Re: Clap Trap

1

Oh, now you have made me sad about the quite large playlist of good songs with handclaps Snark and I once compiled, now lost in a hard drive failure.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 09-14-08 3:34 PM
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I couldn't be bothered to go through the entire linked thread to see if it was mentioned, but Steve Reich's Clapping Music would qualify for your exemption.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 09-14-08 3:34 PM
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Dylan's Albert Hall concert has a little break where loaded Dylan babbles and raps unintelligibly for a minute or so, ending ".... if you just wouldn't clap so loud".

Miles Davis "On the Corner" has a fantastic hand-clapping section.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-14-08 3:41 PM
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I'm currently debating using a drum machine rhythm that has hand-claps in it. The problem is whether or not the hand-clap would get old using it throughout the whole song, which would mean I'd have to buck up and figure out how to program the drum machine to edit it out and add it back in.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-14-08 4:00 PM
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Don't be sad, foxtail! If you're good you'll see your hard drive again in Heaven!


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-14-08 4:03 PM
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I'll second that if embargo singers asking the crowd to sing their songs. I've seen both Blondie and Our Lady Peace do this feloniously, then tell the crowd 'that meant a lot to me'. At the expense of like 10,000 other people's potential meaningfulness. Gr.


Posted by: Rottin' in Denmark | Link to this comment | 09-14-08 4:04 PM
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using a drum machine

You really are a heartbreaker, heebie.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 09-14-08 4:08 PM
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Clapping is stupid. Entreating the audience to jump up and down can be great though. I guess clapping is the equivalent for seated audiences. But really there is no equivalent


Posted by: CN | Link to this comment | 09-14-08 4:08 PM
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Hand clapping in the audience at shows is generally stupid except -- in my limited experience -- with African bands with significantly African audiences because, man, they know how to rock a hand clap.

Clapping along to a DJ playing dance music is super lame, because the person inevitably doesn't have the rhythm and, hey, if they wanted a hand clap in this song they could have found that button on the drum machine. Go find a drum circle, buddy.

Hand claps on drum machines are super awesome.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-14-08 4:13 PM
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9: S/B "DJ's playing dance music are super lame".

My opinions of Europop, DJs, etc. are too pungent for Unfogged.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-14-08 4:16 PM
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You really are a heartbreaker, heebie.

I don't really know how to get around it, though. Short of recording using the drum machine, then having Jammies go back and record over that track with live drumming. Which seems reasonable.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-14-08 4:24 PM
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Oh yeah, I remember the problem - I only have 4 tracks, so I have to play over the drum track to be as frugal as possible with the tracks. I couldn't play over Jammies's drumming because they have separate inputs or something.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-14-08 4:25 PM
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And the computer software lets you have infinity tracks, but I always hear phantom latency problems.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-14-08 4:26 PM
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It's no use trying to make excuses, heebie-scabbie. I'll have the drummer's union representative by shortly


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 09-14-08 4:29 PM
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Let's talk recording equipment. Should I buy a standalone 16 track shnazzy mixing device?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-14-08 4:31 PM
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Heebie's heartbreakerness is what she is. She's cruel but fair.

Just roll over and die now, Stanislaus. Her other victims are heaped over there, and we'd appreciate it if you didn't make us drag you over there ourselves.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-14-08 4:31 PM
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15: What software are you using?


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 09-14-08 4:33 PM
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My brother had a friend who was proud of his ability to imitate a dru machine with analog drums.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-14-08 4:35 PM
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17: Audacity.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-14-08 4:37 PM
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re: 13

You're probably not doing it properly. Seriously. If you are monitoring in software you'll pretty much always get latency problems unless you are using the right drivers (ASIO, etc) and have a really fast machine.

Lots of soundcards will let you do hardware monitoring, though. Not expensive ones, either. Ordinary Soundblasters have done this for ages.

I used to have infuriating latency problems until I stopped monitoring through software. The only problem with monitoring in hardware is that you won't be able to do real time monitoring of VST effects. But if you aren't making heavy use of them on live instruments or vocals, that won't be a problem.

re: 15

PCs are much more flexible.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 09-14-08 4:37 PM
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re: 19

Also, Audacity, while fine as a free audio editor, is a crap sequencer/DAW.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 09-14-08 4:38 PM
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18: A Drusilla machine? A druid machine? A druthers machine? What, what?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-14-08 4:38 PM
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A Guy Drut machine.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-14-08 4:40 PM
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20, 21: The real problem is that I develop extreme resistance to technology that seems daunting. I need extremely user-friendly devices. I love this little 4-track recorder because I totally understand it. But there are probably 15 words in 20, 21 that I do not understand.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-14-08 4:40 PM
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re: 24

I hear quite good things about standalone hardware recorders from people who have them, and they are portable and user-friendly.

But there's a lot of stuff -- editing, etc -- that's always going to be easier on a computer and there's software that more or less mimics a traditional four-track for the software phobic. Cakewalk's Guitar Tracks can be made to run like a four-track, for example.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 09-14-08 4:47 PM
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So about the monitering the hardware and software and silverware, the Cakewalk thing would do all that for me and it'd sound in sync?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-14-08 4:49 PM
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FWIW, I found the learning curve on a lot of audio software totally overpowering when I first started. It was only playing with some free software I got on a magazine cover disc -- basically a cutdown version of a commercial program with the cruft taken out -- that I was able to get my head round it.

Finding easy to use software makes a big difference. That means if anyone suggests you use Cubase: hit them with the nearest heavy object.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 09-14-08 4:49 PM
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But does "easy to use" include the monitering and latency and hey-hey? Because Audacity was easy to use, it just sounded bad.

And so Audacity makes you moniter the software instead of the hardware? What's going on here?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-14-08 4:52 PM
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re: 26

Most half-decent software will do it.

It just depends on the soundcard you have. There's usually an option somewhere in the software or settings for the card to let the soundcard do the monitoring. Then, basically, the soundcard plays back the recording input without routing it through the PC. So, no latency.



Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 09-14-08 4:53 PM
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re: 28

Not sure if Audacity does it. I've used it with no latency problems -- but the settings don't specify any monitoring options.

What sound card are you using?


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 09-14-08 4:55 PM
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You probably want to turn Software Playthrough off in Audacity, though.

Perhaps someone more familiar with Audacity than me knows.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 09-14-08 4:55 PM
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The soundcard is M-Audio Delta 1010 LT.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-14-08 4:59 PM
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I just hit things and don't do any recording in my bands, but I can attest to the fact that a lot of seemingly not-too-bright people in the music world seem to be able to operate Pro Tools with relative competency and good results. Don't know if that's a prohibitively expensive solution.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 09-14-08 5:00 PM
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re: 32

I don't imagine you should have any problems. There'll just be a setting somewhere that's at the root of it probably. M-Audio's site lists that card as doing zero latency hardware monitoring.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 09-14-08 5:02 PM
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Apparently with the 1010LT [googling] there's a way to route the inputs in the mixer for the card so that the recording input gets monitored in hardware.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 09-14-08 5:05 PM
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You probably want to turn Software Playthrough off in Audacity, though.

I think this is the problem - I think I need it on so that I can hear the old tracks while I lay down a new one. I'm just doing one track at a time.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-14-08 5:05 PM
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re: 36

No, software playthrough is playing back the track you are recording while you record it. You can still hear the other tracks with it turned off.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 09-14-08 5:06 PM
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Checked w/ Jamaal and he says that we're using the hardware to moniter what we're playing, but we need the software to play the old tracks and that's where the latency is coming from.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-14-08 5:10 PM
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Heebie and Jamies are musicians too? Everyone here seems to be a productive musician in addition to having real jobs and commenting here. Where do you find the time?


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 09-14-08 5:25 PM
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Me, mostly just during summer vacation. I'm still fooling around with stuff but my pace has dropped way off since school started. Jammies rehearses with other people in the evenings.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-14-08 5:30 PM
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re: 38

That's wrong. You shouldn't get latency with hardware monitoring. There's something wrong somewhere with how you are setting something. Latency is caused by a lag between the input of the recorded track and the output of the same track. If the recorded track is being hardware monitored, there won't be latency. It comes out as soon as it goes in.

The only way you get latency is if the track is going from the card to the software then back out to the card again.

Note: hardware monitoring doesn't just mean 'we are listening to the track via the M-Audio card', if you are software monitoring it's still going out through the card. Hardware monitoring means you are monitoring prior to software. There's definitely a setting in your card's mixer or elsewhere that will do that.

Try turning the software play-through off -- it is trying to play back the track via software as you record it and that will definitely cause latency. The software ought to still play the tracks you've recorded already, even with it turned off.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 09-14-08 5:31 PM
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Jammies says, "The disable ASIO direct monitering is not checked in the settings." He also says we're not using software playthrough, just play back of old tracks while recording.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-14-08 5:39 PM
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40: Ah, but wait, you have a bun in the oven! Soon, no band for you and Jammies.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 09-14-08 5:46 PM
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You mean, we have another band member in the oven. Plus won't this help us drown out the crying? ("Those guys really wail!")


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-14-08 5:51 PM
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||

Justice Scalia on 60 Minutes right now: a rather charming knave.

|>


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 09-14-08 6:13 PM
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I'll grant you that Scalia would fun at the hog farm.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-14-08 6:15 PM
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First: I am so totally never DJing at any parties for John Emerson.

Second: Audacity is kind of a laggy piece of crap, depending on the platform you're running it on. But if you're going to go so far as to buy something, buy a nice (multi-out? Ooh.) soundcard and some kind of good software.

I use an old Echo (um kind of a guess) Darla and Logic Audio, and it works swell on a very elderly system. I wouldn't necessarily recommend logic unless you want to do composition with synths and stuff, though.

Also, this comment will likely be irrelevant to the current state of the thread, but I'm not previewing because hah!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-14-08 6:18 PM
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Man, I am so excited to be in the same state as my music equipment again.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-14-08 6:20 PM
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n the same state as my music equipment again

Plugged in?


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 09-14-08 6:22 PM
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44: I've trained Smaller Child to say "I know, lets form a band" whenever he is bored. This signal means that he is about to make an ungodly racket and expects everyone else to join him. Its fun actually.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 09-14-08 6:23 PM
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49: overdriven!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-14-08 6:24 PM
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51: and, apparently, wired.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 09-14-08 6:37 PM
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I think that if you're going to encourage people to clap, you have to stick with the responsibility and direct them when to stop or help them change tempo or whatever.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-14-08 6:54 PM
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Its fun actually.

For now.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-14-08 6:54 PM
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53: I actually thought of that. It can be kind of cute when bands do that "there's going to be this clappy part; let us teach it to you" before playing the song. It can also be kind of eye-roll inducing.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 09-14-08 7:01 PM
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Sifu, he hog farm is having a gala event and we think that you would be the perfect DJ!


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-14-08 7:06 PM
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55: If you spend a lot of time in a Pete Seegerish folk scene, you get used to it and start to let your guard down. I mean, Pete would practically give little music tutorials with his songs. If you stop thinking "Oh, I'm too cool for this" you can have a lot of fun.

Actually, that last sentence is good general life advice.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 09-14-08 7:11 PM
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It's a paradox, really. When we hire a DJ he never leaves, but we need a new one every year. Funny, that.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-14-08 7:15 PM
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If you stop thinking "Oh, I'm too cool for this" you can have a lot of fun.

Yeah, about half the time I think, "Oh man, I'd feel like a total lame-o doing that on stage" and the other half it's "Hmmm...maybe we should do that on stage sometime".


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 09-14-08 7:18 PM
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59: My major breakthrough in teaching technique was realizing that I shouldn't worry about what the students think is LAME-O. Classroom teaching is not that different than other kinds of performance.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 09-14-08 7:23 PM
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Has anyone seen my family? They were supposed to be home an hour ago.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 09-14-08 8:11 PM
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Are you in Canada? The bears are swarming around this time of the year.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-14-08 8:19 PM
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61: they were like dude! dad's such a lame-o, let's go rock out at the emo fountain.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-14-08 8:19 PM
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i think ogged saw me once at flickr coz i can see his uploaded photos, but maybe not coz i don't know how long those pics were there, so most probably he did not see me b/c i deleted it the next day
i liked his moon scenery best


Posted by: read | Link to this comment | 09-14-08 9:22 PM
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read I think each of us can see you, in our imaginations. But to each of us, you appear differently.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-14-08 9:25 PM
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i'm glad to see he's well and great pics


Posted by: read | Link to this comment | 09-14-08 9:33 PM
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September, 13th
what attention i have


Posted by: read | Link to this comment | 09-14-08 10:00 PM
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re: 42

Sounds like there's a setting somewhere in the mixer software for your card that needs to be changed then. There's no reason why you need to be stuck with lag.

re: 47.2

Heebie's card _is_ a decent multi-in-out card.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 09-15-08 12:11 AM
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Heebie:

See paragraph two of the second comment here -

http://audacityteam.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=34

I assume the software for the Delta66 is similar to the Delta1010.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 09-15-08 12:14 AM
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Sounds like there's a setting somewhere in the mixer software for your card that needs to be changed then. There's no reason why you need to be stuck with lag.

If I read it right, she's recording a track to the PC and then playing back that track(s) while recording another track. Switching the monitor might be enough, but it might be a good idea to get a another (cheap?) sound card, and do track audio out via that card.

max
['Depending on where the lag is.']


Posted by: max | Link to this comment | 09-15-08 7:21 AM
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Best of all is handclaps with mixed meter, as in "The Tallest Man, The Broadest Shoulders".

Somebody should post this link on that metafilter thread.


Posted by: Merganser | Link to this comment | 09-15-08 7:44 AM
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re: 70
No, she has a proper 'pro' card that does multiple ins and outs. Her problem is the track being recorded is lagging behind the tracks being played [at least that what lagging normally means]. Buying a cheap second soundcard to solve lag in this situation would be like recommending someone buy a pedal bike, just to give their SUV that little extra push going up hill.

The signal path from instrument or mic to sound card to computer to operating system to software back to operating system and back to soundcard is almost always going to lag behind your playing/singing. And, if that's what you are listening to, you get a lag. The secret is either to use a very fast setup -- that minimizes lag -- or to monitor in hardware. So your playback of the track you are actually recording isn't via the software.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 09-15-08 7:54 AM
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except -- in my limited experience -- with African bands with significantly African audiences because, man, they know how to rock a hand clap.

I briefly watched a group of Zulu buskers doing an Isicathamiya number yesterday, and if I may be permitted to generalize wildly from a single data point, there seems to be a kernel of truth to the stereotype about Africans having a superior sense of rhythm.


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 09-15-08 4:25 PM
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and if I may be permitted to generalize wildly from a single data point

Take that permission away, and this blog dismantles itself.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 09-15-08 9:08 PM
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Best of all is handclaps with mixed meter, as in "The Tallest Man, The Broadest Shoulders".

As in "Bittern Storm over Ulm".


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-15-08 9:21 PM
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I can't completely get on board with the guitar in that song. But, still fun!


Posted by: Merganser | Link to this comment | 09-16-08 8:40 AM
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