Re: Also, The Hell That Chick With The 8-Pack Is Eating Southern Style Chicken Sandwiches

1

What do you mean "revive"? When did it ever go away?

Plus, I think they own the rights to the song.


Posted by: Ugh | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 6:30 AM
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Obviously it's all a matter of context, but the post-9/11 commercials United put out, with crew members talking about how they love to fly, with "Rhapsody in Blue" playing in the background, I thought the most moving commercial I'd ever seen.


Posted by: mike d | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 6:36 AM
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Yeah, the current commercial is psychedelic but somehow simultaneously tame. Disconcerting.

I saw a commercial recently that I can't find online. It was from a group called "GoRVing," advertising the RV experience in general. It showed a kid in the back of an RV suddenly seeing a stereotypical Amish guy in the RV, looking out the window and seeing a Civil War battle, etc. The parents look in and he's there alone grinning. All I could think was that the kid was so bored by being perpetually surrounded by the same four walls on his ostensible vacation that he started hallucinating.

And as an added bonus, in the last scene the family is walking into their house, followed at about 20 feet by a bear. "Buy an RV, and bears will eat your family!"


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 6:47 AM
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The terrible thing about being eaten by a bear is that their horribly bad breath will be your last memory. I know that this is a stereotype, but bears are omnivorous and not at all careful about oral hygiene. I don't know how the Canadian ladies stand it.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 6:50 AM
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4: Why does omnivorism mean worse breath than carnivorism?


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 6:57 AM
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Actually, I rather liked those ads.

Air travel still blows, though. I'm thinking of giving it up entirely. Does your new work situation still require you to fly a lot, Becks?


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 7:02 AM
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Mostly the carrion-eating part.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 7:04 AM
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I still can't believe McDonald's would so obviously and completely rip off the default sandwich of Chick Fil'A. The world just wasn't made for ethical and god-fearing people like Truitt Cathy.


Posted by: Fatman | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 7:16 AM
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8: While I'm delighted, because there isn't a damn Chick Fil'A within 80 miles of Chicago, but now I can finally get fried chicken on a biscuit at 7 in the morning (and I have, ohhh, I have). It really did amaze me that the thing's actually tasty, though still oversalted.

Also, chick with the 8-pack? Totally eating them, but that's because she's in her 20s and works out for a living. Those people need like 5000+ calories a day. At that point, fried meat is practically part of a balanced diet.


Posted by: Po-Mo Polymath | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 7:23 AM
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The afternoon-style Southern Style Chicken Sandwich is the real Chick Fil'A ripoff.


Posted by: Fatman | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 7:26 AM
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These kind of commercials always make me think of Aldous Huxley's dreams of a utopian society in which humans reached enlightenment through psychedelic drugs.

Ha! we say to Aldous! Psychedelia is just another tool for selling products!


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 7:28 AM
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I still can't believe McDonald's would so obviously and completely rip off the default sandwich of Chick Fil'A.

McDonalds has a long history of this sort of thing, and it almost never works. Corporate management gets concerned because another flavor of fast food is winning customers, and decide they need to get in on the action. So they launch an expensive ad campaign, force some dopey promotions on their franchisees, add a bunch of complexity to their kitchens and supply chains, and then the new product offering either flops totally or ends up cannibalizing existing revenues, because it's not actually attracting any new customers who otherwise would have gone to Chick Fil'A, but suddenly decided, "Hey, why go to Chick Fil'A when I can get my chicken sandwich from the hamburger place that caters to children?".

You'd think they would have learned their lesson now, but they never do.


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 7:31 AM
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9a to 12, but still, the Po-Mo Polymath market segment is probably not enough for McDonald's.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 7:35 AM
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And while I'm still slightly pissed at the world because I've actually had to get out of bed but haven't had coffee yet:

There is almost zero point to advertising for an airline these days. It's like advertising for nickel from one's own mine. The only thing keeping airline travel from becoming a commodity is frequent flier miles and the free upgrades they can provide, and even those are starting to disappear as airlines pull seats out of business class in order to add a full-recline.

If airlines really wanted to boost business, what they should do is focus on the destination. We all know air travel sucks, but gets us somewhere nice. The airline should go halfsies with the tourism bureau in its main domestic hub to advertise that destination, because then it'll pick up most of the incoming new travel. Similarly, it should go halfsies with the tourism bureaus for any international destinations where it is the dominant carrier.

Hence why United's ads are so damn stupid. It's already the carrier with the most convenient and cheapest flights from much of the U.S. to China, so it's already effectively getting weeks of free advertising. Take it! You're bankrupt, United! This advertising will have almost no marginal effect and you're wasting millions of money you don't have!


Posted by: Po-Mo Polymath | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 7:37 AM
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I'm pro-Southern Style Chicken Sandwich because it gives you the yumminess of Chikfila without supporting a company that gives money to anti-abortion groups.


Posted by: Becks | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 7:37 AM
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12, 13: They should add "And we still serve it on Sundays, unlike some Jesus-freaks" to all their commercials.


Posted by: Po-Mo Polymath | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 7:39 AM
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14 is correct. A lot of these airlines have had the same slogans for my entire life, or at least a decade, and I still don't know which one is which.

"We love to fly and it shows" - ah, an ad for air travel, how comforting.
"(Rhapsody in Blue playing in the background)" - ah, an ad for air travel, how comforting.
"You are now free to move about the country." - yes, I would indeed consider taking an airplane to somewhere I might be traveling in the future.

Even in the days of the past, when people's bookings were done by travel agents who were (supposed to be) comparing the airlines' offerings objectively instead of by consumers themselves, did advertising a single airline having any effect? Let alone today, when every trip is booked by searching a database containing every possible flight.

I guess they're like the ads for Archer Daniels Midland. But why are there so many of them?


Posted by: Fatman | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 7:44 AM
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I was struck by the irony of using the "Two Worlds" motif to push the wonderfulness of 1st Class & Business class. Two worlds indeed.

</privileged whining about the privileges of the truly rich>


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 7:44 AM
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Dude, 12 is totally wrong. First of all, there aren't that many Chick-Fil-As around. Like PMP says , you have to go to Wisconsin if you want it. And although the southern-style afternoon sandwich may yet end up a failure (it needs condiments or something, although still tasty), I predict that the glorious chicken biscuit will be on the menu for years to come.

It really is surprisingly good, and has easily risen to the top of the McDonald's product line in terms of tasting like actual food.

The real danger here is that McD's is overspending on ingredients as a loss-leader approach, and figures that once it infiltrates the public consciousness as a standard McDonald's product they'll slash quality and hope people keep buying.

Like, remember the McChicken? That used to be real chicken. Now it's on the fucking dollar menu.


Posted by: m. leblanc | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 7:44 AM
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but still, the Po-Mo Polymath market segment is probably not enough for McDonald's.

You don't know the half of it. A surprisingly large share of McDonalds revenues come from VERY frequent customers (i.e. eat at McDonalds 100 or more times per year). McD has more to gain by getting those guys to increase their consumption by 4-5% than by getting a once-a-year guy like PMP to double his consumption. So they really aren't that concerned about the PMP segment.

If airlines really wanted to boost business, what they should do is focus on the destination.

This is, with certain already well-known exceptions, wrong, but I don't have time to explain why right now. Just take my word for it.


Posted by: KR | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 7:46 AM
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Rapsody in Blue is pretty-well perfect as a corporate theme, with its capacity to accept lush orchestration and many tempo changes for the same tune. It was written that way (although not as a corporate commercial) for the aforementioned, if not on this thread, Paul Whiteman Orchestra.

Purists should take the opportunity to listen to the recording piano version, at the museum of mechanically reproduced music outside Traverse City, MI. A very costly and high tech device from the early twenties which made far higher fidelity than was then possible from sound recording. Gershwin made a roll for them before the premier, and standing right next to it, you can hear the man breath and move his fingers, nearly. I've heard it broadcast, so the recording is obtainable.


Posted by: I don't pay | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 7:46 AM
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19: Now it's on the fucking dollar menu.

Chickens I'd Fuck for a Dollar.
[insert link to what Ben linked to yesterday]


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 7:49 AM
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This advertising will have almost no marginal effect and you're wasting millions of money you don't have!

Once again, PMP is not (or perhaps not yet) the target audience for these ads. Nonetheless, it is true that the return on "image advertising" for airlines is a controversial topic. The question is *how much* image advertising you have to do to make the product and price promotions effective. The amount is generally agreed to be non-zero, but there is ample scope for debate about what the optimum level is.


Posted by: KR | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 7:50 AM
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I hate those ads. Rhapsody in Blue was written in 1924 and is thus in the public domain.


Posted by: Bave Dee | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 7:50 AM
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20: I, at the very least, now visit McDonald's about once a week for the chicken biscuit (whereas before, I would go there...once every two months or so). While there, I noticed another product that I now like, which is their $1.69 iced coffee. I realize I'm just one person, but in my little universe, their strategy of attracting people to their franchise with an actually decent product is working.

And I even realize that McDonald's is kind of evil. But they're being smart here.

Like I said earlier, though, I suspect that the reason this new product is so good is because they're not making as much of a profit on it as they do on their older products, and it will soon decline in quality.


Posted by: m. leblanc | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 7:52 AM
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This thread is making me want one of those sandwiches. Good job, guys.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 7:53 AM
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24: well wait, I thought the rule was 75 years after the creator's death? Which means four more years until it's public domain.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 7:54 AM
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Are you serious? I got a chicken biscuit because McD sent me a coupon for a free one to promote it (also a coupon for the dinner one that I didn't use before it expired.) First time I'd been to McDonald's in years, and the biscuit was so greasy I had to wash my hands for five minutes. Perhaps some people consider this a feature, but I've had Chick-Fil-A (they used to have one in the Harvard science center) and McDonalds, you're no Chick-Fil-A.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 7:54 AM
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Wait, never mind.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 7:55 AM
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25: I noticed another product that I now like, which is their $1.69 iced coffee.

Are you sure you aren't just falling for clever product placement? McDonald's iced coffee as a prop on local FOX news programs.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 7:56 AM
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copyright protecion lasts for the life of author and 70 years based on the the longest living author if jointly created or if work of corporate authorship, works for hire, or anonymous and pseudonymous works, the shorter of 95 years from publication, or 120 years from creation.
So fucking unconstitutional.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 7:57 AM
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We're both wrong, Tweety. 2019, your link says. For some reason I always think of 1928 as the cutoff date for copyrights, not 1923; I should stop impersonating an intellectual property lawyer.


Posted by: Bave Dee | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 7:59 AM
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A surprisingly large share of McDonalds revenues come from VERY frequent customers (i.e. eat at McDonalds 100 or more times per year).

That can't be good for you. I'm bothered by business models that depend on customers overindulging in the product or flat out abusing it.

Its like the payday lenders whose business requires people to be trapped in a cycle of debt.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 8:01 AM
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KR, so what are airlines trying to convince people of when they advertise? And who are they trying to convince? Who's actually on the margin when it comes to international travel between flight and a boat? And if they fly, is there any evidence that anyone takes the more expensive carrier for any reasons other than 1) already have status/frequent flier miles with carrier or 2) only direct flight?

If someone's on the margin about car or train vs. airplane for domestic travel, aren't they only considering a (typically one-carrier) shuttle route between major regional cities or Southwest as their air options?


Posted by: Po-Mo Polymath | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 8:02 AM
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I take a principled stand against McDonald's, unless I'm hung over and need some shitty breakfast food fast. There's a McDonald's two blocks from my house, and if I'm in the mood for fast food, I walk past it to go to Burger King.

AND YET this chicken sandwich thing has piqued my curiosity.

On another note, at a temp job once, one of my co-workers was an extremely frequent McDonald's customers. He was also Mexican-American and always enjoyed reading anything written in Spanish out loud. So one day, he was holding up his McDonald's cup and said dramatically, "Me encanta.... I'm lovin' it."

Another day, he suggested that he was perhaps eating too much McDonald's. I responded, "Is the oily discharge getting to you?"


Posted by: Adam Kotsko | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 8:03 AM
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31: yeah, it's horrendous. Fuck you, Mickey!

32: assuming it was renewed, which I guess it probably was.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 8:07 AM
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Are there corporations who commit their business travelers to a long-term relationship with a particular airline, disregarding prices? Because otherwise...seriously, every airline is interchangeable, and has been for...30 years? (except Southwest)

Of course, this is also true of gas stations.

I realized the scope of "corporate image" advertisements when I was aboard and the only stations were BBC International and CNN International. About 10% of the commercials were for either Dubai, Morocco, or Malaysia. Plus all the ads for things like Airbus and Cargill.

And then there's the "political lobbying" type of ad, which we are seeing so many of during these Olympics.

BP: the company that is bringing you wind-powered cars
Exxon/Mobil: the company that is bringing you wind-powered cars
GE: the company that is bringing you wind-powered cars


Posted by: Fatman | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 8:11 AM
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Becks, you do understand the point of advertising, right?

But, yeah, flying's a drag. For me, the bad parts are crappy food in airports and getting on the plane while people are standing in the aisle and shoving their gigantic bags overhead, which is going to get sooo much worse.

I've always been one of those helpful customers who checked my bag, had at most one small thing to put overhead, and didn't slow down the boarding process. And what do I get in return?

I don't actually mind all the waiting time, because I use it as an opportunity to read.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 8:11 AM
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36: Fuck you, Mickey IP Terrorism Rat!



Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 8:12 AM
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30: Doubt it. I don't watch tv. I get all my subliminal messages from the internets.


Posted by: m. leblanc | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 8:13 AM
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I started drinking McDonald's Newman's Own (Green Mountain) coffee when I was stopping there for breakfast with a friend. I wanted coffee and was going to ask to stop at Dunkin Donuts, but he wanted an egg mcmuffin, so we went there. I like their iced coffee a lot too. I do think that this varies by location more than the Dunkin Donuts stuff does. The McDonald's down the street from me in Allston doesn't seem to be able to brew it well. There's just something extra gross about their products in general.


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 8:13 AM
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That McDonald's sandwich is nowhere near as good as Chick Fil A. I do appreciate the lack of gross mayo & iceberg lettuce.

It's funny, I barely even connected the United with the good Rhapsody in Blue commercials with the United that has so many flights out of Chicago but is so lousy. The big carriers justify every annoying nickel-and-dime indignity on grounds that customers only buy on price, so what's with the glossy ads?


Posted by: Katherine | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 8:14 AM
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I take a principled stand against McDonald's . . . I walk past it to go to Burger King.

What principle is that, exactly?


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 8:15 AM
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(also, don't Chicago people have a ton of far superior options for cheap, delicious greasy food? Or is that just true if you live near DePaul?)

||
I seem to have an apt--a good sized place near Ball Square that was completely redone (everything but the wood frame of the house) since 1980. No sketchy realtors involved. Thanks to Bostonians for location tips.
|>


Posted by: Katherine | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 8:18 AM
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I had my office buy a 2L Pyrex Erlenmeyer flask a month or so ago so I could make iced coffee. It's great.


Posted by: Bave Dee | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 8:19 AM
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The principle is limited to McDonald's.


Posted by: Adam Kotsko | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 8:20 AM
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One untapped source of advertising material for airlines is the often vast difference between the experience in the terminal in markets with major airports. I used to fly American a lot, but after missing several flights because the American terminals at both LAX and O'Hare, two airports I visit regularly, are UTTER FUCKING HELL, I've stopped preferring them. Now I really like the United terminal at O'Hare--it's more efficient, plus, it looks cool 'cause it was designed by.. someone important, I can't remember who.

Anyway, airline advertising does make a difference. A lot of the time you are given the choice between two flights which aren't too far apart in price, and one has upsides (leaves exactly at the time I want!) that are different from the other flight's (is non-stop!). I have a hard time believing that perception about which airline is "better" doesn't factor in to those decisions. For example, a couple years ago, given such a choice, I probably would have picked American. Now, I would not, because I've been burned by them too many times.

And one decent airline experience, reinforced by advertising, can make you more likely to pick a flight from them in the future. For example, I had a very smooth experience flying Frontier airlines, the first and only time I flew them.--if they were to come out with a prominent and successful ad campaign, it might make me even more likely to fly them in the future.


Posted by: m. leblanc | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 8:20 AM
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38: I noticed an increase in large bags stored in the overhead bin on my last flight (Northwest). I bought my ticket before the policy change, but I'm sure there were some people who didn't, and decided to save 15 dollars.

I think airlines are going come to regret charging for the first checked bag. It's like a case-study for bad incentives.

I understand the need to increase prices to cover the cost of fuel, but I wish they would just raise fares across the board and quit all this nickel-and-dime bullshit.


Posted by: zadfrack | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 8:21 AM
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the yumminess of Chikfila without supporting a company that gives money to anti-abortion groups

I didn't know that. I'd totally boycott it if I ate chicken. But I'll spread the word among my poultivore friends.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 8:22 AM
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46: You are an ethical beacon in a corrupt world.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 8:24 AM
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Once or twice a year, I NEED to eat a Big Mac.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 8:24 AM
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BTW, I didn't mean to be dickish to PMP in 20.4. It's just that I have a knee-jerk aversion to statements in the form of "Airlines would make money if they would just implement this idea I have," because these statements are invariably wrong. Everything has been thought of before. Airlines don't make money because it is in the nature of an unregulated airline market that the only stable states are monopoly profits and ruinous competition. When airlines are making money on the whole, it's because the former outweigh the latter, and vice versa.

Back to being dickish, 34 does make me think that PMP has drunk a little too much of the U of Chicago water. There's a bit of free market literalism in his analysis.

Here's a quick test: which is a better airline: Emirates, or Qatar Airways?

If you even have an opinion on this question, and you haven't flown *both* airlines, then you have been influenced by image advertising.


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 8:25 AM
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52.1 is partially right. Most airlines have been incredibly mismanaged in the last decade.

Also, you forgot to blame the unions. Quiz: Which is the most highly unionized airline? The only one that's been consistently profitable. Take that, haters.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 8:30 AM
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I actively seek out Southwest, since Midway's easier to get to & get out of, their boarding process is better, & fewer flights of theirs fill up. (I have practically never been on a Southwest flight w/o an empty seat next to me--I don't get how they are the most profitable.) And I have some miles on Delta that it would be nice to add to & get something free. Otherwise, almost completely interchangeable.

United is especially likely to hold back more seats, not give you a seat when you check in, try to persuade you to buy a more expensive coach seat & generally keep you in suspense about whether you're going to get bumped. I hate that. I don't like their terminal either--I think they may actually have two different ones at O'Hare?

I'm not convinced they're right that customers don't care about service at all. If you had one airline that was consistently better on all the little stuff I think people would lean there when prices were comparable. As it is they're annoying in very similar ways & immediately copy each other on each new way to be annoying, so it's pretty hard to distinguish.


Posted by: Katherine | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 8:30 AM
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so the recording is obtainable.

I picked up the CD of Gershwin's piano rolls a while ago - it's pretty good. Has some of "An American in Paris" on it, too.


Posted by: mike d | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 8:32 AM
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I don't get how they [Southwest] are the most profitable

Cheaper gates; using one type of aircraft which makes it easier to swap planes when necessary, keep only one kind of parts around, have every mechanic be an expert on that type of plane; point-to-point rather than spoke system; having always focused on quick turnarounds and driven policies toward that; spending less on food -- and that doesn't upset people now because they never expected it; much better corporate culture; recently the (brilliant, as it turns out) fuel hedge; overall, much, much better managed than most airlines.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 8:38 AM
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I always fly out of Midway on Southwest because every other airline is radically more expensive. The major drawback is that the train ride from Midway to my apartment is often longer than the flight itself.


Posted by: Adam Kotsko | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 8:39 AM
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56: except for the "fuel hedge" and "better managed" parts, that applies to most of the discount carriers (e.g. Jet Blue, Midwest) too, right? I'd always wondered how Midwest managed to make money with those giant damn seats; that explains it.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 8:41 AM
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Molly on Midway: "It's, like, a bus station among airports."


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 8:41 AM
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59: Have you guys been recently? It is much, much nicer than it was in, say, the 90s. Not that it is in any way grand these days, but it is no longer Port Authority. (At the Akron-Canton airport, one can park about 20 yards from the baggage carousel. That is still odd to me.)


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 8:45 AM
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59: The bus station at South Station in Boston is nicer than a lot of airports.


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 8:51 AM
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Oudemia: No, we haven't been there in, like, 10 years.

At the Akron-Canton airport, one can park about 20 yards from the baggage carousel. That is still odd to me.

The micro airport near Canton NY is even weirder. You park in the space right by the front door of a metal shed. Inside the shed are four chairs, a pair of ticket desks with one employee. A big metal detector and three homeland security guys.

I didn't expect anything else from a crop duster airport, but the whole thing still felt wrong.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 8:51 AM
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61: I don't like the bus station part that much. It's a hell of a train station, though.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 8:52 AM
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At some airports, each terminal is devoted to a different airline, and the terminals can be distinguished from each other? I didn't know that.

Corporate image advertising must be pretty effective or they wouldn't do it. and yet, I do not believe I have ever seen a TV ad for a labor union in my entire life.


Posted by: peter | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 8:53 AM
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And if they fly, is there any evidence that anyone takes the more expensive carrier for any reasons other than 1) already have status/frequent flier miles with carrier or 2) only direct flight?

After my most recent experiences on United, I will in fact seriously consider flying a more expensive carrier for my next trip.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 8:57 AM
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Corporate image advertising must be pretty effective or they wouldn't do it.

This is a bad inference. I don't know anything about the effectiveness of image advertising, but I'm quite sure it is wrong to assume that just because corporate America does something that it is actually good for the bottom line.

The inference is based on the myth of perfect capitalism. If someone does something inefficient, a competitor will automatically appear to drive them out of business. This sort of thing only happens in perfect markets with an unlimited supply of entrepreneurs and venture capital.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 8:58 AM
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64: Are you a youngster, Peter? Maybe this is just an East Coast thing, but I would bet that anyone in my age cohort (at least from the same media market, LB?) remembers the "Look for the Union Label" commercials and can sing the song ("Look for the union label, when you are buying a coat, dress, or blouse . . .")


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 8:58 AM
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68: the only time I've ever heard that phrase was when people were making fun of Al Gore for using it.

Age 25


Posted by: peter | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 8:59 AM
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64:

I do not believe I have ever seen a TV ad for a labor union in my entire life.

I recall seeing some what seems like ages ago. They were singing that "look for the union label" folk song. I think they ripped it off from Bob Dylan who ripped it off from Woody Guthrie who probably ripped it off from some african american.

This was before we all drank the koolaid that only Sumo wrestlers may act collectively to soar through the air. Or something. What were those people on when they created those commercials.


Posted by: Tripp | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 9:01 AM
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63: I agree that the train station part is much nicer, but I also maintain that I have been in airports that are a lot less nice than the bus station part.


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 9:02 AM
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the only time I've ever heard that phrase was when people were making fun of Al Gore for using it.

That is a sad statement, but I believe you.

Jesus Christ.

Yeah, and hippies were dirty drug users and only losers try to cooperate and an army of one can beat anyone.

Sigh.

The fish never sees the water.


Posted by: Tripp | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 9:05 AM
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The song is neither Dylan nor Guthrie. It was written for the advertisement for the International Ladies Garment Workers Union (now a part of UNITE). The melody was taken from a depression era song "Look for the Silver Lining"


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 9:11 AM
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I would bet that anyone in my age cohort (at least from the same media market, LB?) remembers the "Look for the Union Label" commercials and can sing the song

Definitely!

And if they fly, is there any evidence that anyone takes the more expensive carrier for any reasons other than 1) already have status/frequent flier miles with carrier or 2) only direct flight?

Isn't a pretty large segment of airline revenue from business travel? It doesn't seem too unlikely that travelers not paying for their ticket might take fuzzier, brand loyalty-type preferences into account.


Posted by: potchkeh | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 9:14 AM
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I've seen SEIU ads recently.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 9:14 AM
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>Now I really like the United terminal at O'Hare--it's more efficient, plus, it looks cool 'cause it was designed by

Helmut Jahn of Murphy/Jahn.

Also did the State of Illinois building in Chicago.


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 9:14 AM
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He made some joke about how his parents sung it to him as a lullaby. Then half the media made fun of him for lying because the song had not yet been written when he was a baby, and the other half made fun of him for thinking that he would get votes for claiming to be a red-diaper baby.


Posted by: peter | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 9:14 AM
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Does anyone else remember the accompanying ILGWU print ad campaign "Nothing suits me like my union suit (except my union [other varied article of clothing])"?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 9:16 AM
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I have a knee-jerk aversion to statements in the form of "Airlines would make money if they would just implement this idea I have," because these statements are invariably wrong.

I don't doubt it. Without even digging through their recent 10-K, I would say with some confidence that United could chop their sales & marketing expenditures down to a sliver without putting much of a dent into their losses. I just honestly wonder if there's an NPV to the advertising, because it really doesn't seem like it should have any. Do you know if that idea about splitting costs on destination advertising for routes dominated by the airline actually was tried? Did it get sunk because no one wanted to split the advertising costs or some other major problem I'm not seeing (not enough marginal effect on the carrier's business)?


PMP has drunk a little too much of the U of Chicago water

I can't really say I'm innocent of this. By and large, I'm an economist in thought, even if I try to apply it toward liberal means.

But between Emirates and Qatar, at least any advertising influence on my thoughts is a 2nd order effect: Emirates always comes in pretty high on the frequent-flier surveys of airline quality (though when I flew it, it was no Singapore Air). Now, Qatar's probably a small enough carrier that it doesn't get sufficient responses to top such surveys even if it's amazing, so that imparts very little information, and even the Emirates ranking may mostly be affected by advertising (as I said, it wasn't particularly great the couple times I flew on it, though not bad either). So... There ya go.

But 34 really was meant as an inquiry, not as rhetorical questions. I take it the airlines have evidence that image advertising works, they're just trying to figure out how cost-effective it is and how much is necessary?


Posted by: Po-Mo Polymath | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 9:16 AM
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Delta's Terminal 2 (economy-class entrance) at JFK gets my vote for beign worse than many bus stations. Ugh.


Posted by: md 20/400 | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 9:17 AM
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Also, I grabbed a chicken-on-a-biscuit sandwich coming in to work today thanks to you people. Still tasty, though not as delicious as the ones I've had at the Pilsen McDonalds. Popeye's should get in on this sandwich (and breakfast, period), as their franchises tend to have much better biscuits across the board.


Posted by: Po-Mo Polymath | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 9:19 AM
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Does anyone else remember the accompanying ILGWU print ad campaign

No, but I've never lived near garment factories. Maybe that makes a difference.


Posted by: Tripp | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 9:23 AM
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34: I suspect it's a mistake to assume that people invariably decide where to go and then how to get there. Aside from visiting family in fixed locations, I'd guess a lot of vacation planning is done by budget. So `on the fence' doesn't look quite like your scenario, and location-mentioning ads might help ('oh, we could afford to got to X').


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 9:24 AM
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64- You sure you haven't seen this one, Peter?!


Posted by: Ron Burr | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 9:25 AM
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Those ads are awful. The first one starts with the tuning-up sound, then jumps over the beginning of the piece; the second one totally butchers the music, and substitutes sax for clarinet in the opening bars, which is both stupidity and sacrilege (fun fact: the glissando wasn't Gershwin's idea; it was improvised by Whiteman's clarinetist). The impression I am left with is that United sucks.

I don't remember the ILGWU print ad campaign, but the song from the TV ads has been stuck in my head for most of my life.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 9:26 AM
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I didn't think Whiteman allowed his band to improvise. That was a part of why it wasn't "real jazz."


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 9:34 AM
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fun fact: the glissando wasn't Gershwin's idea; it was improvised by Whiteman's clarinetist).

Interesting. I've never seen the sheet music - do you know if it is included there, because I've never heard it performed without the glissando.

The best know enough to give their musicians some freedom and take the best from them as well.


Posted by: Tripp | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 9:35 AM
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There was also the "Union Yes" campaign, mostly in print as I recall. For some reason, I specifically remember Howard Hesseman in one of them; I think they used other SAG members as well.

Also, billboards in some heavily unionized cities.

I do not believe I have ever seen a TV ad for a labor union in my entire life.

You're in for a treat. I know it's been linked before, but peter shouldn't miss it.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 9:35 AM
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Billboards and magazine ads I have seen. Not TV ads.

LOL

If that was a real AFSCME ad, people would both know who they are and have a better opinion of them. I am totally serious.


Posted by: peter | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 9:36 AM
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56: Some of those things. Jetblue flies into JFK, definitely not a cheaper gate. I don't know about the single type of aircraft. But, yeah, some of the smaller airlines try to use the Southwest model.

One of the industry's problems is that it has bizarrely low barriers to entry. Any schmo who wants to start an airline seems to be able to get a ridiculous amount of investment capital. Many of them have gone out of business pretty quickly, as have the low-cost airlines within airlines.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 9:43 AM
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88: It was a real ad, but the voiceover is fake.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 9:44 AM
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89: Coming soon: Unfogged Air!


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 9:46 AM
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90 will be cross-posted on Standpipe's blog.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 9:49 AM
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Also, totally pwned by 83. I think I'd best go do something else now.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 9:50 AM
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do you know if it is included there, because I've never heard it performed without the glissando

It's in the printed score. Ross Gorman, the clarinetist, did it in rehearsal, and Gershwin liked it. I played clarinet for years, but I never learned to do that; it's still on my "before you die" list. Another fun fact: Rachmaninoff, Sousa, Heifetz and a bunch of other famous guys were in the audience at the premiere.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 9:52 AM
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86: I'm pretty sure it's in the sheet music I had. Haven't played in years, though, due to a hand injury. (Sad, I know.)


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 9:54 AM
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played clarinet for years, but I never learned to do that

Ditto. Fucking glissando.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 9:54 AM
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Of course, that was a piano reduction, so my input is pwned. I did play clarinet, too, but never got that good.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 9:56 AM
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56 leaves out "only flying profitable routes", doesn't it? The other airlines started earlier and built huge hub systems that are now more out of sync with the marketplace. I love Southwest (well, except for the zone boarding), but until recently I haven't been able to take them anywhere I needed to go. We need *somebody* to fly everywhere else, and that somebody seems likely to be screwed regardless of how brilliant their CEO is.

As for the more important matter of breakfast chicken sandwiches: I'm having a hard time taking seriously the suggestion that this menu change represents a doomed crusade directed against the Chick Fil-A juggernaut.

Isn't this just a case of McDonald's identifying some crap they had lying around that was compatible with their fryer technology and then selling it to us with some insultingly stupid commercials? I fully expect to one of these days see a campaign promoting the McHashBrown late-nite slider, or encouraging me to eat expired packets of pancake syrup with my quarter pounder extra value meal.


Posted by: Tom | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 9:59 AM
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Gershwin to Ravel: "Could you teach me composition?"

Ravel to Gershwin: "How much do you make a year?"

Gershwin to Ravel: [Lots]

Ravel to Gershwin: Maybe you should teach me composition.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 10:00 AM
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I suspect it's a mistake to assume that people invariably decide where to go and then how to get there. Aside from visiting family in fixed locations, I'd guess a lot of vacation planning is done by budget.

That sounds really plausible. Then I suppose airline choice could really enter into things, since you'd mostly be looking for specials that fit your schedule to get the cheapest possible airfare. While it's possible to do that on individual airline websites, I'm not sure if anyone's done a good job at just collecting all the various special fares and available times on some third-party website. If so, lemme know, that'd be awesome. (Though, tragically, I am sorta stuck with United for the foreseeable future)


Posted by: Po-Mo Polymath | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 10:02 AM
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PMP, why don't you just go to Harold's?


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 10:09 AM
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98.1: Originally, yes, though that's become harder as they undercut each other and the majors try to undercut them. A few of Southwest's routes are no longer profitable, I believe, or at least not very. I don't have hard data, though. And the hub-and-spoke system definitely creates difficulties (which, in my own defense, I did mention in 56). By operating only in Texas on a point-to-point model, Southwest also had a long time to get established and grow slowly.

The majors make most of their money on international routes, BTW.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 10:10 AM
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I eagerly await the first easyjet/ryanair transatlantic flight.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 10:13 AM
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Ah -- apologies for missing your mention of the hub system, Sir Kraab. I blew right by it.

It's interesting to hear that the international routes are the most profitable. I'd always assumed that the fuel costs involved would make those margins razor-thin, as people aren't very good at realizing just how big oceans tend to be.


Posted by: Tom | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 10:14 AM
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101: The Harold's in the Loop closed; there's only one in the South Loop now. I'm nowhere near the Wicker Park Harold's, and don't really get down to the South Side much except for Pilsen.

Plus, the once or twice a year I head down to Bridgeport, I might as well go to Wings of the World instead. Tastyriffic.


Posted by: Po-Mo Polymath | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 10:15 AM
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I played clarinet for years, but I never learned to do that; it's still on my "before you die" list.

Good on ya. Never give up on the list. It keeps you vital.

I liked clarinetists and detested saxophonists but that was mostly because in HS band the saxophones had French Horn cues (doubled horn parts, which they should only play if there are not horns in the band!) and the freaking honky obnoxious LOUD saxophones insisted on playing them when I AM PERFECTLY FINE TO PLAY THEM MYSELF THANK YOU VERY MUCH!

Also, bad French hornists are meek and quiet. Bad saxophone players are loud and honky and obnoxious.


Posted by: Tripp | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 10:16 AM
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104.2: I'm sure that's closer to the case nowwith fuel costs. Their focus, of course, is on business and wealthy passengers who fly first class and are more likely to pay full fare. Same for domestic -- you get business travelers who buy last-minute first-class tickets for $1,000.

Remember that with your next filet-o-chicken: you're paying for a nice cushy ride for McD's executives but you're also helping to prop up the airline industry. Well done.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 10:22 AM
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I had a very smooth experience flying Frontier airlines

Frontier is teh awesome. I just wish they weren't charging double what everyone else is for the flights we want to book for Thanksgiving.


Posted by: Magpie | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 10:29 AM
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I'm partial to drum and bugle corp but I also love a full symphonic orchestral sound as well.


Posted by: Tripp | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 10:30 AM
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I've flown only twice in the last six years or so, and the thought of having to do it again en famille is so unpleasant I'm seriously looking into going by train when we head back east next June.

Never give up on the list

Just last week I built my first bicycle wheel, having toted this book around for years and years. Incredibly satisfying.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 10:34 AM
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110: building wheels is fun. Do you have a truing stand?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 10:35 AM
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I find glissandos quite simple. I haven't played in about 8 years but I'm sure I could get my trombone out of the basement and do one just fine.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 10:43 AM
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This thread is making me want one of those sandwiches. Good job, guys.

If you don't want to read me pat myself on the back, just skip this comment:

A couple months ago, as I was biking Iris to school (Downtown), I saw an ad for that sandwich, and it sounded awesome. So I went home, whipped up some buttermilk biscuits, and while they baked I picked up some fried chicken from Family Pride Chicken in the heart of my NBD. Awesome. And the rest of the biscuits went well with jam. Hmm. I may have even had one with strawberries and whipped cream.

All that said, the information that the McD sandwich is actually decent may make me relent in a moment of weakness.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 10:46 AM
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111: There's one built into my repair stand. Not as nice as, say, this, but good enough.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 10:48 AM
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Once or twice a year, I NEED to eat a Big Mac.

Agreed, more more like "every year or two."

Big Mac, invented in Uniontown PA as a copy-cat of a burger made at local, inversely-named family chain Eat 'n' Park. The Eat 'n' Park burger was even called The Big [Something].


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 10:54 AM
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113.3: Hold strong if you must. The sandwich is certainly of variable quality, mostly due to the occasional suckiness of the biscuit.


Posted by: Po-Mo Polymath | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 10:55 AM
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building wheels is fun.

Is it more fun than truing wheels? Because I find truing wheels pretty much not-fun.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 10:55 AM
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116: Will do. I take biscuits pretty seriously, so I doubt I'd tolerate a subpar one.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 10:58 AM
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Is it more fun than truing wheels?

Once you've got the wheel put together, building is truing, basically, both radial and lateral. But that's the cool thing—you take a hub, a rim and some spokes, and you make something (almost) perfect.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 11:00 AM
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building wheels is fun. hard to do really well. Pretty much every roadie I used to know went to one old german guy for building, 'cause they held up better than self-built. People who aren't that hard on their bikes probably don't need to care though.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 11:04 AM
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120: it is hard to do well, and amazing how well it can be done. On the other hand, if you do it yourself and only do an average job, at least you'll know how to fix it when it gets out-of-true again.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 11:08 AM
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121: Oh, absolutely. I wasn't suggesting anyone not do it for themselves just because they aren't likely to do the best job possible ... just noting there's a lot of art to it.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 11:10 AM
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OT: Hey, Sifu, if you don't mind, what are your thoughts about this Newsweek blog post about mirror neurons and elite basketball players? It's short and not very detailed, but its basic claim is that the very best basketball players are better able to predict the outcome of other players' shots because of their heightened (neurological) ability to empathize.


Posted by: NickFranklin | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 11:14 AM
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Whoops. Here's the link:

http://blog.newsweek.com/blogs/labnotes/archive/2008/08/12/brainy-empathy-on-the-basketball-court.aspx


Posted by: NickFranklin | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 11:14 AM
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123: seems pretty accurate to me; that's how mirror neurons work. Calling it "empathy" like that is maybe a little misleading, because it implies a lot of things about the larger role of the mirror neuron system which I find plausible-to-likely, personally, but which are anything but settled science.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 11:17 AM
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--


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 11:20 AM
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They do skip over the fact that mirror neurons also fire when you're performing the same action, so it makes perfect sense that somebody who makes a lot of free throws (and has therefore learned very strongly the muscle activation sequences which lead to a successful throw) would have a better sense of whether the activation pattern expressed based on their in-brain simulation of somebody else's action would lead to that. If that's clear.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 11:21 AM
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--


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 11:24 AM
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--


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 11:27 AM
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125: Thanks. I was surprised to run into it so soon on the heels of the Great Mirror Debate, and it seemed to gesture--as you did, if I was understanding you correctly--in the same direction as the idea that we perceive text in a mirror backwards because we're "empathizing" with the perspective of the person in the reflection, and thus using that perspective as a frame of reference, with respect to which the text we actually see seems reversed. Not that I'd like to annoy everyone by restarting that discussion.


Posted by: NickFranklin | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 11:29 AM
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--


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 11:32 AM
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Oh, well, I would really stick to my first couple comments on mirror neurons. I got a bit off the reservation once I started talking about mirrored text. But, yes, mirror neurons, empathy, mimicry, learning: all very much related. It's not too surprising it's come up; it's one of the hottest topics in neuroscience right now.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 11:33 AM
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127: "the same action" as they themselves have been performing for the last 100 free throws, or "the same action" as the person they're observing? If the former, that makes perfect sense. Again, thanks.


Posted by: NickFranklin | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 11:35 AM
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133: so, if you look at somebody shooting a free throw, what basically happens is that a section of your motor cortex shows the same pattern of activation it would if you were performing the same action they are. If somebody is good at shooting free throws, they should be able to "feel" whether or not the mechanics of that action are correct.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 11:38 AM
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My use of pronouns is doing nothing to enhance my clarity.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 11:38 AM
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134: Gotcha.


Posted by: NickFranklin | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 11:41 AM
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In the last four years I've flown only twice. Four years ago I had a disastrous experience on America West, right down to the plane having a leak so everyone's ears popped continuously for six hours and every bathroom was broken. This past January I flew US Airways (not realizing they had merged with America West) from RDU to Philly and back and had an extremely pleasant experience. Flights were on time, quick to board, quick to unload, luggage turned up right away, etc. I have always figured, and the much more educated commentary above seems to confirm, that one's experience flying has much more to do with through what airports one travels rather than what airlines one takes.


Posted by: Robust McManlyPants | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 11:42 AM
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135: being interleaved with a troglodyte doesn't help, either.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 11:43 AM
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138: America West and ATA really were quite horrible for a while there. AirTrans, too. Not sure where and how things have improved.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 11:45 AM
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Who you calling a troglodyte, soup? (Kidding.)

Alternatively: Mmmm. Troglodyte soup.


Posted by: NickFranklin | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 11:47 AM
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Isn't this just a case of McDonald's identifying some crap they had lying around that was compatible with their fryer technology and then selling it to us with some insultingly stupid commercials? I fully expect to one of these days see a campaign promoting the McHashBrown late-nite slider, or encouraging me to eat expired packets of pancake syrup with my quarter pounder extra value meal.

Nah, they're not going to be adding permanent menu items to use up leftovers. They hire supply chain analysts to tell them precisely how many packets of pancake syrup to order so that they should be able to avoid problems with excess ingredients on the shelves/in the coolers.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 12:26 PM
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ryanair transatlantic flight

Tried. Do not recommend. Though they did give me more food than American did.


I'm sure I could get my trombone out of the basement and do one just fine

Unfogged band! So far we've got a trombone, a french horn, a piccolo, and a bunch of clarinets.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 1:00 PM
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Carl Karcher- deceased founder of Carl's jr. bitterly complained how In-N-Out burger had but four menu items and yet kicked their ass in store by store sales. It ain't about the variety.


Posted by: Tassled Loafered Leech | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 1:04 PM
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But everyone knows you can order off the menu at In-N-Out burger.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 1:12 PM
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144. My wife always orders a grilled cheese with grilled onions and an arnold palmer. Never a problem. Wait, sometimes she does order a cheeseburger "protein style". No bun, wrapped in lettuce. Now I'm hungry.


Posted by: Tassled Loafered Leech | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 1:16 PM
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Damn, I wish that In 'N Out were available on the east coast. I saw someone wearing an In 'N Out T-shirt at a Tim Horton's in Ontario. That also made me want a cheeseburger animal style.


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 1:48 PM
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In'n'Out and Kum'n'Go still have not met. In'n'Out is in SW Utah, Kum'n'Go is in NW Colorado. The odds are poor because at least one chain is contracting.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 2:20 PM
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Thread merge: removing the B and the R from "In-N-Out Burger" is a common bumpersticker mod. Puerile, but elegant and direct.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 2:41 PM
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Unfogged band! So far we've got a trombone, a french horn, a piccolo, and a bunch of clarinets.

I played primarily trumpet but did a concert season on french horn and dabbled in the clarinet.


Posted by: Robust McManlyPants | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 2:42 PM
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Sounds as though we have plenty of clarinets. I'll take tuba, which I played my senior year of HS.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 2:44 PM
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Oh neat, an airline thread on the day I get to do a redeye on a 757. Blech.


Posted by: Not Prince Hamlet | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 3:13 PM
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If you really really want to hate United, read this.


Posted by: DonBoy | Link to this comment | 08-14-08 3:25 PM
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Speaking of marketing- free chicken sandwich with purchase of medium drink. Bizarrely, color printer required, black and white not accepted- does McD have a marketing deal with HP?


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 08-15-08 9:21 AM
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