I got, like, thirty goddamn dildos.
I'm glad that they had the marching band flash cards because at first I couldn't figure out what "But no P-E-N-I-S-F-A" meant.
IT MEANS HE GETS RESULTS, YOU STUPID CHIEF!
I was confused at first because I assumed the boys would be Greek.
I was thinking maybe it was some variation on an M.F.A.
Do you have a Penis of Fine Arts, M/tch?
No, my penis is down with the gente.
And more of an Arts & Crafts model anyway.
Team Gina, who shows up in Faggette, is awesome in their own right.
15: No, but glitter and popsicle sticks are involved.
No, my penis is down
Maybe Kraab could dance for you or something?
Not until the glue dries! We don't want a glitter all over.
17: It's just I got a little scared when she wanted to stick it on the fridge door.
Just a shout out reminder - thanks for the NSFW tag. I appreciate it.
Did anyone else notice that the Native American member of the Village People was not represented? So racist.
YOU STUPID CHIEF!
You too, heebie?
|>
I'm on the phone with Barack Obama, RIGHT NOW.
Me and 3,000 other labor activists. But he's really talking to me.
||
Are you watching "Fagette" at the same time?
Speaking of "Fagette," there is a misspelling in your title, dear HG.
Are you dancing for him? His penis might be down too.
Alas, no, because I'm actually listening to the call online. That would be awesome, though.
Wow, an Unfogged-linked video that was ideologically progressive in every particular. It's times like this that ogged's absence is most deeply felt.
L-G-B-T-Q-I-L-M-N-O-P!
ideologically progressive in every particular.\
But, but, the Native Americans!
Speaking of "Fagette," there is a misspelling in your title, dear HG.
Fixed! When did I lose the ability to spell?
There's only so much spelling ability to go around all the unfogged posters. W-lfs-n is hogging part of your share.
Maybe it seems a tad too retro to associate Native American traditional ceremonial dress with macho gay sex? Sailors and cops are still fair game.
Kraab, in recent photos Obama has seemed exalted and transfixed, and now I know why. He knows you're there, but it's up to you to make first contact, because he's restricted by his position.
He's surrounded by a ring of evil men who are trying to keep his true friends away from him. You'll have to work your way past them.
32: In your homophobic heart, you were thinking "faggot".
Eloquent, articulate, and clean as far as I could tell. I have no information on the state of his penis, but Democratic politicians generally get a hard-on for labor's money and mailing lists.
37: They often don't respect you in the morning, however.
They never often don't respect you in the morning, however.
But this time it'll be different. I know it will!
M/tch won't let you stripe his star till you've signed his constitution.
76.9% of the women who have slept with Obama think that he "basically" respected them. 21.3% think that he "sort of" respected them. 1.8% can't remember.
I only sleep with the first past the post.
Wait, that was Wilt Chamberlain. We regret the error.
Also, some of the mean-spirited have accused my sexlife of being pole-driven.
I was going to comment and say that the linked video might be NSFW but it was SFKids. But instead I'll report that as I was watching the TeamGina link from Heebie's 14, PK watched it over my shoulder and asked what it was. "They're singing about the kind of girls they like," I said.
He watched a little longer and said, "They don't have very sexist ideas at all, do they?"
m/tch looks good in a veil, but we really need to know how he looks in a garter.
49: awesome in every particular.
I think my favorite part of the video is how happy he looks when he says "I like Rupaul! I like Rupaul!"
"Ok, so the name Athens Boys Choir can be a bit deceiving but you can't blame a Transsexual man living in the Deep South for having a sense of humor about the whole ordeal."
From his bio. (Use of standard pronoun follows self-identification.)
55: But not physically transitioned. He identifies in that direction, M/M/—iFTM.
I kind of think that the "physically transitioned or not" thing is generally impolite to note, isn't it?
Most of the FTMs I personally know are non-physically-transitioning and identify as fagettes, or just "fags." But sure, there are a lot who are on T and at least get the chest done.
I was actually just wondering how he talked about/identified himself, but was too lazy to do any investigation myself.
59: Yeah, what's the difference? Walking around out and trans is a lot bigger deal, socially, than some surgical procedure. That's my opinion anyway, not having lived it. I'm sure you could easily find a diversity of views about that question within the trans community itself.
Based on this "The Riddle of Gender" book I'm reading (highly recommended), a lot of FTMs don't have genital surgery, if only because surgically constructed penii tend not to be functional anyway.
I'm irritated that he's on a midwest tour right now, but does not seem to be stopping here (unless I just missed him in the past coupla days.) Well, maybe he'll come up for the convention.
63: Yes, surgeons haven't mastered that fine art yet, apparently. It seems only God can make a real penis.
62: In fact, I think "passing" is a lot harder for the FTMs who don't take T, and they get harassed/beaten up more often.
OTOH, a MTF friend confessed she became kind of paranoid when she started passing because, before, when she was pretty obviously trans, people would react really obviously to it right away, and she knew when she was in a dangerous situation. When it became less obvious, it means people got a lot closer before they figured it out, and the reaction was a lot bigger and more hostile.
FTMs who don't take T, and they get harassed/beaten up more often.
This surprises me.
66: Well, a lot depends on the context, but certainly situations like that, where someone is angered as much about being "fooled" as they are by what is implied about gender, seem to be ones that can easily lead to violence.
67: Or do you mean more often than FTMs who *do* take hormones? I read it as more often than MTF.
68: Yeah. Transgender Teen's Murder Suspect Snapped
Man Who Said He Killed Colo. Teen He Thought Was a Woman Could Face Hate Charge
From here.
69: I'm not sure what AWB meant, but absent hormones and surgery on either side, it's a lot easier for men to successfully pass as women than it is for women to pass as men.
It's all anecdata, but a FTM of my acquaintance stopped getting beaten up when she started passing. My MTF friend was saying that the intensity of the harassment grew for her, even though the frequency declined, when she started passing.
The two situations do seem somewhat different, in that FTMs are getting increasingly visible (and increasingly "cool") in NYC, while MTFs often still experience a certain kind of secrecy and stigma. I'm talking out of my ass here, as a Park Sloper. A FTM won't make anyone in this neighborhood bat an eye, except as a come-on, but a MTF still turns quizzical heads.
It's all anecdata, but a FTM of my acquaintance stopped getting beaten up when she started passing. My MTF friend was saying that the intensity of the harassment grew for her, even though the frequency declined, when she started passing.
So close with the pronouns, but you slipped up. You can't call both of them "she".
It's all anecdata, but a FTM of my acquaintance stopped getting beaten up when she started passing
Who would be the aggressor for FTM? I assume for MTF it would be the same group as beat up gay men, but I wouldn't have thought that FTM would get beaten up by that group.
70: OMG, that article is really fucking upsetting. It did, however, also provide a link on that page to this soothing image.
You know, one of the things I really like about the video is that it's all about exuberant expressions of sexuality and solidarity. And now we're right back around to "Deviance Kills." Bummer.
Well, I guess we just have to keep struggling. It's getting a lot better, really. No reason to get all maudlin just yet. Somewhere an alienated 13 year-old just saw that video and took the first step to liberation. That's what we have to focus on.
74: Sorry, I make that mistake because when he was beaten up he was still identifying as a woman.
It's getting a lot better, really.
It really is, and it's happening much faster than I would have thought possible.
78 is to say, "It's complicated!" Or at least, it was at the time. Now it is less so.
72: It was really counter-intuitive for me at first, too. But it's a lot harder to disguise boobs and feminine hips than it is to give the illusion of them, is the big thing. I think it helps that the beauty standards for women are already highly engineered and constructed, so people are using to accepting artificiality in women's presentation as "normal", in a way we aren't with men. That the six-and-a-half-foot-tall glamazon with a weirdly androgynous build is huge ideal surely doesn't hurt, either. Figuring out a way to suddenly grow six inches without teetering around in platform boots is a lot harder.
75: Who would be the aggressor for FTM?
Men. Sometimes gay men, which is really upsetting to me personally, though not suprising. An awful lot of FTMs identify as sexually oriented towards men in some way or another.
And an awful lot of straight guys are really uptight about maintaining rigid gender roles.
84: I hear that if you masturbate first, it's easier to maintain rigidity.
AWB is right: If mice can ride frogs and dogs can suckle tigers, then Kropotkin's philosophy of mutual aid can apply to our species as well!
I wish I weren't so easily suckered by inter-species hugging.
You've always been polyspeciesly perverse, AWB.
81: I'd guess that masculine clothes not being particularly transgressive for women is also also makes it easier for MTF to pass than FTM. Someone in a skirt is either a woman or is doing something socially unusual, which means that just putting a skirt on hikes the probability that you're a woman way up. Pants don't do the same thing at all; to get into an unambigiously men-only outfit, you have to look at subtleties like the kind of belt you're wearing, or the shape of jacket. There's no broad category of garment that signals "No woman would ever wear this unless they meant to trangress gender norms."
Of course, back in the day I had no trouble passing without even trying, but I was naturally talented.
Imagine I'd edited the first sentence of that so it worked, would you?
And that I could spell "unambiguously".
The dogs with wild cats pictures depress me, because they all seem to be situations where zoo cats wouldn't raise their kittens. Which strikes me as something that animals under a lot of stress tend to do, and suggests that there's a kind of slavery in keeping those kittens alive by bringing in wetnurses who are better acclimated to domesticity.
93: I thought of that as well, but we were trying to be cheerful here, B.
Even when women didn't typically wear pants in public, it was simply more acceptable for women to cross into masculine self-presentation territory than for men to go the other way. Marlene Dietrich in a top-hat and tails in Morocco was transgressive and sexy; male cross-dressing was portrayed as laughable, usually humiliating.
Right, because women in men's clothes are making a bid at moving up the hierarchy, which is a reasonable thing to do; men in women's clothes are moving down, which is really threatening.
cuteoverload is cheerful
Lions and tigers will interbreed in zoos, even without prison-style crossdressing.
And all the way back to all the Shakepearean heroines running around in tights. (Complicated, of course, by their being actually boys. I wonder how long the career of a boy 'actress' was -- the window between tall enough to be convincingly adult and still prepubescent seems narrow. I guess if you looked for really, really tall boys, you could start them passing as short women by nine or ten.)
97: One pictures lions sketching stripes on their faces with burnt pieces of charcoal, while tigers make themselves wigs.
90: .There's no broad category of garment that signals "No woman would ever wear this unless they meant to trangress gender norms."
Certain kinds of sports jerseys come pretty close, depending on ethnicity/class. But, yeah, pretty much.
Ultimate cross-species awesomeness.
Frightened capybaras make the wigs for the tigers, and no-one talks to the ostriches who all get neck tattoos. Inexplicably, groundhogs have taken control of the weightlifting corner.
The film crew setting up shots for the Monica Goodling picture looks puzzled, except for the guy who knows one of the ostriches.
while tigers make themselves wigs
Nah, they just borrow one of David Bowie's.
Certain kinds of sports jerseys come pretty close
I miss Snoop.
because women in men's clothes are making a bid at moving up the hierarchy, which is a reasonable thing to do; men in women's clothes are moving down, which is really threatening.
I don't think it's that simple a hierarchy. A feminine woman can have higher social status than either a masculine male or a masculine woman, depending on social class and other factors. But a feminine male is always devalued, because of the way masculinity is defined and policed as an achieved status that has to be constantly maintained. Femininity isn't policed or under threat all the time in the way that masculinity is.
The fact that most of the best actors in The Wire will never ever work again is the thing that most upsets me about it being over. Because I am basically the opposite of Ogged, apparently.
Also because all the ones I really have not that much interesting in seeing lots more of are getting lots of work. Daniels in Lost, wtf.
Femininity isn't policed or under threat all the time in the way that masculinity is.
[choke] WHAT? It's not a competition, PGD. I'm pretty goddamn fucking sure that femininity is extremely policed.
Well, that's not entirely fair, I like Daniels' actor a lot; him in Lost was just jarring. But I'm going to be very displeased of the main effect of The Wire on network TV is that I'm going to be assaulted by visuals of McNulty's naked ass in otherwise enjoyable dramas for the next decade.
Ultimate cross-species awesomeness.
Yay!
Obviously the best actor in the Wire was Blume's cousin. Hopefully he works again! (Actually, he works all the time in theater in DC: go see him, DC people!)
Idris Elba seems to have gone off to have a career in movies for black American Christians, weirdly.
There's no broad category of garment that signals "No woman would ever wear this unless they meant to trangress gender norms."
Bubba pants with a big wallet on a chain.
It's all been tried.
106: I wouldn't put it the way PGD did, but there's a point there. Moderate non-femininity seems to attract less shit than moderate non-masculinity. No one's ever given me much shit about not being femme enough, while men I know who I'd say are in roughly the same position I am in terms of gender performance (not working at being transgressive, but not strongly inclined to full performance of the appropriate gender) tend to be really tense about how other men view them.
104 is extremely carefully worded, although it doesn't sound right, and 106 is extremely inflammatory. Maybe think of a way in which 104 can be interpreted generously, AWB?
for example, the femininity of women isn't policed by, say, the committee that promotes people in a corporation, the way the masculinity of men is.
A masculine woman seems to be emulating men, clearly she is committed about getting ahead in the workplace. A feminine man seems to be going out of his way to be less powerful and less serious.
113: for example, the femininity of women isn't policed by, say, the committee that promotes people in a corporation
This is 100% complete and utter untruth.
re: 71 and 72
71 seems obviously right. I remember a couple of articles a while back in which women tried to pass as men [for journalistic rather than transsexual reasons]. Lots of fluff about how they'd successfully 'passed'. Which was total crap. People may have patronised them slightly by going along with the pretence, but they looked nothing like men.
re: 84
Hmm. When I used to wear make-up a fair bit I didn't actually experience that much hostility from other men. The odd comment. While a lot of women liked it, there was (I think) more outright disapproval from women.
re: 98
I've seen all male performances at the Globe in London. You'd be surprised by how quickly you forget that the person you are watching is a man.
114: What if you quote the whole sentence that I wrote? is it still an untruth? if not, then why the selective quote?
Goodbye to this thread.
104 is extremely carefully worded, although it doesn't sound right, and 106 is extremely inflammatory. Maybe think of a way in which 104 can be interpreted generously, AWB?
This is a pet peeve, and it's only because I feel like there's been a lot of this lately, and my saying this is internally self-contradictory (that is, I'm doing to you what I'm saying I wish people wouldn't do generally). But it is my firm opinion that disagreeing with people, even unpleasantly, leads to interesting discussions, while addressing whether people have stated their position in a way that's fair to the third party they're disagreeing with tends to start up nasty flamewars.
Taking issue with how someone's understood your own comments is different, although I still think that even in that context "Jane, you ignorant slut, I meant X, not Y." is going to lead to less longterm unpleasantness than "Jane, how could you be so ungenerous as to interpret my statement of X as meaning Y."
Moderate non-femininity seems to attract less shit than moderate non-masculinity
Yes, but that's not b/c femininity isn't policed or b/c feminine women have higher status than some men. It's because we've grown to accept that it's okay for women to want the perks men have; that doesn't threaten the idea that masculinity is natural, and it certainly doesn't threaten the idea that masculinity is superior--it reinforces it.
What's not okay is for men to divest themselves of those perks, because that *does* threaten both the idea that masculinity is natural and that it's superior.
It's kind of like the social contempt we have for any kind of slumming--it's okay as a lark, if it's done with a sense of irony (e.g., frat boy drag). But seriously and deliberately moving down the ladder? The trust fund kid who blows it all, the pretty girl who acts trashy? Polite people will mock and avoid, and not-so-polite people will get angry.
112: No one's ever given me much shit about not being femme enough
I've gotten plenty of it, and almost always disguised as commentary on the "work appropriateness" of my dress of presentation, when there were plenty of men to hand who were wearing functionally the exact same thing I was.
114 is correct. LB is extremely fortunate. It's also possible that achieving a certain professional/class status protects a woman from some part of that policing, but I can definitely guarantee that in service industry jobs, or working as a receptionist or secretary, or even entering a profession like mine at the bottom level, one's gender performance is under constant policing, from superiors, coworkers, and potential employers. A refusal to signify sufficiently as a feminine woman can make for an extremely nasty work environment. (Probably the nastiest treatment I've ever gotten about my clothes, makeup, and hair was, surprisingly, not at the spa, which was awful, but working as a secretary for a Women's Studies department. Literal pointing and laughing.)
Probably the nastiest treatment I've ever gotten about my clothes, makeup, and hair was, surprisingly, not at the spa, which was awful, but working as a secretary for a Women's Studies department. Literal pointing and laughing.
I've heard you talk about this before and I find it completely bizarre. I've seen how you dress, and I've known lots of WS departments, and I can't imagine you being out of place in any of them. That must have been a seriously fucked-up department.
120: Yeah, I may be exaggerating my non-femminess, particularly in the business context. For suits and such, if you're buying off the women's rack they're clearly gendered; the extent I'm not performing gender at work is pretty limited to flat shoes, no makeup, and unkempt (although not masculinely styled) hair.
Further 120: Also, these were all cases that were not at all along the lines of a situation where, say, I was wearing khakis and a polo shirt, but they were wrinkled and stained and had holes and just weren't work-appropriate because of that, either.
Further further 120, in fact, it was often the case that the male co-workers who were wearing basically the same clothes as I was, were much less well-groomed/kempt. So.
I'd speculate that these are connected to thin-policing, in that a skinny girl can get away with wearing pretty much anything androgynous, stained, whatever, and everyone is going to think it's cute, but the more you weigh, the narrower the social acceptance window.
122: I believe the pointing and laughing happened because I walked in a room where they'd been laughing about the "sad shoes" grad students wear when they could, like, buy awesome shoes instead, and I was wearing ugly, mannish summer sandals. I have fabulous shoes, folks, but I don't feel the need to wear them to my $10/hr summer office job. Jeez.
Okay, how's this. Within the masculinity hierarchy, it's conventional for violence (or implicit or explicit threats of violence) to flow downhill; something that not-terribly-masculine guys I've known seem to talk about is highschool bullying. Being an unsuccessfully masculine man tends to evoke physical threats even when the failures to gender conform are pretty modest.
Failures to be sufficiently feminine tend not to attract violence until you reach a fairly clear level of transgression; if you're short of a level where people who think of themselves as actually queerbashing will notice you, being kind of butch won't make people threaten you physically, rather than socially.
I'm not sure I'm right, but it's something to kick around.
What if you quote the whole sentence that I wrote? is it still an untruth? if not, then why the selective quote?
The whole sentence isn't an untruth, but rather a banality. Of course the two genders are going to be policed in different ways.
THAT'S IT, YER ALL UNDER ARREST!
126: I'd speculate that these are connected to thin-policing, in that a skinny girl can get away with wearing pretty much anything androgynous, stained, whatever, and everyone is going to think it's cute, but the more you weigh, the narrower the social acceptance window.
This was actually exactly the crux of it for me. I'm short, chubby, curvy, and very, very busty, so when I wear something like a polo or work-acceptable t-shirt, it either fits normally but ends up looking "provocative" or "slutty" because I have a big chest - which is "unprofessional" -, or it's so baggy and formless that I look like a frumpy, unkempt sack of potatoes - which is "unprofessional". The differential is kind of amazing, too; wearing a shirt that doesn't fit vs one that does generally means the difference between looking like I weigh about 200 pounds vs about 150 pounds, which is what I actually do weigh. So many people don't seem to realize how much the narrow area of "acceptably professional" clothing relies on having a body where a particular degree of fit is going to translate into a certain profile.
Body types being what they are, this tends to hit women a lot harder just as a mechanical issues (because boobies), but there's a lot of sexism in it too - being as most of my male colleagues have been nerds, there were many who wandered around looking like a frumpy, unkempt, "unprofessional" sack of potatoes, and never seemed to suffer any official censure or comment on it.
131: Yeah, that probably explains a lot of the non-shit I've taken; I'm tallish and lanky when skinny, stocky since I've had kids, but in a weight-range/bodytype where I've always had a pretty easy time with the issues you're talking about.
there were many who wandered around looking like a frumpy, unkempt, "unprofessional" sack of potatoes, and never seemed to suffer any official censure or comment on it.
Indeed. At my old grad school, we were bringing in candidates for a new tenure-track hire, and I remember the saddest-dressing 50ish guy prof in the department made several ruthless sneers at one candidate because her slightly-too-large dress-shirt and pants made her look "tired." "I'm just sayin', no woman dresses like that if she really wants the job."
I'm amazed that people actually make commentary like that mentioned in 133 in public.
Small departments are funny that way. I think people come to feel like they're just talking to their [hateful] family, like it's not really a professional environment.
133: What I've noticed about this that's really started to irk me is how much of what gets marketed to fat women is just ridiculously over-the-top ultra-feminine, even when it seems like the "real" fashions for acceptably thin women has moved towards stuff that's more androgynous, or at least more practical. To an extent it is all out of sync by definition (ie, fat women's fashion is always a year or two behind), but this current trend seems to have been going on for the better part of the decade, now; as if dressing like a five-year-old who's mother really, really likes frilly crap is some kind of propiatiation against being judged as frumpy or the bad kind of androgynous (SNL Pat) or sexless, just because you're fat.
136 further: Although, I guess in some degree it's a reaction to the kind of crap that was marketed to fat women before, which didn't even make the pretense of stylishness or fashionability or fit, so it's still progress.
136: OMG, totally. My mom, who is a short size 22, simply cannot find anything appropriate for the office, when she has a job. Larger-women's sizes in department stores are full of disgusting frumpy reindeer-sweatshirt-type crap, and half of all of Lane Bryant's stock is, by weight, ruffles, and all in leopard-print or hot pink. She feels one of the main reasons it's so hard for her to get a job is that no one, but no one, seems to see an overweight woman as a person who belongs in any kind of professional environment.
I feel that's also true, in a sense, for women in our 20's, in general. If you're not shopping super-high end and aren't an Ann-Taylor type, it's all party clothes. No, I don't need to be able to seamlessly transition to an all-nighter at Ruff Club after a day of teaching, thanks.
Note I didn't say that women (as individuals) weren't under threat or policed in many ways -- women are under physical threat in ways men aren't, and take all kinds of hits about looks -- but that the gender performance of femininity wasn't as important to that. What is the woman's counterpart to being a Not Being A Real Man? A sissy? A faggot? Of course, I've never been a woman, so it's entirely possible that I've missed things internal to women's experiences that are quite analogous to that. But I think women sometimes miss how deeply those forms of constraint can run with men and how complex they can be.
Here's an excerpt from an interview with Norah Vincent about her excellent book Self made Man , an account of disguising herself as a man for a year and "passing" in various all-male settings. She's talking about the difference between her female persona and "Ned", the identity she used when passing. It gets at some of the things I'm talking about.
Having lived as both a man and a woman, it seems to me now that the definition of womanhood, at least as I live it and as I believe our culture defines it, is so much larger, can happily encompass so much more, than the definition of manhood. I can borrow from the boys--wardrobe, mien, temperament--and still be all woman. The reverse is not really true, or at least it wasn't for Ned. He had to shed all my female qualities and, as a result, became much smaller. I like to say that in that respect Ned can fit in Norah's pocket.
I was going to tell a funny story about a MTF post-op with whom KJ and I used to have coffee every week but now it's more gender wars, so, wevs.
119: and as you can probably guess, I don't think men and women in modern Western societies are related in a straightforwardly hierarchical way, nor that the act of crossing gender boundaries is similar to moving up and down a linear hierarchy. A man cross-dressing strikes me as very different from a rich man dressing as a poor man, a white man dressing as black, etc. There probably is an element of betrayal, though.
Anyway, all this changes with time -- male gender roles are more flexible than they used to be. I'm not old, and just in my personal memory the change in the status of gay men is just astounding.
Out of the thread...opinions given, all 1000-comment gender battles will have to proceed without me!
You all could find the path to gender equality in the police where everyone wears the same thing. Sure, maybe not the most fashionable piece in the closet, but the upside is having the city pick up the tab for the uniform and the dry cleaning.
OK, I'm sorry, really I shouldn't have posted at all where I knew there could be potential disagreement along these lines. The management shoudl feel free to redact the last two if necessary.
I feel bad about depriving the collective of funny stories. C'mon, McManly, please?
139: Will it suprise you to hear I personally, and basically ever FTM or genderqueerishing woman I know who read it, hated that book with the firey passion of ten thousand sons?
Of course, I've never been a woman, so it's entirely possible that I've missed things internal to women's experiences that are quite analogous to that. But I think women sometimes miss how deeply those forms of constraint can run with men and how complex they can be.
I agree that in general, most people - male and female - really do seem to have less of an idea of the ways in which patriarchy/gender enforcement is harmful to men, in part because masculinity is constructed in a way that it's just that much harder for men to even talk about it. But yes, you are missing a lot of things; one of the crappiest things about the enforcement of feminity and the beauty ideals is how much they reinforce each other. It's not at all coincidental that the easiest way to insult a woman's appearance is by saying she looks like a man.
Not even getting into all the crap that butch, genderqueer, consciously-different-from-the-mainstream-in-gender-expression women get about that, here; I'm talking about cisgendered women who identify as women and value the feminine ideal for themselves, here.
142: I don't think that's true at all. First off, they were all men, weren't they? And secondly, Sting often wore a yellow-and-black striped jumper, which is on account of why he was called "Sting", innit?
You know what's lame? People constantly acting like the fact that all these threads erupt in gender wars is the fault of us cranky, offense-takin' women.
Further to LB's observations above (112, et seq), to the extent my firm is at all representative, femminess in female attire seems almost a hindrance to advancement. Ironically, also an apparent must for hiring.
138: disgusting frumpy reindeer-sweatshirt-type crap && half of all of Lane Bryant's stock is, by weight, ruffles
I have a friend who refers to this as "fatty punishment clothing".
Also, would it be bizarre to describe that video as "cute"?
Perhaps not ironically per se, the world of business clothes for wealthy larger women is neither so frumpy nor so rigidly gender signalling.
It's not at all coincidental that the easiest way to insult a woman's appearance is by saying she looks like a man.
Heh. Just last week another associate pointed out that my boss and I had dressed as if we'd called to coordinate that morning. Khaki pants, blue button down shirts. He commented that our department head was also dressed similarly that day -- "it's sort of the standard, guy business casual uniform." And of course my immediate response was, "What, so you are saying my attire is manly?"
I'd be interested to hear from some men about what PGD's talking about; 139 is interesting if problematic. The suggestion's not unfamiliar, of course.
but that the gender performance of femininity wasn't as important to that. What is the woman's counterpart to being a Not Being A Real Man? A sissy? A faggot?
I'm having a little trouble understanding the first clause there. It is true, in my experience, that a woman who's not terribly feminine isn't under threat (isn't a threat) as much as she's simply dismissed. Then again, while I don't adopt the standard feminine trappings in full, I'm not very butch. The most common negative response I receive is dismissal or actual sneering (due to unshaved legs). Maybe the latter is close to a judgment that I'm not a Real Woman; that is, some people are downright viscerally disgusted by hairy legs on women.
Bah, on preview, after an interruption -- this need not be discussed.
We have had these kinds of 'Which sort of discrimination is worse?' threads before, regarding this and other topics, and had generally agreed, I thought, that there can be no measurement or comparison. Just differences.
150: How much of that is that you can make anything look less frumpy if it's at minimum custom-tailored, made of high-quality materials, and festooned with very very very expensive jewelery? I notice a lot of wealthy women in pantsuits who manage to look as if they haven't fallen into the uniboob/formless-potato-sack trap, while objectively totally having fallen into the uniboob/formless-potato-sack-trap.
Sort of like, "yep, that's a uniboob... which is covered in jewelery which probably costs more than my car".
And secondly, Sting often wore a yellow-and-black striped jumper, which is on account of why he was called "Sting", innit?
Now I'm imagining if they made the chubby cops wear a bumblebee outfit on patrol. Awesome.
153: well, yes, I think that's the deal: there are explicitly fashionable rich women's clothes which are neither fitted nor embarassingly frilly. Even for rich women they aren't easy to find, though.
154: incredibly awesome, indeed.
I saw a very obviously wealthy woman in the more upscale of my local groceries the other day, wearing what would have been a mumu on a poorer or lesser woman. It was multipart and layered, and very impressively architectural and engineered, apart from being in these amazing fabrics (must have been silk, I think) in different subtly different patterns and hues, that looked impossibly cool and shifty-because of the layering. Very impressive, especially since she must have been at least seventy and was also really obviously kind of infirm (I wound up behind her in checkout and inadvertantly tailing her across half the parking lot). I shudder to think how ridiculous anything even remotely less expensive would have looked, though.
If you're not shopping super-high end and aren't an Ann-Taylor type, it's all party clothes.
Preach it. I find it especially hard trying to dress up for teaching. I'll wear whatever, and I don't worry about it too much, but in part that's because there aren't a lot of options on a grad student budget that hits the sweet spot between casual and too professional. It's not really a big deal, but I wonder what a 29-year-old is supposed to be wearing: my options are pretend I'm 15, or pretend I need a suit.
158: Dressy casual is age-appropriate, but not budget appropriate. Are there any good used clothes stores?
I wear muu-muus in public now, what with living in Ventura and all. *With* white-and-gold cork-soled platform flipflops, thankyouverymuch. It's totally freeing.
In retro, apologies for 161: I hadn't caught up on the thread yet and yes! I was totally thinking Ann Taylor. Yet again.
I teach in a lot of clothes from The Gap. Or The Limited. Their pants fit me in a way I like.
Now I'm imagining if they made the chubby cops wear a bumblebee outfit on patrol.
They'd get laughed at everywhere they went... until the end of the video, where they'd find all the other chubby cops in their bumblebee outfits and they'd all frolic in a field.
they'd find all the other chubby cops in their bumblebee outfits and they'd all frolic in a field. shout and some teenager and steal his skateboard.
I'm distressed to see "uniboob" used as in 153. I had used this exact term to refer to my beer belly, as a way of convincing myself I has sexually transgressive and shit instead of just fat and lazy.
I can haz sexually transgressive?
You all could find the path to gender equality in the police where everyone wears the same thing. Sure, maybe not the most fashionable piece in the closet, but the upside is having the city pick up the tab for the uniform and the dry cleaning.
There was a bit of a row in the UK when the police went over to wearing ballistic armor, because the equipment didn't fit properly on large-breasted women.
It was multipart and layered, and very impressively architectural and engineered, apart from being in these amazing fabrics (must have been silk, I think) in different subtly different patterns and hues, that looked impossibly cool and
If you layer your Eileen Fisher plus-size stuff the way it's shown on her web site you can easily end up wearing a thousand dollars worth of clothes, before the shoes and bag, and it only gets you to business casual at best. I buy on sale or I buy last year's on eBay, and it's still more than I want to spend. More businesslike, less fluttery high-quality plus-size clothes: Marina Rinaldi. Their prices make Eileen Fisher look like an amateur.
170: YOU LIVE! Yay. Mike was being a gigantic wimp about getting out of his chair to send you my greetings, so: hi! I'm glad the 3***arch codebase and relentless march towards release hasn't killed you!
Hahahaha. He can greet me on your behalf via IM without unassing. Nice to see you around unfogged again :)
I have been in this business for half my life and this is, I believe, the hardest I've ever worked. And I'm not going to let it kill me.
From what I've seen, yeah, I can believe that. Every time it comes up, I keep suggesting to Mike that after everything has come back from Sony &etc, y'all should have like... a dramatic reading of the 3*** code.
Not that I have seen any of this code, of course. Because that would be against any number of NDAs, and wrong, and illegal, and wrong. No. Certainly not. What is this macro dude you speak of?
I certainly never once came up for a rudimentary set of rules for a 3*** drinking game. No. Not me.
What is the woman's counterpart to being a Not Being A Real Man?
I believe that's called "Being Un-Feminine," PGD. And don't be fooled by the fact that chicks don't all wear dresses anymore; there are still very specific codes for Being Feminine and penalties for transgressing them.
Are there any good used clothes stores?
There are some. Hit or miss, of course. And alas, Ann Taylor is serviceable, but their stuff is cut very narrowly across the shoulders, which doesn't work for me.
176: It strikes me that it would be fascinating to see a website similar to the body-types (and weights) site Ogged dug up a while back that depicts masculine and feminine postures. An idle thought, really, since I tend to assume we're well aware of these things: women cross their legs demurely at the knee, men put an ankle up over the opposite knee, and so on.
178: Actually, it's probable there's a lot of subtleties that we don't really register; leg-crossing would just be one of the more obvious ones. Not a bad idea at all.
178: I wonder whether hoisting your legs up to sit indian style in whatever's at hand is masculine or feminine; I'd like to claim gender transcendence on this one, but I bet it's much more a "female" behavior than I've been thinking it is.
180: You're just jealous because you have not yet had the excruciating, brain-rending pleasure of observing the monstrous, unholy architecture of failure that is Macro Dude's handiwork.
women cross their legs demurely at the knee, men put an ankle up over the opposite knee
Anti-Continentalist.
180: You're just jealous because you have not yet had the excruciating, brain-rending pleasure of observing the monstrous, unholy architecture of failure that is Macro Dude's handiwork.
Nnnooo, I'm just ever-so-gently griping about comments that are incomprehensible to everybody reading this save you two.
179: Yeah. I figure the ones that come readily to mind are, well, the obvious ones. Crossing of arms, casting of an arm across the back of a chair. I catch myself periodically doing the limp-wrist thing -- hand hanging down from the wrist. Female.
Undoubtedly there are written catalogues of these things, but I'm not sure the subleties can be captured without photos. I keep thinking video is needed for gestures as well as postures, but in that case we just have real life and movies to work from. Still.
Someone funnier than me needs to make a joke about 183, and taking best results into consideration, I nominate W-lfs-n.
hoisting your legs up to sit indian style in whatever's at hand is masculine or feminine
I do this all the time, including at work.
"Nomination" can also refer to the process of eating something while saying "nom nom nom." Be careful!
189: You forgot a syllable. /w-lfs-n
And the prefatory "om" is assuredly not obligatory.
182: True! I almost included a disclaimer about all this being culturally relative, but it kind of goes without saying.
Sitting 'indian-style' is probably more female, but not as much attaches to it, I don't think. What do guys do when they sit on the floor, then, if not indian-style? I can't envision it for some reason. You don't sit with your legs sticking straight out.
I mean, shouldn't that be "nomation" or "nomizing" or something?
women cross their legs demurely at the knee, men put an ankle up over the opposite knee, and so on.
Some of this has to be anatomical differences. I couldn't cross my legs demurely at the knee if I wanted to. Which sucks because putting my foot up on my knee makes my foot fall asleep.
Or even just "nom", as in, "I sure nommed the fuck out of that tasty sammich"?
How does one nom a fuck?
Sandwiches have fuck?
I'm just ever-so-gently griping about comments that are incomprehensible to everybody reading this save you two.
It's kind of the inverse of violating the sanctity of off-blog communication.
I got all, like, nom on its ass.
Sandwiches have fuck which can be extricated by nomming, Sifu. You don't nom the fuck itself. Can't you read?
Someone in a position to should go "nom nom nom" during oral sex and see what happens.
I mean, shouldn't that be "nomation" or "nomizing" or something?
It could be, but I feel that this would be less gratifying, and so I disprefer it.
201: definitely related, though. Violating the seperation of on-blog and off-blog communications.
203: once one has nommed the fuck, is it really a sandwich that remains? Or is it a mere husk, a thing that were once a sandwich?
204: ... yeeeeeeaaaah, about that.
I have also been known to chastise my friends and intimates, who are under some kind of stress or illness, and for whom I have prepared a meal, to "eat your noms" or even "nom your noms".
204: Someone in a position to should go "nom nom nom" during oral sex and see what happens.
Lurker maybe?
I guess that depends on whether or not it started out as a fuck sandwich, Sifu.
203: once one has nommed the fuck, is it really a sandwich that remains? Or is it a mere husk, a thing that were once a sandwich?
Is this similar to an unconsecrated sandwich?
definitely related, though. Violating the seperation of on-blog and off-blog communications.
Totally. Hey, remember that conversation we had at Deep Ellum?
I don't see how 207 is actually "about" 204 unless the meals Lunar prepares are … oh.
Well, that's very good of you, I guess.
210: do non-fuck sandwiches still have extricable fuck? Seems like that might dilute the force of the term.
211: Is this similar to an unconsecrated sandwich?
Nah, I'd totally nail that sandwich.
212: oh, totally. Is that relevant right now or what?
Of course non-fuck sandwiches have extricable fuck. It gets in there ineluctably during the sandwich-making process.
Ah, the ineluctable fuck of sandwiching.
214: Actually, to be all unfunny - nah, 'nom/noms' for both 'eat' and 'food' is just general parlance now. Because we are tedious internets people.
I fear that I would look at someone very strangely if they told me to nom my noms. Then again, I said to my roommate not long ago, "Dude, you didn't refill the ice trays!" and got a very bad reaction. (To the "dude" part.)
221: Are you sure you're on the right blog?
221: Because we are tedious internets people.
Anymore we are.
219: The phrase you're looking for is "the Dutch Vice," Sifu.
It strikes me that it would be fascinating to see a website similar to the body-types (and weights) site Ogged dug up a while back that depicts masculine and feminine postures.
Oooh, yes, great idea.
I was kind of ashamed recently when I realized that the reason the Adam Sandler poster in the subway was making me so uncomfortable was because my unconscious reaction was "Men can't do that!"
You can rationalize it as too many years of hanging out with mediocre male dancers and seeing how much their hamstrings really can't do certain things, but I am afraid it's just bigotry. Gender-boundaries violated: Wince.
You must trust in Van Damme, Witt.
228 is pretty funny. I like how the two women have obviously been told to just jiggle in place and not get in Van Damme's way. Even when they are supposedly "dancing," their feet are hardly moving.
The pointless clearing-of-table-with-sweep-of-arm is also amusing. What, they just had some extra crashing of glass sounds they needed to use up?
(But! I will pedentically note that even Mr. Van Damme does not have the extreme extension one sees in the Zohan poster.)
229: he can do it, though. He does it in Bloodsport, in a gay-ass clip sadly missing from youtube.
Kickboxer really was one of the worst movies ever made. Goddamn.
And as long as you're in this thread, I should confess that I had a dream last night in which Blume was ultra-kindly and tactfully explaining to me why not all of the Unfogged commenters could be invited to your wedding. Even in my dream I could see the practical issues; I believe I nodded sagely and sympathized about the horrible cost of weddings these days.
(I'm kidding; in the dream I think I was about 20 and nowhere near sage.)
I should confess that I had a dream last night in which Blume was ultra-kindly and tactfully explaining to me why not all of the Unfogged commenters could be invited to your wedding
Ahahahaha! Well, we if we had to break the news somehow, we figured why not do it Freddy Krueger-style?
Omit leading "we".
Too late, you're already clearly down the path to couples-thinking.
229: he can do it, though.
You bet he can. I've shamelessly enjoyed VanDamme flicks, though I don't know which ones I've seen.
Blume was ultra-kindly and tactfully explaining to me why not all of the Unfogged commenters could be invited to your wedding
In my dream she said "Of course you all are invited. Mind you, I should warn you that it's a dry county, so we'll be serving sherbet ginger ale punch in lieu of a bar at the reception."
Mind you, I should warn you that it's a dry county
Where I can legally set foot? Not likely.
I've shamelessly enjoyed VanDamme flicks, though I don't know which ones I've seen.
I'm guessing this one.
204: Some of us want to have oral sex more than once more.
241: What, people don't laugh during sex any more? Kids these days.
re: 229
As Tweety says, he [Van Damme] can do it. Also, I know men who can do the full side split like that. Martial artists, though, rather than dancers.
There's no anatomical reason why men can't do it.
Thomas Kurz [he of 'Stretching Scientifically'] has built a whole career out of producing books and DVDs teaching people how to do the full split.
The full split. I'd like to try to get back in to that. I could do it when I was a preteen (gymnastics) and then got back to it a few years ago, but then hurt my back. I think I know what it would take. A slow process, but so good. This is just on the floor, though, not in midair. big difference.
What is the woman's counterpart to being a Not Being A Real Man?
I have an entire email from UNG outlining the answer to this in exquisite detail... The very best I can sum (and clean) it up is that being a Real Woman means being Accommodating. Real Men take charge of their lives. Real Women take care that their lives don't inconvenience anyone else in any way.
Real Women take care that their lives don't inconvenience anyone else in any way.
Such as making someone take the time to have to explain that.
Sweet - I used to live next door to that Katz, before the Boys Choir went on the road and never stopped. They helped get us our dog. We were vegetarians at the time, which disappointed the dog enormously. Meanwhile, next door the Boys Choir and the women's rugby team would be having giant barbecues, causing the dog to completely wig out and fling herself against the fence. Gender-wise, I can say that I knew Katz by a first name that now may or may not be gender appropriate, and find myself confused as to which name and pronoun to use. Damn our partially gendered grammar!
245: Right. Not being a real woman = being selfish.
di, at some point in the breakup, did you ever give him a good kick in the nuts? Is it too late now?
Not being a real woman = being shellfish.
251: Are you challenging Sir Kraab's womanliness?
249: Well that wouldn't have been very accommodating, would it?
Er, I meant was 250 challenging Sir Kraab. You know shellfish, crab... Gah. I was funny once.
Self-biting comments are the hot new thing!
nomnomnom
in my language it means book
bookbookbook, funny
we say buvar-buvar to represent eating sounds (u luke oo in book), Japanese say pari-pari, Russians am-nyam-nyam to my knowledge
267: More traditional in English would probably be "chomp chomp chomp", where "chomp" and "nom" have the same vowel.
Mongol nom, "book", also can mean "sutra", if I'm not mistaken, and traces back to the Greek nomos "word, name, reason" via Nestorian Christianity.
Source: Lessing's Mongolian-English Dictionary.
sutras are sudar in Mongolian or sometimes shastir
we call religious books that
nom is generic book
Actually, I looked it up again, and according to Lessing nom means "dharma" or religious teaching. A little like the English The Good Book, which only means The Bible.
Lessing tewnds to favor old-fashioned meanings.
calendars for example we call 'tsagiin khurd', but also khuanli, is it a Chinese word?
i mean it's great if it's all the way from Greek, nom
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