Re: What?

1

Such is the case at a lot of strip clubs.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-23-08 11:49 PM
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Sifu's fruit swings to and fro.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-23-08 11:51 PM
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My ears hang down; I tie them in a knot.

I'm so fired.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-23-08 11:51 PM
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I'm continually embarrassed by how long it took me to figure out that was dirty.


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 09-23-08 11:59 PM
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I have gathered from previous posts that the employer in question was a conservative and old-fashioned fashion magazine, whereat all of the female staffers were required to wear Chanel suits. The pay scale did not necessarily provide for said suits, nor was a wardrobe allowance included.


Posted by: marichiweu | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 12:34 AM
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Except for 5, I would think it was a law firm, but that is because I am bitter and cynical and hate my own kind.

Although, I graduated from UCLA in 2005, and during my time there it was very rare to see a female law student in a pantsuit during interview season. Not that we couldn't them at work (everyone I knew did, except those who interned/clerked for old school judges), but it was really rare, and informally discouraged, to wear anything but a conservative skirt suit and stockings. Now that I'm up at Berkeley it's all much less traditional--pantsuits are a plenty during OCIP. Very weird to have two different cultures in the same state, and it was always weird to me that skirt suits were considered more traditional for a woman to wear, except that it comports with gender conventions. Unless you keep on the jacket, makes you look like a secretary/legal assistant.

I love skirts but hate skirt suits. But I think skirts are too sexy for teaching. I think I'm going to stick to pants.


Posted by: belle lettre | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 1:02 AM
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Oh and before people clamor with disagreement, my belief that skirts are too sexy for teaching is probably highly idiosyncratic and too conformist to the social construction of gender and sexuality, and I am a bad, bad feminist and sexual harassment scholar. But I am much closer in age and status to law students than law profs right now, and hearing the comments in the hallways makes me think I should cover and fug it up lest I be the subject of gossip.


Posted by: belle lettre | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 1:05 AM
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I thought that skirts/dresses used to be considered more modest in part because they hid the female body's form - this was back when silhouettes were considered revealing. Pants were too form-fitting, obviously (in addition to breaking with gender conventions). But that's changed* with changing fashions and mores.

*Or I'm wrong and that was never the case.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 1:09 AM
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Hmm, maybe. I think my trousers are pretty conservative though, which is why I like them. Not like those unflattering skinny hipster jans.

I've been watching a lot of Mad Men lately and my wardrobe has always been somewhat similar. I just look at the sheaths and pencil skits and heels and think "yowza", but I am too retro for my own good, and the women on Mad Men are crazy sexy cool.


Posted by: belle lettre | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 1:19 AM
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The history of the pantsuit does remains to be researched.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 1:57 AM
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does


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 1:58 AM
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So interesting. Once again, eb, you are the master researcher of all things online.


Posted by: belle lettre | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 2:16 AM
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I work in an office where the women lawyers were, until about six or seven years ago, supposed to always wear skirt suits. I'm very glad they changed the policy before I started working here, as I hate wearing tights.

When I was doing my training in a small country office I used to wear skirt suits all the time in order to try and distinguish myself from the secretary. (When middle-aged farmers (often complete with actual muck on their wellies) call in to their solicitor's office and are confronted with two young women in their early twenties, they tend to assume that both are support staff.)


Posted by: emir | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 4:16 AM
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6: Weird. In NYU in 1999, the same held true -- it was definitely encouraged that you'd interview in a skirt rather than pants. (I, of course, fell down a flight of stairs in my skirt suit, skinned my knee and split the skirt up the back ten minutes before an interview. Got the offer, though.)

But I assumed I hit the last year that was true, but there certainly was no such pressure in any office I've ever been in.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 5:35 AM
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Why are we assuming it's a woman writing? Maybe he used to work for the Scottish Highland Bagpiper's Association.


Posted by: mike d | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 6:01 AM
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I think I'm going to stick to pants.

That will be less of a problem if you wear underwear, belle lettre.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 6:06 AM
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i reiterate people ask what happened when i wear a skirt which happens sometimes
she looks very confident in herself, sure it's cute and appropriate for the event if one is confident in her looks
i recalled i watched on the fff the other day there was a woman wearing something like men's calesons, not white of course, and looked very glamourous


Posted by: read | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 6:33 AM
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I took a class once on a campus where wearing a dress evoked a lot of raised eyebrows. I was taken aback, to say the least, and rather out of sorts that unknown fellow teenagers felt free to comment on my wardrobe.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 6:58 AM
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5: Yeah, Jessica FugGirl has gone into some detail about this job in old posts. I'm not so sure it was a fashion mag (do they have old-fashioned fashion mags in LA?), but she's written about her old boss, who was in her 70s I think and favored very short skirts. Maybe I am making that up.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 6:59 AM
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American Apparel? Pants comprise a lot of skin-covering cloth.


Posted by: Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 7:02 AM
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I've mentioned this before, but, in my first year of practice (1992), it was a big deal the first time a female attorney (associate) wore a pants-suit. Scandal!! What will people think?!?!?!?


Posted by: Will | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 7:35 AM
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Now, my practice is mostly in the state courts.

The men are almost always dressed more formally than the women.

Female lawyers are dressing entirely too casually. Pants with sleeve-less tops and no jackets.


Posted by: Will | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 7:38 AM
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The really screwy thing about that is while lawyering is in theory indoors and no heavy lifting, there is actually a fair amount of schlepping boxes of documents around. Not on a large scale, but it's very common to find yourself in a conference room with 25 banker's boxes of documents, and you're working with one, then you move it onto the floor and pick up another, and so forth. Getting yourself into a situation where a short (by which I mean anything above knee length) skirt is an exposure problem is the kind of thing that would happen all the time.


Posted by: LizzrdBreath | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 7:39 AM
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22: True that. Women's business formal never really settled on the literal 'suit' rather than the 'outfit'. And while an 'outfit' (any combination of garments whatsoever that when put together looks ineffably formal and fashionable) can look perfectly formal if you're good at it and spend the money, for the rest of us mere mortals it's very easy to fall off the edge into casual. I don't go to court without a literal suit on, because if I tried with the 'outfit' thing, I'd look like I was dressed to do some gardening, given that that's what I look like mostly.

The beauty part of a suit is that you can look pretty scruffy, but you're still clearly at an appropriate level of formality.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 7:46 AM
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I'm continually embarrassed by how long it took me to figure out that was dirty.

The ears hang low song? I don't think it's dirty. There's a second, lesser-known verse that goes

Do your ears stand high?
Do they reach up to the sky?
Do they wrinkle when they're wet, do they straighten when they're dry?
Can you wave across the desert with a minimum of effort?
Do your ears stand high?

I think it's just a goofy kids song.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 7:47 AM
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I learned the "ears" song as a goofy kids' song, but as an adult assumed "ears" meant "balls". I'd never heard the second verse, but I can come up with an obscene reading pretty easily.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 7:57 AM
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25: Isn't that off a Ween record?


Posted by: Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 7:59 AM
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Female lawyers are dressing entirely too casually. Pants with sleeve-less tops and no jackets.

Oh noes!


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 7:59 AM
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as an adult assumed "ears" meant "balls"

This is generally a good assumption under which to operate. For instance, the expression, "I'm all ears", is widely misunderstood and misused.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 8:01 AM
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The beauty part of a suit is that you can look pretty scruffy, but you're still clearly at an appropriate level of formality.

Exactly right. This is why I kinda miss the world depicted in early '60s French cinema, when even the thieves wore suits and ties and tailored shirts, and their dire, unshaven visages contrasted with how well put together their clothes were.


Posted by: Bave Dee | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 8:03 AM
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28: Well, it comes out as a symbolic power imbalance. You end up in a courtroom with the judge in his very formal outfit, a bunch of middle-aged men in suits, and a few younger women in play-clothes.

Making standard courtroom dress business casual might be a good idea, but having it be casual for women, formal for men, doesn't work well for me.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 8:08 AM
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Oh noes!

True! Blue jeans and t-shirts in court for everyone!!

I always talk with my clients about wearing appropriate clothes to court. Judges can get very fussy about it. If you don't instruct them, the boys wear t-shirts and show underwear and the girls show too much skin.

Having said that, for certain people, a clean, presentable t-shirt is fine because they simply do not have dress shirts. But, they have to look like they are trying to look nice (which means respecting the court in the judge's eyes).

Also, I agree with LB in 23 and 24.


Posted by: Will | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 8:10 AM
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No bosses at work today. I'm wearing a t-shirt (along with my usual jeans and tennis shoes, but I usually wear a shirt with a collar). I also get to spend the day composing music for a short animation for one of our clients. Best work day ever.


Posted by: Bave Dee | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 8:13 AM
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Making standard courtroom dress business casual might be a good idea, but having it be casual for women, formal for men, doesn't work well for me.

It is certainly more difficult for women.

I can wear a suit. I can wear nice pants, a sports coat, a collared shirt, and a tie. Those are my choices.

The freedom that women have is incredibly dangerous. "Is she going to a club?" "Is she going gardening?" "Does she not respect the court?"


Posted by: Will | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 8:15 AM
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Women's business formal never really settled on the literal 'suit' rather than the 'outfit'.

That way you can maintain the need for more clothing purchases than men.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 8:16 AM
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Yeah, I hesitate to say more difficult, because we also have the easy option of the literal suit. (I am, myself, today looking scruffy in a suit. The last haircut I got was not a good one, and I look like a mop from the neck up. But my pants match my jacket, and my jacket has lapels, so I respected the Court at the conference I showed up for at 9 to be told it had been cancelled.)

What we have is more rope to hang ourselves with, not exactly a higher degree of difficulty. But it's still an issue.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 8:20 AM
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"I'm all ears", is widely misunderstood and misused

Obama has huge ears. I've always changed "ears" to "balls" in my head when I hear that song (and I have little kids, so it happens more often than you might think). However, I also change "like a continental soldier" to "like a pair of hairy boulders".


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 8:24 AM
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Suits are an awfully easy default. Most men don't wear good ones, and (more telling) don't wear ones that fit well. Hence, most men don't look that good in the suit they're wearing --- but it doesn't matter. It's just background, so if you're in the sort of game (e.g. lots of them) where this is the standard thing, you don't have to expend a lot of effort or money to just drift into the background. Which is fine for lots of folks. As LB notes, women are given a lot more rope.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 8:26 AM
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This is the part where I whine for the zillionth time about how great it would be to find a pantsuit that fits my gangly arms and legs. I would break down and have one made, except that starting from scratch seems too overwhelming -- too many choices.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 8:26 AM
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This is the part where I whine for the zillionth time about how great it would be to find a pantsuit that fits my gangly arms and legs. I would break down and have one made, except that starting from scratch seems too overwhelming -- too many choices.

Gold Lame, Kraab! Gold Lame. (Can't make that darn symbol!)


Posted by: Will | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 8:30 AM
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Yep. I went shopping with Dr. Oops, who's around your size, for a suit a few months ago, and she ended up spending the earth on Armani because their pants are sold unhemmed so can be finished at any length you like.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 8:30 AM
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39/41: I knew someone in that sort of situation who had tailored stuff sent out from Singapore/India unhemmed for that reason, then sorted out here. Much cheaper than Armani, anyway. Also, if you have one that fits right, you can have variants made that way cheap....


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 8:33 AM
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You know what I'd like to see come into fashion? Skirt suits with long (like, well past the knee) full or full-ish skirts. That's a surprisingly comfortable cut that you can do a lot of physical stuff in without worrying agout what you're wearing, and in which you could cheat on the tights issue and wear more sensible shoes than look reasonable with a short skirt. (Long straight skirts don't count. If running for a bus would involve falling down, I'm not wearing it.)

I've got nothing against skirts -- I live in them all summer. But in the winter, I want to be wearing more clothes than most businessy-skirts contemplate. I don't know why no one who designs suits seems to agree with me.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 8:44 AM
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Exactly right. This is why I kinda miss the world depicted in early '60s French cinema, when even the thieves wore suits and ties and tailored shirts, and their dire, unshaven visages contrasted with how well put together their clothes were.

God, yes. Everyone should dress like Belmondo.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 8:45 AM
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Skirt suits with long (like, well past the knee) full or full-ish skirts.

Long straight skirts make me feel like I look religious.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 8:55 AM
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Long straight skirts make me feel like I look religious.

You probably just shouldn't wear that with the lacy head covering, then ...


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 8:57 AM
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45: Well, yeah, because they haven't been sold as mainstream business wear for ages. If long, full, skirtsuits were in department stores and people wore them, they'd suddenly stop looking Hasidic and start looking ordinary.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 8:59 AM
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she ended up spending the earth on Armani because their pants are sold unhemmed so can be finished at any length you like

Whoa, that's not standard on women's suits? The sexism really is evil and pervasive.

I, too, would just like to voice my support for the jeans-and-tshirt workplace. The salary boost I would need to convince me to wear a suit each day is almost certainly pushing into the five digits range.

Some biglaw firm should just try it one year. Shave $10k off the starting salaries and the associates level pay, pull back the dress code to "cover skin", then create a little one-pager that shows the annual costs of multiple suits and dry cleaning to show that the post-tax post-clothing salary difference is almost nil. It'd be a way better cost-cutting measure than that "paperless office" bullshit.


Posted by: Po-Mo Polymath | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 9:00 AM
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||

The coots are starting to gather on Lake Wobegon. They aren't that thick yet so I'd guess the migration is a week or so away. Right now we just have the early coots.

The local undertaker died. He embalmed everyone in town who didn't embalm themselves. Funeral arrangements remain to be made.

|>


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 9:00 AM
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Skirt suits with long (like, well past the knee) full or full-ish skirts.

I have one of these that my mom got for me two years ago from Ann Taylor. The skirt comes down below my knee and has a little outward flip, so it's easy to walk in. The jacket is pretty basic, but with that skirt it's important that the top be at least somewhat nipped in at the waist.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 9:01 AM
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43: What do female Jewish Orthodox attorneys wear to court? I've seen those around law offices in long, full skirts and complementary jackets.

As late as 2003, at HLS women were warned to interview in skirt suits. I had one cream-colored one that I wore to OCI and was greeted at my callback as "that girl with the white suit."

No offer.


Posted by: Amber | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 9:01 AM
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True enough. They had a brief burst of popularity in the earlyish 90's IIRC. (I particularly remember an Orthodox friend in college saying how it was nice to blend in for a change.)


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 9:02 AM
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I don't know why no one who designs suits seems to agree with me.

Incompetence or malice? I say malice.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 9:02 AM
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start looking ordinary.
i've read somewhere that the skirt lenghth correlates with the economy wellbeing something


Posted by: read | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 9:04 AM
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Whoa, that's not standard on women's suits? The sexism really is evil and pervasive.

It really is. If you go shopping for a mens suit, there are very few style options, but there's a million sizes, and jackets and pants are sold mix and match -- there's no assumption that one size of jacket means the same size pants. And then the store alters it to really fit you as a matter of course.

Women, you go in and buy a 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, or whatever. If the pants are the wrong length, go find yourself your own tailor to see if maybe it's fixable, or find a different brand that caters to people who happen to built like you, if you can figure out who that would be. (Oh, I'm exaggerating -- there are some instore alterations. But it's not the core norm that it is for mens suits.)


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 9:05 AM
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However! The new sillouhette from Marc Jacobs calls for a longer skirt, not all of which are straight or pencil-cut. And since Marc Jacobs seems to own New York fashion, odds are that this look will disseminate across the price range.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 9:07 AM
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I, too, would just like to voice my support for the jeans-and-tshirt workplace. The salary boost I would need to convince me to wear a suit each day is almost certainly pushing into the five digits range.

There's nothing wrong with that salary boost condition, particularly if there is no obvious reason for them wanting you to do it (mine's probably about 20k in that situation). This is exactly the sort of expectation negotiation that should go into your job choices. At the very least you would want to insist on enough to cover ongoing wardrobe costs + pita factor. But given that more formal wear makes sense for some jobs, and will be insisted on in others, it's sort of a side-issue.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 9:07 AM
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53: What do female Jewish Orthodox attorneys wear to court?

Thing is, I want to dress ordinary. If no one's selling those suits as conventional, I'm sticking with pants rather than looking for places to find clothes that are professional but frum. I'd just like long full skirts to be conventional.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 9:07 AM
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You have to pay for alterations? Insanity!

Some biglaw firm should just try it one year.

But what will the clients think?!

The firm where I worked after college had a "cover skin" dress code for the legal ass'ts. That was nice.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 9:07 AM
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I'm finding myself falling hard for that Marc Jacobs 2009 look, btw. It's a sort of Gamine Indochine glamour.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 9:08 AM
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He's only gonna do you wrong. Just wait till next year.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 9:09 AM
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from soup's 38 - Hence, most men don't look that good in the suit they're wearing --- but it doesn't matter.

And if a woman wears a crappy suit (trousers or skirt) and looks a bit of a mess, it's looked upon as being worse than a man doing it.

Anyway, I can't get too worked up about this conversation. I stopped working outside the house when I was young enough and junior enough to wear incredibly short skirts every day.

What about cufflinks? Who wears them? C was saying recently that he was wondering about smartening himself up these days (trousers, shirt, tie, a jumper if it's cold, walking shoes or boots) as 3/4 of the people he is in meetings with are middle-aged men in cufflinks.


Posted by: asilon | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 9:20 AM
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But given that more formal wear makes sense for some jobs

I think this is false, though. I suppose if all you have to do is meet clients, then you have to dress better. That's why our salespeople are the best-dressed by far. But if you're not the person meeting clients, you shouldn't have to dress up at all. We get along pretty well with everyone keeping a shirt, jacket and tie at their desk in case they have to do a last-minute tv appearance, and since client meetings are arranged in advance, we just show up wearing nicer business casual (usually no tie) on those days.

And the long-term goal is to break the clients of the expectation that suit = credibility, but I know that's a battle that will continue for years to come.


Posted by: Po-Mo Polymath | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 9:21 AM
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What about cufflinks? Who wears them?

Slightly shady Iranian businessmen.

He's only gonna do you wrong.

Did you see those cute little straw hats? C'mon, that shit is awesome!


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 9:23 AM
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What about cufflinks? Who wears them?

People in very expensive or very old dress shirts. It's downright hard to find french cuff shirts these days, which is a bit of a shame since I would like to be able to wear my couple pairs of inherited cufflinks at least once.


Posted by: Po-Mo Polymath | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 9:23 AM
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Well-paid guys in very nice suits wear cufflinks -- it's a way (I believe) to signal that they're intending to actually look sharp, rather than simply touching the "yes, I'm wearing a suit" base.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 9:26 AM
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As someone who has worn the same paint-spattered jean-cut-offs almost every day for the past four months, I clearly have a pressing need for Gamine Indochine straw boaters and silk obis and tufted silk organza pencil skirts.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 9:27 AM
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63: Right, that's basically what I had in mind in terms of the jobs in which it `makes sense'


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 9:28 AM
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There was a brief attempt by Republicans to spread the meme that Democrats hate the working class because Joe Biden wears cufflinks, but the media didn't take the bait.


Posted by: CN | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 9:28 AM
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What about cufflinks?

When I was my friend's best man, he gave me (among other things) cuff links made from old typewriter keys bearing my initials and a pipe. At the time, I thought they were great gifts, but I realize I have used neither in the three years since nor will I likely use them any time soon.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 9:29 AM
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66: Yeah, that's the problem with ubiquity.

Po-Mo, you can have shirts made to order locally at mid-range prices ($75 ish?) and that would give you the option of French cuffs....


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 9:30 AM
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I bought a couple of shirts by accident recently that have french cuffs. They are still sufficiently common here that I could just pick up a couple of shirts in packets and not realize until I got home.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 9:31 AM
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72: That doesn't surprise me at all. On average, Americans dress down (more in some areas than others, obviously) relative to most of Europe.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 9:32 AM
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erm, `most of Europe' really should have been `the bits of Europe I'm familiar with'.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 9:32 AM
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LB,

(I, of course, fell down a flight of stairs in my skirt suit, skinned my knee and split the skirt up the back ten minutes before an interview. Got the offer, though.)

Good on ya, although I do think your 'show more leg' approach is a wee bit unfair to men.

On this topic, I'm pretty sure the Mayo clinic strongly recommends their employees 'dress up,' meaning skirts for the women and sports coats for the men.

Hospital workers may wear scrubs when appropriate.

And this is OT but if you haven't seen the "Debt to America" clip from last night's Daily show you are missing something great. See it!


Posted by: Tripp | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 9:34 AM
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I have used neither in the three years since

And whose fault is that? You could pull off an acceptable Dr. Van Nostrum from the Institute with just those two items.


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 9:34 AM
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67: I've been digging on Doo.Ri's collection, which is the colonial counterpart to your favored subcontinental look. Also accessible, also colorful, wearable—but less flow-y.


Posted by: Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 9:36 AM
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On average, Americans dress down

Many Kenyans look down on American tourists because "we dress like peasants."

Who knew?


Posted by: Tripp | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 9:36 AM
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I'm always surprised by the suit-hate. To even get to business casual, I still end up with drycleaning, and once I'm drycleaning, a matching jacket and pants is easy and comfortable.

Is this all about ties? I imagine ties would suck, but isn't the solution there to redefine the men's suit as tieless?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 9:38 AM
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68: Comity! T-shirts and jeans for the countersignaling win!

71: Hmm... Pretty much the only dress shirts I own that are suitable for formalwear are custom, but they cost about $120-150 about 6 years ago. I'm kind of surprised you can get stuff made to order for much cheaper. That would be promising though. I really want to get a french-cuffed fitted shirt in a deep pink, and I doubt I'll find anything off-the-rack like that which could be tailored to fit.


Posted by: Po-Mo Polymath | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 9:38 AM
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79: Oh, I hate business casual, too. It's less expensive than a decent suit, but no less annoying to wear. Jeans/shorts and a t-shirt or bust.


Posted by: Po-Mo Polymath | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 9:40 AM
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Did you see those cute little straw hats? C'mon, that shit is awesome!

I didn't see them, 'cause I don't follow fashion, thanks.

It's downright hard to find french cuff shirts these days

It is? The last time I got dress shirts (when suit-buying for sis's wedding) I was offered french cuffs. I didn't own any cufflinks, though.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 9:41 AM
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I have used neither in the three years since nor will I likely use them any time soon.
maybe you can make holes in one of your shirts' cuffs with or without embroidering and wear the cufflinks sometimes, no? with jeans
if it's a present from your friend i mean just to honour them


Posted by: read | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 9:42 AM
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I've accidentally bought shirts with French cuffs at Filene's Basement. And doesn't Brooks Brothers stock them?


Posted by: Bave Dee | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 9:42 AM
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isn't the solution there to redefine the men's suit as tieless?

I go years at a time between ties. But as I've said, I get to play the Design Professional card - nice pants, distinctive shirt fabric, and either linen or camelhair jacket, and I'm good. If I didn't have a couple ties I really like, I would probably wear them exclusively to funerals.

But I think we've covered all this.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 9:43 AM
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Cufflinks 100% True Fact: ogged's preferred upscale men's clothing store sells links that are remarkably similar and perhaps even come from the same source, except for around $250.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 9:44 AM
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Hemline index-
http://loansbyirene.wordpress.com/2008/08/19/economic-theory-the-hemline-index/

Prediction- maxis- back in style!


Posted by: Tassled Loafered Leech | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 9:44 AM
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It's downright hard to find french cuff shirts these days

As was noted when the rightwing was trying to make fun of Biden's French cuffs, you can get them for $37.50 at Penney's. Not exotic.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 9:45 AM
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LB,

This is a generalization but to me dress clothes are the opposite of what they should be in regards to warmth. The suit coat heats up an already warm man, and the sundress cools down an already cool woman.

If comfort was important then women would wear the jacket and men would wear the open shoulders. You can tell I first thought about this while sweltering during an August wedding (not mine) in a non-air-conditioned church. I so wished that I could have ditched the jacket and buttoned collar.


Posted by: Tripp | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 9:45 AM
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Sorry, 69 doesn't exactly pwn 88, but 88 should have better reflected the existence of 69.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 9:46 AM
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The last time I got dress shirts (when suit-buying for sis's wedding) I was offered french cuffs.

Huh. When and where? I wonder if it was partly a seasonal thing or if I've just looked at the wrong stores. It's not like I've scoured the local stores, but usually if I'm shopping I'll glance at the dress shirts, and french cuffs have seemed very rare.

84: Brooks Brothers probably would. But for that expense and the amount of tailoring their shirts would need, I could probably just get a couple made custom. I guess that's my biggest stumbling block once it gets up to any pricier shirt brands.


Posted by: Po-Mo Polymath | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 9:48 AM
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I imagine ties would suck

I like ties, but I hardly ever have reason to wear them. I might change my mind if I wore one daily.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 9:48 AM
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Jroth,

If I had my way the only time I would ever wear a tie is at a funeral - mine.


Posted by: Tripp | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 9:48 AM
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PoMo, you need to come to New York. As to French cuffs, in my own narrow circumstances, they are not hard to find at all, in fact they are hard to avoid. I buy all of CA's dress shirts at Century 21. The shirts are high-end but at relatively cheap prices: Yves St. Laurent, Valentino, Hickey Freeman, Hugo Boss shirts for $50 or $60 a pop. I'd say about a third of the shirts on display have French cuffs. CA, despite having a couple of lovely pairs of cufflinks that were his grandfather's, finds French cuffs de trop and will only wear them sometimes. I say, if continental philosophy profs can't wear them, then who can?


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 9:49 AM
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Many Kenyans look down on American tourists because "we dress like peasants."

Latin Americans, too. To be fair, backpackers do dress like peasants.


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 9:49 AM
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91: Nordstrom, late summer of last year. Ended up getting shirts made and was (obviously) offered french cuffs there, too.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 9:50 AM
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Yeah, Men's Wearhouse (I know they're declasse, but they carry a line of tapered shirrts that fit my neck size--I'm a big guy, but I carry a lot of my weight in the neck/shoulder/upper toorsos--standard cut shirts blouse out and look ridiculous on me) carries a wide assortment of french cuffed shirts, which I like both because I like to rock cufflinks occasionally and because the sleeves roll up in way that makes the shirts work quite nicely with a pair of jeans.


Posted by: Chopper | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 9:50 AM
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The trick with ties is to wear shirts with the appropriate collar size so that buttoning the last button is still comforatble. If you've got that down, ties are no biggie.


Posted by: Chopper | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 9:52 AM
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maybe you can make holes in one of your shirts' cuffs with or without embroidering and wear the cufflinks sometimes, no? with jeans

My current attire is jeans and an untucked cheap-ish dress shirt with the (non-French) cuffs unbuttoned. I suppose I could wear the cuff links in my unbuttoned cuffs just for kicks, and I just might do so one day. Take that, fashion rules!


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 9:52 AM
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78 - I have to watch myself when I go back to visit family in Botswana for this reason. I dress somewhat scruffy even by US standards, which makes me come across as a hobo there. It's a little odd to have to pay more attention to appearance when I'm on vacation than when I'm at work.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 9:52 AM
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77.---I dunno, 'Smasher. I'm not inspired by the look. The Jacobs line I'd call less flowy because it's more constructed, with a more defined waistline. The Doo.Ri cuts would be rather difficult for me to pull off successfully; my figure is what the style books call "top-heavy," so the little-girl dresses and pouchy tops look sort of obscene on me.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 9:56 AM
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Huh, damn. Apparently they just don't think people in Chicago have cufflinks. Sorry people, for requiring my wrongness to be pointed out so thoroughly.

I really should get a more couple shirts made up sometime. It is just so hard to justify it to myself when my t-shirts cost $10-15 and fit as well as a custom dress shirt. (Sometimes the shirt costs $20 if the band is from the UK or Australia, thanks to the damn weak dollar)


Posted by: Po-Mo Polymath | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 9:56 AM
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looking Hasidic

I have kind of a thing for this look - not the dour, all-black version, but the young woman, purple-and-dark blue one. I don't think it's the religious/social implications, because I rather like the ethnic look (curly hair, full lips, rounded nose) as a whole.

I apologize if any of this comes across wrong. AFAIK, Hasidophilia doesn't have the same queasy undertones as a taste for Asian girls, but what do I know?


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 9:56 AM
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foolishmortal,

Latin Americans, too. To be fair, backpackers do dress like peasants.

I agreed with the Kenyans. And it is not just backpackers. Jeans (or jean shorts) and a t-shirt are common attire in many places around the US. In general many Kenyans rarely wore short pants.


Posted by: Tripp | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 9:56 AM
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89: I've actually suspected that most of the difference in preferred temperature is that men's clothes are just an awful lot warmer than womens, regardless of the season.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 9:57 AM
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There's no shame in wanting to find a nice Jewish girl, JRoth.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 9:57 AM
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men's clothes are just an awful lot warmer than womens, regardless of the season.

I think I've mentioned my occasional skirt envy in the summer.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 9:58 AM
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100: Contorting oneself to be acceptable to family isn't odd IME.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 9:58 AM
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but isn't the solution there to redefine the men's suit as tieless?

Suit jackets nearly universally look bad without ties. Ties look bad without jackets. 85 points at one method of avoiding this, but it's hardly accepted across the board, and requires different jackets and shirts.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 9:59 AM
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107: Male Peace Corps Volunteers openly mourned the loss of their floral sarongs (and sharply tailored wraparound skirts for business wear) when they left Samoa.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 10:00 AM
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Jackmormon, are you or are you not going to link to this fabulous new look?


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 10:00 AM
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108: My family doesn't care at all how I dress - it's everyone else.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 10:01 AM
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105: Yeah, perhaps global warming will end the reign of the suit. If men didn't have to show up to an office in three layers in the summertime, they could ease off the arctic chill air conditioning. I always find it pretty ridiculous that women have to shiver in cardigans indoors all summer long.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 10:04 AM
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People who are laughed out of Kenya and Latin America should come to Wobegon.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 10:04 AM
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109: Yeah, for a traditional suit and shirt pairing, it really needs a tie. But it seems to me that the JRoth/creative professional style is becoming much more common, though I still think of it as business casual instead of formal. It looks better than all but the sharpest of suits, too.


Posted by: Po-Mo Polymath | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 10:04 AM
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There's no shame in wanting to find a nice Jewish girl, JRoth.

Well there is now.

For the record (not sure if I've noted this here before), my last name does not indicate any Hebraic background - just German (not to mention that it's an adoption name anyway). But in Miami we always got junkmail from neighborhood synagogues who would assume.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 10:06 AM
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LB,

men's clothes are just an awful lot warmer than womens, regardless of the season.

Yes, and I have always disliked that fact. Not that anyone ever listens to me regarding fashion.


Posted by: Tripp | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 10:06 AM
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113: I used to think this too, but was told by a plant engineer that there are technical reasons to maintain a certain amount of temperature differential (something about condensation control or the like, I forget).


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 10:06 AM
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If men didn't have to show up to an office in three layers in the summertime, they could ease off the arctic chill air conditioning.

They could also wear more linen or whatever.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 10:07 AM
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Oh, I'm sorry. I had tried to link it in 56. Here's another try. LINK.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 10:07 AM
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becoming much more common, though I still think of it as business casual instead of formal. It looks better than all but the sharpest of suits, too.

There is an east-west shift in this too.

Of course, being an academic, I don't really have to care about conforming to particular expectations the way a lot in business do.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 10:08 AM
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John,

People who are laughed out of Kenya and Latin America should come to Wobegon.

It wasn't by chance that I chose to settle down in Minnesota. Actually I bet it wasn't by chance that my German ancestors chose to live in Minnesota either. Same with my Polish ancestors.


Posted by: Tripp | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 10:08 AM
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That second outfit would look a lot better on someone with a less dour facial expression. Most of this stuff seems pretty overwrought, though.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 10:10 AM
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97/98: Sounds like you're lucky then, most men can't actually buy off the rack stuff that fits well. Unlike women, though, men have converged on just accepting poor fits as normal.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 10:10 AM
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Thank god no one expects academics to look that nice.

I'm in the process of growing my hair out.* It looks like hell now because it isn't quite long enough to get into a pony tail. I think I will look "ok for a professor" with a pony tail, but right now my hair is even more crazy sticky-outy than it usually is.


____
* Because I am forty, and had long hair in college. Yes, this is my midlife crises response (also my "finally in a secure job" response). At least I am not buying a sports car or having an affair with an undergraduate.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 10:11 AM
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Orientalism plus a boater!


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 10:12 AM
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Thank god no one expects academics to look that nice.

I think it's more that nobody expects academics to look the same. Thinking only of professionally employed people I know, most of the `best' and `worst' dressers are academics.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 10:13 AM
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I assume the bag contains a fearsome array of prophylactics and sex toys.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 10:13 AM
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further to 127: granted, there are probably more of the latter. Very few mediocre suits though (at least, as daily wear)


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 10:14 AM
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But it seems to me that the JRoth/creative professional style is becoming much more common, though I still think of it as business casual instead of formal.

Agreed. I don't actually know how other, socially adept people would view it in a more formal setting (the only time I ever appeared before a judge, I wore my wedding suit, which was quite the contrast with others who were there, let me tell you), but I rely on my pass as An Architect. Plus, there's usually at least one stand-out element - really sharp slacks, or a nubby shirt fabric - that establishes, "Hey, I didn't just pick this whole thing up for $20 at Marshall's."


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 10:14 AM
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This is just ridiculous.

Presumably the idea is that other people will come along later and rescue the good ideas.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 10:15 AM
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130: I've seen this suits vs. creatives thing at work in quite a few places.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 10:17 AM
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Overwrought? W-lfs-n, this is runway shit. Of course it's overwrought.

Orientalism plus a boater!

You know that's the way I rock.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 10:17 AM
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I'm sure it would look divine on you, JM.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 10:18 AM
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125: I'm doing the same thing. It's just barely ponytail length right now. Cursed male pattern baldness makes it look like crap, but I'm doing it because I like playing with it, not for looks. The long term plan is to experiment with shaving nearly the whole head and leaving a patch of long hair at the back. Shaved scalp feels incredibly cool, and the patch will leave me something to play with. My hair is very fine and soft, so it's sort of like having a cat on your head. The intermediate stages will probably involve something like a tonsure, just to see what it feels like.

This is why I can't have a job in the more conservative professions.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 10:18 AM
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124:

Harumphf. I'm playing misery poker here, but look at the contrast in how many sizes are offered, and how many dimensions each size varies on, between Brooks Brothers' men's and women's sizes.

I count 34 different casual pants sizes for men; ten for women. And pants, shirts, jackets all have separate sizing paradigms for men. Women? Everything is the same ten sizes.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 10:18 AM
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I already have the boater.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 10:19 AM
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43: Here you go.


Posted by: mcmc | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 10:19 AM
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a hat and no skirt, that's very unconventional
must be very confident in oneself to wear that irl i guess
i recalled my dream i walked barefoot on the streets and maybe even skirtless, i don't remember exactly, it looked pretty much like this
remember the feeling of asphalt
the dream interpretation was fear of poverty


Posted by: read | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 10:20 AM
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131: My god, she looks like she's on her way to milk a very expensive cow. I know where you find these things, but wonder why.


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 10:20 AM
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Unlike women, though, men have converged on just accepting poor fits as normal.

So true. This is the other half of my deep dislike of formal clothing, aside from the comfort-for-10-straight-hours issue. I'm somewhat of a stickler for fit in most of my clothes, and men's jackets and shirts are just cut far too huge for my liking while doing the amount of tailoring necessary and getting it done well would be quite expensive. But I can get a t-shirt right off the rack (or merch table, to be more accurate).

I have no quarrel with suit pants, however. I've found flat-front pants actually fit better than jeans, provided they come in my waist size.

125: I'm suspicious of the profs who dress very nicely. One it was sort of explained by the fact that he was European, but still the sheer quality of his suits remained a mystery. Later I learned that he's affiliated with a major hedge fund, and that explained the rest.


Posted by: Po-Mo Polymath | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 10:21 AM
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foolish, I found that from Jackmormon's link.

I already have the boater.

I expect to see you in it, the next time I see you.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 10:21 AM
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136: Which is bizarrely due to increased variation in womens shapes --- the industry threw up it's hands at the thought of trying to cover the bases.

If it helps at all, the arm-length + neck size thing doesn't work well either, this is why it's so typical to see a guy take of his jacket and watch his shirt balloon out at the back. Looked ok with the jacket on, so why have it fitted?


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 10:22 AM
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the industry threw up it's hands at the thought of trying to cover the bases.

Or decided that there was no loss in not adequately serving women who aren't shaped like fitting models -- they can go wrap themselves in tarps or something.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 10:23 AM
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The long term plan is to experiment with shaving nearly the whole head and leaving a patch of long hair at the back.

Please, the hippie samurai look is ridiculous. I feel for you, brother, but choose something else.


Posted by: Tassled Loafered Leech | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 10:24 AM
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Sounds like an old-fashioned way of telling someone to piss off. "Ah, why don'tcha go wrap yourself in a tarp."


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 10:24 AM
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Or decided that there was no loss in not adequately serving women who aren't shaped like fitting models -- they can go wrap themselves in tarps or something.

There might be something to this, but I'm not sure. Consider just fitting pants, for example. Mens pant sizes work well for most mens shapes, but if you add a huge variation of hip to waist ratios you have a real problem. Not that I'm disagreeing they should be able to do better than they do. Do many women just have adjustments done as a matter of course?


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 10:26 AM
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Alright, you haters, what about number 35 in the slideshow: surely you agree that it's pretty! (I tried to link to it but only got a java command, sorry.)


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 10:26 AM
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I wish I could wear sarongs. Well, maybe I could. Maybe for UnfoggeDCon.


Posted by: Bave Dee | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 10:27 AM
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This one, JM?

Mmmmmmmnope. I could imagine something with that basic design being very fetching, if the patterns were different and not printed on something that looks like the tinfoil.

The obi+sat-upon boater combo that practically all of these have in common kind of grates, too.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 10:30 AM
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I bet you could pull it off, Bave.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 10:30 AM
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Here is what I hate about suits:

1. If I wear a skirt, I have to wear stockings.
2. If I wear pants, I look bad, as the only pants I look good in are those styled like jeans.
3. What to wear with the skirt and the jacket? Blouses are annoying: they gap at the buttons and always seem too voluminous to fit sleekly under the jacket. Sleeveless shell things mean you can't ever take the jacket off. Other pullover tops? I don't know. Do you have to tuck those in?


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 10:30 AM
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Philistine.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 10:30 AM
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Wait a minute, are you guys saying there are sites on the web where one can look at different clothes and the sizes and stuff and even order the clothes for delivery?

Wow. You can get *anything* on the internet.


Posted by: Tripp | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 10:31 AM
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153 to 150.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 10:31 AM
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Welcome to 1996, Tripp.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 10:31 AM
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Do many women just have adjustments done as a matter of course?

No, they drive themselves insane trying to find something that fits off the rack.

Mens pant sizes work well for most mens shapes, but if you add a huge variation of hip to waist ratios you have a real problem.

It's hard to argue, though, that more sizes would be better, no? Like, if you gave us the same 34 pants sizes the men get, we could spend them on 6 waistbands x three inseams x two options for waist-hip ratio, and knock out two sizes at the extremes so as to keep it fair. More variation in body-type = less variation in available clothes sizes seems like a bogus solution.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 10:32 AM
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Prove me wrong, Jack.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 10:33 AM
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LB- Brooks Brothers is a men's store. Don't let the fact that they carry some women's clothes fool you.

A while back my wife tried to get me to switch from BB to Armani, but I drifted back. I think that the clients are more at ease with the more traditional suit. The expensive ones make them think that they are paying too much.


Posted by: Tassled Loafered Leech | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 10:33 AM
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149: Do it, Bave -- enter the world of unbifurcated garments!


Posted by: Lizardbreath | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 10:34 AM
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More variation in body-type = less variation in available clothes sizes seems like a bogus solution.

Oh, I agree, I can just see how manufacturers want to avoid it. What surprises me a little is that some womens retailers haven't tried to gain share by offering a lot more variation. Or perhaps they did and it didn't catch on?


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 10:35 AM
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159: LB- Brooks Brothers is a men's store. Don't let the fact that they carry some women's clothes fool you.

If you can find me a women's store that carries the same set of pants in 34 sizes, varying on two dimensions, I will buy a hat and eat it.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 10:35 AM
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1. If I wear a skirt, I have to wear stockings.

Wait, why?

the only pants I look good in are those styled like jeans.

You can get pants styled like jeans (you mean in the cut, right?) in any fabric. I like flannels and wools.

Sleeveless shell things mean you can't ever take the jacket off.

Wait, what? Why not? I'm wearing one of those sleeveless shell things right now---it's nice and soft and insulating---with a big ol' cardigan for slumpiness. Remove the cardigan, add a jacket, and I could walk into any office. Add pearls or something, and I could take off the jacket and go to dinner.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 10:35 AM
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I will buy a hat and eat it.

But will that hat be basically two-dimensional?


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 10:36 AM
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136, 143: What I noticed in the men's section is that there's only about a 1" difference between the chest and waist circumferences on their slim cut shirts. Most dress shirts are cut like men are a rectangle, as are most men's jackets (and not just for suits). This is probably the single weirdest thing they do that prevents men's clothing from fitting better. Even the designer stuff that's cut for slimmer, more in-shape folks merely assumes that men are skinnier rectangles.

None of this has much on the sheer crappiness of women's clothing at fitting the wider possible variety of female shapes. A friend of mine who's about to finish law school had so much trouble that she just bought a dress form so she can do her own tailoring. It has about 12-15 different dials to control the circumference at different points and the lengths between the simulated bust, waist, and hips, which staggered me when I realized just how many dimensions there are that affect the fit of women's clothes.


Posted by: Po-Mo Polymath | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 10:36 AM
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Welcome to 1996, Tripp.

I wish. For the economy if nothing else. Add the price of gas and I'm loving it. Sigh.


Posted by: Tripp | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 10:36 AM
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If you can find me a women's store that carries the same set of pants in 34 sizes, varying on two dimensions, I will buy a hat and eat it.

I have always believed that fashion designers actually hate women. Or don't know any.


Posted by: Tassled Loafered Leech | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 10:37 AM
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168

Wait, what? Why not? I'm wearing one of those sleeveless shell things right now---it's nice and soft and insulating---with a big ol' cardigan for slumpiness. Remove the cardigan, add a jacket, and I could walk into any office. Add pearls or something, and I could take off the jacket and go to dinner.

Because I am not about to take my jacket off in the middle of a lecture and expose my armpits. I'm not talking about taking off my jacket to go to dinner, I'm talking about taking it off in the middle of the suit-wearing experience, when things get a little more relaxed.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 10:38 AM
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Are you worried about driving your students wild or something? What's wrong with armpits?


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 10:39 AM
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Gah, I have to go catch a bus. I am wearing a gray dress and ballet flats because I'm going to the business school. Tell me again why there are different dress codes per school, and why they are dressier than law school. Damn the MBA crowd. The OB/IR people are always trying to dress the same, except we have no money.


Posted by: belle lettre | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 10:39 AM
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What I noticed in the men's section is that there's only about a 1" difference between the chest and waist circumferences on their slim cut shirts.

It's all about averages. The more fitted you're cutting, the fewer people it will actually `fit'. Boxy is what you get when you want to fit someone with a potbelly and someone with none in the same shirt, etc.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 10:40 AM
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145:hippie samurai look

That's a great line. It's unfortunate that there's a whole subculture of pasty white guys trying to come across as latter-day ninjas, which makes my plan inadvertently associate myself with hosers. I've been considering possibly offsetting the patch so that it's all on the left side to break that association, or perhaps doing one patch on each side. Two ponytails and I'll look like a cross between a skinhead and Pipi Longstocking.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 10:40 AM
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What I noticed in the men's section is that there's only about a 1" difference between the chest and waist circumferences on their slim cut shirts.

It's all about averages. The more fitted you're cutting, the fewer people it will actually `fit'. Boxy is what you get when you want to fit someone with a potbelly and someone with none in the same shirt, etc.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 10:40 AM
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You know, bl, you could just say, fuck the b-school, and wear something you want to wear.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 10:40 AM
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I realized just how many dimensions there are that affect the fit of women's clothes.

Yeah, and didn't I hear awhile ago about some clothing company actually spending some money to research the actual dimensions of actual women instead of using the previous inaccurate models?

That was pretty amazing to me - that they had been selling stuff without actually doing any basic market research. I'm no business major but it seemed to me that researching your customers and their needs was an obvious thing to do.


Posted by: Tripp | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 10:41 AM
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I don't know about in the US, but in the UK, women's trousers do come in two dimensions.

There's the size - 10, 12, 14, etc and there's a length measurement - short, medium, long.

That isn't massively different from many men's clothing stores: you get a waist measurement and then short, regular or long.

It's true that for formal trousers and suits you often get measured/numbered lengths - 34 inch waist with 30 inch leg, 38 inch waist with 32, 34 or 36, etc. But in a lot of places there will only actually be three or four length fittings for a particular waist measurement.

I know, as I'm fat enough that in quite a few places the waist fittings that fit me are always too long.

Of course, in some places there really is a bigger range -- and that does seem to be absent for women.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 10:42 AM
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If anyone be concerned about armpit-exposure, it should probably be me. I probably *shouldn't* let my (sparse, somewhat groomed) armpit hair see the light of day, but, well, eh.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 10:42 AM
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Tell me again why there are different dress codes per school

Americans are weird.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 10:43 AM
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You know what I really want to take off, and thought was happening but haven't seen much of in clothes lately? That whole 'mass produced customization' thing.

Lands End or someplace, a while back, had a virtual fitting model -- you type in measurements, and it makes a little cartoon you and tells you what size you are in their stuff. This seems brilliant to me, but I don't actually want Lands End clothes, and I want the retailers that I would like to shop in to make many more sizes varying in more dimensions that precisely fit my model, IYSWIM.

I'm sure this sort of exists, somewhere, but I want it be ubiquitous.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 10:43 AM
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No, JM, don't be shy! Show your elegantly hirsute pits with pride!


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 10:43 AM
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Two ponytails and I'll look like a cross between a skinhead and Pipi Longstocking.

As long as you don't look to performance artisty, which would be my fear. But I have JFK hair, so what do I know.


Posted by: Tassled Loafered Leech | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 10:44 AM
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For the record, Ben, this---Presumably the idea is that other people will come along later and rescue the good ideas.----is roughly accurate.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 10:45 AM
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Are you worried about driving your students wild or something? What's wrong with armpits?

I don't wear a suit to teach, but for job talks and that kind of thing. Armpits just seem like an outrageous drop in formality to me from the formality of a suit, and indeed I wouldn't wear a sleeveless top to teach in. Plus, probably my armpits will have developed 5 o'clock shadow by the time I would hope to take my jacket off, and my shoulders are especially bony and vulnerable looking, which contributes to the lack of formality.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 10:45 AM
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Tell me again why there are different dress codes per school

Just wear scrubs and pretend you're a lost med school student, you'll never want to wear anything else to class. Seriously, getting scrubs considered as professional garb for their occupation was probably the biggest coup that doctors have ever managed.

And your business school has a dress code? Ouch.


Posted by: Po-Mo Polymath | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 10:45 AM
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||

Hey, guess who's giving a speech on political campaign tactics at a $5000 a plate dinner here in my very city, this very evening? Why, none other than Karl fucking Rove! Isn't that fucking precious.

|>


Posted by: DS | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 10:46 AM
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180.---Oh, I do. Or rather, so I end up doing.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 10:46 AM
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And your business school has a dress code? Ouch.

In all likelihood, it doesn't, but BL is anxious about fitting in. When Vanderwheel called Amber a caricature of Goffmanian anxiety, he didn't realize he was addressing the wrong person.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 10:47 AM
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124: I didn't say my clothes fitted well--I've just now reached parity with the slimmer slobs. Someday, either after I'm no longer paying for daycare or after I lose a bunch of weight (and I think I know which will be sooner), I'll go to the trouble of getting tailored stuff. I'd love to rock the creative professional look like JRoth, but my line of work is such that I have to look like a suit even though my work is basically translating creative-to-suit and vice versa. If I look like a creative, I knock way too many points off my Credibility Score.


Posted by: Chopper | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 10:47 AM
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On the armpit thing, I misunderstood the type of shirt and thought it was a perspiration issue, which is yet another problem with taking the jacket off for men and women. Some people are pretty sweaty.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 10:49 AM
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Americans are weird.

Notwithstanding the truth value of above, I don't see the fairness in forcing students to maintain an entire wardrobe as if they were properly employed. Insisting on a decent interview suit or whatever is different.

It's particularly pathetic to see this effect at the intersection of business schools at universities with typically lower-income bracket draws.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 10:50 AM
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My very favorite jeans ever (and the first (only?) pair I ever spent more than $30 on) are women's jeans that came with waist/inseam sizing. Of course, being accustomed to 6-8-10-12 etc. sizing, I had no idea where to begin. But I could really get used to picking out pants with that sizing. (The petite-average-tall options are at least some help, but IME "tall" often means "ginormous,"when all I really want is an inch or two more than "average.")


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 10:51 AM
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It's particularly pathetic to see this effect ,,,

Especially when it's socially, not officially driven.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 10:52 AM
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but BL is anxious about fitting in

Oh, in that case the dress code less important than the attitude. Since you're female, you should put on a garishly large engagement ring or a wedding band, otherwise the thirty-something full-time students will assume you're an undergrad taking the course and will invite you out to a b-school kegger. Also, don't worry about paying attention so much. You're just there to read the notes and get your B, like 80% of the class. Drop a few semi-disappointed mentions of how you've had to switch from finance to general management, since hedge funds aren't hiring and I-Banks are just turning glorified deposit takers. You should fit in just fine, BL.


Posted by: Po-Mo Polymath | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 10:53 AM
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Oh indeed, perspiration is an issue too. Life is full of trials.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 10:53 AM
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Two ponytails and I'll look like a cross between a skinhead and Pipi Longstocking.
that's our old national childhood hairstyle, now obsolete, the ponytails were rather short though
what i find very interesting is that the jeans fit everyone, obese people wear jeans exactly fitting them like gloves, i thought maybe those are some custom made jeans or there are some coded sizes which i don't notice in the mall


Posted by: read | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 10:53 AM
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I think that's probably jeans that fit reasonably, made out of stretchy fabric, rather than perfectly tailored jeans.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 11:09 AM
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196: convergence of spandex and big-n-tall shops.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 11:20 AM
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rfts, what about the short-sleeved shell?


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 11:23 AM
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convergence of spandex

I am going to assume that the "chicks" on Mad Men look good in the form fitting clothes because of their slim figures, as opposed to the foundation garments that the actual women depicted would have worn.


Posted by: Tassled Loafered Leech | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 11:23 AM
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I believe there is a Senator's office where female employees are supposedly required to wear skirts *and* pantyhose at all times.

Battlestar Galactica, which I watched obsessively for like 1.5 seasons until I realized that literally nothing funny ever happened and I couldn't take it anymore.

This is SO TRUE! I always wondered why I could never get through a season of Galactica, why it on the one hand seemed sort of brilliant, but always eventually turned boring and grim and no fun to watch, and this is it.

Is exposure a problem?


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 11:24 AM
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rfts, what about the short-sleeved shell?

That seems like the best option, but with these (and often sleeveless ones too) I never quite know what to do around the waist. Tuck in? Not?


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 11:24 AM
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looked like regular a little bit thinned maybe denim though
but maybe you are right, stretchy fabrics when stretched maybe do not look like stretchy ones


Posted by: read | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 11:24 AM
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as opposed to the foundation garments that the actual women depicted would have worn.

Given what I know about the showrunner's obsession with authenticity, I think it is extremely likely that they are wearing historically accurate foundation garments.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 11:25 AM
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86. Ben, those are great cufflinks. I have to wear suits for work (plus I look better in one) and I have some shirts with French cuffs. I think I'll buy a pair of those. $65 is a good price. Thanks.


Posted by: md 20/400 | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 11:26 AM
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my shoulders are especially bony and vulnerable looking

Keep an eye out for job ads with "only waifs need apply."


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 11:26 AM
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Posted by: | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 11:27 AM
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201: That is a problem. Things either don't stay tucked in or look all blousy, and there are only so many times can you go to the restroom and hitch up your skirt and pull the shirttail down. One must find something that hits at exactly the right length and is neither too tight nor too baggy so it looks okay untucked. Or else go back to 1986 and wear a 5"-wide belt.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 11:31 AM
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I am going to assume that the "chicks" on Mad Men look good in the form fitting clothes because of their slim figures, as opposed to the foundation garments that the actual women depicted would have worn.

199 gets it right. Iwas annoyed by Matthew Weiner's interview on Fresh Air the other day. They were talking about the wardrobe, and he was saying that the costume designer had brought a fascinating thing to his attention. Back in the 50s, the desired body shape for a woman changed with the fashions, so women would have to wear uncomfortable garments when in public, for example the bullet bra. But nowadays, women have the freedom to actually change their actual body to fit the fashions! He gave the example of the "yoga body" being in fashion, so women can presumably just spend hours doing yoga every day to change their identity, instead of the inconvenience of having to wear foundation garments.

I was thinking "this guy has spent too long being surrounded by women who are either trophy wives, dancers or actresses".


Posted by: CN | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 11:32 AM
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I think it is extremely likely that they are wearing historically accurate foundation garments.

I can see the fetish sites will have new fodder.


Posted by: Tassled Loafered Leech | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 11:32 AM
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I can see the fetish sites will have new fodder.

TLL, I never would have guessed you were naive enough to believe this `new'.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 11:38 AM
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the


Posted by: read | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 11:39 AM
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The fashion faux pas that causes me the most angst is poky nipples. Especially in those paradoxical situations where I'm presenting, and thus moving around and too warm to wear a cardigan, yet the AC is turned up so much that my skin is still responding.


Posted by: Ladybird Johnson | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 11:39 AM
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this guy has spent too long being surrounded by women who are either trophy wives, dancers or actresses

Yeah, but who hasn't?


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 11:40 AM
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Dita von Teese will have a new lease on life, anyway.

Ms. Johnson, does that really count as a faux pas?


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 11:40 AM
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200: It also became clear a couple of seasons in that the writers had built the show's appeal around the revelation of a grand mystery, but in fact had absolutely no clue where they were going with that. Lost syndrome.


Posted by: DS | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 11:41 AM
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Isn't that what the molded-cup bra is for? I don't like them myself, but as a way to hide your nipples, they work great.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 11:42 AM
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216: That, and pasties.

I'm with ben though. Perhaps not if they're actually emerging from the fabric of your shirt.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 11:43 AM
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215: Lost absolutely hands down wins the prize for most promising premise most egregiously fucked up. I was so into that show right up until the Others showed up, at which point I completely lost interest. Could have been great, but they barely even attained mediocrity.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 11:44 AM
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Ben, maybe BL and I get along so well because we bond over our insecurities?

I thought I heard that the redhead on Mad Men wears padded garments to get that curvy period look, but that could be wrong.


Posted by: Amber | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 11:46 AM
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I thought I heard that the redhead on Mad Men wears padded garments to get that curvy period look, but that could be wrong.

She looked plenty curvy in firefly...


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 11:47 AM
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Photographs of the redhead on Mad Men not in Mad Men costume suggest that she's plenty curvy as is, though perhaps she doesn't have precisely those curves.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 11:47 AM
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I haven't watched the show, but if they're being accurate to the period, they're all girdled to within an inch of their lives. Maybe padding, although you can get a curvy look by artificially nipping the waist as well.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 11:48 AM
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Isn't that what the molded-cup bra is for?

I've never found one that I find supportive. I saved the inserts that came with a bathing suit, and put them inside my bras, which works well enough. Mostly I was very traumatized by this in high school, (not that anyone said anything. Just my fears and anxieties.) and still resent the whole problem.


Posted by: Ladybird Johnson | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 11:49 AM
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For someone who hasn't had a television since the 80's, I'm apparently not missing too much.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 11:49 AM
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IANBPHD, but Wacoal rocks, and makes molded cup bras.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 11:50 AM
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and still resent the whole problem.

EMBRACE YOUR NIPPLES, LADIES.


Posted by: OPINIONATED GRANDMA | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 11:51 AM
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Congratulations, soup biscuit.


Posted by: CN | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 11:51 AM
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The fashion faux pas that causes me the most angst is poky nipples.

There is a reason for the air conditioning set to 65


Posted by: Lyndon Baines Johnson | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 11:52 AM
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If you ask me Heather Renée Sweet is a perfectly good porn star name. Why did she go and change it?

Along with everything else I offer a Dress for Failure seminar. You'll probably fail anyway, and if you do, you're going to die regretting all the time and money you wasted on outfits you didn't even like.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 11:53 AM
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227: for what? I've seen a surprising number of these shows (at least an episode or two). I guess I *am* really out of touch with commercials, though.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 11:53 AM
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I've found it difficult to get a bra without molded cups, which I very much dislike.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 11:55 AM
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229: John, my guess is that "Heather Renee Sweet" would have cramped her style by forcing her to do a faux-innocent act.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 11:56 AM
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I will take the bus down to New York if oudemia and Jackmormon will go shopping with me.


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 11:58 AM
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If you ask me Heather Renée Sweet is a perfectly good porn star name.

Finally! A reasonable opening for an observation I've wanted to make for some days now: has anyone else noticed that McCain's spokesman is named "Tucker Bounds," which is perhaps the most ridiculously porny WASP name I've heard for some time.

Palin apparently ALSO has a "Tucker" something on her senior advisary staff. That ticket has reached its stupid name limit and then some.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 11:58 AM
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233.---Oh hey, sure. I know where all the good Goodwills are.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 11:59 AM
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If only that Tony Fratto guy's name was Tucker Fratto.


Posted by: CN | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 12:00 PM
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JM, what exactly is a "reasonable opening"? It sounds sort of kinky, actually.

Tucker Carlson probably destroyed that name, along with the bow toe.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 12:01 PM
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219, 220, 221: The actress who plays Joan is, in the parlance of their times, built like a brick shithouse. Mighty mighty.

Behold. In fact, so va-va-voom is she, that she almost looks like a pinhead in that pic.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 12:02 PM
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wtf is a bow toe?


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 12:03 PM
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238: holy wow. I'd only seen head-on photos of her in that dress before.

Meanwhile, the actress who plays, uh, the Lady Copywriter looks like a big ol' sourpuss in that photo.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 12:05 PM
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it's a dyslexic bow tie.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 12:05 PM
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A bow toe is a toe that's tied like your shoelaces.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 12:05 PM
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Scurrilous rumor debunked: Hendricks denies wearing padding.


Posted by: Amber | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 12:06 PM
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225: Le Mystere too. Those are generally aimed at fuller figured women. My boyfriend makes fun of me when I wear mine though.


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 12:07 PM
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That article also reveals that she wears "those authentic '60's undergarments".


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 12:08 PM
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"Bow toe" is my best typo ever, that's what it is.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 12:10 PM
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238.---Yes indeed. My sister's figure is a bit like that, though more short and square and I'll-kick-your-ass-into-next-Tuesday. I've always thought of her when I hear that song.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 12:13 PM
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240.2: It's the body thetans.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 12:15 PM
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238: The kickass sister is Alameida's, IIRC. Or is it Megan's?


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 12:15 PM
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Alameida's sister has historically kicked ass.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 12:16 PM
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Or maybe I should say "kicked historical ass".


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 12:17 PM
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It also became clear a couple of seasons in that the writers had built the show's appeal around the revelation of a grand mystery, but in fact had absolutely no clue where they were going with that.

Sometimes I enjoy seeing really talented writers work themselves into a corner and then artfully get back out again. You get double narrative tension: how will the characters resolve this dilemma plus how will the writers resolve this dilemma.

You can see the same thing happen in improvised music too. I saw Patricia Barber at the Green Mill once when her band just totally got lost in the improvisation, to the extent that one guy was a full beat off of every one else. The drummer came in with a thwack on one beat to remind everyone else where it was, and they quickly managed to reorganize themselves. It was fun to see.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 12:17 PM
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Sometimes I enjoy seeing really talented writers work themselves into a corner and then artfully get back out again.

Granted. Though I don't think the "Final Five" storyline really counts as an example of this.

Also, little things have started to nag at me. Like, how Cylon "skinjobs" are so physiologically identical to humans as to be virtually indistinguishable... then, where do they get all that super-strength from?

I have to admit I do still tune in for Baltar -- who through it all has a pretty brilliant character arc and does provide plenty of comedy, pace whomever it was that said the show is humourless above (though it is still pretty overwhelmingly grim).


Posted by: DS | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 12:26 PM
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253. Mitochlorians?


Posted by: md 20/400 | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 12:27 PM
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I have a fondness in my heart for the original Cylons. "By your command" is exactly what a robot should say.


Posted by: Tassled Loafered Leech | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 12:28 PM
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seeing really talented writers...

The real problem is that there aren't nearly enough of those to go around.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 12:35 PM
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men's clothes are just an awful lot warmer than womens, regardless of the season

Not just men's/women's, it starts younger than that. E.g. children's pants (underwear): girls' are made of thin cotton, with thin, often uncovered, elastic; boys' are thicker cotton, sturdier, with thick elastic covered by the soft thick cotton. Kids' T-shirts, again, ridiculously different - girls' T-shirts are way skimpier than boys', and are generally made of far far flimsier material.


Posted by: asilon | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 12:52 PM
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254: Or maybe they drink Brawnndo, the Thirst Mutilator. It's got electrolytes, after all.

257: girls' T-shirts are way skimpier than boys', and are generally made of far far flimsier material.

Clearly a nod to girls' superior toughness WRT to the elements; eminently feminist!


Posted by: DS | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 1:07 PM
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The fashion faux pas that causes me the most angst is poky nipples.

Because these are a reflex (aren't they?) I don't blame people for them. I can understand wanting to maintain a professional presentation though.

One thing that does bug me is when someone wears one of those tube tops (or maybe strapless tops?) and has to be hitching it up every few minutes. That can be distracting and annoying. I think this is worse than poky nipples. Still, being a guy I keep my mouth shut cause I think in general guys have things easier in the fashion department.


Posted by: Tripp | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 1:14 PM
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That can be distracting...

Not as distracting as having it slip too low.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 1:29 PM
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I'm going to head out on a limb here and propose that Tube Tops Are Not Acceptable Professional Clothing.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 1:31 PM
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The fashion faux pas that causes me the most angst is poky nipples.

Poky nipples make me happy, like the laughter of children and free tacos.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 1:34 PM
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I find the laughter of free tacos disturbing, and encourage their conversion into incarcerated tacos.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 1:39 PM
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FREE THE TACOS!


Posted by: OPINIONATED DINER | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 1:43 PM
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261: Hmmmm. What if it's a sparkly tubetop?


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 1:48 PM
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It also became clear a couple of seasons in that the writers had built the show's appeal around the revelation of a grand mystery, but in fact had absolutely no clue where they were going with that.

I'm at the end of Season 2, so haven't found it spinning out of control. But this is surprising. Jane Espenson learned at the foot of the master, Joss Whedon, at least as far as long-term story arc planning. She's not the show-runner, but you'd think the show would have some cousin-level mitochlorians because of her.


Posted by: Wrongshore | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 1:53 PM
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Regarding poky nipples and workplace rules, can we agree to use the politically correct and work safe term "puppy dog noses" from now on?

Puppy dog noses make me glad to be alive.


Posted by: Tripp | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 2:19 PM
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can we agree to use the politically correct and work safe term ...

No.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 2:21 PM
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Wow, that actually made my skin crawl.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 2:23 PM
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What if it's a sparkly tubetop?

I suppose that rules were made to be broken?


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 2:24 PM
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269: I hear that , sister. Yikes.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 2:24 PM
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267: crab eyes


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 2:55 PM
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269 to 265.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 2:59 PM
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I don't see how "puppy dog noses" even makes sense.


Posted by: DS | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 3:06 PM
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I don't see how "puppy dog noses" even makes sense.


Posted by: DS | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 3:06 PM
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wet?


Posted by: jms | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 3:08 PM
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276: But the nipples surely needn't be wet to be poky?

I'm flashing back to the "bag of... sand..." line from The 40-Year-Old Virgin.


Posted by: DS | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 3:10 PM
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I don't see how "puppy dog noses" even makes sense.

It doesn't. Does that help?


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 3:14 PM
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I'm flashing back to the "bag of... sand..." line from The 40-Year-Old Virgin.

They're cold and wet?


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 3:31 PM
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278: Yup!

279: Similarly nondescriptive.


Posted by: DS | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 3:35 PM
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Kids' T-shirts, again, ridiculously different - girls' T-shirts are way skimpier than boys', and are generally made of far far flimsier material.

Which, often enough, is perfectly good reason to buy "boys'" t-shirts for girls.


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 3:45 PM
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Most of my work tops are more akin to t-shirts than to blouses/shirts. I hate clothes that are supposed to be tucked.

I think in the Philippines there's a type of formal men's shirt that's meant to be worn without any jacket. Sounds like the practical option for dressed-up menswear in a hot summer.


Posted by: emir | Link to this comment | 09-24-08 5:49 PM
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soup biscuit,

I don't see how "puppy dog noses" even makes sense.

It doesn't.

Yes it does. It is poetry ala George Carlin, although Carlin himself didn't come up with this one, my pals and I did.

In my day we wasted our college years by dreaming up beautiful and poetic euphemisms for, ahem, biological functions.

These days language is all about pimps and hos and F this and Dirty Sanchez that. I blame the internet.


Posted by: Tripp | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 9:03 AM
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up beautiful and poetic euphemisms for ...

Got any for us?


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 09-26-08 9:12 AM
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