I believe some wingnuts claim this has already happened, but it was debunked.

1: Yes, and Scalia cited it in his opinion in a case recently. Gad!

I'm disappointed in the number of news organizations who've accepted the new "war crimes" definition.

2: Do you know which one, JP?

Also, 66 months means whoever wins in 2012 is going to be making some of these decisions, unless the sentence is reduced (and this doesn't seem like the kind of situation where that's possible).

Here it is, his dissent in Boumediene. Call it the Rule of Urban Legend.

2- Like I said, some wingnuts believe it.

5- No, it's 66 months including time served of 61 months (hence the post title.) He's out in December.

5 - No, he's out in 5 months. He gets credit for time served.

5:Hamdan gor credit for time served, eb, and should be released in December. Or given POW status.

But as Becks says, the Bush admimistration will likely keep him locked up as an "enemy combatant." Who know what Obama will do.

Ah, I didn't read the articles, obviously. But many of you have.

10- Hire him as the White House chauffeur, of course. They should have included that on the NYer cover.

12: Hire him as the White House chauffeur, of course

At least people would get out of the way of the motorcade then.

I'm basically hoping Generation Awesome saves us some time down the line. I don't think we have the will to fight to take away their lawyers' authority at the moment. Instead, the argument is going to lay dormant until just such an occasion as Becks describes.

Ok, this particular driver maybe should be released.

But if there is, in whatever sense, a "War with al-Qaeda" I think the capture and internment of the enemy is reasonable for the duration, within Geneva Conventions and Red Cross supervision.

If it is not a "war" but an investigative and police/criminal matter then Hamdan should be released. But I think we can blame Congress:the various laws passed since 2001 have created a war where none may actually in reality exist.

15 corrected. To the extent America has ever been at "war" since WW II, I do believe we are still at war with al-Qaeda and the Taliban. The AUMF is still in force, and I do not expect that to change.

Hamdan then would remain an enemy soldier. We certainly retained German truck drivers during WW II.

We have, of course, released POW's in time of war, eg Civil War, usually under some conditions and personal bonds.

I'm basically hoping Generation Awesome saves us some time down the line.

I'm not understanding this part, Tim. The battle between Congress and the Supreme Court over various decisions in the last several years has been exasperating and somewhat baffling (repeated Congressional moves toward redefinition in order to avoid being bound by S.C. decisions); but the battle has gone on, and Boumediene finally seems somewhat decisive with respect to habeas rights. Albeit a close decision.

Do you mean that we don't have the will to shackle the Dept. of Justice?

Actually I just don't understand how Generation Awesome is going to help. ??

Finally, it very clear that Obama, based on what he has said about Afghanistan and Osama bin Laden, wants the war to remain in place.

Under ideal conditions you do not use air power or other distance weapons against criminl targets, because the RoEs are tighter and tolerance for "collateral damage" are much lower.

And to be honest, I am still more concerned about the women & children who will die when Obama targets Osama than I am concerned about Hamdan.

Step One: Generation Awesome
Step Two:
Step Three: Freedom!

17: Ultimately, the battle is about what the Establishment authorizes as a credible position to hold for an ambitious lawyer who wants to get ahead. Conservatives felt they were getting screwed by liberals / the Left for a long time and, as I understand it (based on v., v. little) sort of stumbled into creating their own authorizing infrastructure in the Federalist Society, which ended up working like gangbusters.

But Dems/Blues/whathaveyou are well positioned in the Establishment machinery to kick people the fuck out. (The joys of owning the educational machinery.) They just don't want to fight that fight, because...well, because it would take a lot of work, and for various, often credible, reasons, they think those little Right fucks are correct and useful. And, so, we're just going to let this shit slide for a while.

But Generation Awesome doesn't have the same set of beliefs about the utility of those people and might actually push back, hard. But it's going to be a while.

I don't see how a nation can be at war with a non-nation. Apparently what we're at war with, anyway, is
"terror". If the Taliban and al Qaeda ceased to exist, would the war be over? No. It will go on forever.

Would you say that you are terrified of polemocraty, John?

20: Hm. Okay, I'll think about this.

No, Ben. Because once I'm in terror, I am the enemy, and they'll send a drone after me. No terror here, no sir.

Nice try, though.

This is how out of touch with the world I am. I see this headline on the NYT website:

Gates Endorses $20 Billion Bid to Aid Afghans

and for a tenth of a second the thought flashes in my mind: Bill Gates is putting money into Afghanistan? Wow!

Yeah, I know, pathetic.

I'm not gonna wait for GA, Tim. I'll be thrilled if they get on board with what we older folks are doing, and I'll support whatever pushback they dream up on their own, but the longer we wait the more this hellish structure will start to ossify. No way do I want the bones of this administration as the skeleton for the next one.

Finally, it very clear that Obama, based on what he has said about Afghanistan and Osama bin Laden, wants the war to remain in place.

I'm no fan of Obama, much less a fan of fans of Obama, but I do think this is unfair. It's not that Obama positively and actively wants war; indeed, I'm reasonably certain he doesn't want war at all.

What Obama wants is to be elected to the US presidency. And it's worth noting that he didn't, you know, actually and actively create the mess that he will be expected to clean up once elected to the presidency. Unfortunately, in America 2008 (and in America 2004, and so on and so forth), the goal of ending the ill-conceived and misbegotten and quite stupidly named "War on Terror" is probably (almost certainly) incompatible with the goal of being elected to the US presidency. I don't personally blame Obama for his having to compromise between principled position and pragmatic electability concerns, but I do blame some of his supporters for pretending/fantasizing that his main competitor for the party nomination was somehow uniquely, and apparently quite monstrously, awful for her more honest and forthright acknowledgment of the realpolitick need to do the same.

There may be more danger from a generation that grows up thinking the Bush administration approximates what's "normal" than from one that remembers otherwise.

but I do blame some of his supporters for pretending/fantasizing that his main competitor for the party nomination was somehow uniquely, and apparently quite monstrously, awful for her more honest and forthright acknowledgment of the realpolitick need to do the same.

No one said she was unique. Indeed, it's precisely because she wasn't unique that she had to be punished for her vote. For the instruction of l'autres. Next time, maybe they think twice about a similar vote.

MC, Hillary was always one of the people making it hard for Democrats to oppose the war. Starting from the beginning the leaders of the Democratic Party did what they could do to marginalize war opponents, and Hillary was part of that. I'm not at all sure that it was realpolitik. A lot of Democrats are just hawks.

it's precisely because she wasn't unique that she had to be punished for her vote.

Exactly. And I'm going to be very angry if Evan Bayh ends up on the ticket. Futilely angry, to be sure, but angry all the same.

Indeed, it's precisely because she wasn't unique that she had to be punished for her vote. For the instruction of l'autres. Next time, maybe they think twice about a similar vote.

Funny how it's they who voted, but then it's she alone who had to be "punished" for their/her vote (which vote I don't, and never did, support, by the way, but then, I don't believe for one New York minute that Obama would have voted differently had he been called upon to do so: pure conjecture and speculation on either side, of course, but I believe the cumulative weight of the circumstantial evidence tends to favour my own "what-if" interpretation, and whatever anyone says in opposition/objection is also a "what-if" interpretation too).

So when Obama doesn't think twice, or perhaps does think twice, and even maybe thrice or more, and then still votes the wrong way, well, so much for en instruire les autres. Re:, for example, his recent FISA vote, for those who profess to be shocked (shocked! I tells ya) and deeply dismayed, I have no sympathy.

Funny how it's they who voted, but then it's she alone who had to be "punished" for their/her vote

Find Mr. Peabody, get him to lend you his time machine, get them to run for President in 2008, and we'll punish them, too. We're tough but fair.

But then, I don't believe for one New York minute that Obama would have voted differently had he been called upon to do so

Doesn't matter at all. I never understand why this is so hard for people to get. It's entirely possible that someone else would have done the same thing as Jeff Skilling had they been in his position, but...how that's relevant to anything, I don't know.

for those who profess to be shocked (shocked! I tells ya) and deeply dismayed

You'll be gratified to know that doesn't include me. Just to set your heart at ease.

You'll be gratified to know that doesn't include me.

So you're fine with Obama's recent FISA vote, is what you're saying?

Fair enough, and duly noted.

Well, I'm not shocked or dismayed, in any case.

Pretty much any liberal over 30 is quite used to being let down by Democrats, MC, and heaven knows I'm beyond being surprised by it. However he would have voted on the war is, as you note, completely hypothetical and, as Tim notes, quite beside the point. He doesn't come from the war wing of the party. Maybe he'll end up there; we'll see.

But Evan Bayh, Joe Lieberman, or Ben Nelson would have gotten similarly rough treatment had they run.

Joe Lieberman

Or even rougher. Clinton still received the Democratic nomination for her Senate seat.

Next time, maybe they think twice about a similar vote.

If Obama loses, though...

I didn't want to finish that thought.

if Evan Bayh ends up on the ticket

Not going to happen. For precisely the reason you'd like: Obama's not going to water down his opposition to the war by choosing a chickenhawk running mate. At least I hope not. Good heavens, I hope note.

note not

I like being called a "FISA compromiser" by a bot almost exactly as much as I like by sneered at by Mary Catherine. Which is to say, it's not really all that bad. Surprising, really.

After 4 months and 22 days, Salim Hamdan gets to resume indefinite detention.

What, wait? Obama's now supposed to oppose the War on Terra?

Last I heard, the most he was committed to was ending the fullscale US occupation of Iraq, while retaining the permanent military bases.

Not going to happen. For precisely the reason you'd like

Also, does he really want to give up a red state senate seat, one that the Dem's will have trouble winning back, in a year when there's an outside shot of a 60-seat majority? Fuck a bunch of that.

It's beyond outside shot, I think. Way beyond. This might well just be another head fake, though.

Hey Nápi (or some knowledgeable person willing to comment anonymously), what are the chances that a President Obama can cut a deal with Yemen to take Hamdan back, confiscate his passport, keep a close watch on him, etc? Is the Yemeni government on his side in this thing? Do they want him back?

It seems to me that the best outcome for the cause of justice that doesn't give the right wing a lot of potential ammunition is for the Obama administration to verifiably kill Osama Bin Laden, declare that hostilities with Al Quaida have ended, and release the "unlawful combatants" back to countries that will keep them on a short leash. But the weak link in this is whether their home countries (or any other country) will take them. Especially for tricky cases like the Uighurs and Palestinians in custody.

John McChesney said on NPR this morning that international pressure will be so strong that Hamdan will likely be returned to Yemen by Bush.

John McChesney

For half a second, I read that as John McCheney, and found it slightly amusing.

44: Yeah, that too. I have this dream, see, in which the Obama camp really is as good at this politics thing as I think they are. And in that dream, they keep flirting with popular politicians from swing states, from potential swing states, and from states that neighbor swing states: Indiana and Virginia would be good examples of what I mean. And those flirtations generate massive amounts of free media while also reassuring the voters in those swing states that Senator Obama shares their values. Or whatever. And then, at the end of my dream, Obama makes a big announcement that he has chosen the running-mate who makes the most sense. And her name is Kathleen Sibelius. And I wake up and realize that being boring isn't the worst thing in veep. Not by a long-shot. And I don't care who the next governor of Kansas is. Sorry, Kansans, I know that's harsh.

But in my dream, all of the campaign paraphernalia has her name spelled correctly. My dreams, 3.0, have spell check.

Hey, I made up a joke which probably isn't original. I'm just the hundredth monkey.

What do you get for a $5 contribution to the Obama campaign?

2 bumper stickers and change you can believe in.

I don't know. What *do* you get for a $5 contribution to the Obama campaign?

Your comic timing was off, Kraabie.

Thanks for being the straight man, Knecht, if a moment too late for my impatience.

Can't someone redact that string so I can get it right? It's at least as important as killing the Troll of Sorrow.

And her name is Kathleen Sibelius.

Yeah, baby.