31 PM
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who wouldn't find an artificial actual penis that's larger than your own and permanently hard to be a bit threatening?


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 4:38 PM
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I think that there is a serious misreading of the exchange going on. If Stras had in fact "calmed the fuck down," then presumably he would've continued the discussion. His saying, "Shove it" effectively ended that line of discussion -- and indeed his participation in the thread.

By contrast, my remarks about fucking his mother have actually started a prolific discussion.


Posted by: Adam Kotsko | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 4:41 PM
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I just realized that LB may be asking whether it still works because people feel they have to protect their mothers' virtue. (Everyone else probably had that already.) But I'm not sure it ever functioned that way in the real world.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 4:43 PM
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a moment of introspection reveals that I'm right about this a homophobic prude I speak for Everyman sexist.

109: Well, Stras *did* need to calm the fuck down. It's not like Kotsko was wrong. And the "making love to your mother" thing was totally funny.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 4:43 PM
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And the "making love to your mother" thing was totally funny.

No, it really wasn't.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 4:46 PM
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131 is right. The funny part was 49, which is hilarious.


Posted by: Robust McManlyPants | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 4:50 PM
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Responding to Stras's hostile remark with an ironic citation of a common hostile retort was probably the best I could do under difficult circumstances. (The irony was really hammered home by the follow-up comment saying I was finished and inquiring as to what I was supposed to "shove.")


Posted by: Adam Kotsko | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 4:51 PM
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This is just conjecture, but I wonder if the "I fucked your mother" insults aren't derivative of the genre of "your mother is a prostititute", which is (1) a common and highly offensive insult in almost every culture; and (2) much more offensive than the mere suggestion that one's mother once had an extramarital dalliance.


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 4:56 PM
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133: Really, the circumstances were that difficult for you? You poor dear. I see now that there was just no other option than a "common hostile (and misogynistic) retort."


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 4:57 PM
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irony was really hammered home by the follow-up comment saying I was finished

I'll note without comment that the second comment followed the first by less than four minutes.


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 4:57 PM
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136: Ah, misspent youth.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 4:58 PM
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Jesu this is meta. I start at the bottom, so what, I have to go thru 100 comments about whether "fuck your mother" is funny or hostile?

Fuck no.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 4:58 PM
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134: I'm not sure. "Fuck you" is an insulting phrase, but I doubt it comes about because wishing that someone would get laid had negative, realist connotations in the past.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 5:00 PM
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I think it has to do with violating the sacrosanct. So, for people who don't have kids, you go after the parents. People with kids, the kids. My general sense is that such is a pretty good way to get under someone's skin.

Kids emphatically do not equal parents in this kind of exchange.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 5:01 PM
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129

"I just realized that LB may be asking whether it still works because people feel they have to protect their mothers' virtue. (Everyone else probably had that already.) But I'm not sure it ever functioned that way in the real world."

I think it did. In an honor culture people feel they have to protect their honor which may mean they are obligated to respond to such challenges.


Posted by: James B. Shearer | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 5:02 PM
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100 comments about whether "fuck your mother" is funny or hostile?

And without ogged around to tell us, how will we know whom the lurkers support by e-mail?


Posted by: KR | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 5:02 PM
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140: Damn right.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 5:04 PM
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My original comment implied that I was already in the process of making love to his mother as I typed. Note also the use of "making love" -- implying a more caring, long-term relationship. One does not generally "make love" to a prostitute or a one-night stand, for instance.


Posted by: Adam Kotsko | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 5:04 PM
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Kids emphatically do not equal parents in this kind of exchange.

I don't know what that means. Both work, one's not available until later in life.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 5:05 PM
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145: I think it means something like, "If you think I got offended about the mother bit, you don't fucking want to see what happens if you start dragging people's children into this sort of crap."


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 5:07 PM
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I don't know what that means.

It's quite simple: tell Di that you fucked her mother, and she'll merely hate you. Tell her that you fucked her daughter, and she'll kill you.


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 5:08 PM
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much more offensive than the mere suggestion that one's mother once had an extramarital dalliance.

I don't know about the fine gradations -- when you're a little kid, the suggestion that your mother had sex with anyone, even your father, is sort of offensive and alarming.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 5:08 PM
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147 pwned and rendered utterly superfluous by 146.


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 5:08 PM
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147: That is putting it mildly. But, as illustration or otherwise, let's leave my daughter out of the discussion, 'kay?


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 5:09 PM
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145: The intent is to start a fight, as I understand it. If I say it, I pretty much do want to see what you'll do when I drag your kid into it. That's why I'd do it.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 5:09 PM
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It's going to be really sad if future archaeologists define this as the thread in which Kotsko threatened everybody's kids.


Posted by: Robust McManlyPants | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 5:10 PM
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Note also the use of "making love" -- implying a more caring, long-term relationship. One does not generally "make love" to a prostitute or a one-night stand, for instance.

Here we see Kotsko in the rare "Your mother is definitely not a whore, but I have been fucking her nonetheless" gambit. This is really a bankshot insult of cuckoldry towards stras's dad more than anything else.


Posted by: Fatman | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 5:10 PM
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151: The question is not about starting the fight. The question is now about ending the fight.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 5:12 PM
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This is really a bankshot insult of cuckoldry towards stras's dad more than anything else.

If we stipulate that stras' mother and father were legitimately united in matrimony.


Posted by: KR | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 5:13 PM
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Ma Mere is hostile, but Tadpole & Spanking the Monkey are funny, except for putting Jeremy Davies in my face which should be illegal. Souffle au Couer is just plain romantic.

Taboo is a stone cold classic, since the loving couple call each other by their relationship during the act. Taboo II not as good, but still a classic, due to the great performances of Kevin James and Dorothy LeMay.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 5:16 PM
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You know what folks? Stras's mother is a real, existing (or once-existing, I don't know the family) human being. You are discussing an actual person who, I dare say, would likely not find this discussion delightfully amusing.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 5:18 PM
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I can't believe we're now trying to divest unfogged of cock jokes and vulgarity.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 5:19 PM
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157: Well presumably not, given that her son had to get his humorlessness from *somewhere*, and his paternity is a complete mystery.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 5:21 PM
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And again.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 5:22 PM
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158: Bitch, I would have thought you of all people would be able to distinguish between "cock jokes and vulgarity" and "misogynistic jokes which draw their humor from the implied degradation of women."


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 5:24 PM
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160: Good point, Apo. I'm going to let go of the balloon now and walk away.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 5:26 PM
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Come up with a single cock joke that isn't on some level sexist, and I'll eat Apo's, uh, cock.

Anyway, I mean, really. "I'll get to you when I'm done fucking your mother" is such a ludicrous insult that it's just silly to get all bent over it.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 5:27 PM
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Apo, pwned by his own self-linkage. That'll show you, stud.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 5:28 PM
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Particularly among people who couldn't pick one another out of a lineup.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 5:29 PM
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157: The battle to exclude "my daughter" jokes, you can win, Di. As for "your mom" jokes in general...when you finish that one, invade Russia in January.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 5:29 PM
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That'll show you, stud.

Mom?


Posted by: Fatman | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 5:30 PM
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Oh, so now having sex with me is automatically degrading to women? Really classy, DK.


Posted by: Adam Kotsko | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 5:30 PM
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168: Well, you have to admit she has a point.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 5:31 PM
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All heterosexual sex is rape, Adam. Don't you know anything?


Posted by: Tassled Loafered Leech | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 5:32 PM
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Come up with a single cock joke that isn't on some level sexist, and I'll eat Apo's, uh, cock.

TEACHER: Class, I'm going to name a word, and I'll call on one of you to use it in a sentence. Billy, your word is "roach".

BILLY: "The cockroach scurried up the wall."

TEACHER: That's good, but leave the "cock" part out.

BILLY: Okay. "The cockroach scurried up the wall with his cock hanging out."

[Apo, I hope you and the Missus didn't have plans tonight.]



Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 5:32 PM
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Today, all sex is degrading to women. It is only after the revolution that truly egalitarian sex will be possible.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 5:33 PM
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Billy is sexually harassing the teacher. Next?


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 5:34 PM
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Ah, pwned already.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 5:34 PM
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The question is not about starting the fight. The question is now about ending the fight.

To be clear, I'm talking about all of this in the abstract. I don't trash someone's parents or his kids to his face because I understand it's a good way to start a fight. And I don't like fights. Also, I took the conversation, from LB on, to be pretty expressly about occasions when one wasn't joking.

But Apo's description--"dropping your gloves in hockey, signaling that somebody was willing to fight over the actual disagreement"--seems accurate: it's meant to push the confrontation to the point where the next obvious, if not necessary, step is to actually fight. Insofar as there is a difference between parents and kids--and I'm willing to believe that there is a difference, as every once-a-kid-now-a-parent says there is--kids are obviously better targets. But that doesn't mean I'm endorsing that behavior.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 5:48 PM
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I'll eat Apo's, uh, cock.

I think for this expression to work you have to promise to eat something that you won't enjoy.


Posted by: FL | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 5:50 PM
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Huh. So I guess I should have beaten up the friend who asked me what I would do if I came back into the room and found her with PK's penis in her mouth, instead of laughing.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 5:51 PM
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177 to 176.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 5:54 PM
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Is PK an NFL quarterback? Because I heard that then his penis belongs to the world, and therefore no longer your concern.


Posted by: Tassled Loafered Leech | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 5:54 PM
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No, he's taking TKD and fencing, in an obvious attempt on my part to make sure he never, ever gets laid.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 5:56 PM
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I've said this before, but when Dukakis failed to respond angrily when he was asked what he'd do if someone were raping his wife, he lost a lot of votes. For all I know he was set up. The question wasn't about criminology or any other policy issue, it was a chance for Dukakis to show he was a real man. He was supposed to treat an abstract verbal statement as a real provocation.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 5:57 PM
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I have a friend who very much loves the "your mom" joke. I've recently been working on the reverse "your mom," in which I relay my mother's complaints about his sexual performance, e.g. "Hmm. That's not what my mom said."


Posted by: BriefestDelurk | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 6:06 PM
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Dukakis totally whiffed a softball, JE. Red meat tossed in front of him, and he asked for more arugula, instead. One does not have to be in favor of capital punishment to have an emotional reaction to the thought of one's wife being raped. As I remember, he really came of badly by trying to take the emotion out of the equation.


Posted by: Tassled Loafered Leech | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 6:14 PM
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It's a characteristic Democratic technocrat Ivy league fluff.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 6:18 PM
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Obama had better practice his snarl in the mirror, for the question, or one similar, is sure to used again.


Posted by: Tassled Loafered Leech | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 6:21 PM
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Obama should brutally beat the questioner, while repeating, "I'll kill you, motherfucker!" Then he would either win the election by an unprecedented landslide or lose by an unprecedented landslide.


Posted by: Adam Kotsko | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 6:25 PM
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Obama should brutally beat the questioner, while repeating, "I'll kill you, motherfucker!"

I think this image will send me to sleep with a smile on my face tonight. Only, with Russert dead, who will be the deserving recipient of Hussein X's wrath? Dowd? Nagourney? Ron Fournier? Brit Hume?


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 7:43 PM
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Dudes, it's a trap. They'll try to get Obama think "I won't make the Ivy League Dukakis mistake" in order to make him appear to be an angry black man. The only way out is for Obama to respond with kung-fu.


Posted by: FL | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 7:54 PM
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Better: as Brit Hume is asking the question, Michelle Obama will appear behind him, dispatch him with a garrote, then fist-bump her husband as he gives a technocratic answer.


Posted by: FL | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 7:59 PM
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Dudes, it's a trap. They'll try to get Obama think "I won't make the Ivy League Dukakis mistake" in order to make him appear to be an angry black man. The only way out is for Obama to respond with kung-fu.

He should chuckle menacingly, then, after theatrically regaining his composure, he should somberly intone, "The best response to that question was composed by one of my favorite country musicians, who once sang 'I'd like to spit some Beechnut in that dude's eye, then shoot him with my ole' .45'".

At a stroke, the electoral votes of Tennessee, Arkansas, and West Virginia would be in play!


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 8:31 PM
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187: Watch, they'll bring back Bernard Shaw to ask it.

Offline all day, so I just got a glance at the original post and then had to do a bunch of other BS before I read the comments. So I had some time to back-of-my-mind imagine where 100+ Unfogged comments might have gone on a church shooting post. Clearly I have a limited imagination.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 8:32 PM
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Clearly I have a limited imagination never read an Unfogged thread before.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 10:25 PM
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I think this image will send me to sleep with a smile on my face tonight. Only, with Russert dead, who will be the deserving recipient of Hussein X's wrath? Dowd? Nagourney? Ron Fournier? Brit Hume?

If it was Gwen Ifill it might help with swing voters. Afraid that he's a pawn of the angry and vindictive Michelle? He puts up with no crap from uppity black women trying to argue him into a corner.


Posted by: CN | Link to this comment | 07-28-08 10:54 PM
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Dudes, it's a trap. They'll try to get Obama think "I won't make the Ivy League Dukakis mistake" in order to make him appear to be an angry black man. The only way out is for Obama to respond with kung-fu.

Obama has to look the guy in the eyes and say, "Revenge is a dish best served cold. I would wait until I was elected President and then crush him with the full force of the US constitution."

Doesn't mean anything, but it would sound hard, and encourage people to vote for him.


Posted by: OneFatEnglishman | Link to this comment | 07-29-08 1:44 AM
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194: Absolutely. Just narrow the eyes, lean back slightly, and say, Don Corleone-style, "Then that man would become my enemy."


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 07-29-08 7:50 AM
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"I'd like to dispute the premise of the question. Everybody knows that the criminal justice system only applies the death penalty if the victim is white."


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 07-29-08 8:25 AM
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How about: "Why don't you make a try at it, and we'll find out what happens?"


Posted by: Asteele | Link to this comment | 07-29-08 10:32 AM
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If Obama really said 197, I'd vote for him twice.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 07-29-08 10:20 PM
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I'd vote for him twice.

Confirming that Walt has, in fact, been influenced by his stay in Chicago.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 07-30-08 2:00 PM
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